9/11- Confusing Christian Responses

“Now, we have inscribed a new memory alongside those others. It’s a memory of tragedy and shock, of loss and mourning. But not only of loss and mourning. It’s also a memory of bravery and self-sacrifice, and the love that lays down its life for a friend–even a friend whose name it never knew. “ George W. Bush

 

courtesy of us governemnt

Pentagon after the attacks

 

I am startled by the hubris of Christians who purport to know the mind of God when disaster strikes. Some Christians claim to believe in grace but revert back to Old Testament covenants with its rules and regulations at the drop of a hat. As soon as a disaster strikes, well-known Christians take over the media, announcing God's judgment on a nation, a group of people or even a state. I remember Anne Graham Lotz declaring that 9/11 was God's judgment on America for not following Him. I remember thinking, is this God's judgment on America? Why not the Netherlands, Sweden or even Afghanistan? Talk about countries which have drifted from God!

We seem to be locked into an old covenant that goes something like this. If you follow God's commandments, He will send rain for your crops. If you don't, you will get rings through your noses and be marched off to captivity in a pagan land. But, weren't these covenants to demonstrate that we couldn't keep God's commandments perfectly? And isn't that why Jesus came? Aren't we forgiven?

Yet, confronted with sin in the world, we revert right back to God in punishment mode. Yep, Jesus forgave you but God is still really mad at you and He is going to get you. Christianity Today, 9/2011,  features Christian leaders who shared how they have changed since 9/11. On page 29, we find some thoughts of Anne Graham Lotz. Her assessment has not changed. 9/11 is God's judgment on us.

  • "All I knew that God was attempting to get the attention of his people, including me."
  • "I also saw a humiliating vision of my own sin." 
  • "I spent days on my face before God, confessing my sin and receiving his cleansing.
  • "From Hurricane Katrina to the record breaking floods, forest fires, tornadoes, droughts,and snow storms; to the collapse of major financial institutions,to the economic recession, to the inability to win the war in Afghanistan. The alarm keeps resounding because so many people have not heeded, or even heard, the warning."

 So God destroyed the Twin Towers and killed thousands of people to get Anne's attention? Then why hasn't He done something about the countries that turn their backs on sex slaves or other countries that practice genocide. How about the secularization of the vast population of Europe? 

Did it ever occur to folks that bad things happen because we live in a fallen world and we suffer the consequences?  Sometimes that is the reason that bad things happen. For example, back in the early part of the last century,  the Dust Bowl devastated America's crops while the Great Depression flung people into poverty. Yet, there were fewer secularists back then.

There is great danger to tying bad things to God's punishment. Was God punishing my 3 year old daughter by giving her a brain tumor? Maybe He was trying to let her know that she is a sinner? Are we to live in fear that, when we forget our quiet time and get impatient with our kids, God is going to send down a snow storm or an earthquake or a fatal illness?  Are America's sins truly worse than those of other countries? Is America supposed to be viewed as today's "Promised Land," complete with covenants, etc.?

One other thought. before we get to the main story. Why is it that we "know" we are living in the End times? Ever since Hal Lindsey's The Late, Great Planet Earth, everyone has become an expert on the "signs" of the End times. Few stop to examine the theology of eschatology. It's far more fun to play "name the AntiChrist du jour."

 In my lifetime, there have been a number of Christian leaders who have stated that we are living in the end times. I have heard people claim that the following people were the AntiChrist: The Pope (all of them since the 1960s), Henry Kissinger, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Kofi Annan, Fidel Castor, Mao Tse Tung, Saddam Hussain, Barack Obama, Hilary Clinton, and on and on. And just about every Christian claims to "know" we are in the "Last Days." As Eagle's thoughts will demonstrate, this can lead to very bad theology.

In an online post at Christianity Today, here, Lotz is quoted as saying:


"Lotz told The Christian Post in an interview this week that she wants Americans to realise how far they have pushed Jesus out of their government, schools, and personal lives.“It is time to repent and invite God back into our lives,” Lotz said.

“The signs that Jesus gave us in the Bible and the headlines in the news are coming together in a dramatically sobering way.”

Lotz, now 63, says she profoundly believes that if she lives out her natural life, she will live to see the physical return of Jesus to earth."

 

With this introduction in mind, TWW presents to you a post written by Eagle, a commenter on this blog. He came to us by way of the wonderful The Internet Monk, which beat us to the punch and published this a couple of days ago. However, both Eagle and Chaplain Mike were gracious and gave us permission to reprint this here. Eagle is currently an agnostic, after having spent some time in evangelical circles. He is a deeply thoughtful man who honestly explores his questions about faith. He is deeply empathetic and is the type of man you would want to have as your friend. His view of some Christians on 9/11 is both illuminating and painful. I suspect it will garner quite a few comments.

 

By Eagle:

I want to make you aware of a neat and limited exhibit at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History that is worth your visit if you live in the area or will be visiting it in the next week. The exhibit is about September 11, showing some personal artifacts from the disaster in Pennsylvania, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Centers.

As a heads up, the exhibit is popular and the line was long today. I wanted this to be a morning event; instead it turned into a day-long event. I waited about an hour and a half to get in. So if you want to see it, get there early. It’s open from 11:00 to 3:00 from now until September 11, 2011. The other part of the show dealt with how the news media covered the event and how historians are preserving it. It’s a good exhibit, albeit heavy.
The final part is an interactive where you are asked to record what you were doing on September 11, 2001 — How did you hear the news? What does September 11 mean to you? I sat there at a table and decided to write down the story an acquaintance who worked at the Pentagon told me about how he had the day off from the part of the building that was hit. I also wrote how my grandmother told me that September 11 was similar to Pearl Harbor for her. When my grandmother passed away in October 2009 at 100 she was almost like a history book. She remembered being a kid, 8 or 9 and people celebrating the end of World War I. I loved talking with her because of this….

I put down those memories of 9/11….

What I didn’t put down was my experience as an evangelical/fundamentalist on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, and seeing how some evangelicals responded to the event, in comparison to the Catholics and non-evangelicals that I knew. I elected not to put that down because in all honesty I wish I could just forget about some of it.

But here is the other part of how I remember September 11:

I had that Tuesday morning off, as I had grad classes at Marquette University in Milwaukee. Everything had happened by the time I had heard. Up late the previous night, I slept in and was getting ready when my Mom called. “We’ve been attacked!” she screamed. I didn’t know what she was referring to and turned on the TV. I was shocked, just shocked, by the replay of images on the television screen. I couldn’t believe I was watching a plane fly into a skyscraper.

I left my apartment and looked at how things were on Marquette. I saw that the line to give blood was lengthy at the Blood Bank and winding down Wisconsin Ave, the main avenue in downtown Milwaukee. Marquette had counselors available in the student section with people glued to the TVs and I saw that they were going to have a special mass due to the occasion at the Church of the Gesu on Wisconsin Ave.

