The Driscolls Share Their Views on SEX in Marriage on “The View”

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:8 (NIV)

In case you haven't noticed, Mark and Grace Driscoll are taking their Sex Gospel to the ends of the earth as they wander around peddling their HOT off the press book – REAL MARRIAGE:  THE TRUTH ABOUT SEX, FRIENDSHIP & LIFE TOGETHER.  It is this blogger's staunch opinion that their efforts are not being inspired by the Holy Spirit.  Yesterday the Driscolls pitched their provocative sex manual on The View.

Barbara Walters begins the interview with this introduction: 

"It is a gospel you probably never thought you'd hear from a man of the church, but the Lord wants married couples to have great sex to have it often and even experiment in the bedroom, and that's what the pastor of Seattle's Mars Hill megachurch Mark Driscoll and his wife Grace claim in a book that's being called the most provocative work ever written by an evangelical.  It is called Real Marriage:  The Truth about Sex, Friends and so forth, and you may, if you have young kids, you may want them to go into the other room now, we'll give you a second or two. Bye kids!"

Barbara, your opening statement is exactly right, and we call it the Sex Gospel, not to be confused with the "Gender Gospel".  Tragically, both are twisted views of Scripture. 

By divine providence my younger daughter (who turns 20 this summer) is on Spring Break, and we watched The View together.  I am so honored that she wants to spend her free time chillin' at home this week with her mom and dad.  After the short interview concluded, we had an interesting conversation about the Driscolls.  My daughter was NOT impressed!  While I plan to keep the details of our discussion private, I will tell you that her take away from the interview was this – there is just ONE REASON why guys would be motivated to get hitched.  If she's right that this is the message guys in her generation are getting from Real Marriage, then expect tremendous problems down the road with some of these young couples who are buying the Driscoll phony boloney hook, line, and sinker.

Now let's take a closer look at the interview… 

Barbara Walters shares with the audience (both in the studio and on television) that the Driscolls have been married for twenty years and that according to their book they had sexual problems and learned how to correct them.  She inquires about those problems and how the Driscolls fixed them.

Grace Driscoll explains:  "Well, we started out with a lot of things wrong in our marriage, and so we needed to discuss more honestly the things from our past, and I had suffered from sexual assault and various issues in my past and because we weren't aware of those in our marriage it made it very difficult to have an honest marriage."

Did you catch what Grace said?  "We weren't aware of those in our marriage…"   Who wasn't aware of those issues?  Who is "we"?  Does anyone else find that statement extremely odd?

Barbara then asks:  "Did you agree about sex?"

Mark jumps in and quickly answers her question by saying:  "Yeah, we did when we got married, and I think we started as close friends and then as the work and the duties of life come in, the friendship started to wane and I think that affects all levels of intimacy."

Barbara then responds:  "But I read the book and one of the things you say is that you thought of sex as god, and Grace you thought of sex as gross."

Mark deflects from Barbara's analysis by stating:  "Yeah, we talk in the book that some people see sex as god – it's way too important to them, almost obsessive.  For those that are overly religious or perhaps come from an abusive background, they tend to see it as very gross.  Our view is that it's a gift.  It's a gift that God gives us to enjoy and to steward well, and so it took some time for us to come to mutual agreement on that and to work that out."

Here's my question.  Why does Mark believe he's qualified to coach others about sexual obsessions?  Talk about someone being sex-obsessed!   

When Joy Behar chimes in and asks what Mark has against homosexuals having fun, he retorts: 

"Yeah, well we are Bible-believing Christians and so we do hold to the teaching of scripture and that is that sex is reserved for a married couple, a heterosexual married couple, so even when we were dating and we were sexually active, we were wrong.  And so we don't want to say that we're better or holier than anyone, but we were wrong as well and had to make some changes." 

What a feeble attempt at sharing the Gospel message with those who were watching.  That's why I don't believe the Holy Spirit is empowering Mark Driscoll.  As a pastor, he should have used the opportunity to talk about salvation, not sex – marital or not!

Next, Raven-Simone, who was filling in for Elisabeth Hasselbeck, timidly asks: "What does the Bible say about sex?"

Mark answers:  "Yeah, the first half of the book is really about friendship, and we think that friendship is the foundation to marriage, and then the second half of the book is about sex in the context of a loving friendship.  And the Bible does have quite a bit to say about sex, especially a whole book called the Song of Songs, and so I'm a Bible teacher, but it's in there.   Most people haven't read it or they missed that part."

Now Mark Driscoll is onto the Bible topic that inspires him the most.  David Kupelian of World Net Daily just wrote an article – The Church of Sex – that includes an excerpt from Driscoll's 2007 sermon called Sex, a Study of the Good Bits from Song of Solomon which drew the ire of John MacArthur and others.  The way Driscoll suggested that a wife win her husband to Christ is so graphic that we decided not to include it here; however, Kupelian reveals Driscoll's suggested technique.

Sherri Shepard keeps Mark Driscoll on topic with her remark:  "Well, let's get to the sex O.K. because I just got married."  She brings up the most controversial chapter in the Real Marriage book, which is "Can We _______?"  By this point, Mark is salivating as he addresses whether certain sex practices are biblical or not. 

"We talk about the things that couples may do but not things they must do," Mark says.  He likens this part of Real Marriage to a menu from which you can decide what suits your taste.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mark has devised his own sex menu.  Maybe he has a __ beside each item so he can check his preference(s).  Since Mark "sees things", I can see him placing his instructions on Grace's pillow so she will know what he has ordered for their next romp in the sack.  If Mark's list is alphabetized, we all know what tops the list, followed by a "job" that rhymes with snow.  I'm sorry – but this is all just too much!  My husband would appropriately label it TMI (too much information)!

As the interview comes to a close, Barbara Walters says:  "O.K. pornography, which you also deal with.  You say that pornography is sometimes in women's romance novels, even mainstream women's magazines, and they're sinful."  Whoopi Goldberg adds:  "Does that go for television as well?"

Grace responds: "Any form of lust that is not toward your affection toward your married marital spouse is a sin."  (Grace did stumble over her words a bit – she doesn't have the gift of gab like her husband.)

In the Brierley interview (which lasted the better part of an hour), Grace was only "allowed" to speak ONCE.  On The View, she actually got to speak TWICE over the course of five minutes, so things are definitely improving…

For another review of the Driscolls' interview, we recommend The Christian Post.

After appearing on The View, Mark Driscoll posted this comment on his Facebook account:

"Grace and I really enjoyed being on The View and sharing God’s truth about sex & relationships and how God forgives and helps us in this area that we all deal with every day. If you want to learn more, we will be live in these cities talking more about marriage and relationships: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, Anderson, SC (sold out), Lynchburg, VA and St. Louis, MO. Sign up now…"

As you might imagine, the affirming responses poured in from Driscoll sycophants.  However one negative response got through on Facebook which received these prompt responses:

Abraham Robledo "Hey Amber, chill out!!"

Justin Mohney ‎@Amber Womack-Kitavi, "if your statment above is implying that you in fact do know "about" God's love (or more than Mark and Grace) – you have a very ironic and oxymoronic way of stating such…interesting 'comment'…"

Jake Lynch "Hey how about instead of tearing into Amber for her remarks, we just allow her to have an opinion & pray for her?"

Here's the dilemma – I can't find Amber's comment ANYWHERE!  It was obviously deleted.  I saved the three comments listed above, and just before publishing this post, I have scrolled through the comments one more time, and the three cited above are GONE!  Isn't it incredible that someone is scrubbing Mark Driscoll's Facebook account?  Why in the world would you trust someone who deletes any and all negative reactions? 

Driscoll obviously believes his own press because only affirming commentary gets through; however, Driscoll and his Fan Boys have no control over the reviews posted on the Amazon website.  In an effort to provide a public service announcement regarding what Mark Driscoll advocates, here is an important One Star comment left under the Driscoll's book Real Marriage.

Anal Sex, Cancer and You. A Guide for the Hipster Christian Community, January 26, 2012

"According to Mayo Clinic (and hundreds of other medical sites), anal sex dramatically increases the risk for anal cancer. Just because the bible doesn't spell out for the reader "Hey McFly, don't do that" doesn't mean the behavior is wise or permissible. No, you will not go to hell just because you have anal sex with your spouse. But you might get cancer. Oh, but wait! Silly me….I failed to take into account the porn-saturated culture we live in. And since that is the case, I guess I should just let the porn industry dictate my sex practices, right? Because after all, I reaalllyyz wanna be a cool christian. Never mind the fact that we're talking about a practice that might involve poo."

travel lover added a comment under this one-star review which states: ( Feb 2, 2012 4:31:16 PM PST)

"In addition to expressing my whole hearted agreement to your comments I would only like to add that there is apparently growing concerns that oral sex can contribute to a type of throat cancer. As for anal sex, what part of the verses condemning those who have abandoned the "natural" use of the woman does Driscoll and the MHC leadership not get?! Are we to believe that God only applies this standard to homosexual sex? I think not! Such practices are not only unnatural and questionably safe and sanitary but they are demonstratably demeaning to women. God help the young wives out there who now hope that their husbands also get Driscoll's admonition that such things are permissible if consensual and when they say "no" it is the end of discussion!"

Driscoll is escalating, and incredibly his buddies are just sitting by tight-lipped watching it happen…  What will Mark Driscoll do for an encore?  We cringe at the thought… 

In the meantime, we believe countless young people (who are around the ages of our own children) are being hurt by Driscoll's cavalier attitude toward sex.  Please, for the sake of your own health, listen to us!   We have nothing to gain because we're not selling anything.  The same cannot be said of the Driscolls.  They know sex sells, and they are laughing all the way to the bank!

