To be risen with Christ means not only that one has a choice and that one may live by a higher law – the law of grace and love – but that one must do so. The first obligation of the Christian is to maintain their freedom from all superstitions, all blind taboos and religious formalities, indeed from all empty forms of legalism. -Thomas Merton
Folks, when a Christian leader, like John Piper, has to write a post like this, Christianity has gone wacko! The fact that he thinks this is a reasonable post to write is even scarier. I believe that much of the blame can be dumped in the laps of the Calvinistas who seem to have precious little to do with their time since they love to write treatises and go to conferences that pontificate on what women can and cannot do.
I contend that complementarianism has been made a primary issue by the Calvinista crowd. Times have changed. Years ago, it did not overly concern me that there were people who believed in a young earth. I subscribed to the CS Lewis philosophy (paraphrased) that people who believe that God has a long white beard will still be able to go to heaven. It was only when I was made a target by a bunch of rabid young earthers who actually believed that a salvation issue might be involved I reconsidered my stance. Then I got interested, real interested.
The same applies to the subject of complementarianism. I knew some folks who believed in strict complementarianism but it was one of those agree to disagree things. That is, until I started to realize that this issue was going in the same direction as the “young earth or be damned” group. For several years, Deb and I have predicted that more and more would need to be written in order to justify a rabid defense of such a doctrine. Unfortunately, we have been proven right.
First came the Eternal Subordination of the Son, which has been used to justify a belief that women will submit to men in all eternity. I do not know if these men understand that I would consider it hell if I were forced to submit to the likes of Driscoll, et al. for eternity.
Then John Piper and Tim Challies came out with a new mandate that women are not allowed to read the Bible out loud in church services. Challies, in a post I like to call "Hubris Rising," also "instructs" the great unwashed males in proper breathing and diction techniques, appearing to indicate that stutterers and those with COPD need not apply.Link
Finally, there was the startling Russell Moore pronouncement that he strongly dislikes the term “complementarians” and prefers the word “patriarchy." Link. This causes me to giggle whenever I hear this term. I have this image of Al Mohler and CJ Mahaney dressed in long robes carrying shepherd’s crooks, not unlike the Pope, followed by hordes of admiring hangers on and women popping grapes in their mouths on command. But, I digress.
So, where do we go from here? We have predicted that an emphasis on authoritarianism, combined with complementarianism, both within the church and within families, could lead to abuse and bizarre behavior.
The following “article” here by John Piper, written for the Christian Post and adapted from a previous presentation, shows how far this can go. He answered the following question. "Do you think complementarianism is so important to some people that they deny women more opportunities than the Bible denies them?”
Piper says that problems develop when people do not understand complementarianism, presumably, as well as he does. “But the problem there is not that complementarianism is important, but it's that they don't understand it.”
He then gives the following illustration.
“I dealt with a couple one time. They were sitting in front of me, and she said, "He learned from you that I have to get permission from him for everything I do." I said, "Really? Like what?" And she said, "To go to the bathroom! He won't let me leave the room without his permission. If I get up and walk out of the room, he says, 'Hey, you're supposed to ask me first.'"
That's not because the man values complementarianism. That's not complementarianism. That's sick! So we do deny women things that we shouldn't deny them, if we're sick.”
Domestic abuse
Piper says this is “sick.” It is beyond sick. It is an indication that there is a high probability of domestic violence in this situation. He should have addressed this subject, front and center, in his post. It is vital that Christian pastors who “counsel” couples be aware of the signs and symptoms of abuse. If he did get this couple some help, I would suggest that he say so. If he did not, then he needs to reevaluate his “Biblical clarity.”
Here is my admonition for any woman finding herself in such a situation. Get out, immediately! Then get some counseling, preferably with someone who can say something more than “this is sick.”
Unwise decisions?
Piper goes on to address the issue of what women can and cannot do in the church. And let me tell you, he gets flakey. He talks about “unwise” decisions and gives no examples of what he considers “unwise” beyond the “bathroom” example.
After dismissing women as not being able to be elders in a church, he then says"
“What kind of Sunday school classes they teach, what ages of boys they teach-those are ambiguities, and I'm sure there are people who make unwise decisions at that point in the restriction of women. Or the woman could carry on a speaking ministry among women, and some men begin to gravitate into those things. I mean, things like that.”
Apply Biblical clarity?
Piper then discusses that we should be sensitive in how we apply “biblical clarity” in such situations. However, he adds no “clarity” to this situation except to say that women do not have to ask their husbands permission to go to the bathroom. Why does he not “clarify” his belief structure in this matter? Could it be that it might be a bit awkward for him?
Is he aware that some of his buddies have encouraged some distinctly odd and even abusive behaviors, on occasion? Piper says,“And we're going to probably make different judgments about that.” He is discussing Biblical clarity and then says we are going to see things differently? So much for "clarity." There's the rub. Here are “examples” of "clarity" and "differing judgements" that have been reported by those who claim to have attended churches that are pastored by good buddies of Piper.
- Women must ask their husband’s permission to attend Bible study.
- Women must drop what they are doing and bring coffee to their husbands at work as soon as they are commanded. (A game a few pastors played to “show” the obedience of their wives.”
- Women should sit in the back of the church.
- Women should not go to college.
- Daughters should stay at home with daddy until they are married and should tend to daddy’s needs.
- Women should not teach baptized boys.
Once again, when men must state that a woman does not need to ask her husband’s permission to go to the bathroom, then something is very, very wrong and it bodes ill for the “trajectory” of the complementarian movement. Now, could someone please pass the Charmin (unless your husband prefers White Cloud).
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 35:1-36:38 James 1:1-18 Psalm 116:1-19 Proverbs 27:23-27
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Sad as it sounds, I’ve heard women who killed their husbands and went to prison say they prefer prison to their life with their husband. When asked why, their response was that “at least they could go to the bathroom without asking.”
🙁
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Yep, I had heard this one before.
It is sick that Piper is so clueless.
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Before I turned to satirical blogging, I was a college-level public speaking instructor for eighteen years.
Where does Tim Challies get off lecturing anyone on how to speak properly???!!!
Are you kidding me??? Have any of you listened to his podcast (with David Murray)?
I couldn’t believe it when I saw that. Now I have to pee.
SMG
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I am so disgusted that I’m headed for the shower. In this household, no permission needed…
My hubby is absolutely disgusted with these patriarchs and has been for literally decades!
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Deb
Question is: Did he ask you if he could go to the bathroom?
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Biblical clarity demonstration:
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When I was in the patriarchy “camp” for awhile there was this wild thing going about communion. Husbands would serve their wives and daughters communion at family-integrated church. If for some reason Papa wasn’t available to do so, then the oldest son or next oldest son would do it. Mama & daughters could not/should not go get their own communion.
Yes, for real.
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http://i.imgur.com/iPX8T.gif
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Well, if women aren’t meant to do higher education, that makes me – a PhD student who’s already completed both a bachelors and a masters degree – an evil heathen.
These men really are so very scared of intelligent and independent women, aren’t they?
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Dee,
Absolutely not! These people are insane.
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David+All Readers
Go to the hysterical link on david’s comment.
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A bit of comic relief – who remembers this?
“Don’t squeeze the Charmin!”
Mr. Whipple was a patriarch!!!
Remember, always buy two-ply TP… It’s softer.
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The devil is always in the details of this false doctrine which is why they stay away from them and stay in the gray areas. That leads to confusion and stifling of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.
So, at what age is a boy a man and a woman can no longer teach him? I know one pastor who said he saw one church allow a “video” of a woman teaching but would not allow her to do it in person. Mrs. Criswell of FBCDallas taught a mixed class for years that was even on the radio. Her reasoning? She was under her husbands authority. But he was not in the room. So, what does that mean? If women are not to teach men, it is ok if the pastor says it is ok? What does that say about him?
The problems are endless with this doctrine. We would need a standardized Christian Talmud of laws. In fact, this doctrine interpreted by so many in different ways operates as a sort of Talmud.
And woman are either paralyzed by it or use it to hide from developing their spiritual gifts. But the worst thing about it is that people are focused on roles instead of Christ. Satan is delighted.
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Thanks David! I could just hear the flowery adjectives and adverbs flowing out of his passionate mouth. Methinks his message would not work without all the flowery language. It covers up the problems. It is not just submission, it is JOYFUL submission. So if you are not joyful at all times when submitting you are in sin.
BTW: Joyfully submit to abuse “for a season”.
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Dee said:
“I do not know if these men understand that I would consider it hell if I were forced to submit to the likes of Driscoll, et al. for eternity.”
This is so true!
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This is not true complementarianism. It is authoritarian patriarchy plain and simple. A dictatorship of males, by males and for males.
And women, well, they can pray quietly, serve the interests of their father, brothers and husband, take care of the children, and look how free they are, they can go potty all by themselves, without needing permission.
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Perhaps as their rules become more and more bizarre, the sheep will realize they are following the wrong shepherds. One can only hope.
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And so comes the predictable locking of the barn door after the horse has bolted.
John Piper is going to discover that he will be unable to dial back his acolytes after this many decades. In fact, somewhere out there at this very moment there are no doubt some “disappointed” followers, chagrined at his “compromise with the world”.
They have sown the wind. They are going to reap the whirlwind.
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Arce –
Isn’t that what Jesus told Martha and Mary? (sarcasm)
I picture Mary sitting at Jesus’ feet in a room filled with mostly men 🙂
We all know what Jesus said.
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I was surprised by your quote from Thomas Merton. Did you know that he did not believe that Jesus was the only way of salvation. He was a Catholic priest who dabbled in the Eastern religions?
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If “women should not teach baptized boys”, then that’ll kill it for home schooling, yes?
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Haitch, the hard core patriachal hoomeschoolers often do have Mom pass the teaching baton to Dad when it comes to the older boys. The boys are also expected to help Dad with the family business.
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patriarchal**, homeschoolers**… time to find a pillow.
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I’m not about to endorse a rejection of all Piper’s teaching or anything, but if someone was using MY writing to justify “sick” behavior, I would at least be open to a serious reconsideration of what I wrote. It appears that Piper is not too phased that his work could be so easily misunderstood. Everybody get’s misunderstood at times, heck the Bible has been used to justify some heinous things. But clarity and consistency are not things the complementarian Calvinists are known for, at least not on that issue. I’d like to see a good scholarly debate on this topic. I have some respect for the teaching of Piper, Moore, and some of their buds (though it seems to fade by the day), but I’d really like to see how they fare with an intelligent gauntlet of pointed inquiries from lead thinkers of the other stripe. It would be an educational experience for all. What would you call a version of the Elephant Room focused on the debate about gender roles?
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“I’d like to see a good scholarly debate on this topic.”
Puke.
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Miguel – I don’t think you’re going to see the kind of serious academic debate as is common in apologetics. I’d personally like to see a debate between oh, Dr. Mimi Haddad and Dr. Andreas Kostenberger — people who are legitimate academics with differing views. Not that I think it would ever happen.
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I am in agreement with you here. I believe churches where Calvinistas congregate (I call them right hand dominant churches) are usually strong on this idea that submission means that the person who is in the subjugated place also must relinquish of all their voting power.
As an example, I was really attracted to an “elder-led, family integrated” church in my town after I left the institutional church that I had attended for years. My wife got a weird vibe about this church and could pick up on controlling speech used by the teaching elder there. The teaching elder had a dominant hand over the activities there. I remember one comment that really turned me away when he stated, “Some of you, who have not grown up in this church, have been steeped in the idea of Democracy – that ‘my vote is a good as any one else’s.” He proceeded that the Bible does not teach democracy in the church when it comes to what the elders have declared. When I saw what my wife saw, I never visited again.