I came back to my apartment and had a flier at my door saying that due to the days events Marquette University was closing for the day. Due to my frame of mind I wouldn’t have gone to a Catholic service but due to the events I just felt like I should go to church. I did so that afternoon. A couple of Marquette students were protesting outside the church “No Blood For Oil” as I remember one person holding up a sign. The church was packed. Many people there were in shock, upset or disbelief. As I recall I could tell that some had been crying. The mass started and the priest went through the Catholic service. I don’t remember fully what he said, what I do recall was that he started out by talking about how our generation had their “JFK assassination” event, and that the terrorist attacks were of the same size and scope of the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. The atmosphere was one of grief, sadness and mourning.

Next I buzzed off to Family Christian Stores in Mayfair to pick up the Michael W Smith CD on Worship which was released on September 11, 2001. Crazy I know….

The experience in the Jesuit Catholic Church service contrasted with my experience in Campus Crusade for Christ that Tuesday evening of September 11, 2001. I remember walking into the Student Union and then into the room where Crusade was. My staff director was almost giddy and talked about how his wife was watching TV when the other plane flew into the other World Trade Center Tower. Another student leader for Campus Crusade told me, “Dave, the End Times are here….and the rapture is going to happen soon! When it does happen I want to be in a skyscraper so I can fly into the air and be with Jesus!”

The atmosphere in that room within Campus Crusade was starkly different than the atmosphere in the Gesu Jesuit Church I was in several hours earlier. (Dare I say this….?) But it seemed that some evangelicals were almost elated that September 11 occurred as they thought it would “hasten” the End Times Prophecy. And sadly I have to confess that due to my state of mind I went along and it didn’t bother me at the time like it does greatly today. I don’t remember a lot of mourning or ability to empathize. Instead it seemed is if there was this subtle “joy” from many people caught up in placing End Times events in a historical and Biblical perspective.
I didn’t want to write that down and leave that on the Smithsonian record. Truth be told I wish I could forget being involved in fundamentalist theology and seeing their reaction that day.

I was thinking about this earlier at the Smithsonian exhibit and I called my dad to ask him this afternoon about how he heard the news about JFK being assassinated and what he was doing. He told me the story of what it was like to be on his Surgical Internship at Duke University on November 22, 1963 when President Kennedy was assassinated. My dad’s internship was with the Urology Department and he worked with a number of Baptists. When the news came in about Kennedy being killed in Dallas dad, who was Irish Catholic, was shocked. What distressed and discouraged him more was watching his Baptist co-workers be happy that a Catholic was killed because they didn’t want one in the White House. One person told dad it was “about time” that someone took him out. As a Catholic, my dad still struggles with Baptists and other evangelicals because he can’t comprehend why anyone would be happy about the death of another person.

Isn’t Christianity just lovely?

 

This following song is sent out to all of you who have been hurt and wonder if it is all worth it. This is also for those who lost loved ones in 9/11. May God's peace be with you always.

 

 

 

 

Lydia's Corner: 2 Kings 18:13-19:37 Acts 21:1-17 Psalm 149:1-9 Proverbs 18:8

Comments

9/11- Confusing Christian Responses — 86 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee – thanks to you and Eagle for publishing his comment.

    I lived and worked less than 4 miles from the Pentagon at that time. Although I did not know anyone who died in D.C., PA or NYC, everyone was affected.

    Did you know that there were school children from a poor section of D.c. on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon? They were traveling with several teachers to a conference that was sponsored by National Geographic magazine.

    This disaster cut across ethnic, religious, economic and class lines.

    And the aftermath… threats and attacks(face-to-face verbal & physical, via phone, vandalism, etc.) against people who looked “wrong” and who were abused – even murdered – by furious people seeking a target of their own. (A Sikh man who lives in AZ – and who lost 2 of his brothers in post-9/11 murders – has just published a book about his experience – and forgiveness. Can’t recall the title, but I’m sure Google will turn it up.)

    How do all of these things fit in the “theodicy” scheme preached and believed by many?

    (And why does this wrathful OT-type God not vent his wrath on people who despoil natural resources, on people who abuse the “least of these” – the poor – in all kinds of ways? What about the US citizens with fat Swiss bank accounts from their involvement in organized crime – from hit man to business executive? Why didn’t the junk bond traders get “zapped”?…. I could go on, but you’ve already said it better than I have in this comment.)

    About those kids I mentioned above: I try not to think about them. It’s just too hard.

    (fwiw, I had my TV turned off for almost 2 months after 9/11. Am not a big TV watcher to begin with, but the endless repetition of footage of the attacks and immediate aftermath was NOT something I wanted to expose myself too – I was shell-shocked enough without those images being burned into my brain.)


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    The Sikh author I just mentioned is named Rana Sodhi, and his book is titled Patriot Acts.

    There’s a good, long excerpt from it here: http://www.salon.com/books/2011/09/07/voice_of_witness_rona/index.html (to those who might not like the hosting site – their “books” section is really well-run, and the text at the link is definitely worth reading. Please do click.)


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    Oops! My bad – Singh Sodhi’s story is in an anthology. the info. is at the bottom of the piece.


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    As someone who grew up in the SBC and attended a church for years that was affiliated with the SBC, the reaction of many evangelicals, I’m sorry to say, is not a witness for their faith. Well it might be for their true personal faith but not for the faith they claim to proclaim.

    And this reaction makes it hard for me to congregate with so many of my supposed brethren.

    And in many ways this is exactly the basis of what Michael Spencer was trying to say with . And a large part of why his wife converted to the RCC.


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    Lotz, now 63, says she profoundly believes that if she lives out her natural life, she will live to see the physical return of Jesus to earth.”

    Ugh, didn’t she live through the Late Great/Rapture Frenzy of the seventies like i did? Statements like this make evangelicals lose their credibility. Study the Watchtower theology, its origins, and how its literature pieces together Scriptures to deduce its prophetic speculations/chronology. If you grew up with the eschatology i did, you’ll see remarkable similarities!


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    Just a comment…of COURSE she will live out her natural life…what else can you do with it? Even if she is hit by a car, it’s still a “natural” event…unless of course it’s being driven by that little Geico Gecko I suppose…that might qualify as supernatural.


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    Thanks for r-posting the article by “Eagle”. But more, thanks for your intro! I think you and Deb should start a counseling blog for Believers who are struggling with their faith. Struggling with the current state of affairs in the evangelical world. There just don’t seem to be many sane voices out there in the world of things spiritual/Godly, but I feel that the two of you are. Thanks!

    I’m sorry for “Eagle”. I too struggle at times with responses by folks in the news, those running for president, those who have a public pulpit from which to spew their poison. I’m glad there are folks (dare I say “WOMEN”?), who can speak truth and compassion into a world of anger and hate.


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    jack allen on Fri, Sep 09 2011 at 10:04 pm
    Thanks for r-posting the article by “Eagle”. But more, thanks for your intro! I think you and Deb should start a counseling blog for Believers who are struggling with their faith. Struggling with the current state of affairs in the evangelical world.

    I think that’s a big part of what TWW already is.


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    I feel for anyone who was exposed to the kind of nonsensical (and unChristian) behavior that Eagle encountered from his evangelical group on 9/11. I’ve been around many hundreds, thousands really, of evangelical Christians before, during, and after the events of 9/11, and I’ve never encountered anyone who acted anything other than horrified, grief-stricken, sickened, and numb at the events of that day.