Lydia's Corner:  Jeremiah 22:1-23:20   2 Thessalonians 1:1-12   Psalm 83:1-18   Proverbs 25:11-14

Comments

The Driscolls Share Their Views on SEX in Marriage on “The View” — 193 Comments

  1. I just realized that my younger daughter is the age my older daughter was when she heard Driscoll talk about being “Naked and Unashamed” on her college campus.

  2. Parent –

    I can understand your (sigh). It must be frustrating to see young men and women thinking MD is so great when you know he is selling a lie. I’m concerned for people who buy into “all” of the book and then find it wasn’t the truth. And I agree – it is christianized porn. I also cannot stand what he did with SofS :( and then tells the world on The View. I wish there was some way to tell them that he doesn’t speak for all of us.

  3. Deb –

    Grace didn’t look to comfortable and I was thinking the same thing as Barbara about their hand holding. It looked very awkward.

  4. Bridget
    Grace looked scared to me. But the question is, “Of what was she afraid?” Or was she just awkward? She appeared to focus totally on MD for the interview. I would have been pleased if MD had tried to speak about Jesus. Or does he think talking about oral sex constitutes the 4 Spiritual Laws (or was it The Four Sexual positions?)

  5. Parent
    At least they are in a situation in which they do hear about the Bible from time to time. Eventually, things will go too far and then change will come. I doubt they can keep this game up forever.

  6. I get the obsession with sex in the “world,” but it grieves me to see that obsession within the body of Christ. I see this as simply another “seeker” method of appealing to the sense of entitlement and gratification of the flesh.

    I’ve heard an analogy that may be appropriate here. While I love gardening and plants and soil give me pleasure, it’s another story when that soil is tracked into my living room. When sex is held up as the focal point of the gospel to the degree MD has done, it’s beauty is diminished and out-of-place.

  7. I think that since the SBC does not run from this man, it says a lot about how far the SBC has fallen. All this sex talk is sick, sick, and sick!!

  8. The way Driscoll suggested that a wife win her husband to Christ is so graphic that we decided not to include it here; however, Kupelian reveals Driscoll’s suggested technique.

    AKA “Flirty Fishing”, straight out of one of Mo David’s Mo Letters.

    Doesn’t matter if his name’s Mark. After all this, he’s always going to be “B.J.Driscoll” to me.

  9. Dee –

    I listened to the video and then didn’t remember hearing the name of God or Jesus! The View clearly wants to hear about the “Sex” Book. I guess they have heard enough controversy about it to hopefully draw a viewing audience. They certainly haven’t asked any other church leaders to be on — you and Deb need to get on there to give another perspective :)

  10. Is it not abuse of Grace to have her be a part of these interviews where she is not there to participate? MD will not allow this.

  11. mot,

    Maybe Mark uses a secret hand squeeze to let Grace know when she is allowed to say something.

  12. So, porn is evil but Driscoll’s dirty little book is GODLY? Really? I cringe that women from the View got this garbage and probably will run with this as orthodox Christianity… I have to go with Joy Behar on this one, if all of this is ok then why are you so down on homosexuals? How can he say well none of this is a sin but, what you do over there is. Deb and Dee you read internetmonks discussion of J. Piper and his critique of why the tornadoes happened. Why can’t he give a critique about MD and the bedroom??

  13. Robin,

    I commented on the IMonk post about Piper’s pronouncement.

    Remember that Piper and Mahaney mentored Driscoll? These guys deserve each other!

  14. I forgot to mention in the post that everyone in the audience took home a FREE copy of Real Marriage.

  15. This may have come up before but why does this book claim “The Truth About Sex, Friendship, and Life Together.” So – MD claims to have the “truth.” What if I claim that? It’s interesting how “Sex” is first in his list of three points because . . . sex is THE most important part of MD’s marriage?

  16. Free copies – ugh!!! Who’s paying Driscoll’s salary while he is off selling books? Who pays for all his travel? Does he keep all the money from the book? Was he paid a salary while writing the book? Mars Hill – what you say to this? How is God’s money being used? Does anyone know?

  17. I’m not sure exactly how Piper and Mahaney have actually mentored Driscoll. Stamp of approval? Okay, definitely see that. Mentored? … not so sure about that one.

  18. WTH
    It was said that Mahaney was called in to mentor Driscoll. Whether it happened or Mahaney just played basketball with him is up in the air.

  19. For all his faults, Driscoll can certainly be quippy. The referee line had me laughing. Not convinced it’s true, but fairly humorous image nonetheless.

  20. Basketball sounds more like it.

    Wow! Doesn’t Tim Challies sound so spiritual and thankful and bubbly! He needs to update his data file on these guys by reading Survivor, Refuge, IMonk, and Mars Hill Refuge.

    I wonder if these reformed guys ever read anything outside their little world to see what’s going on beyond themselves.

  21. I’m only just now catching up on the last few posts because I was spending time with my daughter while she was in Sydney (at this moment she is in the air somewhere over Europe) Just a couple of days ago we were having a talk about the noticeable immaturity of a lot of Christian young men over here, and wondering how far that could be attributed to the infiltration of pornography into the Christian community. True fact — at least 2 major conservative theological colleges in Sydney (they are the ones I know about for sure) are battling major epidemics of pornography amongst young men who are training to be future pastors/missionaries etc. I’m talking about the discovery of A LOT of pornographic downloads on the college’s own computers (let alone what students may be downloading on their own devices).

    Mark Driscoll is NOT helping with this book. Taking the pornography mindset into marriage (it’s ok because I only do it with my wife, but I believe she was given to me for my gratification and she needs to submit to my “needs”) does not solve anything. What happened to the fruit of the Spirit like love and patience and self-control? As someone who knows a bit about the world of sexual abuse victims, I am beyond appalled at the way Grace’s wounds have been handled.

  22. “I wonder if these reformed guys ever read anything outside their little world to see what’s going on beyond themselves.”

    No, that would be partaking in worldly gossip.

  23. And on a less humorous note …

    http://boarsheadtavern.com/2009/01/19/2611/

    The process of alienating former advocates with the sex stuff has been happening over time.

    Then there’s his observation about how over the years Piper changed into less of a “Christian Hedonist” and more of an Edwardsian who frontloads sovereignty into everything. As I’ve been discovering during my Presbyterian days there were Reformed theologians and teachers who thought Edwards’ endorsement of the Great Awakening was problematic and that not all his theology is worth assimilating.

    http://boarsheadtavern.com/2008/12/15/1347/

  24. “MMA can be redeemed as a Christian sport.”

    So MD wrote an article to redeem MMA as a Christian sport.

    What a waste of time. I find it bad writing for a pastor to use words like “redeem” while writing about a sport that he thinks people should be ok with. MMA is ok, but some pastors at SGM were upset with a man doing Yoga? Oy!!

  25. He definitely is making an impact with younger preachers. At the church we attend, a small SBC church, the youth pastor is in his 20’s and graduated from SBTS. He preaches quite frequently as they are searching for a new pastor. He regularly quotes Driscoll, and this past Sunday he actually plugged the book. Unbelievable.

  26. I’d rather watch a marathon of Blues Clues and Powerpuff Girls with toddlers than watch MMA, personally.

  27. Lynne

    You said “As someone who knows a bit about the world of sexual abuse victims, I am beyond appalled at the way Grace’s wounds have been handled.” Well said. I agree.

  28. Tom R.

    I agree the SBC is really losing it. The shock of my life came last week when my devoted to all things SBC mother, told me she was going with a group from our local LCMS congregation to Israel. She said, “Hey they believe the Bible to be inerrant, and they are conservative.” I was just in total awe that she wouldn’t be endorsing SBC this and SBC that. I am not sure what the SBC will look like in twenty years. I don’t think I will really know because I will probably not be attending one.

  29. Sophia – I watched the pilot on Hulu.com a few nights ago. Kristin Chenowyth is killer – though I think they need to be a bit less soap-opera-ish about it. (I like Annie Potts, too.)

  30. WTH, I couldn’t agree more. I love Chaplain Mike, his writing does a lot for me. But I can only imagine what Spencer’s commentary on the day would be. Beyond priceless, no doubt.

    Lynn Tait, I wasn’t aware porn was more rampant over here than down under, but there’s probably more truth to what you’re saying than anyone would dare admit. And your thoughts on patience are very true imo. I used to hold a more Driscoll like view, thank God I threw up that Kool-aide before I married.

    Dee, I’m sure you’d make a great Orthodox, but you’re gonna have to work on that beard. :O

  31. To be fair you might want to listen to the interview that they did on Family Life a few weeks back. I personally don’t follow Mark Driscoll and have little respect for him, but it wasn’t a bad interview. Grace talked and told her story. There seemed to be respect for one another and love between them. I have to say my view was skewed because of what I have heard about him, but in general it was a fair interview.

  32. It’s almost like an attempt to make a post-modern Christendom. Talking about “Christian sex-practices” and “Christian sports” what is wrong with these people? Really!

    Also, why is Mark Driscoll, someone claiming to be a minister of the Lord Jesus, going on The View to promote a book and talk about sex? Anyone else wonder why the words biblical, scripture, sin, godly are mentioned but never is the name Jesus spoken. The whole lot of the words are worthless if not in His Name. For all Driscoll’s hate for ‘religion’, he himself is forming a cult of personality.

  33. I have a new hobby. I study faces.

    I did a screen shot of the time where Barbara is telling the audience to get the children out of the room. Her face and Grace’s face are full of deep sadness. In contrast, Mark’s now two faced face (left side shows likely the sorrows of being pierced many times, right side shows the proud and impish Mark) shows the right side drawing up into a very evil grin. Mark blinks and turns his face toward Barbara just before this transition can complete.

