I choose not to give energy to the emotions of revenge, hatred or the desire to subjugate. Roseanne Cash
A few months ago, we received a call from Julie Ann Smith who explained that she was being sued by a former pastor, Chuck O’Neal, of Beaverton Grace Bible Church in Oregon here.
Julie Anne relayed to me the pain that caused her to leave her former church. I attempted to reach the pastor at the time but he did not return my call. Today, at 3:00 PM EST, his inbox is completely filled up. Could it be calls from the national media? Poor Chuck. I would not want to be his attorney.
The Story Heats Up
The story broke with local news media. Let’s pick it up here with KATU news.
“The family being sued left the church a few years ago and Julie Anne Smith says she and her family were shunned and couldn't understand why. So she went online and wrote Google and DEX reviews of the church and then started a blog.
When the family left the church, Smith says friends were told to end all contact with her. "If I went to Costco or any place in town, if I ran into somebody, they would turn their heads and walk the other way," Dissatisfied, she went online to write reviews. Other church members counteracted them with church praise. So Smith started a blog called "Beaverton Grace Bible Church Survivors."link. But the pastor claims in the lawsuit he filed that her words, "creepy," "cult," "control tactics," and "spiritual abuse," are defamation.
The lawsuit targeted Smith, her daughter and three other commenters . He is asking for $500,000 in damages. Here is the KATU broadcast.
Did a pastor(s) at John MacArthur’s church misuse the office of the pastor?
Julie Anne has since moved out of state but this pastor is hell bent on this lawsuit, pursuing her across state lines. Why? At FBC Jax here, we learn: (O'Neal speaking)
"After seeking counsel from a pastor on staff with Grace Community Church (under Pastor John MacArthur) and reading him several excerpts from Julie Anne's endless defamation, he recommended that we FILE A LAWSUIT in an appeal to Caesar as the Apostle Paul did when falsely accused of crimes against God and the state."
What follows next is my own conjecture. I have not spoken to Julie about this concern.
I have some background to add to O’Neal’s statement. According to Julie Anne , a few months ago, knowing Chuck O’Neal’s devotion to everything John MacArthur, she called MacArthur’s church, asking for help in resolving/mediating this situation. She said a pastor, Bill Shannon, spoke with her at length about the situation and said he would speak with O’Neal. She later was told that there was nothing the church could do to stop O’Neal’s lawsuit.
Was there more to this story? Could it be that pastor(s) at Grace Community Church (MacArthur’s) were actively counseling this pastor to sue his former church member? If they were, did they not have the obligation to tell Julie Anne that they were involved in advocating the pastor to sue her?
This could give the appearance of duplicity. For example, it could appear, in the conversations with Julie, that they were seeking information to help O’Neal. If this were so, it could be viewed as a despicable act, misusing the office of pastor for the gain of one of their devoted followers. But, they could also have been on the side of the angels, encouraging Chuck to reconcile and trying to help Julie.
I believe that Grace Community Church has an obligation to clear up this matter. Approximately 5 hours ago I called Grace Community Church and spoke with two secretaries, stating that I planned to post questions regarding their involvement in this situation. I warned the church that news of this poorly conceived lawsuit has now garnered the attention of ABC News here, Fox News here (and now the UK here) indicating that this will become a internationally discussed case. I carefully spelled out my concerns, warning them that I would post this in 5 hours. If you are reading this, you can assume that TWW did not receive a response.
If Grace Community Church played any role in encouraging this lawsuit, then I hope the lawyer for the defense will depose the church and expose their involvement. I pray that it isn’t so.
Bene Diction and The Streisand Effect
Meantime, Bene Diction Blogs On, here, provides some interesting insights as well.
“What lawyer wouldn’t want to defend Julie Anne? Her lawyer filed a motion to dismiss in April and it goes to a judge May 21st. Chuck still doesn’t get it. He amended his lawsuit the first week of May, adding another person and again claiming defamation. Needless to say the Google reviews on his church are multiplying, and those reviews are not in favour of pastor Chuck and Beaverton Grace Bible Church.”
Bene cleverly points out that this pastor may find out that he is the recipient of the “Streisand Effect.” From Wikipedia, we learn “The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt to hide or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely. It is named after American entertainer Barbra Streisand, whose attempt in 2003 to suppress photographs of her residence inadvertently generated further publicity.” In other words, O'Neal and his church will now be the recipient of all sorts of unwanted attention.
Chuck O’Neal: Is this Hypocrisy?
Tom Rich, over at the FBC jax post linked above, had this to add.
“If you go back and listen to one of Chuck's sermons entitled "Emergent Church Apostasy – Wolves in Our Midst" – Chuck goes after emergent church leaders Doug Pagitt, Brian Mclaron, and Rob Bell for their false teachings. Chuck says that Brian Mclaron "serves the devil", he claims all three men are "wolves in sheep's clothing", he calls them "false prophets", and says Rob Bell is a "dangerous man". It is a very scathing sermon and he attacks these men's motives and their character and their ministries. And no doubt Chuck will say that he is doing it because he is called by God to call out and expose what he perceives to be false teachers.
For Chuck to file a lawsuit against Julie Anne for criticizing religious leaders, while Chuck himself uses his pulpit to criticize harshly religious leaders, makes Chuck a hypocrite. And we know what Jesus thinks about religious hypocrites. Chuck, whether you like it or not, Julie Anne Smith is just as called of God as you are to expose what she believes to be false and harmful teachers. “
Here is a link to a post O’Neal did at eChristian. Let’s see who he calls apostates. (This means people who have renounced their faith). And he has the chutzpah to go after Julie Anne ??!! (Note to Julie: Make sure the judge sees this one)!