    The responses I saw on and just after 9/11 were shock, pain, fear, and then compassion, unity, and patriotism. I was saddened by the events, but, as a whole, looking back I am pleased and humbled by the responses I witnessed that day, especially in the very conservative evangelical church of which I was a member at the time.

    I’ve heard some famous preacher-types make comments like those made by Lotz at this and other tragic events, but I’ve never heard anyone I knew personally, preacher or not, who treated 9/11 like some sort of joyous indication that the return of Jesus was near. Had they done so I would likely have not spoken very kindly to them in response.

    I don’t know what brand of “Christians” the folks Eagle was around on 9/11, but I can say with certainty that their response was indicative of some sort of sick mental pathology that has nothing to do with genuine Christianity, and it was not typical of the many, many evangelicals I have known.


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    Believers in god/gods constantly claim knowledge about the will & thoughts & intentions of a supposed “all-knowing” and “all-powerful” being who is “everywhere at once” but in the same breath state that we, as plain ol’ humans, can’t possibly know the intentions of god or why he does what he does. Anyone with a fraction of intellectual integrity and even a toe in the pool of reality sees the contradiction. Why do you continue to fill your brains with and run your lives and the lives of your children according to the explanations of people who existed literally thousands of years ago who had absolutely no understanding of the natural world? Don’t you realize that every time you utilize what science/man has done you are disavowing the validity & capability of your god? Every time you go to the doctor. Every time you watch a weather forecast. Every time you enter a building (instead of a cave). Every time you utilize technology…telephone, computer, electricity, light bulbs, airplanes, automobiles, ovens, septic systems, etc. Every time you go to the grocery store. Every time you ride on the coattails of those who came before you who had the intelligence and fortitude to invent, create, solve, observe and change the status quo for the betterment of every human you are telling your “master” that, while you believe in him implicitly and faithfully and without question, you cannot (because of overwhelming proof to the contrary) trust him to take care of you like a real father would…doing absolutely everything he could to protect his children from misery and harm and pain and especially death.


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    Jack Allen
    Thank you for your kind comments. I think that most Christians could stand to ask more questions than answer all questions.


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    Junkster
    Thank you as well.


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    Junkster

    I have bumped into these types of Christians. I remember people who spread rumors that Proctor and Gamble execs were Satan worshippers. I have heard them extoll hucksters like Benny Hinn (and these attend “good” churches). I had a mega church pastor tell me I was assaulting the character of Gray Ezzo by raising concerns abut his methods. I was harassed by a bunch of YE nut-jobs for sponsoring a debate. I have been present when Christians spoke about 911 just like Lotz. And other Christians accusing the Pope of being the antiChrist. Then there are the Mahaney’s and the Driscolls.

    Of course, I have seen kind Christians as well.Christians who would give you the shirt off their backs. You are one of them. But so many want to hide the problems. I say we need to open the doors of the church, let the light shine on us, both the good and bad , and then offer the Son of Man as our solution. As my pastor says, the Christian walk is chronically beset by our sin. It will be that way until we go home. That is why we need jesus. But so many times we accept Jesus and then believe that we are now somehow better than everyone else.We need to admit it instead of pointing the finger at the rest of the world as being screwed up. The finger needs to be pointed both ways.


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    Donna Clark said: “Don’t you realize that every time you utilize what science/man has done you are disavowing the validity & capability of your god?”

    Surely you know, Donna, that the very concept of science — that the world is orderly and follows basic rules that can be consistently relied and relied upon — is a product of a biblical / Judeo-Christian understanding of the universe?

    There would be none of the advances of science and technology if it were not for this fundamental Christian worldview which dominates Western thought. And those parts of the world which are not as influenced by that worldview are the same which lack the advances that resulted from it. Modern medicine, science and technology didn’t come along where people believed in elves and fairies and tree gods who controlled their daily lives; they came as a result of the biblical view that an intelligent and orderly God created and ordered the world to mirror his own intelligence and order.

    The major advances of Western civilization are undergirded by a Christian worldview.


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    Dee,
    Oh, yes, I’ve definitely seen my share of ignorance and wrong behavior from Christians — probably not more than from unbelievers, but as followers of Christ, our standards ought to be God’s standards. So we definitely need to point out, discuss, and seek to correct things that aren’t right in churches, whether they be the result of ignorance or intentional.

    I love TWW for providing this forum and bringing these things to light. It is my hope that, as believers, we would see the things that are wrong in our churches as opportunities to improve and to build each other up.

    But the goal of those who do not believe is often to tear down the faith of others. So I think we ought to take the opportunity to make plain to unbelievers (including those who have walked away from the faith because of their negative experiences) that the errors of Christians are not indicative of inherent error in Christianity. The sins of Christians are not evidence against the truth of Christianity; they only serve to show that we Christians need the same Savior whom we proclaim that others need to embrace.


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    Donna

    First let me welcome you to this blog. We appreciate that you have taken time out of your evening to not only read, but to comment here. Thank you.

    I can understand your perspective. But, are you not being a bit overly self assured in how you view those of us who are God followers?

    You said “Anyone with a fraction of intellectual integrity and even a toe in the pool of reality sees the contradiction.” Do you really mean to say that all scientists, such as the great Francis Colllns, have no intellectual integrity? Do you mean to say that all people throughout all time who have believed in God are not in touch with reality? Goodness! The vast majority of all Americans believe in God. So, have all these people left reality and live in the Matrix? Yet, somehow you know this personally? Interesting.

    You said “Every time you watch a weather forecast. Every time you enter a building (instead of a cave). Every time you utilize technology…telephone, computer, electricity, light bulbs, airplanes, automobiles, ovens, septic systems, etc. Every time you go to the grocery store. Every time you ride on the coattails of those who came before you who had the intelligence and fortitude to invent, create, solve, observe and change the status quo for the betterment of every human”

    I might point out to you that many of those people who came before, in fact, most of those people were believers in God. They are doing just what those who are created in the Imago Dei do-they are co-creators in His world, discovering those things that are here on this planet for our betterment. So, all of these inventors and discoverers who were God believers had no intellectual integrity and were out of touch with reality? Are you implying a mass psychoses that has infected the human mind throughout the millennia that you have somehow escaped? Such a belief, in itself, might seem a little overreaching.

    You said “you cannot (because of overwhelming proof to the contrary) trust him to take care of you like a real father would…doing absolutely everything he could to protect his children from misery and harm and pain and especially death.”

    Firstly, if the proof were so overwhelming, than why isn’t atheism the predominant belief system in the world? And what about death? According to our Scriptures, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortality. So, is death permanent or merely a change in address? I think you would say it is a permanent state of being, the end of existence. You return to the stars and dissolve.

    I think differently. I believe we dream of eternity because we were made for eternity. We have something in us that points us to something more. But perhaps you are one of those people who have not experienced such a longing. If so, you assuredness is understandable.

    Let me leave you with this quote to ponder. I think you have fallen into the trap of thinking of this world as the be all and end all. But, I believe and so have the vast majority of people throughout time that there is “something more.” And ,if that is the case, we are something much, much more.

    “It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would strongly be tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal.”— C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory


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    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal.”— C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

    Love it! Thanks, Dee, for sharing.


