Remember Jim Bakker? Countless people do. However, if you are too young to know about Bakker and the scandal that befell him (not so different from Tiger Woods), you really need to inform yourself. A good place to start is the Wikipedia article which can be found at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker
As a teenager, I was an occasional viewer of the Praise the Lord broadcast during the 1970s and as a college student in early 1980s. Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were the first televangelists I can really remember, although they did follow in the footsteps of Oral Roberts and others.
I grew up in a town just three hours from Heritage USA — the Bakker’s massive complex. Here’s an excerpt from the Wikipedia article that describes it:
By the early 1980s the Bakkers had built Heritage USA in Fort Mill, South Carolina (south of Charlotte), then the third most successful theme park in the U.S., and a satellite system to distribute their network 24 hours a day across the country. Contributions requested from viewers were estimated to exceed $1 million a week, with proceeds to go to expanding the theme park and mission of PTL.
I must admit that I was skeptical about the Bakkers at the time. It seemed to be only about MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!! Interestingly, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were co-founders of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, (TBN), along with Paul and Jan Crouch. Who knew that TBN would team up with charismatic preachers to promote what would become known as “The Prosperity Gospel”…
Here’s what I consider to be the most important information in the Wiki article on Jim Bakker:
Bakker has renounced his past teachings on prosperity theology, they were wrong. In his 1996 book, I Was Wrong, he admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was in prison, and that it made him realize he had taken certain passages out of context – passages which he had used as “proof texts” to back up his prosperity teachings. He wrote:
“The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushd to think that I led so many people astray. I was appalled that I could have been so wrong, and I was deeply grateful that God had not struck me dead as a false prophet.”
It’s fascinating to listen to today’s prosperity preachers and remember that Jim Bakker was probably more prominent and more respected than they. Oh, how the mighty can fall!!!
At the age of 49, Jim Bakker was sentenced to a 45 year prison term. He was truly a broken man. As the Wiki article explains, Bakker served a five year prison term and then was released. It seems God used those difficult years to teach Jim Bakker about “true Christianity”.
Bakker spoke out AGAINST the prosperity gospel, which he helped establish, on September 17, 2008. PLEASE take time to watch this 30-minute video. The introduction lasts about 7-1/2 minutes, and then Bakker talks for the duration. He says some stunning things, and one can only hope that the prosperity preachers are listening (although we seriously doubt it!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZEmPKj_EAI&feature=fvw
Dee and I would appreciate your candid comments after watching this video.
Bakker is at it again. This time he is using the fear gospel. His new show is more infomercial than anything else. Thousand dollar survival buckets and water filters and hundred dollar cheap jewelry. I dont think Bakker learned a cotton picking thing from his previous troubles. He even now somewhat claims to be the victim.
I used to see Jim and Tammy Faye on TV years ago and thought they were hokey and probably dishonest then. Even though I thought he was a complete goofball, I was sad to see what happened to him.
I am glad that you posted this material, so don’t get me wrong. But I never cared for anything the guy had to say before his “fall from grace” and while I am very grateful that he has learned the error of his way (I’ll take his word for that), he is completely unqualified by his life and actions to be a teacher, prophet, leader etc. in any church.
He would be welcome in our church. But we would probably ask him to serve quietly in some ministry that did not involve public teaching, speaking or writing.
And we would NEVER allow this guy into our pulpit.
It’s not that he is not forgiven by God. We would assume, based on his testimony, that he is. And he is welcome in the fellowship. None of us is any better than he.
But he has forfeited the right to lead. He does not have “a good reputation among them that are without” (people outside the church). So he has to serve somewhere else.
And, assuming he is truly repentent, he would humbly accept his new role and be grateful.
But if he starts with any language such as, “Well, David did not lose his kingdom after he sinned…”, then repentence may not have had its full work in his life.
I hear lots of guys who fall while in the ministry reference David and make a similar quote.
I always respond – “Well, you are not David. I didn’t see Samuel, God’s ordained prophet annoint you.”
Anyone who would use that concept and compare themselves to David – or Abraham, Moses, Isael, the prophets etc. must really think highly of themselves.
And that’s the problem. It’s not just the sin that brought them down, it’s the attitude – which is the hardest thing to change.
Anonymous,
I agree with everything you have shared. There is no question that Jim Bakker disqualified himself as a minister; however, he is to be commended for speaking out against these charlatans who masquerade as Christian leaders. Why are so few pastors speaking out about these false prophets?
“Why are so few pastors speaking out about these false prophets?”