It occurred to me that, in these right hand dominant Calvinist churches, you have no voting power. In fact, they strip you of any vote cast or any outcry against tyranny in the church. The elders make all of the decisions and do not include the subjugates in the voting process. I think a litmus test for any good church would be based on two questions. Do I share equal voting power with the elders of the church? Also, am I considered a partner or a servant to the elders of the church? One way to make sure this happens is to call them your leaders, which Jesus said not to do. For, He is the only leader to the believer. Anyone who expects you to call them leader has already eliminated you from the voting process.
The answers to these questions I mentioned can give one a good indication of whether or not a church is safe to attend.
I asked my wife the other day, Do you believe that you have voting power in our marriage? She replied, “Sometimes I feel like I have too much voting power.” I then told my wife, “Good, this is how it should be.”
I pose the question to all of these Calvinistas, Is your wife your partner or your servant? Do you use Bible verses to selfishly eliminate her influence in the partnership to which you purportedly have been called?
Thanks for this great post.
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I’m curious about what other debates people would like to see. I cold also see Craig Keener, Deborah Gil, or Gordon Fee against any of the complementarians du jour.
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I had stopped commenting, but then the things you claimed to be complementarianism were too absolutely absurd! I understand you are relaying what people have told you, but I have never heard anyone in the complementarianism camp hold to your bulleted points. You won’t find defense for them in any books on the subject either. I know you hate complementarianism, but you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this instance by using extreme examples to make your point.
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Anon1 – I left you a couple of replies to your comment re. there not being conferences, etc. back in the 70s and 80s in the comments on the previous post.
You might want to take a look…
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Joe –
I’ve personally heard the ‘women shouldn’t go to college’ line, as well as the slightly altered ‘well women can go to college in order to find a husband, but they’re not to go there to really study and prepare for a career or anything’. I’ve also had men say to me that a man should be able to decide everything about their family, from what school their kids should attend to what books his wife is allowed to read. And it wasn’t in a ‘well, we’ll talk about it and then the husband gets the deciding vote’ way, it was ‘the man is the voice from heaven who decides all’.
That’s just a couple of examples of things I’ve personally heard, and I’ve only had a few conversations on this stuff with people.
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“Extreme examples…”?
Hardly.
The latest:
Quick Thoughts – Science take it or leave it
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Joe –
I don’t know why you say anyone hates anyone. Not good. On the contrary, some comps state that those who don’t hold their same view might be diluting the gospel somehow.
I have been in a comp church for 14 years. Women were not encouraged to have Bible studies. The small groups, led by men, were not encouraged to study the Bible. Small groups are encouraged to read suggested books and review application questions concerning the Sunday sermon. The pastors seemed to think that it was not good for the common folk to study scripture unless it is through the doctrinal lenses they prescribe. Thankfully, my husband and I broke the rules. I even studied books in the Bible with the women.
There are plenty of men and women on this blog who have been or are in comp environments. Why don’t you ask them what happens in their worlds?
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It is not just submission, it is JOYFUL submission. So if you are not joyful at all times when submitting you are in sin.
BTW: Joyfully submit to abuse “for a season”. — Anon1
See all the North Koreans Dancing Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader — JOYFUL JOYFUL JOYFUL!
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Folks, when a Christian leader, like John Piper, has to write a post like this…
Not a “post”, Dee — a FATWA.
And not a “Christian Leader” — a Christian Ayatollah.
Wouldn’t these Calvinistas be happier in Extreme (Talibani) Islam? Utter Predestination, God’s Omnipotence, and Complementarianism on steroids. Why drink it watered down with the Calvinistas when you can have it straight on the rocks with the Mullahs?
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I need to get my burka out and dust it off.
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^With your husband’s permission, of course.”
Pingback: John Piper: Women Are Free to Go to the Bathroom Without A Man's … – speakingintonguesblogs
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I agree with Miguel. If someone misinterpreted my writing this way, I would be going back over it (I hope) with a fine-toothed comb until I found which statement(s) had been so grossly abused; and when I found said statement(s), I would IMMEDIATELY rewrite them to eliminate all confusion as to what I meant.
I can tell John Piper what he said that was misused so badly by this couple. He, and other comp preachers, say often that women need to submit in all cases, unless their husbands are asking them to sin. That’s a pretty absolute statement, probably meant to be interpreted with common sense. But many people don’t have common sense, and thus they land in patriarchy.
This “toilet training” incident exemplifies so many things so clearly:
1. Comps/conservative evangelicals in general LOVE to talk about how women should submit. After abortion, gay marriage and evolution, it’s probably their favorite topic. Problem is, they love it so much that they forget to mention the other side of the coin – that men need to love their wives, that the man’s body belongs to the wife, etc. When they do mention these things, they’re essentially throwaway lines that the men in the congregation just don’t hear. If a comp pastor were to harp on the man’s instructions the way he harped on the women’s, I predict he would offend/lose a (possibly large) number of men in his church.
2. Complementarianism, if it wants to maintain its credibility, needs to do some ruthless, RUTHLESS housecleaning. Like this:
“You like the word patriarchy? Get out. You think women should submit to any kind of abuse, in any way, for any length of time? Get out. You think women should be less educated than men in some way? Get out. You’re not a complementarian. You’re a patriarch, and we’re not going to let you pollute our label any longer. From this day forward, we’re going to refer to you as a patriarch and denounce you as a patriarch SO loudly that no one will EVER think you’re associated with complementarianism EVER again.”
But of course, they will never do this. First, because it would eliminate some major leaders in the comp movement; second, because they would lose HUGE numbers of followers. It continues to mystify me why they drag this crap into complementarianism. Thus why I decided to examine the egal position more closely, and am now on the fence.
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@ Joe:
Those things they listed may be extreme, but they are not uncommon. I grew up in the conservative evangelical homeschool “bubble,” and let me tell you, I have seen at least two of the things listed there. And let’s see, what else…
Mr. T would only let Mrs. T drive the car/leave the house two days a week.
Mrs. B bought a new skirt at the mall. When she brought it home, Mr. B told her she already had too many in that style and she had to return it. She did.
Innumerable mothers saying their daughters were “ONLY going to be wives and mothers” so they didn’t need to learn geometry, physics, etc.
Little boys trying to command their younger sister to do her chores because “boys rule girls!” I’ve also heard this one used against girls who complained to the boys that they were bullying them.
A local homeless ministry was raffling off tickets to a college basketball game to raise money. A man called them and reprimanded them because, according to the Bible, women were not supposed to break a sweat.
Note: these are only the stories that relate to submission/headship. If I included the courtship stories, the legalistic censorship stories, and the young-earth stories, the list would be MUCH longer. Maybe I should just write a book. : )
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Hester: True, they harp on and on about female submission but there is rarely an instruction on how men should love their wives. Instead, it’s about ‘being a good leader’, making decisions for the family and not letting your wife take the power. But with all this emphasis on making decisions, and none on being loving (they throw in the word ‘loving’ but don’t demonstrate how this would look) then the husbands are more likely to commit selfish actions. Because all they’ve heard is: ‘she must submit to you always and you must lead her always.’
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I have an idea. That particular husband should go with his wife to the bathroom and pray God takes the *#@% off his mind. One wonders, however, if man would then become an invalid.
Sickening. The logical end to patriarchy, but still sickening.
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I agree that the complementarian pastors/teachers/leaders ought to take a closer look at what they’re teaching and how they’re communicating it if people are taking it to such extremes.
Here’s another real life example of how messed up people’s lives can become because of these teachings – A friend of mine who used to be in the same SGM church as me (she left years before I did) recently told me about how the husband leading and wife submitting was emphasized so much in her care group (and she bought into it) that she got to the point where she would practically have a nervous breakdown in the grocery store trying to decide what to buy. She was so afraid that she would not choose what her husband would want her to get that she couldn’t make a simple decision like what brand of toilet paper to buy without consulting him first. And this is a highly intelligent woman I’m talking about! Her husband didn’t put this burden on her at all. She picked it up from the other women in her group. Thank God she has been delivered out of this nonsense.
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When did the Taliban move to the United States? The only thing that is more moronic than their statements is their inflated sense of self importance.
Hillary Clinton once stated that the American people need the Democratic party to rule over them because they are too stupid to realize it. Sounds like the YRR crowd believes the same about the church.
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Oops, I forgot one.
A different Mr. B, upon hearing the story of my great-grandmother who left her abusive husband after one hit, wondered out loud if her action was too drastic and then hemmed and hawed about it for the next ten minutes. This same Mr. B believes that any animal that hurts a human should be immediately killed. (For instance, when his two-year-old daughter was playing at their neighbor’s house, the neighbor’s gerbil bit her and he offered to snap its neck.) So an animal with no moral or reasoning faculties, acting on instinct when it felt threatened, should be killed for its “offense.” But a human man, in the image of God, endowed with reason and a conscience, who will one day be judged by God, gets a slap on the wrist.
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Victorious said:
“Perhaps as their rules become more and more bizarre, the sheep will realize they are following the wrong shepherds. One can only hope.”
Animal Farm, anyone?
“ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS”
George Orwell
If it’s been a long time since you read Animal Farm I strongly encourage you to take the time read it. There are scary similarities between the Calvinistas and the protagonist pigs in Orwell’s book. You can access it online here.
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Joe –
If you do run into people who have been harmed by these practices, please, please, please do not tell them that what happened to them is not complementarianism. Even if you do not believe that it is. These things are taught in certain quarters and the women (and sometimes the men, too) suffer under these teachings out of a love for God and belief in a “complementary lifestyle. It is terribly cruel to then tell them that they were just doing it wrong. This happens pretty regularly. I understand that you have not done this since you did not direct your comment to someone abused by these teachings. I just want you to be aware how such comments harm those already abused under these teachings.
Joe, you might want to google “symbolic traditionalism pragmatic egalitarianism” The people who are practicing that – which there are many – call it complementarianism and really have no idea what else is taught under the doctrine.
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Another example… I was at a meal gathering where there were numerous leftovers. When the hostess asked one of the women (with a growing family) if she wanted to take a bunch of the rolls home, the woman said she had to ask her husband.
Her husband had total control over their menus and everything they ate. If he didn’t think a food fit their paradigm, they didn’t eat it.
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Eagle,
Remember that Mark Driscoll screens his wife’s emails.
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Anon1
You said, “Mrs. Criswell of FBCDallas taught a mixed class for years that was even on the radio. Her reasoning? She was under her husbands authority. But he was not in the room. So, what does that mean?”
It means absolutely nothing. Try to get these guys to explain authority, covering etc., in any meaningful way and you will find that they are up to their eyeballs in baloney. They cannot do it in any consistent way.
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Arce
This bears repeating. “And women, well, they can pray quietly, serve the interests of their father, brothers and husband, take care of the children, and look how free they are, they can go potty all by themselves, without needing permission.” I wish I had said it that way in the post.
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Victorious
You said, “Perhaps as their rules become more and more bizarre, the sheep will realize they are following the wrong shepherds.”
The excesses of the First and Second “Great Awakenings” are what led to the demise. When people commit suicide because the doctrine of total depravity is pushed to its extreme, then someone has forgotten the God of Love who came to love and redeem His people.
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That Bad Dog
You said, “John Piper is going to discover that he will be unable to dial back his acolytes after this many decades. In fact, somewhere out there at this very moment there are no doubt some “disappointed” followers, chagrined at his “compromise with the world”.”
Great insight that unfortunately is true.
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Debbie
I have quoted from John Piper and Albert Einstein. That does not mean I endorse their entire life and everything that they do. You can see how I feel about Piper throughout this blog. If they say something which rings true, then I quote it.