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    Junkster

    The reason that most of the people over at ExChristians have walked away from the faith is not do to Christians acting badly. That was one of my preconceptions that was pretty well shot down over years of reading. In fact, it is the questions that have not been answered that causes folks to walk. i know you will not like to hear this but many of them point to an insistence on YE as a major reason. Just this week, one of the antitestimonies pointed this out as the main reason for walking out.

    Many others did not get adequate answers to many of the incidents in the Old Testament-such as the the seeming willingness of God to wipe out whole societies down to the infants, children and animals. I have found that most Christians shy away from these difficulties instead of dealing with them head on.

    And, if my experience is any indications, it was not until I found out that (the woman at the well story) addendum 9/10-I was not thinking-I meant the woman caught in adultery-special thanks to Lin for picking this up- is not present in the earliest manuscripts that I began a journey to explore and find answers to the hardest question in the Bible. It is many of those types of questions that cause people to walk out when they are told to “trust God” instead of being given the tools to wrestle with them.

    As i have talked with these folks, i became convinced that the Bible is not being taught in such a way that people with intellectual curiosity are receiving meaningful answers.

    And when we don’t give reasoned answers, these folks walk away from the faith and then go after us for our lightweight theology and our seeming willingness to run away from their harsh questions. Many of them are no more harsh than self assured Christians like Mac Brunson or Paige Patterson who go after their own.

    I believe we must listen very carefully and persevere with the harshest of critics. And as Jesus did, pay back their anger with love. I still remember reading about Richard Wurmbrand(?sp) who was imprisoned for his faith during the time of strict Communism. When asked how he could be so kind to those who tormented him he said that Christians are like flowers. When you crush a flower, it rewards you with its perfume. When you crush a Christian, he rewards you by giving you his love.
    We must confront our accusers as Jesus “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” I am trying to learn this lesson but it is hard.

    One of the most interesting experiences that i had while spending time at ExChristians was with a fellow Christian. This Christian came on, and as happens most of the time, was insulted with every attempt he made to communicate. Finally, he broke down and starting giving them grief back, reminding them that they would go to hell if they didn’t accept Jesus.

    I responded to him and told him to be kind and to answer their questions in a reasoned manner. I also suggested that since he was getting so upset, he might need to go and talk to his pastor about how he was expressing himself. He complained back to me that I was ignoring their gross misconduct and language in response to his attempts so why was I fussing at him.

    I said “It is really quite simple. You have the Hoy Spirit, they do not. You have no excuse.”

    We must be long-suffering. Sometimes one book on “How to witness to an atheist” does not provide more than the “snappy” comebacks. They have already heard them. Usually, we have to listen and try over a long period of time. But far too many are willing to brush the dust of their feet and go onto the next attempt. I say, take you time. Get to know them and take the abuse. With God’s help, you can outlast them!


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    Dee,
    Among hard core atheists or others who might frequent exChristians.net, a failure of Christians to address intellectual concerns or questions is likely to be a major factor in their denial of the faith the once professed. Many people have also walked away from their churches and beliefs because of mistreatment they received from others in churches, but they might not be the primary participants on sites like exChristians.net. I don’t know the statistics to know which groups is greater in number, but, either way, plenty of blame can be laid against Christians for those who walk away.

    You said, “I know you will not like to hear this but many of them point to an insistence on YE as a major reason.

    Why would you think I wouldn’t want to hear that? I am not an advocate for the scientific claims of YE, and I have made that plain over and over on in my comments on this site. I have merely stated that the theological concerns raised by those who hold to a more literal interpretation of Genesis need to be taken seriously and seriously addressed, especially the theological ramifications of any view that denies the historicity of Adam and Eve as real individuals.. I’ve also stated numerous times that there are potential approaches to addressing those issues in an OE framework. So please don’t imply that I have any reason to deny the concerns expressed by unbelievers about the impact of YE views of science.

    I agree with the rest of what you said. We should be as compassionate and longsuffering toward those who have lost their way as Christ Himself was when on Earth, and as He remains in dealing with each of us today. And we must recognize that their questions and concerns and doubts matter to them, which means they matter to God. He does not dismiss them, so neither should we.

    However, I still maintain that we need to be aware that there’s a difference of intent and effect when we, as Christians, criticize things that are wrong in Christianity, and when unbelievers do so. They may share our concerns about attitudes and actions (and ignorance) that cause problems in churches. But unbelievers are not motivated by a desire to see the church strengthened and improved. At best they don’t much care what happens to the church; at worst they want to see it torn down and replaced with their own ideas and preferences. We must not let our compassion for those outside of Christ to blind us to the truth that they do not love us or our Savior or His church like we are called to love them.


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    “The reason that most of the people over at ExChristians have walked away from the faith is not do to Christians acting badly…In fact, it is the questions that have not been answered that causes folks to walk…Many others did not get adequate answers to many of the incidents in the Old Testament-such as the the seeming willingness of God to wipe out whole societies down to the infants, children and animals. I have found that most Christians shy away from these difficulties instead of dealing with them head on.”

    Yes. This. While I haven’t actually walked away from Christianity (yet), I’m pretty close to doing so. While my experience in authoritarian abusive churches has made it difficult for me to attend church, it is to things in the Bible itself (specifically, the things that God commanded) and the inability of Christians to answer any of them that has made me practically an atheist.

    “As i have talked with these folks, i became convinced that the Bible is not being taught in such a way that people with intellectual curiosity are receiving meaningful answers.”

    Or, worse, they are forbidden from even (verbally) asking questions in the first place!


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    Eagle @1:28…FUNNY, but sad to think that people are still so blind and hateful!
    Dee, you’re welcome! And thank you. I don’t think y’all know the ministry that you truly have to so many! People like me, and Donna.
    Donna, thanks for expressing thoughts and frustrations that so many have, even Believers. Keep asking and seeking. I’m not sure you’ll ever get the answers you want or need, but keep trying. There are so many questions that I’d like to ask, but too many people would immediately erase my name from the “Lambs Book of Life”. And I’m not ready for that yet!
    Thanks again TWW ladies, professors, PASTORS!!! Jesus has a special place in His heart for women like you!!


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    A) I do agree with Junkster’s perspective on unbelievers. (Sorry junkster).

    B) I, for one, can’t fully understand the will of God but I have always thought that if the Twin Towers represented anything in our world, they represented our pursuit of materialism and wealth – the TRUE god of our time. And the towers which surely represented what human could produce (marvelous structures actually), were ruble within minutes.

    God moves in mysterious ways.


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    “if the Twin Towers represented anything in our world, they represented our pursuit of materialism and wealth”

    I have trouble with this logic. Why not the twin towers in Malaysia?

    How about almost anything in Vegas related to gambling and conventions. Have you ever been there? Makes NYC look like Mayberry.

    What about our sports complexes? Those hugely expensive facilities we build and use maybe 10 time a year to stage our modern day equivalents to the spectacles of ancient Rome. Only 4 or 5 times per year if you count some of the larger NASCAR tracks. Or Indy.


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    Eagle said:
    “The other day I read an article by John Piper in which he said that men should not receive counsel from women as they should not be in a place of authority. So here’s the question I have…

    Should I

    A. Dialog with either Deb and Dee as a male knowing that I would be going against church teaching?
    B. Stay an agnostic and just live out my days questioning the need for God and walking into “hell” that way.