Jim Bakker got caught, the others haven’t.
I agree with Bill’s comment – not only is Jim Bakker preaching the gospel of fear and selling survivalist products in what amounts to a daily one-hour infomercial, he had a guest on his program last week preaching the prosperity gospel again. Quoting Deut. 1:11, he gave a “testimony” about how he had profited a thousand times over after giving $111 and asking for the Lord’s “favor” in return. Bakker had a big banner made up prior to the show declaring the “Year of the Lord’s Favor” – which seems to be an astronomical return on any “love offering” made to his “ministry.” He offered no teaching on the Jubilee Year, noted nothing about God’s justice, just asked for checks for $111 for the “favor offering.” Of course, you could still choose to give $1000 in return for MRE’s and water purification bottles . . . etc. I was appalled. From 2008 when he preached this sermon to the beginning of 2010, he’s right back where he was at PTL – “send me money and God will bless you.”
Thanks for the info. As I mentioned in the post, I was skeptical of Jim Bakker during the PTL years. However, I believe his message condemning the prosperity preachers is beneficial.
I have never watched Bakker’s broadcast (other than seeing this video), and I never plan to tune in. I guess you can’t teach an old dog new tricks…
I thought that the message by J.Bakker was absolutely wonderful. He was on the money about the false prosperity gospel and I believe led by the Spirit in his presentation. It was so great to see the Lord move in a person’s life and bring him from a lie to the truth. I am appalled by the “look down your nose” attitude of the other posts, do they really think that they have lived so much better in the eyes of God just because their sin was not made public?
Thanks for your comment, F.Sears. May blind eyes be opened in the prosperity gospel crowd.
There are a few pastors over at Sovereign Grace Ministries who need to hear your words.
In reading some of your comments concerning Jim Bakker, I find myself more concerned about you than I do Jim Bakker. Since when did God appoint any of you to cast judgment on Jim Bakker by saying he has forfeited his right to do anything God leads him to do? Do you believe that God only partially forgave him like you are doing? I watch Jim Bakker every day on TV and I see a man who is leading and teaching young people to build television ministries for God. If you think what he is saying about the perils that are soon coming on this nation because of our sin of condoning homosexuality and murdering babies is untrue, then you had better open your eyes and ears because it is happening, and what Jim Bakker is telling you is the truth.
I watched a video last night entitled “Jim Bakker Renounces The Prosperity Gospel As A Lie.” I was surprised that Jim Bakker was finally speaking the truth and admitting that the movement he helped get started was wrong and not in agreement with the words of Jesus.
A very special person that I sent the link to said that she didn’t get to see the video because it has now been pulled by Kenneth Copeland Ministries. I went to where I had posted the video in a PM and, indeed, it now says, “This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Kenneth Copeland ministries.” I’m posting the embed code here to see if you can at least see that much.
This shows you the level the evangelical “Christians” will go to in order to silence the truth. What Jim Bakker did in the past was reprehensible, but to silence his admission that he was wrong is far more reprehensible. I know Jim Bakker’s message hurts the profit of Kenneth Copeland Ministries, which is most probably why it was really pulled.
If you are a fan and supporter of Kenneth Copeland Ministries, you might want to reconsider your stance, re-read the words of Jesus as Jim Bakker suggested, and consider what it is you are supporting. I’ll guarantee you, Jesus would not approve of this move by Kenneth Copeland Ministries. May these “ministries” which are in things solely for profit and power be burned in hell.
Cal
We are no fans of Kenneth Copeland and actively speak out against his ministry along with man other of the prosperity Gospel. It never ceases to amaze me that these minstries pull damning videos. It shows they know the Gospel that they preach is false.
I did not watch the video, however, I see nothing wrong with Jim Baaker admitting that he was wrong for what he did at PTL. If this was the content of his message, then Kenneth Copeland had no right pull this video. If Jim Baaker was bashing Kenneth Copeland publically, for any reason, then Copeland had the right to pull it. I defend Jim Baaker because I like what he is doing with his ministry today, but what I strongly disagree with this bashing of the prosperity Gospel by Jim Bakker or anyone else. You cannot deny that God said for us to prove Him by our giving and see if He would not pour out a blessing we could not contain. I can quote you a half dozen similar scriptures like this, and the prosperity message is taught throughout the Bible. It is the love of money, not money that is evil in God’s sight. Surely you are not dumb enough to think that there will not be mansions, riches and streets of gold awaiting us in Heaven, or do you want to settle for a “little cabin in the corner of Gloryland” as the song goes. God says we are cursed with a curse if we do not give to Him, and that we rob Him when we do not give, so do not criticize those people who give to God through these ministries, and everyone of us has the right to expect God’s blessing when we give. It is up to each and every one of us to individually discern those ministries who are using the Bible’s prosperity message for selfish gain and not support them, however, it is very wrong for Jim Baaker or any of us to trash the entire prosperity message of the Bible and anyone who teaches it. Both Jim Baaker and Kenneth Copeland have multi million dollar ministries that are supported by those of us who give to them them, so in reality Jim Baaker is living the prosperity Gospel that he preaches so adamantly against. The only reason we support Baaker, Copeland, TBN or any other ministry should be because they are spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ and nothing else. Any ministry that is bringing people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ deserves to be on television. It is up to God to judge them for anything they do wrong, not us.