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Haitch
Do you not know the caveat on this one? The moment a woman walks over the threshold of a “church” building, you stop being allowed to do lots of things. So, a female president would not be allowed to teach in church because her location is now on “holy ground.” I hope you get the sarcasm.
Second caveat, a woman cannot teach “baptized” boys until they run out of teachers. Then, voila, someone “discovers” a doctrine that says she can now teach them.
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Run of the mill
I thank you for your great comment. You were wise to get our of Dodge.. If there is no “democracy” in the church, we will have tyranny because that is the history of man. One only need look at the nonsense perpetrated in some of the ministries such as SGM to understand it.
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Joe
I am glad your life in Calvinista villa has been a bed of roses. I used to be just like you. I wrote exactly what we have posted about and discussed before. But, it’s OK. Nothing will change, and all is well.
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Pam
Thank you for adding to the education of Joe.
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Bridget2
Joe is in a comp church and really, really, likes it. He becomes irritated when people disagree with his premise of “my church is just wonderful.” He does not want to hear anything different, and his function is to come into the discussion to categorically deny anything we say.
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HUG
And you know what happens if they do not dance and shout “JOYFULLY?” Thankfully, today’s churches are not allowed to use prison cells.
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justabeliever
I got an email from a woman who was incensed that I said that wearing veils will be instituted before long. You see, she wears a veil at her church which is now encouraging women to do just that.
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Eagle
The one thing they do not ban is the wearing of flashy jewelry. That is in the NT as well. BTW, on the Midol issue, I am waiting for some Great spiritual leader” to do something like that since women must bear children in pain. Pain will become the mark of a “gospel” woman.
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Sallie
That woman is at high risk of being abused. This stuff scares me.
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I have been reading various things on the importance on reading and centrality of word of God to where churches are advised to build their assembly in a semicircle around the reading. In trying to find a good church to have a wedding I was told this was why churched were designing this buildiings differently.
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“You won’t find defense for them in any books on the subject either. I know you hate complementarianism, but you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this instance by using extreme examples to make your point”
Joe, Just a few things Piper has taught over the years:
1. Women should not give directions to men in a way that might look like they are “instructing” them.
2. Women should take “abuse for a season”.
3. If a woman has a job with male direct reports, she should only offer “suggestions” but never give orders because it is not natural for a woman to have any authority over a man.
There is more but it is all out there on the net if you care to look–try CBMW for starters. Piper is proud of these teachings.
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Dee –
What in the world was “the woman who wears a veil” doing reading this blog? It seems to me that this blog would be on a “no, no” list for someone who feels they should wear a veil.
If Piper didn’t get the man and woman in his example some long-term help, then he should not be pastoring. If a man believed he should have that kind of dominion over anyone, then he has issues.
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“Hillary Clinton once stated that the American people need the Democratic party to rule over them because they are too stupid to realize it. Sounds like the YRR crowd believes the same about the church.”
Randall, there is more to this than I think people are giving due. There is a strong political (control) element to Calvinism many are ignoring. If you have not been around lots of YRR guys on blogs, at church, seminary, you might not pick up on it. There is an almost fanatical belief in “Calvinism”. Not Jesus, mind you but “Calvin”. They see themselves as the arbiters of truth and this belief means they deserve power to “teach” you. I hear it all the time: They must be properly discipled. Most churches have not taught truth. (Note, some of them are saying they preach to totally depraved audiences…Chandler and Dever both have said this. This is very significant and fits in with the political aspect)
They will deny that they think non Calvinists are not saved but their continual words make that questionable. They have truth and they must have power over you to make you believe it or discipline you.
This is a scary bunch. But how exactly is this thinking different from Calvin’s thinking and behavior in the 1500′? There is a statist mentality in this New Calvinism that is chilling.
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Joe
I am glad your life in Calvinista villa has been a bed of roses. — Dee
Of course it is. Joe is one of the ELECT, and more important for this thread, a MAN.
“I thank Thee, God, that I was not born a WOMAN…”
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It means absolutely nothing. Try to get these guys to explain authority, covering etc., in any meaningful way … — Dee
…and it all comes down to (minus the eight-syllable words of theobabble) “ME MAN! ME WANT FILL-IN-THE-BLANK! YOU WOMAN! YOU! SHUT! UP! GOD HATH SAID!”
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Joe said: “…I have never heard anyone in the complementarianism camp hold to your bulleted points.”
One’s experience in complementarian circles is largely defined by a single factor: possession or lack of a penis. Joe is obviously a lucky member of the former group (excuse the pun).
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All men have one, some men live like they are one.
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I admit I have always been a non-conformist. After following Buddhist philosophy for years, I was dramatically converted to Christ – alone at home- when I was in my thirties. I spent a year praying and studying the scriptures (and reading Christian books by the likes of D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones) before attending a church for the first time ever. By that time, I was wonderfully grounded in my freedom and security in Christ and I imagined I would find like-minded people when I started attending a reformed Baptist church. Sadly I was a misfit from the beginning but I persevered (on and off) for nearly 20 years in different reformed churches. I grew in leaps and bounds despite the church …. maybe because I was continually forced to cling to Christ and examine the scriptures for myself to see what really mattered.
I know HOW I persevered – Christ was the focus of my life, not the institutional church. My husband (who isn’t a Christian and with whom I have a mutualist relationship) and two children were also my priority. But now I ask myself WHY I persevered!
A few “highlights” from my time in comp circles:
-A pastor referring to women’s bible studies as “fools sharing their ignorance”. This man had a terrible temper and was very disrespectful to his wife.
-A pastor (one of the good guys) being kicked out of the church because he didn’t believe in a young Earth – even though he didn’t preach about or teach his point of view.
-Teaching on John Piper’s “all women should submit to all men” etc. I snorted through my nose with laughter when I first heard that one. It was no laughing matter though and the beginning of the end for me……
-A pastor teaching that a woman was to submit to her husband and do whatever he told her to do as long it wasn’t sin. This was the example he gave: if her husband expected it, she should mow the lawn, cook the dinner, bath the kids and bring him tea while he lay on the couch watching TV.
Having God-given wisdom and discernment, how could I keep quiet when faced with erroneous ideas and questionable practices? I was obviously a woman who didn’t know her place! HA!
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Bridget2
A veiled attack dog?
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dee @ 8.45: Back in the good old 16th century, they used to burn midwives who offered herbal painkillers during labour. For exactly the reason you gave. They thought that anything that stops women living out Eve’s curse (the very one that Christ freed us from, btw) was ‘witchcraft’.
It wouldn’t surprise me if a modern day patriarch rehashed the idea, minus the witchcraft and burning-at-the-stake parts. My response to him would be: well, if women are supposed to purposefully live out Eve’s punishment (and there is nothing in the Bible that says so) then by sheer logic you should be picking up a shovel and digging up the nearest field. Come on, chop chop! I’ll just be over here bleeding quietly while your back breaks under the sun. 🙂 Don’t come back until it’s dark.
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http://www.notunderbondage.com/pdfs/critiqueofcbmwsstatementonabuse.pdf
This is a critique of CBMW’s statement on abuse. It’s interesting because CBMW cites ‘failure to submit’ as a form of abuse committed *by a woman against her husband*. So… if your husband wants you to ask permission to pee then by John Piper’s standards, that man is ‘sick’. Yet is a woman doesn’t submit to that demand, SHE is the one who is being abusive. Go figure.
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Anne –
Well how about patriarchs that don’t allow for the removal of ectopic pregnancies? Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) doesn’t think that women should receive that particular form of health care. I suppose that is one way to experience Eve’s curse.
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Whew! What a relief! So glad I can go to the potty without asking my husband.
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Dana: Seeing as that’s more about their strict conservative no-abortion-ever views, I don’t think it has so much to do with Eve’s curse. Although yes, that is one way to experience it.
Patriarchs have zero empathy for women and 100% enthusiasm for their own pleasure in life, so of course Doug Phillips would spew crap about dying in pregnancy being ‘the right thing to do.’ But I bet you that if he was ever faced with the choice of driving off a cliff or running down a child, he would pick the latter.
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The CBMW website is down. I wanted to read their statement.
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Again, I admonish us all…we must never accept their premise in any form. I do NOT believe that it is unnatural for a woman to have authority; I do NOT believe that the Bible teaches complementarianism unequivocally. These are the premises from which THEY start.
I say that there is no complimentarianism done right. There is only female subordination, and this to me goes against the second greatest commandment. This is what happens, though, when you proof text your doctrines. All of a sudden the “husband is the head of the wife” becomes, “a female boss can’t command a male subordinate”. The logical extension of all of these neo-Reformed doctrines always becomes abusive because in the end, there is no way to condemn the “extreme” version because the “extreme” version of their doctrine is ALWAYS in keeping with the fundamental premise of the “normal” version.
Or, said another way:
When dealing with any of these “doctrines” not only are the “extreme” versions important, but they are the most instructive. Time and time again, you will come to the conclusion that these extreme versions are really just logical extensions of the original premise. They are the sand on which the house is built.
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I’m not married and my father wants me to do what my heart – and God – wants me to do. I’m very happy in this business training program and am looking forward to being an office manager. Yes, there will be men in my office. Dear Doug Phillips and John Piper – seeing as I’m obeying both my dad and God, am I doing the right thing by being a successful businesswoman? 😛 😛 😛
P.S:: I don’t give a $#!% what you think.
Argo: the ‘female boss can’t command a male subordinate’ is a twisted version of the ‘I permit not a woman to exercise authority over a man’ verse. 1 Timothy something something…?
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Argo,
I agree with you. The term “complementarianism” came into existence in the late 1980s. Here’s the link to the post that discusses its creation for those who haven’t read it.
Complementarians Pushing CBMW at 2012 Together for the Gospel
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I love that gif, David.
And I’m hoping that Sergius Martin-George will grace us with a picture of Christian Hedonist™ toilet paper.
Satire is the only sane response to this level of ridiculousity. (I know that’s not a word. It should be.)
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René
Me too!!! Love the trademark symbol.
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What separates Christianity apart from all other religions, and what did separate it from the time the 10 Commandments were handed down, is the understanding of the fundamental worth and the freedom of the individual, and the right of that individual to own his or her mind and the sum of their work. We are not allowed to covet or to steal, by God’s DIRECT command. For this command to be possible, it must be accepted that individuals have a God-given right to the ownership of all things related to the honest products of their minds (or will) and hands. The doctrine of female submission by definition denies this to women because it makes the man the arbiter of the female’s mind and will. The 10 Commandments were given to both men and women; Jesus’s sacrifice was complete and total for both men and women; therefore, it is not in keeping with the Gospel, from my perspective, to deny women a fundamental right afforded them by their belief in Christ.
This would be true for secular women as well; for they also have a CONSTITUTIONAL right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. In addition, having been made in God’s image, they too, even though unsaved, have the right to the ownership of the product of their wills and hands as God’s children.
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Dana
Ectopics are lethal to the woman!
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Dee –
Yes they are. How Doug Phillips can put forth his view on treating ectopic pregnancies is beyond me.
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dee @ 8.45: Back in the good old 16th century, they used to burn midwives who offered herbal painkillers during labour. For exactly the reason you gave. They thought that anything that stops women living out Eve’s curse (the very one that Christ freed us from, btw) was ‘witchcraft’. — Anne
And when surgical anesthesia was developed in the 19th Century, clerics made the same argument against it. Queen Victoria had to put her foot down in-person to get anesthesia/painkillers accepted for labor.
I would like to point out that the 16th and 17th Centuries were the all-time peak of Witch-Hunting (especially the 17th, in the war zones of the English Civil War and Thirty Years’ War).
And Witchfinders were paid from the confiscated property of the witches they burned. (As in Witchfinder splits the swag with accuser and judges — you can see where that’s heading right there.)