    Which is the bigger heresy?”

    Eagle,

    When I read what you wrote, it jogged my memory…

    Around 4 or 5 years ago I attended the SEBTS Presidential Forum, and Dr. Danny Akin addressed a question along these lines:

    “Can a woman teach a man?” (or something to that effect)

    Dr. Akin’s response was: “Well, she can if he’s lost.”

    So there you have it. A Christian woman can teach a man who is not a believer, but the moment he becomes a Christian, she can no longer teach him anything.

    Does that make ANY sense?


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    Jack Allen said:
    “I think you and Deb should start a counseling blog for Believers who are struggling with their faith. Struggling with the current state of affairs in the evangelical world. There just don’t seem to be many sane voices out there in the world of things spiritual/Godly, but I feel that the two of you are. Thanks!”

    Jack,

    Your comment really blessed me. As Junkster pointed out, that’s what we are attempting to do here at TWW. When we started the blog 2-1/2 years ago, we thought we would just focus on Christian news issues, but we soon discovered that there are a lot of hurting people out there, many who have been spiritually abused by those whom God has charged to care for them.

    Hopefully, we are making a difference through the topics we are discussing in this forum.


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    @ Amanda

    You may find the following website interesting and useful http://www.christian-thinktank.com. It contains a lot of questions people have about what is in the Bible and a lot of care and research (backed with references) have gone into the answers.


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    While this site looks somewhat interesting I feel it is more of a “preaching to the choir” than a useful site for non believers.

    My opinion.


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    Lynn

    We merely set up the discussion and let the chips fall where they may. However, let me assure you that we are grateful for each and every person who take time out of their day to read and/or comment.

    Maybe it is for Deb and me that the site exists because my heart is touched each and every day by people who stop by for a moment. As I fall asleep each night, I think over the day and pray for those I have met here and also pray that what we say will resonate in the hearts of a few.

    Just know this, atheists are welcome, especially by your glamorous blog queens.


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    The question that I have for all of those who make statements about God’s judgement when disaster happens is this.

    Would you make the same statement if you were a: Coptic Christian in Egypt? A woman Christian in a small Pakistani village? A Christian in East Timor during the struggles with Indonesia?


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    The fear of G-d is the beginning of wisdom.


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    “And, if my experience is any indications, it was not until I found out the the woman at the well story is not present in the earliest manuscripts that I began a journey to explore and find answers to the hardest question in the Bible. It is many of those types of questions that cause people to walk out when they are told to “trust God” instead of being given the tools to wrestle with them.”

    Yikes, I had not heard about this. Are you sure you are not confusing the Samaritan woman at the well with the “woman caught in adultery” in Luke 6?

    The conversation Jesus has with the woman at the well is so very important to us about “worshiping in spirit and truth” and the fact it was a more intellectual convo than the one Jesus had with Nicodemus!

    BTW: I often wonder what people like Ann Lotz, Pat Robertson, John Piper do with Luke 13. Jesus speaks to this very subject when they ask if the people of those tragedies were being punished for sins. Or even the story of the man born blind. Same questions asked and answered.


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    Eagle
    First let me thank you for the post. It is hard to see ourselves as others do yet it is important.

    Secondly, I recommend that more people read Yancey as opposed to Piper, Mahaney, (insert Calvinista of the day). Yancey raises questions and points out fallacies. He is also accepted by a broad swath of Christians. I read his book, Disappointment With God, 6 weeks before my daughter was diagnosed with her brain tumor. In the book, he had forced me to look at my expectations for God and forced me to understand what true healing was. So, I did not spend a lot of time wrestling with God when she became ill because I had done so with that book.

    As a side note: a few years down the road, her pediatric neurosurgeon said I was very different than many Christians he had met in the brain tumor business. He said he had to spend time trying to convince them that their child was desperately sick and would most likely die. He said so many would not listen to him, insisting that they had prayed and that God was going to heal their child-absolutely, no question. Many refused to prepare themselves for the eventuality of the death because they felt that would be a mistrust of God and one HAD to have faith in the healing or God would NOT heal them. Yet many of them died anyway. can you imagine the pain they felt-blaming themselves for not having enough faith?

    On the other hand, having been a hospice nurse for a short time along with my own observations that many children with terrible brain tumors do die, I took a different approach. I asked God to help me walk through it well and prepared myself for what seemed to be inevitable. The neurosurgeon said that I was the first Christian person to whom he needed to say that I could have some hope because she was doing so well-far better than they had expected.

    Her healing was not predicated on how much I believed. It was in the hands of God and the doctors and God knew exactly how I felt.

    It was soon after that conversation that I had my crisis of faith that led me on a journey to ask those tough questions about people in China and the problem of evil.It was hard but I found enough answers to help me to see that the Christian faith offered me the most answers in this life. Not perfect, but enough. And i have grown to trust in a God that is often mysterious and regularly astonishing.

    So, Eagle, ask your questions and keep reading people like Yancey. And I pray you find those answers that you seek.


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    Eagle
    You make me smile. God is far bigger than many people who seek to limit the work of His Spirit in His people. Jesus regularly picked those that offended the sensibilities of the Pharisees-undeducated fishermen, horrible tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. Then, as soon as the church formed, He picked a formerly murderous Pharisee to be an Apostle-Paul. The church was not excited, in the beginning, with Paul either. God is not a tame God and He regularly does thing that upset His some of His people.


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    Junkster
    Oh, I know they do not love us or God. I also understand that they do not have the Holy Spirit so the lack thereof causes their expression to be even more difficult. My compassion for the lost state is often exhibited in perseverance, along with taming my tongue (which, as a blogger, is very, very difficult and I fail daily). I hope that some will remember that there is one Christian who is willing to take it-criticism, tirades, pain, etc-and not fling it back at them. Each one of those people are dearly beloved of God

    One of my favorite verse is “Upon this Rock (Peter’s confession of the Christ) I will build my church and the very gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Note the position of the church in relation to the gates of hell. Many Christians assume that means that we can stay in our safe enclaves and that hell can’t hurt it. But , it says that they gates of hell will not prevail against the church. That seems to indicate a church that is pounding on the very gates of hell to bring the message of God’s redemption. The gates cannot stand against this pounding and will fail. And when you open the gates of hell-imagine what will come out! And that is why we stand ready to face it.


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    Lin
    You are absolutely right. i was tired and had been doing some reading and confused this in my mind! in fact, it was the same story, the woman caught in adultery that caused Bart Ehrman to turn away from the faith and caused me to find answers to the faith. YIKES!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you friend. I will change it immediately!!!!!!!


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    Lin
    I know I wrote that. Now I can’t find it. Do you know where it is? I am frantically seeking it and my eyes are glazing over.


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    Lin/Junkster

    I found it. It was in the reply to Junkster. If you look at a number of comments i have made on this subject, I have always said the woman caught in adultery. I am tired today. I made a correction and thanked you in the correction, Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!


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    Junkster
    Sorry about the YE comment. So many Christians have said to me that I am not telling the truth when i say this is a hindrance. Yet, I know that it is because I have spent time with so many who have walked away due to this “requirement” to be a god Christians. I am a bit touchy because I feel I have lost a few friends over the stand I have made on this blog. I am sooo sorry.