    I have requested that God wipe the proud and impish smile from Mark Driscoll’s face. It would appear we are about half way there. May this be completed soon!!

  34. Mark describes viewing sex as ‘god’ as a sin, which it is, but never reaaaallly acknowledges that he did the same. In the book he admits for a single sentence that he viewed sex as ‘god’, but immediately follows it up with what Grace thought about sex and why. He doesn’t seem to show remorse for his attitude at any point. In fact Grace seems to affirm it, by saying that it was partially a ‘real physical need’. So viewing sex as god is partially valid? Way to contradict yourself, Mark.

    The ‘never say no’ advice they give is entirely in Mark’s favour and doesn’t acknowledge that he (and by extension, any husband) should let it slide if his wife really really isn’t in the mood. Grace confesses and grovels over how she ‘deprived’ Mark’s ‘needs’, but Mark doesn’t seem to say that a husband make a sacrifice every now and then for his wife’s comfort. Instead, the problems he sees with viewing sex as god is that it will lead to pornography, infidelity and using prostitutes. Overwhelming one’s wife doesn’t seem to be on the list. Being a ‘selfish lover’, in his eyes, is about withholding sex only. Demanding/expecting it is OK.

    Mark is a hypocrite in these matters, being as sex obsessed as he is. Worse, his pro-male POV on sex is only destroying what he’s trying to do. If he wants to fight the worldly idea of masculinity and produce ‘godly men’, not ‘boys who shave’, he’s doing the exact opposite of what needs to be done. Insisting that manhood is about macho-ness, ridiculing and bullying other people who aren’t like him, insinuating that wives should submit themselves as sex toys for their husbands, all of this is just making the problem worse.

  35. It isn’t as much about what sex practices go on between a married couple. In my world, I don’t want to know.

    It IS about how Driscoll is demeaning and objectifying his poor wife. It seems, in his mind, she exists to service him. How tragic is that.

  36. What’s sad is that in their “celebrity pastor” world, making it onto “The View” is quite an achievement. Even if one has to pick a topic like sex in order to get there.

  37. Robin
    There is so much bizarre stuff going on in the post-evangelcial circus that there is some pull, for me, to liturgical practices. At least that has been vetted over centuries and I won’t have to worry that some latest and greatest emphasis will show up, at least in the liturgy side unless one is dealing with one of the rather strange rewrites I have seen.

  38. Sophia
    I lived for 10 years amongst them in Dallas. Too many memories of plastic surgeries and flashy dressing and huge, over decorated houses on zero lot lines while people hid that they were in hock up to their lifted eyebrows. This city girl from birth discovered she was country in her soul and today I let the birds in the forest in my backyard decorate my life. However, truth be told, I would like to watch an episode.

  39. Tod M: “I have requested that God wipe the proud and impish smile from Mark Driscoll’s face.”

    I’ve seen exactly what you are talking about. Not the half face on The View but the whole impish and smug look on his face in his Peasant Princess series when he’s hinting around about what “fruit” is in Songs 2:3. He’s talking about how this fruit (Wink, wink, nod, nod) is sooooo sweet to the Beloved when really the one who was thinking that it was saweeeeettt was the one who is so proud of his own fruit. Yep thoughts of his own fruit being saweeeet brings him so much delight when he imagines how sweet it she’s supposed to think it is… (sorry, I hope the kids had already left the room).

    This impish and oh so smug and self satisfied grin during this portion of his series gave me the willies so bad I wondered how anyone watching could not be as creeped out as I was.

    But the crazy thing was, I saw this impish, smug, self-satisfied look in the animated version before the series began. They had an animated apple tree with a face on the trunk swaying side to side. It was soooooo happy over how sweet it imagined its fruit was to someone else and how much pleasure it would get from someone thinking it’s fruit was this so gosh, darn sweet. This was also incredibly disgusting to me before I ever got to the series and Driscoll’s grin. I marveled at the deception. The animators must have seen that impish look on Mark when he preached this, mistook it for something that wasn’t creepy and disgusting, and animated it. It passed inspection and became part of the opening credits of this series.

    Yep, Tod M. I know that proud, impish grin you speak of. I agree, it needs to be wiped off his face. I better pray for my attitude first before I attempt to join you in praying for Mark.

  40. Miguel
    My father was Russian Orthodox and the priest blessed my wedding reception. As for the beard….well, I can cook all sorts of Russian food, so I will join the babushkas in the kitchen. BTW the Polka Cousins played at my reception.

  41. strawberryred
    Do you know how man interviews and sermons we have listened to by MD and a few attended by his wife? Good night! I am sure that he hits the right note on occasion. I have heard some myself. But then again, lots of bizarre individual have their moments. We are talking about trends here, not specifics. I am sure that MD is a nice father as well. I still do not like the overall trajectory of his preaching.

  42. What married people choose to do is certainly not Mark Driscoll’s or any one else’s business. I cannot think of any NT instruction on sex other than mutual love, respect and consideration. This man is an overgrown, smug, Christian frat boy and I am afraid that lots of similarly immature young Christian guys are going to buy into this.

    The danger here is by allowing a man to dictate what can be done, we open the door to allowing ourselves to be told what cannot be done, in areas of our lives over which he has no jurisdiction.

    This further trivializes the gospel. Driscoll and others bash modern Christianity as having been too “feminized”-when they really mean trivialized or “sillified”…Well, this is a Christian gospel gone “masculinized”- if masculine means selfish and almost infantile. What distortions of true, honorable femininity and masculinity are out there! Where is the real thing? The one that is made in the image of God Himself? Does Mark Driscoll know that passage in Genesis, I wonder?

  43. DB: And this is why Deb and her daughter have reason to be concerned about what young men will pick up from this book. I abhor anything that suggests women are objects for the sexual gratification of men. Frat-boy culture does it, sometimes insisting that women are so annoying and stupid that our only value comes from our orifices. Driscoll doesn’t go this far, thank God, but he frames the ‘women are meant for sex’ argument within the context of marriage and wifely submission.

  44. Tod

    You may have a new job. Bill O”Reilly of The O’Reilly Factor has a woman who is a body language expert who analyzes various public figures. Why don’t you become a body language expert for Christian public figures? We can feature you here at TWW.

  45. So Grace said “we” weren’t aware of the sexual molestation, huh?

    I’m going to suggest a pattern here. I want to state emphatically up front that I have NO WAY of knowing this is true. It is entirely my thoughts, I could be wrong, and I hold it with humility, BUT…. has anyone else noticed….

    In the video of “I see things” Mark gives 4 examples of things he has seen. The first is a story about a woman cheating on a man “early in the relationship.” The next two are about repressed memories of sexual molestation, but they sound like the same story told 2 different ways. The fourth is about a man beating up his wife.

    Many people have made the connection that the first story bears a remarkable resemblance to the story he tells in Real Marriage of realizing that his wife had cheated (and in fact, if you listen to the “I See Things” video, Mark words it in a way to imply that this was a couple he was counseling, but if you listen, he never says anything that would pin him as a “third party counselor” in the room with them).

    So, the next two (which sound like the exact same story told twice) are about someone with repressed sexual memories, and now Grace is saying that “we” didn’t know about her past abuse prior to marriage?

    And the third story he tells is about a husband beating up his wife, and he goes out of his way to say that the wife was “a pretty blond lady” who threatened to go to “the elders” about the abuse (instead of saying she’ll go to “the pastor”).

    I’m just saying, folks. I’m just saying.

  46. Then again, she could be implying that the problem was that BOTH of them didn’t know about the abuse so they could work on it together. I guess that would explain her comment. Still. I have always wondered if that molestation story was something supposedly from his own life.

  47. By the way, is Grace really that scared of cameras, or is there another reason why she looks radically uncomfortable EVERY SINGLE TIME that I see her in a video with Mark, including their little internet preview for Real Marriage?

  48. sad observer: I think it’s partly her nature now. She seems so beaten down to me, partly because of her past abuse but also, remember, Mark spent the first ten years of their marriage being bitter, boorish and harsh towards her. His own words.

    Poor, poor woman. :(

  49. He’s talking about how this fruit (Wink, wink, nod, nod) is sooooo sweet to the Beloved when really the one who was thinking that it was saweeeeettt was the one who is so proud of his own fruit. Yep thoughts of his own fruit being saweeeet brings him so much delight when he imagines how sweet it she’s supposed to think it is… — Mara

    The way you describe it, I’d expect Bee Jay Driscoll to put his hand in his pants to Feel his Saweeeeetttt Fruit.

    They had an animated apple tree with a face on the trunk swaying side to side. It was soooooo happy over how sweet it imagined its fruit was to someone else and how much pleasure it would get from someone thinking it’s fruit was this so gosh, darn sweet. — Mara

    Don’t forget “so gosh darn” JUICY JUICY JUICY…

    After this from a Man of Gawd (TM), I don’t want to hear any static about me being a Furry and a Brony. Not after hearing this.

  50. At the church we attend, a small SBC church, the youth pastor is in his 20′s and graduated from SBTS. He preaches quite frequently as they are searching for a new pastor. He regularly quotes Driscoll, and this past Sunday he actually plugged the book. Unbelievable. — Tom R

    Bee Jay Driscoll is the Flavor of the Month, just like Hal Lindsay was back in the Seventies. Everybody on the bandwagon.

    And Bee Jay’s sex obsession resonates real well with a preacher-boy in his 20s trying to make his mark. Anyone who preaches a sex gospel is going to get fanboys. Especially male fanboys in their 20s with the purple hornies. “Indulgences” in more than one sense of the word.

