The Church Reform Initiative: Faith Baptist Church, Knightdale, NC, Faced Off Against JD Greear and the Summit Church Juggernaut and Won!

Posted on by June 18, 2025avatar

“Throughout history, more has been lost to over-eager zealots than to mediocre slackers. A slacker leaves well enough alone. A zealot, a true patriot or company man, will keep pushing and pushing and pushing until the situation is screwed up beyond all recognition. If not properly motivated and constrained, a zealot is the most destructive force of all.” ― Patrick E. McLean, Hostile Takeover.

I have several stories that I need to share, so the next couple of weeks will be busy. The Eastminster Church situation is escalating, and I will report on it as soon as possible. I may have to report on Sunday. I am impressed when victims rise and express their concerns. I also plan to report on the Burk Parsons situation. He is not related to me as far as I know, and is part of the Calvinista collective.

I was thinking about this post when I received an email from a reader in North Carolina, suggesting that I write about it. That is a divine appointment, and here it is! My floors are being stained at the moment, and the house smells, and it is too hot to open the windows. I hope I am thinking and writing straight.

I often tell those who have experienced abuse (sexual, physical, spiritual, etc) at the hands of a church and have chosen to talk about it, that their lives will probably change. That is now the case for the victims of David Platt and his ham-handed and thoroughly un-Christian takeover of McLean Bible Church (MBC). These SBC Calvinistas are a growing problem. I’m going to sum their strategy up. Instead of starting a church from scratch, they target churches with great (paid-for) infrastructure and a healthy financial position. Like the Ferengi, they know it’s all about acquisitions.

I am now reading the 9Marx material on how to build a healthy church. They are also involved in acquisitions and are Calvinistas.  I will write about this once I have cleared the backlog of stories that need to be told.

The Church Reform Initiative

Back to MBC. Here is a list of the stories I wrote. A group of highly trained and talented people convinced me of their case when they produced two fine documentaries on the MBC takeover. They leveraged that talent, combined with their faith, and founded the Church Reform Initiative. I bet some people in the church acquisitions business are trembling just a little bit. Here is a snippet from their homepage.

THE PROBLEM

There is a dire need for the church to confront and address the presence of sin within its own walls, rather than turning a blind eye or sweeping it under the rug. Instead of being a “light on the hill,” the church is often consumed by corruption, scandals, and controversies, dimming its influence and credibility in the eyes of the public.

WHAT WE DO

Church Reform Initiative exists to assist and support organizations and individuals in identifying and addressing corruption within the Christian church and Christian parachurch organizations through awareness, education, and the legal process.

Here is the part that got me excited, given that I often deal with folks in need of help.

CHURCH MEMBER SUPPORT

We seek to work with individuals who desire to pursue truth, transparency, and accountability in the leadership of various Christian organizations including, but not limited to, churches, parachurch organizations, integrated auxiliaries, and other affiliated organizations. We provide resources and other types of support for those individuals who desire to uncover and expose corruption, fraud, abuse, and other criminal and unethical behaviors within various Christian organizations, including financial support for litigation, education, and exposure.

They even claim to support groups and individuals who expose corruption and illegal activities within the church.

ORGANIZATIONAL SUPPORT

We look to work with and support other organizations who desire to uncover and expose corruption and other illegal and/or unethical behaviors within the leadership of various Christian organizations. We may provide financial grants and other support to these organizations in their pursuit of truth, transparency, and accountability in Christian organizations.

They stress their faith on their about page, where you can view the background of the folks who want to help others.

WHY IS THIS INITIATIVE IMPORTANT?

The biblical standard for the church is clear, it is the “household of God… a pillar and buttress of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15, ESV), as such, it must be the aim for the Body of Christ. The more the church steers away from this standard, the more destructive it becomes. At ChurchRI, it is our call to action.

Faith Baptist Church, Knightdale, North Carolina, versus JD Greear and the Summit Church juggernaut

They have demonstrated what they can do here in North Carolina as a church that caught JD Greear’s attention, faced an unimaginable trial. CRI has produced two of the three planned films regarding the little church that roared with the help of CRI. Here is the background.

Episode 1 In a small North Carolina town, faithful members of Faith Baptist Church found themselves in the crosshairs of a powerful agenda. What was presented as a “merger” with Summit Church—led by SBC figurehead J.D. Greear—quickly unraveled into a battle for survival. Locked out of their building, threatened with arrest, and watching their church pushed into bankruptcy, these believers stood firm. This documentary uncovers the behind-the-scenes text messages, financial maneuvers, and spiritual warfare at the heart of a devastating takeover attempt—and the faithful resistance that followed.

…In Episode 2 of the Defending Faith Baptist documentary, church members in Knightdale, NC expose a calculated effort to dissolve their congregation and transfer its assets to Summit Church under JD Greear’s leadership. From backroom deals to bylaw violations, firsthand accounts and courtroom evidence reveal how the voices of lifelong members were ignored—and how a faithful few rose to fight back.

This fight was well-documented in the local news, and a particular pastor and church have come off looking ruthless, mean, and greedy.

The trailer is a quick overview.

These videos made me cry for the faithful people whom Greear misled.

The little church that roared.

I will post Episode 3 as soon as it becomes available.

My thanks go out to CRI for the incredible and unexpected support for the good folks at Faith Baptist. Well done.

