Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised "for the good of its victims" may be the most oppressive. CS Lewis
In today’s News and Observer, Raleigh, NC there was an astute letter to the editor.
“Maybe the so-called pastor, Terry Jones of Gainesville Fla., with his 50 member church can merge with the so-called pastor Fred Phelps’ 50 member church in Topeka to for a “mega” 100 member church of hate.
As a review, Jones wants to burn the Quran tomorrow to “commemorate” 9/11. Phelps is the despicable leader of the loathsome Westboro Baptist Church, which protests at the funerals of American soldiers. Read more about this at Wikipedia.
Yesterday, Jones announced that he would not burn the Quran because Imam Rauf, of the NYC Islamic center mess, had agreed to move the center. Later in the day, Rauf denied such a deal. As of about 2 PM today, Jones said that he was tricked into stopping the burning and is considering going ahead with the act unless God “stays his hand.” There is an interesting sidebar to this statement. Apparently Jones’ associate pastor (This just goes to prove that any size Baptist church must have more than one pastor or it isn’t a real church) spoke of God staying the hand of Abraham, as he was about to sacrifice his son. Did you know that Muslims change that story to say that Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael?
I want to state categorically that Jones and Phelps are sorry examples of Christianity and I wish both of them would disappear from the scene, immediately. Perhaps they could investigate sightings of Nephilim in Arkansas. But, they both appear to be seeking their time in the limelight and will likely continue their reprehensible behavior.
Wade Burleson, who is now back in the saddle (welcome back!) at his blog Grace and Truth to You wrote a thought provoking article on an incident of Bible burning by the US military in Afghanistan. I promise that this will all tie together.
“The U.S. military has confirmed that Bibles of United States soldiers serving in Afghanistan were confiscated and destroyed by order of the U.S. State Department because Muslims were offended that the soldiers were filmed reading the Bibles on Arabic Al Jazeera television.”
“ Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages (Pashto and Dari) amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.”
“The decision was made that it was a 'force protection' measure to throw them away, because, if they did get out, it could be perceived by Afghans that the U.S. government or the U.S. military was trying to convert Muslims," Wright told CNN on Tuesday.”“Troops at posts in war zones are required to burn their trash, Wright said.”
“This decision came to light recently, after the Al Jazeera English network aired video of a group prayer service and chapel sermon that a reporter said suggested U.S. troops were being encouraged to spread Christianity.”
“The military says a soldier at Bagram received the Bibles and didn't realize he wasn't allowed to hand them out. In the Al Jazeera video, which shows the Bibles at the prayer service, an unnamed soldier says members of his church raised money for them. The chaplain later corrected the soldier and confiscated the Bibles, Wright said.”
“Military officers considered sending the Bibles back to the church, he said, but they worried the church would turn around and send them to another organization in Afghanistan — giving the impression that they had been distributed by the U.S. government. That could lead to violence against troops or U.S. civilians, Wright said.”
Before I pontificate on this subject, I want to mention that Imam Rauf made some statements that were shown on the O’Reilly Factor last evening. I do not want to misrepresent anything that the Imam said but one thing stood out in his remarks. He was concerned about potential violence in the Middle East if the yahoo (my words) pastor goes ahead in his Quran burning.
I fear a much bigger problem is developing with no easy resolution. Every group, no matter how altruistic and/or Christian, has nut jobs. Let’s name him Bubba. You know they guy I am talking about. He’s the guy who shows up to a peaceful protest against proposed healthcare legislation with a poster of Obama dressed as Hitler. He’s the guy who appears at a prayer vigil at an abortion center covered in blood, carrying dolls covered in blood. Bubba usually carries a megaphone and sings stupid songs at ear piercing levels. Bubba supports your cause but you really don’t want Bubba to show up, ever. Yet, he always does and no one seems to know how to handle him because he has a right to protest as well.
It bothers me that one nut job from a small church in Florida could cause threats of violence by Muslims around the world. It concerns me that Imam Rauf should speak in a matter of fact manner about such violence and unrest in the Islamic world. He seems to think this is a normal response. Well, if Bubba can cause such unrest then we might as well give up the ghost now. Because no matter how hard we try, there will always be fruitcakes making exceedingly poor decisions. How can one stupid person cause an entire region of the world to go nuts?
A couple of examples show us that radical Islam does not subscribe to "Sticks and stones may break my bones; but words will never hurt me."
Theo Van Gogh , a provocative, over the top writer, who criticized Islam in disgusting fashion (along with every other religion in the world), was reviled by Muslims and was eventually killed by a Muslim.
Salman Rushdie wrote The Satanic Verses which was perceived by Muslims to treat Muhammad in an irreverent fashion. A religious fatwa was issued on Radio Tehran by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. In other words, assassinate the man. He was forced into hiding for years.
Which brings me to the Bible burning issue in Afghanistan. Why in the world didn’t anybody raise a fuss about this? There seems to be a fundamental lack of mutual respect on the issue of religious freedom. We rightly condemn the burning of the Qurans. But where is the outrage of Bibles being burned on the military base?
I expect that some will say that the Bibles were in a local language and that means that they would be distributed off base which would offend the Afghanis. However, the Bibles could have stayed on base and be freely distributed to those on the base who wanted such an item. My guess is that there are curious locals who might like to take a look at this forbidden book. In fact, the military could have had books available from many faith groups on the base to show the Afghanis our commitment to freedom of religion.
Can these extremists ever be appeased? Must the world walk around on proverbial eggshells waiting for the next yahoo to insult Islam? I must question the sensitivities of this faith group. Its proponents have successfully put the world on edge. And, to this blogger, it seems that violence and strife will only continue to increase. May God help us.
I find it funny that outlets such as CNN refer to the Ground Zero “mosque” as an “Islamic Cultural Center.” Make no mistake, it IS a mosque…and here’s a fact most people need to understand:
“Building a mosque on the site of their conquests is part of the Islamic tradition.” ~ Michael Evans
Prime example: *The Dome of the Rock* in Jerusalem — that eyesore of a structure is smack, right dab in the middle of the place! I didn’t even know it was a mosque until recently.
“As the ninth anniversary of 9/11 approaches, and Americans fret about a Pastor they never heard of burning Korans to commemorate the event, people on both sides of the political aisle should be asking a serious question: did the media negligently create this controversy?”
Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/09/09/did-media-negligently-create-koran-burning-controversy#ixzz0zAljEUJI
This so called Mosque will be a comunity center open to all faiths. There will be a Mosque located in the building but so what? There are also Mcdonalds fast food outlets and strip joints in the neighborhood. This so called Mosque will be located a couple of blocks from “ground Zero” in an old burlington coat factory building purchased by the Muslim group. I am not of the Muslim faith but If what they are doing is legal then let the project go on. Last time I checked, it is not against the law to be a Muslim.
Dee, the tradition of desecrating the sacred objects of one’s enemies started (at least as far as a full written justification for such practices is concerned) with none other than the ancient Israelites. Indeed, desecrating what others hold precious is one of the most common expression of humanity. Indeed, the roots are ancient.
Let’s be very clear: The Jewish people were originally commanded to be absolutely intolerant of other gods. That is Torah. Within their borders, they were to allow no exceptions, no compromises, and no foreign ways. The unique thing about the Jewish establishment was the fact that they created the Jewish nation on foreign soil. The previous inhabitants were to be expelled, utterly. This is bold and brazen approach to civilization, but, it was all in the providence of God. It was, in fact, judgment against the depraved, denigrating conditions of the immoral heathen world. With that in mind, here are Pastor Jones’ reasons for burning the Koran:
“Ten Reasons to Burn a Koran
On 9/11/10 we are burning Korans to raise awareness and warn. In a sense it is neither an act of love nor of hate. We see, as we state in the Ten Reasons below, that Islam is a danger. We are using this act to warn about the teaching and ideology of Islam, which we do hate as it is hateful. We do not hate any people, however. We love, as God loves, all the people in the world and we want them to come to a knowledge of the truth. To warn of danger and harm is a loving act. God is love and truth. If you know the truth it can set you free. The world is in bondage to the massive grip of the lies of Islam. These are:
One
The Koran teaches that Jesus Christ, the Crucified, Risen Son of God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords was NOT the Son of God, nor was he crucified (a well documented historical fact that ONLY Islam denies). This teaching removes the possibility of salvation and eternal life in heaven for all Islam’s believers. They face eternal damnation in hell if they do not repent.
Two
The Koran does not have an eternal origin. It is not recorded in heaven. The Almighty God, Creator of the World, is NOT it’s source. It is not holy. It’s writings are human in origin, a concoction of old and new teachings. This has been stated and restated for centuries by scholars since Islam’s beginnings, both Moslem and non-Moslem.