Thank you for commenting on our blog. But I have to disagree with you.
Could you please tell me how the prosperity gospel is NOT showing the “love” of money? How come God has not wiped out poverty on the planet? Do you actually think your reward in heaven is going be a fancy house and a rolls royce? Do you think you are selling eternity a bit short? Do you actually think that Baker, et al are spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ or are they spreading a false gospel?
Dee, I can tell you are a child of God and may God bless you abundantly because you honor Him. I fail to understand what you or anyone in this blog has against God’s people being prosperous. God is a God of abundance. God’s creation in Heaven and earth is more abundant and far greater than the brightest human mind can even comprehend, and that includes the mansions in Heaven. If we needed a Rolls Royce to get around in Heaven, I’m sure God would have no problem furnishing that. I do not consider living in mansions and walking on streets of pure gold living in poverty up there, and that is what my Bible says we have to look forward to.
No where do we ever read in the Bible where God or any of God’s people ever had insufficiency, poverty, lack or limit. The Devil did not give us the ability to create wealth. It comes from God because God owns all the gold and silver. How do you think God’s message of salvation is now able to reach the far corners of the earth? It is through the millions upon millions of dollars that are given to your so called “prosperity Gospels” by God’s people such as TBN and Daystar who are giving away satellite dishes by the thousands to the poorest of the poor in the jungles of Asia and Africa so they can hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached in their own language from broadcasting studios here in America.
It takes millions of dollars just to produce an hour of Christian programming on television today, and they must depend upon God’s people giving enough money to support it. How are God’s people going to give anything if they are poor as you are advocating? God knows the poor cannot support anything, so he prospers his people so in turn they can prosper His Gospel. By the way, TBN is totally debt free. I am not saying that the “prosperity Gospel” is not abused, but it is up to each of us to discern those who are abusing it and stop supporting them, however, it is foolish for us to trash the entire prosperity message and indicate it is a false Gospel because the Bible is filled with the prosperity message.
Contrary to widespread belief, great people in the Bible enjoyed great wealth. Abram was ‘extremely rich’ (Genesis 13:2), Jacob became “very wealthy” (Genesis 30:43) and Isaac “became a very rich man and his wealth continued to grow” (Genesis 26:13). King David was ‘a man after God’s own heart’ (1 Samuel 13:14) – but he was also incredibly rich. The Bible tells us in 1 Chronicles 29:3 that David gave all the gold and silver from his personal stock towards the building of the Temple which would be hundreds of millions of dollars by today’s standards. We all marvel in awe of the timeless truths and incredible wisdom found in the book of Proverbs. Do you know who wrote most of it? The wealthiest king to have ever lived, King Solomon. When the Queen of Sheba visited him she was left breathless when she saw the degree of his wealth. The scriptures tell us that not only did Paul know what it meant to live in need, but he also “knew what it was like to have plenty” (Philippians 4:12).
Here are just a few scriptures:
Malachi 3:10 “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”
II Corinthians 9:6-8 “But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:”
Philippians 4:19 “But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.”
3 John 1:2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.”
AI
What a terrible burden you place on the poor! What happens when the poor pray, believing that they will prosper financially and they don’t? Why are there more poor in the world than rich? Are they all unfaithful?
In 3 John it talks about prosper and be in health-How unfaithful of Paul-he was dogged with his thorn in his flesh, he was put in manacles and held in prisons, he was whipped and beaten and eventually martyred-Guess he didn’t pray right. All of the disciples , except John dies martyrs deaths. John was held in prison on Patmos.
The Son of Man was born in a borrowed stable and was raised by a carpenter. He was not born in a palace even though He owns everything. The Bible states that He had no place to lay His precious head.Well, why not? he could have produced a comfy bed and travelled to Jerusalem on a fancy litter. He hoofed it.
