Vision Forum Ministries President Doug Phillips Resigns Due to Infidelilty

"There has been serious sin in my life for which God has graciously brought me to repentance. I have confessed my sin to my wife and family, my local church, and the board of Vision Forum Ministries.  I engaged in a lengthy, inappropriate relationship with a woman. While we did not “know” each other in a Biblical sense, it was nevertheless inappropriately romantic and affectionate."

Doug Phillips

http://www.visionforum.com/about/default.aspxWoman

The internet is abuzz with news of Doug Phillips' resignation from Vision Forum Ministries.  Our investigation into Phillips began over five years ago (before we launched TWW).  Dee and I were greatly concerned about the harm that was being done within the patriarchy movement, and whenever we would do research Doug Phillips' name would usually show up. 

I was particularly interested in investigating him because of my stint of homeschooling.  In the mid 1990s I began teaching my young daughters at home, and I attended our state homeschooling conference three years in a row.  The last year I went (1998), Doug Phillips was the keynote speaker.  I had never heard of him, but I remember his message being patriotic and pro-family, which I found extremely appealing.  It was later that same year that Doug Phillips began Vision Forum, Inc. — not to be confused with Vision Forum Ministries, which was subsequently established.

The About Vision Forum page states:

While the family is under attack from every side today, God's sufficient Word provides clear direction and hope to rebuild the family, and it is our goal at Vision Forum to promote courageous fatherhood, noble motherhood, virtuous boyhood and girlhood through vision-casting discipleship tools that teach, equip, and inspire. Whether you are a father who desires to better lead your family, a homeschooling mother who is looking for Biblically-based curriculum choices, or a grandparent, child or young person who desires encouragement in your Christian walk, we have something for you.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with homeschooling, the bookstores at the annual conferences are BIG BUSINESS.  Vendors of homeschooling curriculums and other items rent space and set up shop for several days.  Lots and lots of books and merchandise are purchased by homeschooling families.  Some of the vendors also have catalog businesses, like that of Vision Forum, so homeschooling families can purchase items throughout the year.  I used to receive the Vision Forum catalog in the mail on a regular basis, even after I stopped homeschooling.  With the internet age, these vendors can market their merchandise online.  Here is the Vision Forum, Inc. website.  This is perhaps one of the primary ways that Phillips has been supporting his family for the last fifteen years.  

With that background information out of the way, we want to share our concerns about Doug Phillips' sudden announcement (included in its entirety at the end of the post).  Ever since we heard the news, we have been experiencing the Wartburg Tingle, which we liken to our sixth sense. 

Why has Doug Phillips extricated himself from Vision Forum Ministries at this moment in time?  We are suspicious that there may be so much more © to this story. 

Here are our questions / concerns in the wake of this revelation. 

1.  Is the announcement subterfuge?

Phillips wants us to believe this is just an emotional affair – move along, nothing to see here –  but many are not buying it, including your glam blog queens.  This could have been handled quietly; yet Phillips chose to reveal his sin to a watching world.   Why?

2.  Why are there so many stay-at home daughters in this movement who never seem to get married?

Doug Phillips has been extremely vocal about young marriages and quiverful, both of which he strongly endorses; however, there are a number of young women in this movement who are not marrying…  That seems extremely odd…  Phillips and his ilk believe that fathers are supposed to help their daughters find husbands; however, it appears their standards may be too high.  For example, Geoffrey Botkin has two beautiful daughters who are well into their twenties.  They wrote a book when they were teenagers called So Much More which we discussed here.  If young marriages are so strongly advised, then why are there so many young women whose daddies never seem to find them husbands?  The father/daughter relationship appears to be extremely significant in the Vision Forum crowd, as evidenced by the annual Father/Daughter retreat.  Here is the promo clip from two years ago.  Pay close attention to some creepy pictures…

Daughters shaving daddies?   WHO DOES THAT???  What's more concerning is that some well-known Christian leaders spoke at that conference – namely Voddie Baucham, Scott Brown (head of the National Center for Family Integrated Churches), and Geoffrey Botkin and his two daughters who authored So Much More. 

3.    Doug Phillips / Vision Forum are not as fringe as you might expect.  Here's why…

Over the years, Doug Phillips has assembled quite a collection of friends and supporters throughout Christendom.  They include: 

Having all these Christian friends certainly makes Doug Phillips appear to be above reproach.

4.  Did concerns (financial and otherwise) about the upcoming SAICFF precipitate Phillips' announcement?

The San Antonio Independent Christian Film Festival was started by Doug Phillips in 2004 (link).  It has been held almost every year since 2005.  In recent days, the 2014 festival was postponed, according to the SAICFF website.  Here is the Press Release put out nine days before Doug Phillips resignation from Vision Forum Ministries:

Update Oct. 21, 2013: The Christian Filmmakers Academy and SAICFF for 2014 have been postponed. Due in part to financial concerns and for other reasons, the Board of Vision Forum Ministries is looking to bring greater accountability to our practices and events, and therefore is allowing more time before launching this significant event once again. A relevant issue to address is that though the 2012 SAICFF was a great spiritual victory, lacking the necessary sponsorships it resulted in a significant financial loss. Vision Forum Ministries has maintained a large loss at this event for several years now, but the reality is that a ministry of our size cannot sustain this under the present model.

We believe the Christian Filmmakers Academy and the SAICFF are best executed in conjunction with each other, and that more time is needed to raise and put funds in order to maintain the previous level of excellence. Therefore, both events for 2014 are postponed with the anticipation of opening them again in 2015. Any funds paid in advance for film submissions, Academy participation or SAICFF entree fees will be refunded.

We suspect that this shocking press release had something to do with Doug Phillips' October 30th announcement, and we will continue to 'follow the money' …

Meanwhile, over at Vision Forum, Inc. , it's 'business as usual'.   While Doug Phillips may have resigned as president of Vision Forum Ministries, he appears to still be in charge at Vision Forum, Inc.  When the news broke,we contacted the headquarters of Vision Forum, Inc. to get a statement about what is going on with its founder.  They have not returned our phone call. 

One of the individuals who has weighed in about Phillips is Jennifer Epstein, whose blog is called Jen's Gems.  Yesterday she wrote a post in response to Doug Phillips' resignation, and here is a pertinent excerpt:

I was surprised, I suppose naively so, to begin to hear privately from person after person after person who told me stories of abuse by Doug Phillips and how he had threatened to harm their families, their career, and their church life if they did not keep quiet about what had taken place.  Any anecdote or story told within those circles was immediately put into the “gossip” category and was severely dealt with.  Legal means were often employed to keep people quiet.  I heard many stories of men “dressed in black,” carrying pieces (or so I was told), who used mafia-like techniques to make sure any and all stories involving Doug Phillips in any way other than idolizing him were decidedly dealt with, quickly and severely.

And so, when I was threatened with the same types of actions, as I realized how many people cowered in fear for their lives and their families’ lives, I stood up against such tyranny and abuse and fought for freedom from ecclesiastical terror.  Doug Phillips and his cohorts put up multiple websites about me, dedicated solely to attacking my family and me.  Many were outright lies; some were twisted truths, while others were simply about airing my personal “sins” for the whole world to see.  While that was not enough to stop me from telling my story about Doug Phillips truthfully and respectfully, it was enough to stop nearly everyone else from considering telling their stories publicly as well.  As I promised them all so many years ago, I will keep their secrets secret, but it was just all the more reason for me to proclaim to the world that Doug Phillips does not practice what he preaches.  And there is a time and a place to warn people against impending danger.

As you might imagine, we have heard from some who have understandably keep their mouths shut about Doug Phillips due to FEAR.  Jen Epstein in the living example of why people were too scared to talk about serious problems involving Phillips.  If you are not familiar with Jen Epstein, you can begin reading her story here

Please keep those who have been hurt in your prayers.   Hopefully, some will now have the courage to come forward to share their own stories. 

Finally, here is  Doug Phillips' Letter of Resignation just as it appeared on the Vision Forum website.


Statement of Resignation

by Douglas Phillips, Esq., October 30, 2013

With thanksgiving to God for His mercy and love, I have stepped down from the office of president at Vision Forum Ministries and have discontinued my speaking responsibilities. 

There has been serious sin in my life for which God has graciously brought me to repentance. I have confessed my sin to my wife and family, my local church, and the board of Vision Forum Ministries.  I engaged in a lengthy, inappropriate relationship with a woman. While we did not “know” each other in a Biblical sense, it was nevertheless inappropriately romantic and affectionate. 

There are no words to describe the magnitude of shame I feel, or grief from the injury I caused my beloved bride and children, both of whom have responded to my repentance with what seems a supernatural love and forgiveness. I thought too highly of myself and behaved without proper accountability. I have acted grievously before the Lord, in a destructive manner hypocritical of life messages I hold dear, inappropriate for a leader, abusive of the trust that I was given, and hurtful to family and friends. My church leadership came alongside me with love and admonition, providing counsel, strong direction and accountability. Where I have directly wronged others, I confessed and repented. I am still in the process of trying to seek reconciliation privately with people I have injured, and to be aware of ways in which my own selfishness has hurt family and friends. I am most sensitive to the fact that my actions have dishonored the living God and been shameful to the name of Jesus Christ, my only hope and Savior.

This is a time when my repentance needs to be proven, and I need to lead a quiet life focusing on my family and serving as a foot soldier, not a ministry leader. Though I am broken over my failures, I am grateful to be able to spend more time with my family, nurturing my wife and children and preparing my older sons and daughters for life. So, for these reasons I want to let my friends know that I have stepped down as a board member and as president of Vision Forum Ministries. The Board will be making provision for the management of the ministry during this time. To the friends of this ministry, I ask for your forgiveness, and hope that you will pray for the Phillips family at this time, and for the men who will be responsible for shepherding the work of Vision Forum Ministries in the future.

Doug Phillips


Lydia's Corner:   Job 37:1-39:30   2 Corinthians 4:13-5:10   Psalm 44:9-26   Proverbs 22:13

Comments

Vision Forum Ministries President Doug Phillips Resigns Due to Infidelilty — 317 Comments

  1. Ah – you caught the Wilson typo, too. The funny thing about that particular article is that he did not link to the official VF website. He linked to my blog post which had a lot of comments from a very diverse crowd from Patriarchy defenders to unbelievers.

    But if you read his post, he talks disparagingly about folks expressing glee about Phillips’ news. In general, I’ve seen very few people who have expressed glee – – maybe one or two. However, if people are happy, perhaps they are happy that truth is exposed. That is something to rejoice about – – especially when sin has been hidden for years and lives were affected.

    Later, in the comments, Wilson said that if someone chortled over recent news of Doug Phillips, they are enemies of the Lord. No, Mr. Wilson, I’m pretty sure God is friends with those who are happy that sin is finally exposed.

    But it’s always an interesting thing that happens when one of us female bloggers points some light on a problem – – – other defenders from the same camp start dissing on us. It is a little coincidental that I recently (October 28) did a post on Wilson in which he attempted to give advice on homemade porn for married couples who are separated by distance. Keep in mind, Wilson is the same guy who wrote a book talking about roles of husbands and wives during sex: husbands as planting, colonizing, conquering and women accepting, receiving, submitting . (http://goo.gl/kcyYHb)

    Either way you look at it, Wilson is a defender of Phillips and Patriarchy just as Mohler defends Mahaney’s brand of Neo-Calvinism theology. If you mess with another guy’s BFF’s theology or ideology, or their $$ trail, be ready for attacks.

  2. 3. Doug Phillips / Vision Forum are not as fringe as you might expect. Here’s why… [list of Phillips’ well-known friends /connections]

    I think he’s also associates with actor Kirk Cameron, who hosts a weekly show on TBN with Ray Comfort. (Or, they’ve at least met a time or two. I don’t know if they’re close.)

    Kirk Cameron complementarianism and quiverful patriarchy, by Jocelyn Andersen

    Yes, the little girls shaving their fathers in the video was a little icky. The whole video, from the visuals to the sappy backing music, was too girly and saccharine sweet for my tastes.

    If you’re a dad who wants to “build memories with his daughter,” (especially one who’s under 14 / 15 years of age), you don’t have to go on a retreat to a butterfly garden. You can take her to a movie, play a game with her at home, or read a bed time story to her. Just spend time with her.

  3. While Doug Phillips may have resigned as president of Vision Forum Ministries, he appears to still be in charge at Vision Forum, Inc.

    Aha…THAT is an important piece of information, isn't it? Vision Forum Inc. is the moneymaking end of the operation, if I'm not mistaken. So the general public will think he has stepped back completely to "heal," when in reality he'll still be pulling all the strings behind the curtain.

    the Board of Vision Forum Ministries is looking to bring greater accountability to our practices and events

    (Hester falls off her chair crying in a fit of hysterical laughter)

    We believe the Christian Filmmakers Academy and the SAICFF are best executed in conjunction with each other, and that more time is needed to raise and put funds in order to maintain the previous level of excellence.

    OH NO. A drop in quality? But…but…NO! You mean they're going to fall from the previous level of sheer mind-blowing amazingness found in their previous films? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! /sarcasm/

  4. Great analysis, Deb. Lots to chew on here. If other blogs & message boards are any indication, you’re likely in for a lotta trolls accusing you of “gossiping” or “casting stones”. But you probably knew that already, didn’t you? 😉

    Daisy wrote:

    You can take her to a movie, play a game with her at home, or read a bed time story to her. Just spend time with her.

    Best of all, spend time with her doing something that she enjoys. Not trying to manipulate her into what you think she should enjoy. What a novel idea.

  5. This is looking a lot like the CJ Mahaney ‘leave of absence’ – disappear from the scene for a while and wait for the storm to blow over (I wonder if Doug Phillips, Esq. has a Dever-like friend whose skirts he can hide behind during that time).

    Bring on the Snarknado!

    Seriously, this move by Doug Phillips, Esq. is looking more and more like a cynical one. Cast yourself as a ‘moral leader’, get caught doing something immoral, write a few words claiming ‘repentance’, head to the bunker for a bit until the storm passes, come out when the coast is clear claiming to be a ‘new’ man for it, then go on being the same old, same old as if nothing had happened.

    This works especially well in evangelical circles where followers are all too quick to forgive and forget the moral failings of their beloved leaders and dismiss criticism by telling critics they are being ‘un-Christian’ and telling them to ‘remove the log from their own eyes’.

    Sorry, but I consider that to be an unbiblical blindness. the Bible also tells us to beware of false prophets and it seems the only way to remove the scales from many eyes is a healthy dose of well-aimed mock and ridicule directed at the hypocrisy of their pompous, narcissistic leaders preaching a creepy false gospel of control and oppression. Reasoned debate doesn’t seem to work in this environment – guys like this are sorely in need of a huge dose of humility and snark seems to be the only way bring them down off their pedestal so that they can be seen for what they really are.

    Repentance must come before forgiveness. Just saying you have repented doesn’t make it so. God doesn’t want to just HEAR repentance, he wants to SEE repentance – have you really changed your life so that love of God and love of neighbor (which, BTW, excludes hanky-panky with said neighbor) is paramount in your life? Color me cynical, but I don’t see that happening with Doug Phillips, Esq., but time will tell. In the meantime, people really need to hold off on the hero worship and look at the reality of the situation.

  6. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Best of all, spend time with her doing something that she enjoys. Not trying to manipulate her into what you think she should enjoy. What a novel idea.

    Serving in Japan, you touched on something important with that comment. I live in the heart of East Texas and Vision Forum and homeschooling are a big deal here. I love to do crafts so I go to my local craft store about once a week. I always see homeschooling families in there, daughters in tow, being told to pick out fabric so they can learn how to make an apron – it's what good little girls are supposed to do. In other words, the children aren't even allowed to find their own interests but rather must follow a prescribed formula. I would have been miserable in that program. I didn't learn how to use a sewing machine until this year because I had no desire to and my mom was not about to force me. The children have become mini robots, clones of each other with no unique personalities allowed. I do not want to come across as anti-home school; I think it is a wonderful option when done so with the intention of helping children develop to their fullest potential as individuals.

  7. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Great analysis, Deb. Lots to chew on here. If other blogs & message boards are any indication, you’re likely in for a lotta trolls accusing you of “gossiping” or “casting stones”. But you probably knew that already, didn’t you? Daisy wrote: You can take her to a movie, play a game with her at home, or read a bed time story to her. Just spend time with her. Best of all, spend time with her doing something that she enjoys. Not trying to manipulate her into what you think she should enjoy. What a novel idea.

    BRING.IT.ON. We can add the names they call us under our heading "What the world is saying about The Wartburg Watch". In all seriousness, we can handle it. 🙂

  8. @ JeffT:

    We are in communication with some folks to whom Doug Phillips owes an apology. So far nothing has happened along those lines.   We will continue to monitor the situation.

  9. @ Mandy:

    What a sad commentary. We know you're not bashing homeschooling in general.

    I have known some wonderful families that homeschooled (and, of course, I was one of those who taught my children at home – for four years).

  10. @ Virginia Knowles: I am so sorry. 🙁 I got the VF catalogs in the mail for a long period of time – maybe 12 years – and never ordered anything. Now I'm counting my blessings.

  11. While the family is under attack from every side today, God’s sufficient Word provides clear direction and hope to rebuild the family, and it is our goal at Vision Forum to promote courageous fatherhood, noble motherhood, virtuous boyhood and girlhood through vision-casting discipleship tools that teach, equip, and inspire. Whether you are a father who desires to better lead your family, a homeschooling mother who is looking for Biblically-based curriculum choices, or a grandparent, child or young person who desires encouragement in your Christian walk, we have something for you.

    You know, when you read that in light of this:

    I was surprised, I suppose naively so, to begin to hear privately from person after person after person who told me stories of abuse by Doug Phillips and how he had threatened to harm their families, their career, and their church life if they did not keep quiet about what had taken place.

    ……

    I heard many stories of men “dressed in black,” carrying pieces (or so I was told), who used mafia-like techniques to make sure any and all stories involving Doug Phillips in any way other than idolizing him were decidedly dealt with, quickly and severely.

    And so, when I was threatened with the same types of actions, as I realized how many people cowered in fear for their lives and their families’ lives, I stood up against such tyranny and abuse and fought for freedom from ecclesiastical terror.

    It kinda takes on a whole new interpretation. I have to wonder, what would their vision of a restored America look actually look like? What would their “vision” of a “rebuilt” family look like?