  51. “MMA can be redeemed as a Christian sport.”

    So MD wrote an article to redeem MMA as a Christian sport. — Bridget2

    One former MMA cage fighter on the Web (retired after a couple bad concussions) did a little analysis on Driscoll’s MMA comments and concluded that Driscoll is the worst type of cage-fight fanboy — the type who’s there just to see someone get Beat Up and Hurt. And imagine they are the Tough Guy doing the Beating Up.

  52. After some of the aforementioned references to Driscoli thinking his manhood is somehow “fruit” and considering how anti-female he is, I find it delightful to remind the reader that fruit is part of the female sexual organ of the flowering plant. Nothing Mark Driscoll has or spews is fruit.

    The closest thing he possesses is seed or, if we are going to stray into Botany, pollen, yes, the almost microscopic stuff that makes you sneeze during allergy season.

  53. So, they were fornicating before marriage. Doing research for Chapter 10?
    When they got married the sex dried up. My guess is that sex was the “forbidden fruit” prior to their marriage. Once they got married it wasn’t as enticing.
    So, Grace said “We” didn’t know about the sexual abuse. Did Mark have one of his pornovisions on her?

  54. So Mark gets a chance to go on nationwide TV, and instead of using those few minutes to offer Jesus to people, instead spends it talking about oral and anal sex. Good job, “pastor”.

  55. No question in my mind that Driscoll has gone off the rails. I hope it’s just a matter of time before his followers start to realize it, but I’m not too optimistic. Nowhere in the clip shown did they give the message of the gospel; I don’t think Jesus was even mentioned.

    I think one of the chief causes of this kind of thing is the view of the bible as a handbook for every detail of life rather than primarily a story of God’s work in history and in our salvation. The handbook view of scripture results in literalism that leads to seeing as prescriptive a number of things in scripture that are descriptive, with some twists to suit one’s own interests (e.g. Driscoll’s take on Song of Solomon).

    That dynamic can lead to some pretty bizzaire stuff. The sad thing is that the average person in the pew doesn’t have the resources or trainig to recognize this and act on it by voting with their feet, especially if the preacher is somewhat captivating and the show is entertaining.

  56. Mark
    From what I understand, he did have a “vision” about her having sex with another when they were dating. He waited until she woke up and confronted her and she said he was right. He considers this a terrible betrayal in spite of the fact they were not married and they had sexual relationships outside of marriage. His anger at this situation, years later, is very odd.

  57. Mara:

    I have a lot of personal knowledge of how painful, humbling, and downright scary God’s true discipline can be. Indeed, as Jacob I “limp” having many physical issues to deal with.

    It has made me realize how I have hurt others, and how deeply I have hurt Him. He wanted so many good things for me – but – I copped out and took the easy road which stole much from others, God’s Kingdom, and myself as well.

    So I understand that in God’s discipline is part of God’s mercy which we all need. It satisfies the need we all have for justice when it produces contrition, or at least an end of offences.

  58. A dream, actually, which can be explained in a naturalistic way by Driscoll’s observation that all his previous women cheated on him. He and Grace were about to have their first child and a nightmare that Grace had been unfaithful could even be explained as possibly deriving from an anxiety not necessarily about just sexual infidelity but possibly a dormant fear that if she hadn’t been faithful completely to him he’d be raising some other guy’s baby. Ecclesiastes 5 says that as a dream comes with many cares so foolishness with many words. Now while I get people will want to emphasize the second part of that axiom with Driscoll I think the first half is informative. Even within the Bible there is a warning that the majority of dreams we have should not be construed as divine missives but as outworkings of our waking anxieties. So “vision” is too vague and blurry in light of what Driscoll has published in his book.

    It is also a useful thing to keep in mind in light of the “call for reconciliation”. Driscoll had a dream, a dream mind you, in which Grace cheated on him this one time sexually with some other guy and the dream so troubled Mark that he woke up from it, threw up, and stayed up until he could ask Grace if the thing he saw in his dream happened. Now if Grace had replied that Mark had a dream about something that never happened how would things have gone differently? What if the thing he dreamed didn’t happen? What if did happen and Grace said it was something that happened at one point but hadn’t happened “in roughly six years”? Grace said it did happen back in a period when they were just starting to date.

    There’s more than one way to interpret a dream and its significance even if at an emotional level a person might only want to interpret it one way. We don’t know that Mark couldn’t have this dream and interpreted as founded in one anxiety that may have been pointing to another. We should be cautious about interpreting dreams as divine oracles or revelations of things that did or will happen.

  59. Dee:

    I am actually learning face reading, body language, and seeing truth or lies to help me overcome the loss of the ability to emotionally connect. Obstructive Sleep Apnea undiagnosed for a couple of decades has reduced the ability of may parts of my brain to communicate with one another – so – while I may be able to connect and read faces the usual “thoughtless” way I will probably loose that ability sometime during the day.

    As well, my productive time each week is quite limited.

    My time here is in the hope that I can “put up a sign” around a man hole I fell into.

    I have not been up to having a job for a couple of years now, but thanks for the thought.

  60. http://marshill.com/2012/03/08/calling-all-cowards

    “So regardless of how you have denied Jesus with your deeds and words, he is faithful to forgive you and restore you to a vibrant relationship with him as he did Peter. Whether you’ve failed to be identified with Jesus while your friends were mocking him and Christians, or you’ve walked away from him and the church for many years, he is faithful to forgive you of your sins and empower you with the Holy Spirit to live courageously for his glory.”

    http://marshill.com/2012/03/09/from-wreckage-to-reconciliation

    “After being publicly disciplined by a church for not speaking in tongues on command, I bitterly left God behind and lived as an atheist for the next five years. ”

    Wowza…subtle implications :)

  61. I think that Driscoll needs to give the subject of sex a break, seriously. Just leave it alone. His weird dreams about his wife, their fornication, her infidelity early in their dating, pronovisions about other women, just leaves me thinking that he has real issues about this. His hand-death-grip on his wife during the View interview tells all.
    I think the underbelly of his psyche is really showing through. The sex book was just an outgrowth of his dealing with his own demons. He can’t deal with Grace being more sexually confident than he is.

  62. Or as a warrant officer back in my old AirCav unit used to tell us, “When all a man talks about is how much he likes ***** (ed.), then you know he ain’t gettin’ none.”

  63. I have a verse for Mark and Grace. You may think that you are “real” and “relevant” but in actuality, when you go on national television and speak of private things…………..
    “the name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles on your account.”

  64. Tod
    I am so sorry for the difficulties that you have had. It seems that God can use such things to bring insights for others. Thank you for taking the time to share with us here.

  65. I think that Driscoll needs to give the subject of sex a break, seriously. Just leave it alone. His weird dreams about his wife, their fornication, her infidelity early in their dating, pronovisions about other women, just leaves me thinking that he has real issues about this. His hand-death-grip on his wife during the View interview tells all.
    I think the underbelly of his psyche is really showing through.
    — Mark

    And since he seems to be the type of Celebrity CEO who can only tolerate yes-men around him who he can dominate completely, there’s nobody who can give him a reality check. (That’s how Saddam & Gadhafi both fell.) So that “underbelly of his psyche” is just going to masturbate itself and fester until one day everything’s going to blow sky-high.

    I think this guy’s going to crash and burn someday, and crash and burn HARD. Stay well clear — when he goes, you don’t want to be in the blast radius.

  66. HUG linked to the article analyzing Driscoll’s take on MMA. I thought this quote was interesting.

    “… perhaps this is the main reason that I bristle when Driscoll begins to opine on MMA, because he is the type of fan that fighters despise. If you go to any live event, you will know why: the fans are there for blood. Well, more accurately, they are there to get drunk, whistle at ring-card girls, and bullshit about why they would fight if some circumstance outside of their control were different. But mainly, they are there to see blood. If you can count on fans yelling anything during a fight, it is the cry, “Elbow him! Elbow him!” An elbow that is delivered properly can be much more destructive than a fist. One well-timed elbow can end a fight—or a career. By their cries, many fans make it clear that they are there for one reason: to see someone get hurt.

    Fighters regard these types of fans as—to borrow a term from the armed services—chickenhawks. A chickenhawk is a person who endorses war with all the belligerent bellowing of a drill sergeant, yet when the time comes to enlist, they are nowhere to be seen. So the MMA churches and their MMA pastors can rail all they want against the “fat, lazy” men who critique MMA, but I, as a former fighter, have a great deal more respect for the person who is willing to interrogate my sport for the well-being of its participants than one who, from an equally distanced vantage point, deceives himself into thinking that he is a fighter and speaks so self-assuredly about what MMA is.”

  67. mot
    Oh good night! Well, I guess Driscoll knows how to get attention. Just talk sex and the world responds. I wonder if anyone realizes that he follows Jesus?

  68. Christians are to be in the world but not of the world. The Driscolls are blending in with the world quite well as they make merchandise of their book.

  69. Anne,

    “The ‘never say no’ advice they give is entirely in Mark’s favor and doesn’t acknowledge that he (and by extension, any husband) should let it slide if his wife really really isn’t in the mood. Grace confesses and grovels over how she ‘deprived’ Mark’s ‘needs’, but Mark doesn’t seem to say that a husband makes a sacrifice every now and then for his wife’s comfort. Instead, the problems he sees with viewing sex as god is that it will lead to pornography, infidelity and using prostitutes. Overwhelming one’s wife doesn’t seem to be on the list. Being a ‘selfish lover’, in his eyes, is about withholding sex only. Demanding/expecting it is OK.”