Your Phillippians verse talks about our “needs” not our “wants.” I need forgiveness and grace. I need His peace that passes all understanding. I need the strength of his Holy Spirit. I do not “need” a Rolls.How sick it is to compare the glorious riches of our inheritance in the Lord to some fancy house and car. It sounds like you are marketing Amway not the Lord of the universe.
The Corinthians verse speaks of giving cheerfully from the heart. Jesus commended the widow who gave all she had. She didn’t keep anything back to buy herself a Sea of Galilee First Class Cruise while wearing a designer toga.
His promises are for the riches of the spirit which is found in a deep and abiding relationship with our Savior. It cheapens the Gospel to think this is referring to giving to get me something.
You misuse the Malachi verse. This was part of the old covenant when God was in an If…then relationship with His people. If you do as I say then I will send the rains to grow your crops and supply your needs.He did not say that He would build their mansions nor did He ever have them live in the lap of luxury. You cannot compare the lifestyle of David to God’s promises for all of His people. God gave the people a king a their request. he told them that they would not like having a king because the king would tax them unfairly and take their first fruits. The vast majority of the people lived simple lives and were tended to by thousands of servants.
Sir, I contend you place burdens on the people with your belief that if they pray hard enough and believe hard enough they will become rich and healthy. I know people who believe as you do and they despair in their faith when God does not respond in the way you suggest. They then believe that they don’t pray correctly or that God does not love them. Pain and suffering are part of this fallen world and one day we will share the riches of heaven. But those riches are not superficial-those riches involve being finally freed from this world of pain and sorrow and living in perfect relationship with the One who has loved us from before time.
Dee,
In your opening statement regarding the poor, why don’t you ask God this question instead of me? Why do we have all the poor, and when they pray for money to pay their bills, why does God not give it to them?
Deuteronomy 15:11 “For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.”
Psalm 37:25 “I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.”
First of all poverty is not from God and He had nothing to do with making anyone poor. The Devil is the author or poverty and sickness, not God. Also, God never responds to any need. God will only respond to faith. If God responded to need there would be no poverty, no sickness, no pain, but when Adam sinned, he changed all that. God does and God will answer the prayers of the poor when they pray with a clean heart believing, because without faith, we cannot please God. Matthew 21:22 says “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” This is a promise from Jesus and He does not lie. If the poor do not have their prayers answered, it is for the same reason we do not have our prayers answered, so we need to find out why God is not answering our prayers. There could be many reasons. If we regard iniquity in our hearts, God cannot hear our prayers.
The verse above says the only the righteous will never have to beg, not the unrighteous. God works through us and this is why the scripture above in Deuteronomy tells us to open our hands to the needy. We are the ones that should help the poor and needy. There are many millions of people and hungry children that are being fed every day around the world by TBN, Daystar, The 700 Club, and some of the very prosperity Gospels that you are bashing. The poor will never be able to help the poor and that is what you are advocating, so we need to give to those ministries who are able to feed the hungry.
The scripture in 3 John has nothing to do with Paul or any of the Disciples. I guess you do not believe what the scripture says because of what happened to the Disciples? I do not understand your analogy here at all.
Jesus was not born poor. I don’t know where you get that. The reason he was born in a stable is because there was no room in the inn and they had no choice where they could stay. Jesus came to this earth as a man, not God and He hung on the Cross not because he wanted to, but because it was the only way God could save mankind. Jesus walked in his ministry because he wanted to and that was how most people got around in those days. I do not think he walked in order to prove anything to anyone.
If the scripture in Philippians only referred to needs, then why did God add according to his riches in glory by Jesus Christ? “All your needs” means all your needs, and is not limited to just strength, grace, peace and salvation. I do not understand your comment about a fancy house and car. I Corinthians 2:9 says “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” Why do you want to doubt this and say there are no treasures in Heaven?
The Corinthians scripture has nothing to do with the widow and the mite that she gave. Jesus said she gave more than anyone because she gave all she had and made a very good point. I do not understand your comment about a cruise and designer toga? The scripture means what it says. It is talking about giving here and not a relationship with Christ. God loves a cheerful giver and all sufficiency in all things means exactly what it says, “all things”.
Whether the verse in Malachi has to do with rains for their crops or meat on their tables as it says, it still promises prosperity if we tithe and bring our offerings unto God. I said nothing about this verse referring to mansions or living in the lap of luxury. I do not know where you got that. This is God’s promise and the New Testament did not do away with this promise from God. Back up a couple of verses and you will see that God uses a little stronger language to those who refuse to tithe. You want to throw this verse out and say that it no longer has any significance?
