SGM Getting Excoriated In the Press Over First Amendment Defense

Posted on by February 21, 2013avatar

An Associated Press release, reprinted on the Huffington Post here, is not being well received in the court of public opinion. The article Sovereign Grace Ministries Uses First Amendment As Defense In Sex Abuse Case outlines the possibility that SGM will use this defense to skate around the allegations of the covering up of child sex abuse which includes making small children forgive their molesters. 

What's the bottom line. This one line says it all.

" With some limited exceptions, most courts haven't been receptive to the argument."

Ya think? Dee's opinion? I want to be in court the day they try this one. I will be thrown out of court for laughing hysterically. CJ Mahaney: Chief Apostle of the Freedom of Speech? ROFL! 

Take a look at the comments that are rolling in. This possible defense by SGM is giving Christians a collective black eye. And SBTS wants to get in bed with these guys? What's up with that? Shame on them!

Comments

SGM Getting Excoriated In the Press Over First Amendment Defense — 60 Comments

  1. The comments sound like TWW comments. 🙂
    But, of course, SGM is just suffering persecution. (sarcasm)
    Why does it have to be so obvious to everyone else before Christians get it?

  2. Same tactics/strategy as Calvary Chapel and BG: Perp is the “victim” instead of focusing on the REAL victims in the situation.

  3. In my opinion this SGM defense tactic amounts to the exact same position Cain took in response to God after being questioned about Abel. Cain’s defense was, “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

    There is absolutely no doubt SGM leadership assumed the position of Keeper over members’ lives. No doubt. This can be verified by everyone who has spent any time in SGM. Pastors routinely stated that they were watching over the souls of the people. CJ probably quoted Hebrews 13:17 more than any other verse in the Bible, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.”

    Of course CJ used this verse for the obedience and submission factor, for as long as he could profit from it. And the “keeping watch” was used by him & his croonies to justify their knowing everybody’s business, but it not being your business to know anything or ask questions yourself. SGM always put the responsibility upon the members to be responsible to serve the interests of those in leadership. But the verse clearly indicates that with the call for obedience comes a resonsibility to “preserve from falling or from danger; to protect; to guard or sustain” which is what the word “keep” means.

    So, when questioned regarding their culpability in regards to the abuse that happened to members and the involvement of SGM leadership in the perpetuation and cover-up of abuse, they take the position of inoculating themselves when all the while they used that verse to force members to be humble and submit to them, so as to make their lives enjoyable and NOT CAUSE THEM ANY GRIEF!?!

    Meanwhile Mr. Masculine Christian himself – John Piper – comes to his friend CJ’s aid and defense? For SGM’s obviously cowardly stance? What an “Shame on you.” John Piper looks like a total wimp in my eyes. But not as big a wimp as CJ Mahaney.

    http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=18547858

    http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?type=wnews&title=%20First%20Amendment%20defense%20signaled%20in%20sex%20abuse%20case&id=1763617

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/first-amendment-defense-signaled-in-sex-abuse-case-87856.html

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/feb/20/us-church-sex-abuse/

    http://www.necn.com/02/20/13/First-Amendment-defense-signaled-in-sex-/landing.html?&apID=b1482ef19664426cb291425c255fcf9e

  5. The SGM gurus are simply a bunch of nutless wonders who wouldn’t know real masculinity if it walked up and took their lunch money. Hope they all end up doing long stretches in the Graybar Hotel.

  6. The things is, SGM is going to try the first amendment excuse because it matters not to them whether they are guilty of wrongdoing. All that matters to them is getting away with it. They don’t care about the victims, they will refuse to consider that they have committed any wrongdoing, and they will most certainly paint their adversaries as the emissaries of Satan. Meanwhile, the name of Christ gets dragged through the mud in the public square, once again. When will the Reformed community speak out against this? This is so damn depressing!

  7. John Robinson wrote:

    The SGM gurus are simply a bunch of nutless wonders who wouldn’t know real masculinity if it walked up and took their lunch money. Hope they all end up doing long stretches in the Graybar Hotel.