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    jack allen

    Professor Dee-him, why not? Since a high school graduate can form and be head of “seminary” like the Pastor’s College, why can’t I be a professor? Kind of makes my day. 🙂


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    Deb

    Such a statement truly boggles the mind. It seems to say that the lost are to be treated like children since, I guess, women can teach little kids. I have always thought such an allowanced was stupid. if women are gullible and easily deceived, then why are they allowed to teach children who are also gullible and easily deceived?

    Here is the real reason, IMNHO, people like Akin, etc don’t like to teach children and so they find a “biblical” excuse to get rid of it.


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    Tarawa

    Could you please explain what you believe the fear of G-d means? It is a very interesting statement and one that has been misused by some authoritarian types.


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    Anna

    Even more simple-would they say that if their child was killed in a car accident. They wouldn’t because ,deep down inside, they know it’s not being applied correctly.


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    Estelle

    Thank you for your reference. I also like equip.org.


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    Lynn
    Awesome example! You definitely get it. What about that new tower hotel being built in Abu Dhabi (I think). It is the largest building in the world. And that is not an area in which their are many Christians, as well.


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    Dee, I thought you simply got your “bad girls” of the bible mixed up because I knew you had written of the addition of the woman in adultery to the text, before. I just did not want others to think it about the woman at the well. That whole convo she had with Jesus is very important!

    I also want to add that when folks like Eagle and others turn from Christianity because of how some groups behave or what they say, I want to beg them to read Jesus for themselves and not just understand it through what some professing Christians say or do. Jesus NEVER said such things as have been attributed to Him. And I give one example to very similar questions asked of Him in Luke 13.

    The bottomline is that bad stuff happens in our fallen world to even innocents. We must simply be ready. I think you made this clear in your comment about your daughter’s brain tumor.

    The strange thing about my 9/11 story is that I was out of town with a professor in Quality Technology consulting with a small manufacturing company. She was an avowed agnostic (and very liberal)who had a son living in NYC who was studying at Columbia at the time. I was trying to be very careful about what I said about anything so said little. However, she was the one railing against the evil Muslims and the evil Islamic religion. It blew me away. So, you never know. (Her son was ok but we did not know until about 4 pm that day. My secretary, back at the office, called him every hour on the hour and would relay to us because our cell phone coverage was not reliable where we were)


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    bridget

    I am sorry that I didn’t acknowledge your intriguing comment. And I did grow up in the frenzy. I even read ALL ( I am so embarrassed to admit this) of the Left Behind series. Even worse, i like a few of them. But, then again, i read this one fiction trilogy on the Nephilim and i don’t buy the half breed stuff as well. And now, here goes, I don’t believe in a pretrib Rapture, I am an amillennialist (I think we are living in the age when Christ is on the throne-sitted at the right hand of God the Father), and that a couple of the prophecies refer to things that my have already happened (the one that not a generation will pass away before these things happen-I think it refers to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem)

    Now, in case people are freaking out: I am not a preterist- believe that is wrong. I do not know for sure about this stuff and may change my opinion, this is a secondary issue-I do believe that Christ is coming again, new heavens and earth, judgment, etc.

  47. Pingback: Articles of Interest 09-10-11 | Onward, Forward, Toward...


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    Harold Camping says the world ends October 21st, so not to worry!


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    I’ve been to Vegas several times over the last 20 years or so for personal reasons unrelated to the main reasons that city exists. Once I had my 3rd grade daughter with me and she was asking me what the big deal with with Vegas. I told her it was just “over the top”. But she couldn’t understand what that meant.

    On our last night in the area I drove down the strip to show her just how crazy things are there. The pirates were boarding a ship, a volcano was erupting a block away, a pyramid was projecting a beam into space, people everywhere, and more lights than almost anywhere on the planet. She suddenly piped up “I understand over the top now daddy.” 🙂


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    suzie q

    Are you Fred Bob? Could you try to stick with one identity? Surely this blog is not so important in your life that you must persist at all costs? I hate proxy servers!


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    It seems as if it’s almost impossible for many evangelicals/charismatics to simply say “I (we) don’t know” or “I (we) don’t really understand that passage – it’s a tough one.”

    What’s so hard about admitting that we’re human, I wonder?!

    *

    @ Eagle: I was living in the D.C. area at the same time you were and did not see people (in church, from church) acting like the folks you knew. Instead, they were open about their shock, grief, rage, incomprehension, fear etc. – but many *did* think it was a huge call to repentance and that we (America) failed to follow through. (I did not see it that way then, nor do I now.)

    I have to admit that I get irritated when people focus solely on what happened in NYC… D.C. got hit, and all those people died in the crash in Shanksville. (Only God knows how many more *might* have died had that crash not taken place.)

    It still boggles my mind… and is not something I can bear to think about for much time. Although I did not know anyone who died, I have my own scars. We all do, I think. (Especially those who lost someone, those who lived in close proximity to the sites, etc.)

    Personally… I wish that the site of the WTC had been made into a memorial park/garden, since it is a mass grave. But its location makes that nearly impossible. (Am sure that Trinity Church – in the same area – would have been torn down a *long* time ago if people had not worked to protect it from the fate of most prime real estate on/near Wall Street.)


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    “much time” should read “for any length of time.”


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    Another thought on the evangelical (etc.) response to 9/11: since it brings us face to face with our mortality, my suspicion is that many people make up “reasons” in order to avoid facing the precariousness of their (our) own existence.


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    RE dee on Sat, Sep 10 2011 at 12:08 pm:

    “…I am a bit touchy because I feel I have lost a few friends over the stand I have made on this blog. I am sooo sorry…”

    If they are true friends you have not lost them. True friends do not let religion & politics get in the way of true friendship. This was Gramma’s wizdum long ago. It held true then and it holds true now.


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    Good article. We may be in the end times, but not in the last days as they ended with the abrogation of the Old Covenant and the ushering in of the New Covenantabout A.D.30. Peter proclaimed this at Pentecost. It is wearysome to hear the so called prophets who seemingly are let in on the mind of God regarding tragedies.


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    Everyone seems to enjoy seeing God’s judgement or a “wake up” call, or at the very least divine confirmation of their personal morals in virtually every natural disaster.

    I understand that seeing patterns in random event is part of our nature, but couldn’t just once accept disasters for what they are…random events (in the case of natural disasters) or the response of human beings who are either filled with anger and frustration or feel their way of life, culture or religion is being threatened.

    Assigning a divine cause does nothing to help the situation and in many cases makes things worse, as it provides fuel for those who believe God is on their side and supports their cause, to push even harder in trying to remake the world in their own image.


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    I am simply reminded today how tenuous is our grip in our existence and place in this world.

    Trust God; nothing else can save you.


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    Religious people of all stripes have wondered since recorded history about the connection between men’s deeds and God’s judgement. Don’t the Gospels record the questions of the Jewish leaders to Jesus about a blind man when they asked, “Who sinned, this man or his parents?”

    So it is no surprise that Christians have in their midst those who speculate and proclaim God’s judgment etc. relative to 9/11. Many Muslims have done this as well, saying that Allah allowed his glorious servants to be successful in the mission to strike the Great Satan. I haven’t really kept up with what all of the religious groups, or representatives of those groups have said about 9/11.