Regarding your last paragraph, yes I most definitely do believe that if we pray hard enough and long enough that God will answer our prayer. I am living proof of that. I Thessalonians 5 tells us to pray without ceasing. If some of your friends despair in their faith or believe that God does not love them because He does not answer their prayers the way they want, then they need to rethink what they are asking God for. Maybe it is something foolish or selfish, and God will never answer these kind of prayers, but I know for a fact that God will answer our prayers when we have faith and believe. I could not agree more with you about pain and suffering being a part of this fallen world and as I mentioned earlier, the author of all pain, suffering and poverty on this earth today is Satan, not God.
Al
I thank you for persevering but I will be honest with you. That is what you would want, right?
You say the following “First of all poverty is not from God and He had nothing to do with making anyone poor. The Devil is the author or poverty and sickness, not God. Also, God never responds to any need. God will only respond to faith. If God responded to need there would be no poverty, no sickness, no pain, but when Adam sinned, he changed all that. God does and God will answer the prayers of the poor when they pray with a clean heart believing, because without faith, we cannot please God”
So, if a person prays with faith he will not be poor huh? What a burden you place on those believers who pray with faith and do not receive material wealth. It’s their fault and you know it. You are either naive or deliberately ignoring the truth. You have passed judgement on all the poor. None of them are as faithful as you. May God have mercy on you.
I know many people who are poor, who prayed believing and are still amongst the poor. But they are rich in spirit, knowing the magnificent gift of relationship with the Father. They have found the Pearl of Great Price. You are stuck looking for pearls. Let me share with you a true story of a family friend. Their daughter contracted leukemia, a very bad case. They believed with their whole heart and soul that God was going to heal her. They prayed believing. They believed so much that the hospital doctors became concerned that the daughter was becoming sicker and they refused to believe that anything would happen to her. The family would not let any of us talk of “discouraging things.” We needed to claim her healing. This sweet girl did the same. But, she died. The family is now depressed because they are left with the fear that they didn’t have enough faith and her death was their fault. Your gospel left them in despair.
Now, to my story. My daughter was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor at the age of three. She was given a less than 10% prognosis. I wanted her to be healed but I believed that she would die. I believed this for many years. She didn’t. God healed her in spite of my supposed “lack of faith.”However, it wasn’t a lack of faith. I believe that God can do anything. But sometimes He chooses to take His children Home. Eventually, we all die and no amount of praying will stop that.
Poverty, like sickness, is the problem with living in a fallen world. Until Jesus comes again, we will see sickness and death, poverty and pain. No amount of name it and claim it will make a difference. Once again I believe that you are like the Pharisees who Jesus condemned. He told a blind man that he was bling through NO Fault of His Own. Yet you place fault squarely on the poor. Surely you see the pain this causes. Or maybe you can’t.
And Jesus was not poor? He was just the “victim of circumstance?” The God of the Universe is not a victim of circumstance. He could have chosen to have been born in Herod’s palace in the lap of luxury. He could have had the penthouse suite in the “inn.” He sovereignly deigned to be born in the stable.He was making a statement. His kingdom is not of this world. His disciples lived a life of poverty and pain. His followers were thrown into prisons and mauled by lions. They were used as torches for Nero’s garden parties.
You are not well off due to your superior faith. You have been given a gift that is undeserved and you should thank God that He allowed you to have enough bread on your table. Instead, deep down inside, you congratulate yourself for doing it right. Here is a link to a short video by John Piper. You need to hear these words.It will take two minutes of your time. I pray you will hear his message.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s
I do not believe that the prosperity Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a false gospel that entraps people into thinking that if they can muster up enough faith, they can have it all.There are many non-Christian enterprises that feed the poor.The fact that a few health and wealth corporations throw a few bucks at the poor does not prove their Christian faith to me. May you see the deep and abiding Gospel-a suffering Christ, who came to die and give us the peace that passes all understanding and that has NOTHING to do with a BMW.
Dee,
All I hear is hatred not only in your words but in the words of your video. “Hatred” and “crap” does not come from God. It comes from vindictive people who are naive enough in their own minds to think that a prosperous Christian cannot possibly love God and know pain and suffering, who thinks they do not have the ability to say that “God is enough” for them also, or is your God “enough” only for the poor? My God is enough for everyone.