  8. In case people didn’t see this another SGM Church is leaving:

    http://www.gracecorning.org/life-together/post/separating-from-sovereign-grace-ministries

    Significant part of their presentation:

    “The new polity proved to be a catalyst that caused us to reexamine the decisions and responses of SGM over the past 18 months. We realized that there was, as one pastor put it, ‘consistent divergence’ between our pastoral and leadership instincts, and those of SGM.”

    Sounds like maybe it was the “last straw” or maybe opened their eyes to what was going on.

  9. Whoops. Meant to laugh at your comment John. “Graybar Hotel” lol. I’d not heard that before!! 😀

    Also sorry for all the links in my previous comments. I should have known not to include so many! I googled “News for 1st Amendment defense.” The internet is abuzz over this! The timing for all this to have come out is nothing short of amazing. All the elements are in place to effectively clise the loopholes SGM attempts to take. And you know they will try and escape through every window and rattle the locks on every door!

  11. Someone posted this on Survivors:

    A local Knoxville paper has picked up an AP story about the SGM lawsuit and some former CCK members are posting comments about their experiences there.

    http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/feb/20/first-amendment-defense-signaled-in-sex-abuse/

    Also this talk show at minute 30 has an interview with Susan Burke the lawyer filing the suit against SGM.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vincecoakley/2013/02/19/revolution-radio-with-vince-coakley

    Shocking what Susan says SGM Churches did in this interview.

  12. Alex wrote:

    Same tactics/strategy as Calvary Chapel and BG: Perp is the “victim” instead of focusing on the REAL victims in the situation.

    If CJ and Bob start True Survivor Blogs and their wives start handing out “True Survivor” business cards detailing the divisive church slanderers on the other side, we will all know that they did indeed graduate from the Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS).

  13. @ Steve240:

    Wow! At the end he calls on the SBC and Reformed communities to stand up and pay attention. Are they affiliating with SGM leaders? Love this word he used — bloviating!!

  14. Lol Julie Anne!

    “The only thing more vicious than a woman is a group of vicious women!” Isnt that what Tanya O’Neal said about you?

    Im sure there was nothing vicious in her cards and that crazy bumper sticker she plastered on her car! That was certifiable

    Of course the Mahaneys will continue to be silent, closing their eyes and ears, acting as though they are the true Pilgrims, traversing the moral high ground that lies far above the low road the rest of us tread.

    Like Uncle Andrew of “The Magician’s Nephew” theirs is a ‘high and linely destiny.’

    Yes, well, it was lonely for the victims to be left out in the cold when they went knocking on SGM’s door. We needed help and were told to go to them, and they did nothing! In many cases preventing people from getting the help they needed!!

  15. Steve 240

    I am so glad to see people speaking out online. Susan Burke is a good lawyer. I would not want to be CJ, Larry or any other SGM pastor needing to face her her in a hearing. 

  16. Steve 240

    I have heard rumor that Frisco is in the wings, waiting for their final bow. Is it true?

  17. Evie

    Hoo boy. Breitbart picked it up. This means the talking heads will not be far behind. They were not impressed by this silly 1st amendment thing and they are big into 1st amendment. Not looking good for SGM.

  18. Miguel wrote:

    The things is, SGM is going to try the first amendment excuse because it matters not to them whether they are guilty of wrongdoing. All that matters to them is getting away with it. They don’t care about the victims, they will refuse to consider that they have committed any wrongdoing, and they will most certainly paint their adversaries as the emissaries of Satan. Meanwhile, the name of Christ gets dragged through the mud in the public square, once again. When will the Reformed community speak out against this? This is so damn depressing!

    I agree Miguel. For as long as all this has been going on inside of SGM, they seem unable to come to their senses or they would have by now dont you think? Its astonishing really. All their talk about the gospel & the bible and God being glorified – youd thought they’d have cared! Maybe their lack of repentance is a form of punishment? It looks bad but I see all this as a good sign.

  19. Dee you were sooo right about this becoming a big story this year! Indeed it is already. And its only February and the trial is months away!

  20. Miguel

    I believe that had CJ and gang said “We’re sorry” a couple of years ago, this would have all gone away. But, they would not do it. And now, like the song, It’s “Too Late to Apologize.”

    Deb and I approached a local big dude Calvinista a couple of years back on this. We begged him to intervene. He said we were character assassins. I wonder, as the name of Christ is dragged through the mud in this situation, if he ever thinks back to that exchange. He could have made a difference. But, he chose to support this nonsense.