Comments

The Church Reform Initiative: Faith Baptist Church, Knightdale, NC, Faced Off Against JD Greear and the Summit Church Juggernaut and Won! — 176 Comments

  1. I’m convinced that these New Calvinist rogue pastors will do anything it takes to “steal” churches for the glory of their movement! They truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel to the church (Calvinism = gospel to them). Thus, they justify stealth and deception to accomplish that objective, since they alone hold truth. It’s more than just taking buildings and property away from those who worked hard and long to pay for it … they have a passion to build the kingdom (even though, it is not ‘the’ Kingdom). There are many Faith Baptist Church examples throughout America, where the dudebros have wreaked havoc in the Body of Christ.

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  2. Max:
    I’m convinced that these New Calvinist rogue pastors will do anything it takes to “steal” churches for the glory of their movement!They truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel to the church (Calvinism = gospel to them).Thus, they justify stealth and deception to accomplish that objective, since they alone hold truth.It’s more than just taking buildings and property away from those who worked hard and long to pay for it … they have a passion to build the kingdom (even though, it is not ‘the’ Kingdom).There are many Faith Baptist Church examples throughout America, where the dudebros have wreaked havoc in the Body of Christ.

    I noticed that the Calvinist leadership is convinced the ends justify the means. They actually don’t consider it “deception” because the other denominations, in their eyes, are in grave error. However, they fundamentally have no idea how to be “Christlike”–at best, they think it’s obedience and completing checklists. I have read countless pages of Calvinistic theology and listened to dozens of sermons to conclude that they can’t give anyone a clear answer what “Christlike” and “holy” behavior entails. They simply don’t know, and worse, they don’t see the infinite number of startling contradictions in their own doctrine. A very dangerous combination, indeed.

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  3. I wonder if Park Street Church in Boston has been victimized by this same stealth takeover. While not a merger per se with another church, Park Street called a pastor who was outside their Congregational tradition who then proceeded to remake almost everything in the parish, including firing most of the staff. Over half of the church walked out. The lesson is one can experience an internal “takeover” if the wrong people in leadership hire the wrong pastors.

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  4. Valerie Stewart: I noticed that the Calvinist leadership is convinced the ends justify the means. They actually don’t consider it “deception” because the other denominations, in their eyes, are in grave error.

    IMO, the New Calvinist rebellion within SBC was launched by Al Mohler in 2010 when he essentially gave a charge to an army of young, restless and reformed. He essentially declared that all expressions of Christian faith, but Calvinism, were in error:

    “Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Dr. Albert Mohler, President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 2010)

    In case after case, the new reformers have demonstrated that they are not beyond stealth and deception as their modus operandi to accomplish their mission to “preach and teach truth.”

    Valerie Stewart: they fundamentally have no idea how to be “Christlike”

    Well, no one has accused the New Calvinists of that yet! It’s just not in their toolkit. Arrogance is their primary identifier, not Christlikeness.

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  5. Stavros49: one can experience an internal “takeover” if the wrong people in leadership hire the wrong pastors

    This has been an element of the current wave of church takeovers which has not been thoroughly addressed … that the groundwork is laid within by rogue church leaders months or years in advance of making it happen through the “right” wrong pastor.

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  7. “the little church that roared”

    IMO, we need more “Hell no, not here!” rising up from congregations in SBC churches across America. This attack by the NeoCal army is going largely unchallenged, ground is being surrendered without a volley, good people are losing their churches to theo-tyrants. For God’s sake, in Jesus’ name, “ROAR!!”

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  11. Back in the early and mid 90s in the Four Corners region, I came across an SBC preacher who believed his church should be the only church in the area. Actually, or so I was told, would go to other SBC churches when they had their monthly business meeting to tell them he was God’s man for the hour, God was working at his church, and they needed to disband their church, move en masse to his church, and of course sign over the deed on their property IF it was debt free so his church could sell it and put the proceeds towards their building program.

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  13. For the kingdom???? …… The kingdom of who?.. JD Greer, Mark Dever, David Platt, ….. uhm, John Calvin?

    There are multiple verses in the Bible that warn us of false prophets.
    The watchdogs and shepherds of this church did a wonderful job of guarding their church.

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  14. Rich: Just watched the trailer, and it always surprise me what folks will refer to as “woke”.

    “Woke” is not the problem in SBC … the underlying issue here is New Calvinism. Greear is one of the darlings of the NeoCal movement. Southern Baptists don’t need to confuse “woke” with “theo” takeover. I don’t think the good folks at Faith Baptist understand the core problem with these whippersnapper reformers.

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  17. This fight was well-documented in the local news, and a particular pastor and church have come off looking ruthless, mean, and greedy.

    They ARE ruthless, mean, and greedy. They might preach Bible, but they don’t live it.
    “Do nothing out of selfish ambition I or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves.” – Philippians 2:3

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  18. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “Do nothing out of selfish ambition I or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves.” – Philippians 2:3

    I’m sorry … but humility just doesn’t happen among NeoCal “pastors” … it’s all about them, not about others. I have yet to hear anyone describe a New Calvinist pastor as humble, kind, and loving … it just ain’t who they are folks.

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  21. Those videos were heartbreaking. The face of the sheep being deceived and robbed by those they thought were shepherds. So lying, deceit, greed, and no compassion is a way to get what you want, I mean the way to spread the(ir) gospel? I must be reading a different Bible. 1 Timothy 3:2 “An overseer must be… of good behavior….” (there is a whole list of qualifications).