    I agree with you. Grace is a sexual object for Mark Driscoll. Demanding various forms of sex whenever and wherever he wants it and then blaming her if she doesn’t want to submit to these demands is not only selfish, but further sexual abuse of her. If it weren’t tragically sad, Mark Driscoll’s claim that OTHERS have a problem with “sex as god” would be hilarious. He is the most sex-obsessed Christian public figure I’ve ever seen. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – Mark Driscoll has serious sexual problems. He is hiding something, and I’m sure it isn’t pretty.

  70. Mot,

    “Can someone explain to me what MD thinks he is accomplishing with this “Sex Book?”

    Sex offenders use sex to exert power over their victims. This is exactly what Mark Driscoll is doing. He is using a twisted sexualized “gospel” to exert power over Grace, his “followers”, and the public. Here, imo, is what he wants to gain:

    1. Money
    2. Power
    3. Attention
    4. Fame
    5. Further (and public) blame on Grace
    6. Further manipulation and humiliation of Grace
    7. Further pressure for Grace to perform
    8. Justification of his sexual problems
    9. Public affirmation, acceptance, and validation that his sexual problems are “biblical”

  71. Wendy:

    Thanks for your reply. As I said recently I find it more than ironic that MD’s wife’s name is Grace!

  72. Grace did the best job advocating for satisfaction from relationship with Christ. IMO, Mark should step aside and let his wife have center stage MUCH more often! From the Christian Post article at the link:

    QUOTE: “We know a lot of widows actually, and single moms, and they are very happy,” Grace Driscoll said. “They have a relationship with Jesus. They are very happy serving other people and they can be content. If they desire to have sexual relations again when they get married … yes, but they can be content without that.”

  73. I agree with you. Grace is a sexual object for Mark Driscoll. Demanding various forms of sex whenever and wherever he wants it and then blaming her if she doesn’t want to submit to these demands is not only selfish, but further sexual abuse of her. — Wendy

    Anyone want to make book as to whether Grace is getting smacked around behind the scenes?
    1) Domineering husband who’s a cage-fight fanboy.
    2) Only definition of “masculine” is “I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”
    3) Countered by buttery doughy physique and Mickey Mouse T-shirts.
    4) Probably hypersexual (either having a LARGE sex drive or even a male nymphomaniac), definitely obsessed.
    5) Possibly into additional-orifice kink.
    6) Autocratic CEO type who surrounds himself with Yes-Men.
    7) “WOMAN, SUBMIT!”

  74. I think that Driscoll needs to give the subject of sex a break, seriously. Just leave it alone. — Mark

    Like I said, the guy’s obsessed, maybe to the point of being a male nymphomaniac.

  75. HUG linked to the article analyzing Driscoll’s take on MMA. I thought this quote was interesting. — Rory (see actual comment for quote)

    Like I also said, the WORST kind of cage-fight fanboy.

    Reminds me of stories of the gladiator aficionados at the Ampitheatrum Flavium (Colosseum) — who often got off sexually on the slaughter in the arena.

  76. I continue to be amazed that so many “southern baptist conservatives” see nothing wrong with anything that MD does. It borders on worshiping him.

  77. mot
    I am not so sure if many people understand the difference between adherence to theology and following Christ. You see, the devil is an excellent theologian and he is still the devil (paraphrase of AW Tozer)

  78. Deb:

    These folks are horribly blinded to the truth. Their eyes are not on Christ but a mere man.

  79. “Anyone want to make book as to whether Grace is getting smacked around behind the scenes?”

    I have been saying this for months.

  80. Sad Observer –

    Driscoll is off and I fear for the emotional well being for those in his path, but I don’t want to entertain the thought of him treating Grace like that.

  81. I’m a bit disappointed about the personal things being said about Driscoll and his wife. As supposed Christians is it right to be personally attacking someone we don’t know?

    By all means, point out errors and faults in teaching, etc, that’s part of being a discerning follower of Christ and the truth. As for the man though…none of us have the authority or knowledge to judge him.

  82. Eagle:

    You said:”Just look at how some people even try and dress, shave their head, and be like these people. It’s one of the reasons why I find Christianity is a joke.”

    Sadly, what you said is so true. It appears that folks idolize these people.

  83. HUG:“Anyone want to make book as to whether Grace is getting smacked around behind the scenes?”

    Sad Observer: “I have been saying this for months.”

    Bridget: “Driscoll is off and I fear for the emotional well being for those in his path, but I don’t want to entertain the thought of him treating Grace like that.”

    Numo: “Neither do I, but I have been suspecting as much for some time now…”

    And finally, Mara:

    There is more than one way to smack a person down. Driscoll is king of verbal smack downs. He’s also not known for pulling any punches (verbally) when he wants to make a point.

    Yes, I’d say that Grace has been smacked around plenty enough. If not physically, then definitely verbally, over and over, for years.

    And Luke, you can tell us not to judge. Yet the Bible states plainly that we will know them by their fruit. Watching the public verbal smack downs, seeing the emotional fallout and the myriad of walking wounded coming out of his church, and watching Grace in his presence is plenty enough evidence to make me question as to how much smacking down Grace has received and is receiving, either by his hand, or worse, by his mouth.

  84. “As supposed Christians is it right to be personally attacking someone we don’t know”

    Luke,

    One of the things I am finding so sad about this Driscoll drama is the lack of thinking of those who defend him. We know personal information about the Driscolls BECAUSE THEY TOLD US INTIMATE DETAILS OF THEIR LIVES even their SEX lives.

    How much more “personally” can you get. And how would knowing them “personally” change that. Are you suggesting that because they might be nice away from stages and cameras, all the other stuff does not matter?

    There is a thinking vaucity out there in young Christian circles that is very scary. They have an inability to connect logic and facts. Notice how Luke appeals to emotion based arguments to defend Driscoll. We do not know Driscoll “personally” so our comments are attacks. I guess the same could be true if we disagree with Obama? After all, Driscoll has been working hard to be well known. So one screams “Look at me”! for years and when we do and discuss it in detail it is an “attack”.

    Luke is not connecting the dots from Driscoll’s teaching on stage and in his books…. and understanding it IS his “doctrine” being played out for millions. One of the biggest problems out there is that so many are divorcing doctrine from behavior to excuse bad behavior. We have seen it with Mahaney, and other Nicolaitans. Correct doctrine should bring the right behavior over time.

    So, what is the real problem? It starts with the followers and their ignorance. There can be no Driscolls without followers.

  85. “HUG: “Anyone want to make book as to whether Grace is getting smacked around behind the scenes?””

    I don’t think this is the case at all….physical abuse. I think it is emotional and spiritual abuse that has become her “normal”. Mark would not chance bruises, etc. Grace was his albatross, and he is a martyr for her. It is all her fault he had little sex for all those years; yet HE stayed with her and suffered. He has played the whole thing to edify himself.

    Grace went along with her personal intimate details put in a book with her name on it as a co-author. She could have not gone along with that, but she did. With fame, she actually has more choices because Mark needs her to go along now. She could bring the whole thing down.

    After all, she is going along on stages and on TV with all of this. She is not a victim but a perpetrator of his behavior. She “enables” him. She believes the “woman are gullible” doctrine and plays it out with Mark. Mark does not need to smack her around. Just reading the book and watching them, one can pick up they have a totally dysfunctional and co-dependent relationship. She totally enables his behavior. And don’t forget the money. They have 5 kids and live very well.

    Read the book, “I promise to hate, despise and abuse you” on being married to a narcissist. The women who go along actually feed the narcissistic supply and have issues of their own. Everyone wants to feel sorry for Grace. I don’t after all these years. She has the same Bible I do. She has chosen over a long period of time to go along with being a doormat and making him a martyr and teaching other women to be a doormat. We are talking 20 years of this stuff. And remember, now this is her “normal”. She lives quite well and with a celebrity. Never forget the power in that.

    She is a “role model” to many women in the Reformed movement. That ought to scare people more.

  86. And since we’re on this topic…

    There are different kinds of abuses. We’ve mentioned physical and verbal. There is also emotional, sexual, and spiritual.

    Just fyi. Back in the day when Driscoll was sexually frustrated with his wife and the fact that he wasn’t getting the kind of wild and crazy, nymphomaniac, porn star quality sex that his porn culture upbringing made him think he was not only entitled to but that is one of his basic needs, like food and water…
    Anyway, back then when he was sexually frustrated with his wife he gave the famous good bits of SoS message in which he told those Scottish wives that Jesus COMMANDS them to service their husbands orally. And I’m going to label what he did to those Scottish wives exactly what it was. It was VERBAL ABUSE, SPIRITUAL ABUSE, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, and it contained strong elements of SEXUAL ABUSE.

    Now here is my very honest and to-the-point question.

    IF Driscoll felt the freedom and entitlement to abuse a congregation of women, in another country and on record (It was recorded, folks. That’s how we know, with out a doubt, that it went on)…
    If Driscoll felt entitled to speak to a group of women he didn’t even know like this, what the &%^% went on in the privacy of his own bedroom with one little woman who is supposed to be giving him porn star treatment and no tape recorder?
    You don’t think that Driscoll ever told Grace that Jesus commands her to service him as he desired?

    For those who don’t think so, get a freaking clue.
    The fruit of Driscoll’s lips is what condemns him, not our pointing out of his fruit.

  87. Luke
    Although I sympathize with some of what you said, I am confused. What do you mean by not having the “authority” to judge him?

  88. I agree completely with those who commented on verbal/emotional abuse.

    It is, however, possible to physically hurt another person in ways that don’t show when that person is wearing everyday street clothes. (I wish I didn’t know that, believe me.)