  22. Having read the Huff Post article (and see the associated slideshow of alleged/convicted perpetrators or cover-uppers, which was in some ways equally tragic), I have to say that some of the posts at the bottom of the article said more about the posters than they did about the case.

    But two wrongs don’t make a right.

  24. dee wrote:

    I have heard rumor that Frisco is in the wings, waiting for their final bow. Is it true?

    That is the rumor. If this is the person I am thinking about he stepped down from the SGM board and people believe he and his church may be leaving SGM.

    They are falling like flies.

  25. dee wrote:

    Deb and I approached a local big dude Calvinista a couple of years back on this. We begged him to intervene. He said we were character assassins. I wonder, as the name of Christ is dragged through the mud in this situation, if he ever thinks back to that exchange. He could have made a difference. But, he chose to support this nonsense.

    I sometimes wonder if Mahaney is what Peter was talking about in II Peter 2:

    2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

  26. Steve240

    Thank you for your comment on this. I was shocked by his response to us. I actually told my husband that I wondered about that verse in Peter. I do not get the attraction in the least. Deb and I sat and watched him once in person and were underwhelmed.

  27. dee wrote:

    I was shocked by his response to us. I actually told my husband that I wondered about that verse in Peter. I do not get the attraction in the least. Deb and I sat and watched him once in person and were underwhelmed.

    It has been a long time since I have heard C.J. Mahaney speak in person but I hate to admit but he certainly has the "gift of gab" as the phrase goes. It may be that my history of hearing him speak goes way back when I think he was sincere and for real or could be that I am just hearing what he says (on my IPod) and not seeing him. Though Mahaney might know how to be captivating at times there typically isn't a lot of substance to what he says. That is not much depth etc.

  29. My only familiarity with Mahaney for a long while was from the early T4G promo vids. I thought he came off as sort of the court jester of the group. And the guy they appointed to laugh at all their jokes and edify their greatness. But he was way too giggly and affected for me.

  30. Anon1

    Re: Mahaney You said :"And the guy they appointed to laugh at all their jokes and edify their greatness" 

    Can any of us forget his groveling at the feet of Al Mohler, declaring him to be the "smartest man on the planet." I hope Mohler realized the source of this compliment. But, wait, could it be that compliments and contributions do make a difference? It would be a strange thing for a culture warrior.

     

  31. I can't believe with all of the publicity SGM, CJ, and John Piper are getting with these news reports that they are still continuing to act like nothing's wrong! Including trying to "replant" a church in MD here. http://thetollingbell.org/1/post/2013/02/sgm-is-in-the-re-plant-business-as-well.html

    They even dare to use the words "courtship" and "betrothal" to describe the "re-planting" business. YUCK.

    I even sent an email to the church as well.

    "Hi, I was wondering why your church is joining up with Sovereign Grace Ministries when SGM is surrounded with discord, lawsuits, and a lot of bad situations? CJ has turned away and left everyone who has tried to ask him about his actions, and he has run away from all of the problems in MD. Why would you put your church through what all of the other SGM Churches are going through right now? Don't you have red flags for how many churches are leaving SGM? some of those churches aren't just trivial churches, they were big players in the ministry. What makes you think that your church won't be treated the same way as Covenant Life Church when CLC started disagreeing with CJ and questioning his actions? I would hate to see your church thrown under the bus and so easily discarded as the rest of the SGM churches that have dared to no longer just let CJ have the run of things and to say that they are no longer comfortable with that SGM does.

    Sincerely, Caleigh"

    I doubt that they will response but seriously, how can people be so quiet about everything!?

  33. @ Caleigh: I know, Caleigh. It's exasperating. You speak up. You try to warn them, but they are going to do what they want to do. At what point do you just say "the heck with it" and move on? I can see continuing to fight for justice for the victims of abuse, but when adults with some degree of intelligence just refuse to listen, refuse to see, and are content with living in their perfect fake little "Christian" worlds, what more can you do? I'm not expecting anyone to answer. I'm just thinking out loud.

  34. Steve240 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    I have heard rumor that Frisco is in the wings, waiting for their final bow. Is it true?
    That is the rumor. If this is the person I am thinking about he stepped down from the SGM board and people believe he and his church may be leaving SGM.
    They are falling like flies.