Despite its reputation, the Spanish Inquisition didn’t do much witch-hunting; its Inquisitors were on a fixed salary. When they did roll on a Witchcraft accusation, the actual charge was the Heresy of Attributing Too Much Power to the Devil — something today’s Spiritual Warfare types should keep in mind.
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Dana
Ectopics are lethal to the woman! — Dee
“It’s only a woman.”
— any Godly Commander of Gilead from The Handmaid’s Tale
Dee –
Yes they are. How Doug Phillips can put forth his view on treating ectopic pregnancies is beyond me. — Dana
See above.
Also, how much personal danger is Doug Phillips in from an ectopic pregnancy?
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Oh my, what a heathen I must be!
Educated.
Teaching a mixed SS.
No longer member of my SBC church in my mind, still am in theirs.
Member of the liberal old UMC but needed as a teacher in the even more liberal ELCA, under a woman preacher in both cases.
But GUESS WHAT?
In both of those denominations and both local churches I am seeing the quiet surging of real old fashioned Spirit led revival, as people get right with God and then get right with each other and then move out to serve the needs of the community and evangelize.
While my heart spurns some of the more bizarre liberal teachings, there at least is room for Christ on the throne of the individual’s heart.
Which opens the door for God to speak.
Good stuff happening, and the next major move of God may just be bringing the dry bones of the mainlines to life!
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Did you realise how thinly many are weaving their words about what’s right or wrong for a woman to do? How detailed the whole thing is? Well, this is what came to my mind after reading this post and the comments:
Matthew 23:23-28 – “‘Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices – mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law – justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 ‘Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 ‘Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.”
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His view on ectopics makes no sense at all.
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Joe:
Your experience may tell you that people who believe in complementary roles do not go off the deep end.
I, too, believe that the Bible teaches that men are supposed to be pastors, elders, but I have seen the kind of weirdness referred to in this post.
I don’t mind the term “complementarian” as a descriptor, but I can tell you that many times when theological terms like that get substituted in every day parlance for the terms the Bible actually uses, people can go off the rails. That’s because they are not trying to stick with the text, but a sublte shift occurs such that they are sticking with “what is complementarian” rather than “what does the Bible say?”
Our church believes that pastors or elders should be men. That is as far as we believe the Bible goes.
But we have had people (usually newcomers who drift in from different backgrouns) ask why women take up the offering, read scripture in public, pray in public, help hand out communinion, teach Sunday School etc. Some have said “that’s not complementarian.”
In other words, they have substituted scriptural interpretation for the term “complementarian” and are trying to project from that term the various things that are “allowed” or “not allowed.”
It is a flawed process, and it can produce weird results.
But you do make a point. That is, that not all or even many or most complementarians can be shown to do these weird things. However, all people who do the weird things in this area are complementarians.
It would be like me saying that all so-called egalitarians are liberal because there all liberals are egalitarians.
That is not so any more than the reverse is true.
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Hey do you guys have any links or any more specifics about those last claims in the Under Biblical Clarity? Those things are UNBELIEVEABLE. I just wondered if you had any info on it. Yikes.
~Kathryn
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Just imagine a scenario where a young elder, in his late 20’s or early 30’s, trying to “discipline” a man or woman twice his age because this individual happens to disagree on some point related to “home group” – this is what happened in a mega church in the Pacific NW.
I think the complementarians do not know the Scripture 1 Tim 5:1-2; I did not see they respects older folks at all, men or women yet, they claim they are biblical. They love to quote scriptures to oppress others, especially women who to them are second class citizens, for sure.
Women might be pleased to “submit” if the men love them as Christ loves the church and gives Himself for her. The comps love themselves and lord it over women to satisfy the self-idolatry. It’s ridiculous to expect something (=submission) when they fail to deliver right out the gate.
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Run of the Mill:
While I agree with your story about the church you attended and am glad you left, it does not necessarily follow that the model of the NT is pure democracry, as you suggest.
It is quite natural for we Americans to believe and for a lot of our churches to believe that, especially the ones that thrived and grew after the founding of our country.
Despite some very good benefits that might come from Democracy, I think that we would be hard pressed to press this point too firmly – for NT times or for today.
The Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists and lots of other groups do not practice pure democracy where there is a one man – one vote policy.
In fact that is a very small minority position in both Christian history and Christian practice.
I submit that one may find very healthy congregations that practice a variety of polity alternatives.
I do believe that certain polity arrangements are more biblical than others, and that there are polity arrangements that are better at producing healthier congregations.
But one can find “nut houses” among any polity type, too.
Some of the worst I have seen are one man – one vote places. All the pastor has to do is get 50% + 1 person. And the most ignorant or evil person in the room gets the same say-so as wise, aged servant who has served the church for 40 years.
Pure democratic polity has been blamed in recent years for the destruction of lots of congregations who have abandoned years of tradition and ministry and music, changed bylaws abruptly etc. All it took was an aggressive pastor who campaigned and used the one man – one vote effectively to fire the staff, smash the organ, burn the hymnals, bring Hollywood into the church – and then changed the rules to ensure his unfettered control of the church.
But then, again, there are times when democracy helps. The SBC is democratice (but that is a group of churches), and that helped common grass roots people get control of their seminaries.
The Episcopalians I know would love some democracy right now, as they see their church leaving biblical standards, and there is nothing they can do.
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At one point in my life, I had to see an urologist for a medical condition. If I had to ask my husband for his permission before I could go potty, my hubby would have to clean up the mess!!!
Why do we have these ridiculous things in the church of Christ? Satan is having a field day with these comps, I am afraid.
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Just a little clarification….Eve wasn’t cursed. Only satan and the ground were cursed. Both she and Adam would experience “toil/sorrow.” Same Hebrew word for both, but translated “pain” for Eve. If interpreted that way, to be consistent, Adam must experience physical pain in his farming.
🙂
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Victorious: To be honest, I knew that Eve wasn’t cursed, nor Adam, I just couldn’t think of another way to put it at the time.
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Anne, I just wanted to toss that out there since it seems to be a “myth” that has followed women over the years.
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The CBMW site has been hacked, hence why it’s down. LOLOLOLOL!!!!
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Victorious: Yeah I know. 🙂 Thanks.
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two quick points:
An ectopic pregnancy never results in a living child and it will kill the mother as well unless surgically removed. So the choice is the loss of both or surgical removal and loss of the fetus.
When Paul wrote “I permit no woman . . ..”, it is clear that the first word in that quote was Paul speaking, and he was divinely inspired to use the personal pronoun for his human self. He explicitly did not say, “It is contrary to God’s will” or anything similarly indicating that it was the Holy Spirit that said “no woman”.
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Arce: Doug’s reasoning is that it is better for the mother to die than to ‘murder’ the unborn child. Self-sacrifice over sin, even if it is to no avail. Which sounds honourable on the outside, but when you apply it to ectopic pregnancies it turns into a horrible contempt for the lives of unfortunate women. Like you said, the baby is destined for death anyway. Making the mother die through lack of action is itself murder/manslaughter. Hence, Doug is advocating the murder of women with ectopic pregnancies.
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Doug Phillip’s advice about ectopic pregnancy is particularly barbaric given that the mother in question will surely leave behind a whole quiverfull of other kids.
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Scot McKnight’s latest Tweet: Yes, Call it what it is: Patriarchy.
Read the post he’s referencing here.
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American Evangelicals are not the only ones in crisis over issues of gender equality, the Catholic Church is also struggling with these issues. You can read about it here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/americans-rome-vatican-crackdown-nuns_n_1495871.html?ref=religion
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Kelly
This discipline thing is getting waaaaaay out of control. It was supposed to be used for really serious problems like a man sleeping with his mother in law and flaunting it. These little boys who play elder now think they are rulers over the flock. As one pastor said to a friend I am the dad, you are the child. He is no longer a member of daddy’s church and he took his money with him.
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Sophie & Anne, have you had any experience of this sort of teaching or of “Calvinista” influence generally in your churches in the UK? I’d be interested to hear about it.
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Joe, IMO there is no baby in the ‘complementarian bath water’ to throw out. I’ve been studying this issue for years but I was only 99.9 percent sure that the egalitarian doctrine was the right one because every now and then a tiny doubt would worm its way in through some clever patriarchalist dogma that would send me back to the scriptures to re-examine my interpretation. That was until last year when my daughter asked me where in the scriptures does God ever directly command the male to lead or to take authority over the woman. I still can’t find that for her. If I ever do, I might get a slight glimpse of a baby to worry about.
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True story: my husband made an edict limiting the # of toilet paper sheets we could use. Only two sheets allowed for pee! We have 5 daughters and he decided “we consume too much toilet paper”.
Also, you should read Evan Stark on “coercive control”. (I have a blog post with citation here)
My own marriage felt like a concentration camp! And comp doctrine enabled this. Once I dumped the belief that I must submit to him in EVERYTHING and started standing up for myself and the children, the hyper-controlling, micromanaging behavior stopped.
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Run of the Mil —
You said: I asked my wife the other day, Do you believe that you have voting power in our marriage? She replied, “Sometimes I feel like I have too much voting power.” I then told my wife, “Good, this is how it should be.”
I pose the question to all of these Calvinistas, Is your wife your partner or your servant? Do you use Bible verses to selfishly eliminate her influence in the partnership to which you purportedly have been called?”
I think the Calvinista would say that his wife is a partner and that you misunderstand complementarianism, to which you could say he misunderstands partnership. Piper obviously thinks that he’s so understood on comp doctrine that when things go wrong with it, that it’s because the person practicing it is somehow misunderstanding the application. He fails to see that his faulty fake fallacy is the catalyst that brings about such behaviors. There is much difference in application, as he mentions, because they have to make it up. It’s simply not in Scripture. I think John Piper has become a bumbling idiot, much like Pat Robertson.
John, your seat is awaiting. Please take it.
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New International Version (©1984)
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
New Living Translation (©2007)
As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
International Standard Version (©2008)
Indeed, just as the church is submissive to the Messiah, so wives must be submissive to their husbands in everything.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
As the church is under Christ’s authority, so wives are under their husbands’ authority in everything.
Bible in Basic English
And as the church is under Christ’s authority, so let wives be under the rule of their husbands in all things.
Weymouth New Testament
And just as the Church submits to Christ, so also married women should be entirely submissive to their husbands.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joe, what does “everything” mean to you?
Focus on the Family Boundless (written to disciple our young people) includes under EVERYTHING-
According to the article, Yes the husband DOES have the final say over all of these areas intimately affecting the wife.
Of course they would also give him final say over the bulleted points! After all “EVERYTHING” means “EVERYTHING”. :O
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Interesting post Dee. I think you have hit the nail on the head in a couple of different ways. As a recovering calvinista, recovering patriarchist, one who used to attend Bethlehem Baptist Church for several years, I believe I have some interesting experiential insight. A few things of note:
1) I regularly heard women read scripture in Church. This may have changed since I was there, but it was very common for women to read the Bible in Church. Of course the sermon text for the service was always read by a man or one of the apprentices/interns at the church.
2) I attended a conference hosted by Desiring God where Joni Erickson Tada was one of the speakers
3) Women did not teach any of the classes in the missionary training program or the intra church instructional sessions.
4) Women did not sit in the back of the church unless they wanted. Women regularly sat in the front. Often times Piper’s wife and daughter were up front.
5) Piper did NOT teach any of the following while I was there:
*Women must ask their husband’s permission to attend Bible study.
*Women must drop what they are doing and bring coffee to their husbands at work as soon as they are commanded.
*Women should not go to college.
*Daughters should stay at home with daddy until they are married and should tend to daddy’s needs.
*Women should not teach baptized boys.