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  22. Valerie Stewart,

    “I noticed that the Calvinist leadership is convinced the ends justify the means.”
    ++++++++++++

    well, quite honestly, i observe that ‘the ends justify the means’ has become the chief cornerstone, the #1 functional faith tenet, of evangelical christian culture.

    the little people are expendable, collateral damage, & so what.

    purity of ideology is celebrated

    (aka ‘biblical’, and political expediency

    …aka raw power, which has consequences for the dignity in humanity of the least of these. but who cares.)

    i’ll get out of the passive voice now.

    in my observation, much of evangelical leadership is made up of narcissists, ruthless businessmen, or those who emulate a combination of these behaviors

    (either out of admiration or fear of what they’ll lose if they don’t kowtow).

    these copycats as well as a majority of evangelicals are simply passive impotent sea cucumbers who don’t stand up to the purveyors of ‘the end justifies the means’.

    because they’ve been easily led by those who tell them sit’s a sin to ‘judge’, rock the boat and threaten unity.

    they have faith in some kind of happy-go-lucky magic that all things work out for good for those at ground zero where the evangelical party line lands shatteringhard.

    well, what it comes down to is they simply want Godpoints for themselves.

    and for that, i’m done.

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  23. About 6 weeks ago, an acquaintence that knew I once worked as a state denominational executive that assisted churches seeking pastors and staff contacted me. He was on the pastor search team for an small church with mostly older members and wanted my feedback on a “young hotshot preacher that could regrow our church.” He sent me the resume and after doing some web searching, the pastoral candidate received his degree from a Neo-Cal seminary and was on staff at a large church. In discussing this with my friend, he became wary and went back to his committee and they created a series of questions for the pastoral candidate:
    1. Did he provide pastoral care, hospital ministry, and visit shut-ins? Answer – no; that is the job of deacons
    2. What would he want to change about our church? Answer – nothing, until he felt “led by God.”
    3. Had he carefully read and did he have any questions about the church’s constitution and by-laws? Answer – no; these were “man’s documents; not God’s”

    The committee had seven more questions to ask, but they ended the meeting with the former pastoral candidate based on his responses to the first three.

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  25. Luckyforward: The committee had seven more questions to ask, but they ended the meeting with the former pastoral candidate based on his responses to the first three.

    That church was fortunate. There have been many reports of SBC churches where NeoCal candidates lied to pastor church committees about their theological persuasion and ministry objectives. They do this in order to gain control of a pulpit and then subtly and slowly begin to change church belief and practice. A first step toward takeover of a church for the glory of the NeoCal movement is to change church governance from congregational polity to elder-rule (often with the pastor’s dudebros tapped to be elders). Stealth and deception are their modus operandi. It’s happening all over SBC, with NeoCal penetration into other denominations as well including AOG and EFCA.

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  30. There have been many reports of SBC churches where NeoCal candidates lied to pastor church committees about their theological persuasion and ministry objectives.
    Max,

    Unfortunately, it looks we have gotten to the point churches should insist that pastors sign contractual agreements stating that they agree with and will practice the churches’ beliefs and objectives.

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  31. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): it looks we have gotten to the point churches should insist that pastors sign contractual agreements stating that they agree with and will practice the churches’ beliefs and objective

    I’m so old that I remember a time when you could trust a man titled “Pastor” … or at least most of them. At the very least, pastor search committees should have candidates put their hand on the Bible before the interview and declare “I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” This would be particularly important for pastoral candidates who obtained SBC seminary degrees over the last 15 years or so. But, on the other hand, the New Calvinists are behaving like they have no fear of God … this post being a perfect example.

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  32. It’s the hubris of building a kingdom in JD’s image that I can’t get over. The idea that Faith Baptist Church had a calling, a mission and a group of worshipers following God and not man was reprehensible to JD’s henchmen since it wasn’t Summit’s style of “advancing the kingdom”. They lied, created a financial problem, then thought they could swoop in with the solution of a take-over. Such small men. Thanks for highlighting this series, Dee.

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  33. Max: They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people.

    So, in other words, they don’t want to stand by Jesus–they want to stand by other men. They have managed to excise Jesus from Christianity.

    Max: Well, no one has accused the New Calvinists of that yet! It’s just not in their toolkit. Arrogance is their primary identifier, not Christlikeness.

    My Calvinistic ex-pastor, who has a fancy seminary degree, been in the field for 20+ years, and has written several books, also wrote extensively about living a holy life. Throughout his own book, he never once mentioned any of the examples in the Synoptic Gospels, especially the Good Samaritan parable or Jesus sparing the adulterous woman. This absence is par for the course in Calvinistic writings.

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  35. Max: But, on the other hand, the New Calvinists are behaving like they have no fear of God …

    Why should they?
    They are the Predestined Elect, with their Personal Get-Out-of-Hell Free card issued by God before the foundation of the world! Plus they have CALVIN! CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out!

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  42. Max,

    It’s a message that is heralded within a customer & consumer products & services 24/7 culture that also has customer & consumer products & services “temples” – in one form or another – everywhere.
    And at the front door of all of these “temples” its written. ‘You are Entitled’
    The problem is that many Christians aren’t able to see that they have been conditioned to think this let alone endeavour to resist it with the help of Gods grace.
    Hard work if you want to be a serious disciple.

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  46. Valerie Stewart: he never once mentioned any of the examples in the Synoptic Gospels

    The New Calvinists camp out in Paul’s epistles. They darn near worship Paul.
    They seldom preach from the Gospels and the words in red. When I get the opportunity, I tell them: if you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective.

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  48. Max: They talk a lot about “God”, with hardly a mention of Jesus, and nary a word about the Holy Spirit.