Three
The Koran’s teaching includes Arabian idolatry, paganism, rites and rituals. These are demonic, an ongoing satanic stronghold under which Moslems and the world suffer.
Four
The earliest writings that are known to exist about the Prophet Mohammad were recorded 120 years after his death. All of the Islamic writings (the Koran and the Hadith, the biographies, the traditions and histories) are confused, contradictory and inconsistent. Maybe Mohammad never existed. We have no conclusive account about what he said or did. Yet Moslems follow the destructive teachings of Islam without question.
Five
Mohammad’s life and message cannot be respected. The first Meccan period of his leadership seems to have been religiously motivated and a search for the truth. But in the second Medina period he was “corrupted by power and worldly ambitions.” (Ibn Warraq) These are characteristics that God hates. They also led to political assassinations and massacres which continue to be carried out on a regular basis by his followers today.
Six
Islamic Law is totalitarian in nature. There is no separation of church and state. It is irrational. It is supposedly immutable and cannot be changed. It must be accepted without criticism. It has many similarities to Nazism, Communism and Fascism. It is not compatible with Western Civilization.*
Seven
Islam is not compatible with democracy and human rights. The notion of a moral individual capable of making decisions and taking responsibility for them does not exist in Islam. The attitude towards women in Islam as inferior possessions of men has led to countless cases of mistreatment and abuse for which Moslem men receive little or no punishment, and in many cases are encouraged to commit such acts, and are even praised for them. This is a direct fruit of the teachings of the Koran.
Eight
A Muslim does not have the right to change his religion. Apostasy is punishable by death.
Nine
Deep in the Islamic teaching and culture is the irrational fear and loathing of the West.
Ten
Islam is a weapon of Arab imperialism and Islamic colonialism. Wherever Islam has or gains political power, Christians, Jews and all non-Moslems receive persecution, discrimination, are forced to convert. There are massacres and churches, synagogues, temples and other places of worship are destroyed.”
You apparently believe, Dee, that Jones is self-evidently a “nut job,” even though his behavior and approach to the matter comports with thousands of years of human history across various cultures. Only in the last 75-100 years have we in the enlightened West “evolved” to the extent that someone like Jones is a self-evident nut job, no explanation, argument or evidence required.
Rather, as Bill would surely advocate, we should just all get along and sing kumbaya while we visit the “community center” open to all faiths sitting smack in the middle of Islam’s greatest American conquest.
So we will all use “pastor” Jones as our authority on the Muslim faith. We had better try to get along with these people. We certainly dont need any holy wars in the United States. There are radical elements in all religions and I would say that “pastor” Jones would fit in that catagory. “Pastor” Jones and his philosophy Is what worrys me.
No, Bill, we should obviously either use your version of what constitutes the faith of Islam, the media’s version or George Bush’s version.
I think it’s despicable that muslims would want to build a mosque near ground zero,where so many people were murdered.Because historically it is tradition to build a mosque on newly conquered teritory.I’am sure it will be a feather in the hat of New York muslims,around the world,amoung other muslims,if they pull this off.”Even though they have a legal right to do it,does not mean it is the right thing to do. I aso think it’s despicable what these two pastors are doing,it is not the right thing to do.
Surly Boy
Forgive me for being naive but I didn’t know that the USA was to conduct business as defined by God for Israel. If so, there are a whole lot more things we need to be following like antiquated dietary laws which would upset me since I love lobster.
Are you really advocating the destruction of all non-Christians, including their children and dogs? Do you think that the US is now a substitution for Israel?
I would instead draw your attention to the New Testament in Acts 17 in which Paul argues the case for an unknown God surrounded by the idols of a pagan culture. Perhaps he is modeling for us a new way, framed by the grace offered by the death and resurrection of Christ. He could have run around smashing the idols, he did not. He argued brilliantly for the Gospel in this chapter.
Also he was arguing amidst a culture who would horribly persecute his fellow Christians and eventually put him to death. The Roman would conquer and destroy the Temple in just a few decades, forever scattering both Christians and Jews throughout the world.
I do not believe that God wants us to smash and burn to rid the world of its idols. Israel did a bit of that but didn’t succeed, due to their disobedience, and instead fell to the worship of false idols . Even with the destruction of all other competing religions, the ideas would still be present and apt to infect His people. Even in the Garden of Eden, destructive ideas were present as the snake tempted Eve.
Man is , at heart, sinful and competing religious claims and atheism will always be a part of our world until the Lord comes again. The Word of God is powerful and we are commanded to preach it to all nations and religions. Only by the Holy Spirit do we stay strong, warding off the wiles of false belief systems.
In fact, the only destruction that I see in the New Testament is Jesus turning over the money changers tables in the Temple. Perhaps that should be a warning to our new mega churches and religious leaders who use the church to profit themselves.
Also, historically I would disagree with you. Many historians believe that secularism got its start during the Renaissance (curiously coinciding with the Reformation-perhpas God’s way of diluting the effect and giving people two clear choice-Him or the world) which placed the accomplishments of man in the forefront. The statue of David by Da Vinci is a symbol of the era.
As the Reformation called people back to God, secularism glorified man who could supposedly imagine and plan his own destiny. The French Revolution(1789-1799) marked the establishment of this belief system. So, I would say that this stuff has been going on for hundreds of years.
The only solution is Jesus. We can bang people over the head with it or we can argue our case and let the Holy Spirit do its work.
Yes, I believe Jones is a nut job. Perhaps you should go to his website and read his rules for his academy. If he represents Christianity to you, then we might not have much to discuss.
Bill
You have a valid point of view. I think there are two sides to this story and that is what makes it so difficult. I agree with you wholeheartedly that both sides have their share of Bubbas. Hmmm, I wonder what a Muslim Bubba would look like?
Perhaps we don’t. I’m so often flummoxed by internecine doctrinal disputes. I happen to like Odinism at the moment, but I digress.
With that said, my post related to Jones’ ten reasons for what he’s doing. To you, he’s a “nut job,” but again you fail to explain why. Look, all of your general doctrinal arguments are perfectly rational and in some cases compelling, which means that when I’m not being surly, flippant or trying to be funny I agree with certain of them. But Jones’ arguments are also rational and have the added advantage of being the historically “correct” approach. In other words, our Christian forebears, our Jewish forebears, and our pagan forebears agreed with him. Certainly Muslims currently agree with him in their approach to Christianity, right?
The so-called enlightenment did not deceive the majority of modern western mankind until the last 75-100 years, aided, as its elite adherents and advocates were, by mass media. Until then, we lumpen masses were stuck in our old unenlightened ways.
Please explain why Jones’ approach on this issue renders him a nut job.
The mosque is a moot point. I do wonder why very few are asking why they would want to do something that is in such bad taste and so insulting to the survivors of 9/11 and the memory of the dead? But, I guess such questions are not nice?
The real question is what else?
Where do we draw the line in the sand? Islam is NOT a religion. It is disguised as a religion. It is an ideology that comes complete with it’s own civil laws. It cannot coexist with our constitution…the Bill of Rights! (Thank God guys like Patrick Henry insisted on a Bill of Rights)
there are moderate Muslims but there is NO moderate Islam. It is considered a virtue, in the Quran, to lie to infidels so we must be careful. How totally American it is of us to defend a “center” that could very well be recruiting more militants. After all, most Muslim terrorists were recruited and grown in the West. Not in Muslim country’s. The irony, huh? Think long and hard about that. Most of them were not orthodox Muslim but moderates that barely gave a thought outside the works of their “religion”. But that changed when they went West to be educated. This has been going on for 30 years but we barely noticed.
Some folks think it is Christian to ignore that. But I have to wonder why they are so tolerant of intolerance? What about Muslim women? What if we allow points of Sharia law here as has been done in Europe and Canada? We will have gutted the Constitution for religious freedom that is not freedom? Because their ideology is not tolerant of infidels. Does no one read the Quran in full?
Who will tell our grandchildren about Christ since it offends the Muslims? Think that is hyperbole? How many baptist churches are there in Muslim country’s?
The only way this works is if more Christians are totally ignorant of what the Koran teaches. Muslims hate freedom. It goes against their ideology.
We must ask ourselves how a Westernized country like Iran can become OVERNIGHT a Muslim dictatorship where women physicians can no longer practice and now must be totally covered? Yes, they were a dictatorship before that but they also were allowed to be educated and progressive…a dangerous position for any dictator! How did they succumb back to the stone age overnight? Islam is your answer.
We can continue to appease but it will only prolong the inevitable and by that time many innocents will have been killed.
. As Churchill said, the appeasers are only asking to be eaten last.