You talk about me putting burdens on the poor, while you and your video limit God’s blessings only to the poor, and you are very very wrong. God is no respector of people and His mercy and grace falls on everyone both rich and poor. Prosperous Christians are not all stupid, proud and boastful and drive BMWs as your video pointed out. You know many poor Christians you say who are humble and rich in God’s love. I know many prosperous Christians who are also humble and thankful every day for what God has given to them, and they give much back to God in their tithes and offerings, are also very rich and blessed in God’s love and mercy.
Jesus said in Luke 12:48 “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” This is God’s requirement of prosperous Christians that they give more back to Him and many do. I know poor people who give nothing because they think they cannot afford it and they feel justified by it, so do not tell me all your poor people are righteous because that gospel is also a lie. If any ministry, regardless of who they are, is able to snatch one soul away from Satan and lead them to righteousness through Jesus Christ, then that ministry deserves the right to continue on, regardless of whether we think they are right or not. That one soul that did not burn in Hell was worth it all.
I told you that I agree with you that there were ministries that were out for selfish gain and we should not support those ministries, but not all ministries are out there for selfish gain as you and your video claim. You cannot feed millions of hungry children in Ethopia and Zimbabwe with a “few bucks” as you so arrogantly put it. It takes millions of dollars from millions of people, and I thank God every day for the people that are spending the millions it takes to do it. I thank God for the 747 Jumbo Jet Operation Blessing flying hospital that CBN owns who sponsors the 700 Club that flies all over the world with doctors from America who give freely of their talents and time to operate on and treat the sick and needy children not only in third world countries but in America who cannot afford it. I thank God for James and Betty Robinson ministries that feed thousands of orphan children every day in the remote jungles of the world.
They are able to do it because God’s people support it and make it happen and it happens every single day. Do not tell me that these ministries do not know what pain and suffering is, because there are precious Christian missionaries that are supported by these ministries who live in these jungles and witness first hand the pain and suffering in the faces every single day from these orphans whose parents have died from Aids or else murdered by terrorists.
We need to pray for them and support them instead of criticizing them, and if they are doing something wrong in their ministry to trust God to work it out because that is God’s job, not yours.
You say that all prosperous Christians place burdens on the poor, but yet the ones that are able to help the poor the most are the prosperous Christians, certainly not the poor. Proverbs 28:8 says the wealth of the unrighteous will be transferred to those who will help the poor. “He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.” You cannot teach poor and hungry children that Jesus loves them and cares for them. You must first give them something to eat, then they will listen to you about Jesus. I don’t know where all this “hatred Gospel” that you and your friends are teaching is going to end up, but a God who loves us all and sent His Son to die for all mankind does not condone this kind of behavior, and may He forgive you for it.
Sorry, Al, but the Prosperity Gospel is BANKRUPT.
Al
I am willing to have a dialog with you on this subject. Maybe we both could learn something.
However, here are some things that are frustrating to me.
1. I have provided examples for you from my own life and you have not responded to them.
2. Then I provide a video by John Piper. Piper is no slouch when it comes to theology. If you don’t know of him then you truly are living a purposefully sheltered life. Now, you didn’t like the word “crap” from him. Did you ever stop to pause and wonder why such a respected theologian would be driven to such an extreme? Instead it appears you hide behind a safe wall, content to say…”See, they hate.”
3. By doing this you give yourself an excuse not to listen to the legitimate concerns that are expressed about what we perceive to be an unbiblical movement that stresses a faith that is nowhere evident in Scripture. You congratulate yourself for your faith and subsequent “wealth.” You them look down your nose to those the Lord has sovereignly allowed to be poor or sick.
4. God does condone this behavior when it is done to accuse those who preach a false gospel and prey on the poor. The Bible states in the last days there will be many who pervert the Gospel. Some of us believe that the prosperity gospel does this. Jesus used this supposed “hatred.” He called the Pharisees “snakes” and condemned them for laying burdens on the poor.
I commend you for your tenacity. At least you have not cut and run.
I leave you with an example that I hope you will respond to. Benny HInn has been asked for years to provided proof, once and for all, of one of his supposed healings. When he finally condescended to do so (remember Jesus sent the lepers to the priests for verification of their healing-Jesus wasn’t afraid, He knew He had healed the lepers). So Hinn brought an Xray with a bowel tumor. He then said he prayed for healing. He produced a second Xray which showed no tumor.
However, Hank Hannegraff decided to call this person’s doctor. Guess what? Said person had had surgery to remove the tumor.
Look at HInn’s crusades. His handlers will not let anyone on the stage who is obviously deathly sick, on respirators, etc. These people come to him s their last hope and he rejects them because he is a fraud.