    I can say that within the circles of Christian faith that I personally travel that no such proclamations about judgment or end times were proclaimed. I would say in the main that most of the evangelical leaders whom I heard speak after 9/11 did so thoughtfully.

    I am glad that you have joined the chorus of the vast majority of evangelicals who reject the kind of thinking that Ms. Lotz displayed.

    As for Eagle and his post, I really don’t have any thoughts. I hope that he will eventually have a faith in Christ that will transcend the stupid statements that some of those who follow Christ might make. After all, we worship Christ, not his followers.

    And maybe he will come to have a broader view on humanity that to use the couple of examples as an excuse the disparage Christ.

    What Eagle has done could be done to any religion, political group, philosophy or group. The massacre of millions in the former USSR and China – “Isn’t atheism lovely?”

    You see. It’s pretty easy. Not all atheists or agnostics would do what Stalin and Mao did. Atheists and agnostics seem to understand that naturally.

    But when it comes to faith, Christianity especially, they seem to show a lack of the inability to recognize the distinctions that they grant to themselves.

    I hope Eagle can recover this faculty.


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    John

    Good statement. I like the distinction you made between end times versus last days.


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    Bounded Reality

    I remember Flip Wilson, the comedian I adored as a kid used to say “The Devil made me do it.” The older I get, the more I realize I screw things up just fine on my own. Although I know you are an atheist, I hope this explanation makes sense if you look at it from my paradigm. The world is full of pain and suffering as a direct result of the Fall. Bad things happen (My son had a bib that said “Spit happens.” It concerns me that there are so many Christians out there who think that God is very, very mad at all of us and is going to “get” us when we sin. Since there is no way that we cannot sin, then we must expect bad things at every turn. “I got into a car wreck? Must be because I was mean to a co-worker today.”


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    Seneca

    I would say the majority of people on this blog agree with your statement. In God, we trust!


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    Anonymous

    Eagle is one of the most thoughtful, open-minded agnostics that I have met in a long time. He and I have been having off-line discussions and I can assure you that he has a thoughtful, open heart along with tremendous compassion. There are quite a few Christians who could stand to ask the questions he raises.

    Here is the problem with our Christian faith in America and I speak as one who loves to share the Gospel, and does so regularly. American Christianity has linked itself to closely to culture which means that if one is successful monetarily-God is blessing you because you are a good Christian. Then, there are those who decry certain sexual aberrations (and I believe they are sin) but casually accept the divorce rates in the church, the number of people living with others, and pastors and church leaders who have committed adultery or hidden pedophilia or even committed molestations.

    We jump up and down and ask the world to see us and the world often looks and see a people no different than they are: materialistic, self-centered, focused on one or two “really bad sins” that they do not struggle with, etc. And they feel good about themselves, to boot.The American church has aligned itself with politics and, in so doing, has upped the probability that the world will believe we stand more for capitalism than for holy living. Do not take this statement as a dig at capitalism-after all I do have an MBA.

    So, the world looks on-who is a good Christian leader? Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, the Duggars, Ed Young Jr, Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker? And then we have the statements by Lotz and one I will cover by Piper tomorrow that hit the news. Of course, you and I know the difference. How does the seeker know the difference?

    The faith has become splintered with warring factions preaching their theology du jour. I frankly feel sorry for those who are truly struggling to find the pure faith that has brought me much joy.


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    Dee:

    It has been this way for 20 centuries. It is a sad predicaement, but one that has always existed.

    Have you ever read what Augustine said about the collapse of Rome? He equated the faith with his culture in some regard.

    The same is true of much of Europe.

    Our country was founded primarily by Christians, and many of those Christians had the view that God himself was active in the establishiment of this country. That vision cannot be completely extracted from the DNA of our country. That gives us some great blessings and some great headaches, as well.

    I am glad to hear about how sharp Eagle is. That is good to know. He should have no trouble stubmling over the various thoughtless and ill-informed comments that some may make.

    The seeker doesn’t know the difference. I don’t know how God works around all of the stupid things I have said and done over the last 36 years as a Christian. But somehow He does. It does not excuse my stupidity. But it does give me faith that God does transcend His messengers, even though His messengers are charged to be faithful and their lack of faithfulness is no small matter.

    It’s very much like what Adrian Rogers said about the Bible. One of the reasons Adrian said he believed the Bible was really the word of God is the fact that it has withstood not only the attacks of unbelievers, but the shoddy preaching and teaching of Christians. That is never more true than today.


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    The fallacy about wealth being an earned blessing is very ancient. When Jesus interacted with the “rich young ruler” and taught that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that for a rich man to enter heaven, the response of the disciples was — how then can any be saved. That was because they believed that being rich meant you were good, and being poor meant you were not. So if a rich man could not get in, then no one could!!! We understand the teaching differently, that the rich had a god in the form of their wealth that would interfere with worshiping God.


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    Bounded wrote:

    “…I understand that seeing patterns in random event is part of our nature, but couldn’t just once accept disasters for what they are…random events (in the case of natural disasters) or the response of human beings who are either filled with anger and frustration or feel their way of life, culture or religion is being threatened…”

    As an open theist I can partially commiserate with this observation and in my view there does not have to be a divine rhyme or reason for every course of human events. Many people of faith (evangelical Protestants) are uncomfortable with the thought of randomness (shit happens) because (in my opinion) they feel it somehow detracts from God’s “incontrolness”.

    I think numo said it best in a previous thread where she observed that divine intervention (one way or the other) is more the exception than the rule.


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    Dee,

    on a daily basis there are, I would wager, far more acts of kindness, selflessness, and charity performed then there are bad things. It’s just that all the good things don’t get any press.


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    Anonymous 2:50 & 4:00 PM,
    Thanks for what are, in my opinion, some of the best comments made on this thread.


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    Anonymous

    Can I add one thing to you well thought out response? The role of love and caring factors into things far more than we can imagine. It is amazing to me that, when one shows a bit of selflessness in the service of others, many folks are far more apt to listen to your words. And, in today’s world, in which every Tom, Dick, and Harry can make their thoughts known, present blogger included, listening and empathy go a long way.


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    Dee, did you forget me?

    Arce on Sun, Sep 11 2011 at 04:20 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    The fallacy about wealth being an earned blessing is very ancient. When Jesus interacted with the “rich young ruler” and taught that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that for a rich man to enter heaven, the response of the disciples was — how then can any be saved. That was because they believed that being rich meant you were good, and being poor meant you were not. So if a rich man could not get in, then no one could!!! We understand the teaching differently, that the rich had a god in the form of their wealth that would interfere with worshiping God.


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    Listening and empathy on a blog? That sure would be nice. How about people even being kind and loving to one another. Is that even possible or just a pipe dream? Looking for blog Heaven I fear is not a reality.


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    Arce

    I am so sorry. A certain rejected commenter has filled our comment moderation box with an unbelievable number of comments. Yours got stuck in the middle of all of them. This has turned into a major hassle but we are working on a solution so our regulars will not be placed into the no fly zone.


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    I know it is a huge task to moderate comments at the pace they come in on this blog. And it can consume you. You, Deb and BTCM are all in my prayers.