Yale Divinity School professors originally authored the apostate letter, but there are over 300 “Christian” theologians, pastors, and leaders that have signed on. The list reads mostly as a who’s who of apostates, but there are probably a few that we would all be surprised to find in apostate company supporting an apostate letter. Here are just a few of the notable names:
- Leith Anderson, President, National Association of Evangelicals
- David Yonggi Cho, Founder and Senior Pastor of Yoido Full Gospel Church, Seoul, Korea -
- Lynn Green, International Chairman, Youth With A Mission -
- Bill Hybels, Founder and Senior Pastor, Willow Creek Community Church, South Barrington, IL
- Duane Litfin, President, Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL
- Richard Mouw, President and Professor of Christian Philosophy, Fuller Theological Seminary
- Rev. Roy Oksnevad, Director Muslim Ministry, Billy Graham Center at Wheaton, IL
- Doug Pennoyer, Dean, School of Intercultural Studies, Biola University -
- Rev. Dr. John Stott, Rector Emeritus, All Souls Church, Langham Place, London, UK
- Michael W. Treneer, International President, The Navigators, Colorado Springs, CO
- Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church, and The Purpose Driven Life, Lake Forest, CA
Bloggers: Be Aware of SLAPP tactics
It is also important to note that O’Neal could possibly be pulling a SLAPP. Bloggers everywhere need to be aware of this tactic. Thankfully, Oregon recognizes this unsavory device and has implemented recourse for victims. I have it on good authority that an Anti-Slapp motion may have been employed in this matter. The following is a simple explanation of this tactic from Wikipedia here.
"A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.
The typical SLAPP plaintiff does not normally expect to win the lawsuit. The plaintiff's goals are accomplished if the defendant succumbs to fear, intimidation, mounting legal costs or simple exhaustion and abandons the criticism. A SLAPP may also intimidate others from participating in the debate. A SLAPP is often preceded by a legal threat. The difficulty, of course, is that plaintiffs do not present themselves to the Court admitting that their intent is to censor, intimidate or silence their critics.
Other widely mentioned elements of a SLAPP are the actual effectiveness at silencing critics, the timing of the suit, inclusion of extra or spurious defendants (such as relatives or hosts of legitimate defendants)attempts to identify anonymous or pseudonymous critics and attempts to run up defendants' costs even if this clearly costs more to the plaintiffs."
TWW’s take on the matter
- This is a foolish lawsuit which will bring shame to the pastor and the church.
- Julie Anne and the other defendants will win this lawsuit.
- Chuck O’Neal should drop the suit and save himself (and his church) money and ridicule.
- Julie will receive remuneration for her court and attorney costs and fees.
- John MacArthur’s church should speak out immediately about Grace Community Church’s involvement in this fiasco and distance themselves from this pastor.
- Christian bloggers need to be aware that “big names” may be involving themselves in blogging issues. In such cases, be aware of anti-SLAPP guidelines.
- This is a First Amendment case, pure and simple.
- The pastor should learn to turn the other cheek and show grace under pressure.
Now, we leave you with a performance of the musical hit ,“Barbra Streisand,” performed by the cast of Glee (Chris Peterman-we are thinking of you!). Each time you hear “Barbra Streisand,” substitute Chuck O’Neal and pray for Julie Anne. Julie Anne, we will join in the dance when you prevail, and you will!
Addendum 7:20 PM-I just spoke at length with Julie Anne. She has been encouraged by the outpouring of support from Christians, as well as the media. Keep an eye on the news. All media outlets are jumping on the story and are very sympathetic to Julie Anne's situation. Julie Anne states that this is about "spiritual abuse." I think she is correct.
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 42:1-43:27 James 5:1-20 Psalm 119:1-16 Proverbs 28:6-7
Thanks for the link. :^)
I can’t see a judge letting Mr. O’Neal move forward, but I’ve been known to be wrong.
I think your point – “Christian bloggers need to be aware that “big names” may be involving themselves in blogging issues” – is one to be heeded.
John Stott an apostate? Crazy. I’m on the floor! MR O’NEAL YOU CAN’T BE SERIOUS!Words fail me!
What happened to that very well know verse in Matthew?
There is exemption clause for pastors!? I don’t think so.
You are suppose to appeal to the person prior to Caesar.
(Sarcasm) I guess biblical principles are for others.
How’d you like the Glee performance to go along with your Streisand effect?
Thank you. Helpful, insightful and important.
Developing large binders (yes, plural) on First Amendment cases. It will take one year or so.
At a first instance, I strongly doubt this will get beyond an original court of jurisdiction. A lot of issues are involved.
Again, thank you.
Donald Philip Veitch
Wow! Just wow! I live in Beaverton and have never heard of this church until I saw the news report. I’m glad I’ve never stepped foot in there. Again, I hope this gets thrown out and doesn’t go very far. There’s a reason why the Portland area is one of the most un-churched cities in America. It’s because of churches like that.
I’d expect more grace from a pastor whose church has grace in its name.
….or with the word church in its name.
Can someone tell us why John Stott is apostate? I am utterly shocked that his name is on that list. Since Desiring God brought Warren in last year are they apostate? I wonder if John Piper would be on the apostate list?
The ones with “grace” in their names are often the most offensive. Add “sovereign” to “grace” and you really need to to be wary.
Take it from the source. This is the same guy who is suing Julie Anne. Making sense is not a prerequisite.
I have followed Julie Anne Smith’s situation and blog since very early in March, and I’ve been especially watching this “blowin’ up” internationally the past few days as the KATU interview and article went viral.
I would not be surprised if similar situations arise in the future. The number of “survivor blogs” and spiritual abuse exposure activity online has increased dramatically in the past six months – especially as entrenched Christian celebrities continue to carry on with their usual antics. For those of us who are “citizen journalists” seeking to shine truth with grace into dark places of the Church, Julie Anne’s situation is potentially setting precedents and procedures that we need to think about deeply.
Personally, I think this case should serve as a severe warning to Christian figures who act as if they are not accountable to anyone, and to their partnership providers (publishers, conferences, ministry networks, non-profits). I’m not for muckraking, but I am for light-shining, and if we choose to be in the public eye, we’re tacitly agreeing to public scrutiny.
So, I appreciate The Wartburg Watch’s diligent research work and your attempts to contact relevant parties for their sides of the story. I, too, hope an official spokesperson from Grace Community Church clarifies what roles they did/didn’t play in any of this – for the sake of both the truth and their own reputation.
Meanwhile, here are some supplemental research materials and observations I’ve pulled together about these issues and the social media impact of the story.
The KATU story was posted in the U.S., early morning Saturday, May 12. By this morning (Monday), it truly had gone around the world once already. International media and news services picked it up first in at least Australia and Korea by Sunday. It had made its way to Europe and UK by early this morning (Monday) Pacific Daylight Time U.S. It’s been picked up by major media news websites, as you mentioned (ABC, Fox), and also niche news aggregators (like Religion News Blog).