And sure, I’ll forgive you for being naive. ; )
You, madam, are a breath of fresh air! If we take Bill’s approach of appeasement, we won’t have the freedom to tell our grandchildren about Jesus (or Odin for that matter). Freedom will have been squandered. Of course, we cannot kill all Muslims and that would be abhorrent, even to me. Rather, we must understand your well made point that Islam is a political ideology that at root seeks the overthrow of the West and the imposition of Sharia law. When viewed thus correctly, we must treat it much as we treated Communism and keep it separate from the West. If they want to pray toward Mecca in their native lands, fine. But stay out of my native lands. And of course, I’ll stay out of yours (hear that, George Bush and Barack H. Obama?)
Surly
You say some things that cause me confusion. Which Christian forebears are you referring to? For example, Calvin contributed to the beheading of Servetus. I find that abhorrent. Then there was the Inquisition and the Crusades. i have major problems with both. Just because someone was a Christian does not mean I agree with them. Much harm has been done in the name of Christ throughout the millennia.
Just because any other group would agree with Jones approach does not mean it is more correct. Germany executed Jews. Also, pagan theology is not a good basis for judging an action.
I continue to disagree with you about the last 75 years. I once took a course which clearly showed the basic belief system was only superficially present in the populace for years. Take the postwar US, people payed lip service to faith but there lifestyles lead to a revolt in the 60s.If one sees a drift, one must look to the past for that drift. It is not a sudden thing, waking up one day and saying, “I think I shall become a secualrist.” This change comes subtly, slowly, affecting little changes until it succeeds. I contend that the drift can be traced back for centuries.
Europe was already in the process of eliminating Christianity, looking towards socialism as the answer for the world’s woes. The Russian revolution had occurred around 1918. Also, France would disagree that the Enlightenment did not affect things. Have you read the history of the French Revolution. For a good novel of that time I find The Scarlet Pimpernel an easy read.
I would place Jones in with the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. I would not place him in line with the New Testament and the apostle Paul.
Finally, Odinism??????????? One of my dearest friends is a Norwegian Christian. She would be very surprised that you are devoted to the Norse pantheon. I spent a few weeks over there a couple of years ago with her. I didn’t meet any Odinists so you may be on your own. But I digress as well.
Lydia
You might be interested in reading this article from Christianity Today, Suffocating the Faithful.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/december/26.58.html
You are absolutely correct that the Middle East is notorious for barring the faith. Lebanon used to be primarily christians but that has changed. My son’s dearest friend, Fadi (“faith” in lebanese), is from a Lebanese Christian family who had lived for several generations as Lebanese Christians.However, discriminations set in and the majority of the family left for the US. Although I am grateful for their friendship, it is so sad that the family needed to leave their country for freedom.
The Lollards and the Cathars likely agreed with you about the evils of the Inquisition and the Crusades. But now we know why Jones is, according to you, a nut job, to wit, you’ve placed him in the category of the Inquisitionists and the Crusaders. Let’s see, has he burned out any Muslim eyeballs, crushed any Muslims with slabs of stone, burned any Muslims at the stake, pillaged his way toward Jerusalem for the glory of Christ? I missed it if he did. But he has threatened to burn a “holy” book. Yep, he’s right there with them, he is. This is getting slightly comical, as is your “No true Scotsman” implication regarding Christian forebears.
Thanks for the book recommendation. I’d recommend “God’s Battalions” by Rodney Stark to you. It’s a good place to start to rid yourself, at least on the subject of the Crusades, of the leftist and universalist memes that you’ve imbibed on life’s journey.
And vis-a-vis Odin, some folks still wear Thor’s hammer, so there!
Dee, in all seriousness, I’m not trying to judge Jones’ actions, beliefs, mustache, academy regulations, or anything else as correct according to even my old SGM approach to things. I’m just trying to get you and others to recognize that he ain’t a nut job. You simply disagree with him, but as sincere and nice as you certainly are, that doesn’t make him a nut job. You and our whole country have essentially labeled him as a heretic. May I thus humbly suggest that it is you, Dee, who most resembles the Inquisitionist of old. Pastor (Bill shudders) Jones’ beliefs do not line up with current right-thinking and therefore, ergo, ipso facto, res ipsa loquitur, he must be denounced! And that harshly!
Why Jones is wrong for burning the koran. If terrorist kidnaped my children,or grandchildren,and they told me not to park my car in my garage,because if I did,they would kill them.I would not park my car in my garage.Some might say I’am giving in to the terrorist,but I say “I’am saving the lives my children.There will be another day to take care of the terrorist.Gen. David Patraeus’s statement is good enough for me.He believes it could bring harm to our sons and daughters in the military.
Surly Boy/Warrior of Thor
I had a feeling I should not put down the Crusades when responding to you but, alas, I did. I know that the initial crusaders were responding to the beheading of the bishop of Jerusalem. They started as a just cause. Over time it became a cause for cause sake. Eventually, the Crusaders became the very people they were fighting. And that is a problem.
I think you misunderstand my reference to the Inquisition, et al. I was arguing your point that we should look to Christian forebears as an example. What I was trying to elicit from you was a list of particular Christian ancestors that we should emulate.
For example, Luther condemned the practice of some of his followers for raiding the Catholic churches of the day and destroying the various religious figurines.
I have difficulty justifying the actions of many Christians in the past and do not know if they were even Christians. I have come to the conclusion that I will suspend judgement either yes or no and leave that up to God.
Also, there are a fair number of people who would laugh to hear me described as having leftist and universal memes. I have been accused, more routinely, of being a far right nut. There are a few in my family who would think that I am way too restrictive on what constitutes Christian faith as well. In fact, I am having a chuckle as I write this.
This conversation goes to prove what a vast the continuum is on the road to pursuing one’ s faith and one’s political inclinations! Thanks for the book recommendation. I shall put it on my list.
donny b., that indeed is the best argument for proclaiming that it’s “wrong” to burn a Koran. Of course, it begs the question of why, exactly, is our military currently in Mohammedan lands? But they are there, so we must deal with it as best we can. More on that later.
It also brings to the fore the following statement by Dee: “It bothers me that one nut job from a small church in Florida could cause threats of violence by Muslims around the world.” Should the focus be on what the self-evident nut job’s threatened action “causes” or rather on the completely idiotic, irrational and evil response of the Mohammedans? Perhaps burning a Koran will indeed cause Muslims to kill innocent people. Oh yes, perhaps it will. But the Danish cartoons caused Muslims to kill innocent people. Islam demands aggressive war against non-Muslims, including the killing of innocents, because from the Muslim point of view there is no such thing as an innocent non-Muslim. The clearest and most frequently repeated message of the Koran, appearing on almost every page, is that all non-Muslims are guilty of the monstrous crime of rejecting Allah and his prophet, and thereby deserve death and eternal torture. Why should we respect such a book? Why should we respect such a religion? Sooner or later, people in the West (and people in the non-Muslim world generally) must come to recognize the nature and teachings of Islam. They can have that recognition sooner, and prevent much violence, or they can have that recognition much later, only after Muslims have gained substantial power over our societies and get in a position to harm anyone who opposes them. My view is: the sooner the truth comes out, the better; the sooner things come to a head, the safer we will ultimately be.
Or maybe I’m looking at this from the wrong perspective. Perhaps I should look at it from the vantage point of Angelina Jolie, as important in world affairs as the U.S. State Department and the Vatican, who weighed in, saying, “I have hardly the words that somebody would do that to somebody’s religious book.” (Jolie said that in Pakistan, where she was touring the flood regions, covered in a long dress and headscarf.) Did you know, by the way, that Angelina Jolie is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations? I kid you not.
Now, on to the issue of being in Muslim lands and how it relates to Patraeus. According to Petraeus, burning the Koran in Florida will endanger troops in Afghanistan. Aren’t we in a war in Afghanistan which by definition puts the troops in danger every moment of every day? Are the soldiers not in a war zone which by definition is an endangering territory? And this man is a general? Of what?
And imagine that–one man burning a Koran in Florida can cause significant problems everywhere in the world that we are involved with the Islamic community. That’s a pretty rickety foundation under our “Islamic engagement.” I guess it really is just all about winning hearts and minds.
I like you, Dee!!! Warrior of Thor!
I think you’ll like Stark’s book. It’s particularly relevant nowadays.
My reference to Christian forebears was to those like Charles “The Hammer” Martel, who fought off the invading, rapining Moslem hordes at the Battle of Tours in October 732, to the Crusaders who did indeed respond just as you describe beginning in the 11th Century but not just to a beheading but also as a response to hundreds of years of Moslem invasions and their attempts at colonizing Europe in addition to the threat to Constantinople, to early American Marines who had to fight on the shores of Tripoli because of the Moslem Barbary States that constantly kidnapped, raped, enslaved and killed Westerners, and to Martin Luther who did not advocate pacifism when his German protector was faced with violence. I don’t point to their actions, however, as some sort of automatic justification for a given action. Instead, I simply seek to illustrate that the current approach to Islamic threats and violence generally is not to hide behind modern, yea liberal, notions of non-violence, dialogue, understanding and winning hearts and minds. Nope. It was a good swift poke in the eye, gory, bloody, violent, etc.