So here is a challenge. Give me proof for one real healing by Hinn. One limb that has grown back.
And ,if you so desire, I will provide more info about these “wonderful” people that are deceiving the public. May God forgive them and may He open your eyes.
Dee,
You mentioned your daughter being healed of a brain tumor. Obviously you believe in Devine healing because it happened to you and I rejoice with you because you said God showed you something you did not think would happen. You indicated it was not a lack of your faith because God can do anything, and sometimes God chooses to take people home. You are right and I could not agree with you more. Then you turn right around and tell me about a family you knew who lost her daughter and now they are devastated because they were believing for her healing, and you have the nerve to say it was my gospel that left them in despair? How two faced can you be Dee? Why did you not tell them what you told me, that sometimes God just chooses to take men, women, and children home and we must accept that, and it is not for us to try and debate God’s judgment why some die and some don’t. Everyone who prays for healing does not always get it because God chooses to take them home instead. You do not know why He does this, I do not know why He does it, and neither does any human being on the face of the earth know why He does it, so we must accept that a loving God knows what is best for us. If this family is having a problem accepting that fact and if you are truly a friend, then you need to be praying with them until they do accept and understand it. We cannot shake our fist at God because our children die and others don’t.
Obviously John Piper and Hank Hanagraaff make a good living bashing other ministries, especially those who have made human mistakes in their lives. I guess Piper and Hanagraaff never had any personal problems, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us haven’t. We all have to face the Devil head on every day, and those of us who are weak in certain areas of their lives are going to lose a battle now and then. If we happen to be in the public eye, then here come the vultures like Piper and Hanagraaff ready to cut them to shreads and discount every good thing that they ever accomplished in their lives. I’m sorry, but I do not suscribe to this way of living, and the Jesus Christ that I know and serve does not suscribe to it either. He told the people for those without sin in their own lives to cast the first stone, and they all turned and walked away ashamed. “Neither do I condemn you” were His words to the woman.
Obviously your fellow “basher preachers” are not having too much of an effect in driving these ministries out of business because every one of them are still alive and well today, telling people that the same Jesus that you, Piper and Hannagraaff serves is the same Jesus that is still saving souls from Hell every day. This is the only thing that counts and even matters. AA Allen was an old time Pentecostal preacher who preached tent revivals back in the 50s and 60s for more than 20 years, and hundreds of thousands were saved under his ministry, yet he died at the age of 59 from acute alcoholism. I guess according to you, Piper and Hannagraaff, that all these hundreds of thousands that he led to Jesus are now all going to Hell because what he did. God ended his ministry in his own timing, just as He will do anyone that He is not pleased with. As I told you before, this is God’s job, not yours, and not Piper’s, and not Hannegraaff’s.
I did not listen to the conversation that Hannegraaff had with the doctor of the man who claimed that God healed him at a Benny Hinn crusade, did you? If not, then how do know its true? Why do you fault Benny Hinn? Obviously the man gave Hinn the x-ray, so how do we know the man himself was not lying? This is why I do get that personally involved in whether or not what people say really happened. I know that God does heal every single day and that is good enough for me. It would be very stupid of me to doubt that out of all the hundreds of thousands that ever claimed God’s healing at a Benny Hinn crusade or a Richard Roberts crusade were all lying, but that is exactly what you are doing, yet you claim the same God healed your own daughter. I do not need to receive any more of your so-called info with your accusations, finger pointing, and dragging down ministries that people are being led to Christ under. Are Piper and Hannegraff conducting altar calls and telling about all the vast number of people that are coming to Christ and being saved under their ministries? If they are not, why? If they are, then why are they bashing others who are doing the same thing?
I do not know what that rediculous statement you made about the prosperity Gospel being bankrupt is about? Do you? I do not see Pat Robertson, John Haggee, Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Richard Roberts filing for bankruptcy, nor have I heard any rumors about it. If you have such information, I would like to read about it. This week Richard Roberts sent 300,000 packaged meals to South Africa to feed those that are starving to death. I watched as they loaded them on a charted jet paid for by the ministry, but I guess that only cost them a “few bucks” according to your calculations and analogy. Yea, you are right. God is opening my eyes alright,to all the vultures that are out there getting rich off trashing and dragging down other ministries.
Al
What my counterpart, Deb, was saying is that the prosperity Gospel is Scripturally bankrupt.
If you believe that God doesn’t always heal in response to faith, do you not also have to admit that God does not always provide wealth for those in poverty.