    I have noticed this, too. In fact, they talk more about God’s wrath, how all of us are totally depraved, and that we deserve eternal hell than anything else. If they mention Jesus at all, it’s how his atonement was limited. The typical context of the Holy Spirit most often is we need to “stop resisting” Him. There is very little mention over how they experience God.

    Max: Heck, they quote NeoCal icons more than Christ (John Piper, etc.).

    One thing that tipped me off my local church had been infiltrated by Calvinists was the pastors quoting other Calvinists 99.9% of the time—especially without revealing their denomination. With the exception of Martin Luther, they went out of their way to not quote anyone else of a differing viewpoint. This is, unfortunately, the modus operandi of NeoCalvinists.

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  49. Max,

    Oh, yes, they have a love affair with Romans 8. They insist it’s “all there in the Bible” and it’s “Scripturally sound,” but they’ll quickly shame you for having a differing opinion. Personally, the red flags started raising when one pastor was expositing Romans 8:28-30, and I suspected he was taking something out of context, but he made me feel very small for daring to not believe him at face value.

    Max: When I get the opportunity, I tell them: if you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective.

    This is good advice. However, I’ve heard from Calvinist leaders to read John first, as a springboard to Paul’s Epistles. They do like using John 6:39-44 to support “irresistible grace”.

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  51. Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
    Max,

    Makes sense that they hardly mention Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
    If the elect are chosen before the foundations of the world, then what practical purpose did Jesus’ miraculous conception and death on the cross serve, and what use is there for the Holy Spirit?

    You’re dead on. In fact, if the Elect were chosen before time was created, then why does the Holy Spirit need to regenerate people over years or decades? How is Jesus’ sacrifice needed if God already chose the Elect and permanently refused to save the reprobate? If Sola Scriptura were true, then why does the Holy Spirit even need to illuminate Scripture for us?

    I have never received a sufficient answer from any Calvinist.

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  52. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Makes sense that they hardly mention Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

    I am a non-traditional believer in Christ and the Holy Spirit.
    I find the discussion of the Holy Spirit in these comment threads lacking.

    I have asked the question “why” many times here, with a response of either silence or (comically in the case of little children being abused) original sin.
    Yeah right, original sin.

    We talk endlessly here about problems in the Church.

    Jesus promised to send the Spirit.
    Jesus promised to protect innocent children who approach him.
    And yet, it seems that the vast majority of victims pray their hearts out before, during, and after the abuse.
    So do the abusers!
    When help arrives, it is typically secular and long after the event.
    The victims thus often think that God is displeased, or “grieved” or “quenched.”

    How can the Spirit be quenched by a 12 year old child who prays innocently?
    (“Please dear God stop this.”)

    Why?
    I guess I can wait.

    I know this is a hard question.
    But it is a short one, and this moment in history demands it.

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  53. Sandy,

    “How can the Spirit be quenched by a 12 year old child who prays innocently?
    (“Please dear God stop this.”)

    Why?”
    +++++++++++++++

    yes, hard question(s). i agonize over these things, too.

    our reasonable expectations are clearly not met. as a starting point, some honest questions:

    what do you expect the Holy Spirit to do in these circumstances?

    what do you expect our experiences of the HS to be in these circumstances?

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  54. Sandy,

    That is a tricky question that everyone struggles with. I have come to believe that the problem of free will is part of the difficulty. If God had created us to do exactly His will, we would not have had the choice to do otherwise. For us to be free to choose our destiny and life, we must be given the option to do otherwise.
    We choose to love God and follow Him (unless you are a 5-point Calvinist, but that is for another day.)

    This means that all people have the choice, and I don’t need to belabor the pain and suffering that have occurred due to people’s bad decisions. I often wonder where the Holy Spirit was when abuse happened in the church, in which people purport to have the Holy Spirit. Even then, free choice invades. How many times have I done or said something that I know I shouldn’t do, but I do it anyway?

    I do know this. Anyone who harms a child should worry about facing the Father. Jesus warned us of the consequences of abusing a child. Perhpas, the holy Spirit is not longer or never was part of the abuser. Well, this could go on and on— just some thoughts.

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  55. Sandy: How can the Spirit be quenched by a 12 year old child who prays innocently?

    He can’t and isn’t. Since they place blame on the child to ineffectively divert any of it from themselves, why would we take their word on that as authority?

    Sandy: I have asked the question “why” many times here, with a response of either silence or (comically in the case of little children being abused) original sin.

    Because it’s normal for children to look up to adults their parents seem to trust, any sort of openness to so called “original sin” in the child is NOT a factor.

    Feel free to ask me any questions about my earlier comments on this matter. Since the word is not the thing and the superapostles are vocabulary thieves, anything I mean by straight meanings bears no resemblance to what they want to falsely imply or state.

    The actual Scriptures don’t contain the phrases “original sin” nor “total depravity”. Paul wrote in shorthand and when he was in person, he would have explained the key to what would be in his writings.

    St Paul’s way or arguing for illustration was not dogmatic about his examples. In the example of Christ and the husband he would have meant it the opposite way round all along.

    Reformed society in the days of Edwards and Finney was a very flat pyramid. But even in “olden days” I suppose it would have been obviously wrong (to some) to blame a molested child.

    Because they are so comfortable from their absolutist determinism they don’t respect contingency in your life or mine.

    They were told they don’t have meaningful personalities so they take it out on those they see a chance to pick on.

    I’ve been held back for over two thirds of a century (with cold sweats at night) by the stranglehold of superapostles but because I was always semi-detached from my colorful portfolio of movements / fellowships I wasn’t seen as “material” – my friend’s friend was though. Meantime countless secular authorities have been patronised gormlessly – why politics get worse.