As you’ve no doubt surmised, I’m not really an Odinist. Yet I do long for the mind-set it represents. Odinists (not the Nazi types) have a legitimate beef about how Christianity has lead to the current state of secularized liberal culture. Somehow Christianity has been co-opted by Universalism and, consequently, wussification. My reference to Christian, Jewish and pagan forebears was just an attempt to illustrate that we weren’t always wimps and pansies. Charles “The Hammer” Martel was not a wimp. He was a man (and a Christian).
I don’t really think you’re a leftist or universalist, just that you (even I) have been so indoctrinated with its various memes that we don’t even realize how it affects our thinking. It’s in the “educashun” system. It’s in the water. It’s in the air we breath. For example, in your posts above I think I detect that you would ascribe to the notion that we’ve been on one long mostly positive arc of evolution as it relates to correct-thinking about human rights, decency, women’s rights, race relations, whatever. This is necessarily teleological. We’re somehow on this great progressive arc toward utopia (at least insofar as those things are concerned). In other words, most things that went before us are “bad,” but by golly we’re getting better and thus can feel good about feeling good about ourselves.
Trouble is, it ain’t necessarily so. What if they were right and we’re wrong? What if for 1500 years the Christians were right to fight as they did? Maybe we’re on a downward arc and current correct thinking will lead to the devolution or destruction of the civilization that was built over the last 2,500 years.
Yes, there is a vast continuum (or maybe it’s an arc? Hmmm.)
By the way, I’m not a troll. I read all the posts here and have done so for the last few months. I formerly attended an SGM church. And as I mentioned on my previous posts on SGM, I was indeed too rebellious to remain there.
Excuse me but I did not claim to have my on version of the Muslim faith. Read my post again.
No, you cannot make me shudder.
Then why did you use your scare quotes when you named him?
I think I really did make you shudder when I said Pastor Jones. I’m like that.
I don’t want to kill Muslims at all. What I want them to know is that when they come to America or if an American converts to Islam, there are certain tenents of their ideology that will not be tolerated here. And we are watching them closely.
We do that with Mormons and polygamy…even to the point of raiding their compounds and taking away their many children. Because polygamy is illegal and having sex with 14 year old ‘wives” is illegal.
We did it with the Davidians, too.
I propose that Christians put their money where their mouths are and implement a campaign aimed at Muslim women in this country. A safe place for them to go and be freed and there will be people to stand by them and offer them a new family in Christ. And let’s see how Muslims here react to THAT freedom!
See, I did it again.
I think the Koran burning is an empty gesture that gets the pastor his 15 min of fame. That is what I think it is really about.
HOWEVER, In this country we allow all kinds of kooks to have free speech. This is a free speech issue and if we do not see it as that, then we are in big trouble. The strong arm of the Sheriff of that county should scare us all even more.
The pastor would only get ridicule and score from most people. Then his 15 min would be up.
The Muslim reaction to us TALKING about burning a Koran is ridiculous. It is like 8 year old boys over reacting. Threats to kill others because of it? Are these sane people we are talking about? Or evil people? When are we going to stop seeing Muslim responses to such things as normal and people we can negotiate with? We are becoming as insane as they are.
So, where is that line in the sand we are going to have to draw sooner or later? Is it AFTER we have allowed some vestiges of Sharia law to be implemented HERE in their communities? Say goodbye to the Bill of Rights for everyone living here.
“Now, on to the issue of being in Muslim lands and how it relates to Patraeus. According to Petraeus, burning the Koran in Florida will endanger troops in Afghanistan. Aren’t we in a war in Afghanistan which by definition puts the troops in danger every moment of every day? Are the soldiers not in a war zone which by definition is an endangering territory? And this man is a general? Of what?”
the humanitarian workers were killed before the Koran burning was even known about. And they are not soldiers. So, what prompted their killing?
I didn’t make myself clear. I don’t want to kill any, repeat, any Moslems either. I want them kept out of the West so they can’t kill me. See, the choices are (1) allow Moslems into the West (i.e., Bill’s appeasement approach) where they seek to rule and kill us and keep trying to win their hearts and minds, (2) kill the Moslems in and eliminate them from their native lands (which is something akin to what we’ve done in Iraq and Afghanistan), or (3) keep them from the West like we did Communists. I choose door number 3.
Check out Bridgette Gabrielle. She was there and tells it like it is. Or check out Fitna by Geert Wilders about what is going on with Islam in Europe. Or how about Aryaan Hirisi who is under death threats every day of her life for telling it like it is about Islam. BTW: She was genital mutilated by her Islamic family.
There is a fourth choice, of course, which is to do what Pope John Paul II did and accept dhimmitude by kissing the Koran: http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm
Why not use the Koran’s version as supplemented by the Hadith?
There are 1.5 BILLION Muslims. If only 10% are fanatics, that is very serious. As to any an authority on the Quran…… There are different translations but listen to an Islamic Scholar teach about this point. A guy who is also a Christian scholar who puts his education where his mouth is and witnesses to Muslims all the time…debates Islamic scholars, too and LOVES Muslims!
http://www.youtube.com/pfanderfilms#p/c/900CC8F51B717979/11/IkfsSto_KAo
You have to listen to the whole thing. It is only 7 minutes. His other video’s are very educational. And we must educate ourselves because we must evangelize the Muslims.
Why we are in Mohamad Land, because they came over here first and blew up our Twin Towers and murdered thousands. Had they stayed out of this country with their violent, terriorism, and murder; Our soldiers would not be there for our protection. And my opinion is that the best way to terminate Muslem “Extremist” is to hunt them down and eliminate… exactly what our brave young United States Millitary Soldiers are doing. Thank God for them!
You ask why should we respect such a book as the Koran: I have ZERO respect for the Koran and less regard for the Mohammad. However, if burning the Koran could cause my son or daughter to be killed I will not burn the Koran but I do agree with eliminating Muslem Extremist. My regret is I was not young enough to join the US Millitary when New York was attacked. I am a VietNam Veteran.
About our troops already being in a war zone, so it shouldn’t matter what we do? Burn Korans or whatever? That is the wrong way to look at it. Remember when the U.S. ran the Iraq’s out of kuwait.Their soilders gave up fighting by the 10’s of thousands because they had no will to fight.Soilders that fight the hardest are the ones that have a will to fight.Why should we do things to increase our enemies will to fight? I would rather fight someone that really don’t want to fight. I still think David Patraeus is right. I think I see where you’re coming from on saying,the sooner things come to a head the better off we all will be,I don’t think I’ld disagree with that. Surly Boy one other thing that really bothers me is to here politictians and so called christian leaders say islam is a good religion. “Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other;for there is none other name under heaven given amoung men,whereby we must be saved.
Ah yes, George Bush (and many others) and his “religion of peace.” Not much if anything I can disagree with you on donny b. With that said, my preferred solution of keeping all Muslims out of the West might obviate the need to fight them in their own lands. For example, if Mohammed Atta, one of the ringleaders of the 9-11 attacks, would have been turned away precisely because he’s a Muslim, then that would have kept the attack from happening in the first place. However, instead of taking that proactive stance, we feel the need to allow immigration of any and all people to our country, no matter their political ideology. Would China, Japan or Russia allow that? I think not. China, of course, has an indigenous Muslim population; we don’t. So, stop Muslim immigration into the West. Now, if an Islamic nation (instead of individuals) gained the wherewithal to attack us, then I’m all for a gargantuan response to make them only a bad memory. Think about it this way: would Americans of 150 years ago allowed Muslim immigration to the United States? No. Are we smarter or more righteous than them?
Donny:
I think it would be better if Patraeus would say, “We live in a free country of 300 million people. The U.S. does not control the speech of its citizens. Neither the U.S. nor most of the 300 million people in the U.S. burn Korans, and they don’t agree with this man for doing so.”
Instead, Patraeus and Obama and the entire U.S. government has become interested in what one guy with a 50 person church is doing and advises him to do otherwise so it won’t endanger our troops.
Really? Now the General and the President of the U.S. have to try and control the speech and actions of 300 million people or our troops are in danger?
Surely you see that is a poor road to go down.
The better road is to realize that no matter what we do in this country that Muslim fanatics find outrage in almost everything we do. If we have to control the activities of 300 million people so as not to enrage fanatical Muslim sensibilities, we will spend all our days trying not to enrage fanatical Muslims.
We have to realize that even brave generals say things that are not wise.
Amen.