  12. Deb, I did order from VF on numerous occasions. I was especially excited when the Botkin daughters’ book So Much More came out. I knew the Botkins well about 25 years ago. Geoff was our home group leader. Vickie was my mentor, a very sweet lady. She taught me to quilt. I have a picture of Vickie and me, both very pregnant — she with her younger daughter (co-author of SMM) and me with my oldest daughter. I gave their book a positive review and it was published on the girls’ web site, but later I wrote and asked them to remove it as I could no longer endorse it. I’m happy to say my five adult daughters have gotten their education and moved along well in life, and I trust the younger ones (boys and girls) will too!

  13. @ formerly anonymous:

    The Dominionists (Reconstructionists) definitely come to mind…

    I didn't include the paragraph on the VF website that preceded the one you quoted (While the family is under attack from every side today…)

    Here it is:

    Every age faces crises that may prove defining to it. One of the crisis which history may record as defining our generation is the systematic annihilation of the Biblical family. The family was the first institution created by God and blessed by Christ during His earthly ministry. It is God's primary vehicle for communicating covenant promises to the next generation. It is the basic agency of dominion on earth.

    Yep, these guys want to take dominion, claiming they are carrying out God's orders.

  14. Deb wrote:

    @ formerly anonymous:

    The Dominionists (Reconstructionists) definitely come to mind…

    I didn’t include the paragraph that preceded the one you quoted (While the family is under attack from every side today…)

    Here it is:

    Every age faces crises that may prove defining to it. One of the crisis which history may record as defining our generation is the systematic annihilation of the Biblical family. The family was the first institution created by God and blessed by Christ during His earthly ministry. It is God’s primary vehicle for communicating covenant promises to the next generation. It is the basic agency of dominion on earth.

    Yep, these guys want to take dominion, claiming they are carrying out God’s orders.

    Yep, these guys want to take dominion, claiming they are carrying out God’s orders.

    Yes. And what does that look like for those who are under it? Is it the bright shining glorious future they portray, or does it look more like what Jen (and by her account many others also) describes?

    Inquiring — and deeply concerned — minds want to know.

  15. @ formerly anonymous:

    God's plan will not be thwarted, and I believe that's exactly what these dominionists are doing – thwarting God's plan.

    I trust our Sovereign God and will be extremely interested in seeing what happens to this crowd in the coming years.

  16. Virginia Knowles wrote:

    I just posted my thoughts here http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2013/11/vision-forum-and-friends-turn-your-eyes.html

    I am a mother of 10 who home schooled for over 20 years and used to buy into all of this.

     

    Virginia, I enjoyed your post so much that I'm including most of it here for our readers.  Thanks for speaking out!

    Dear friends,

    Yesterday, the Christian blogosphere was abuzz with the news that Doug Phillips, founder of Vision Forum, had stepped down from his ministry responsibilities due to a lengthy inappropriate romantic relationship with a woman other than his wife.  The news saddens me, but doubly so because this ministry and others associated with it had set themselves as the standard of how to have "godly Christian families."  Unfortunately, because of spiritual abuse, legalism, racism and chauvinism at the core, they have ended up destroying many of the families they sought to instruct.  It is true that I used to admire them and buy their books.  I got sucked in out of a desire to do things right in my family. Since then, I've had to dig out of the damage that I caused or allowed in my ignorance. I have already apologized to my own children, but to others whom I led into this mindset through my encouragements and endorsements, my sincerest apologies are due. 

    And now, years later, what a tragic blow to the family of one of Vision Forum's own leaders. My heartfelt prayers are with them, especially his wife and children.

    As I lay in bed in the dark and quiet of the morning, I thought about what went wrong.  I couldn't help but wonder if Vision Forum lost its focus — if they put their vision on the wrong thing.

    You see, when it's all about….

    • Roles and rules instead of love and liberty
    • The system instead of the Savior
    • Following Pharisees instead of following Fairest Lord Jesus
    • Controlling others instead of controlling yourself
    • The earthly father instead of the Heavenly Father
    • Silencing and shaming instead of giving voice to the victims
    • Intimidation instead of inspiration
    • Authoritarian dogma instead of authentic dignity

    … then it's time to "Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful face.  And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace."

    I'll be checking out the links you provided at the end of your post, too.

  17. formerly anonymous wrote:

    courageous fatherhood, noble motherhood, virtuous boyhood and girlhood

    Thanks for pointing out that quote.

    Did nobody think to ask this obviously controlling manipulator why, exactly, would it be “courageous” for a father to let some other man tell him what to do in his own house? Why would it be “noble” for a mother to fail to protect her children against abuse? Even animals do that. Why would ignorance and naiveté be seen as virtuous for either boys or girls? That is not virtue, it is crippling victimization.

    If one sees the world as so dangerous that the adults must isolate themselves from it, why on earth would those same people then deny their own children the tools with which they might defend themselves against this perceived danger? What has happened to common sense? Are people so blind that they have eyes to see but do not see. Wait! Where have I heard that before?

    I’ll tell you what I think. It is not about courage or nobility or virtue. It is about some sort of perverse dominance/submission life style variant played under the name of religion in which the “leaders” use fear and intimidation on the unwary to the destruction of all the players of the game. Yes, all. The “leaders” end up trapped in their own destructive behavior, and the “unwary” end up hurt and bleeding and some even destroyed.

    That segment of the church who are not fooled by this need to speak up regardless of what they are accused of being or doing. (I need to send the TWW ladies some flowers or something.) And all the people who have been hurt who stand up and fight back… now there is courage and nobility and virtue.

  18. @ formerly anonymous:

    It’s no bright future…

    Simply a holy thought police theocratic tyranny. If you want to get a taste of what it would look like read the history of the New England puritans, who coincidentally are almost worshipped by members of this sect.

    ——-

    When I read this resignation I too scoffed at “emotional affair”, but did some research and it’s actually the most common type of affair, though it normally gets physical as time goes on.

    But as he claims this was a long term affair, this does seem to have Bill Clinton “I did not have sex with that woman” vibe. We shall see.

    I feel sad for his wife and children. As for him I don’t care. He set himself up as a paragon of righteousness and as normally happens has been proven the hypocrite.

  19. Deb wrote:

    We are in communication with some folks to whom Doug Phillips owes an apology. So far nothing has happened along those lines.  

    A sincere apology to these people would be a true sign of repentance, although I’m not holding my breath. Doug Phillips, Esq.’s defenders need to be reminded of this at every turn when they are so quick to claim he’s repented and entitled to forgiveness.

  20. Nancy wrote:

    (I need to send the TWW ladies some flowers or something.)

    Thanks for your kindness. Flowers are not necessary, but we do ask that you pray for us as we seek to glorify God through our investigative endeavors.

  21. @ JeffT:

    Agreed! Thank God for the internet and modern day communication tools which enable us to monitor whether Doug is truly repentant. If he is, he will seek out those he has offended and ask for their forgiveness. We're holding his feet to the fire.

  22. Deb wrote:

    Nancy wrote:
    (I need to send the TWW ladies some flowers or something.)
    Thanks for your kindness. Flowers are not necessary

    Cheetos, we need Cheetos!

  23. Late last night and early this morning there was an interesting conversation on my blog among 3 attorneys regarding Phillips’ use of “Esq.” Very funny.

  24. We are in communication with some folks to whom Doug Phillips owes an apology. So far nothing has happened along those lines.

    He owes an apology to the whole culture he helped create. That’s not going to happen unless he divorces himself from the Dominion/Reconstructionist theology that perpetuates all of this nonsense.

    Oh boy, haters gonna hate me now.

  25. You see, when it’s all about….

    Roles and rules instead of love and liberty
    The system instead of the Savior
    Following Pharisees instead of following Fairest Lord Jesus
    Controlling others instead of controlling yourself
    The earthly father instead of the Heavenly Father
    Silencing and shaming instead of giving voice to the victims
    Intimidation instead of inspiration
    Authoritarian dogma instead of authentic dignity

    … then it’s time to “Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace.”

    Virginia: Perfectly said. This is how to measure truth from false.

  26. Mandy wrote:

    I would have been miserable in that program.

    Honestly, I probably would have been wretched, too. I can’t imaging there would have been any room for me to enjoy Sesame Street (too “liberal”) or Transformers (too “worldly”) or modern fantasy (the dreaded “occult”). I can mow a lawn just fine, but I’ve never been into manly-man outdoors stuff, or considered myself an authoritative leader.

    I’m sooooo grateful that my folks let me find my own path, without driving me into any religion or career choice. If they had tried to force me into a patriarchy role, I’d have either rebelled (alienating them in the process), or spent my whole life miserable and alone. And if I’d managed to marry someone, I’d still have been unhappy and alone, and made her miserable in the process.

    So how many childhoods have been (and are being) sacrificed for the sake of some twisted “vision” of a Holy American Empire?

  27. JustSomeGuy wrote:

    Simply a holy thought police theocratic tyranny. If you want to get a taste of what it would look like read the history of the New England puritans, who coincidentally are almost worshipped by members of this sect.

    Exactly!

  28. Anon 1 wrote:

    Seneca wrote:
    There but for the Grace of God……

    *

    I am not a better man than Doug Phillips.
    I believe you

    *
    As well you should – sadly
    *

  29. formerly anonymous wrote:

    I have to wonder, what would their vision of a restored America look actually look like?

    Oddly enough, here in Japan, Part 1 of the final “Harry Potter” movie was just shown for the first time on TV.

    SPOILER ALERT 🙂

    What you said reminded me of Voldemort’s takeover of the Ministry of Magic — and the horrifying statue he set up in its lobby.

    Vision Forum’s own PR, plus Jen Epstein’s words, bring an eerily similar picture to my mind.

    A statue of triumphant “Christians”, standing on the heads and backs of wretched unbelievers, and emblazoned with the slogan “GOD IS MIGHTY”. And for good measure, a new wing of the government dedicated to seeking and stamping out all “liberal” Christians, who would dare think of anything so blasphemous as separation of church and state.

  30. Seneca wrote:

    Anon 1 wrote:

    Seneca wrote:
    There but for the Grace of God……

    *

    I am not a better man than Doug Phillips.
    I believe you

    *
    As well you should – sadly
    *

    I know. You have no choice in the matter. Only what you refer to God’s grace keeps you from doing the same. Evidently Phillips was not privy to “God’s grace” and had no choice. I get it. Perhaps God likes you more?

  31. Julie Anne wrote:

    Oh boy, haters gonna hate me now.

    Steven Furtick!? Who let you in here dressed as Julie Anne??

    😉

    You blog queens are tough stuff. The dominionists should know better than to mess with you.

  32. JustSomeGuy wrote:

    If you want to get a taste of what it would look like read the history of the New England puritans, who coincidentally are almost worshipped by members of this sect.

    You know, let’s support them on this one. Let’s see, what sort of punishment would the Puritans dole out to Doug Phillips, Esq. for his moral lapse? The pillory or the stocks of course! As one who believes the Puritans had it right, Doug Phillips, Esq. should be perfectly willing to submit to this punishment. I’d love to have the rotten tomato franchise at that one.

  33. Whenever someone like this, or really anyone, boldly and publicly announces their own God-give repentance, it is a sure sign they are not repentant. Add into the formula that this guy minimizes his sin (“didn’t know her in the biblical sense”), and the announcement that his lucky wife and children are now going to be the targets of his “nurturing,” and you’ve got every reason to believe genuine repentance has not happened. And time will bring out the truth.

  34. Deb
    Great post. Did you notice something? On the world that Doug has created, women are the weaker sex who need to be led by the men. So, in which part if his announcement did he apologize to the woman?

  35. While nothing should be surprising these days given the sheer volume of Kool-Aid people seem to be able to drink without vomiting or going into a diabetic coma, I really do wonder how well he can come back from this.

    VF has long cultivated a legalistic, perfectionist, and programmatic approach to Christian living which is simply not conducive to the development of mercy and forgiveness. And he who lives by the law, dies by the law. Weakness and failure are not allowable options, because they threaten to expose as false and hollow the very fundamental premise of their doctrine: follow “these” rules, programs, curriculum, etc., and you will get “this” result. So rather than abandon their legalism, adherents tend to turn on fallen members “Lord of the Flies”-style.

    Also, a very great deal of VF is centered around two issues: “purity” (esp. with regards to how it leads to “God-honoring marriages”), and the promotion of the “centrality of the family”. In fact the family is a more fundamental and essential institution than the local church in patriarchal thought. VF has produced reams of written, visual, and audio material identifying every imaginable (and mostly imaginary) way you could be “compromising purity” or failing in the “duties of the patriarch”.

    So while no major scandal is easy for a leader to survive, with this particular sin DP has basically walked into the heart of his building and set off a bomb.

  36. Didn’t one of these patriarchy guys say if they had a good relationship with their young daughters it would keep them from having an affair? I don’t remember who said it but I know they said it. You don’t forget reading something crazy like that!

  37. I’m going to state the same thing I said over at Julie Anne’s blog: It’s pretentious for Phillips to use Esq. as a title. I asked another (currently non-practicing, just like me and Doug) lawyer about it and his response was (1) Phillips better watch out for the model rules of professional conduct and (2) (and I quote) “he’s a douche.” I guess in the world that Phillips wanders in, he had to give himself a title or something. *shrug*

  38. Anon 1 wrote:

    Seneca wrote:
    Anon 1 wrote:
    Seneca wrote:
    There but for the Grace of God……
    *
    I am not a better man than Doug Phillips.
    I believe you
    *
    As well you should – sadly
    *
    Perhaps God likes you more?

    No but in His amazing love He’s never turned His back on me.

  39. It saddens me that I wasn’t shocked by this announcement. It may be the “he doth protest too much, methinks” vibe given off by the Phillipses, Driscolls, etc. of the world, but the only surprising thing to me about the announcement was that it was a woman with whom he had an “emotional affair.”

    I’m grieved that it’ll probably be a year or so of lying low before it’s back to business as usual for Doug Phillips, Dche. (what that abbreviated title means is left as an exercise for the reader). But I feel most hurt for those who has been hurt by Doug’s actions, but are still trapped in this infernal system.

  40. @ Josh:

    I have spoken with some individuals who know Doug very well and who have been deeply wounded by him. I promised them that I would pray for them. Perhaps that’s all we can do at this juncture. My heart breaks for those whose lives have been ruined by this abusive organization.

  41. I have a question…So he says that he didn’t “know” her in the biblical sense, is that referring to actual intercourse only or does that mean he still could have engaged in other forms of sexual behavior without actual penetration? What does the word “know” really mean?

    If it only meaning is sexual intercourse, his “inappropriate and romantic” relationship could have been much more than an emotional affair, correct?

  42. Apologies for not having read all comments yet, but as of last night I thought of some facts and fictions (things which MIGHT be true but we don’t know).
    Fact: A friendship did develop,” Hinn said of White in Oakland on July 30. “Hear this: No immorality whatsoever. These people out there are making it sound like we had an affair. That’s a lie.” (2010)
    Fact:  “…. the greatest witness a man could offer for Jesus Christ is not what he knows, but how he lives his life as a father and a husband”  (Doug Phillips, from the bio formerly on his website).
    Fact: I do not believe either Hinn’s or Phillips’ statement to be the whole truth.
    Fact: I challenged Phillips via email about his partly-true unbiblical assetion and received no answer.
    Fact: Bad beliefs and teachings do cause bad behavior (though not the only cause). 
    Fiction– many godly, gospelly leaders today are fond of gambling and still witness for Christ. Let’s follow their example and place our bets. Gamblers need to know the odds.  Sooo…. What are the odds?
    What are the odds Phillips owes some big whopping apologies to people he’s trampled in business, in court, in print, or in church?
    What are the odds Phillips owes some big whopping apologies to the “other woman” with whom he had the platonic?
    What are the odds she heard some big whoppers like, “My wife doesn’t understand me. You are my best friend. You are Christ’s gift to me! God wants us to be married and to be together for all eternity! It’s perfectly OK if we’re romantic and affectionate, and I kiss you and paw you and stir up your feelings,  but if I *knew* you in the biblical sense we’d have to have kids together and people would find out, because if we took precautions against having a quiver full, then THAT would be IMMORAL!
    What are the odds she’s a now-former employee? Now-former Flock member formerly under his *care*? Both?
    What are the odds she’s young enough to be his daughter?
    The foregoing questions are serious and glee-less. Snark is intentional.  
    Disclaimer– I am a sinner too, I have no right to judge, I should forgive him, I should pray for him, everyone makes mistakes, his letter proves he’s repented, the devil goes for the citadel (leaders like Doug) rather than for the little cracks in the wall (non-leaders like me) etc etc etc.

  43. @ Julie Anne:

    Like I said on your blog, I giggle and chuckle over these types of stories in so far as it puts another dent in the stereotypes among many Christians in the USA that married people are better than singles.

    Singles are thought to be selfish, immature, incomplete, promiscuous, etc., and not nearly as good or valuable unless they marry (and have a kid).

    Some of us unmarried people are not sleeping around or cheating on anyone, yet the pro- family, anti- singles types are cheating on their spouses.

    If they are going to marginalize anyone who doesn’t fit the married with children mould, and hype the “pro family” value stance to a ridiculous degree, they really need to live what they preach.

  44. I don’t know that much about Doug Phillips, but he’s not the first well-known Christian figure to step aside following an emotional affair with a woman not his wife. Mike Trout, former co-host of Focus on the Family’s radio program, resigned in 2000 following a similar affair. He gave one interview to a newspaper reporter, in which he took full responsibility for his actions, and then quietly disappeared from public life.

  45. @ deb:

    Kirk Cameron comes off to me as someone who sincerely cares about Jesus and so on, but IIRC, he didn’t become a Christian until a bit later in life.

    I’m afraid Cameron’s (what appears to me to be a) naive view is leading him to believe anyone and everyone who claims to be Christian must be a ‘real’ Christian.

    Cameron also seems to think if someone calls himself or herself a Christian and he/she writes books and blogs about being “pro family” or talk positively about Jesus, they must be on the same team.

    It’s like the guy doesn’t use enough discernment, or doesn’t look deeper than the surface – I think maybe he’s easily deceived, which is funny, since the partrio/ gender comps like to portray women as easily duped.

    Cameron needs to learn that “pro family” / “pro marriage” rhetoric can be unbiblical, and that not everyone who says he is a “Christian” can or should be trusted.