I’ve especially been watching the action in posts, comments, and Google Reviews. Blogger sites and spiritual abuse survivor sites and watchdog sites have tweeted and/or posted about it. Commenters on various sites have mentioned that at least four or five different Facebook spiritual abuse/cult survivor groups have posted links to the KATU story and/or Julie Anne’s blog. And I’ve seen at least a dozen links among my Facebook friends who aren’t part of spiritual abuse survivor groups.
The response has been intense, perhaps especially among those who aren’t Christians. As of very early this morning, the KATU site had about 200 commenters, and Julie Anne’s three most recent posts (dealing with the “news leak” and Hannah’s story and support) have a total over 200 (and at 3 PM PDT, it’s at 230 – plus she has deleted a number of exceptionally antagonistic comments).
Julie Anne’s been doing a stellar job in responding with peace, grace, kindness, humor, and courage – whether to “trolls” who want to stir things up and condemn her or Christianity, or to those whose comments show misunderstanding, agitation, or difficult personal experiences of surviving abuse. In case something like this happens to others of us who are bloggers, I think Julie Anne’s giving us an amazing model of grace under pressure and responding in a Christlike way to all.
It’s been particular intriguing to track what’s happened with the Google Review rating for Beaverton Grace Bible Church.
I’ve watched their rating vary over the past 10 weeks since early March, as some members and visitors posted glowing 5-star reviews, and some ex-members and visitors posted negative reviews (mostly 1 star). But, as best I can remember, the overall rating was 4 out of 5 stars before the KATU interview/article was posted Saturday. It fell to 2 stars by Sunday, as people from U.S. and beyond have posted negative comments. As of about 3 PM today (PDT), the rating is just 1.5 out of 5.
Of the 129 reviews currently posted, 26 were posted 2 weeks ago or more (the oldest one currently posted being from Pastor O’Neal and marked “2 years ago”). These older reviews give a mix of high and low ratings. Basically, everything since two weeks ago has been a one-star rating. Saturday, there were 28 such reviews; Sunday, 32 reviews; Monday so far, 43 reviews.
It appears that Pastor O’Neal’s February 25, 2012, review of his own church has disappeared from the Google Reviews for Beaverton Grace Bible Church. That’s the review Julie Anne’s blog copied and posted that begins with “DEFAMATION IS A CRIME,” and that other blogs have referred to. See:
Though that original review is gone (and perhaps it and edited variations thereof can be retrieved via the internet Wayback Machine), as of this afternoon there was still a Google Review from “Langdon.” It was posted 2 months ago, which would put it sometime shortly after Julie Anne began her BGBC Survivors blog. Langdon’s post happened to quote the line from Pastor O’Neal’s review about his being in touch with Grace Community Church. In case the Langdon review likewise happens to disappear from the Google Reviews lineup, I thought I’d copy it here to finish my comment. Thanks again, Dee and Deb, for your work in bringing together this post!
Langdon - 2 months ago
I am reposting this to set the record straight, my name is not Julie Anne. At first we thought this was a good church but soon started seeing red flags. Check the sermons with good commentaries and study notes. The pastor has stated in his review: “After seeking counsel from a pastor on staff with Grace Community Church (under Pastor John MacArthur) and reading him several excerpts from JulieAnne’s endless defamation, he recommended that we FILE A LAWSUIT in an appeal to Caesar as the Apostle Paul did when falsely accused of crimes against God and the state.” This statement does not line up biblically. 1 Cor. 6:7-8 “Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.” MacArthur’s notes state “The implied answer is because of the shameful sin and the moral defeat that result from selfishness, a willingness to discredit God, His wisdom, power, and sovereign purpose, and to harm the church and the testimony of Christ’s gospel. Christians have no right to insist on legal recourse in a public court. It is far better to trust God’s sovereign purposes in trouble and lose financially, than to be disobedient and suffer spiritually. 1 Cor. 6:8 “you yourselves wrong and defraud” MacArthur’s notes state “He is referring to those who sue their brothers in Christ being as guilty of the same misconduct they are suing to rectify.” This is a public forum to voice ones opinion of and experience in this church. They should not be threatened with a lawsuit for giving that opinion. Also, one reviewer said that those who are being shunned need to repent and will be received back with open arms. My question would be: how do you know those people NEED to repent since you no longer speak with them ? Could it be you need to pursue those people to hear their side of the story? Matt. 18 discipline looks much different than what occurs in this church. Again, read John MacArthur’s commentary on that! No church should require unquestioning obedience to the eldership. Acts 17:11-12 commends the Bereans for being more fair minded than than those in Thessalonica and searching the Scriptures daily to FIND OUT whether these things were so.
Then add “church” to those two words as Sergius suggests and you’ve got problems. Sovereign Grace Church is a triple oxymoron.
I think they will win on AntiSlap,p and it will never make it to a jury trial. Julie Anne and her attorney win and the pastor looks really stupid on an international level as opposed to a local level. Church then declares it is an attack by Satan and go into radical denial.
Dee – *great* video choice! (Featuring two of my fave Glee cast members: Chris Colfer – in red fedora – and Lea Michele.)
It’s one thing to criticise an aspect or aspects of a man’s teaching (some people disagreed with John Stott on “annihilationism”) but a completely different kettle of fish to call a man apostate. I’m sure a lot of us disagree seriously with some of the people who have been featured on TWW, for example, but wouldn’t go as far as to call them apostate. These people should look up the meaning of big words before they use them! Seriously, “apostasy” is a very serious accusation and should be made very carefully, if at all.
Never heard of O’Neal/BGBC, but my home church has more than a slight affiliation with MacArthur/GCC. If they truly did encourage a lawsuit, I’d be majorly shocked and disappointed.
You want a job researching for TWW? The pay is awful but the benefits fascinating!
Wow – you are good.
What? You guyz pay???
WOW! I’m extremely impressed by your thorough research and am taking notes on how you analyzed this situation.
I think this apostate thing is coming from a John MacArthur book from about three years ago. You know he also lists Driscoll in this book at potential apostates. The book is called Truth Wars and lists the same people this guy at Beaverton lists.
Since Chuck O’Neal has pulled John MacArthur / Grace Community Church into this debacle, I want to take this opportunity to make a public service announcement about their upcoming Resolved conference.
Here is a list of the speakers:
C.J. Mahaney has been featured at every Resolved conference since its inception.