6) Piper’s teaching was regularly misinterpreted/misapplied by both men and women in the church. There seems to be a general disposition within “inerrancy circles” that it is better to error by adding to God’s word than taking away from it. In other words, they would rather a woman not do something that is “gray” in their mind rather than do something that is “gray.”
7) Piper regularly called men to account and to love their wives with sacrificial service.
8) Piper often times pontificated much too far in unpacking of the roles. In other words, some of the discussion about what a woman should do was ridiculous, harmful, and unnecessary.
9) There were marriages that were healed, saved, restored through the complementarian position that Piper espoused.
10) There were marriages that were broken, lost, and ended as a result of trying to apply the complementarian position to marriage.
11) There were women who experienced a deep sense of gratitude as they heard the longing of their hearts expressed as a calling i.e. joyful submission to husbands.
12) There were women who were minimized, dismissed as feminist, and labeled as being in rebellion toward God because they were more of the Proverbs 31 type woman than a Titus 2 type woman.
13) There were men put in positions of leadership that should not have been and were extreme in their positions on manhood/womanhood.
14) There were women with teaching/preaching gifts who did not exercise these gifts and were not given an opportunity to do so.
15) There were men with teaching/preaching gifts who did not exercise these gifts and were not given an opportunity to do so.
16) There were many godly women who embraced a complementarian view.
17) There were many godly women who embraced an egalitarian view, but were made to feel uncomfortable.
Obviously, any of these things could have changed since I attended Bethlehem a long time ago. That being said, the above gives a sense of some of my experiences. One thing I have noticed over the years is that as Piper has sought to become more “mainstream” he has lost a lot of the focus of his initial ministry. From what I understand Piper used to hold to a position on justification that is more in line with a Roman Catholic position (i.e. Daniel Fuller’s position regarding the future aspect of justification) although I do not think he would admit that was his position. He would say he was misunderstood. That being said, from what I understand Justin Taylor used to be an apprentice at Bethlehem and while there “corrected” Piper’s understanding of justification to be more in line with the mainstream reformed folks i.e. Mohler, Sproull, etc…As Piper has focused more and more on blending in (from my viewpoint) with the Mohler’s and Moore’s he has assumed that they believe what he believes about men and women. Personally, I think Piper and Moore are world’s apart on the role of men and women. They agree in principle, but not in application. Plain and simple Mohler and Moore are Southern Baptist who live in a different world than most people. They live in the South which hasn’t changed much over the years. The South is obsessed with issues of patriarchy and control and it goes all the way back to slavery. Mohler and Moore view the world through patriarchal colored lenses and squelch women with their view points. Driscoll is in this camp as well as Mahaney. If I were to make a continuum of the views of men and women in the calvinista church it would look like this:
Mahaney—————-
Driscoll \
EXTREME—-Grudem——Piper]—-Roger Nicole & Wade Burhleson
Moore /
Mohler—————–
All that to say, I don’t necessarily think that Piper would agree with all of those who align themselves with him, but he doesn’t go against it. He would rather be in agreement with someone theologically than practically. It is an interesting dichotomy to say the least. Is it fair to put all the blame on Piper? I don’t think so due in large part to his general “cluelessness” to how people misapply and misinterpret what he says. He tries to get so creative with language that people can easily miss the point of what he is actually trying to say i.e. think Christian Hedonism…..a most unhelpful yet thought provoking term that many people have assumed they understand and run down a path of wrong application. Is it fair to put blame on Piper for not addressing the issues that stem from his view? I do think so, but not full blame. As Piper’s tenure of teaching comes to an end, I think that the best focus is to address the blatant disregard for women that Moore, Mohler, Mahaney, Driscoll have and let the falsehood be shown for what it is. That being said, the whole issue of abuse is one that needs to be addressed as well. There are way too many men out there using “submission” as a means of abuse in much the same way that people use “grace” as a means of abuse.
Sorry for the long drawn out post…just my fifty cents.
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Theoblog –
You should read the paper at the link that Sophie linked to at 11:26 am. It is interesting and makes some good points about CBMW’s views on abuse and what Piper claims is the purpose of marriage.
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Hi Kolya,
There’s a long answer and a short answer.
In short: Kind of but not much.
Long version:
I believe that, culturally, whatever starts in the USA ripples out to the wider Anglosphere and beyond to other nations, too. I think Christianity is no different in this regard. I don’t know if you’ve found that to be true or not in your experience, but it’s true of mine.
At the church I used to attend, all the books we were encouraged to read and the books that the pastors themselves read were written by evangelical American preachers and teachers: books by Joyce Meyer, ‘Under Cover’ by John Bevere, that weird book about ‘The Prayer of Jabez’*, stuff by people who present TV shows on the American Christian networks, etc etc.
We also read books like ‘The Fourth Dimension’by Yonggi Cho, pastor of the world’s biggest church in South Korea, apparently because the pastors were in awe (as pastors often are) of massive churches.
They weren’t Calvinista as such but I find it difficult to make the distinction between one weird authoritarian dogma and another. It’s all just the same oppression to me.
The closest we got, I think, to Calvinista teaching was ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye’ by SGM’s Joshua Harris. The church seriously considered implementing a courtship model for all the youth and students and singles, but after a trial period abandoned it. Personally I found the book offensive and was relieved not to have to ‘court’ my boyfriend.
Oh, and I visited a Free Church bookshop in Edinburgh not long ago and saw that nasty brick of a book by the CBMW stinking up its shelves.
However, even though I never really experienced Calvinista-ism, the church leadership imported a very close approximation of it from Colombia, originating at what was the fastest-growing church in the world, MCI Bogota. It put the same emphasis on ‘covering theology’ as the Calvinista set, and the idea that submission was the most important thing to God, more important than discernment and freedom.
So it wasn’t necessarily Calvinista teachings, and it wasn’t necessarily American. But it was always authoritarian. And it was always cherry-picked and inferred from the Bible, usually by people with no real credentials. It always gave me a weird queasy feeling and filled me with doubt, and then I felt guilty for doubting. And it always came from somewhere else far away, so we could hear the hype but not see the consequences.
I do believe that these men are already influencing – or should I say damaging – churches over here. Mark Driscoll has already visited and raised merry hell with his repulsive blowjob sermon. I think that for severak more years at least, the Calvinistas will grow in influence among the kinds of British evangelical, charismatic churches that are pastored by enthusiastic men who believe that zeal counts for a lot more than knowledge.
How about you, have you had much experience of this kind of thing?
*In case you don’t know that one, it’s a book about how we don’t receive the things we should rightfully get from God because we haven’t used the magic ‘Prayer of Jabez’ formula in asking. Or at least that’s how I interpreted it; maybe the author had a bigger point that I missed.
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Bridget 2,
Thanks for pointing that link out. I think the statement of critique is a helpful and nuanced perspective in a lot of ways. I don’t inherently see anything wrong in Piper’s statement:
“Marriage exists ultimately to display the covenant-keeping
love between Christ and his church…The highest meaning and the most ultimate purpose of marriage is to put the covenant relationship of Christ and his church on display. That is
why marriage exists.”
The problem though becomes when the relationship between Christ and the Church is narrowly defined as submission. This is what the majority of complementarians seem to do. They conflate covenant to mean submission. They focus very little on the husbands responsibility to love his wife as Christ loves the Church. They miss out on the amazing mystery of the “two becoming one flesh”. In other words, marriage is meant to show about the amazingly intimate relationship that God intends to have with his people, but Complementarians/Patriarchist narrowly define the mystery as submission and then furthermore narrowly define submission as only being the woman to the man; whereas if “submission” is really a part of the profound mystery it needs to be defined as Paul seems to define it and take the argument back to Ephesians 5:21.
Another interesting aspect of this whole conversation is the weight that the pastoral letters have in the whole discussion. The pastorals are actually questioned by several scholars as to whether or not they should even be included in the canon, but that opens another can of worms for another day:)
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Hi Sophie,
Thanks for your comments. I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
To be fair my church never went in for the sort of fringe stuff from the charismatic side, such as the “Prayer of Jabez” (which nobody seems to mention these days!) or Yonggi-Cho. Until about 10 years ago we were mainstream evangelical Anglican and tended to favour more the books put out by the Sydney diocese, while Evangelicals Now was a favoured newspaper.
However the most recent incumbent has been clearly influenced (in my opinion) by the CBMW/Calvinista crowd. We also had Harris’ dating book on the shelves (espoused by both the minister and his curate), segregation was apparently introduced for the teenagers and even the 20-30 group (at least for Bible studies), and then the age of the 20-30s group was dropped to a max of 25, after which singles had to join housegroups. A lot more staff were employed, particularly “apprentices” (though I think these had to fund themselves) – most of the apprentices were younger men and women, mainly men, who were there for a year or two to see if they had a taste/fit for ministry. Some books by the Mahaneys were carried on the bookshelf, and the minister paid a visit to the US to visit (I believe) one of the SGM churches. Our church also became part of a “gospel partnership”, which again I believe (correct me if I’m wrong here, Dee/Debs) is a key SGM concept.
In all fairness I must add that the sermons themselves are not wacky (except occasionally when gender issues come up, which may have been more to a past curate than the current incumbent), that Driscoll does not seem to get a mention, and no attempt has been made to force certain interpretations, for example young-earth creationism. The minister himself is not a bad man per se.
Come on Anne, your turn!….
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I think dee and theoblogue make interesting points about Piper’s teaching being misapplied. I agree that most of the blame should be on Piper, because of his “cluelessness,” as theoblogue says, concerning misapplication and misinterpretation. (And the cluelessness of others who agree with him on the issue.)
Mahaney (and the AOR report) put the onus on “the pastors” when his teaching on the Doctrine of Sin was misapplied. No, Mahaney, and, I think, Piper, are inexcusably sloppy about certain things they teach and preach, and seem to be rather indifferent as to the effects of their teaching.
If Piper and others can’t (or won’t) be clear about what they mean by complementarianism, then they should admit that the emperor has no clothes. They won’t, but we can see for ourselves.
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I do not accept that “everything” means “everything”. I don’t care that “it’s in the Bible”. “It’s in the Bible” is just another way of demanding that everyone accept that all verses exist in a vacuum.
But it’s in there, Argo. Everything…in plain English (oh, the irony…only after thousands of years did e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. actually exist in the Bible…but, it’s infallible you know. Perfect. Well, now that we have an ESV it is.)
Eeeeeeevrything. Think about that for a minute. Everything. Now, do you really mean that you believe EVERYTHING? And if you think about it and you say, well, no I don’t think she should submit to her husband when he demands that she vote for who she tells her to vote for, or demands that she service him four times a day, or ANY exception, then you’ve compromised your premise. And when you’ve done that, how do you really define everything since you’ve already admitted that it doesn’t really mean everything? You look at the Bible. You study it. You ask yourself who Paul was speaking to, in what context, in what cultural understanding, and you go from there.
See, when you remove these versus from context and culture, when you proof text your scriptures and demand the impossible from them, namely, that they exist in a vacuum, then I submit that submission very quickly becomes slavery. Yes…yes it does. Tell me how “submission” as defined by “EVERYTHING” as a word existing in a vacuum does NOT violate the second greatest commandment by its very definition? Tell me how you can treat your neighbor as yourself while claiming ownership over the entirety of that person’s very mind and will?
Or does “neighbor” not include wives?
Hmm…
To the “everything means everything” crowd…you don’t know what you are saying. If you thought this through, you would be troubled by what you see.
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Theoblogue –
Regarding Piper’s statement: Is that the reason why God created the man and the women? Is that the directive God gave Adam and Eve? Or, is it the only purpose for the man and woman? How could Adam and Eve display the covenant relationship that Christ has with his Church when Christ had not yet come to earth to initiate the Church age?