    Valerie Stewart: all of us are totally depraved

    Since dual Holy Spirit action (inbreathed and infilled) since Ascension, I’m not. Half a Holy Spirit means they have no Jesus, no salvation, and no providential mutual service, and not real Scripture meanings, and they’re not keen we should, either.

    BTW God’s PRIOR answer to the so called “total depravity” (which aren’t normal usages) was His prevenient grace before we started.

    In my young day in all denominations, assurance and particular redemption were explained properly (outside the superficial Stott tendency). The takeover is far advanced in England too.

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  59. Sandy: Jesus promised to send the Spirit.
    Jesus promised to protect innocent children who approach him.
    And yet, it seems that the vast majority of victims pray their hearts out before, during, and after the abuse.
    So do the abusers!
    When help arrives, it is typically secular and long after the event.
    The victims thus often think that God is displeased, or “grieved” or “quenched.”

    Why, it’s almost as if God Does Not Exist…

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  61. dee: where the Holy Spirit was

    Hermann Cohen, an honest philosopher, drawing on commentators, pointed out that the Holy Spirit will be seen in individual human beings.

    The very Scriptures already told the church authorities not to lord it or strongarm. The only “ordinance” Jesus gave about eucharists was to honour Holy Spirit in those smaller than themselves.

    As church authorities are raising the subject of not grieving Holy Spirit that is a very grave insult and blasphemy against Him and against all of us smaller than themselves. As they are unbelievers this is what Jesus is asking when He asks, shall He find faith on earth? He especially means, in elements of that type.

    Valerie Stewart,

    But read the other Gospels as well AND James AND every place throughout the Old Testament where it says “collect plenty extra for him who has none”, tells them not to steal from orphans and widows. That’s rather a lot of Scriptures.

    Bonus Friday quiz:

    Hands up everyone who thinks Proverbs ch 21 vv 10-31 means wives?

    Hands up everyone who thinks Proverbs ch 21 vv 10-31 means women clergy with the parishioners (the full adoptees) as full partners and a lot of good sense about not suppressing spiritual gifts in it?

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  62. Valerie Stewart: One thing that tipped me off my local church had been infiltrated by Calvinists was the pastors quoting other Calvinists 99.9% of the time

    Without the Holy Spirit to talk to them, they rely on Piper et al. They don’t really have sermons of their own, they “borrow” messages from each other. If Piper (some call him the “Father of New Calvinism”) says something, it ‘must’ be truth!

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  63. Valerie Stewart: They insist it’s “all there in the Bible” and it’s “Scripturally sound,” but they’ll quickly shame you for having a differing opinion.

    They torture selected passages of Scripture until it says what they want it to. New Calvinism wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for mistruth and untruth twisted from sacred text to fit their theological grid.

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  64. Valerie Stewart: I have never received a sufficient answer from any Calvinist.

    But, boy, do they love to debate! New Calvinists have been schooled with ‘gotcha’ answers from twisted Scripture; they are so proud of themselves when they can back you into a corner. They can be mean-spirited in their defense of their theology. It’s really a sad thing to behold for they are “always learning (from Piper et al.) but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth” (2 Timothy 3:7).

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  66. Sandy: I have asked the question “why” many times here, with a response of either silence or (comically in the case of little children being abused) original sin.
    Yeah right, original sin.

    One of the most ghastly answers I’ve ever heard, is so that ‘god’ (small ‘g’ intentional) can ‘glorify’ himself.

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  69. Either they didn’t have the Holy Spirit to begin with or they suppress/ignore His direction (Ephesians 4:30) but yes, what Dee said about free will is good to remember. And to keep our compassion and help strong for the victims. Do you think God is running out of millstones? 🙂

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  70. Lowlandseer: That’s almost as comical as calling original sin comical.

    I can’t tell if you are being deliberately obtuse.
    I will assume good will.

    I meant of course that there is dark comedy in citing original sin as the reason for the silence of Jesus in the case of a 12 year old baptized Christian girl who prays for help.

    What does original sin have to do with an innocent 12 year old girl who is praying intensely to God during abuse, and who encounters silence?

    I thought Jesus saved believers, including prayerful little girls, from original sin?
    You seem to be saying no.
    Which sounds just awful.

    Cindy Clemishire was accused of being a sexual predator at the age of 12.
    Is that what you mean?

    Please clarify.

    Feel free to use more than 10 words in your reply.

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  71. I am kind of worried that these videos are themselves a Trojan horse. Rich noted that the videos demonized the takeover as “woke”, while Max noted that this was lead be NeoCalvinists. However, the video in question was made by a man named Jon Harris. Mr. Harris is a documented Neo Confederate, and a promoter of Robert Lewis Dabney, and similar theologians. He’s also impersonated a college professor to promote his own works.
    https://wthrockmorton.com/2022/07/25/the-lost-cause-is-coming-to-town/
    I’m no fan of groups using underhanded means to take over churches, be it the SBC or Theobro Jon Harris. (Harris is quite critical of Rachel Denhollander as well.)

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  73. Max: these guys just need to keep their mouth shut

    Yes, I agree.

    As a person who experiences the direct presence of Jesus (as I believe you have said), what is your answer?
    You seem to have figured it out in your own case?

    What do you do or think that is different than a prayerful child?

    Please understand that I too am Christian and I am not being flippant.