I am still deeply troubled by this Resolved 2009 Trailer in which Mahaney and John Piper use the phrase the Scream of the Damned to describe Jesus on the cross. I have previously addressed this in a couple of posts.
The Scream of the Damned and the Last Straw…
What Wrong with “Living the Cross Centered Life?
John Stott an apostate? Crazy. I’m on the floor! MR O’NEAL YOU CAN’T BE SERIOUS!Words fail me! — Andrew
I think the definition of “apostate” here is “NOT Chuck O’Neal’s Yes-Man.”
Julie Anne and her attorney win and the pastor looks really stupid on an international level as opposed to a local level. Church then declares it is an attack by Satan and go into radical denial. — Dee
I suspect the “radical denial” will be more like “Spiritual Warfare Mode”, with Witchfinder-General O’Neal seeing Witches and Demons and Julie Anne’s minions under every bed.
I am certain that a lot of this is coming from the John MacArthur camp. I once heard a Lutheran pastor talk about listening to to J. Mac and he began to talk about the false sacramental churches such as the Lutherans. I think he has even had a run in with R.C. Sproul and I think that a few of the Reformed guys from the White Horse Inn have written against some of the pre-mil dispensational theology of J. Mac. Jesus said the gate to him was narrow i.e. it is entered only through HIM. Maybe Jesus really meant that Calvinism was the narrow gate.
SLAPP lawsuits have long been used to intimidate and silence citizens speaking out against environmental abuses, such as a company illegally dumping toxic waste. Now I am very disturbed that Christian pastors are using the same tactics to silence their critics. Luckily Oregon law has been updated, so hopefully Julie will prevail and concerned Christians will donate money to help defray her legal expenses. I also hope the defeat of Pastor O’Neal’s lawsuit will discourage other egotistical pastors from similar lawsuits.
Thanks for the information on SLAPP. I hope lots of pastors are watching this situation. We have been complaining about hyper-authoritarian pastors for over three years, and it is really getting out of hand!
Hi, I’m a lurker. 🙂 I have several experiences with spiritual abuse and I love what you all are doing here. It’s a much-needed ministry.
I just had to comment on the “scream of the damned” thing.
It sounds very much like a teaching popular in the Word-Faith circles. It started with E.W. Kenyon and got picked up by Ken Hagin (the ‘father’ of Word-Faith), Kenneth Copeland and others. They teach that Jesus died spiritually – by which they mean that Jesus was spiritually separated from God, went to hell and suffered a taste of hell-fire and torment at Satan’s hands. They teach that in order for the “substitutionary atonement” to really work it had to be a 1 to 1 substitution. In other words, since we die physically and spiritually (i.e. go to hell) then in order for the atonement to be successful Jesus had to die AND go to hell.
I’m not sure if it’s irony or what…but I find it amusing that Piper, MacArthur, et al would be picking up doctrines from the Charismatic crowd.
It doesn’t surprise me that people who spend an inordinate amount of time talking about “the cross” (i.e. the death of Jesus) would sooner or later decide that the “horror” of the scene isn’t as sensational as it could be and feel the need to up the stakes.
Having ‘grace’ in the name of a church seems to be just like having ‘democratic’ or ‘people’s’ in the name of a country – guarantees that it’s really the opposite. O’Neals ‘nobody can say anything bad about me!’ attitude is a lot like the North Korean Kim dynasty.
Thanks for your information on the “scream of the damned”. I will check into this further.
Here is some more in depth information on the “Scream of the Damned” by Steven J. Camp. I am glad that others are speaking out about this.
SCREAM OF THE DAMNED…was Jesus really damned by God for our salvation?
Thanks, Dee and Deb, for featuring this story.
And Brad, wow – that was awesome info there!
I have been thinking about you since you first got in touch with us a couple of months ago. Please know that many of us are praying for you.
I enjoyed seeing you in the news clip!
I just learned about this story for the first time at noon today. I couldn’t locate your e-mail address, bit if you’ll e-mail me, I’ll send you an official statement from Grace Church and John MacArthur that you can publish. If you want to talk further by phone, I’ll tell you what I learned about this situation this afternoon. I’ll give you my cell # by e-mail.
The Calvinista crowd is really good at misnomers. Did you have a chance to read our post on this topic?
Puzzling Phrases and Mind-Boggling Misnomers
And they wonder why the great unchurched have no desire to be churched.
My oh my. I have been following this for the past few days. Have read a lot of “I’m surprised Mars Hill hasn’t done this yet” comments. I think they are far too methodical about their PR.
Great to hear from you! MH and MD knew better than to attract this kind of negative publicity.
Well, here on the East Coast it’s rapidly approaching 10:30 p.m. Bedtime…
This would almost be funny if it weren’t so ludicrous. In my area one of the mega-churches fired a woman who taught at the church run school because she wasn’t baptised by full immersion. They also fired one of their chemistry teachers because he didn’t subscribe to YE (young earth) doctrine as set forth by the church big wigs. Both were faculty members for over 20 years and obviously the victims of an internal inquisition.
The victims remained victims with no redress of grievance because the mega-churches attorney’s successfully argued that they’re exempt from the civil statutes which apply to all others based on their status as a religious organization.
Wouldn’t it be poetic justice if the court told the churches and ex-members to sort out their sordid little squabbles between themselves and that they can’t have it both ways with regard to church/state relations?
“Wouldn’t it be poetic justice if the court told the churches and ex-members to sort out their sordid little squabbles between themselves and that they can’t have it both ways with regard to church/state relations”
Look for this to become a bigger issue. As more and more churches abuse (they are exempt from all labor laws)not only employees who question them but members…… and as outsiders see huge incomes and large campuses, some are going to lobby for a lb of flesh from them in the way of taxes.
It is almost impossible to win any lawsuit against a church as a former employee. You might be able to sue an individual like the pastor and win but even that is rare.
Don’t sign membership covenants!!!! And if you already have, send a registered letter cancelling it. Even if you like the place. See if they will keep you without it.
dee: Glee never disappoints.:^)
Thanks for mentioning the Scream of the Damned earlier, Tamera. This was the straw the broke the camel’s back for me when it came to Piper. I had overlooked a lot of silliness but this one was blasphemy. That one, I could not overlook. Amazing how many people have not called him out on it. I have never seen the word “damned” parsed so much in all my life after those sermons. Amazing what “seminary educated” guys will come up with.