Donny,
I agree with much of what you say and respect you. Thanks for your service.
But if General Patraeus is going to start giving pronouncements to 300 million people in the U.S. about how their conduct or something they might say is going to endanger the troops, we are in real trouble.
The U.S. can’t begin to control what 300 million Americans do or say.
That being the case, why start down that road?
Fred Phelps is a weirdo, and is not going to listen to anything Patraeus or others say.
So why would Obama or Patraeus try to take these guys on? It is extremely unwise.
It will be easier for Patraeus to pacify Afghanistan 10 times over than to try and stop 300 million people in a country with free speech traditions and laws to not exercise free speech.
From:
http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-peaceful-majority-is-irrelevant.html
I used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.
“Very few people were true Nazis” he said, “but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.”
We are told again and again by “experts” and “talking heads” that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is, that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is, that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority” and it is cowed and extraneous.
http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-peaceful-majority-may-be-dangerous.html
Why the peaceful majority might be dangerous
Mubarka is a Canadian born woman of Pakistani parents. She grew up in Toronto among other Canadian children and attended university where she received a degree in commerce. Today she holds a prominent position with a transportation company.
Mubarka used to be as mainstream as any Canadian young adult could be; in fact, those who met her for the first time may have been struck by her vivacious personality. Her effervescence went hand in hand with her distinct Asian beauty which she shamelessly displayed with stylish clothing including the occasional low cut top. Mubarka used to converse for hours over topics as varied as business practices to Canadian politics to contemporary music.
It comes, therefore, as a shock, when one learns what path Mubarka has recently chosen for herself. She will be wedding a Pakistani man … a devout Muslim, whom she has never met but who was chosen for her when she was an infant. Not only that, but she has donned the Hijab for the first time in her life and is strictly observing Muslim tenets. She has chosen subservience to a man and subservience to his religion over the gender freedom offered her by the Western democracy she grew up in, and she’s done so without so much as a whimper of protest.
When asked why she has picked the life of Sharia, Mubarka simply states that it is as Muhammad would will, and that there is no greater prophet than Muhammad. When asked how she will raise her children, Mubarka makes it clear … they will be raised as Muslims first, and Canadians second.
Hardi, is perhaps one of the most pleasant Canadian women anyone could ever meet. In her capacity as a care giver of seniors, she is gentle, loving, and incredibly patient. She laughs deliciously at the kind of comical moments that only seniors can deliver and her mood seems to be permanently stuck on happy. Hardi is, an angel.
Those who encounter Hardi for the first time will be struck not by her character, that comes later, but by the fact that she is virtually covered from head to toe by tradition Indonesian Muslim attire. She covers her entire body with colourful costume that leaves only her hands and face exposed. Hardi is devout, in fact, so devout that during Christmas any appreciation given her by way of gifting must be void of any reference to the season. Furthermore, during quiet moments when Hardi is free to discuss her Muslim faith, it becomes clear that she believes wholeheartedly in the strict observance of Sharia. For her, Islam in it’s pure non-secular form, is truth.
Both Hardi and Mubarka present us with a perplexing conundrum because they are members of what has become known as the “peaceful” Muslim majority. They don’t have a violent bone in their bodies, and are clearly law abiding and productive members of Canadian society. But, they are also both part of a very small minority within Canada where they and their fellow Muslims have very little effect on Canadian politics or on the evolution of Canadian cultural norms. What if though, Hardi and Mubarka were part of a Muslim majority where they and their co-religionists held the power?
Both women are Muslims first and Canadians second. No matter how much respect one may have for either woman’s character, there is little doubt where either would place her loyalty if faced with choosing between the Canadian traditions of liberty for all, or Sharia. There is also little doubt that if they were part of a majority, they would acquiesce to the demands of the Muslim clerical class and choose Sharia for all Canadians.
It is therefore irrelevant in the grand scheme of things whether or not Hardi or Mubarka are “good” people; most people on the planet are, no matter their religion, race, or culture. What matters in the greater sense, is that as parts of the Muslim collective, neither woman would set aside her Muslim beliefs in order to safeguard and protect the full rights of non-Muslims to live as they choose. What’s even more disturbing, is that both women have experienced the gender freedoms afforded them in Canada, yet both have voluntarily resigned themselves to the greater Muslim collective.
As long as each woman is part of a small minority within Canada, she offers Canada much; but once she becomes part of a significant minority, or heaven forbid, a majority, she becomes dangerous. Why? Because Muslims wherever they form a majority choose Islamic norms over the broader more tolerant standards of the West. If given a chance, as has been clearly demonstrated the world over, they would unravel hundreds of years of hard fought human rights gains and replace them with the medieval practices of their faith. As such, both Hardi and Mubarka are simply bit players in a monstrous and destructive Muslim vortex that would drag civilization backwards hundreds of years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7OtbNbKnw4&feature=player_embedded#!
Listen to this woman who lived in a country that the Muslims took over. Do people realize that Lebonan used to be a Christian country?
We cannot give in to any Muslim demands…even to keep a false peace. We allow Kooks to have free speech. Muslims DON”T
Lydia, you like many others I have read make excellent points about the nature and dangers of Islam. You’ve certainly identified the problems between Westerners and Muslims. Indeed, Hardi and Mubarka will grow even more brazen in their piety as the Muslim population grows in Canada, just as Muslims in France, for example, shut down Paris streets just because they can. http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/August/Islamization-of-Paris-a-Warning-to-the-West/
But aside from appearing to advocate that Muslims be watched, which has the decided disadvantage in that they can escape the watch and still commit mayhem and murder, we in the West are still at risk by their presence here. It seems as though it’s hard for most Americans, at least those I speak with, to get their mind around the easiest solution of all; to wit, a concept we can call “Separationism.” I mentioned it above. It simply means a full stop of ALL Muslim immigration to the West. It also means we encourage all Muslims currently living in the West to go back to their countries of origin if they came here as immigrants. It’s what our ancestors would have done; it’s the cheapest solution; and it saves the most lives, both ours and theirs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w
By a non Christian. And this teaching on Islam is truth but most Americans do not realize these truths.
Surly Warrior of Thor and Lydia
Just saw interesting poll results. One month after 9/11, the majority of Americans had favorable views of Muslims. However, as of this year, the majority of Americans have an unfavorable view of Muslims. Why is this?
I know Surly will disagree with me but I have always believed that immigration moderates the view of those coming here.Just like the Israelites who were to be an example of the people of God to the world so is the United States a beacon of freedom to an increasingly polarized world.
However, I am also very concerned that one yahoo in Florida can set off violent eruptions around the Middle East. We have militant hate groups marching all the time in the US-KKK, etc. Although I find these groups despicable and my son gets lectures on the heinous views of these groups, I don’t go out and shoot a guy in a white sheet.
For me the struggle is how to be a beacon for freedom in the world when some idiot does some antiMuslim act, because this is a free country, and this can cause harm to our troops and other Americans.How can we exist under this sort of threat? We cannot, nor should we control every sort of idiotic behavior.
I am friendly with some wonderful Muslims who do not take the violent approach that is found in the Koran.I like them and will remain friends with them. I watched a Muslim man, who through the witness of his wife and other faithful Christians, give his life to Christ.
There are good (and I am not speaking about the issue of sin here since all of us are fallen) and decent Muslims. I don’t want to get into an argument about how they interpret the Koran. They do interpret it peacefully even if some would say they are not interpreting it as it is written. It is just like supposed Christians who interpret the Bible to say all sorts of things that we know to be false.
I am perplexed and do not like the extreme approach in either direction. My question is trying to see if it is possible to find a way between the two extremes.Paul gives us an example of how to witness to those who follow false Gods and did not advocate violence. He also did not say to send the idol worshippers away.He appealed to them.
I am also sensitive about this issue due to my Russian background. My father started school in the US in first grade. He could not speak English. He told me horror stories of how he was accused of being a “commie” and called all sorts of names. It needs to be stressed that Communism was a real and present threat in those days. The Communists were hell bent in taking over the world.There were many who told my father and his family to go back to Russia. At that time, there were members of the Communist party in the United States who did want to take over.
But, America was the beacon of freedom in a dark world. The consistent witness of this country in terms of personal freedom, along with excellent work by law enforcement to limit illegal activities along with the internet which gave examples to the Soviet Union of freedom and prosperity, led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Ronald Reagan along with Margaret Thatcher stood up to the Soviet goons and lived to see the collapse of communism. Even China, albeit much slower, is incorporating many Western ideals.
The Middle East has been closed to freedom but, with the Internet and greater communications, the ideals of freedom are slowly affecting those countries as well. The authorities are so scared that they are banning the use of Blackberrys in certain countries. But, they will not be able to do that forever.Banning something only leads to a black market for some entrepreneur to supply the banned item.