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    Lee Anne: 

    HowDee,

    “Listening and empathy on a blog?”

    What is it specifically you are looking for, that you are not finding?  Are you referring to this blog? Would you be so kind as to elaborate?  Dee & Deb have been very kind to everyone here.  Are you referring to some of the bad apples here or in your experience in blogging, to have found insensitivity lacking elsewhere also?

    Blessings,

    Sopy ;~)


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    HowDee to you Sopy!

    I was talking about my experience with blogs in general. Some subject comes up sooner or later that causes major uproars and contentions.

    Blessings to you also,

    Lee Anne


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    Also, I agree with what Eagle just said. There is a pretty good book about this very subject called “When Bad Christians Happen to Good People.”

    Lee Anne


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    Eagle,

    HowDee,

    You said: “For me today…when someone says they are a Christian that triggers many defenses. I’m more alert, I’m much more cautious, I’m uneasy and on my toes. For me red flags go up in my mind when someone says they are a Christian. It’s just like that, and I wish that were not the case but I tend to be wreary.”

    Thank you for sharing this. 

    Yes, many have been “injured”, in the name of Christianity, sad, but true.  

    What, in your opinion would be helpful in relieving some of that uneasy you have been made to feel by others who by their words maybe profess Christ, but in their actions, that being a horse of a different color?

    Blessings,

    Sopy  ;~)


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    Lee Anne:

    HowDee,

    You said: “Some subject comes up sooner or later that causes major uproars and contentions.”

    Yes, I have see that also wherever controversial subjects  are being discussed. Sometimes the manner and the tempo is just a tad off, I suppose. Shame on them, huh?

    I am usually ok until some one mentions all things a “certain” religious group.  I very much dislike it when godly folk are put upon and hard pressed.  Just gets my dandruff up! Didn’t my daddy say: “that is what the tool shed is for?” (snicker).

    Thanks for sharing!

    Blessings,

    Sopy ;~)


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    Something I’d like to throw out for thought concerning the issue of grace and love vs. judgment. I have a thought for both sides:

    For Christians: We are called to preach God’s message to the downtrodden, to love all men with the love of Christ (no greater love has any man than that he lay down his life for his friends) Yet we are known for our condemnation of homosexuals and violence to abortion clinics, our attempts to control people’s behavior with politics etc. etc. How is it that so many times our ‘interpretations’ of the grace of God manifests itself as the judgment and condemnation of sinners?

    For the non-Christians: You speak of Christians judging and hating and finding more grace outside the church than in. But are you sure? I think a lot of what you are seeing is due to a tendency NOT to define things as right or wrong in non-Christian circles rather than actual grace or tolerance. Grace and Tolerance is manifested by how you treat that which actually threatens you, or that you actually view as wrong. not by how you treat that to which you are ambivalent. If you don’t define Homosexuality as wrong, then what medal do you get when you are nice to a homosexual? How do you treat people doing things you actually think are wrong? And how do you react to people who DO you wrong? And in that I just don’t see what you do.

    I routinely see Christians that see homosexual acts as deeply sinful offer great compassion to homosexuals themselves when they are in great need. I do not tend to see non-Christians offering great love and compassion to someone whose deeds they despise like say Ken Haggard in his struggles. In general, the response I see from non-Christians to those they actually view as evil is more or less “let them rot in Hell”.

    So I don’t really see non-Christians (as a group) doing a better job in those kinds of situations than Christians (as a group). And adding to that,when it comes to things like disaster response and compassion to those poor and impoverished in the world, it is still church and churched communities that come to the rescue significantly over and above the non-churched.

    Zeta


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    Zeta

    I think the problem is the tendency to assign to all Christians the acts of some “christians” who get press etc., including condemnations of their fellow citizens, abuse, discrimination, grasping for power, shallow thinking, etc., etc.

    As someone who has twice run for public office, the difficult problem is being tagged with the stupid acts or statements of people who identify themselves as a supporter.

    I think this happens thousands of times a day with our good Lord. Pastors continually say that something or other is or is not the will of God, is or is not “biblical”, is or is not sin, is or is not a blessing, etc., etc. A whole bunch of that is pure speculation, with weak or no exegetical support, and a lot is imposing one’s cultural preferences on the world.

    In this country, American Muslims roundly condemned the 9/11 attacks, yet were continually dissed for not condemning them enough. Why should Christians expect any different treatment when other “christians” do stupid or ill-motivated things and claim that it is because they are “christians” that they do or say whatever?

    And the “recognized” spokespersons for the Christian faith are among the worst for making bad statements and failing condemn the bad statements and acts of other “christians”.


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    “For me today…when someone says they are a Christian that triggers many defenses. I’m more alert, I’m much more cautious, I’m uneasy and on my toes. For me red flags go up in my mind when someone says they are a Christian. It’s just like that, and I wish that were not the case but I tend to be wreary. I think many people are….”

    Truth be told, I am the exact same way. I can totally relate to what you are saying. Especially if they are in paid ministry. But this is not Jesus’ fault. If you look to Him alone, it helps us see a bigger picture. Besides, you could have been born in Calvin’s Geneva where you got a visit from the magistrates if you did not attend church and even your courses at each meal were regulated! :o)


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    Junkster:

    Thanks for the compliment.

    I am just trying to keep up with the many, many good ones you have posted that I have read before!


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    Zeta,

    I think you have the heart of this issue ( …concerning the issue of grace and love vs. judgment) when you so apply say:

    “I routinely see Christians that see homosexual acts as deeply sinful offer great compassion to homosexuals themselves when they are in great need.”

    I think we can infer from this that both Christians & non-Christians alike are quite capable of offering great love and compassion to someone whose deeds and/or behavior they derision as inappropriate. The capacity always present, but the failure of execution equally present.  Simply put, we are hard pressed on both accounts, hence the human condition.

    It is this very condition, I believe Christ came to remedy.

    And no, I don’t think Hell is gonna freeze over…

    hahahahahaha

    Sopy ;~)


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    Sopwith wrote in response to Zeta:

    “…I routinely see Christians that see homosexual acts as deeply sinful offer great compassion to homosexuals themselves when they are in great need.”

    I think we can infer from this that both Christians & non-Christians alike are quite capable of offering great love and compassion to someone whose deeds and/or behavior they derision as inappropriate. The capacity always present, but the failure of execution equally present. Simply put, we are hard pressed on both accounts, hence the human condition…”

    This is precisely what Lincoln referred to when he spoke about the better angels [although some religious traditions will maintain that we inherit only an evil nature] of our nature in his first Inaugural Address.

    Personally? I couldn’t care less what a person’s sexual orientation is, I am far more concerned with the content of their character

    Oh well, that’s just Muff, love the liberal & hate the liberalism right? ha ha! ==> (smiley face goes here)


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    Muff

    I enjoy reading your loving liberalism! And you are loved at this blog!


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    @ Muff: am very much with you on this one!


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    Muff Potter,

    HowDee,

    You said:

    “This is precisely what Lincoln referred to when he spoke about ‘the better angels …of our nature’ in his first Inaugural Address.”

    Exactly! 

    …appealing to “the better angels of our nature” …is supposed to be a good thing, yes indeed!

    Blessings!

    Sopy ;~)