I expect such things from Mahaney.
Hey Dee, while you have Phil on the phone ask him why Mahaney is speaking at Resolve and if he thinks the stories coming out of the survivors blog over the last 4 years are all lies. And why JMac would support an “Apostle” from the shepherding cult, People of Destiny who only changed their name to SGM but kept the shepherding cult part.
I see Phil J. has popped over and offered a statement on behalf of John MacArthur and his church.
Looking forward TWW getting it up.
Deb/Dee – please send me a copy! I still haven’t heard anything back from my e-mail today.
Just a bit of advice: if you see a post that you think will eventually be scrubbed, screencap it! Reproducing it via text isn’t as good as a screencap with dates and all. As many on the internet will tell you, “Pictures, or it didn’t happen!” (Not what you want to tell a victim of spiritual or sexual abuse, but definitely something to keep in mind when bits and pieces of proof may go poof!)
Dee – I predict Chuck will withdraw his complaint by the end of Tuesday, as he probably has already heard from MacArthur’s bunch about what a terrible idea it is from a legal standpoint to sue someone over words that are truly not defamatory.
He will withdraw his complaint, but Julie Anne should still pursue him under the Anti-SLAPP rules to get him to pay for her legal expenses, unless he offers a full apology and agrees to pay Julie’s legal expenses, which I think he will. From what I gather about Chuck, he idolizes MacArthur, and will do whatever MacArthur’s bunch tells him to do. There is no way that MacArthur and his staff will stand by Chuck in this. I look forward to reading an official statement by GCC. They will be running away from Chuck as quickly as they can.
re: Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church being a John MacArthur fanboy.
He seems to be a fan of Phil Johnson too.;^)
Picture 14 of 22 March 2012
@Tikatu – – thanks for that advice. Much appreciated. I may be a geek, but not exactly a techy geek, so I much appreciated your lead … simple as it may have seemed to some readers!
Anyway, just got a screenshot add-on installed and got the image of that Google Review by “Langdon” saved. 🙂
It will be interesting to see Phil Johnson’s response. I’ve attended a few churches heavily connected to MacArthur – and one where Bill Shannon spoke at one of our retreats. Say what you will, but I’d be surprised to see a CGC elder advise a lawsuit.
In my view, MacArthur has fairly thick skin, and has publicly spoken about welcoming public criticism of his views and teachings. He certainly offers heavy criticism of others. And, in the more hard-core Calvinist circles I’ve been in, I’ve heard far worse things said about JMac than what we’ve seen in the Beaverton story. But you never know.
Hi Dee and Deb, and Julie Anne,
Wow, are we havin’ any fun yet??!! It was in God’s providence that I just happened to find Julie Anne’s blog on Mar. 1. I was curious to know about this intriguing situation. It was hardly half a day later when Julie Anne informed me, along with you guys, about her shocking news about the summons to court. It has been good to see your (Julie Anne’s) continued blogging during a very difficult season. We’ve all been watching how things unfold and have praying for your wisdom and tenacity.
The fact that this has now gone viral certainly raises the awareness about spiritual abuse. I trust that many more people will be made aware about this dysfunction in the Body of Christ and that positive things will be accomplished through this exposure.
Thanks Dee and Deb for the facts, updates, and other connections re this continuing saga!
Hey Brad, Congrats on your new research job position at TWW!! 🙂
All that skill can’t go to waste.
This past Sunday, my wife informed me that one of our dear friends who was “expecting”, and it was now feared that a “C” section would be required by the attending physician. Her baby was not due for about a week or so. I remember hearing this prospect come out of my wife’s mouth-and even when it did, my heart was crushed, I spoke with Our Lord right there in our kitchen, saying “No Lord!, this can not be so!”
Well I get a call aound dinnertime, last evening (Monday) RING…She what…a healthy baby boy…a week and a half early, with absolutely no complications! Whew! Praise Our Wonderful Savior!
I have shared with many here @TWW, that Our Lord hears me when I pray.
I very seldom tell the stories, but I wanted you to know that:
For you Julie, –“No Lord!, this can not be so!”
His eye is on His widdle sparrow! (You)
You know in reading these blogs in the last few months, it’s like you know very disturbing information and really can pull me into depression almost for a whole day. But don’t get me wrong it’s not the blogs’ fault at all, these things have to get exposed for what they are. There is actually no basis for an assembly to ever need to sue. Methinks they (this assembly leader) doth protest tooo much.
In a closing comment, I believe the LORD is coming soon.
When it comes to Catholics it varies, please note they do persecute Protestants still in Latin America.
I LOVED your comment above; so well researched. I am the author of the Google comment by Langdon. My husband and I are good friends of Julie Anne and her family and we all attended BGBC together. My husband, Don Miller, was the ‘Evangelism Coordinator’ at Beaverton Grace Bible Church and was fired for questioning the pastor (or Korah like behavior as Chuck called it). In the words of Pastor Chuck O’Neal in my husband’s dismissal letter:
“We called you to serve in a vital area of ministry. You were not satisified to serve there. You have taken too much upon yourself for too long in your criticisms. You have taken entirely too much upon yourself in seeking to gather others to your assault on the ministry of the Word at BGBC. Out of love for you, your family, and the Body of Christ, we counsel you to repent, cease your complaints, cease your attempts to gather others from the congregation against their elders, and all other Korah like behavior.
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17”
The problem was my husband could not “repent” as he believed there were serious issues in the church.
Praise the Lord for His goodness and mercy. We are thankful for the painful lessons learned at BGBC and have moved on with our lives. We continue to pray for those hurt by things done to them in that church as well as those still there.
We certainly agree with your assessment of Julie Anne’s incredible grace in handling herself in this difficult situation. She is an amazing woman with an AWESOME GOD.
Dee and Deb, thanks so much for highlighting this story!
P.S. We will be sorely disappointed if anyone associated with John MacArthur encouraged Chuck to sue. That would go directly against everything I have seen MacArthur teach on 1 Corinthians 6.
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Even Michael Savage, the right-wing talk radio host, has picked this up. (I don’t listen to him but my dad does.) It was my understanding that Savage doesn’t normally do religion stories, so this must really be big…
I look forward to Phil Johnson’s response to this serious matter. I am concerned that a blog post he wrote last fall may have influenced Chuck O’Neal.