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Hi Bridget2,
Good point. I personally do not think your points and Piper’s are mutually exclusive. Piper seems to be discussing the ultimate purpose of marriage. Keep in mind Piper is influenced by the language of the 18th century philosopher/preacher Jonathan Edwards who distinguishes between “ultimate” and “penultimate” goals. In other words, Piper is not saying (in my understanding) that this is the ONLY reason for marriage or only purpose for woman and man, just that it is ultimate.
In regards to your last question I can merely pontificate and give you my opinion which may or may not be helpful:) After all I am not inerrant:) With that being said I think that Adam and Eve are “types” of what was to come with Christ and the Church. The OT offers allusions and types of things that are fulfilled ultimately in Christ.
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When a man requests anything that violates the conscience of his wife, of any sort, or when he demands an ownership of her mind…including a final say with regard to her dreams, her aspirations, her thoughts, her will, her goals, the work of her hands that is not necessarily included as mutual by virtue of the marriage covenant (and that means not “allowing” her to do this or that, whatever it is) that is in violation of the second greatest commandment. The “submission doctrine” is not applicable because a greater doctrine, if you will, the right of individuals to be free in Christ, is in violation.
People, this is not what submit means, because submit becomes “obey”. The Bible commands children to “obey” parents, but that word is not used with wives. Submit is the word.
So what does it mean “submit”. Well, broadly, I believe it is tethered to the command to respect the husband. My opinion is that this means that the wife will actively pursue the husband’s input, not pursue things outside of his knowledge, and will strive to incorporate his will into hers in as much as wisdom and love dictates without violating her conscience or forfeiting her right to self will and freedom as an individual child of God.
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Argo –
I agree completely with your last paragraph. There is instruction in scripture regarding not requiring a person to go against their conscience. I believe that includes the husband and wife relationship. A woman should respect her husband by including him in her thoughts and intentions not going behind his back or doing things in secret to undermine him. She should be open and willing to work through differences. She is not to be mindless follower. She is so to bring scripture to bear in her husband’s and her own life. This would undoubtedly include instruction going both ways. That puts a hole in the “women are not to instruct men” (eye roll).
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I’ll stop after this:
See, we all like nice, neat little boxes. Black and white. We hate equivocating. We love doctrine with hospital corners. We hate muddled theologies. We gravitate towards men who order the chaos; who don’t mince words. That’s why I loved SGM. Here were men who laid it down!
Not to make a (direct) comparison, but this is what makes so many dictators so popular, despite the fact that his country might cultivate starvation like central America cultivates coffee beans. These men say what’s what; right wrong, without a doubt. And we LOVE this; even to our own detriments.
The neo-Reformed pastors (elders? I’m confused) preach the Windex of “orthodoxy” which wipes the windows of our Bibles clear as crystal. “Inerrant” is a way of saying “this is REALLY what this means”…see, take this little verse here, put it on a paper towel and “voila!” no more smudges! It’s as simple as “everything means everything”! See…spic and span; we have instant perfection in our lives. And if we don’t, well, this proves the Bible is infallible because, after all, we are totally depraved. It’s in the Bible.
The only problem is, that’s just NOT what the Bible does for us. The Bible is messy. Full of theological contradictions “lying is a sin, but not when Rehab did it, or when David pretended to be insane”; “working on the Sabbath is a sin, but not when the Savior’s disciples are hungry and need to pick grain or when Jesus heals a man’s hand”. It is full of wandering, and difficult, paradoxical axioms (choice and predestination existing in tension). And when you think in those terms you can really see just how amazing and wonderful our religion really is! There really is a reflection of humanity in the Word; a sense that God TRULY understands what it is like to be US. We don’t get bogged down in legalism and fear of condemnation because we know that God does not come around and plop quarters on the bedspreads of our “doctrine” to see if they bounce. We understand that women and men are free to pursue their God given desires and dreams and lives in great individual fulfillment because we understand that “everything” CANNOT mean “everything” and that one John Piper wailing about “submitting to abuse for a season” is not really “sound doctrine” after all, and that God has given us greater commandments by which to measure their proof texts and systematic theologies.
If the Lord has set you FREE (you, wife, mother, daughter), you are free indeed!
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Why is there a common problem with these teachers that when negative affects of their teaching is discussed, that it’s because their teachings have been misunderstood or misapplied? Seriously? So sooo many people can sit under each of these men’s teachings Sunday after Sunday, and a verifiable recognizable culture becomes present that one can identify, and it’s the members who are misunderstanding the teacher… who teaches them almost every Sunday… on the same topics round and round again… For real? Really? I think not.
These behaviors, relationship patterns, church cultures can be found VERY common amongst these Calvinista church groups. If these men are being misunderstood and their teachings misapplied that darn often, then they need to step down off the pulpit because they suck at communication. I’m sorry, but i cant buy this one. It’s playing apologetics for these men with whom Scripture from the very book they teach from says they will be held responsible for what THEY teach. And if people regularly and consistently glean the same application and understanding from such teachings, then it is logical to concede that the teaching was understood as it was intended.
Piper needs to sit his ass down and stop trying to explain over, and over and Over again what marriage should be like and what men and women should be doing. The Bible is freakin’ HUGE and this dude is wearing OUT the texts pertaining to marriage and family. He needs to come off of it and preach about something else. So tired of him. What a loser.
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“Why is there a common problem with these teachers that when negative affects of their teaching is discussed, that it’s because their teachings have been misunderstood or misapplied? Seriously? So sooo many people can sit under each of these men’s teachings Sunday after Sunday, and a verifiable recognizable culture becomes present that one can identify, and it’s the members who are misunderstanding the teacher… who teaches them almost every Sunday… on the same topics round and round again… For real? Really? I think not.”
Exactly! And I point out all the time who they make their living as public communicators. I guess one needs the special decoder ring.
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Argo,
Thanks. You have encouraged me today.
I did find a different way around “EVERYTHING”- posted here: The Elephant in the Egalitarian Room “wives submit in everything” Ephesians 5:24
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Reformed Baptists are so constipated with legalism I’m surprised the men can use the bathroom, never mind allowing the women to.
Reformed Baptists have always disallowed women in the pulpit for any reason, except to clean it. None of this is new. It’s practice that has filtered down through the years from teaching coming out of Montville, N.J. Challies didn’t invent this. I saw it in the Reformed Baptist churches thirty years ago.
Women were not allowed to even read the announcements. And the announcements were read just before the “real” service began so as not to sin by breaking the reformed golden cow, The Regulative Principle. Women were also only supposed to be educated in vocations that could be used at home.
Reformed Baptists IMHO are an angry bunch whose new generation has become angrier and lost focus.
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What do you do with Abigail in 1 Sam 25?
Nowadays I pay for medical and dental care for the children without including him in my “thoughts and intentions”. I do inform him after the fact. We have plenty of money but he objects to “wasting” it on healthcare (while he has spent as much as $4K on a “toy” for himself without including me in his “thoughts and intentions”)
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Charis,
I feel for your situation. You are doing the right thing in taking care of your kids health. Out of curiousity, is your spouse a self proclaimed complementarian?
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Charis,
You are welcome! And thank you for your kind comment! 🙂
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Bridget,
My wife instructs me all the time (I call it taking advantage of her wisdom; I guess Driscoll takes it as me being a big sissy…but, er, I don’t own a Mickey Mouse shirt…my daughter does, though, in pink). But then, I’m the guy that does not accept the premise that the Bible is “infallible” as the Calvinista’s define it (infallible, meaning, interpreted through the narrow, medieval, western European, theological lens of Calvinism), so I just shrug and realize that I’m a heretic all over the place, apparently.
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Oh…sorry, her shirt is Minnie Mouse. So, Driscoll is safe because:
Male cartoon mouse with hiked up red shorts = manly, studly, UFC, turn the tables over Christian.
Female cartoon mouse = girly, sissy, gay-Jesus Christian.
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It is quite natural for we Americans to believe and for a lot of our churches to believe that, especially the ones that thrived and grew after the founding of our country.
Despite some very good benefits that might come from Democracy, I think that we would be hard pressed to press this point too firmly – for NT times or for today.”
It actually works real well when believers are led by the Holy Spirit and seek spiritual unity instead of following a few humans with titles. What you describe sounds more like European state religion. Let’s go back further to the 1st Century when elders were to be the spritually mature. But even then, not every church in the NT had them.
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Argo – Comment of the day! (Your most recent on the various “looks.”)
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@ René & Deb
I will get on it, but you’ll have to bear with me, as I’m holed up in a Florida hotel that is apparently within the Bermuda Triangle of Internet Connectivity™.
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“But then, I’m the guy that does not accept the premise that the Bible is “infallible” as the Calvinista’s define it (infallible, meaning, interpreted through the narrow, medieval, western European, theological lens of Calvinism), so I just shrug and realize that I’m a heretic all over the place, apparently.”
Argo, Just be glad you are in the old USA and there are no church/state magistrates or burnings at the stake!
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theoblogue,
My husband is an evangelical christian of >30 years, seminary grad, former missionary, former christian college prof… and I am not sure if he is even aware of the word “complementarian”? Although he has turned up to max volume so that I will hear when John MacArthur on the radio or John Hagee on TV preach wife submission.
He knows his scripture! And in some ways he is an emotionally arrested child in an 50-something adult male body who is not above using scriptures to get his own way. Unfortunately I was a formerly gullible and easily deceived consumer of the books and radio programs pushing wife submission, so his Bible thumping tactics used to be an effective tool. Not anymore.
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Theoblogue,
I have enjoyed your insights much. About 10 years ago my niece and her husband graduated from Wheaton and went directly to intern with Piper and attend the school there. They came back different people. All of a sudden their long time believing family, including pastor grandpa’s and music minister grandma’s were not really saved and did not know the true Gospel. We were too patriotic, too, because we had a 4th of July party which was USA idolatry.
My niece became one of those women (she was well educated at my brother’s expense) who was not to work outside the home but only support her husband’s work. (Too bad because they were broke and my brother and his corporate atty wife were done footing the bill since she refused to work after they laid out about 100,000 for her education).
Let’s just say that to us, strong believers in the Holy Priesthood and soul competency, it was like they had been brainwashed by a cult. Piper and Calvin were spoken of in terms that bordered on idolatry. It was scary. They are now on mission field and expecting baby number 5.
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Charis –
It has everything to do with your conscience before God. It’s the same for, say, drinking. I might feel free to have a drink of alcohol where another might not feel free according to scripture. I don’t consider one right and one wrong. If I had someone to my home who was stongly opposed then I would not have a drink out of deference to their conscience and not wanting to cause one to stumble.
I didn’t look up the scripture you referenced because it does not matter in my answer. The Pharisees were on Jesus about “working” on the Sabbath because it was breaking the “law” according to them. Jesus response to them was (in modern language) “Hey, dudes, don’t you all feed and water your animals? Why wouldn’t I care for my peeps made in the image of God then?” It’s almost like saying “use some logic, not the letter of the law.”
If “your” conscience is clear before God about caring for your children (I think mine would be in your circumstances) then do it. What I was referring to in my comment was women who might do things with selfish reasons without their husband’s knowledge. Afterall, women are just as capable of sinful motives as men. Your intent seems to be to counteract someone elses self-centeredness to the detriment of the “least of these.”
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According to Anon1, Piper taught “3. If a woman has a job with male direct reports, she should only offer “suggestions” but never give orders because it is not natural for a woman to have any authority over a man.” I did not know Piper taught this.
Wow, I was a manager, I almost fired a male employee for his insubordination. I put him on a 3-month probation, he shaped up, so, he kept his job. That’s how corporate America operates, I know my power and authority of a manager who is responsible for the entire department.