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  77. I think “woke” was the pejorative this church used by the leadership to rally their Neo-Confederate/MAGA-cultist/Christian Nationalist members to stop the takeover by the Neo-Cals. Regardless of the fact they are not “woke.” (far from it in fact). But is it certainly a raw meat rallying cry for the MAGA crowd. Looks me it is like Stalinist Russia is fighting Nazi Germany. I wish both would have annihilated each other. Same goes with JD Greear and Jon Harris.

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  78. Some of the biggest church groups to abuse women and children have been IFB and Gothardite churches. If you look at their theology, they are far from Neo-Cal or even historic Calvinist. They are also anything but “woke.” IFB churches are also congregational in their church polity (at least on paper), but in reality it is Moses model / authoritarian pastor who runs the show. Same goes with Calvary Chapel. Not woke and sure as h**l not Calvinist.

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  79. Abigail,
    “If Calvinism is so correct…why do you need stealth to sell it?”

    Good question Abigail. There is a strong sense within these, ‘we know best’ people & groups that they are the exception rather than the rule. You can attribute this mentality to countries too as is the case right now. Others are somehow inferior, not to be trusted and don’t deserve any level status with us.
    Arrogance & Pride (Necessity) knows no law.
    Attributed to Cromwell and apparently later used by Kaiser Wilhelm 11 prior to WW 1.
    Not quoted much these days but certainly acted upon as is the case right now.
    So much for the brotherhood of mankind and mutual respect to maintain peace.
    Somewhat strange when you consider that people who hold this mentality also say that they believe in eternal places like heaven & the Kingdom of God where citizenship entails love, grace, humility, peace, worship through humble service to God and others.

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  80. Ian Docker: Arrogance & Pride (Necessity) knows no law.

    “Necessity knows no law” appears to fit the New Calvinist movement. The new reformers are so sure they are correct, that they alone hold truth, that they have come into the kingdom for such a time as this … that they justify stealth and deception by necessity to capture all the churches they can for the glory of their movement, for the glory of God. It is, indeed, arrogance in motion … because, of course, God has nothing to do with such darkness.

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  81. Ras al Ghul: Some of the biggest church groups to abuse women and children have been IFB and Gothardite churches … Not woke and sure as h**l not Calvinist.

    Oh yeah, the New Calvinists are not the only cult practicing abuse of trust and power. The groups you mention are some of the most notorious. However, the NeoCals currently appear to hold a large market share of religious malpractice, as reported by TWW and elsewhere. It’s a joke to play the woke card on these characters … their theology is the driver of the bad behavior we are seeing in their ranks (IMO).

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  84. Max: Oh yeah, the New Calvinists are not the only cult practicing abuse of trust and power.The groups you mention are some of the most notorious.However, the NeoCals currently appear to hold a large market share of religious malpractice, as reported by TWW and elsewhere.It’s a joke to play the woke card on these characters … their theology is the driver of the bad behavior we are seeing in their ranks (IMO).

    For better or worse, Dee’s blog tends aggregates the Neo-Cal offenders. Others focus and aggregate the IFB or Roman Catholic church or the Assemblies of God. It does not make sense for Dee to reinvent the wheel for those when other bloggers are doing a good job already. Of course if one looks at strictly the monetary, civil, and criminal penalties for abuse cases right now the leader of the pack is the Roman Catholic church (based upon criminal convictions, plea deals, legal settlements, bankruptcies, etc.). So why a specific theology likely plays a role, it is not a necessary nor sufficient cause. It is an oversimplification to state that X theology results in Y abusers and Z religious malpractice. People on this site (and elsewhere) need to remember that.

    As an aside, the same stealth takeovers being done by the Neo-Cals have been done (and being done) by the NAR/Dominionist types in various Pentecostal/Charismatic churches and organizations. What has happened to the Assemblies of God is a perfect example of that. Again, other blogs cover that malpractice.

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  85. Sandy,

    “Anything other than silence.

    Any twitch or shimmer of the soul can be amplified and actualized.
    It happens all the time.
    Silence on the other hand leads to despair.
    Maybe there is an alchemy of silence that we all are missing.”
    ++++++++++++++

    thank you. sorry if my questions sounded like a challenge.

    i suppose i would have answered in a similar way.

    yes, i get very frustrated by radio silence,

    when I know God is very capable of manifesting a presence that our bodies (let alone feeling / emotions / heart / soul… that viable part of us which we all have) can feel and respond to.

    i have observed that the more demonstrably powerful things happen when we are in groups, with a corporate focus on God, seeking and openness.

    this is not a stretch for God (responding to a group hug, so to speak)

    but it’s not practical. the dire moments when we need God’s demonstrable intervention expressly don’t happen in such settings.

    no group hug, but a horrible moment instead with selfish malice and terror, both antithetical to God.

    but this shouldn’t be a stretch for God, either. if God is the pat answer omni-this that & the other.

    i realize i’m not being helpful at all, here, and just rehashing ideas already expressed.

    …sorting this out is a process if ever there was one.

    i’ll keep working on it…

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  88. dee: So, did the videos tell the truth or not?

    The videos certainly documented the stealth and deception employed to takeover their church. But, I don’t believe “woke” was the underlying driver. The New Calvinists are a lot of things, but I wouldn’t characterize their movement, nor the individuals involved in the takeover attempt, as woke. It could be that Summit pulled the race card at the last minute to get Faith Baptist “troublemakers” out of the way … a strategy that failed in the end. IMO, millions of Southern Baptists still don’t realize or just don’t care that their denomination is being Calvinized … so they blame bad behavior by the New Calvinists on woke or something else, rather than their mission to “reform” everything in SBC life.