The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Discernment Divas
Am embedded video of the dialogue between Todd Friel and Phil Johnson at a Psalm 119 Conference has been deeply troubling to me. They only reason I haven’t written about it yet is because there has been so much else to report and discuss.
Starting around the 25 minute mark, we hear:
“There are some discerners out there, and they’re not good discerners…most of them are amateur discernment experts that are housewives and homeschool moms…”
Let’s see… Chuck’s critic is a housewife and a homeschool mom…
I found Phil Johnson’s photo selection for this post to be highly offensive.
Lunches at Panera, birthday and holiday gifts and celebrations and getting called names all over the internet! Discernment divas, hmmmmmm.
I went to bed before reading your comment and now shall deal with the issue. You are first on my list.
“As someone who has explored many churches that tell you of only God’s love and forgiveness, it’s refreshing to hear about the rest of His Word. Only in this church have I felt truly saved from my sinful life and that I am honestly leading a new one in His Whole Word. Pastor Chuck O’Neal is a brilliant speaker, caring pastor, and humble man who is extremely knowledgable of the Bible and whose Biblical teachings have helped me through many awful times in my life. After being part of this church even for a short time, I’d never accept another” – From a 5 star review of Beaverton Grace Bible Church.
For me, the alarm bells ring at “…many churches tell you of only God’s love and forgiveness… only at this church have I felt truly saved from my sinful life… I’d never accept another”.
You mentioned in a comment about working with us and what benefits are involved. That is the problem with lots of comments. We respond and the conversation is off in another direction!
I went to bed early last evening. I sent you an email this AM, probably while you were asleep. We are all looking forward to the statement by the church.
It’s probably just me, but I find it interesting that the Pyros do their dismissive post on SGM this past weekend as this blows up with implications for Johnny Mac’s church.
There is a “command and control” battle going on for the life of the church. Fortunately, Jesus wins. 🙂
Good to see my buddy, B-rad here. Brad is one of the smartest guys I know. And there are few who are as well researched as he is.
Casey UNITED STATES on Tue, May 15 2012 at 02:47 am
You know in reading these blogs in the last few months, it’s like you know very disturbing information and really can pull me into depression almost for a whole day. But don’t get me wrong it’s not the blogs’ fault at all, these things have to get exposed for what they are. There is actually no basis for an assembly to ever need to sue. Methinks they (this assembly leader) doth protest tooo much.
In a closing comment, I believe the LORD is coming soon.
Casey: In response to “I believe the Lord is coming soon”, that may or may not be, but I am more apt to think that God is in the process of cleaning up His church.
Since starting this blog, I have no difficulty understanding why people avoid churches. That is why I speak of Jesus. Too many churches are run by people who are control freaks and I weary of trying to sort them all out. Jesus, on the other hand, never wearies me and always inspires me to follow His Way.
I think that Mars Hill and others are hanging back, waiting to see if one of these suits works in their favor. Then the fireworks begin.
Those churches that emphasize these secondary issues will lose. They do not understand that Jesus is not about the culture, both within the church and out, but it is about the big picture. They will continue to lose the hearts of the next generation.
“Don’t sign membership covenants!!!! And if you already have, send a registered letter cancelling it. Even if you like the place. See if they will keep you without it.” You must be reading my mail!
I am afraid that I will get the same response from him that I got from a mega-pastor of Mahaney and Ezzo. Mahaney has successfully implanted himself into the meme of this group. Their identity is wrapped up in SGM being good. If they admit that there are serious failings, it will mean that they, too, are messed up and will need to seriously address some issues that are difficult.
I went to bed and emailed him this AM. I will pop it up when I receive it. I don’t exact much until noon EST
Chuck O’Neal took down his biography. I read on the church website it in February. I think he claims to have preached on the flight deck of a massive aircraft carrier and also preached at Mogadishu during Black Hawk Down-all this after becoming a Christian in the military, and from what I remember, not having any formal pastoral training. I don’t know why he took it down. It sounded so interesting, and I had hoped to talk with someone who had been present at these occasions.
I have learned my lesson in this situation.
Thanks for your kind words. Providentially, I happened to watch the going-viral process in progress on Saturday through Monday, so I was able to make the observations I did.
The way I see it, each of us has something constructive to contribute toward the Church becoming a body of people ever more characterized by Christlikeness. How God designed me lets me participate in that process through research writing. You took the opportunity to bring truth to light by sounding the alarm with your Langdon comment, as did Julie Anne with her Google Review. Dee and Deb post research/resource articles. Each of us can do something to improve the life of the Church, and, as Julie Anne challenges in her most recent post, (“Protector: Make the Choice!”) each of us *should* do something.
We who are survivors of malignant ministry situations know our Kingdom investment comes with a cost, but the benefit is that others might not suffer the same needless experiences of abuse. Since I believe Scripture is clear enough that no one can move into the light without discerning and exposing the darkness, I do what I can when I can to write materials for equipping people to diagnose what is toxic and to build toward what is healthy – both in our personal lives and in our congregations. That’s the redemptive edge I’ve found … and I rejoice that you and Don are finding a redemptive edge so others can benefit from what you’ve experienced.
Let IT Rain
I certainly hope they did not advise him to sue. I do not understand why these guys cannot get it into their heads that going after bloggers is the worst thing they could do. They will lose, and in losing, hurt their witness of the love of Jesus. if I were advising them, I would tell them to turn the other cheek and even love on the bloggers. Such a response would preempt much. But, that takes humility. Real humility not the stuff of Mahaney.
I also believe that O’Neal will withdraw the suit and I agree that Julie Anne should proceed with Anti-Slapp to recoup legal fees and personal costs in this matter. I sure hope O’Neal’s attorney has advised him of the long term ramifications of this suit to his character witness and his church. I predict he will lose members and church income over this one and will rue the day he took this path, kind of a like a certain pastor in Florida.
You are good! I think Chuck is about to get a lesson on the way of the church world which is not unlike, unfortunately, the way of the world, unfortunately. He will suddenly become a person non grata and his idols will not give him the time of day. Maybe Chuck will learn from this that it is really about Jesus.
I, too, would be surprised if they advised a lawsuit. Even more surprised if they admit doing so. I think this incident will prove to be a good lesson for many pastors and ministries. There are many take home points.