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Thanks to René for the news tip:
Now, going to the bathroom without your husband’s permission will be even less stressful thanks to John Piper’s new Complementarian, Christian Hedonist bathroom tissue
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Eagle, the frog in the kettle is an apt analogy.
Bridget2, Abigail defied her husband Nabal and saved her household from destruction by David. She doesn’t fit very nicely into the comp female mold.
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Sergius, That is hysterical! Love your site!!!
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“According to Anon1, Piper taught “3. If a woman has a job with male direct reports, she should only offer “suggestions” but never give orders because it is not natural for a woman to have any authority over a man.” I did not know Piper taught this.”
Kelly, I would link to it but it is in one of those long treatises on CBMW where Piper is quoted and it was a while back I read it. I cannot even remember the name of it. But he did teach it and say that women having authority over men even in the secular world is not natural. It is not part of the created order of how things should work. He does not go as far as say it is sin but the implication is there is you do not “do it right”.
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Seregius,
LOL
“Hedonist”? Does that mean I get to use as many sections as I want?
It’s been a refreshment visiting with y’all. G’nite.
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We have all been redeemed, if we have accepted the gift of grace, and we are all then adopted as siblings of Christ. According to Hebrews, we are all priests (yes, women too). I find no basis for women being second class citizens in the kingdom of our Lord and Savior. BTW, the word we translate as submit is not as strong as many preachers seem to say. After all, if we are all to be in submission to one another (as 5:21 says), then clearly it is not a one way street, but rather some form of mutual agreement and sharing. Perhaps that next verse means that women should be careful about submitting to anyone but their own husband and not to be too submissive to some other man or some other woman’s husband!!!! But the previous verse clearly speaks to mutuality.
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I just got done reading all of today’s posts. What a great conversation!
Good night, Charis. 🙂
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It’s demeaning and degrading to an adult human being to have other adult humans think they have the right to sit around and debate what she can and cannot do. So some men are going to be “unwise” in how much they restrict a group of adult human beings? Piper says “we” (meaning male church leaders) are probably going to make different judgments about what women can and can’t do. Apparently he can’t see that the fact that he thinks men have the inherent right to make these judgments for their fellow adult human beings, is the real problem. How would he like it if another group of humans sat around and decided what Piper was to be restricted from doing?
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@Pam- I appreciate you sharing the extreme things that have been said to you. Sorry to hear that they were spoken.
@Bridget2- Appreciate you sharing your experience. By her own posts I think it’s clear Dee hates this doctrine (not people) & she has not defended against this point, so I think it’s valid. Contrary to what Dee says I am not at a comp church.
@Hester- Thanks for letting me into the extreme bubble world you have lived in. Sad to hear that these statements are common.
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Charis –
Neither did Rebekah!
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Sergius Martin-George, you just made my week! “Desiring Softness”. HA!
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Kristen wrote: “How would he like it if another group of humans sat around and decided what Piper was to be restricted from doing?”
He might not like it, but I’ll bet there would be plenty of eager volunteers for that committee. 🙂
Good points, Kristen.
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Dee-
You still assume often. I am not at a comp church. My purpose in commenting is to have a discussion and share the other side of the story, which I have done countless times. I do not think my behavior constitutes the troll accusation you & Deb labeled me in the past. If I am off topic tell me. You decide & bring up the topics, I just add to the conversation.
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@HeadlessUnicornGuy- Would you prefer I apologize for being a Christian? FYI, don’t believe everything Dee assumes. I am not at a comp church.
@JJ- You are assuming I only can learn from my own experience as a male. You are dead wrong! I am not at a comp church.
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@Dana- That’s a valid comment on abuse that I appreciate you sharing with me. I will look up “symbolic traditionalism pragmatic egalitarianism” as you suggested. Never heard of that before.
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@Anon 1- Care to reference the things you are attributing to Piper more specifically than CBMW? I have read some of what Piper says on the subject and not seen your examples before.
@Patti- If you are 99.9% sure of your view there is not much myself or anyone else can do for you. 🙂 If you want to hear another perspective seek out those with differing views. Keep reading the Bible.
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@Charis- If someone is using Focus on the Family as a resource, there is not much I can do to help them out. 🙂 My point is “regular” non-extreme complementarianism does not hold to bullet-ed points or all the crazy things being shared here. I’m sorry to hear the crazy things some people are saying and throwing around as Biblical roles of a husband. I am saddened to hear that your husband seems to have gone off the deep end with his twisted view of the Bible and complementarianism. I will be praying for you and those who have had to endure those type of men.
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Charis-
I know this is a very personal question, so feel free to ignore it.
I’m wondering why you would continue in a marriage where the one partner (your husband) is so immature and disregarding of the other?
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Charis, I just want to say – go you.
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@Joe
You said: ‘You are assuming I only can learn from my own experience as a male. You are dead wrong! I am not at a comp church.’
I’m very happy to hear that you’re not at a comp church. But I wasn’t assuming that you could only learn from your experience as a male. However, I believe that many men who are sympathetic to complementarianism will not have experienced its consequences because, as men, they’ve never had to bear the brunt of its ultimately demeaning implications. Not only will they not have experienced its consequences, they are often blind to its effect on women because their own position is secure.
But if, like you say, you are open to learning from others’ experiences, I’d gently urge you to consider the fact that what you view as exceptions to complementarianism are actually quite representative of this teaching and its outworking.
The many examples of hurt and abuse cited here at TWW show how very destructive this doctrine is. These experiences are not marginal cases, and they aren’t distorted versions of complementarianism: they are what happens when the doctrine is carried to its logical conclusion.
I – and I think many others who comment here – believe that leaders like Piper have built an elaborate theology around their self-created term ‘complementarianism’ which is not biblical, yet they teach their interpretation and standards as if they ARE biblical. Where are all these clauses and sub-clauses of behaviour to be found in the scriptures? (Uh, that’s mostly a rhetorical question…don’t want to get into a game of Deuling Prooftexts – it’s like Dueling Banjos, but sometimes more disturbing than Deliverance.)
The fact that many professing complementarians have practically egalitarian marriages and relationships can hide how harmful complementarianism is, by its very nature. The mild facade of complementarianism is bolstered by those who actually don’t follow through with its full implications.
You said to Anon 1, ‘Care to reference the things you are attributing to Piper more specifically than CBMW? I have read some of what Piper says on the subject and not seen your examples before.’ I’m sure Anon 1 might respond specifically, but in the meantime here are some references for the examples Anon 1 cited.
1.‘Women should not give directions to men in a way that might look like they are “instructing” them.’
From page 42 in Piper and Grudem’s Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood:
‘For example, a housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway. At that point she is giving a kind of leadership. She has superior knowledge that the man needs and he submits himself to her guidance. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised.’
2. ‘Women should take “abuse for a season”.’
Here’s a video of Piper talking about a woman’s response to abuse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OkUPc2NLrM
To quote from Piper at 2:33: ‘Now that’s one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.’
3. ‘If a woman has a job with male direct reports, she should only offer “suggestions” but never give orders because it is not natural for a woman to have any authority over a man.’
The following quotations don’t address this specifically, but they relate to this theme.
Page 42 of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: ‘Her demeanor-the tone and style and disposition and discourse of her ranking position-can signal clearly her affirmation of the unique role that men should play in relationship to women owing to their sense of responsibility to protect and lead.’
‘When you combine these two continuums, what emerges is this: If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will, in general, need it to be non-personal. The God-given sense of responsibility for leadership in a mature man will not generally allow him to flourish long under personal, directive leadership of a female superior.’
Page 41 ‘One or more of these roles [a list of occupations] might stretch appropriate expressions of femininity beyond the breaking point. But in any case, regardless of the relationships in which a woman finds herself, mature femininity will seek to express itself in appropriate ways. There are ways for a woman to interact even with a male subordinate that signal to him and others her endorsement of his mature manhood in relationship to her as a woman.’
Joe, I’m glad that you want to join this discussion. But please try to see that these many, many examples aren’t the straw men we’re creating or citing to boost our agenda, but rather that they are complementarianism, fully manifested.
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Sergius,
Loved the Desiring Softness TP! It adds the ‘perfect touch’ to this post.
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Kristen
These men believe they are given the keys of authority to decide what flies in the church. 9 Marks pushes this and the Calvinistas love it. They will make decisions for those who let them.
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Joe
I hate any doctrine that is invented for the sole purpose to “prove” that some groups are of lesser value. Why do you think it was suddenly discovered that women submit to men throughout eternity? Look at when this nonsense started and figure out the confluence of “new” doctrine and gullible and easily deceived women. Coincidence?
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Sergius
You are an awesome writer. Anyone who can make me laugh goes to the top of my favorite people list!
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Joe
I did not call you a troll. You may discuss what you wish. But I also get to make some “observations.” I believe that this blog is far more open than most Christian blogs out there in our comments policy.
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Joe
If you want people to believe that you are not at a comp church, perhaps you need to change how you communicate your beliefs. This is a blog. I don’t know you. For all I know, you could be CJ Mahaney’s assistant or a 90 year old grandmother in Peoria having a bit of fun. We can only go on what you write.
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I have been reading these posts and thanking the
Lord for the internet- it has provided a voice for the
hurting. In turn, however, we must not let it turn to
bitterness but turn it to showing others who Christ
really is and how much He truely loves women and what
he has created in women. When we really recognize
who we are in Christ both men and women, we see the
ridiculous control and money issues that many in the religious
leadership have. It is all about control, fame, or money-
these are the root problems and they are across the board-
ranging from SBC to Word of Faith. I hear all the stupid
terminology that Piper and others sanctimoniously
try to make themselves look bigger then they really
are when they use toilet paper like everyone else, even
if it might be the “Christian hedonistic” brand. When will
we as Christian brothers and sisters start just living
by the Holy Spirit (who truely knows how to change
hearts and minds for Christ and His glory)? When will
we start seeing as Christians we have been redeemed
and start living in Christian freedom, not bondage.
Nowhere in Scripture does it promote these issues of
control over women. In fact, a good place to read the
opposite is Hosea- where God commanded Hosea to take
back his prostituting wife as an example of how God would
take back prostituting Israel. We do not begin to
understand the depths of Gods love until we ourselves
begin to relinquish control to the Holy Spirit and His
work. God bless Deb and Dee for your dedication
in bringing out the voice of the abused.
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Dee-
dee on Wed, May 09 2012 at 08:32 am
“Kristen
These men believe they are given the keys of authority to decide what flies in the church. 9 Marks pushes this and the Calvinistas love it. They will make decisions for those who let them.”
Don’t mean to change the topic but a distraction for a minute. Your comment reminded me of this-
http://theresurgence.com/2011/05/02/10-tips-for-your-mothers-day-service
I am all for honoring moms, although I don’t think the Sunday service needs to be controlled by Mother’s Day. I feel badly for the women who will not go to church that day because they know the service will honor moms and most likely the sermon will be about a “biblical” mother and they feel left out…either having lost their moms, or by not being a mom, or by having an abusive mom…being estranged from their moms-whatever the reasons may be.
Some of these suggestion are bizarre–(keep the music happy and upbeat–dedicate a lot of babies ’cause people like to see babies on Mother’s Day). I wonder who is controlling this day–the “youngers” (elders) or the Holy Spirit when they advise to, “5.Keep the sermon short—there are tons of brunches and events.”
I am glad they at least gave an honorable mention to those who may be suffering on Mother’s Day by saying they are welcome to come for prayer after the service. But what with all the gifts and free books they recommend giving out to the moms– it just seems unnecessary damage is done.
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@Charis
I think that would be more like “Christian Depletionism.” I’m sure someone somewhere is working on a manuscript.
@René
You know you get a writing credit on this one, right?