  46. Jeff Crippen wrote:

    Whenever someone like this, or really anyone, boldly and publicly announces their own God-give repentance, it is a sure sign they are not repentant. Add into the formula that this guy minimizes his sin (“didn’t know her in the biblical sense”), and the announcement that his lucky wife and children are now going to be the targets of his “nurturing,” and you’ve got every reason to believe genuine repentance has not happened. And time will bring out the truth.

    I agree with you.

  47. Deb wrote (quoting beliefs of patriarchy group):

    The family was the first institution created by God and blessed by Christ during His earthly ministry. It is God’s primary vehicle for communicating covenant promises to the next generation. It is the basic agency of dominion on earth.

    That is not only unbiblical, it’s anti-biblical.

    The Bible says that loyalty to Christ and spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ are to take precedence to your spouse and flesh and blood family, and that you are to spread the Gospel in world by sharing it with the unsaved, not try to “manufacture” Christians by Christian people marrying and having lots of children.

    The Bible (in the New Testament) does not say squat about using the family to spread the Gospel.

    Is Matthew 10 missing from the Bibles of the patriarchal groups? Jesus Christ said:

    I have come to turn
    “‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
    36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
    37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    (Matthew Chapter 10)

  48. As someone who works in the news field, I find it extremely odd that the secular media has ignored this story which is actually huge. You can’t find one outlet covering this. When someone of Doug’s stature in the family values world resigns over an affair, usually you see the secular news media all over it. Why? I think that needs to be answered and perhaps an email to the editor of the San Antonio express is in order. Here is his email. Mike Leary – mleary@express-news.net or the managing editor is Jamie Stockwell at jstockwell@express-news.net. I’d be interested in any responses you get. Something is odd here.

  49. Dave A A wrote:

    Fact:  ”…. the greatest witness a man could offer for Jesus Christ is not what he knows, but how he lives his life as a father and a husband”  (Doug Phillips, from the bio formerly on his website).

    OK everybody. Get those epistles out of your Bibles right now. No more “imitate me as I imitate Christ” nonsense from the likes of that epic failure, Paul.

  50. Dee and Deb:

    Here is a recent comment from The Doug Wilson on his post (linked above):

    All, I corrected my spelling of Doug Phillip’s name. Apologies to all, and this also lets the Wartburg Watch be right about something. Win/win.

  51. Deb wrote:

    BRING.IT.ON. We can add the names they call us under our heading “What the world is saying about The Wartburg Watch”. In all seriousness, we can handle it

    Exodus 22:18 “…Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live…”

  52. Julie Anne wrote:

    Dee and Deb:
    Here is a recent comment from The Doug Wilson on his post (linked above):
    All, I corrected my spelling of Doug Phillip’s name. Apologies to all, and this also lets the Wartburg Watch be right about something. Win/win.

    I’m encouraged that at least he’s paying attention to two weaker vessels. 🙂

  53. Daisy, I’m sad to hear that he’s friends with Cameron, but having read and heard things by Comfort and Cameron, I don’t think they’re so gullible as to believe that everyone who says they’re a Christian, is. I do find it disturbing and sad that he/they may have thrown in their lot with the likes of VF/Phillips.

    Legal Action by VF against those who tried to share adverse experiences? There are ties to racists/anti-Semitics, at least indirectly, with some in this Reconstructionist/Dominionist crowd. I am definitely not “gleeful”, but I’m also not blaming the devil for Phillip’s bad PR. May he be truthful and seek repentance. May healing and reconciliation come to the family. May bound souls be set free, and may no more “witches” be burned at the stake in the name of Christ, regardless of the color of their skin or that they worship the God of Israel. White Supremacy is alive and well in our country and the EU.

  54. @ RB:

    I’ve watched many episodes of Cameron’s show on TBN, I’ve seen him play host on the Praise the Lord show, and I’ve seen him interviewed a time or two on secular media, and the guy gives off a gullible vibe.

    Until a few years ago, I didn’t see anything wrong with Christians promoting “family values” either. But I see what’s wrong with it now.

    I am just guessing that Cameron is still viewing being “pro family” as defending Christian values against liberalism / atheism, etc, but doesn’t realize some Christians go way too far with it.

    I could be wrong, of course. Maybe Camreon knows that patriarchy and Reconstructionism go far, far beyond simple American patriotism and gender complementarianism, and either supports it, or just does not care how anti-biblical it is.

    He just comes off as so “aw shucks, golly, ma’am” in interviews and TV, I wonder how much he really knows.

  55. @ Deb:

    From the page you linked to, they claim their merchandise will help married guys:

    The RESOLUTION BOOK FOR MEN will help you

    -fearlessly embrace responsibilities God has given you
    -move beyond past failures to live in the right now
    -emerge from a life mired in confusion and apathy
    -become a strong spiritual leader for your family
    -leave a strong legacy by living intentionally

    Prior to their book, tshirts, key chains, whatever did Christian men do for the last 2,000 years?

    There’s a commercial for ‘Mens Bible Study for Movie Courageous, The Resolution for Men’ on You Tube, with slow motions, backwards footage of golf tees and screws coming together to spell out the word “Resolution.”

    I gave this link to HUG a few months ago. It’s an ad for the Resolution certificate, completely with overly dramatic music and text appearing on screen:
    DaySpring’s COURAGEOUS Resolution

  56. @ Daisy:

    Forgot to mention the Resolution wristband… 

    Should husbands were it on the left wrist close to their wedding band?

  57. Deb wrote:

    Forgot to mention the Resolution wristband…

    Oh my goodness, I didn't see that before. Yes, they include Resolution wrist bands

    The Resolution Pack Get One for Every Man in Your Church – an Outreach Exclusive! The Resolution Pack includes, The Resolution For Men Book, the Resolution Certificate print (as seen in the movie) and the FREE Bonus I Resolve/I Will wristband. It’s the perfect combination to help the men in your church grow to be the men and fathers that God intended them to be, to encourage them to resolve to stand up for their family by signing the Resolution Certificate and to remind them of their commitment with a wristband they can wear everyday!

    How schlocky. 😆 If people could get by with, or need to be reminded to live the Christian life by, wrist bands, one wonders why Jesus didn't have his Apostles hand them out.

  58. Julie Anne wrote:

    Late last night and early this morning there was an interesting conversation on my blog among 3 attorneys regarding Phillips’ use of “Esq.” Very funny.

    This was the first thing I noticed about his resignation letter. Despite being a statement that should have been born in the depths of humility, he declares himself titled. To me, that renders the entire letter nothing more than a document of legal positioning.

  59. @ Daisy:

    I’ve not come across the precise wristbands whereof you spake, but I know what you mean.

    I must confess to a concern over WWJD which certainly did the rounds over here if not left of the Pond too. I’m sure they meant well, but “What would Jesus do?” is actually only the first half of a sentence. “What would Jesus do if he were here?” Which he’s not, of course, because his Spirit doesn’t actually live in us and he’s not with us always.

  60. formerly anonymous wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Fact:  ”…. the greatest witness a man could offer for Jesus Christ is not what he knows, but how he lives his life as a father and a husband”  (Doug Phillips, from the bio formerly on his website).
    OK everybody. Get those epistles out of your Bibles right now. No more “imitate me as I imitate Christ” nonsense from the likes of that epic failure, Paul.

    And what about that slacker Peter? He was married, and what do we hear about him *nurturing* da wife? Crickets chirping… And after the mistakes involving the rooster, did he look forward to spending more time “training up” all da kids?

  61. RB wrote:

    White Supremacy is alive and well in our country and the EU.

    Yep. Some of what these people say and preach does remind one of the Klan and the skinheads with just a touch of biker gang. It is certainly “supremacy’ with just enough pale skin tied in to put it on the white supremacy continuum. Thank goodness they are out west. Spread the blame around.

  62. First of all, be careful about pointing fingers at Kirk Cameron or anyone else who associates with Doug. Doug has quite an intricate system going on. He has that VERY small close circle of friends. Then he has his employees. Then he has those "strategic friends". Those are the people like Kirk and others "with the name" to get him where he wants. He uses these people (like Voddie) depending on his needs. These also include his big dollar contributors etc. Then he has this circle of followers that he calls and will do anything for him when he needs them. Then he has people on the "fringe". Those are those customers, conference goers etc. So don't take much stock into his famous associations. They come and go……….and come and go. You may hear someone's name and that's all you hear about and then they disappear (aka Voddie, Geoff Botkin, etc.)

  63. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist: I think what’s scarier is that the names on the aforementioned list would have a familiar ring to many within conservative evangelicalism. These names aren’t like the old Baptist fundamentalist personalities such as Jack Hyles, John R Rice, etc., who, despite their grandiose views of their influence, are relatively unknown in the broader evangelical community. 😮

  64. Deb wrote:

    2. Why are there so many stay-at home daughters in this movement who never seem to get married?

    “Doug Phillips has been extremely vocal about young marriages and quiverful, both of which he strongly endorses; however, there are a number of young women in this movement who are not marrying…. Phillips and his ilk believe that fathers are supposed to help their daughters find husbands……. For example, Geoffrey Botkin has two beautiful daughters who are well into their twenties. They wrote a book when they were teenagers called So Much More….If young marriages are so strongly advised, then why are there so many young women whose daddies never seem to find them husbands?”
    —————————————————–

    I’ve often thought it takes a lot of hubris for the Botkin sisters to write books with titles such as, “It’s (Not That) Complicated: How to Relate to Guys in a Healthy, Sane, and Biblical Way” when it seems they’re not relating to guys at all. Anna Sofia wrote on her blog in Oct. 2010 http://visionarydaughters.com/2010/10 that she had just turned 25, so do that math on that and she’s 28 by now. I’m not sure how old Elizabeth is, but they’re close in age. My hunch is, they didn’t expect to be the poster children for stay-home-daughterhood for this long.

    And Doug Phillips/Vision Forum has been hawking this nonsense for years.

  65. I’d note that not confessing to flat-out adultery does one thing in particular: it keeps Doug’s wife Beall chained to him. She can’t get a “biblical divorce” if he’s not an adulterer. She may want to stay with him, but if she doesn’t want to, she’s well and truly trapped by this doctrine which only allows for divorce in the case of adultery.

  66. Oooh, all that weird Daddy/daughter stuff…..Gag hack. Total emotional incest – how can many of these Daddy’s girls get married when their hearts belong to Daddy? Boundaries people, boundaries.

    I have to say that the constant simpering of these ‘heads of house’ for female company, especially young female company, doesn’t make me naturally view them as the superior beings they insist they are – in fact, waaaaaaaaaaaay the reverse. The cringe factor is astronomical with these guys.

  67. Re Cameron, hmm. Do remember reading direct quotes which sounded the opposite of gullible and the warning to not assume the gospel, but to keep proclaiming it. Also, from Comfort, came the admonition to stop saying, “What would Jesus do?” and instead reflect on what Jesus actually did. This was years ago, however, so perhaps their perspective has gotten skewed as they rubbed elbows with the Patriarchy-Reconstruction-Dominionists.

  68. @ That Bad Dog:

    I really do wonder how well he can come back from this.

    I’ve learned to never underestimate the capacity of Christian bubble homeschoolers to forget (or never even notice) the sins of their leaders. The Christian homeschool section of my FB would have been totally silent about Doug’s resignation if I hadn’t shared the post. For a revealing little thought experiment, imagine what the reaction would have been had Barack Obama or Harry Reid had that affair and written that letter.

    Personally, I think it’s more than possible (barring any further revelations) that Doug could actually gain credibility from this in certain circles by lying low for a little while and then coming back a “changed man” with even more insights into how to be a good father and husband. If that’s the case, I guarantee you a book will be forthcoming and make buku bucks.

  69. That Bad Dog wrote:

    VF has long cultivated a legalistic, perfectionist, and programmatic approach to Christian living which is simply not conducive to the development of mercy and forgiveness. And he who lives by the law, dies by the law. Weakness and failure are not allowable options, because they threaten to expose as false and hollow the very fundamental premise of their doctrine: follow “these” rules, programs, curriculum, etc., and you will get “this” result. So rather than abandon their legalism, adherents tend to turn on fallen members “Lord of the Flies”-style.

    I agree with your assessment of the patriarchal movement’s likelihood of rejecting those who sin sexually….however, I suspect this tendency may not extend to their beloved leaders. I have seen VF proponents on several websites who seem to be sticking up for Doug…lots of calls for forgiveness, loving acceptance, etc! Which would be all well and good EXCEPT that if the sinner were a lowly female rather than Phillips, the response would be far different in most cases.

    I suppose maybe we are only seeing a vocal minority, who are so in love with Doug’s ideology that they tend to minimize his sin or call for instant forgiveness for him, when perhaps there are far more VF-ers out there who are judging him as harshly as they judge others, but just not posting their thoughts. I am just not very hopeful that Doug’s resignation will cause his ‘ministry’ to be looked at as carefully as it ought.

    Also….Mandy, I was interested to see your thoughts about East Texas. I am from the West Coast, but I am attending school in East Texas and it feels like being in the heart of the storm! Where I grew up, patriarchy proponents were more thin on the ground….now here I am in a city that has a fundamentalist megachurch (where at least one of my college friends goes, head covered and all), which my friends tell shocking stories about. And not too far away we have Gary North’s Reconstructionist headquarters, and Teen Mania’s headquarters, and goodness knows what else…sometimes I feel overwhelmed by the pain emanating from people in this area of the country 🙁

  70. @ Lori:

    So he says that he didn’t “know” her in the biblical sense, is that referring to actual intercourse only or does that mean he still could have engaged in other forms of sexual behavior without actual penetration? What does the word “know” really mean?

    The letter’s wording technically does not exclude non-penetrative acts (though apparently he’s intimated elsewhere that nothing physical happened). He is a lawyer so he would likely know how to craft such things if the need arose. After all, what is the meaning of the word “is”?

  71. @ Deb:

    The Botkin daughters are stunning! If and when they get married, we promise to announce it here at TWW.

    I could have sworn that one of them did get married a few years ago but I can’t remember the details now.

  72. @ Summer:

    Didn’t one of these patriarchy guys say if they had a good relationship with their young daughters it would keep them from having an affair?

    Yes, it was Voddie Baucham. I guess that means Doug’s relationship with his daughters wasn’t good enough?

  73. @ Hester:
    Oops! Wish I had seen your comment before I posted mine 🙂 You summed up my thoughts perfectly, on the tendency of VF advocates to ignore their leaders’ failings. And I am afraid you may be right, about Doug possibly gaining credibility in some circles after all this. His resignation does have an awfully temporary ring to it…. “The Board will be making provision for the management of the ministry during this time.” And there is no indication, which I think he would have made if he intended it, that he is *permanently* stepping down from leadership. Even if Phillips never achieves leadership of VF in name again, I do not think that he will remain uninvolved.

  74. Hester wrote:

    @ Deb:
    The Botkin daughters are stunning! If and when they get married, we promise to announce it here at TWW.
    I could have sworn that one of them did get married a few years ago but I can’t remember the details now.

    No, a couple of the sons have married, but the daughters are still single.

  75. Seneca wrote:

    Anon 1 wrote:

    Seneca wrote:
    Anon 1 wrote:
    Seneca wrote:
    There but for the Grace of God……
    *
    I am not a better man than Doug Phillips.
    I believe you
    *
    As well you should – sadly
    *
    Perhaps God likes you more?

    No but in His amazing love He’s never turned His back on me.

    I have no idea what that is supposed to mean in light of your first comment where you seem to be implying that God’s grace kept you from ending up like Doug Phillips. Are you now implying God turned His back on Phillips?

    Sometimes it can be instructive for us to analyze ingrained clichés about God. “There but for the Grace of God, go I”, is one of those clichés that needs some serious analysis.

  76. @ Daisy:

    Daisy, To put a finer point on your excellent response: Who was it that Christ asked to look after His mother while hanging on the Cross?

  77. @ Bethany:
    Bethany, do you mind if I email you? I’m pretty certain we are in the same area of the state. I’d be interested in gaining another outsider’s opinion on life here (I’m originally from the Gulf Coast – a completely different culture). -Mandy

  78. Lori wrote:

    I have a question…So he says that he didn’t “know” her in the biblical sense, is that referring to actual intercourse only or does that mean he still could have engaged in other forms of sexual behavior without actual penetration? What does the word “know” really mean?

    If it only meaning is sexual intercourse, his “inappropriate and romantic” relationship could have been much more than an emotional affair, correct?

    Correct. It gets very technical in the patriocentristic world. So it could be Driscoll type of sex which would include anything outside of intercourse. The technicality which was rightly pointed out by Southwestern Discomfort is that Beall, DP’s wife, cannot separate from him because it is not “technically” adultery because DP claims there was no intercourse. You must remember, that movement lives by their “law” in that they have their own Talmud of sorts in how they interpret scripture.

    the bigger problem is that DP made his living off marketing the “perfect biblical family” so it is important his “affair” is billed as not “biblical”. :o) You cannot make this stuff up. But it makes sense if you live in that world, for some reason. It is a CULT.

  79. RB wrote:

    Re Cameron, hmm. Do remember reading direct quotes which sounded the opposite of gullible and the warning to not assume the gospel

    Well much of his views on the Gospel sound orthodox/conservative enough.

    I’m talking more about his personality and mannerisms, and that he might be ignorant that some of these groups he buddies up with are far more than “pro family” and more into “let’s worship the family / replace God with family / prohibit females from going to college.”

  80. @ Bethany:
    I had to look up where Teen Mania is headquartered. If you know where that is then we are definitely in the same neck of the woods. Its kinda scary living up here isn’t it? Just think, the big homeschooling conference that the Dugg*r family attends and promotes is pretty close too.

  81. @ Anon 1:

    Mm hmm, yep, it was a disciple/friend to whom Jesus entrusted care of his mother at the end, not one of his flesh and blood brothers (I come from a Baptist background, so I don’t think those mentioned as being brothers and sisters in the Bible were Jesus’ “cousins” or whatever the RCC says about it -they are into the perpetual virginity of Mary stuff, I am not.)

  82. Anon 1 wrote:

    Correct. It gets very technical in the patriocentristic world. So it could be Driscoll type of sex which would include anything outside of intercourse. The technicality which was rightly pointed out by Southwestern Discomfort is that Beall, DP’s wife, cannot separate from him because it is not “technically” adultery because DP claims there was no intercourse.