    Even if they leave, culture there steeped in legalism. May just be getting out while the getting is good.

  35. Awake

    Thanks for the insight. Let me be clear. I do not think that all the churches are leaving because they have “seen the light.”  They are just escaping the expected embarrassing court trials that will most surely result in some sort of settlement, IMNHO.

    Welcome to TWW. Are you from that area? I lived in Plano for 10 years before returning to my beloved North Carolina. I hear the Tollway is continuing much further noth of Frisco.

  36. I agree with your assessment on not all churches are seeing the light. I am from the area and can say that I think if they leave, the church will go on business as usual. I realize that sounds a bit harsh but I know of many families that have left and tried to appeal to pastors and members and are met with the “I just don’t see that in Frisco” response. Many refuse to read the “gossip and slander” and therefore only know what is presented in family meetings which is as little as possible. If they leave I could see the members taking that as a cue that they are different, their pastors are different and so nothing else needs to change.

    And yes, the tollway goes all the way to Prosper border now. Thanks for the welcome.

  37. On the First Amendment defense, isn’t that essentially an admission of guilt? Aren’t they saying, “yeah, we did those things” and claiming they had the Constitutional right?

  38. Awake

    Could you give me an idea of the size of the church? I know Stonebriar is around the corner. I used to attend Bent Tree Bible when it went from 400 to 3000. I hear it is much bigger now. I was quite friendly with Pete briscoe and Joanne Hummel.

     

  39. anonymous

    Yeah and then they will deny it and try another approach. Imagine that-CJ changing tactics….

  40. Dee,
    Somewhere around 400. I know other (non sgm) churches that are younger than this plant in the area have grown to the thousands in as short as two years.

    One sticky thing to add about Frisco leaving. One of the pastor’s has a son getting ready to plant a new sgm, another son in sgm pastor’s college and the other son administrator in Frisco. Will be tough to leave.

  42. I really havent desired to come forward and comment on the suffering we have been made to endure, but others have encouraged me to say something. After all, I run a blog named girlsquawk and have made a business out of conducting workshops, squawking at conferences, writing books; in short, public speaking. So I felt it was only appropriate that I make an announcement to the world. But again, I’m only doing this because others have encouraged me to do so. I would never think of appearing as though I have taken any initiative in doing this on my own. I am a submissive woman.

    Not only am I submissive, I am quiet. Well, at least Ive tried to appear as though Im quiet despite the incredible numerous occasions in which I have taken the microphone and been on stage in front of hundreds, sometimes thousands of people. But I really cant be held responsible for that because I was just doing my job errr, umm, I mean it was my calling…umm, no it was more like I was forced into against it my will. Ive always made sure to tell people that in all the speaking and writing Ive done, what I really wanted to get across is that Im an extremely quiet person, umm, like, well, what I mean is, that I think women should be quiet and umm, well, follow my example of remaining, umm, submissive. And the only readon I havent been quiet is because Ive needed to tell all you women to be quiet. So, that’s why Im here today, to say that you should all be quiet.

    I also want you to know I had intended to post this comment much earlier while I was in my nightgown, but I took the time to get fully dressed in a hip yet modest outfit that my husband approves of.

    Thank you all for listening but please, no questions. My public ministry is none of your business. But thanks for your support and for serving me and my husband BJ during this difficult season.

  43. Carolyn Mahommey

    You are so funny! I know who you are but I shall keep my lips zipped!

    I have found a loophole on the quiet thing. Blogging is very, very quiet!

  45. Thank you for serving, Dee.

    As my husband BJ and I have been contemplating ways in which we can escape public scrutiny of our public ministry, we’ve been discussing ways we could construct yet another subterfuge, and we were hoping ‘Ye Old Name Change’ would do the trick. We didnt want to call ourselves “No.1 Ministries” (for the sake of humility) so we thought of changing SBM to “No.2 Ministries.” So far we like the simplicity, and we think its kinda catchy. When people think “No.2,” we hope they will think of us.

    We also though of a name change for your ministry. Instead of TWW we think it should be TP – and that way we can help each other out!