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  96. Sandy
    To be brief, by dismissing the Fall and Original Sin, you set aside the clear testimony of God, the cross of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit throughout the ages.

    Adam sinned and in so doing dragged all of creation down with him for which it has had to suffer the consequences ever since.

    God clearly and consistently reminds us of that in his word over the centuries.

    Christs atoning sacrifice becomes meaningless and mankind overlooks the fact that God has addressed the issue of sin, forgiveness and restoration and thus negates the question of “why doesn’t he do something?”

    The Holy Spirit’s testimony to the truth and his application of it to our lives is waved off.

    Why? Because man will not have Christ to rule over them. They have no king but Caesar. Worse still, they want to be God answerable to nobody but themselves. They make their idols of wood and stone in their own image and choose what they want to believe. Hence you can be a “ non traditional Christian” or find the idea of God’s glory offensive, even when He says He will not give it to another.

    The problem with all this is that you have no one else to blame but yourself and so you go round in circles again.

    Other issues are questions of permission and will. Did God permit this or did He will it? That’s easy to answer for the liberated autonomous man. You try to hold God to account. Another version of the pot questioning the potter. There are things beyond your reach and right to know. “These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an oneas thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes” Psalm 50:12

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  97. Ras al Ghul,

    Yes those theologies have so much in common (their roots in the same false top-down ecumenism), they can be made to serve as crucial mainspring, the “differences” are cosmetic for people who “like that sort of thing”. Even most prominent “charismatics” are Holy Spirit-unbelievers. As between fake “woke” and fake “anti-woke” that is another sad modernistic similarity. The postmils relabelled as pretribs and now postmil again like chameleons. They are uneasy with people like me who have church hopped just that little bit too widely and too long – I don’t talk any of their dialects any more on purpose. They all take away from “This Book” everything that through Jesus’ ascension liberates us from being under somebody’s thumb. (For reference “submit” means to converse – the Empire was very cold – but only with people that show themselves worth conversing with.)

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  98. Lowlandseer,

    LLS, you hereby explicitly accused Sandy and by extension Cindy, of “associating with adulterers” v 18.

    You said exactly what the bosses that harmed them both and my friend’s friend, and almost my classmate – and lots more of us verbally – said to them. Word for word. Without a jot different.

    And effectively admitting that you are also like that (v 21) (having claimed to usurp God’s place in our minds).

    So you see I parse exhaustively everything you quote and pretend not to quote, with my very own assertion of (actual) Bible inerrancy and plenary verbal inspiration, and my up to date take on the WCF and “Sinners in the hands of an angry God”, which were composed when puritan villages were a flatter pyramid.

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  99. Lowlandseer: To be brief, by dismissing the Fall and Original Sin, you set aside the clear testimony of God

    Dear Lowlandseer,

    With all due respect, this is not working, for me.
    Is it working for you?
    I want it to work for you.

    Let me try another tack.
    Thanks for your patience.

    Try this.

    Go to the internet and print an 8×12 picture of an “innocent 12 year old Christian girl posing prettily in a white dress” (search that phrase). Just pick a nice one out from your search.

    Put her in a nice frame and prop her up near your computer screen.

    We’ll call her Mary, or give her the name of, let’s say, your daughter.

    We are going to pretend (brace yourself) that she is being routinely abused in the name of Jesus by a traveling preacher, “a man of God,” in her own home, under the trusting eyes of her parents.

    She prays desperately and sincerely to the Holy Ghost for some sign, any sign, that her body and soul can be saved. She hears nothing, although one time a creaking floorboard seems to scare the abuser away. She hopefully and faithfully attributes this to God. But it never happens again.

    Pretend you are an angel!

    You accidentally hear her prayer and you find yourself able to speak to her.

    Ok, now in a clear yet stern voice—read to her the comment you wrote to me.

    “Hello Mary, we heard you!”
    Then all your words verbatim.

    Does this work for you?
    For Mary?
    For God?
    Why or why not?

    Why?

    I myself do not know why.
    I wish to learn.
    That’s why I’m here.

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  102. dee: Much of that came from the church itself, which has a more rural flavor.

    It’s not wise to underestimate the will and stubbornness of a bunch of country church folks! Some of that character is healthy, some of it is not. They were there before you got there, and they will be there a long time after you are gone. In this case, they rightfully put a giant in his place before the giant took their place.

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  105. I believe that people should be allowed to worship in the manner that they see fit. I am Lutheran and wish to worship in the manner that my church does. Of course, we should be open to scrutiny. Why should someone who is a Reformed SBC pastor come into my church and change the style of worship to mimic their ethos? I say live and let live. I support their stand even if I prefer to worship as a Lutheran.
    I was in their area this morning, looking at some glass samples for changes I’m making at home. That area is booming, and I think the land they sit on is worth even more than they think. Raleigh is built out, and Knightdale is nearby. They were sitting ducks for the juggernaut.

    Greear comes across as a manipulative and ruthless individual who seeks to exert his influence. I am in awe of how these folks stood up to him.

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  108. Ras al Ghul: Dee’s blog tends aggregates the Neo-Cal offenders.

    Perhaps, because a lot of the regular Wartburgers had very bad experiences in New Calvinist churches … including Dee. There are plenty of bad-boy stories in their ranks for the watchblog community to report on. But, as you note, they don’t have the corner on such behavior … authoritarians and assorted other bad actors can be found in other denominations and movements.