    I wonder why they’re being so very particular given Jesus’ statement of Matthew 5:27, 28

    The hair splitting over what is or is not sex sounds like something you’d hear from teen or college aged Christians, not a group of adults.

  83. @ Daisy:

    I think they mostly get “particular” when it involves leadership. Different set of rules for them than for the peasants who follow them. The becomes more obvious when you read JensGems excommunication story from DP’s church. She was not forgiven for a 25 year old sin of the same kind.

  84. I failed a few years back, I was human, when that became evident to my brothers and sisters in the Lord it was made clear that I needed to repent. So I did repent, I apologized for every single thing that happened, basically I said I was sorry for being born and being a waste of air. That ticked some of my fellow servants off even more. It showed weakness and that is disgusting always, except when it has some apologetic or pr value.

    Eventually I was allowed to continue to live in this dimension and on this planet as long as I stayed way out of the way. In my entire 31+ years as a Christian I have never, in real life, seen a restoration. Even for very small offenses they are always remembered and used immediately when needed. I understand famous and rich Christians are better than me I get that. They fulfill very important God honoring spiritual needs, Money and Power. I get that as well. I am totally ok with eating the crumbs off the plate under the table like some mangy mutt that should be kicked every once in a while just so it knows its place. I get that also.

    What I dont get is that we never even get that far within the corporation or even the splinter franchises. When one of the higher ups or mid level management such as Mr. Phillips messes up he will get a pass. I dont mean the “affair” that is irrelevant it is the potential interruption to revenue and loss of power. Now that is a huge sin. I admire his ability to deflect and reduce while waiting out the storm. That is a good and sound business tactic. Of course that is only my rather uniformed opinion of the situation.

    When I made my confession it was sincere and contrite, until I was informed it was selfish and of satan and I am a pawn of the devil. So how does one say they are sorry? Repent? and be saved? These are rather small concerns in the overall scheme of the business of religion, but I was just curious.

  85. .
    Dee & Deb,

    Have you seen this?

    re: Doug Phillips
    It would be unthinkable for a soldier to leave a wounded friend on the battle field, and call him a bad soldier for getting wounded. It would be even worse if that soldier actually left his wounded friend on the battle field to die a slow and painful death, even if the solder was injured due to his own fault or actions. Yet, it’s done routinely within the Christian community when our fellow brothers in Christ are wounded in the battle of kingdom building that God has called all of us to engage in…

    Could it be, that the one who has fallen has done so because he put himself on the front lines of the battle when he saw a void of soldiers willing to draw the sword and advance the kingdom of his General, Jesus Christ. The blood flies most where the battle is fiercest.

    MORE: http://www.themaledomain.net/2013/11/wounded-soldiers-in-battle-for-kingdom.html

    Your thoughts?

  86. TedS. wrote:

    .
    Dee & Deb,
    Have you seen this?
    re: Doug Phillips
    It would be unthinkable for a soldier to leave a wounded friend on the battle field, and call him a bad soldier for getting wounded. It would be even worse if that soldier actually left his wounded friend on the battle field to die a slow and painful death, even if the solder was injured due to his own fault or actions. Yet, it’s done routinely within the Christian community when our fellow brothers in Christ are wounded in the battle of kingdom building that God has called all of us to engage in…
    Could it be, that the one who has fallen has done so because he put himself on the front lines of the battle when he saw a void of soldiers willing to draw the sword and advance the kingdom of his General, Jesus Christ. The blood flies most where the battle is fiercest.
    MORE: http://www.themaledomain.net/2013/11/wounded-soldiers-in-battle-for-kingdom.html
    Your thoughts?

    Depends of the “soldier”, if it is one of the many canon fodder types you dont just leave them wounded on the field you turn around and mock them and take photos and say see we told you they were weak. Then when the mocking is no longer helpful you bayonet them in the back because they are not worth a bullet.

  87. TedS. wrote:

    it’s done routinely within the Christian community when our fellow brothers in Christ are wounded in the battle of kingdom building that God

    So what does hanky-panky have to do with building God’s kingdom? Self-inflicted wounds don’t count.

  88. @ TedS.:
    Well, I know you didn’t ask for my thoughts, 🙂 but that is a bunch of bologna. Those “soldiers on the front lines” have slaughtered their own sheep, and left them to die a slow death. Yet, you won’t hear the big dogs rushing to the aid of the sheep. Just more hypocrisy.

  89. @ TedS.:

    the domain name is a hint. But these guys can spin anything. I like what Jeff said, “self inflicted wounds don’t count”. In fact, self inflicted wounds during war will get you a court martial and prison—- if we want to use military war language. I would sic Patton on him. :o)

  90. @ TedS.:
    And this: “This week, many in the home schooling community are grieving the fall of a fellow soldier, who has spent many years promoting strong family values and strong male leadership in the home.”

    Many in the home schooling community have been speaking out against Phillips’ nonsense for years. It’s presumptuous for the author to speak for the home schooling community in general.
    This is some very potent Kool-aid.

  91. Lol!!! But also, sadly true! We lived in TX from 1998-2004, and I ran into these folks at the massive Arlington Book Fair and Conference. Not surprisingly, that was ALWAYS held mothers' day weekend— isn't that nice? What a sweet break from homeschooling, birthing, baking your everything, and generally being perfect, to go to a conference to tell you how to do it ALL better all over a day that is supposed to be about treating Mom! Smh! As a young homeschool mom at the time, it was a confusing muddle. I regret any part I may have played in such a detestable mindset of bigotry and Dominionism and patriarchy. Sometimes I wonder why The Lord tarries. We certainly know how to screw things up in His name!

    Julie Anne wrote:

    We are in communication with some folks to whom Doug Phillips owes an apology. So far nothing has happened along those lines. He owes an apology to the whole culture he helped create. That’s not going to happen unless he divorces himself from the Dominion/Reconstructionist theology that perpetuates all of this nonsense. Oh boy, haters gonna hate me now.

  92. Daisy wrote:

    The hair splitting over what is or is not sex sounds like something you’d hear from teen or college aged Christians, not a group of adults.

    Teen Christians trying to parse to the letter how far they can go in getting some nookie without it really being SEX(TM).

    Like Clinton/Driscoll sex — if you use another orifice, it doesn’t count.

    (ed. delete)

  93. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Many in the home schooling community have been speaking out against Phillips’ nonsense for years. It’s presumptuous for the author to speak for the home schooling community in general.
    This is some very potent Kool-aid.

    Potent as White Night in Jonestown?

  94. Hester wrote:

    Yes, it was Voddie Baucham. I guess that means Doug’s relationship with his daughters wasn’t good enough?

    He should have ordered them to Shave Daddy more often…

  95. Bethany wrote:

    Which would be all well and good EXCEPT that if the sinner were a lowly female rather than Phillips, the response would be far different in most cases.

    As I commented once before: “That’s what Honor Killings are for.”

  96. @ justanotheranonposter:
    “Of course that is only my rather uniformed opinion of the situation.”
    On the contrary, you have a very clear understanding of the play book. Do not blame yourself. Cults like this love to use every sin you’ve ever committed against you. It’s how they maintain control of the sheep. But the leaders never hold themselves accountable to the same standards. You were duped by a cult. So was I. God doesn’t treat his people this way.

  97. Daisy wrote:

    Kirk Cameron comes off to me as someone who sincerely cares about Jesus and so on, but IIRC, he didn’t become a Christian until a bit later in life.

    Kirk Cameron is highly neurotic even by Hollywood Showbiz standards. Extreme phobia about any appearance of sin, real or imagined. When he found out there were Heathens on the set of Left Behind, he holed up in his trailer between takes to prevent contaimination. He is known for only appearing in actual Christainese movies, and insists on his wife as stand-in whenever a scene calls for his character to kiss or touch a woman “to prevent Adultery”. In my church, the technical term for this is “Excessive Scrupulosity”, a form of OCD.

    A couple years ago, Slacktivist observed that Cameron seemed to have been catechized in a church where Holiness was defined in entirely negative terms — entirely by Thou Shalt Nots. Add to this that he converted as an adult after several years in the showbiz grind, and he probably has a lot of guilt built up about his pre-conversion life and career, genuine or not. Add a little OCD, and PRESTO!

  98. Muff Potter wrote:

    I’ve noticed that to a man these guys are obsessed with war, bloodshed and conquest.

    “Warhammer 40K: The Live Role-Playing Game, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

    I really wish someone had turned these guys on to Warhammer 40K instead of the Bible. Then they could “WAAAAAAAAUGH! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!” all they want without casting all the rest of us as NPC hordes to take all the casualties.

  99. TedS. wrote:

    Could it be, that the one who has fallen has done so because he put himself on the front lines of the battle when he saw a void of soldiers willing to draw the sword and advance the kingdom of his General, Jesus Christ. The blood flies most where the battle is fiercest.

    This has to be one of the dumbest and most most disgusting responses I’ve yet read.

    So DP — apparently for some extended period, with all the attendant deception and conniving required, and to a degree sufficient that it required a public internet acknowledgement once he was found out — violated every major tenet he has espoused for decades regarding marriage and family BECAUSE HE WAS WORKING SO HARD ESPOUSING THEM FOR GOD…

    I just vomited in my mouth.

  100. Pingback: The Resignation of Doug Phillips | Why Not Train A Child?

  101. href=”#comment-118563″ title=”Go to comment of this author”>Muff Potter:

    How right you are. DominionMandate Victorious ManlyMan the Third is popping in to say amen.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RyilWeS6974/UH4MkePAqgI/AAAAAAAAAi0/T2ONhweGJ0M/s1600/BoyColonel.jpg@ <a

    "Introduce your boys to solid, God-glorifying fiction which smells of adventure, dominion, and manhood. The year is 1836. A mysterious young English soldier known as the "Boy Colonel" commands a crack regiment in the snowy wastelands of Siberia. No one knows his history. No one knows his name." (VF Books for Boys)

    Um…his name is DominionMandate Victorious ManlyMan the Third.

  102. Did you guys check out that site that TedS linked to? It is like Rambo for Jesus over there. Sheesh!

  103. Muff Potter wrote:

    @ justanotheranonposter:

    I’ve noticed that to a man these guys are obsessed with war, bloodshed and conquest.

    That is because they never have to go near a real war. Something like that is easy to glorify when you won’t ever have to be in serious harms way in say, Iraq or Afghanistan. They are talkers.

  104. How does the PATRIARCHY movement ignore this?

    “Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.” (Acts 2:17)

    Or that there is neither “male, nor female in Christ” (Galatians 3:28)?

    I used to think that this “complementarian/egalitarian” debate was just theologians bickering. But, I’ve witnessed now how awful and oppressive it can be to limit someone from building up the Body of Christ just because of gender. And, also, to expect giftings from men simply because they are men. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills, not as our theology wills or mandates.

    Now, I’m beginning to seriously question the motives of powerful male leaders in promoting doctrines that maintain a beneficial power dynamic. How do they truly see this benefitting the Body of Christ as a whole universal organism if only half is supposed to function freely?

  105. Beakerj wrote:

    Oooh, all that weird Daddy/daughter stuff…..Gag hack. Total emotional incest – how can many of these Daddy’s girls get married when their hearts belong to Daddy? Boundaries people, boundaries.

    It makes my stomach turn. I don’t get this daddy/daughter focus, or what it is supposed to do to further the Kingdom. It’s been glamorized in Christian circles and marketing. Google this term “my prince has come and his name is daddy” and see how many products you can buy to display a warped family dynamic.

  106. @ TedS.:

    ALAKAZOOM – POOF!! Now he’s a hero . . . good grief! Some of these people seem to live in an alternative realm.

  107. That Bad Dog wrote:

    Ted S. the way that quote embedded above makes it look like you wrote it, when in fact you quoted it from that idiotic website. Sorry about that.

    Thanks.
    No offense taken.

  108. @ Bethany:

    Even if Phillips never achieves leadership of VF in name again, I do not think that he will remain uninvolved.

    He actually is still in leadership of Vision Forum, Inc., as well as Boerne Christian Assembly. He only resigned from Vision Forum Ministries, which is the nonprofit part. In other words, he’s still in control of his church and the moneymaking operation. Of course most people don’t know that “Vision Forum” is actually two organizations with similar names so they’ll just assume that he’s completely stepped down.

  109. @ TedS.:

    Could it be, that the one who has fallen has done so because he put himself on the front lines of the battle when he saw a void of soldiers willing to draw the sword and advance the kingdom of his General, Jesus Christ. The blood flies most where the battle is fiercest.

    This implies that somebody just ran up and stabbed Doug in the chest without his consent or involvement. Which is manifestly NOT what happened. Seriously, I hope the woman in question’s name is never released because of stuff like this. The minute it gets out who she is, it’ll be scarlet letter time and she’ll be forever immortalized and pilloried as The Satanic Whore Who Ruined Doug. (Because we all know Doug lost all agency the minute he first met her.) I mean really, for Pete’s sake – it’s even the correct letter and everything.

  110. Mandy wrote:

    @ Bethany:
    I had to look up where Teen Mania is headquartered. If you know where that is then we are definitely in the same neck of the woods. Its kinda scary living up here isn’t it? Just think, the big homeschooling conference that the Dugg*r family attends and promotes is pretty close too.

    Yep!! I have had occasional fantasies about infiltrating The Movement (Vision Forum, or some affiliated organization/event) and producing an explosive exposé…one can dream! 🙂

    I would be happy to talk with you more about life here in East Texas! My email is goatgirlbethie (the last part of the address is Google’s usual well-known email service…..let me know if I wasn’t clear enough 🙂 )

  111. Hester wrote:

    He actually is still in leadership of Vision Forum, Inc., as well as Boerne Christian Assembly.

    I think the fact that he still seems to be in leadership at his church is almost the worst part! And surprising considering there seems to be a very explicit teaching in the New Testament about this 🙁 (I don’t know if we can clearly say he is doing wrong if he continues to benefit financially from Vision Forum, Inc. although it seems very questionable…but to continue in ANY position of direct spiritual leadership seems inexcusable.) Maybe further developments will come out of BCA.

  112. Justanotherposter, you repented and confessed. God doesn’t treat you that way, because you aren’t even seen that way, since you are hoping and trusting in Jesus for eternal life. God’s very righteousness in in you. Mercy exults over judgement and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but the Spirit. They were or are walking carnally. God bless you!

  113. Honestly… according to their doctrine…was this all predestined and out of his control? Or maybe he is not of the elect, as some Calvinists have speculated regarding rebellious teens. They cannot have it both ways, right? 🙁

  114. justanotheranonposter wrote:

    Depends of the “soldier”, if it is one of the many canon fodder types…

    To switch to a variant of the military theme, we have this:
    “Does Satan attack our strengths or our weaknesses? Does he try to destroy us where we’re strong or where we’re weak? For most Christians, it’s usually our weaknesses that the devil targets. But for Christian leaders it’s usually their strengths, the areas they’ve built ministries upon, the moral and spiritual qualities they are best known for promoting.
    Why? Why does the devil go for the citadel rather than for the little cracks in the wall?
    Because the damage is so much greater, the fallout is more horrendous, the church is more discouraged, and the world is most delighted when a Christian leader falls in the one place he really planted his flag and made a stand.”
    David Murray        
    http://headhearthand.org/blog/2013/11/01/one-vital-lesson-from-doug-phillips-resignation/
    Phillips really planted his flag and made his stand, doncha see. Kinda like Custer.This is why the Debbil “went” for him kinda like Sitting Bull “went” for The General (more in a minute). The Debbil doesn’t assault leader/citadels in the same way as he targets us little cannon fodder/cracks in the wall. Satan gets us where we’re weak. Oh-oh—- I’m cracking up,as I type this. Get some caulk! But Satan got Doug where he’s strong! Depends on whether you’re a citadel,or a crack.
    Back to the Male Domain guy– noticed a pic of him and “The General”. You’d think from his article, that that would be Jesus— but instead– he’s with Mark Driscoll.

  115. @ Erik:
    Galatians verse: They say that verse can only be about salvation, not gifting, or, they say it is about equal value and worth, not roles.

    I think they patently ignore the Acts verse, or, more likely, override women exercising any of those gifts in the church with the (all important) verse that women must be silent in Church verse. So woman can exercise their teaching gifts outside of any church function and only to other women – because the secular world is really going to want to sit and listen to a Spiritually gifted women teach about a God they don’t believe in (well, they would have said that, until Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessey came along, now they are likely to try and bury that verse altogether).

    My eyes are rolling so far back into my skull writing this, I’m not sure they will resurface again.

  116. I was reading through Jen Epstine’s blog about her time in Doug Phillip’s church and just can’t fathom how this guy has a church. No personal skills, barely uses the Bible, is distant and cold towards his congregation, doesn’t allow women to speak at all (not even prayer requests or introducing guest). Why don’t people just leave these churches? What would make them want to stay? I just get confused. At least my old pastor had the sense to hide his patriarchy and barely mention it.

  117. @Dave AA – I notice that comment and oy! My thought was not that Satan attacks leaders in their strengths, but the leaders are probably preaching on certain topics because they have unresolved areas of conflict and they are overcompensating for these (e.g. Ted Haggard).

  118. Val wrote:

    (well, they would have said that, until Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessey came along, now they are likely to try and bury that verse altogether).

    So true Val. I love Rachel’s courage and zeal. I had honestly written her books off as post-modern relativism, based solely upon what my Gospel Coalition circles told me. When I read them for myself, I felt like she communicated some of the very things I forced myself to ignore. The way she has been treated by all the patriarchs of “gospel/biblical” gender prejudices helped me see how much of an issue this is. I don’t know Sarah Bessey, but will look her up. Thank you!

  119. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I’m not buying it, Dee. That list looks like a Who’s Who of Fundamentalism.

    And, as usual, you are right.

    Do you see what we are trying to do? In the list of obvious whacko fundies (Kevin “Womb Tomb” Swanson) there are also those who are very in with the Gospel Coalition crowd. We are attempting to show that the whacko crowd is not so far from the “true gospel” crowd.

    The Vision Forum sponsored movies would never get the play that they do without some in TGC land who support their efforts. And that is cause for concern.

  120. @ noturniptruck:
    If what you are saying is true, then all of the people that supposedly come and go are really stupid and Doug phillips is really smart.