  46. Carolyn Mahommey wrote:

    And the only reason I havent been quiet is because Ive needed to tell all you women to be quiet. So, that’s why Im here today, to say that you should all be quiet.
    I also want you to know I had intended to post this comment much earlier while I was in my nightgown, but I took the time to get fully dressed in a hip yet modest outfit that my husband approves of.

    Oh Carolyn Mahommey, you lovely winsome delicate feminine submissive quiet flower, you! 🙂

    It’s SUCH AN HONOR to be posting alongside you, quietly of course, here on TP, er … TWW. Not because of who you are personally, but because of your quiet submissive proximity to your humble Lord and Master BJ.

    Bwahahahahahahahahaha! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

  47. Recently heard a professor from SBTS speak on church discipline. Very encouraging. Seems like he really loves and cares for his people (he’s also a pastor at a local church).

    I asked what he thought about the relationship between church authority and civil authority in relation to sins that are both spiritual and civil. He immediately and firmly said, “No question, church leaders must always report violations of civil law. Even if your state doesn’t label you as a mandatory reporter, do it anyway. Spose abuse, child abuse, molestation. No question. Report it.”

    Just thought I’d share this, as it was encouraging for me, and a good reminder that Jesus does have some skilled, wise, and loving leaders out there.

  48. Mr.H wrote:

    “No question, church leaders must always report violations of civil law. Even if your state doesn’t label you as a mandatory reporter, do it anyway.

    That IS an encouragement Mr. H!

  49. Brent Detwiler says: “On Thursday, I’ll be on the Janet Mefford radio program to talk about the response (or non response) of national leaders. I’ll post more details this week.”

    Should be an interesting program, one that you may want to link to.

  50. Thank you for reading my comments, ladies! (Sorry, I cant address anything I say to men)

    And while you’re reading, wont you consider buying one of my books? (Sorry, someone besides myself suggested I offer this shameless plug and put me up to this it really wasnt my idea!)

    Signed,

    Carolyn Mahommey, author of many books including:

    Feminine Repellant
    Shopping On Your Dime
    Living the House-Centered Life
    Sex, Romance & The Glory of Never-Ever Saying “Not Tonight, Dear” (with husband BJ)

  52. Mr.H wrote:

    Recently heard a professor from SBTS speak on church discipline. Very encouraging.

    Well, its easy to talk the talk. Walking it is different.

  53. @John:

    I agree with you. This professor/pastor is not affiliated with SGM, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that he’s not “walking the walk.” Also, he’s not a “bigwig” at SBTS, so I’m not sure that he is able to influence institutional policy.

  54. John

    If what I am seeing coming out of SBTS, with their love of pastoral authority and their worship at the feel of CJ Mahaney,is true, than I would run so fast from any church that practiced their form of “discipline.”

  58. “GooseStepp’in Wit Destiny?”

    “…We also walk in Partnership with Sovereign Grace churches in a grace-based, spirit led, evangelical tradition.”   …sharing  core doctrines: evangelical, reformed, charismatic.

    –NCC, Church Re-plant; NCC and Sovereign Grace Ministries. 365 Jones Station Road, Arnold, MD 21012; 410-544-1880

    …into da valley of death rode the proverbial 600?

    fear not for C.J. is wit thee?

    …does SGM need help re-arranging da ‘icy’ deck chairs?

    Full speed ahead?

    hmmm…

    —-> bedder pump faster…

    (grin)

    hahahahaha

    Sopy

  59. Pingback: Sex and Power: What’s Up With Sovereign Grace Ministries? | internetmonk.com

  60. “Clear And Present Relevance?”

    hmmm…

    Pertant Quotes from the Washington Post:

    “The problem with SGM’s invocation of the First Amendlment is that this protection applies to the separation of church and state, but not freedom from following the law.”

    “While it is true that pastors are free to give whatever kind of biblical counsel they see fit, nearly every state has laws that mandate ministers or other clergy members to report sexual abuse.”

    “Therapists, school-teachers, and doctors are similarly required to break confidentiality in such cases, and pastors and church leaders are bound by the same rules. There is no client/counselor privilege when it comes to child abuse. It’s one of the few situations where breaking confidentiality is not only accepted but required.”

    …having a clear decisive relevance to the matter in hand?

    You betchya.

    Sopy

    —