I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I believe that there are dangerous verses in the Koran.But I believe that the truth of the Gospel, along with a concept of personal freedom, can and will overcome the evil violence of this book.
There is nothing *illegal* about the Muslims building their mosque — the point is that they are being dishonest about their true intentions and motives behind it…and just as they have the freedom to propose building the structure, we (and Christians) have the freedom in this country to challenge the decision! (peacefully)
* FACT: MANY of their *mosques* throughout the country are called “cultural centers” — and of course they want it to be open to visitors to “learn more about Islam,” It IS a proselytizing faith after all!
* FACT: “Building a mosque on the site of their conquests is part of the Islamic tradition.” — Indeed, NO religion is “perfect.” Islam is obviously not the only religion with a “dark side.” That being said, the mosque-building at target locations of conquest IS a unique distinction OF the religious tradition! (As I mentioned before, think “Dome of the Rock” in Jerusalem, or the Hagia Sophia (formerly a church) in Istanbul…(formerly Constantinople.)
* FACT: People forget Islam is more than just a spiritual faith or guide to a personal way of life — the Quran lays the groundwork for *political* system in which the ultimate goal is global domination and the implementation of Sharia law.
* FACT: As a lot of the earlier posts describe -> Sharia Law is WHOLLY contradictory to the principles upon which Western Civilization was founded, including those based in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Even “extreme” Old Testament Law is wholly contrary to Quranic principles.
* FACT: As many of you noted, radical elements of Islam are NOT confined to the Middle East or Asia! Muslim tensions are in fact highest in *EUROPE* and they continue to escalate! In addition to the CBN coverage about entire public streets in Paris being closed off so Muslim men can pray, the French Government is *currently* debating the extent to which they should instill and apply a burka ban…
FACT: The Muslim birthrate is multiple times higher than that of native Europeans.
* Most Important FACT: Our GOD is *Sovereign* and His *Son*, the LORD Jesus Christ REIGNS and nothing cannot stop the advancement of His eternal kingdom…Muslims are in need of a Savior just like all of us. Jesus loves them no differently from us, and the door to eternal life is open for them too! 🙂
* I meant “we *as* Christians” have a right to challenge the Ground Zero mosque proposal, not “we (and Christians.)”
* Here’s is a link covering the “burqa ban” discussions going on in several countries:
“Burqa bans grow fashionable in Europe”
http://article.wn.com/view/2010/07/04/Burqa_bans_grow_fashionable_in_Europe/
* Here’s a link discussing Christian Evangelism in the Muslim World:
“Muslim ‘numbers game’ deadly for Christian converts, says expert”
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/muslim.numbers.game.deadly.for.christian.converts.says.expert/18807.htm
“I know Surly will disagree with me but I have always believed that immigration moderates the view of those coming here.Just like the Israelites who were to be an example of the people of God to the world so is the United States a beacon of freedom to an increasingly polarized world.”
Actually, Dee, this is not the case. Immigration is NOT moderating the views at all. It is just the opposite because most are not assimilating.
Most of the terrorists were educated and recruited while in the West. They were pretty moderate before that. If you listen to Bridgette Gabriel you will see the same things happened in Lebanon that we are allowing to happen here.
Listen to missionaries in Muslim countries. It is nothing like it is in the West. It is complicated and most people cannot see it because our paradigm is nothing like theirs. The people in muslims countries know that the humanitarian aid workers are there because the powers to be allow it. It is a whole different paradigm.
What about Shabazz, for example? Who lived here among us and tried to blow up Times Square? Or Ft Hood? How did living here moderate their views?
I am also friends with many Muslims and have been around them since age 11. I do know this from experience….they are wonderful people but their allegiance if first and foremost to whatever they are told by their religious leaders. That is why they can live in the West for 20 years and turn their back on all of it overnight. That is why they can be your great friend and when the situation turns, they become your enemy. We do not understand it. Umma…it is not nation state as we understand it. We also do not understand Taqiyya. I came face to face with this because of something that happened to our family in 1980 and also again on 9/11. On 9/11 a Muslim doctor practicing for 20 years in a small town south of my city could not contain himself on 9/11. he literally danced with joy as he and his staff watched the planes going into the towers. His staff was STUNNED. He had lived among them for 20 years. Educated here…picniced with their families. And he was celebrating! They had NO IDEA his TRUE feelings about America. He had always acted as if he loved them and this country.
If we shut down freedom of speech for a kook in Fla…it will only progress into more boundaries that might offend Muslims. Remember, the Koran was NEVER burned! It was only TALKED about and look at the threats of violence from just that? Where does it end…giving in more? What else will offend them?
There is no concept of personal freedom for Muslims. Even the ones who have been educated and lived here for decades. And people cannot see this. I am not willing to allow freedom of speech to be limited for kooks if it offends Muslims or because I am afraid of their threats. That is appeasing and asking the alligator to eat you last. Not one inch should be given against our civil laws.
Lydia
I agree with you. I do not and will not ever, never , ever, advocate shutting down any civil rights, even to appease. I am actually becoming more concerned that we cannot make a difference in the Middle East because we cannot, and should not, shut up even the yahoo pastor. Please don’t misunderstand me.
My viewpoint is in a state of flux. It is actually the situation down in Florida that is causing this to occur. We will never be able to (not should we) control our speech and I am concerned that the people in the MIddle East are so unreasonable that they cannot accept that we have inherent freedoms in this country.
I am wondering how this will all end. We shouldn’t control speech and actions so violence with the Middle East seems inevitable. This is something I came to only this week. In other words, my view is changing but I haven’t figured it all out yet.
In some ways, what that idiot did down in Florida is to clarify some issues for me.
“* Most Important FACT: Our GOD is *Sovereign* and His *Son*, the LORD Jesus Christ REIGNS and nothing cannot stop the advancement of His eternal kingdom…Muslims are in need of a Savior just like all of us. Jesus loves them no differently from us, and the door to eternal life is open for them too!”
Radiance, I think this is the real test for the Body of Christ. I would give up freedom if I thought it would save Muslims for eternal life. But I know too much of their “collective mindset” and I know the exact opposite would happen. they have a very honor/shame mentality that is so opposite of what we understand. They respect boldness. So, our witness must be bold and we must know what the Koran says. Think bully. Is there ever a time to defy a bully? Yes, to protect the innocent whom they do not care is killed. Even their own.
I think people have lost sight of facts. the detainees at Gitmo sang like canaries…what does this tell us about their mindset? It says a lot.
I am seriously concerned that people are equating “talking” about a Koran burning with violence from Muslim groups. How is it the same thing?
We do not really understand history in this country. It could be because we are so young. We rarely connect dots. Europe is appeasing the Muslim population. Britain now has some forms of Sharia law in quite a few courts. there are parts of France, Muslim communities, were the French police are not allowed to go!
The Middle East is lost, I am afraid. When we did not defend Lebanon, we sent a huge message. Do people forget that Lebanon was a majority Christian country with a totally open doors policy? The Paris of the ME?
But we have elements here that hate Israel, the only democracy left in the ME. A country that allows Arabs to be elected to the Knesset! How many Muslim countries have Jewish lawmakers?
I must confess,I’ve not been watching the news for the last several days.So I’am not really up on current events.The way it’s sounding,Obama and Patraeus probably should have kept there mouth shut.By them talking about it,it just pushed Jones out in the spotlight more.
Thankfully, not ALL Muslims are as brainwashed and tightly gripped by the hand of “Allah”/Satan as the ones you describe from Gitmo, and even with regards to Gitmo, we have to remember that nothing is impossible with GOD…
Anyhow, there are younger Muslims in Asian countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia for example, who are relatively secularized by the influences of globalization and Western culture, and are therefore more open-minded.
And then there is of course, THIS man:
“Hamas’ Christian convert: I’ve left a society that sanctifies terror”
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hamas-christian-convert-i-ve-left-a-society-that-sanctifies-terror-1.250831
It was not ISLAM’s conquest, but Al Qaeda’s conquest. People need to realize the divisions within Islam. No Christian wants to be tagged with responsibility for the atrocities committed by any Christian anywhere in the world.
Muslims working in and visiting the World Trade Center on 9/11 were killed in the attack, and there was a prayer room set aside for Muslims in one of the Towers.
If a church, synagogue, YMCA, etc., could be built within five blocks of the site of the Towers, then a mosque should be allowed there as well.
However, it is not a mosque, but a community center containing a prayer room for Muslims to conduct their five-times daily prayer, much like the space that was in one of the Towers.
Arce
I was hoping you would weigh in. I have been struggling with this issue.What do you think about the threats of violence all over the world because of one stupid man in Florida? Also, why should stupidity cause such a response? This has been deeply bothering me. Thoughts?