    The reason I say this is because we would never be sucked into a Vision Forum gig and yet, supposed really smart leaders, have rubbed shoulders with him. Anyone who associates with them is either stupid, in it for the money or agrees with the basic premise. None of the option seem particularly positive.

  121. M. Joy wrote:

    Anna Sofia wrote on her blog in Oct. 2010 http://visionarydaughters.com/2010/10 that she had just turned 25, so do that math on that and she’s 28 by now. I’m not sure how old Elizabeth is, but they’re close in age. My hunch is, they didn’t expect to be the poster children for stay-home-daughterhood for this long.

    Frankly, the creepy video of girls shaving their dads raises all sorts of question.

    The Botkin sisters are quite pretty. Their patriarch daddy is revered within the limited circles of rather bizarre fundamentalism. Within these circles, Botkin is synonymous with “revered leader.” I am sure there are a number of young men, with the approval of their daddies, who would love to catch one of those girls. The only one holding back on this is dear daddy. The question is, “Why?”

  122. Val wrote:

    I was reading through Jen Epstine’s blog about her time in Doug Phillip’s church…. Why don’t people just leave these churches? What would make them want to stay?

    If I remember correctly, it was a Catch 22. Jen made the mistake of WANTING to leave and saying so. This made it impossible for her husband decide to leave, as he’d be abdicating his leadership to Listen to hs Wife. The only solution was to get excommunicated. Now, in the event that the husband was the first to want to leave and say so, the solution is for the wife to divorce him. She doesn’t need to obey a husband who’s in *unrepentant sin*, of course.

  123. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    it keeps Doug’s wife Beall chained to him. She can’t get a “biblical divorce” if he’s not an adulterer.

    Beall will never leave Doug. In those circles, they can’t get remarried. And she is dependent on him.

    Apparently, the name of the woman has been discussed within this close knit community for awhile. I bet the name will be revealed in the near future since it involves how things are run in the community. I wonder if Beall felt trapped.

  124. Beakerj wrote:

    I have to say that the constant simpering of these ‘heads of house’ for female company, especially young female company,

    I am waiting for the big reveal of the woman involved. If what we have been told is true, it will highlight what you just said.

  125. justanotheranonposter wrote:

    When I made my confession it was sincere and contrite, until I was informed it was selfish and of satan and I am a pawn of the devil. So how does one say they are sorry? Repent? and be saved? These are rather small concerns in the overall scheme of the business of religion, but I was just curious.

    I am so, so sorry for what you have been through. You have been forgiven and should be restored. You were just associated with the wrong group of people.

    People love to pick a sin that they do not struggle with. Then, they condemn those with that sin. They like to show they take a “hard line” on that sin. Somehow, they totally forget all of the sins in their own lives. Each and every one of us struggles with sin. We may be positionally holy but we are still functional sinners.

    Having watched the game in many churches, I have come to the conclusion that, unless you have a reason to deeply trust the individuals in your church, you should confess to God and perhaps another person outside of the local church. I doubly mean this if your church is into “church discipline” which is ill defined and used by people who think they are above such sins.

    I have been reading some stuff on line about Doug Phillips and his wife, Beall. Here is one woman’s account about how he judged her. It is a 10 part series.

    http://jensgems.wordpress.com/category/jens-story-01/

    If he continues being involved in his church activities, in light of this account, he will give the biggest example why people should be very, very cautious of becoming involved in such a church.

  126. dee wrote:

    I am waiting for the big reveal of the woman involved.

    Sarcasm on— *You Wartburg Wenches have no need to know. Not your job. What’s your Pastor’s name? David and Bathsheba!!! Doug has to provide for his family!* Sarc off— all the following courtesy Of Blog And Mablog comments section.

  127. @ TedS.:
    I have often said that the Bible can be used to justify just about anything. And that goes for the wooden literal faction as well.
    Let’s see if I get this nonsense. Satan, on the run from Phillips advances, dressed up a Jezebel and made her flaunt herself in front of Phillips. Phillips, exhausted from thee battle, took one look and said “It’s time for some whoopee.” Talk about codswallop.

    Next thing we wil hear from the fractured Scripture boys is this. Well, David sinned with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. He then became a great king.Doug may have sinned with “whoever” bu didn’t kill anybody so imagine what kind of a great leader he will become! he will be greater than David.

    Naw-Doug was just another guy tempted by a woman who he saw on a day to day basis and didn’t have the strength to walk away. All of Doug’s “do it my way to be a real Christian” did not work to prevent him from this sin.

  128. AnonFam wrote:

    Seriously… according to their doctrine…was this all predestined and out of his control?

    He was predestined to fool around? Too funny.

  129. AnonFam wrote:

    Or maybe he is not of the elect, as some Calvinists have speculated regarding rebellious teens. T

    Doug phillips-not one of the elect? Even funnier.

  130. Hester wrote:

    @ Bethany:

    Even if Phillips never achieves leadership of VF in name again, I do not think that he will remain uninvolved.

    He actually is still in leadership of Vision Forum, Inc., as well as Boerne Christian Assembly. He only resigned from Vision Forum Ministries, which is the nonprofit part. In other words, he’s still in control of his church and the moneymaking operation. Of course most people don’t know that “Vision Forum” is actually two organizations with similar names so they’ll just assume that he’s completely stepped down.

    Someone mentioned somewhere it would be interesting to know which VF entity owns his nice home with the indoor swimming pool. Wonder if it is the “parsonage” owned by the church? :o)

  131. Hester wrote:

    He actually is still in leadership of Vision Forum, Inc., as well as Boerne Christian Assembly.

    All the more reason to suspect that Doug Phillips, Esq.’s ‘repentance’ and ‘resignation’ were a complete and utter sham in order to con his followers into believing to “move along, nothing to see hear”. There are all too many followers willing to swallow it hook, line, and sinker – sadly, the hook’s in pretty deep in the followers of ‘Christian’ charlatans.

  132. @ TedS.:

    Could barely withstand swimming in that sea of testosterone. All that stereotypical macho male imagery… 😛

    I absolutely hated this line: “…he prayed for us and encouraged us to trust in the Lord, and allow the Lord more opportunity to bless my brides womb.” As though that’s all the man’s wife is good for.

    I want to shake him and say, “How about YOU bless her womb — and her entire well-being, for that matter — by using some contraception? Doug wasn’t “encouraging” you, brother. He was manipulating you, using you to further an agenda, one which has no basis in the Bible whatsoever.”

  133. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    I absolutely hated this line: “…he prayed for us and encouraged us to trust in the Lord, and allow the Lord more opportunity to bless my brides womb.” As though that’s all the man’s wife is good for.

    Breeding stock to Outbreed The Heathen.

    Question: Which Douggie was it who did “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”?
    This Douggie or the one with that Cult in Idaho?

  134. JeffT wrote:

    Hester wrote:

    He actually is still in leadership of Vision Forum, Inc., as well as Boerne Christian Assembly.

    All the more reason to suspect that Doug Phillips, Esq.’s ‘repentance’ and ‘resignation’ were a complete and utter sham in order to con his followers into believing to “move along, nothing to see hear”.

    And notice he was very eager to repeat “EMOTIONAL affair”. Because if there’s no meat-in-meat, It Isn’t Really Adultery. (It all depends on what the meaning of ‘affair’ is.) And if It Isn’t Really Adultery, the road is clear for Doug Esq’s Triumphal Return as Supreme Commander of His Own Gilead.

  135. dee wrote:

    Next thing we wil hear from the fractured Scripture boys is this. Well, David sinned with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. He then became a great king.Doug may have sinned with “whoever” bu didn’t kill anybody so imagine what kind of a great leader he will become! he will be greater than David.

    Some of the comments on SSB said this very thing. I’m utterly shocked they haven’t spoken up here, yet. Maybe your bug spray is keeping them at bay. 😉

  136. Anon 1 wrote:

    Someone mentioned somewhere it would be interesting to know which VF entity owns his nice home with the indoor swimming pool. Wonder if it is the “parsonage” owned by the church? 😮 )

    Is Doug Esq pouting because it isn’t 16,000 sq ft on 9 or 19 acres of wooded estate?

    After all, he’s a ManoGawd — he has to Keep Up With the Furticks.

  137. dee wrote:

    Next thing we wil hear from the fractured Scripture boys is this. Well, David sinned with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. He then became a great king.Doug may have sinned with “whoever” bu didn’t kill anybody so imagine what kind of a great leader he will become! he will be greater than David.

    Only reason Doug Esq didn’t kill anybody is that Honor Killings are illegal in this country (Dead Jezebel Harlots Tell No Tales). That will be another perq for Reconstructed Christian America/Republic of Holy Gilead.

    “There are some who ask whether what we do is legal or not. Before that happens, make sure WE are the ones who define what is legal and what is not.”
    — L Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology

  138. dee wrote:

    Having watched the game in many churches, I have come to the conclusion that, unless you have a reason to deeply trust the individuals in your church, you should confess to God and perhaps another person outside of the local church. I doubly mean this if your church is into “church discipline” which is ill defined and used by people who think they are above such sins.

    Or who have never been caught themselves.

    “Deliver me, LORD, from the mercy
    Of Saints Who Have Never Been Caught.”

  139. AnonFam wrote:

    Honestly… according to their doctrine…was this all predestined and out of his control? Or maybe he is not of the elect, as some Calvinists have speculated regarding rebellious teens. They cannot have it both ways, right? 🙁

    Doublethink, comrade, doublethink.

    I refer you to “The Principles of Newspeak” by G.Orwell (Appendix to Nineteen Eighty-Four).

  140. Hester wrote:

    Seriously, I hope the woman in question’s name is never released because of stuff like this. The minute it gets out who she is, it’ll be scarlet letter time and she’ll be forever immortalized and pilloried as The Satanic Whore Who Ruined Doug. (Because we all know Doug lost all agency the minute he first met her.) I mean really, for Pete’s sake – it’s even the correct letter and everything.

    Like I said above, in Semitic Tribal Culture (like that of the Biblical Patriarchs) that’s what Honor Killings were for. No more Satanic Whore, no more problem.

    “Because we all know Doug lost all agency the minute he first met her.” Like a Witch/Succubus in the Malleus Malefacarium? Or like Extreme Islam’s justification for the Burqa and total separation of women in locked harems? Or both?

    And as for Patriarch Daddy staying surrounded by young young women who shave him, didn’t the Biblical Patriarchs practice “plural marriage (TM)” with harems of young nubile secondary wives (restocking when the previous batch got too old)? Rank Hath Its Privileges.

  141. Am I the only person who is surprised that no one has yet defended/explained/justified him by bringing up the fact that virtually all of the most revered figures in the OT had multiple wives and/or concubines?

  142. dee wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:
    I have to say that the constant simpering of these ‘heads of house’ for female company, especially young female company,
    I am waiting for the big reveal of the woman involved. If what we have been told is true, it will highlight what you just said.

    Oh dear…what a surprise. I just hope she is not a blood relative of his, & is at least over 18- not that it makes much difference for these poor girls as they’re never allowed to mature into adults anyway….

  143. Bridget wrote:

    @ That Bad Dog:

    Haven’t heard that yet, but they sure are bringing up ‘King’ David quite a bit.

    Nevermind that King David would be in prison today. :o)

  144. @ Val:

    “…Doug Phillip’s church …Why don’t people just leave these churches? What would make them want to stay?”
    ++++++++++++++

    self-flagellation. it tends to make one feel productive. make you feel like what you’re doing counts more. feel like you’re really accomplishing something. no pain, no gain.

    like when going on a hike, adding a backpack full of rocks to make it count more.

    it’s almost easier than “i have worth. I have dignity. I am free. I can take responsibility for my own decisions and my own life.”

  145. elastigirl wrote:

    it’s almost easier than “i have worth. I have dignity. I am free. I can take responsibility for my own decisions and my own life.”

    You’re right. It’s far easier to say ‘this is what I was taught’ or ‘this is what the Bible teaches’ rather than listen to your own Jiminy Cricket within.

  146. Seneca wrote:

    There but for the Grace of God……
    I am not a better man than Doug Phillips.

    Back to almost the beginning— we tend to skip over one of Doug’s opening statements in the letter:
    “There has been serious sin in my life for which God has graciously brought me to repentance.”
    My question is — HOW? Through what effectual means was God gracious? Although I most want to hear from Seneca on this, all others feel free— you’re all so well-read, I’m sure some wise people have said edifying things in the topic. This is important, as we hear so many crying out, “Not our business! No need to know!” and when it comes to the salacious details of what Is is, they may have a point. But what WOULD be edifying, for certain, is if Doug clarified for us how God graciously brought him to repentance. Because, there but for the Grace of God…
    Since Doug is unlikely to clarify this crucial (cross) issue, we’ll likely need to wait until more comes out from other sources. In the meantime– what are the possibilities and what is the likelihood? My uneducated opinion follows.
    A: Supernatural divine intervention. Doug was knocked off his high horse by a blinding light on the road to Vegas, graciously bringing him to repentance just before biblical knowing might ake place. Could happen.
    B: Bible study and prayer. Doug was meditating during his quiet time and a certain verse cut him to the heart. After many other quiet times and verses during a “lengthy” relationship. Could happen.
    C: Word and sacrament. Doug was convicted by a sermon (after preaching many others during the lengthy relationship) or while examining his heart for communion. Could happen.
    D: Caught and confronted. Some fallible human being(s), no better woman or men than he, caught him, confronted him, maybe yelled at him– maybe threw something. Could happen. Happens all the time.
    Didn’t Jimmy Swaggart have some nemesis-fellow-evangelist-sinner he was at odds with, who snapped pictures of him with the prostitute? And through this sinful guy, not a better man, whom Jimmy didn’t even like, God graciously brought him to repentance, as I remember. I do remember seeing him on stage repenting very publicly and tearfully and apologizing to Mrs S. I do remember having sent Jimmy a letter a couple years before– begging him to just STOP already. About money– not sex. Chances are he never read it. Went in the Non-Donation round file.

  147. Many thanks to Julie Anne of SSB for finding Doug Phillips, Esq.’s own test for true repentance:

    “Interestingly, just recently, in August of 2013, Doug Phillips himself wrote on the topic of repentance in a blog article. Here is an excerpt:”

    Restitution: Those who experience godly sorrow and true repentance will desire to make restitution to the victim. There is a spiritual debt to God himself which they can never pay and which only the blood of Christ will satisfy. But there is a temporal debt to their fellow man which they must be willing to pay. It is not enough that they will cease and desist from the wrongdoing. They will do whatever is necessary to heal those they have injured by restoring to them what they have taken. Godly sorrow produces such compassion for the injured party that the penitent man aches to bring health and wholeness to those he has injured.

    I wholeheartedly endorse this view as being exactly what the Bible expects of a true Christian. Has, or will, Doug Phillips, Esq. live up to this? Haven’t heard a word from his camp on that. If he does not live up to this instruction, then he is just another sociopathic, arrogant, and oppressive con man.

  148. @ noturniptruck:

    You may hear someone’s name and that’s all you hear about and then they disappear (aka Voddie, Geoff Botkin, etc.)

    Not sure when Geoff and Voddie “disappeared” since they’ve all been openly promoted by Vision Forum for a number of years…?

  149. @ dee:

    Satan, on the run from Phillips advances, dressed up a Jezebel and made her flaunt herself in front of Phillips. Phillips, exhausted from the battle, took one look and said “It’s time for some whoopee.”

    Most hilarious mental image of my day so far.

  150. Has anyone seen this? http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/11/03/doug-phillips-question-about-pastoral-position-timeline-of-events-and-understanding-true-repentance/
    It appears that Phillips resigned from his teaching position at BCA several months ago (according to Voddie Baucham). As Julie Anne points out, this raises questions about why, if the BCA resignation was related to his affair, did Phillips continue with VF Min until now, and continue to speak at events (such as one in September on fatherhood).

  151. dee wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:
    I have to say that the constant simpering of these ‘heads of house’ for female company, especially young female company,
    I am waiting for the big reveal of the woman involved. If what we have been told is true, it will highlight what you just said.

    Ah, yes. And Voddie Baucham preaches this stuff, too. (I’ve listened to enough of Voddie to know he is NOT talking about incest, but this type of thinking is messed up.) Voddie from 2009:

    “A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead, they go find a substitute daughter, You’ve seen it! We’ve all seen it! These OLD GUYS! Going and finding substitute daughters. Why? Why? We don’t understand what love is, folks.”

    Karen at thatmom covered this thoroughly:
    http://www.thatmom.com/2009/11/19/voddie-baucham-explains-the-video-clip-on-older-men-yearning-for-younger-women/

  152. Nancy wrote:

    formerly anonymous wrote
    Did nobody think to ask this obviously controlling manipulator why, exactly, would it be “courageous” for a father to let some other man tell him what to do in his own house? Why would it be “noble” for a mother to fail to protect her children against abuse? … Why would ignorance and naiveté be seen as virtuous for either boys or girls? That is not virtue, it is crippling victimization…
    That segment of the church who are not fooled by this need to speak up regardless of what they are accused of being or doing. (I need to send the TWW ladies some flowers or something.) And all the people who have been hurt who stand up and fight back… now there is courage and nobility and virtue.

    YES! YES! YES!

  153. “romantic and affectionate”

    Doesn’t that seem like a WEIRD thing to say in this instance in the description of his evil/sins ??? Such sweet adjectives seem somehow WRONG in a confession, in my thoughts.

  154. @ AnonFam:

    The VF crowd is known for speaking with a 19th century mindset. The books and literature they promote is all in this language.

  155. Bridget wrote:

    @ AnonFam:
    The VF crowd is known for speaking with a 19th century mindset. The books and literature they promote is all in this language.

    God sees it as sin, alienation of affection, looking and looking and looking upon a woman with lust (aka adultery). Giving this other woman his heart. VERY humiliating to his wife to say the least. 🙁

  156. Elizabeth B is 26. She was born right about the same time as my oldest. I remember Vickie as sweet, resourceful, contented, hospitable, helpful, devoted and everything else good. They lived a very simple lifestyle, nothing fancy. Geoff was always intense about what he believed. I did not always agree with him but I respected that. This was in the Great Commission Church when he was an assistant to Jim McCotter – before the New Zealand years.

  157. Beakerj wrote:

    I just hope she is not a blood relative of his, & is at least over 18-

    let me assure you, there is one more category that you did not mention and it will be a corker. It relates to young women who are not encouraged to go to college and are told to be helpers.