Jesus demanded that the lepers get the priests to agree that the lepers were healed. Do you not demand to have one proof of a healing, complete with X-rays and blood work? You should. As Scripture says “Always be ready to give a reason for the hope that you have.” Surely with ALL of those claims of healing, you could have proof for one? Just one- a real one-not God healing someone’s bad back. Once again, if HInn is a healer, why does he have his boys weed out the really sick people. So many have been turned away. They came to him for their last hope. And he is the gall to turn away the really sick because he is a FRAUD!!!! He is a false prophet. How do I know? A prophet only tells the truth, accurately. I wrote a 15 page paper on the lies HInn has told about his life. Would you like me to spell them out? Bet not.
I can well assure you that Piper and Hanegraaff have helped people to find the Lord. I did not walk the aisle when I become a Christian. However, never forget it is God who does the work to effect the conversion.
However, I do give you props for sticking with the conversation. May God bless you.
Dee,
Thanks for explaining my comment to Al. I thought he would realize that I was speaking of spiritual, not monetary, matters.
Yes, the Prosperity (aka Health and Wealth) Gospel is SPIRITUALLY BANKRUPT. Sadly, those who follow this false gospel will one day realize that…
First of all Hinn is no healer and neither is anyone else. It is God that heals and He does not need Benny Hinn, Richard Roberts or anyone else. They are only the messengers. I stick with what I said previously. I do not believe it and you do not believe either that out of all the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands that have claimed God’s healing through the ministries of Benny Hinn, Richard Roberts, Pat Robertson, and many others that they are all lying and no such healing ever took place. That is exactly what you are saying when you demand proof, and you are doubting God that he ever healed anyone. Who do you think you are that God owes proof to you or any of your ministry bashing buddies that He actually healed someone. This is bordering on stupidity, and I will have no part of it. It is not up to you, your counter parts, or any of your preacher bashing heroes to cast judgment on any ministry where people are still coming to know the saving grace of Jesus Christ. You would obviously rather see them burn in Hell, than to accept Jesus through Benny Hinn’s ministry or anyone like him. Maybe at the Judgment you will be able to explain it to God to where he will understand it, but you have failed miserably trying to explain all this hatred and “crap” as your hero Piper put it to me.
One thing that I am doing right now and it is the same thing that Jesus did in Matthew 10:14 “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.” That is exactly what I am doing. I regret the day I ever visited this vindictive, ministry bashing, finger pointing website, and from this day forward I will never have any part of any such stupid foolishness again. I am not going to stand by and let you try and drag me down to the slime pit that you all are wallowing in. There are too many lost and unsaved people out there that still need to hear the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ, and if I am able to prevent one soul from going to Hell or feed one starving baby in Ethopia, my life on earth will have been well spent. This is the real Jesus Christ I know and serve. I am sorry that you have never met Him.
Al,
Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord, and He continually intervenes in my life. We obviously will never see eye to eye on the prosperity gospel, but thanks for stopping by.
Al
You did not answer my question. If Jesus sent the lepers to the priest for verification, then why can’t you have absolute proof of one miracle?
You best be careful about judging the salvation of others. I stated that Hinn was a false prophet but I never said that he was not a Christian. I never judged your salvation and I respect you enough to believe you know that such a response is inappropriate.
Finally, I am not sure that Hinn and others (note:I said not sure) that they are preaching the pure Gospel. I often don’t recognize the Gospel they preach. They may be presenting a God that is not the God of the Scriptures.
I implore you to research the claims of Hinn, Roberts and others. There is much to be leery of.
Let me point out a problem with Robertson. Do you remember when the hurricane was coming up the east coast and Robertson prayed it would not hit where he lived. It didn’t and he pointed that out. Here is a question. Did you know that there were those that prayed it would not hit them? Dod you know that they prayed this in all sincerity? Do you understand how this might look?
Robertson prayed it wouldn’t hit him but did he pray t wouldn’t hit those up the coast as well? If not, was he content to take care of himself and not others in this country? Is he claiming that his prayers are more effective than others? Is our prayer life a series of taking care of mine and not caring for others? There are a number of people who are considering the faith who have written about this.
Once again, I appreciate that you continue to stick it out. But I ask you to watch stating that we are hateful. A simple disapproval along with reasons is not based in hate but in doing what we are called to do and that is to protect one another from potential harm. And I think that these preachers have much to be questioned about.
Remember, prove one, just one miracle of HInns out of the thousands. X-rays, blood work, etc. I challenge you to do what Jesus sent the lepers to do.I think you may be afraid of what you will find.