Deb quoted, “There are some discerners out there, and they’re not good discerners…most of them are amateur discernment experts that are housewives and homeschool moms…”
You know, you and Dee just need some friendly commenting “guidelines” like these Saturday from Frank T, and mebbe u 2 could become good discerners….
“I will delete any comments which are slanderous toward any people. “Slander” is defined by the dictionary as “a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.” I’m qualifying as “false” anything which is not supported by evidence, and I’m qualifying as “evidence” things done publicly or reported by an objective third party. It’s a narrow gate. See to it.
I will delete any comments which are rehashing things already covered by the AoR Report, or calling the AoR report false or otherwise tainted. The world is not in a conspiracy against the battalion of people who claim SGM is run by the minions of Satan, in spite of some opinions to the contrary.
I will welcome thoughtful reflections on the events, but not accusations or tantrums. “What’s the difference,” you ask? Then you better not comment. Seriously.
I reserve the right to be capricious and utterly unfair in my editorial prerogatives.
The other rules for posting here apply.
Have a nice weekend.” (said apparently through gritted teeth)
Seriously, is CJ threatening to sue these guys if anything negative about him gets through? Or did one of their sons have a counseling session with CJ and confess something?
Did you post the official statement by GTY/Macarthur that Phil J offered? I’m trying to find it.
Dave A A,
It is ironic, isn’t it? I followed the discussion over at Team Pyro about SGM, but I refrained from commenting because it seemed pointless. Someone going by the moniker “dee” commented over there, but it wasn’t my co-blogger because I asked her whether she had participated in the discussion, and she did not.
Whatever they were trying to accomplish on behalf of Mahaney and SGM, I believe it backfired on them.
We have just received a response from Phil Johnson on behalf of John MacArthur and Grace Community Church, and we will be featuring it in a separate post. Look for it later this morning.
Dee – I saw that satire piece on Steve Gaines and the hundreds who have died for not tithing, it is a HOOT!!!
I am going to put something up on my blog today about it – would like to post the entire thing if they will let me.
Here is the link for the Wartburg Watch readers: http://bit.ly/KYbNV4
I saw it, too. Sergius and his blogging buddies are so talented!
I just added a new post to my blog “Anticipation”. Oh, Deeeeeeeeeeee!!!! Can you hear me? LOL
I know that in my (our) case this turn of events has been very encouraging. We started a survivor blog about our old church and have had “hints” that if we don’t shut up, we will be sued. I think that this uproar will dissuade many lawsuits and people will be set free to say what they need to say without fear. I’m grateful for so many of you who have been at this for so many years. Brad, Bill, Dee, Sophia, and all you guys are doing a great thing. Thanks from us at http://keystonestatecollege.org/
All’s well at Bellevue
“Great morning at Bellevue. Mothers were honored, Jesus was glorified, people were saved, & Christians were edified. I love this flock.”
“I Love This Flock?”
Does anyone know how to find google comments on the Wayback Machine? I was thinking it might be a good idea to track down O’Neal’s comment (the one that was recently scrubbed) and screencap it. I’m savvy in Wayback Machine usage, just not re: Google map comments. Any takers? If you can find the link on Wayback and post/email it to me, I can screencap. Let me know, y’all.
Oh no. He misspelled. He meant “I love this frock!”
How many people died during the collection?
Dave A A,
Those Pyro commenting guidelines make me want to weep.
Sergius, You guys are so very clever. I absolutely laughed until I cried.
Things are really getting bizarre out there in institutional Christianity. It is like Seinfeld’s “Bizarro world”.
@ Dee & Larry
Does this mean he could be “de-flocked?”
Dave, We hve known for a while that he who makes the rules, wins. What these guys are doing is “redefining” terms so they can be arbiters of the rule definitions which change daily. See, when Frank Turk says it, it is not mean. But if another says it, it “could” be mean depending on Frank’s discernment meter that day and whether he likes the celebrity. Driscoll- bad. Mahaney -wonderful
This is one reason I stay away from those types of blogs. It is a waste of time and they end up with the former victims in knots trying to communicate in impossible limiting ways.
You know, they are so used to setting the rules and everyone else follows it is going to be interesting to see how they try and deal with this latest about the lawsuit. So far, no serious denial that advice did not come from some elder/staff pastor/ someone at McArthurs Grace Community Church. It won’t be the first time that “rules are for the peasant pew sitters but not us”. So who knows.
Brad/futuristguy at 09:58 am
I really appreciate your comment at 09:58 am. I’m going to take it to heart.
Is “deflocked” like taking the white stuff of a Christmas tree?
“He who makes the rules, wins.”
I just got down to the final rule, which appears to be the last word on SGM no matter the future events:
“With that, there you go: SGM survivors have had their say, (over 1 weekend) and then some, on a popular Conservative (implying SGM critics are unpopular or liberal) blog. Let’s be clear: bringing it up again will get you banned.”. I WIN!!
Actually I misquoted Frank. Don’t want to get sued. “popular Conservative BOG. Let’s be clear: BRINING it up…”
Kudos to Julie Anne for her bravery in the face of this intimidation.
This is why we need a vigorous and free mainstream press.
Interesting that Pastor Chuck had his lawyer and his wife speak to the press….hmmm, all bark and no bite, methinks.
Tried to send you an e-mail, but I don’t think it went anywhere. If you didn’t get it, tap me @ firstname.lastname@example.org
Yes. That’s exactly right.
The fact is that all of the pastors that are speaking at the Resolved Conference think alike. Mohler was a speaker at the Shepherds Conference this year. So it is obvious that they endorse and stand by one another. If MacArthur wasn’t one of “them,” he wouldn’t be there.
Sigh……so weary of hearing how the laity has no right to speak out against the clergy. Here is an interesting quote I came across a number of years ago after I had been threatened with a 36 page lawsuit by a pastor and his wife.