  158. I have read most of the comments but I don’t understand. Is Phillips a PASTOR or an elder, or what type of leader is he for his church? Shouldn’t he step down from all spiritual leadership? THAT, to me, voluntarily, would be the hallmark of TRUE repentance. Also, coming out yourself, not being FOUND OUT. I feel sorry for his wife but personally she put herself out there to be trampled on….that is the consequence of an overly subsurvient view of womanhood. I am sure he is quite intimidating. People, pray for his wife to be wise, bold and discerning. She needs it.

  159. Bethany wrote:

    It appears that Phillips resigned from his teaching position at BCA several months ago (according to Voddie Baucham).

    There is far more to this story. And to pretend that it is just a little star crossed grazing and two hands meeting under a table for squeeze is laughable. The people in the church know the story. i can assure you that this wasn’t a short term fling.

    The people who concealed this are as much to blame as the ones involved.

  160. Katie wrote:

    would it be “courageous” for a father to let some other man tell him what to do in his own hous

    Lots of things went on in these patriarchal homes…

  161. @ AnonFam:

    Couldn’t agree more with you! The language simply tries to make it all more palatable, almost sweet sounding – yuck! Using that language makes all the more sickening to me.

  162. Fact: ”…. the greatest witness a man could offer for Jesus Christ is not what he knows, but how he lives his life as a father and a husband” (Doug Phillips, from the bio formerly on his website).

    Actually, the quote is still on his website.

  163. dee wrote:

    let me assure you, there is one more category that you did not mention and it will be a corker. It relates to young women who are not encouraged to go to college and are told to be helpers.

    Commanders’ Handmaids?

  164. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    let me assure you, there is one more category that you did not mention and it will be a corker. It relates to young women who are not encouraged to go to college and are told to be helpers.

    Commanders’ Handmaids?

    The Au Pair most likely which in that world is a young girl from the movement who works for free (room and board) to be near to the great guru and learn the mommy trade.

  165. Whatcom mom wrote:

    Fact: ”…. the greatest witness a man could offer for Jesus Christ is not what he knows, but how he lives his life as a father and a husband” (Doug Phillips, from the bio formerly on his website).
    Actually, the quote is still on his website.

    Good to know– couldn’t find it again a couple days ago. Although I think it’s unbiblical, maybe he’ll remember it if he decides to continue or resume ministry.

  166. Anon 1 wrote:

    The Au Pair

    So, are these au pairs “protected” from the world by working for these patriarchal men? I mean, could there actually be as much sin in the home as there are in colleges?

  167. Interesting quote from an article on Vision Forums website entitled ,”True Repentence”, dated August 7th of this year: “But repentance must be sincere. It must spring from “godly sorrow.” Too often “repentance” is the experience of offering a half-hearted and self-serving apology to God and man, mixed with large amounts of blame-shifting, pride, and a desire to be done with the whole matter so you don’t ever have to deal with it again. It is the “I have said I am sorry on my terms and in my way, and there is nothing more I need to do, so if that is not good enough for you, then you are the one in sin” attitude.

  168. Don’t know the guy, but have noticed that you guys have written about him over time.

    I am a big fan of homeschooling – legally. That is, I believe it is vitally important that parents retain control over decisions regarding their childrens’ education, including homeschooling.

    In practice, what I have seen causes me concern. Not just for homeschooling families, but for the church. I believe that when a church is made up primarily of homeschooling families, that church had better work extra hard to come up with some ways for the church and those families to interact with the world around them.

    I read the statement, and have the same doubts about this being the whole story. Not sure I trust it.

    But I will say it was refreshing to see somene step down from leadership instead of claiming they are like David, who got to “keep his kingdom.” Yes, I have heard such references in the past.

    Very sad. Time will tell.

  169. justabeliever wrote:

    I have read most of the comments but I don’t understand. Is Phillips a PASTOR or an elder, or what type of leader is he for his church? Shouldn’t he step down from all spiritual leadership? THAT, to me, voluntarily, would be the hallmark of TRUE repentance.

    That is exactly what I was wanting to find out and apparently Voddie Baucham has the scoop as he posted it on his public Facebook page in a response twice on Saturday. Baucham stated that he has stepped down as elder months ago. Someone on my blog said he stepped down in February. I cannot verify that, but it lines up with Baucham’s statement. I have the screenshot of Baucham’s response on my current blog post.

    Phillips’ church is a family-integrated church. They usually have teaching elders which is what they call pastors. In the FICs I’m familiar with, there is no primary elder, they all serve at the same authority level. At Boerne Christian Assembly, Phillips was listed (and currently listed) as one of two elders.

  170. dee wrote:

    Anon 1 wrote:

    The Au Pair

    So, are these au pairs “protected” from the world by working for these patriarchal men? I mean, could there actually be as much sin in the home as there are in colleges?

    I am not a good person to ask right now. I just read “I Fired God” and read that an IFB pastor who runs a well known forum repeatedly molested his sisters when they were growing up along with their dad. So, I would be concerned with an au pair being in a large patriarchal family were there are even teen boys who have been taught these things about women.

  171. Dave A A wrote:

    Seneca wrote:
    There but for the Grace of God……

    I am not a better man than Doug Phillips.

    Back to almost the beginning— we tend to skip over one of Doug’s opening statements in the letter:

    “There has been serious sin in my life for which God has graciously brought me to repentance.”

    My question is — HOW? Through what effectual means was God gracious? Although I most want to hear from Seneca on this, all others feel free

    Dave, I’m not sure I understood your question. Clarify?

  172. Anon 1 wrote:

    I am not a good person to ask right now. I just read “I Fired God” and read that an IFB pastor who runs a well known forum repeatedly molested his sisters when they were growing up along with their dad. So, I would be concerned with an au pair being in a large patriarchal family were there are even teen boys who have been taught these things about women.

    That forum is Sharperiron, and its founder is Jason Janz, son of Bart Janz: http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=6098

  173. Speaking of Jason Janz, here he is with his friend Mark Dever, representing a convergence of fundamentalism and neocalvinism: http://sharperiron.org/2006/05/03/mark-dever-the-sharperiron-interview

    As for Doug Phillips, he is also an Independent Baptist, and I have for a while been thinking that he possibly represents a convergence of Independent Baptist Fundamentalism (IFB) with Reconstructionism/Theonomy.

    Phillips also betrays the unmistakable influence of Bill Gothard (popular with the IFB), and here is a picture of Phillips with Gothard: http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2007/05/30/cult-watch-ministry-publishes-article-exposing-doug-phillips/

    For more info, search “Gothard” at Jen’s Jems.

  174. @ Seneca:
    Phillips said God graciously brought him to repentance. But God uses means, ways agency etc. When someone says God brought grace unto repentance, what ways does he usually think God did this? Miracle? Study and prayer? Preaching and sacraments within church gatherings, or being caught and corrected by other people, who SAID SOMETHING to him?

  175. Nicholas wrote:

    Anon 1 wrote:
    I am not a good person to ask right now. I just read “I Fired God” and read that an IFB pastor who runs a well known forum repeatedly molested his sisters when they were growing up along with their dad. So, I would be concerned with an au pair being in a large patriarchal family were there are even teen boys who have been taught these things about women.
    That forum is Sharperiron, and its founder is Jason Janz, son of Bart Janz: http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=6098

    One Jeri’s own responses to her own post.
    “I don’t have documentary evidence, Nicholas. Even Jason was confessing to something he had done as a minor. And it was later disputed that he had even admitted the extent of what he is alleged to have done. My source was Melissa, who since then has been non-credible on other points. There’s not enough evidence for me to post any of them, though my guess is that Bart would the person of most significant interest. In fact, I may take this post down.” [ Apparently she didn’t take the post down but in another of her own comments suggested the accusing daughter might have some credibility issues.”

  176. @ Seneca:

    Defending Doug Phillips and Bart Janz? You better be trolling, my friend.

    Also from Jeri Massi: http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=13017

    “I do believe, by the way, that Bart Janz abused his kids. I do think Jocelyn was abused over a long period of time. I have no doubt of that. The individual details of her life that she provides, for me, fall under that umbrella of “This is Jocelyn talking, so be advised it may not be entirely accurate.” But if I look at the account from a long view, I believe it. Bart’s sermons, taken on their own, would show most normal people that he is a brute, at the very least. The book provides excerpts.”

  177. Nicholas wrote:

    @ Seneca:
    Defending Doug Phillips and Bart Janz? You better be trolling, my friend.
    Also from Jeri Massi: http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=13017
    “I do believe, by the way, that Bart Janz abused his kids. I do think Jocelyn was abused over a long period of time. I have no doubt of that. The individual details of her life that she provides, for me, fall under that umbrella of “This is Jocelyn talking, so be advised it may not be entirely accurate.” But if I look at the account from a long view, I believe it. Bart’s sermons, taken on their own, would show most normal people that he is a brute, at the very least. The book provides excerpts.”

    Nicholas wrote:

    @ Seneca:

    “I do believe, by the way, that Bart Janz abused his kids. I do think Jocelyn was abused over a long period of time. I have no doubt of that. The individual details of her life that she provides, for me, fall under that umbrella of “This is Jocelyn talking, so be advised it may not be entirely accurate.” But if I look at the account from a long view, I believe it. Bart’s sermons, taken on their own, would show most normal people that he is a brute, at the very least. The book provides excerpts.”

    Doug Phillips has admitted to infidelity. It is an admission many believers could make. I don’t know a thing about Bart Janz. But Doug Phillips has admitted to grevious sin.

  178. @ Nicholas:

    Is Doug really Baptist? I haven’t yet caught him tipping his hand on his views on infant baptism so I wasn’t sure. Lots of his friends (Sproul Jr., etc.) seem to be some variety of ultra-conservative Presbyterian.

  179. Anon 1 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    let me assure you, there is one more category that you did not mention and it will be a corker. It relates to young women who are not encouraged to go to college and are told to be helpers.

    Commanders’ Handmaids?

    The Au Pair most likely which in that world is a young girl from the movement who works for free (room and board) to be near to the great guru and learn the mommy trade.

    Commanders’ Handmaids.

    Or Commanders’ Sons Practice Handmaids.

  180. M. Joy wrote:

    The patriarchs & co are delusional if they think a male authority/covering over their household will keep sin out. So much for Doug’s 200 year plan for “passing on a legacy of godly experiences and wisdom to their children.”

    So much for the Thousand-Year Reich.

    So much for True Communism being Forever.

  181. dee wrote:

    Katie wrote:

    would it be “courageous” for a father to let some other man tell him what to do in his own hous

    Lots of things went on in these patriarchal homes…

    Including Incest and Sexual Predation?

    After all, the Patriarch’s Word is Law (by Divine Right) and the Alpha Male has dibs on ALL females within and without.

  182. Praying this week that He will set all the captives free — there are plenty of people in Doug’s church who must have holes in their heads and hearts right now — rightfully so. Hoping for the Lord to shed bright, bright, disinfecting sunshine on the VF and their acolytes. He rescued me from delusional thinking through traumatic circumstances — not the most fun thing, but sometimes necessary.

  183. @ Erik:

    It is so true in many aspects, I looked for certainty in the Bible for years, and scoffed at the idea of getting upset with various OT verses (well, new covenant now, sucks to be them) or contradicting verses (well, this is just that verse said a different way) or no one pays any attention to that verse, look at these verses, they are the clear ones.

    When I started reading Rachel’s blog, I skimmed the parts that questioned various OT stories of brutality causing doubt with my own crafted reading of those verses. But, I read her, and her commenters and her links and began to realize our whole Evangelical view of the Bible being a compact, perfect life-guide seamlessly transitioning from the OT to the New needed some serious re-evaluating. Those hard to read OT verses are there, and dwelling on them raises more questions then I was previously comfortable with. Luckily, I also learned many other people had wrestled and written about those verses and my faith grew! Staring uncertainty in the face helped strengthen my faith, not diminish it.

    Yet, I see the Gospel Coalition’s grasp on “getting the Bible right” by only listening to ‘our group, our views and doing what we say’ as weakening, and they don’t manage uncertainty well, they don’t manage their weakening influence on Evangelicalism well, they don’t have the faith to say “I disagree with Rachel, but I will loving show why I think she is wrong”, no, they demonize her, tell everyone not to listen to her, lie about the content of her book (Kathy Keller post, Owen Strachan post and CBMW posts – random authors). Their fear shows, their lack of faith shows too, for if they had strong faith, it would cast out the fear they cannot fully conceal. Rachel is more right than they can admit. Her books pose a threat to their constructed world-view. She raises questions they can’t answer, so they ban her, shove her queries under a rug, belittle her, question her faith – yet it is their faith (certainty) people are more likely to wonder about.

    Rachel is also incredibly gracious to them. The put her through the wringer when she isn’t, but overall, she just reworks her writing to again politely ask them to answer her queries, yet they respond with dead silence. They have no answers, and shortly after, a woman over on CBMW or somewhere will be linked to from their site who finds only straw men in her arguments, no substance. Sigh. Rachel is far closer to the truth than they can handle. Authority is really just an illusion. I often criticized the Charismatics for claiming God told them (fill in the blank) as their way to justify their worldly choices. Now, I also criticize the Neo-Cals for claiming Authority where they only have their own imaginary position and God is as much in it as He is in the Charismatic’s “God told me” statements.

    Until a leader actually raises the dead, remains celibate, is willing to die for his congregation, gives all his money to the poor, etc. He will never be an apostle to me, and, therefore, will never have any God-given “authority” over another human being. Just human authority, and we all know what Jesus said about grasping at human authority and “lording it over” others.

    Not that I am against church positions, it is just that I hold them as having about as much authority as I do over my elementary students – just enough to get the job done, but not invasive or power-trippy.

  184. So you are equating that your daughters have gotten their education and that is the most important thing in life. What does scripture say?.

  185. First time I read this website. My observations: This entire website seems like a gossip machine. The national enquirer of the reformed world. Why don’t you discuss what scripture says?

  186. @ Dave A A:
    But, it seemed they were in “trouble” with the church so soon after arriving – I may have misread the timeline, but it seemed like a few months into attending she was getting berated by Doug Phillips and his weirdly-named wife (Beall – as in Baal? or Be-All?). If I was in a church for a grand total of 3 months and got treated that way, I’d be off to a different church, no regrets.

    Also, who cares if the church thought the wife made the decision? You wouldn’t be back to hear the comments anyways.

    And, why couldn’t she and the kids just start going somewhere else, they were in their own car most Sundays – if her husband wanted to go, he could have gone and she could have just church hopped. If he hassled her, she could have called the police.

    I just don’t get how people who live in a country that prides itself of freedom and liberty can fall so far under the spell of authoritarian leaders. It just baffles me. Try that in Canada. Good luck. We have very few successful mega churches in Canada – most are full of recent immigrants from other parts of the world. Church just reach critical mass, then people move on. People can’t be manipulated the same way.

    Our old church did a membership class my husband attended. It was the first class the pastor tried to add two things above the denominational membership statement. One was the person would tithe 10% to the church and the other was the people would support the leadership in being sexist (not letting women be elders). As an aside, the denomination was thinking of ordaining women, so it may have been in response to that. Anyhow, we were friends with the couple who would look over the applications and approve them. Not ONE person from that class chose to join. I was proud of them. Those two extra additions to the statement were idiotic, and even the woman who had just left a local Sovereign Grace church didn’t sign, thanks to my husband and other friends discussing it and totally shooting the additions down (the elder couldn’t get a word in edgewise to turn the topic back to ‘lets all kumbya with the pastor and sign it’, they got the ex-SGM women really reconsidering complementarian, surprised so many Christians felt this way (she was a new Christian from a rougher background and had been taught it was all part and parcel).

    I decided it must be an American thing that a pastor says “don’t talk about it” and people actually follow them. In Canada, don’t talk about it would be “after I tell my first 100 friends not to say anything I will say nothing” and everyone will know in about half an hour anyways. I think if a pastor said to someone, I forbid you to talk about it, that would be the fastest way to have everyone talking about that pastors cultish personality. If I got accused of gossip, I would be like “Yeah, but what the pastor did cannot be kept secret, so God will forgive me, like Rehab the prostitute, she had to lie to the army, but it was for God, so it was an non-counting sin.” Quieter people would just leave the church. No one would put up with being told what to do like that. Everyone would be saying “cult, cult”. Not that it never happens, but it would never work for the church hopping, checking this place out crowd. Authoritarianism and cult are intertwined in most people’s thinking. Heck, in my province, I can take my boss to court if she bullies me – so imagine what we could do to pastors like that, we would just go get the staff on our side and voila, pastor before the judge. Pastors are forced to be nice by law 🙂 You should really adopt some of our labour laws, giving workers rights prevents push-overs from falling prey. It also gives the underdogs spines. It is very helpful to have a population that all have strong rights – from the Nannies to the McDonalds workers, everyone knows they can’t be belittled at work, that mentality spills over into church. Parishioners don’t take crap from pastors as easily.

  187. Julie Anne wrote:

    In the FICs I’m familiar with, there is no primary elder, they all serve at the same authority level.

    Well at least they got one thing right.
    I cringe whenever I see a church website that says “lead” pastor.

    But how could things go so wrong?

  188. Jeff Crippen wrote:

    Whenever someone like this, or really anyone, boldly and publicly announces their own God-give repentance, it is a sure sign they are not repentant. Add into the formula that this guy minimizes his sin (“didn’t know her in the biblical sense”), and the announcement that his lucky wife and children are now going to be the targets of his “nurturing,” and you’ve got every reason to believe genuine repentance has not happened. And time will bring out the truth.

  189. Dave A A wrote:

    @ Seneca:
    Phillips said God graciously brought him to repentance. But God uses means, ways agency etc. When someone says God brought grace unto repentance, what ways does he usually think God did this? Miracle? Study and prayer? Preaching and sacraments within church gatherings, or being caught and corrected by other people, who SAID SOMETHING to him?

    Oh I think he was caught – somebody said this can’t got on and pulled the plug on him. And frankly, his repentance at this stage may be pretty shallow. I’m not inclined to whitewash Phillips. BUT, I’m not a better man than he is. That’s all I ever said.

  190. At the risk of being misunderstood, this is a very American thing. What I mean by that is American evangelicals, when they go in for something, really go for it. So in my experience, when they support someone financially, they are generous – I have in mind a British ministry that only really flourished when the mean Brits were taken over by generous Americans in financing it.