I respectfully disagree and the evidence is on my side. Hopium is on your side.
How is it that Al Qaeda is differentiated from Islam? Moreover, I wonder if you heard Imam Rauf’s interview yesterday by Christian Amanpour? If not, you should take a listen. You can find it here: http://abcnews.go.com/thisweek
When asked why it would be a problem to move the “mosque” to another location in New York, the Imam said that he was gravely concerned about Muslims’ reactions to the “headlines in the Muslim world that Islam is under attack in America. Got that? Under attack. Also note that the Imam says that the radicals in the United States (you know, the nut jobTM pastor — sorrry Bill [when I say “Imam Rauf” does that make you shudder/should I use scare quotes?] — in Florida) have provoked the “radicals” in Islam. Got that? It’s our fault. Why didn’t the Imam comment on what a stupid, over the top reaction that would be? Why didn’t he criticize it? We criticize our nut jobsTM.
I don’t get your argument about Muslims dying in the attack on the WTC, Arce. What conclusion is to be drawn from that fact? Is that supposed to support the notion that the attack was perpetrated by some other entity rather than Islam?
Like Lydia says, it’s apparent that the stark contrasts in culture does not moderate Muslims’ views. Rather, the opposite is apparent. The decadence of many aspects of Western culture, coupled with the non-stop drumbeat of the discrimination/victimization meme propagated by media, the educational establishment and government, serve to further radicalize Muslim immigrants and, perhaps more importantly, Muslims who were born in the West. Lydia gives some examples. There are many others. Recall the two Scottish terrorists who used a Jeep as a instrument of kaffir, infidel destruction?
Separationism is really our only effective solution. It might be too late for that in many parts of Europe. It’s not too late for that in North America.
Dee, my opinion as to why there’s less goodwill toward Muslims now than immediately after 9/11 is that the veil, as it were, has been lifted from the lumpen-masses’ eyes. We now understand, despite George Bush’s and our overlords’ lying protestations to the contrary, that Islam is NOT a religion of peace and that its adherents, like Major Nidal Malik Hasan, are likely to kill at any time because our very existence as non-Muslims offends Allah and Mohammed.
Surly
I know that you feel quite strongly about your position. Your opinion is shared by others. However. I would ask that you consider keeping direct insults to a minimum. There are some very intelligent, good people who comment on this site who have read extensively on this subject who have come to the opposite conclusion of you. I know you think they are deceived. I am sure that they think you are as well but the ones I am thinking of have not insulted you.
Lydia, for example, holds to a viewpoint more in line with yours but she does not disparage others.
I understand the viewpoint of separatism but I think it is most radical to send “all Muslims back where they came from” as you have suggested. This sentiment has been used in many other past situations, including sending back all Germans, Japanese, Russians (my father routinely received such suggestions, bless his heart), and African Americans.And yes I do understand that Islam embraces a form of governing that is part of their faith structure.
Before you get mad at me, I am not suggesting that we become Neville Chamberlains.Appeasement rarely works. However, it is reasonable to try peaceful solutions to see if they work. If they do not, as is quite possible in this current situation, other methods need to be applied. My guess is that neither side will be pleased with the response. Some will say slow down and others will say move faster. Me, I don’t know.The solution seems to require the wisdom of Solomon and there do not appear to be any Solomons currently in power in the US.
Take a look at Ronald Reagan. He stood up to the Soviet Block, calling it an evil empire. He was disparaged but he was right and his methods were one factor in leading to the demise of a horrible government. So, sometimes counterintuitive works.
Once again, I appeal to Paul’s example in which he did not smash the idols but offered up a cogent apologetic as to the reality of the Gospel. The Roman empire continued to persecuted the Christians.
One of my pastors once said that we are an end result oriented people. He said that God is more interested in the process that we take to achieve that end result. If we hurt people along the road to getting our way then we may need to reevaluate.
Chastisement accepted. But are you referring to my accusation re Bush or my tweaking of Bill? The latter I would think. If you mean Bill, Bill, I’m sorry. My lame attempts at humor apparently look like insults, and for that (both my ineptitude at humor and the fact it was taken as an insult), again, I’m sorry. If you mean Bush and our overlords, I’m a little non-plussed but I’ll refrain from that in futuro.
I really don’t get mad (again, my poor attempts at communicating I suppose). However, the distinction that you allude to makes all the difference. It’s not apples to apples to compare the misplaced sentiment of sending back Germans, Japanese, Russians or African Americans. We readily sent back Russians who also were Communist infiltrators (I don’t advocate irrational McCarthyism by saying this). We also justifiably sent back Germans who were Nazi infiltrators. The Allies also executed a few. We also killed our fair share of German Shepherds — human stupidity appears to know few bounds.
So, in looking at apples and oranges, note that I don’t advocate sending back Arabs (an immutable characteristic), just Arab immigrants who are also Muslims (or any Muslim immigrant — Persian, Malaysian, Indonesian, African, Australian, whatever). Being an Arab, for example, is an immutable characteristic. Islam is not an immutable characteristic.
I recognize that most modern Western minds cannot abide this notion. A couple of years ago mine couldn’t either.
I don’t comment much on spiritual solutions to these problems. This is not because I don’t believe in them. Instead, it’s because they’ve never worked in the past because the majority of folks ain’t gonna adopt them. Nor are the folks who control our political systems in the West. Pessimistic, even cynical, realism we’ll call it.
Arce, if you read no other column on this subject, I pray you read this opinion piece: http://www.dailyinterlake.com/opinion/columns/frank/article_a039b358-be25-11df-9a35-001cc4c03286.html?login_success=true
I realize it won’t convince everyone but it will at least make them think.
Here’s a quote from it:
“The attacks on the World Trade Center did not happen by accident. They are part and parcel of the 1,400 year history of Islam, which has one goal and one goal only–to bring the entire world under submission to the words of the Prophet Mohammad and sharia law.
Most people, however, will never say so. Moslems will not say so because they do not want to admit the truth. Liberals will not say so because the truth offends their sensibility. Conservatives will not say so because they know they will be called bigots. Christians will not say so because they believe they are not supposed to judge. Americans will not say so because they think the Constitution will protect them from any and all enemies.
So if no one else will say it, then let’s listen to the “moderate” imam who is the main spokesperson for the Ground Zero mosque–Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.”
FWIW, I don’t advocate removing resident Muslims forcibly. I do, however, advocate giving them incentives to leave. The most important thing to do is to stop any and all future Muslim immigration into the West. Perhaps then assimilation will have time to work its magic.
There is a way to give incentive and it starts with the incentive to come here. A typical Muslim family has about 6-8 people and they are given food stamps, medical and housing upon arrival. But there is a problem…as the charities who have helped them settle here are finding….they are turning down 9-10.00/hr jobs because they MIGHT have to come in contact with pork products or alcohol. They refuse hotel jobs of all kinds because of this. Over the summer, she had 27 young Muslim men turn down these jobs.
We really are a nice people, eh? A voc rehab counselor was showing me the difference between 18 year old immigrant and an 18 year old American citizen foster child. The foster child is given 50 bucks by the government and told good luck. The immigrant is given medical care, housing and food stamps and helped with finding a job…if they will take them.
These things are happening and I am sure some will call me a racist for pointing out facts. So be it.
Hi Surly
Here is the problem that I have with your proposal in regards to all Muslims. There are some Muslims, I don’t know how many, who do not advocate violence or imposition of Muslim laws. Now, whether or not they are “real” Muslims is not the issue. They would define themselves as Muslims just like there are Christians who define themselves as such and don’t know John 3:16 from the Beatles.
I know one Muslim man who is now a Christian. He was a convert in this country. Just like some Russians who immigrated were indeed Communists, some Muslims who have immigrated are indeed not radical. Please note that I used the word “some.”
As for the spiritual side of things, I have two responses in this life. Occasionally they are synergistic. I believe that committed Christians should look to the Bible for guidance in how to approach our witness.How we then integrate that with our politics is a bit of a sticky wicket.
Some, like CS Lewis, believed that we could not force Scriptural admonitions on unbelievers. So, he advocated for allowing for divorce because he believed that only Christians could successfully live out the spiritual commitment in marriage.
I must admit that I often struggle with how to be a Christian in the public square.
I respect your thoughts and opinions, Dee. They were once my own. What I’ve come to see, however, is that sharia is the work of Islam, not radical Islam. This, I believe, is why you don’t see very many so-called moderate Muslims reject so-called radical Islam’s conduct. The nice thing about this country, at least in its current iteration, is that we can agree to disagree.