I believe this quote from Dr. Jay Adams, in his volume “Grist from Adams’s Mill”, addresses this illegitimate use of Matthew 18 in an attempt to censure public criticism:
“Any Christian who sets himself up as a teacher in the church of Christ and publicly teaches anything thereby opens himself up for criticism by others (cf. James 3:1). If they think what he is teaching is harmful to the church, they have an obligation to point it out just as widely as it was taught. Such public warning or debate on the topic should not be considered a personal attack at all. The teacher’s plea that a critic should first have come to him about his disagreement on the basis of Matthew 18:15 does not hold. This passage has to do with personal wrongs known only between the two, who should privately discuss the matter that separates them. What a critic of a public teaching does in pointing out his disagreement with that teaching has nothing to do with personal affronts or lack of reconciliation; he is simply disagreeing at the same public level as that on which the teaching was given in the first place.” (pg. 69)
That ‘tithe or you’re dead’ article was very funny – however, it reminded me how guilty I used to feel about things like tithing and how worried I got about that kind of stuff. It’s horrible when they preach sermons that are designed to intimidate and scare you and guilt trip you into the ‘right’ religious behaviour.
It reminds me of a sermon a pastor once preached at my old church about the importance of attending church on Sunday mornings. He talked about how a big tsunami had hit a small island on a Sunday. The faithful Christians were in a church up a large hill and were safe, but the unfaithful Christians were out fishing and got killed by the tsunami along with everyone else. The point of his sermon was pretty clear. I know how guilty and scared it made me feel.
It wasn’t until this year that I realised something: had it been a landslide rather than a tsunami then all the Christians in the church would have been killed, and all the Sunday fishing Christians would have been saved. Then perhaps atheists could have used the story as an illustration of why nobody should ever go to church!
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If this guy wins the lawsuit, then every business/church/organization that’s gotten a bad google review should file suits with all their nay-sayers.
“It reminds me of a sermon a pastor once preached at my old church about the importance of attending church on Sunday mornings. He talked about how a big tsunami had hit a small island on a Sunday. The faithful Christians were in a church up a large hill and were safe, but the unfaithful Christians were out fishing and got killed by the tsunami along with everyone else. The point of his sermon was pretty clear. I know how guilty and scared it made me feel.”
A friend of mine attended her mega church for Christmas Sunday services one year. It was her last time. And it was because the shallow cool hip pastor said, “Look around you, the REAL Christians are here”.
RE: Anon1 on Mon, May 14 2012 at 10:59 pm:
Good to see that we can agree on this issue. I have written several letters to my State and Federal lawmakers urging them to look into this situation. Religious organizations have reaped the benefits (501-c3) of religious liberty with no responsibility to society at large for far too long. If they participate in a modern pluralistic democracy with its roads, water, sewage, and infrastructure in general, they should not be exempt from the laws all others must abide by.
Just as an update to brad/futurist…over 257 reviews at Google and the Huffington Post just ran with this story a couple hours ago.
Probably not a good day for Pastor O’neal….
“Interesting that Pastor Chuck had his lawyer and his wife speak to the press….hmmm, all bark and no bite, methinks”
Yeah, where is your comp/patriarchal doctrine when you need it?
And to think, that both of Steve Gaines parents died and are dead. Makes you wonder why?
Chuck will never prevail. In fact, I bet it gets thrown out.
Since I’m getting a good bit of traffic from Julie Anne linking me on her blog a while back, I decided to write a new post on recovering from spiritual abuse. http://www.watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2012/05/recovering-still.html
Huff Post link wasn’t working, even from a search result on their site.
Was it in comments on this post about the misguided home school mom discernment diva bloggers? I feel so offended. 🙂 My skin just keeps getting thicker with these guys, but I still have a tender heart toward the wounded.
See, when Frank Turk says it, it is not mean. But if another says it, it “could” be mean depending on Frank’s discernment meter that day and whether he likes the celebrity. Driscoll- bad. Mahaney -wonderful — Anon1
“It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
— William J Clinton
I think he claims to have preached on the flight deck of a massive aircraft carrier and also preached at Mogadishu during Black Hawk Down-all this after becoming a Christian in the military, and from what I remember, not having any formal pastoral training. I don’t know why he took it down. It sounded so interesting, and I had hoped to talk with someone who had been present at these occasions. — Dee
Did he also claim to be a Navy SEAL?
According to an actual Navy SEAL spokesman (who keeps the roster of actual SEAL veterans to expose impostors), clergy are especially prone to claim being ex-SEALS.
I think that Mars Hill and others are hanging back, waiting to see if one of these suits works in their favor. Then the fireworks begin. — Dee
Sort of the ranging shots before all batteries in range fire for effect?
Having ‘grace’ in the name of a church seems to be just like having ‘democratic’ or ‘people’s’ in the name of a country – guarantees that it’s really the opposite. — Pam
In TV Tropes, this is called “People’s Republic of Tyranny”:
The more words about “Freedom” and “Democracy” there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship that country is.
A “Flock” like in “I love this flock” (comment by Pastor Steve Gaines)
Here’s someone blog post on the subject:
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Please here me out on this, fundmentally when Ephesians says be subject to each other out of reverance to Christ it indicates a readiness to be willing to hear the other out to even cover their back. There is a picture that I saw tonight were the priest were before the pope (and it may not be recent) but they were all prostrating before him. Wartburg hear me on this. Protestant popery that promotes this “just submit” and “forgetta bout it” attitude is just as bad. God hit me with this message several years ago when reading Timothy “watch your testimony and your life.” He hit me with the reality that even if one’s theological point is different from yours to make sure my willingness to hear them out. The late Bob Passatino wrote an excellent article, and its on the web, on The Golden Rule in Apologetics that is really instructs to never assume that somehow if someone has a different view point from you that you have to somehow believe that you have to win the argument and destroy their opinion. I just share and and try to hear their point out. Somewhere in their it may be that there is some hurt in their lives that may be behind their position in the first place that I didn’t see in ther first place. To be honest as I get older truth seems to me like the sun rising and setting on an object, there are different aspects to which one does not see if he is only looking at the object in the morning as compared to the afternoon and in the evening. Shadows blurr objectivity.
“How can she forget that her own beloved pastor knew about a sex offender in the church who had access to the nursery and children on a weekly basis and did not have any safeguards in place.”
I hope whoever arbitrates this case takes notice of this statement and investigates.
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Well said Casey. Why is it that humans have such a hard time learning to live and let live? Why is it that I insist that my neighbor believe as I believe?
Alan Campbell does not appear to be a good source to site. From reading about him I believe he is unbalanced and quite possibly a heretic. For instance, he is strongly against marriages of mixed race. As such, I can not trust him to accurately report the facts.
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