    Physical abuse seems to go hand in hand with verbal and emotional abuse. And I have my suspicions regarding MD’s sexual demands and the abuse that Grace says she experienced earlier in life – I mean, if the spouse doesn’t back down and support the one who is going through therapy/recovery, isn’t their lack of empathy an abusive thing in itself? (Not to mention ongoing sexual demands.)

  89. Mara – the “Christ commands it!” declaration is one of THE weirdest things I’ve ever heard, bar none. (Not to mention abusive – I simply cannot imagine Jesus doing any such thing.)

  90. While looking for parodies and spoofs not long ago I discovered that the porn industry has actually loaded up movie trailers for spoof porn movies. — Eagle

    Eagle, spoof knockoff titles are an old, old tradition in the porn industry. I used to sneak into the porn section of video rental places just to get a laugh out of some of the dumb-ass titles. (And the bibliography of the 1984 Meese Commission report includes a listing of sample titles. Some of them are completely hilarious.)

  91. If anything, I find it amusing how Christians have replicated a culture inside the church…

    Repeat after me, Eagle, everybody:

    “Just like Fill-In-The-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

    …except instead of asking questions about Taylor Swift or Katy Perry’s likes, dislikes, etc., They do the same thing for Mahaney, Driscoll, etc. Just look at how some people even try and dress, shave their head, and be like these people.

    I am reminded of a comment that “It’s a good thing none of the Gospels has any sort of physical description of Jesus — how he wore his hair, his beard, how he dressed. If the Bible mentioned that he wore red, we would now have a Holy Color of Dress.”

    I am also reminded of a comment about Extreme Islam at some party claiming that Muslims must sleep on their right side with one hand pillowing their head because that was how Mohammed was described as sleeping. (i.e. an Islamic sleeping position.)

  92. There is a thinking vaucity out there in young Christian circles that is very scary. They have an inability to connect logic and facts. — Anon1

    Humans are supposed to be able to think in abstractions (including logic).

    ANIMALS think only in emotional states and concrete experiences.

    Notice how Luke appeals to emotion based arguments to defend Driscoll. We do not know Driscoll “personally” so our comments are attacks. — Anon1

    An attack dog who has heard the command word from his Master.

  93. Don’t be too hard on Luke, he has a point. Although we are well educated in what Driscoll’s nature is, we don’t have any specific evidence of what his relationship with Grace is like (aside from “Real Marriage”, but even that isn’t a thoroughly complete picture).

  94. Mara

    You said “If Driscoll felt the freedom and entitlement to abuse a congregation of women, in another country and on record (It was recorded, folks. That’s how we know, with out a doubt, that it went on)…If Driscoll felt entitled to speak to a group of women he didn’t even know like this, what the &%^% went on in the privacy of his own bedroom with one little woman who is supposed to be giving him porn star treatment and no tape recorder?”

    This is a spot on observation! It is a valid question to ask.

    Once again, when people open themselves up to public scrutiny, and both Grace and Mark have done so, then they must be prepared to take on the observations that come with it. As you know, Deb and I allow all sorts of negative and harsh comments to be directed towards us in this venue. If we didn’t want the attention, we could take down the blog and live private lives. Why put stuff out there for people to read if you can’t take the heat?

  95. Anon1
    Did you see what appeared to be a “death grip” style of holding hands? It was patently obvious to the View, Barbara grabbed their hands.It appeared as if someone was afraid and I do not think it was Mark. Once again, very, very odd.

  96. That death grip hand holding was THE first thing I noticed. It could have been nerves . . . but it looked more like someone claiming his possession than loving hand holding. Grace just looked like a person who knows that this is just how it is done, because Mark likes it this way.

  97. “That death grip hand holding was THE first thing I noticed”

    It would be very interesting to see how the Driscolls settled into this posture. Did she reach over to take his hand or did he pull hers over to his knee.

    Her arm just looks uncomfortable! If he was not holding hands with his wife, his arms would be in much the same pose. But she has her arm at an odd angle, to accommodate her hand being held at that pose.

    Now, who cares? Right? Am I a silly woman obsessing about how someone is holding hands? All I know is that after decades of watching people and how they treat each other I “see things”! I see someone being inconsiderate of his wife’s comfort and I see a wife ignoring her awkwardness for the sake of a short TV segment (if not more).

    After all, it must be hard to be in front of all these cameras, answering questions, speaking in front of an audience.

    Ah, no. This couple are the great communicators of the gospel, are they not! If anyone should look comfortable and kind and loving and thoughtful, it would be these two!

    Bottom line – I listen to words and I look at behavior. Good words with occasional odd behavior I can live with. Thankfully I don’t have to live with watching Mark Driscoll do the white knuckle hold on his wife. Nothing he says is worth it.

  98. I see the same thing you see Heather. Men can be trained to see what women see. It’s not easy, but it can be done. I have learnt a great many things under the tutelage of my wife of 32 yrs.

  99. “Don’t be too hard on Luke, he has a point. Although we are well educated in what Driscoll’s nature is, we don’t have any specific evidence of what his relationship with Grace is like (aside from “Real Marriage”, but even that isn’t a thoroughly complete picture).”

    We need a more complete picture? Don’t we have enough? I don’t understand people much, I guess. I am wondering if people think there are some extenuating circumstances hidden with the Driscolls that make it all ok and them a normal everyday Christian couple who just happen to be celebrities. Anyone have a guess what the circumstances could be that would not give us a complete picture and change everything and let us know we are all wrong about them?

  100. Can I just say….that when a TV series writers start running out of ideas, they usually start resorting to graphic violence or potty humor and sexual inuendo to fill the gaps for original ideas.

    That’s how I view Driscoll…he probablly has run out of clever ideas and now has resorted to the last straw of topics he can shock with….for what it’s worth.

  101. Anon1
    The problem I had with Luke’s comment went way beyond what’s up with the Driscolls. Luke mentioned that we had “no authority” to comment on this issue. Now that is the crux of the matter. It seems to me that celebrity Christians who crave TV face time can do and say what they want and the rest of us have “no authority” to say anything except “good job.” Wait a minute….. That’s what authority nuts want. We can say good job and we have the authority to say it. But if we say “bad job” we have no authority. Now I am getting it. I am authorized to kiss up.

  102. @ Anon 1 (Sun, Mar 11 2012 at 10:00 am)

    I hear ya about Grace enabling. BTDT.

    HOWEVER, I still feel for her. It is a very painful and confusing condition. Though I wouldn’t know about the part about being married to a rich celebrity, I don’t believe Grace FEELS powerful at all. When my husband ruled me selfishly, I felt like a prisoner in a concentration camp.

    What finally snapped me out of it was when my children became teenagers, not so easy to control anymore, and abuse of them escalated. One can avoid physical abuse as long as one “submits” to the controller, but as soon as the controller starts to lose control, look out!

    Grace has a lifetime of her boundaries being violated and will take a LOT of abuse upon herself, but when her children are in the line of fire, I think you will see things change…which gives me HOPE! :)

    As you said, “She is a ‘role model’ to many women in the Reformed movement.”

    If Grace is unable to renounce the Sapphira spirit, there is still HOPE! Some day we will hear from their children.

    @Mara 10:26 TOUCHE!

  103. Charis,

    Welcome to TWW! I’m sure you speak for many women who are married to extremely controlling men. It’s so sad that children are also hurt in the process.

    I just read about a conference that took place on March 3 with Voddie Baucham as keynote speaker. I will be writing about it this week, and I’ll dedicate that post to you.

    Thank you for speaking out. Other women need to hear your testimony.

  104. JFTR,

    I think the celebrity fishbowl with explicit and intimate sexual details out there forever (imagine when her daughters are in high school…. How can they escape from chapter 10?)

    Makes the feeling of powerlessness and being trapped even more intense :(

  105. Anon 1: We don’t have video footage of what happens in the Driscoll house, or something like that. We have an abundance of clues though. I was thinking along the lines of a jury, really. If we were going to go before authorities and say that Mark was abusing Grace, even though there might be enough evidence to put him under police questioning, there wouldn’t be enough for a definite ‘guilty’ verdict.

  106. Charis
    I am so sorry for your ordeal. Were you supported by your church? Please don’t feel like you must answer if it dredges up too many bad memories.

  107. Charis
    When my kids were teens, they were embarrassed by what clothes I wore (I dress in nice clothes but they weren’t cool teen clothes) and how I said things. It is a teen thing. Can you imagine how much more this is escalated in the Driscoll house?

  108. Deb:
    Voddie Baucham. Isn’t he the guy that said that older men leave their wives for younger women because they ‘yearn for attention for younger women’, but ‘God gave them daughters for that?’

    Then he made a rather futile response to the media backlash: http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/voddie-baucham-ministries/blog/november-question-month-update-edition-2009-11/

    In it he pulls two classic excuses 1) “Critics were being unfair and not understanding it in the proper context. If they only knew me they wouldn’t hear it like how it sounds.” 2) “When I said ‘attention’ I didn’t mean it in the way it usually means when you’re talking about attention between an older man and younger woman. No, I meant it was the kind of attention between a father a daughter than the older guy craves. (Riiiight, because men pick up mistresses for every reason except physical).

  109. “If they only knew me they wouldn’t hear it like how it sounds.””

    Oh this is rich! Let’s see…Voddie makes his living COMMUNICATING to people. He writes books and speaks on stages all over the place. So now, we have to KNOW him to understand him.

    Anyone see a pattern here with all this stuff about not knowing the celebs personally.