So someone else’s stupidity is an excuse for us to be stupid. We are supposed to be the enlightened people, who serve a God of love, mercy and grace. The reaction of the Community Center in New York, two blocks from the edge of the supposed ground zero, five blocks from the site of the towers, and not within site of any of it, has been over the top, extreme, stupid and hateful. I would note that Muslims do not burn Bibles. They respect the Bible.
If one were to exclude the extremists in Christianity, Mormonism and Islam, and focus on the core 75-80 percent, and study the theology contained therein, it can be said that Islam looks more like a sect of Christianity than Mormonism.
Imagine if all the world thought of Christianity as the idiot in Florida, the group that protests military funerals as a protest of homosexuality, the murderous Crusades, and those in our military who committed murders of non-combatants in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the former Yugoslavia; throw in Dick Cheney and Timothy McVey, and those who have spray painted places of worship! If that was what you heard that Christianity meant, would you not also protest?
This is specious ranting and does not deserve the space it takes up. Al Qaeda was originally created by Bin Laden to try to topple the Saudi royal family. Because the U.S. provides military hardware and other support to the Saudi royal family, Bin Laden chose to attack the friends of his enemy.
The history of Islam is one of constant fighting among Moslems, with each other, except when some outsider, like the Crusaders in Medieval times and the Soviets and the West in modern times, is involved. Then we become the enemy that allows some surface unity. But that did not even occur in Iraq, which is the country that has long had the worst inter-sectarian violence.
It is the same bleep that “Manifest Destiny” was and is.
Stop drinking the Fox news and minion Kool-Aid. We have all been sold a bill of goods by “Ergun” Caner, a demonstrated and proved liar, and others like him.
It is NOT insulting to the survivors of 9/11. That is the problem. There are Muslim families who lost loved ones who were working and visiting in the buildings on 9/11, and there was a Muslim prayer room in one tower, and a space used by the restaurant workers in the other tower for prayer, b/c they did not have time to go to and from the other tower.
Sometimes when someone feels “insulted”, it is because they choose to be. I am offended that they are offended, because it is unAmerican and unChristian. The continued protests are offensive to me and should be to every other patriotic Christian American.
Never watch Faux News — can’t stand it. Don’t like Bush; don’t like Cheney; we should not be in Afghanistan and should have never invaded Iraq. I agree with every word in the article I cited. In fact, it doesn’t go far enough. It’s like Robert Spencer and Geller who, while correctly identifying the problem, never take the next step and propose a solution.
Muslims don’t burn Bibles? See this: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/285123/christians_in_gaza_fear_for_their_lives.html?cat=9 Just do a simple internet search and you’ll find numerous other examples.
Your ideology appears to be clouding your critical thinking skills. Your facts are also incorrect with respect to the “murderous” Crusades. See “God’s Battalions” by Rodney Stark. Moreover, what about the murderous colonialist exploits beginning with the Umayyad Dynasty and continuing for hundreds of years through the Ottoman Empire? Truly murderous exploits, those.
Great Article by IBN Warraq on how Imam Rauf talks out of both sides of his mouth. HEre is an excerpt about Sharia:
Sharia is totally incompatible with the U.S. Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948. Women are inferior under Islamic law — their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted; they cannot marry non-Muslims. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries also have inferior status under Islamic law; they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammad, who said that “two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia,” non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build houses of worship, possess religious texts, etc. Non-believers or atheists in Muslim countries do not have “the right to life”; all the major law schools, whether Sunni or Shia, agree that they are to be killed. (Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the 17 great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, adultery, etc.) Slavery is recognized as legitimate in the Koran. Muslim men are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves, and they are allowed to take possession even of married female slaves. One does not have the right to change one’s religion if one is born into a Muslim family; here is how the great commentator Baydawi sees the matter: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard.” And here are the punishments in store for transgressors against the Holy Law: amputation, flogging, crucifixion, and stoning to death.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/246269/imam-rauf-s-books-ibn-warraq?page=2
Rauf also makes a clear distinction between the principles guiding a Muslim judge and those guiding a Western one: “The Muslim judge explicitly
‘reports to God.’ The judge who sits in a Western court is only explicitly responsible to the Constitution, the interpretations of a civil law and its rules.” Hence by its very nature, Islam cannot abide by a separation of religion and state, and is diametrically opposed to the political principles enshrined in the Constitution. Rauf, as a Muslim steeped in Islamic theology, cannot possibly relegate religion entirely to the personal; he must forever strive to introduce sharia as a guiding political principle in the public sphere, and eventually replace all man-made laws with God-given ones. In this sense, for Rauf, there cannot be a “moderate Muslim,” since all true Muslims by definition must demand to live under God-given laws, embodied in sharia.
Rauf himself notes the totalitarian nature of Islam: “The Shari’ah thus covers every field of law — public and private, national and international — together with enormous amounts of material that Westerners would not regard as law at all, because the basis of the Shari’ah is the worship of, and obedience to, God through good works and moral behavior.”
Very informative,thanks young lady.
I have never wanted Jones or anyone’s rights taken from them.Thats part of being free,having freedom of speech.We should all want to fight to keep that.I was speaking from a moral perspective,just as if I had a muslim for a neighbor,I should’nt go out in the yard,yell loud enough to get his attention saying “look at me I’am going to burn your stupid holy book.Basically this is what Jones did. Us as cristians should’nt act that way.Matt:7-12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,do ye even so to them:for this is the law and the prophets. As Matt:5: 44 love even our enemies.
I believe you are right Oboma and Petraeus probally should have kept their mouth shout on the isue,and not gave Jones such notoriety.However I do believe Petraeus was right about at least one thing.You can do things to make your enemy fight harder.I know that to be true,because I had two older brothers,and I have the scares to prove it.
September 16, 2010
The Sydney Morning Herald Reports:
“Contentious veil ban sails through French Senate”
PARIS: The French Senate has overwhelmingly passed a bill banning the burqa-style Islamic veil on public streets and other places, a measure that affects fewer than 2000 women but is widely seen as a symbolic defence of French values.
The Senate voted 246 to 1 in favour of the bill in a final step towards making the ban a law – though it now must pass France’s constitutional watchdog.
READ MORE:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/contentious-veil-ban-sails-through-french-senate-20100915-15cqo.html
Thank heavens someone is finally taking a stand against this misogynistic, complete veiling of women.
It is also becoming a security issue. A friend of mine saw it this last summer working with immigrants and having some form of identification that showed their entire face. It was a big problem with food stamps, etc, and using different ID numbers for the same person who was covered for “religious” reasons.
Interesting development at WND’s “Taking America Back” conference. See http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=204865
An attendee makes (in my mind) a very reasonable suggestion — for an immediate moratorium on Muslim immigration into the U.S. — and receives automatic spontaneous applause. Unfortunately, Alan Keyes and others respond from the podium with (again, in my mind) universalist pablum. At least the idea is gaining some traction.
Surley boy, I also saw today some clips where the ground zero mosque Imam was saying very different things to an American audience than he was to a ME audience of Muslims concerning why the mosque was to built near ground zero.
Arafat did the exact same thing all the time but that was back when the mainstream media would not cover it and online was not as advanced.
People do not want to believe that it is considered a virtue to lie to unbelievers in Islam.
The moritoriam on Muslim immigrants will not happen anytime soon but it should. We should make it clear we will NOT stand for discrimination of women with any form of Sharia law.
Did you hear about the middle school (was it in Calif?) who took a class to a mosque as a field trip? Think about it: The girls could not even go inside! Yet this is considered a proper field trip…it is indoctrination. And these are liberals who claim to care about women’s rights!
There are those who argue from the proof-text that Islam actively encourages its adherents to deceive the kuffar. Of course, having read the text, I agree. Hence, the Imam is acting in conformity not only with his bad character but also his religious compulsion.
I did hear about the middle school. Beyond sick. The Imam there was proselytizing quite forcefully in his “sermonette” to the children. In my more morose moments, I don’t really hold out any hope for us or, more specifically, our children and grandchildren. The liberals have won. The thing is, from their victory comes defeat. The incongruity of it all somehow escapes them. Women’s rights will most certainly take the back seat in the bus when sharia is imposed.
How, on a blog that exposes the outrageous arrogance, greed and hypocrisy of Christians, does anyone who calls themselves a Christian feel entitled to condemn Islam’s faults? Are you now suddenly Muslims who understand the Koran and the history of Islam and can speak about its faults? So who are you condemning but yourselves? People here who call themselves Christians are constantly condemning Islam for doing the very same things that have been done and are still done in the name of Christianity, making themselves hypocrites, not Christians.
Lydia
That genital mutilation thing is terrible. I think the most heinous thing about radical Islam is the treatment of women. So many feminist groups here in the US ignore this aspect of things. i called into a local talk show and lambasted the feminist who was ignoring this whole issue. She was uncomfortable and id not answer why she expresses no concern for women in that part of the world.