@Deb & Dee
Thanks for the encouragement!
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Dee: LOL regarding that link to “tips for pastors” for Mother’s Day by Driscoll. Sounds more like tips to Cub Scouts. His number one tip may cause him to run afoul of the Calvinist/Reformed/Covenantal crowd.
“Here are some thoughts on your Mother’s Day service:
1. Have a woman lead or help lead worship.
2. Dress nice; say it’s to honor Mother’s Day…”
Dress nice?
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Diane –
What caught my eye when I went to that link was the picture of MD to the right that said “LEADERSHIP COACHING with Pastor Mark.” (Gasp!)
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In order to honor mother’s day, Driscoll will wear a Minnie Mouse t-shirt.
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Eagle,
Ha! Funny. I’m saying the Calvinistas are bound up like mummies in their man-made rules and applications. They have all their doctrines ironed out. Soooo what’s left for this generation to make a mark? Legalism – while the gospel gets left behind. You can attend a reformed Bapt. church for months and not hear a sermon on Christ and the Gospel.
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Irish, what do you primarily hear about in a reformed baptist church? Is there any mention of Christ crucified for your sins? Or is it a vague you may or may not be saved?
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Anon
Yes, dress just like Mark. Minnie Mouse T shirt and pukka shell necklace.
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Bridget2
Followed by Leadership Cage Fighting and leadership Micro Brewing.
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Irish
Some of these churches tend to focus on the Cross-not the Cross with Christ risen but Christ on the Cross, chronically miffed off that He had to do this for you.
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Mark’s necklaces puts mine to shame.
Well Bridget2, I saw that too. I suppose he feels he is a leadership guru, even to the point of coaching the other Mars Hill pastors (and any other pastors) on how a Mother’s Day Sunday service should go down. Because, he knows what’s best.
Keep it short with happy music—gotta get to those brunches.
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a cartoon – enjoy!
http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/1081/
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Robin,
Occasionally you’ll hear of Christ’s sacrifice. But generally the focus is on one’s own sin. Navel-gazing. “Oh, I am such a bad sinful wretch….” So. What about Christ and what He did? No. They get stuck at wretched selves.
Preachers will go through a man-made laundry list of do’s and don’ts yelling and shouting and giving the eagle eye to members no less to make sure your election is sure. Which is ironic since we are not supposed to have control over that anyway. Or they will exegete an obscure OT text reminding you how bad you are and that you better pull up your socks. They really lack assurance of salvation, again, ironic given what they say they believe.
I sat in a ref. bapt. service wherein all of us present were members and afaik, genuine Christians. The preacher was yelling, “maybe your are not a Christian, maybe the person beside you isn’t.” I looked around and thought, “really, who the heck is he talking about?”
Calvinists love to beat up and get beaten up over their sin. Some are more overt than others.
Dee,
“Chronically miffed off” is an understatement. There really is no patience or grace. They want perfection and they want it now, darn it. And haven’t we done you a big favour by sacrificing our time and talents to lead you stupid sheep? I’ve heard this actually said. The condescension is astounding.
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Numo –
Loved the cartoon! They might have to do more than pray for me though. They might need to perform an exorcism to get the thinking out of my head.
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We had a baptist preacher once tell us in a sermon it was his job to listen to God, and ours to shut up and listen to him.
Boy did I beat feet!
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RE: Argo @ Tue 8may 07:52 – 08:44 pm:
Excellent comment! One of the best on the topic of Scripture I’ve read in a long while. Permit me to add an illustration. Much of what you’ve lamented in the way of Biblical interpretation is barely 40 years old, and in my opinion; it is the product of resurgent fundamentalism.
When I was kid growing up in the Southeast corner of Wisconsin, I was impressed and moved by the architecture of a Synagogue in my town. It was a symphony in quarried granite and hardwood.
Each stone, from the elliptical archways to the beautiful cornices was cut and fitted with precision by skilled craftsmen who were the best in their trade. No such magnificence is possible when all the stones are cut to the same size, shape and weight. The end result would be a Lego monstrosity.
And so it is with the Bible. Lego monstrosity or work of art belonging to the ages. I prefer the latter.
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linda said,
“We had a baptist preacher once tell us in a sermon it was his job to listen to God, and ours to shut up and listen to him.”
Excellent move!
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I have noticed the heavy emphasis on sin at our place too. Now I know in the UK’s hedonistic culture a sense of sin appears to be totally lacking the general population. However the problem I have is that the Calvinistas aim their “sinful wretches” thing at people who have been Christians for years. It doesn’t hurt to be reminded of one’s sin – the Book of Common Prayer does that – but methinks they protest too much sometimes. (Well, often if I’m honest).
Painfully, someone who was very close to me was driven away from the church by being made to feel, as she saw it, perpetually rotten.
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They might have to do more than pray for me though. They might need to perform an exorcism to get the thinking out of my head.
LOLZ – though what makes your comment funny is that it’s all too true. I’m sure some of my pals from That Church (and others) would think I’m one of “the lost” if they were to see some of my comments here. 😉
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True story: my husband made an edict limiting the # of toilet paper sheets we could use. Only two sheets allowed for pee! We have 5 daughters and he decided “we consume too much toilet paper”.
I believe you Charis. I have a friend whose ex husband(notice ex-husband) did this, and when she learned the same thing you did and stood up to him, he became worse, eventually tearing the phones out of the wall when she tried calling for help.
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For those who don’t believe that this “extreme” version of complementarianism exists, you need to meet my cousin C and his wife K. K does have a car but she doesn’t have a key to their house. She doesn’t have a need to leave the house without her husband anyways (he works from home). The car will probably be sold very soon. The husband, C, decided when his wife was pregnant that midwives and doctors and hospitals were too expensive and he knew everything about giving birth. He insisted that she give birth at home alone with just his superior knowledge. Well, mr. genius and K ended up at the hospital with complications following the birth of their son. When C and K need to leave the house for any reason, they leave when he is ready, even if it means they will be late. Oh, C and K are in their mid-20s. Sounds like complementarianism at its best (or worst).
Then you have C’s opposite, my former neighbor Roger. Roger was a college professor and known as a “giant” on campus for his gentle demeanor. He was a leader not because he asserted his power as a man but because he chose to love all who entered his life. He and his wife were complete equals in life and because of this, she is now equipped to handle all of the details after his passing. At Roger’s funeral, the two words that I heard over and over to describe him were “gentle” and “love”.
I’d rather live in a world full of men like Roger than one with men like my cousin C.
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I think women need to recognize what’s traditionally called “red flags” while they’re dating. There are no guarantees, unfortunately, because an abuser will only let you see what he wants you to see during this time. They are very charismatic and well-versed in knowing how to win a woman’s heart.
They often gravitate to women who have low self-esteem.
How very sad for your cousin, anonymous. Please provide her with some support and if possible at an opportune (and safe) time, with the hotline number for your local domestic abuse center.
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Long and complicated story….
but I was pretty much in the hard comp fog until 22 years into the marriage and by then, we had a quiver full of 8 children.
The Lord used Luke 1:17 to lay on my heart that the children’s well being comes first and they are better off with my husband and I together (for numerous reasons I won’t get into…).
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Debbie, My husband escalated too when I started standing up to him. Fortunately (or providentially, I should say) we were involved in mandated counseling for a missionary job he wanted at the time… which put his nuts in a vice grip (so to speak 🙂 ). After one fiasco attempting to call the pastor regarding DV, I would now call the police and the counselor was a mandated reporter and would call CPS if indicated.
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At the reformed baptist church that finally put me off institutional church FOREVER – a deacon (male of course)was telling me that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and therefore we could never trust ourselves to do anything pleasing to God etc etc….. (worm theology!).
With the intention of encouraging him, I said that in Christ we have new hearts in which the Holy Spirit dwells and He inclines us towards God… and we are always completely and unconditionally loved and accepted (warts and all!) because of Christ crucified and risen from the dead.
His response? I was showing a lack of understanding of the doctrine of sanctification and he reported me to the elders for “criticizing” him!
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RE: Argo on Tue, May 08 2012 at 09:33 pm:
You’re in good company, I’m now considered heretic in most evangelical circles on account of my views. Just because it’s medieval orthodoxy, doesn’t mean it’s true.
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Charis-
I’m so sorry for your situation…I really hope for the best for you and your children.
Thanks for your response to my question…you are a brave woman, in my eyes.
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Kolya – segregation? Oh my word. What an awful thing to do to people in their twenties!
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…oh, I also want to add that the pastor of my church was a really decent guy with the best of intentions and a lot of humility.
Pingback: Is Not the Whole More Than the Sum of the Parts? « Thinking Out Loud
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MM – Wow, that’s quite a response you got. It seems like that deacon wasn’t familiar with Jeremiah 31, the entire book of Hebrews, and so so many other parts of the Bible. How do these ‘reformed’ preachers understand “For I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more” then? It’s not like there are any complicated words there.
And Charis, prayers for your situation. You sound like a strong woman. I hope you’re able to ensure your kids don’t fall for these destructive ideas.
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Pam – Yes and sadly it wasn’t atypical. These men didn’t know their bibles. They knew a few proof texts and had been spoon-fed their doctrine by the pastor. They were also used to their women keeping quiet and making them feel like heroes of the faith!
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Ok, which one of you bums, forgot ta put da seat down?
(grin)
S㋡py
___
Comic relief: Simon’s Cat in ‘Sticky Tape’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV3SWjrt2rE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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MM
They need that doctrine of sin to keep people like us in line. That is why they are miffed off at the bloggers.
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dee on Wed, Apr 04 2012 at 09:37 pm
Deb
Joe is a proMD troll. He couldn’t care less for those hurt. He has a dog in this hunt and it ain’t the lost or let down.
Dee-
Your own words betray you. I used to think this blog was open before your conversation started on how to deal with a “troll” like me.
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Dee-
Yes you don’t know me, but I have been commenting enough and telling you who I am and who I am not throughout the process. If you want to continue to hold to the belief and practice that this blog is open, you have to allow the few dissenting voices to speak.
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Joe
I have said this to you and others before. You need to express concern for those hurt by Mars Hill. Then I will listen to you.This blog is open. You get to comment even when I don’t like what you say. I can assure you that such a thing is not allowed on most of the Calvinista blogs. We allow the battle here, not blind “Isn’t it wonderful how we all agree.”
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I am in full agreement with the thrust of the posting yet I find it disconcerting that you perceive the errors of John Piper and his ilk to be inseparably linked with Calvinism. My theology is largely Calvinistic yet I am thoroughly egalitarian (and I’m sure that I am not alone in this).
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Dean
I know that your definition of Calvinism his most likely very different than Piper’s definition. But, I do not know show to differentiate except to call them Calvinistas instead of Calvinists.
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Challies lectured on proper speaking technique? BAHAHAH This I gotta see. (and I do like Challies most of the time).
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Ok read the CP article — that was REALLY a brief transcript. Wow. He sure did not deal with it in-depth and I agree, the going to the bathroom ONLY with permission thing is ridiculous and indicates big problems in that relationship.
I’ve never thought there was anything wrong with complementarianism as taught in Scripture, but I think a lot of people teach it some other way. I’m as tomboy as they come. I would rather be out bowhunting than cleaning my house (and it shows) and I hate unbiblical coercion by anyone in the church over anyone else. I do consider men the heads of their wives, but unfortunately we are all sinners and the way that gets worked out is obviously fraught with disaster from day to day. God help us, we all need his grace and forgiveness and sometimes that involves NOT allowing someone to keep sinning against you by oppressing you!
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What a relief! I can only hold it for so long.
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JW
A new world is open for you. Just think-restrooms in restaurants, hotels, national parks….the sky’s the limit. 🙂