  110. “Anon 1: We don’t have video footage of what happens in the “Driscoll house, or something like that. We have an abundance of clues though. I was thinking along the lines of a jury, really. If we were going to go before authorities and say that Mark was abusing Grace, even though there might be enough evidence to put him under police questioning, there wouldn’t be enough for a definite ‘guilty’ verdict.”

    I agree with this. And that is why I am so glad the Kingdom of God has a different standard for what is abusive treatment. I just wish those who claim to be in the Kingdom would live out Kingdom truths. When they don’t and teach spiritual abuse as Kingdom truths, we must correct them and point their followers to Christ.

    I don’t need a video in Driscoll’s home to know he is a spiritual abuser. He has told me and shown me enough.

  111. Anne,

    Voddie was rubbing elbows with John MacArthur, Al Mohler, Steve Lawson, and others last weekend at the Shepherds’ Conference.

    Keynote Speakers at the Shepherds Conference

    Click on “Keynotes” at the conference website

    Voddie’s Itinerary for March 7

    I will have much more to say about Voddie Baucham in the months ahead.

    He is speaking at the homeschooling conference in my state in late May as well as at a Gospel Coalition event in Louisville, Kentucky.

    He will also be at the 2012 Southern Baptist Convention on June 19 (not sure if he’s speaking or just attending).

    Voddie Baucham’s May Speaking Engagements

    May 22, 2012
    The Gospel Coalition Council 2012 Colloquium: Louisville, KY

    May 25, 2012
    North Carolina for Home Education, Home School Conf. Winston- Salem, NC. nche.com

  112. Deb:
    Ugh, anyone who buddies up to Al Mohler is immediately suspicious in my books. I’m guessing Voddie is a supporter of Purity Balls? Just guessing.

  113. No I probably don’t. Which is why I’ll do some research on this guy, methinks. The only problem is that I HATE HATE HATE ‘Biblical’ Manhood/Womanhood and can barely stomach to read any of that crap.

  114. Anne,

    Let me forewarn you. Voddie Baucham is a PATRIARCH PAR EXCELLENCE!

    BTW, Dee and I are adamantly opposed to patriarchs.

  115. Deb: Thanks for the warning. I’ll keep some Pepto Bismol by my computer while I read up on his blog.

  116. Dee (12:00)

    The church tried to help, but also made some huge “blame the victim” mistakes (which reverberate to this day- now 23 yod and her husband do not attend church at all).

    If things ever do escalate to violence I would recommend calling the police instead of the church and counseling with a professional (not the pastor). Retrouvaille is also constructive.

  117. Dee (12:02),
    One of the very first things I did when the book came out was look up how old their children are. As far as I can tell, the oldest of their 5 children is a daughter who is age 12. I was thinking today how it would feel as a 12 yo to have the boys teasing me (or soliciting) around the contents of that book…

    I identify with Grace in many ways but it really surprises me that someone who was sexually abused- as Grace was- could expose her children to this potential fallout. :(

    May the Lord protect those children!!!

  118. Charis,

    Actually, the Driscolls oldest child is around 14 years old. From what I understand Ashley Driscoll started blogging fairly recently (doing book reviews and such). Not sure how that’s going.

  119. Why do the pastors at SGM and MH use their kids as pawns? These leaders are nuts to put their children in the public like this. Oh, I forget, EVERYTHING gets put on the altar for the image of the father/celebrity pastor.

  120. Oh, I don’t think any of us see much problem with Ashley, Charis. :) It’s Driscoll’s evident willingness to co-opt his wife and daughter into the machinary of celebrity that is troubling. If Ashley wants to become a celebrity blogging teenage girl then, uh, okay. If anything she’ll probably end up being more careful and saying far fewer stupid things on record because she’s not her daddy. :)

  121. Eagle
    Frankie did turn his back on his father’s work. I heard that he converted to some form of Eastern Orthodoxy.

  122. The Eastern Orthodox don’t even think he’s necessarily one of them, either. Frankie has spent twenty years leaning on inflammatory polemics in books. In Crazy for God he wanted to convey that he pushed Francis back into right wing politics. Then post 2008 he blogged and wrote like his dad was a mastermind laying the ideological foundation for right wing Christian terrorists like Breivik. Dude, you can’t keep having it both ways all the time. I’ve read both Schaeffers and the guy who comes off as the incendiary thug more often isn’t the departed dad, it’s the son. Not that I necessarily agree with either about a lot of things but Frankie at this point only seems to have “I’m not my dad!” as his brand to sell. In my book that’s hardly an improvement of Driscoll’s old “I’m not some pansy ass therapist” from when Mars Hill first started off.

    Curiously, perhaps Driscoll and Frank Schaeffer may have some things in common then.

  123. WTH – I really liked Crazy for God – mainly because of Frank’s descriptions of Swiss L’Abri and growing up in Huémoz (the village where it’s located).

    I was there briefly in the late 70s, and thought it was an incredibly peculiar place in many ways, with some extremely quirky personalities. (Not meant negatively; it was just plain odd, though.) When I mentioned some of my observations to others (students and L’Abri staff) I was brushed off.

    Reading Frank’s account of some of the staff plus his descriptions of villagers was (I hate this term) “validating” for me. (btw, I did not meet his parents or anyone from his family except for Prisca and John, who are really delightful, warm people.)

    Even though Frank’s rants put me off, I *do* like his fiction (especially Portofino and Saving Grandma; Zermatt is much darker but probably worth the read if you’re interested in background…).

    the thing is, he says some crazy things and people think he’s gossiping about his family, but I read most all of his “revelations” about his family decades ago, in his mom’s books. She even talked about Francis’ sometimes violent temper.

  124. I don’t doubt the stuff about Francis’ temper and all. It’s just the post-2008 polemics from Frank I’ve found weird. I did enjoy reading Crazy for God and Frank has to have some awareness of his lesser qualities to share that his nickname was “the little @$%^ from Switzerland”!

  125. Oh believe me, there are tons of “Franky” stories in circulation – and he knows it.

    Agreed on his recent polemics as well. It’s almost as if he’s turned back into the guy who wrote Addicted to Mediocrity (et. al.).

  126. Except that now he’s stumping for Democrats instead of Republicans. Addicted to Mediocrity was too unfortunately a demonstration of the problem that seemed to be the focus of its own polemic. :(

  127. WTH
    I have tired of the politicization of the faith. First I had to deal with the young earthers who questioned my faith. Now I have to deal with Christians who think I am not a “good” Christian if I don’t support one of their chosen field. Last time I checked. Jesus did not address the age of the earth or the nuances of politics. Jesus was not an American.

  128. dee: I hear you. It’s so very very irritating when Christians put add-ons on what it takes to become a child of God. We all know the answer is faith in Jesus. So why do they say that you have to do what they do in order to be ‘truly saved’? Are they the Way, the Truth, and the Life, or is Christ?

    >_<

  129. Dee – Writing about L’Abri: I dunno. I wasn’t there for very long, and I went with a very idealized view of the place (which came directly from Edith Schaeffer’s book on it) and was quite disillusioned as a result. But I think that has happened to many people, not just me.

    And I don’t want to sound like I’m slamming the place, as there were some wonderful people there. It was just… odd.

  130. Voddie Baucham. Isn’t he the guy that said that older men leave their wives for younger women because they ‘yearn for attention for younger women’, but ‘God gave them daughters for that?’ — Anne

    As in “Incest Is Best”?

    Because that’s the vibe I get from that statement.

  131. It is, however, possible to physically hurt another person in ways that don’t show when that person is wearing everyday street clothes. (I wish I didn’t know that, believe me.) — numo

    Back when those polygs were in the news, a friend pointed out that those full-coverage Little House on the Prairie dresses were even better at hiding “the bruises you leave on the most common points to manhandle a woman”. Especially on the neck and wrists; the only exposed skin is the face and hands proper.

  132. I found the article mentioned above, The Church of Sex, so disturbing that I felt compelled to write a bit about it on my own site. I chose to include the disgusting pull quote because I wanted people to see it there and really see in writing what Driscoll is saying. It is appalling the burden he is placing on women.

    http://sallieborrink.com/et-cetera-22/

    Dee and Deb – Thank you for all the time and effort you put in here.

  133. HUG: It’s the vibe everyone got from that statement, but then he tried to cover it up by complaining that it’s not what he meant, it had been taken out of context (how do you take something like THAT out of context?) and critics were being mean to him. Then he redefined the word ‘attention’ to make him sound better.

  134. Sallie,

    I enjoyed reading your post! Thanks for the link.

    I don’t understand why there isn’t more outrage about Driscoll from the Christian community.

    I keep forgetting that Driscoll has a teenage daughter!

  135. Guest 72
    You know, if I can publish that picture, I could have readers send in captions for it. It could be rather funny. Do you know if that picture is copyrighted?

  136. Captions, yes, great idea….

    It came from Twitter,
    http://twitter.com/#!/zacharytthomas/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Flockerz.com%2Fs%2F190690165

    the sweatshirt is Mississippi State
    http://lockerz.com/s/190771109

    His Twitter acct is Scott Benjamin
    http://twitter.com/#!/scottbenj

    Pastor of theRefuge Church – Lakeland, TN
    http://www.therefugememphis.org/the_refuge/About-Us/Pastor-s-Corner.aspx

    An Acts 29 Network Church
    http://www.acts29network.org/church-detail/therefuge-church/

    A Mark Driscoll Church Planter apparatus….
    http://www.acts29network.org/about/leadership/
    http://www.acts29network.org/article/therefuge-church–arlington-tn/

    “After God saved me at the age of 30, He began to allow many opportunities in the church we attended. Eventually, my wife and I began teaching a Bible class for young married couples. God blessed that ministry there and we saw many young couples begin to come back to church and see that following Jesus was something that they had never experienced before. After a while, someone introduced me to Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church. I began to listen to Pastor Mark and had never heard someone preach and teach the Gospel as clearly and directly as he. This was about 4 years in to teaching our Bible class.