    The negative side is seen in going overboard, taking truths to extremes. So we had the shepherding movement, the truth of submission to elders turned into a control-freak’s paradise. (I’ve had personal damage from this doctrine.)

    God’s promises to meet our needs ends up as WoF etc.

    In this case too, this ministry seems to have taken the general biblical family framework, and them worked out how to live this out in minute, prescriptive detail, making women second class citizens of the kingdom, and fearful of children being contaminated by the world.

    Any NT balance seems to get lost in men ruling the roost like secular managers, or an egalitarianism that completely seeks to remove any differences in male/female roles.

    I have read the NT many thousands of times, but this whole thing of daughters staying at home until I approve a suitable husband is very strange to my ears. If you make them into hermits, they are likely to stay that way.

  191. Small Change: “Mankind Has A Choice?”

    hmmm…

    Doug Phillips, the President of Vision Forum Ministries, made a ‘personal choice’.

    (in this very sad context) …a bad one.

    Huh?

    “…And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,  backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” ~ New Testament; Romans 1:28-32

    A Scriptural Maximum: Mankind chooses to dis-regard God, and His ways, by ‘personal choice’. 

    What?

    (…and Yes, John Calvin forgot to really emphasize this.  -sadface- )

    huh?

    ARE U proclaiming the truth of Jesus Christ, to the ends of the earth?

     ‘And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world…’ but the world doesn’t want to acknowledge the truth, ‘men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.’ John 3:19

    …we do this (or not) by ‘personal choice’ as well.

    imagine dat?!?

    Acknowledgement of the truth…is a personal choice!

    Following the truth…is a personal choice Too!

    Propagation of the truth of Jesus Christ is a ‘personal choice’ as well!

    Make the right one.

    Skreeeeeeeeetch!

    …the hollowed halls of eternity for the many rests in this eventful  decision.

    the future holds change….make it good change.

    as apposed to ‘small change’.

    *

    “I see the King of glory,
    Coming on the clouds with fire,
    The whole earth shakes, the whole earth shakes…

    I see His love and mercy,
    Washing over all our sin,
    The people sing, the people sing!

    I see a generation,
    Rising up to take the place,
    With selfless faith, with selfless faith…

    I see a near revival,
    Stirring as we pray and seek,
    We’re on our knees, we’re on our knees!

    Heal my heart and make it clean,
    Open up my eyes to the things unseen,
    Show me how to love like You have loved me!

    Break my heart for what breaks Yours,
    Everything I am for Your Kingdom’s cause,
    As I walk from earth into eternity…

    Hosanna, hosanna…
    Hosanna in the highest! ”  [1]

    Sopy 
    ___
    [1] Inspiration Relief:  Hillsong  United – “Hosanna” Songwriter: Kirk Franklin,  Hosanna lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group. (U.S. title 17 fair use; all rights reserved)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgJYNlDhY-4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Comic Reliief: “Bohemian Rhapsody” – UC Men’s Octet…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QnFceKk0xc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  192. Seneca wrote:

    Nicholas wrote:

    Anon 1 wrote:
    I am not a good person to ask right now. I just read “I Fired God” and read that an IFB pastor who runs a well known forum repeatedly molested his sisters when they were growing up along with their dad. So, I would be concerned with an au pair being in a large patriarchal family were there are even teen boys who have been taught these things about women.
    That forum is Sharperiron, and its founder is Jason Janz, son of Bart Janz: http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=6098

    One Jeri’s own responses to her own post.
    “I don’t have documentary evidence, Nicholas. Even Jason was confessing to something he had done as a minor. And it was later disputed that he had even admitted the extent of what he is alleged to have done. My source was Melissa, who since then has been non-credible on other points. There’s not enough evidence for me to post any of them, though my guess is that Bart would the person of most significant interest. In fact, I may take this post down.” [ Apparently she didn’t take the post down but in another of her own comments suggested the accusing daughter might have some credibility issues.”

    Seneca, I am amazed that women raised up in that environment can function at all outside of it. I have no idea if Jeri is “credible”, either. Isn’t she still pro Bob Jones? I have no idea if Jason Janz is credible. Isn’t he still IFB? In that environment calling a female victim not credible is one of the oldest tricks in their playbook. My only response can be that if she can even function at all outside that legalistic lying hell she was raised in, how utterly amazing.

    Let’s say that only 10% of her book is true, that is enough hell for one child to be raised in. Not to mention criminal.

  193. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “Excessive scrupulosity?” Really? In RCIA they taught us that you guys were supposed to avoid the near occasion of sin. In this case, how could anybody determine what was going on in somebody else’s mind or what might be to somebody else the near occasion of sin? And if kissing etc some woman other than his wife puts him in the position of lusting after her, and if Jesus is correct that lust is adultery, then he would have the absolute obligation to keep his hands off women other than his wife. Absolute obligation if this became an occasion of lusting after someone. We were also taught that only the priest would determine what was and what was not scrupulosity. You and our catechist are certainly not in agreement on this issue.

    And how did he know there were “heathens” there? By some bad behavior? Maybe he wanted to avoid having to watch that. Why should anybody sit around and watch other people’s mess, heathen or not? I was certainly taught as a child to just make myself scarce when people started some behavior that I thought was not appropriate, be it for religious or other reasons, (as opposed to silently watching and/or self-righteously objecting out loud.) We were even taught as SBC Baptist children that St. Thomas Moore was correct that silence gives consent, and that continuing to participate even by just watching. while saying and doing nothing, was consent. (He used it in the opposite way in his defense, but the principle remains the same.) There are literally millions of Americans who were either raised that way or who are currently part of a church/denomination or social group that believes in the exact kind of behavior that Cameron is practicing, even if we do not do it ourself to the extent that we think we should. Perhaps that contributes to some of his popularity, that he actually practices what we were taught but do not always do, and that he does it in the face of public ridicule. IMO that does say something about his strength of character, and perhaps something about how well he may know his audience.

    Maybe he had other things to do and seized the opportunity. Maybe, like some public people, he has some medical condition that requires rest and that is being kept secret from the public. Maybe he does not do good work when he is tired and irritable. Maybe he has other stuff in his life that needs attention and he was busy with other stuff. My point is: there could be lots of reasons for it, including your own church’s teaching about when to get out of Dodge, so to speak.

    I am neither a fan nor a critic of Cameron’s work. Except that the old saying is that it takes them all to win them all, and if he is effective in doing that and is not outside “orthodox” christianity of whatever flavor, then it really does not much matter what I think about it.

    Now I am going to rant and rave about the slinging around of psych terms heedlessly and carelessly. Neurotic? Phobia? OCD? Have you been following the brouhaha about the over diagnosis of OCD in children with ADHD? It is an ongoing medical scandal. It seems to be popular with non-psychiatrist health care providers, apparently as an excuse to prescribe meds otherwise off-label for some kids. This, along with the “diagnosing” of ADHD and now OCD by parents and teachers and social workers has blossomed into a public scandal even mentioned in the average media. I assume you are not doing that, but nevertheless I intend to raise my voice in opposition to the assigning of any diagnosis, psychiatric or otherwise, in the absence of the medical credentials necessary to do so.

    And while I am at it, you need to get a copy (even an out-of-date one) of the DSM and note that behaviors that are consistent with one’s culture are treated differently in psychiatric evaluation than behaviors that are not consistent with one’s culture. Cameron seems to have left one culture (his prior to conversion lifestyle) and aligned with another culture (the way a lot of us were raised) and that must be taken into account when evaluating his behavior.

    If you are either a psychiatrist or a catholic priest, then I apologize. Otherwise, I do not.

  194. @ Ken:

    Your comment is SPOT ON! Thanks for this insightful analysis, and I’m sorry you were hurt by the shepherding nonsense.

  195. Julie Anne wrote:

    Dee and Deb:
    Here is a recent comment from The Doug Wilson on his post (linked above):
    All, I corrected my spelling of Doug Phillip’s name. Apologies to all, and this also lets the Wartburg Watch be right about something. Win/win.

    Not to nitpick too much, but this sort of thing drives me nuts. It’s not “Doug Phillip’s name.”

    If the singular is Phillips (e.g. Doug Phillips), the singular possessive is Phillips’ or Phillips’s (either is acceptable).

    Plural: Phillipses (e.g. the Phillipses, Doug and Beall)

    Plural possessive: Phillipses’ (e.g. the Phillipses’ house)

    The only time “Phillip’s” would be used if you were referring to the possessive form of the name Phillip.

    I’m reminded of this every time the Duggar family drop in on “the Bates.” No, you visit the Bates family or the Bateses.

  196. @ rj: The most important thing in life is finding Jesus and loving your fellow man. And God gives each of us talents with which to serve him. My daughter is a nurse in the Surgical Trauma ICU as a major university. She loves jesus and loves her fellow man and serve Him beautifully.

    You have been sucked into a machine that says women can only work at home since they will be protected in that environment. What a pile of horse manure! Doug Phillips has adequately demonstrated the very real dangers of his supposed “solution.” He took advantage of a woman and did so in a protected environment, aided and abetted by beliefs as demonstrated in your next comment.

  197. @ notastepfordsheep:

    Too funny! The original fix was simply to add an additional ‘l’ to Phillips. It’s a bit odd that the Wilson clan didn’t catch the possessive malfunction . . . the Wilson’s being geeks of writing and all 😉

  198. rj wrote:

    This entire website seems like a gossip machine

    ROFL. Your statement merely reflects the secrecy that is essential to the abuses that are found in movements like Vision Forum.

    You want the world to look at your “solutions” to make a better society. You hold film festivals, speak publicly and hob nob with some unsuspecting politicians. Then you have the nerve to tell us to close our eyes to the very realities of your movement?

    Jesus says to let your light shine before men. You are the light on the hill. You guys have built underground bunkers to hide what you do not want us to see. But, the Lord has exposed some very serious flaws. Your worn out accusations of gossip worked fine in a small community with rigid controls. It does not fly in the real world.

    rj wrote:

    Why don’t you discuss what scripture says?

    And since you claim to have read our blog, why don’t yo acknowledge that we do discuss what Scripture says. Not only do we have an E Church and with real sermons, we have a Bible reading program, designed to get people through the Bible in little over a year. Not bad for a gossip column.

  199. @ rj:
    They/we do.

    If you don’t like it, leave. I’m assuming your handle is a hint at what teachers tickle your ears.

    Also good education is essential to warding off the ilk that utter ignorance brings… People like Doug Phillips and organizations like the VF.

  200. rj wrote:

    First time I read this website. My observations: This entire website seems like a gossip machine. The national enquirer of the reformed world. Why don’t you discuss what scripture says?

    Note that besides accusing us all of “gossip” (don’t know why he didn’t use “bitter”), rj’s favorite word seems to be “Scripture”.

    From my time in a shepherding group, “Scripture(TM)” = “Ees Party Line, Comrades”.

    And when I hear the word (and DON’T gag on it), my first impression until proven otherwise is:
    doubleplusgoodthink INGSOC,
    doubleplusbellyfeel INGSOC,
    doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC.

  201. Anon wrote:

    I cringe whenever I see a church website that says “lead” pastor.

    But how could things go so wrong?

    Even if there is no “lead pastor”/”head apostle”/dictator/cult leader, a group of “elders” can take up the slack with groupthink.

    That cultish “fellowship” that messed me up during the Seventies had no single cult leader (unless you count an absentee Hal Lindsay), but a loose group of “elders” (most of them in their early 20s).

  202. @ rj:

    Be glad to. Which scripture reference did you have in mind? We have baptists, lutherans, catholics and others here. Ought to be an interesting exchange of ideas. Thanks for reminding us of that.

  203. @ Anon 1:

    Jeri Massi is not pro-BJU, and hasn’t been since she left fundamentalism. She has documented many abuse cases connected to BJU. The issues between Massi and Zichterman are personal, since Zichterman first began attacking Massi on Facebook. Such feuds should be ignored by the objective observer.

    Seneca Griggs is only out to defend whoever is being discussed at TWW, as he always does.

  204. My Defense of Doug Phillips?

    DOUG PHILLIPS is guilty of infidelity. It may or may not involve him “dropping trow.” He says not. I don’t suppose we’ll ever know.

    It was right that he step down from spiritual leadership.

    Whether or not he is truly repentant is probably known only by God.

  205. @ rj:
    There are some reformed Christians here, in the since of practicing a “reformed theology,” including some Calvinists, and occasionally a hyper-Calvinist or two. There are many more who are evangelical but not “reformed”, a few of whom claim to be Arminian. There are some here who are pre-millenial, some post-millenial, and some who, having studied scripture intensely, don’t know which to believe and don’t find it matters a lot to them (me included, so I facetiously call myself either amillenial or bimillenial!)

    There are many here to read the Bible intensely, including going back to the Greek and Hebrew in order to discern how the passage has been mistranslated and/or mmisinterpreted once in English, but many, so as to get to the truth intended by the original writer, as inspired by the Holy Spirit, to the extent possible, based on the earliest available manuscripts, since we do not have the “original autographs”.

    So this is not a gossip sheet, nor is it “the Enquirer for the reformed”.

    However, it is focused on the abuses that occur in Christianity in this country, including sexual abuse of children and the cover-ups of that abuse, the abuse of the pulpit by false teaching and the use of the pulpit to exert authoritarian control over those in the pews, and the financial abuse of those who give to the church by greedy pastors, as well as sexual abuse of the claimed authority of church “leaders” taking advantage of members, employees, staff and perhaps their spouses. Your comment suggests that you are defending one or more of the above sins of your favorite preacher, teacher or pastor. That you do suggests you need to make a more in-depth inquiry regarding that person and their behavior. The blog queens on this site have not been proved wrong in their posts except for minor details that they then corrected and apologized. Few major national or religious news outlets can claim the same.

  206. @ Deb:

    Thanks for your reply – I feel encouraged!

    The ‘damage’ done by shepherding in my case was not so much being hurt as the tendency to infantalise. As someone who doesn’t necessarily find making decisions easy in the first place, I found this can be made worse if you constantly feel the need to check what you are doing is right with someone ‘covering’ you. It is the opposite of making someone mature, it’s s sort of spiritual dependency culture.

    I can well imagine some of the Vision Forum stuff having precisely the same effect, either in fostering an insecure and immature masculinity that has to tell wife and daughters what to do, or an unthinking acceptance of this by wife and daughters.

  207. Hester wrote:

    @ Nicholas:

    Is Doug really Baptist? I haven’t yet caught him tipping his hand on his views on infant baptism so I wasn’t sure. Lots of his friends (Sproul Jr., etc.) seem to be some variety of ultra-conservative Presbyterian.

    I read somewhere that Phillips is independent Baptist, but I can’t remember where it was now. However, his friendship with Bill Gothard certainly makes more sense in light of that.

  208. @ Ken:
    Jesus taught against the concept that one person has authority over another, and warned his followers not to exercise authority over others. Submission as used in the NT is not obedience, and it is taught as mutual. The passage in Ephesians 5 is misunderstood. A woman’s mutual submission, in the culture of that day, was to be to her own husband as he was to be in mutual submission with her, and that was being distinguished from being in mutual submission with some other woman’s husband to the level that she and her husband would be in mutual submission.

    Christian women are adopted into the kingdom of God, and God is the author of their faith, just as He is of a man’s faith. She has no need of an earthly authority over her; she has God, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Any one who seeks to have authority over her in matters of religion and faith, including her husband, is attempting to supplant God, which is blasphemy.

  209. @ Ken:
    I second Deb’s sympathy to you.
    My former “church” was a shepherding cult and patriarchal. The shepherding aspect is as infantilizing to the men as it is to the women. My husband and I are both struggling to mature and make decisions long past the age that we should have been able to do so. I feel your pain.

  210. @ Seneca Griggs:
    Seneca he has not resigned from any leadership, his resignation from the nonprofit was basically a resignation from the speaking circuit.

    From all I have read so far he has not stepped down from VF proper or his house church.

  211. “…I shall ascend to the north, I shall be like the most high God?”

    @ rj

    hmmm…

    Every Church a nosedive?
    Hold your breath, pray for five!
    Backslap, boobytrap,
    Cover it up in bubblewrap,
    Sanctuary shake, earthquake,
    Find a way to stay spiritually awake?

    What?!?

    Stand Back?

    This Christian scene, it’s going to blow, it’s going to break,

    (This is more than I can take…)

    Give me steam, J-e-s-u-s!

    (help me, yeah…) [1]

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    Inspirational Relief: Hillsong: “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus” 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BwfQURWJ8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    [1]   Adapted.  Peter Gabriel’s : “Steam” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6sbqXckFZs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    lyrics © EMI Music Publishing, Universal Music Publishing Group, Disclaimer: parody adaptation,  U.S. title 17 fair use; all rights reserved; copyright infringement unintended.

  212. Seneca Griggs wrote:

    BUT, I’m not a better man than he is.

    I respectfully disagree. I’m glad that we mostly agree about Phillips. I’m happy you’re not defending him and have spelled that out. I also believe you ARE a better man than he is. I can’t know that with absolute certainty, of course. I’m not bragging on you or claiming sinless perfection for you, or saying it’s possible for you to please God without faith. But the Bible doesn’t shy away from comparisons. Your evil deeds, though they loom large in your own eyes,  pale by comparison. The Bible details the deeds of many powerful men who abused people–patriarchs/leaders/kings/commanders/elders/councils/scribes/teachers etc. It calls them unrighteous and their victims righteous– even though, of course, all have sinned, there is none that does good, all our righteousness is as flthy rags etc. etc.
    Hebrews says, “By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.”
    Solomon (thought to be a wise man) said of Joab:
    “The LORD will bring back his bloody deeds on his own head, because, without the knowledge of my father David, he attacked and killed with the sword two men more righteous and better than himself, Abner the son of Ner, commander of the army of Israel, and Amasa the son of Jether, commander of the army of Judah.”
    Abner and Amasa were sinners, too– yet Solomon described them as MORE righteous and better. The powerful commander who murdered them was LESS righteous and worse.
    Judah said of Tamar: “She is more righteous than I.” Tamar was certainly not guiltless, but she was MORE righteous. Judah was the patriarch with the power. He abused people. He was MORE guilty. Phillips is the patriarch with the power. He abused people. He is MORE guilty than the other woman, his flock, his followers, his customers, Dave, or Seneca (unless you’re a powerful patriarch in disguise). 

  213. notastepfordsheep wrote:

    Not to nitpick too much, but this sort of thing drives me nuts. It’s not “Doug Phillip’s name.”

    Not nitpicking at all. Glaring errors should be corrected, because we then obtain the tools we need to no longer commit them. I once gave a short and simple demi-proof here as to why divison by zero is not permitted and why we refer to it as ‘undefined’.

  214. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Thanks for your post, I appreciated your kindness. I really wouldn’t want to exaggerate my experience, others have had it much much worse. I was in the UK and the shepherding there was pretty watered down. I was never happy with it in the first place, should have had the courage of my convictions! Made less easy by the fact it wasn’t all bad.

    What can be so bad about this kind of thing is the pettiness of the issues that are brought up, majoring on minors and secondary things, like head-coverings. Worse still, Christians of all people on earth ought not to be like this. Some people never get over it, the very thought of church and bible makes them want to throw up.

    I’ve never managed to get that far, but the disillusionment and distrust of other believers can take a fair while to come to terms with. Years of decent bible teaching to wash this stuff out of your brain and thinking!

    There is a biblical submission, but it is a willing submission, not something imposed by human authority, and it always has safeguards.

  215. Ken wrote:

    At the risk of being misunderstood, this is a very American thing.

    I don’t misunderstand you one bit Ken. It is an American thing. No other nation on Earth has ever gone from pristine wildness to global super power in as short a time as we have. It is reflected in the extreme forms of Protestantism TWW profiles here on a regular basis.

  216. Val wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    But, it seemed they were in “trouble” with the church so soon after arriving –

    We joined a church despite some serious doubts– likely the big factor was two couples who were really friendly and thought much as we did. One left before we did, and the other afterward….

  217. Muff Potter wrote:

    No other nation on Earth has ever gone from pristine wildness to global super power in as short a time as we have. It is reflected in the extreme forms of Protestantism TWW profiles here on a regular basis.

    Has anyone done research (hopefully in terms a layman would understand) as to how the two got linked?

  218. @ Anon 1:
    I saw that part of his letter too!!! How about Matt. where Jesus said if you look at a woman to lust you have already committed adultery in your heart. Why did Doug Phillips go into such explicit/non-explicit description of his affair? He has committed adultery. And that woman has been marked for life. She has been further humiliated by his “public” confession. He needed to merely announce his resignation and disappear.

  219. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Has anyone done research (hopefully in terms a layman would understand) as to how the two got linked?

    Mayhap it’s because we developed our myriad Protestant sects in virtual isolation from the Old World ways and traditions? – eg. no state church, two ocean protection etc. It would be good grist for a young and enterprising grad student at the Master’s or Doctoral level. And yes it should be accessible to lay people and not just a narrow academic subset.

  220. @ AnonFam: if you look at the details, Doug did NOT write this.

    Mongolia Expedition: Report from the Gobi Desert

    Report from HJS Expedition Team Leaders Kurtis Amundson (Burma) and Joshua Phillips (Peru)

  221. noturniptruck wrote:

    @ AnonFam: if you look at the details, Doug did NOT write this.
    Mongolia Expedition: Report from the Gobi Desert
    Report from HJS Expedition Team Leaders Kurtis Amundson (Burma) and Joshua Phillips (Peru)

    Yes, I understand but it is called DOUG’s Blog…. with his smiling photo at the top.

  222. @ AnonFam:
    And even says “posted by Doug Phillips” in fine print at the bottom! 🙂 His son and another young man are reporting on manly “hazardous” journeys, on which they’ve been adventuring! Such adventures must require a bit of disposable income. As do nannies. We have friends who’ve purchased VF materials and just had daughters 6 and 7. They can’t afford nannies and adventures. 🙁 I hope they’ll find alternative homeschooling material.

  223. Lois wrote:

    Why did Doug Phillips go into such explicit/non-explicit description of his affair?

    To PROVE to himself (and his groupies) that It Wasn’t Really Adultery(TM).

    Plausible Deniability depending on what the meaning of “is” is.

  224. Pingback: How Should We Respond to Doug Phillips' Resignation From Vision Forum Ministries? | Bible Geek Gone Wild

  225. Looks like his name is now gone from the Boerne Christian Assembly website’s list of elders?

  226. notastepfordsheep wrote:

    Not to nitpick too much, but this sort of thing drives me nuts. It’s not “Doug Phillip’s name.”
    If the singular is Phillips (e.g. Doug Phillips), the singular possessive is Phillips’ or Phillips’s (either is acceptable).

    Ahem, that would be my faux pax. Good grief, it drives me crazy, too. My good Catholic education taught me this stuff, but call I blame it on typing fast and not paying attention. Shame on me. My Catholic education also taught me this: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa 🙂

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  228. Ken wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:
    Oi!! Stop writing in tongues without giving an interpretation …..

    Ken, shhhhhh, I don’t want John MacArthur and his #strangefire buddies to find out.

  229. notastepfordsheep….took a quick look at the link and cracked up at some who refer to Beall as “Be all”. Ain’t it the truth!

  230. Oh, the DELICIOUS SWEET WARM and WONDERFUL irony of old Howard Phillips’ boy Doug Phillips, Esq. making the Christianese equivalent of Bill Clinton’s “I did. Not. Have. Sex. With that woman, Miss Lewinsky” with that phony press statement.

    Dee/Deb, I’d encourage you strongly to keep following the money regarding Vision Forum, I believe you’re on to something (just think of me as Saul in “Homeland” season 3 trying to follow the money)!

    Too many great comments here to address them all but whomever used the term “Doug Phillips, Dche.” thank you – you made me laugh and laugh.

    Val wrote:

    I just don’t get how people who live in a country that prides itself of freedom and liberty can fall so far under the spell of authoritarian leaders. It just baffles me.

    Val, great comment.

    For a succinct overview of Reconstructionists/Dominionism, I heartily recommend you read “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America” by Chris Hedges.

    Bottom line is that good old Hannah Arendt laid the framework for identifying totalitarianism as such in her famous writings, and American evangelicals in particular need to WAKE UP and smell the coffee regarding the virulent and aberrant (often “reformed”) strains that have rapidly become “mainstream” in the last 20 years.

    Finally to this issue of “emotional affairs.”

    I spent 13+ years bogged down in the fog of the neo-Reformed circus and I NEVER understood what the h*ll this weird Pharasaical phrase actually meant. Thanks to many of you for pointing out that it’s parsing of language at its worst and its use in all likelihood is to preempt divorce on the grounds of adultery.

    Ugh ugh ugh. As Jeff Crippen noted, I feel really sorry for Doug Phillips, Esq.’s family who will now be the focus of his “nurturing.”

    Haven’t they been through enough? They’ll never escape. 🙁

  231. Oh, and regarding these Patriarchs (TM) appropriating military terms and “battlefield” identities for themselves? The whole “onward Christian soldiers” schtick?

    It nauseates me. More importantly, it makes me write a check to Mikey Weinstein’s Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

    Christian “leaders” who fawn all over themselves to self-identify with real members of the military are awful. How many of these goofballs have been in combat? Raise your hands, anyone? (crickets chirping ….),

  232. Rafiki wrote:

    For a succinct overview of Reconstructionists/Dominionism, I heartily recommend you read “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America” by Chris Hedges.
    Bottom line is that good old Hannah Arendt laid the framework for identifying totalitarianism as such in her famous writings, and American evangelicals in particular need to WAKE UP and smell the coffee regarding the virulent and aberrant (often “reformed”) strains that have rapidly become “mainstream” in the last 20 years.

    Just discovered the existence of that book a few weeks ago through a HuffPost comment. Haven’t bought it, yet. Anyone interested should check out the Amazon reviews. Chilling!

  233. BTDT, despite the book’s rather in-your-face title, I’ve come to appreciate Hedges’ research (and he is the son of a Presbyterian pastor, and holds an MDiv himself).

    Reconstruction/Dominionism’s influence in (takeover of?) “mainstream” American evangelicalism is undeniable at this point. And it truly is an anti-Christian, deeply un-democratic, aberrant, and totalitarian ideology.

    This ideology DESPISES democratic principals.

    Doug Phillips Esq., Vision Forum, and their ilk are at the forefront of the movement, period.

    As noted earlier, Christians need to WAKE UP. There can be no more Mr. Christian Nice Guy/Gal (“oh gee, who am I to pass judgement on my super-gospelly Christian brothers and sisters) in the face of this threat.

    To his credit, Hedges does not hold back. At this point, neither should we. We need to stand up and reclaim our faith from these totalitarians, period.

  234. @ Rafiki:
    I agree with you, Rafiki. It was rather eye-opening for me just reading the reviews.

    I’d never even heard of Reconstructionism before reading these blogs. Imagine my surprise when, after learning about the ideology, I found my former “church’s” tome in defense of home education chock full of quotes by Rushdooney and Gary North. I wonder how many others who blindly follow the Patriarchy gurus are unaware of what they’re supporting?

  235. BTDT: yep, due to my desire to come up with an authentic framework for Christian engagement in the political realm, I started exploring a variety of writings, most of which led straight to the wicked Rushdoony and his followers.

    The extreme irony of that entire experience is that as a single woman with a career, the complementarian teachings of mainstream evangelical church I attended made me feel like I needed to defend my life somehow, in order to be a “good Christian woman.” As a single woman who worked, you see, I wasn’t a “real” Christian woman … but that territory has been amply covered elsewhere on TWW.

    I thank God that I was able to critically question, conduct further research, grasp the reality of what was being promoted by the Reconstructionists/Dominionists through the Christianese double-speak, and finally turn away from the abyss of that hateful ideology.

    Living and working in conflict zones has also been a real “rubber hits the road” experience for me regarding basic human rights, dignity, governance, and most importantly faith – both my own and others’ – where the idolatrous “certainty” of American evangelicalism and Biblical literalism frankly crumbles in the face of the reality of war, poverty, and suffering.

    I’m not ashamed of my perusal of such teachings any more. Life’s too short to beat myself up about it. Yeah, like others on here, I was on the VF mailing list for a while in the late 90s. Thank God my eyes were opened!

    Keep up the good work in speaking out, everyone! 🙂

  236. “I just don’t get how people who live in a country that prides itself of freedom and liberty can fall so far under the spell of authoritarian leaders. It just baffles me.”

    Eighty years of socialistic teaching in schools has been a big factor. The focus was conformity and even middle class entitlement. Now we look to government for our needs and to regulate every aspect of our lives because we are too stupid to do it ourselves.

  237. “Bottom line is that good old Hannah Arendt laid the framework for identifying totalitarianism as such in her famous writings, and American evangelicals in particular need to WAKE UP and smell the coffee regarding the virulent and aberrant (often “reformed”) strains that have rapidly become “mainstream” in the last 20 years. ”

    Yes, quickly becoming the new Oligarchy.

  238. Anon 1 wrote:

    notastepfordsheep….took a quick look at the link and cracked up at some who refer to Beall as “Be all”. Ain’t it the truth!

    Yeah, “Be all” and “End all”… complementarians! 😀

  239. @ Virginia Knowles:

    Virginia,

    I lived in San Antonio for 11 yrs and was heavily involved in the VF Cult. I went to church with Doug – in his home – for many years. I can completely relate to you on so many levels! Thankfully, I never drank the koolaid 100% – always had a guarded opinion about the whole cult – but at the time it was where God had me. I’m so thankful for the experience – and so thankful I got out when I did (right before Jennifer was excommunicated – and yes, we are very very very good friends.)

    This whole situation is RIDICULOUS.

    Glad to meet another who has left “THe Village” and lived to tell about it. LOLOL

    RE: The Botkin Sisters – I wrote a blog post about them years ago. I think they’re nothing but two sad, depressed and spiritually abused little girls. LONG story – but I never bought their story.

  240. @ Sarah Pressler (@sarahpressler):
    Definitely agree with you on the ‘The Village’ comparison!! I watched that movie for the first time when I was a teenager, beginning to question the patriarchal beliefs I’d grown up with, and I felt so many similarities. Same for ‘Tangled’–I find it amusing that the Botkin girls found that threatening enough to post a lengthy rebuttal to the fictional character of Rapunzel!

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  242. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Great analysis, Deb. Lots to chew on here. If other blogs & message boards are any indication, you’re likely in for a lotta trolls accusing you of “gossiping” or “casting stones”. But you probably knew that already, didn’t you?
    Daisy wrote:
    You can take her to a movie, play a game with her at home, or read a bed time story to her. Just spend time with her.
    Best of all, spend time with her doing something that she enjoys. Not trying to manipulate her into what you think she should enjoy. What a novel idea.

    Especially since that conference cost $500 or more, if I remember correctly. It doesn’t need to cost much money to develop a relationship with a daughter– unless you also want to indoctrinate her to follow you as the pater familias.

  243. Please see my questioning of Phillips use of the words “romantic and affectionate” in his resignation statement at about the 95th comment at Douglas Wilson’s blog site regarding this matter. Thank you.

  244. Anew, if you want us to do that, give a direct link to it. That is usually done by putting your cursor on the date/time of the comment, right-clicking and choosing “copy shortcut” in the pop up menu.

    You then paste that link into the post here.

  245. @ Julie Anne:
    Proverbs 24:17-18 says:

    “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls and do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; or the Lord will see and be displeased and turn His anger away from him.”

    Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11:

    “As surely as I live,” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, oh house of Israel?”

  246. @ PT:

    I have difficulty with people who, instead of communicating with me in their own words, use Bible verses.

    Let me be completely honest – I am very sad for Phillips and his family and the difficulties they will have to face due to their patriarch’s pride. I am, however, glad that hopefully through this tragedy, the light of truth will expose the false doctrine, the abuse, the oppression of women in the corrupt and degrading
    system of Patriarchy.

    @ Brandon G:

    Brandon – I have no idea where he is licensed. He used to be an attorney working with HSLDA, so that makes me think he might have been licensed in either VA or DC.

  247. Julie Anne wrote:

    @ PT:
    I have difficulty with people who, instead of communicating with me in their own words, use Bible verses.

    George Orwell called it “duckspeak” — reciting the Party Line without engaging any neuron above the brainstem. Recording playback, pure Orthodoxy, Pure INGSOC.

  248. Rafiki wrote:

    Oh, and regarding these Patriarchs (TM) appropriating military terms and “battlefield” identities for themselves? The whole “onward Christian soldiers” schtick?

    That’s what happens when you mistake Christ for Warhammer 40K: the Live Role-Playing Game.
    Because In the Dark Future, There Will Always Be WAR!
    “WAAAAAAAAUGH! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!”

    Christian “leaders” who fawn all over themselves to self-identify with real members of the military are awful. How many of these goofballs have been in combat? Raise your hands, anyone? (crickets chirping ….),

    A year or two ago, a preacher got into the news for claiming a non-existent Navy SEAL background. The ex-SEAL who sysops the retired SEAL database to check such frauds said in the coverage that “Most of them are preachers.”

    Again, “WAAAAAAAAUGH! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!”

  249. Rafiki wrote:

    Oh, the DELICIOUS SWEET WARM and WONDERFUL irony of old Howard Phillips’ boy Doug Phillips, Esq. making the Christianese equivalent of Bill Clinton’s “I did. Not. Have. Sex. With that woman, Miss Lewinsky” with that phony press statement.

    Don’t forget “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

  250. The issue with “is” was whether it meant the present tense or included the past tense. If I say “the weather is nice”, does that mean that it was nice a year ago as well? “Is Phillips involved in an affair?” The answer could be no if not at present, or yes if you mean was he ever. That is what the issue was with Clinton. He was asked a present tense question and answered in the present tense. But the court decided that the answer was misleading because there had been an affair in the past that had ended some months earlier. So, does “is” include “was” or not?

  251. Rafiki wrote:

    I spent 13+ years bogged down in the fog of the neo-Reformed circus and I NEVER understood what the h*ll this weird Pharasaical phrase actually meant. Thanks to many of you for pointing out that it’s parsing of language at its worst and its use in all likelihood is to preempt divorce on the grounds of adultery.

    The ol “emotional affair” phrase is also used to rope unmarried Christian women off from the rest of Christian community, as though we are lepers who may endanger the marriages of every one.

    Single Christian women are perceived by, oh, I’d say about 99% of all married Christians to be potential home wrecking threats, with the first step in our man-stealing arsenal being to start an “emotional affair” with a married guy. Supposedly.

  252. @ PT:

    I still find it amusing that someone who claims to stand for family got caught having an extra martial affair. I feel like this kid from The Simpsons:
    image of Nelson

    If these super gung ho “Marriage and Family” guys did not marginalize the unmarried as much as they do, I probably would not be as gleeful.

    Jesus Christ did not like hypocrites or people who excluded people based on stuff like their marital status, which is precisely the sort of thing this Phillips guy did via his teachings.

  253. I have edited a great deal of this comment. The author did not say anything wrong. Due to the delicate nature of the individual involved with Phillips, I decided to cut out a big part of it.
    All you need is love-if you object to my editing, please let me know. We can remove the comment and let you rewrite it. However, you have provided some important information by calling attention to this video. Dee

    Here is a youtube video which features Lourdes Torres of Vision Forum narrating. Doug Phillips made this video to “thank” Michelle. Beall hands her the plaque, but Doug does all the talking, and kissing. Doug Phillips is the biggest fake ever. I pray his family and all those he has hurt may lean on Jesus during this time.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KqdE9_76Rx8

  254. I know the prophet Nathan was not “happy” to bring the news to king David of his sin with Bathsheba, however it was necessary because David was a true child of God and The Lord takes care of his sheep by bringing them back from wandering. There were great consequences for his sin, but he was still a believer. We should be thankful for this being brought to light just like we should be thankful that David’s sin was brought to light, yet we grieve for a brother. I will not be one to cast any stones as was proven by our Lord we have no right to, but as the brother in sin spoken of by the apostle Paul in the letter to the Corinthians once he had repented we are to receive that one so they are not to despair. The Lord tests the hearts so I do not know how anyone could say his repentance is not genuine besides the Lord himself. Based on the fact that it has been brought public and he is suffering the consequences and he is seeking to be reconciled to his wife and fellow believers what more can we as brethren expect? If anything The Lord can use the situation to bring Doug to repentance even if he has not already.