    After listening to Pastor Mark for nearly a year, I really sensed the pressing in of the Spirit to become a church planter. I though it was a horrible idea. I was not trained, I had a career, a wife and 4 children. Then, I thought maybe I just thought Pastor Mark was cool, and I wanted to be like him. I didn’t trust myself in this. Eventually, I responded by saying that I was willing to go and do whatever it was that God might want of me. I began to pray with 3 other men about this. For a year and a half, we prayed about this.

    Toward the end of that year and a half of praying, people began to come to me, speaking to me about how they believed that I should pursue becoming a pastor. Finally, two of the men that had been praying with me and I decided to attend a A29 Boot Camp in Seattle. We thought we should go and discern the call of God with men who are doing it.

    We went to the Seattle Boot camp in early 2009. After the first session when Pastor Mark spoke on the call of the planter, the Holy Spirit revealed more of what He had been at work doing in the time leading up to that point. Suddenly His work became very evident that God was indeed calling us to church planting.”

    So you can see he drinks the koolaid, as he started in teaching a Bible Study Class at Bellevue Baptist Church and was booted out by Steve Gaines. Something about his teaching on drinking in his Bible Study class got him in trouble.

    Sounds like a Public Figure to me.

  137. Steve
    This is a common, silly, boring comment that we see often from those who are supporters of Driscoll. Be a man and actually outline your concerns.

  138. Hey Steve,
    I’m not sex negative. I have four kids, for pete’s sake.

    But…
    I am sanctified Christian porn negative.
    I am “let’s embrace the present day porn culture and force our wives into acts they find demeaning by slapping a ‘thus saith the Lord’ on it for emphasis” negative.
    I am “Let’s NOT deal with our personal porn issues and how we hurt our wives with our porn issues and instead MAKE our wives embrace our porn issues as healthy and normal and even ‘godly’ so we don’t have give up our favorite idol, porn” negative.

    Get it straight dude. Cause you are all warped and crooked.

  139. For all the crazies writing comments on this blog, here are my thoughts:

    Mark is holding Grace’s hand tightly perhaps because he is comfortable speaking in front of large audiences, while she is not. Maybe it’s not abuse but love for his wife.

    Assuming you know the state of someone’s marriage that you have never met is pretty stupid, so I won’t bother responding to those comments.

    Mark has mentioned in sermons Ashley’s desire to be a writer, so why would he not encourage her passion and help give her a taste of it when he is in the position to do so. Book reviews are safe, so perhaps he is protecting his daughter too.

    I don’t know, maybe I am the crazy one.

  140. Joe,

    Ashley needs to refrain from writing anything that will permanently be recorded in the blogosphere until she is an adult.

    Looking forward to your commentary on the Petrys.

  141. What’s crazy is attempting to interpret body language on a television segment without considering that one is likely to reveal confirmation biases rather than interpret body language. One person may not look you in the eye through evasion or deception. Another person may not look you in the eye as an expression of deference or respect. Another person may not look you in the eye only because you’re not looking at the eye is really looking you in the eye and are, instead, looking at the misaligned eye that can’t focus on you. There are too many variables to claim anyone can interpret body language and non-verbal communication in a uniform way. Even the unidigital salute isn’t the same in every culture, as I’m sure many people know. :)

  142. Joe
    Now wait just one minute. You said you have no relationship to Mars Hill ad now it is “Mark”this and “Ashley” that. You are telling us a whopper. Who told you to comment here? And as for crazies…you, sir, are a condescending, untruthful bore.

  143. Joe,

    “For all the crazies writing comments on this blog”

    Thank you for becoming one of the crazy commenters here at TWW.

    We both saw the same video of a couple holding hands. You feel free to share your thoughts on the matter, just like I did. I may be wrong about what I see on the video. You may be right.

    You say: “Assuming you know the state of someone’s marriage that you have never met is pretty stupid”

    Either you have met the Driscolls and are able to say, “Maybe it’s not abuse but love for his wife”, or you are assuming.

    Which one is it? I am too crazy to figure it out ;)

    Heather

  144. Heather
    I am now convinced that Joe is part of the machine that is Mars Hill. Note that everyone who is not MH is crazy. Driscoll and his wife are just a normal loving couple. This is a concerted effort to demonize those who disagree. It will be unsuccessful. The Petrys have put the frame on the issue and the emperor has no clothes which, with Driscoll’s penchant for talking all things sexual, seems appropriate.

    Joe is also threatening us, ala certain tactics well outlined in the Petrys account. He has learned how to be a Christian well.

  145. WTH
    One of the moderators (Barbara Walters) actually remarked on the hand grip. She is well versed in gestures people use since she has done this all her life. It seemed odd to her.

  146. Joe
    One further warning-cut the nonsense. For some guy wanting to give your idol all the benefit of doubt, you then call ALL the people who comment here “crazy.” Frankly, there is something amiss here. Why are you getting so bent out of shape? This is very personal and I think it worries you when people disagree with you point of view, especially if it is tied up in you investing your life into something that is being called into question.

    If you are truly secure in who you are, this should not be causing this sort of reaction. Please do some self-assessment. If you feeing of worth is tied up in an institution or a man, such will always fail you. Instead, focus on Jesus. He will never let you down.

    May God grant you the peace that passes all understanding.

  147. Ladies-

    Maybe I am crazy, but I think it’s ridiculous to assume so much about one couple’s marriage from a 5 minute video clip. Would those of you who are married post a clip of you and your spouse and say it’s not absurd for random people to analyze your hand holding or gestures? That’s what I am saying, so no Dee I am not demonizing all of you or threatening you, but giving you a counter position to the strange claims being made. WTH stated my argument in another way. I am not professing to know anymore than you about said couple, but am simply raising a counter argument. It’s sure easier to use their name than to call them Driscoll 1, Driscoll 2 and Driscoll 3 don’t you think?

    Dee, here it is one more time. I am not a member of Mars Hill, nor have I ever been. I do not work for Mars Hill, Acts 29 or any other related organization, nor have I ever. I get that it frustrates you that there is some Christian dude unaffiliated with MH that doesn’t see things the same way you do. That’s life. I’m sure you understand from your journalism work that op-ed pieces don’t always result in everyone agreeing. Same thing is going on here with your blog.

    Honestly Dee you don’t know me, so trying to analyze my motives, thoughts or sin is also pretty absurd. I don’t have to comment on this blog and I could leave it for weeks, as I recently did and my life would keep on going just fine. Your last paragraph is good advice if it were given to the right person. Just my thoughts, so take them or leave them.

  148. Joe
    You only show up in “crisis’ situations at Mars Hill. So, you do leave and come back, now with the Petrys. I still do not buy your protestations. There is a reason you are showing up for Driscoll and not for Mahaney, Piper, et al.

    It was you who called all those who comment here “crazies.” That says all I need to know about you.

  149. Joe

    Just to let you know, the analysis made of Mark and Grace’s marriage is NOT based on one five-minute video clip. It’s based on years of listening to Mark and getting to know his attitudes and behaviors through listening to him. It’s also based on a recently published book which outlines in detail the story of their marriage.

    Although the Driscolls’ marriage is better now than it was then, it’s clear in the book that Mark makes almost no acknowledgement of his own sins within the stormy phase. He pinpoints the blame on Grace most of the time, with a severe lack of humility, compassion, and self-awareness.

    Frankly, his insistence on getting different kinds of sex makes him sound very selfish, especially since he never stopped to ask Grace if her problems with intimacy were because of an inner wound (they were). Instead, he just complained and demanded and calls her a ‘selfish lover’. This is another clue to us thinking he is a bully, and perhaps a bully towards his own wife, too. Remember, he showed little remorse in the book.

  150. Mark Driscoll: “Marriage = Friendship + Fringe Benefits?”

    What?

    It would appear that talk is spreading this week (April 14) from woman to woman at the campus of Liberty University.  It seems that Liberty University students are being overheard saying that Mark Driscoll’s new marriage book is conveying to them the idea that Marriage = Friendship + Fringe Benefits. 

    Huh?

    Some are even conveying the feeling that this type of emphasis is considered by them, to be a big turn-off.

    Do you think that just maybe Mark Driscoll needs to return to the university and brush up on his math skills?

    Or is the ‘problem’ much more ‘pro-nounced’ ?

    hmmm…

    Sopy ㋡ 
    ___
    Lauryn Hill – “His eyes are on the sparrow”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Pk5YMkEcg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  151. Dear person who wrote this article,
    You seem to be either A. extremely jealous of the Driscolls
    or B. have an extreme hatred for them. or C. Both A and B Hmmm, either one of those would rightly classify you as a mean, bitter, judgemental person. It’s really sad that you’ve focused so much of your time and energy hatin’ on the Driscoll family. No really, I actually feel bad for you. As for your rude and tacky remarks, of course nothing they say is going to be perfect, they are on national television together, being broadcasted live, for the first time, for Pete’s sake! Half of the ladies in the room were glaring at them the entire time. How would you feel? I thought they handled themselves very well. I am atheist myself, but I just think you are ridiculous for believing yourself to be superior to the Driscolls in any way, shape, or form. I mean come on now, how prideful and puffed up with yourself can you get!? GET OVER YOURSELF!
    Sincerely, girl who will never read anything from you ever again, seeing as how you sound like a gossipy old lady!