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  111. Sandy,

    This is not my discussion, so perhaps my intrusion is unwelcome. I feel the force of your concerns. For my part, I am trying to hold on to the Jesus Story, and in that story, God is there, is personal, powerful, active, and good. Personally, I find it hard to reconcile all of these affirmations with what we see around us.

    I doubt that I can provide an “account” of God that will comfort in the face of the horrors that we “made in the image of God, but ‘fallen’ therefrom” creatures routinely inflict on one another.

    But there are some things that I have found helpful.

    A first thought is that “some ways of thinking and speaking about God are incoherent”. The incoherence could be internal contradiction (many consider simultaneous affirmation of absolute Divine sovereignty and human responsibility to be an example of this), or it could be even more fundamental in that what is affirmed evacuates meaning from the entire process of discourse.

    An example of this second kind of incoherence, and one that lies near the heart of consensus evangelical thinking about God, is discussed in an intriguing essay by David B Hart (a controversial philosopher in the Orthodox tradition), “God, Creation and Evil: The Moral Meaning of creatio ex nihilo“,

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/god-creation-and-evil.pdf

    The TL;DR of Hart’s argument is that we cannot coherently affirm both that God is good and that He created the world, knowing that it might turn out as badly as it has, without supposing that in the end He will put everything right. For Hart, this means that “no one will finally be lost”; a comforting thought about the innocents who are mistreated, but uncomfortable (to consensus Evangelicals and doubtless to many Orthodox) in that Hart thinks that even their abusers will eventually be purified and reconciled to their Creator.

    This may not be much comfort, but it might at least be helpful to grapple with Hart’s argument that “our conventional language about God is not coherent.”

    A second thought, which I hope is not too controversial, is that “ordinarily, God works in the world through ordinary means.” This includes rescue from abuse — TWW itself is an example of the ordinary means that God ordinarily works through to oppose this evil.

    (this view opens me to the charge of antisupernaturalism, but I think it’s simply sensible engagement with the biblical story — extraordinary things did on occasion happen then, and perhaps occasionally still happen, but the story does not warrant the assumption that the extraordinary is the customary way in which God works in the world. That way lies deeply harmful teachings like “word of faith” and other forms of what is, in effect, IMO magical thinking)

    What I take from this thought is that “if I want God’s comfort to find people, it may be necessary for me to be involved in producing that comfort.”

    That is not much help for your example of an abused child for whom there is no “ordinary working of God” help to be found. But it does provide a counter to despair — God is not absent, though due to our limitations and shortcomings as His agents in the world, He is also not as present and efficaciously active as we would like Him to be.

    I recognize that this is a pretty inadequate answer.

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  112. Lowlandseer:
    Sandy
    To be brief, by dismissing the Fall and Original Sin, you set aside the clear testimony of God, the cross of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit throughout the ages.

    Adam sinned and in so doing dragged all of creation down with him for which it has had to suffer the consequences ever since.

    God clearly and consistently reminds us of that in his word over the centuries.

    Christs atoning sacrifice becomes meaningless and mankind overlooks the fact that God has addressed the issue of sin, forgiveness and restoration and thus negates the question of “why doesn’t he do something?”

    The Holy Spirit’s testimony to the truth and his application of it to our lives is waved off.

    Why? Because man will not have Christ to rule over them. They have no king but Caesar. Worse still, they want to be God answerable to nobody but themselves.They make their idols of wood and stone in their own image and choose what they want to believe. Hence you can be a “ non traditional Christian” or find the idea of God’s glory offensive, even when He says He will not give it to another.

    The problem with all this is that you have no one else to blame but yourself and so you go round in circles again.

    Other issues are questions of permission and will. Did God permit this or did He will it? That’s easy to answer for the liberated autonomous man. You try to hold God to account.Another version of the pot questioning the potter. There are things beyond your reach and right to know. “These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an oneas thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes” Psalm 50:12

    Is it your intention to convey the message you are a cruel Christian?

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  114. Samuel Conner: This is not my discussion, so perhaps my intrusion is unwelcome.

    Hello Samuel,

    Your thoughts are welcome!
    I find God in these places where we come together.
    Thanks to Dee and company for providing this forum which is welcoming of the Spirit.
    This is a powerful, present, and good place.

    For what it’s worth, I find coherence in the following heresy:
    God is not all powerful.
    God is not all present.
    God is not all good.

    God became broken and imperfect in the moment of creation.
    Christ came down to earth at the moment of creation.
    “The Cross” is equivalent to the act of creation.
    “The Fall” happened also to God.
    And creation is now, in every moment.
    Eternity is now.

    Once we realize that, we can realize that much is on our shoulders.
    Together with God we can be powerful.
    Together with God we can be present.
    Together with God we can be good.

    This requires our attention into each moment.
    We often fail at this.
    When we fail at this, we can notice our shortcomings.
    We can forgive each other, we can forgive ourselves, and we can forgive God.
    This is what it means for Jesus to be our Brother.

    Jesus came to forgive us and to love us.
    We came to forgive Jesus and to love him.
    God heals us—and we heal God.
    (Wheel in the fainting couch.)

    As you say: “What I take from this thought is that “if I want God’s comfort to find people, it may be necessary for me to be involved in producing that comfort.””

    All for now.

    May Gods love be with you!

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  115. Muff Potter,

    No doubt it could be argued that Paul didn’t always have the luxury to preface every second statement and every second instruction he shared with the numerous and different faith communities he engaged & corresponded with. After all, he was constantly on the road, in or out of prison, physically working to pay his own bills so he would not be a liability on anyone, while at the same time having his wounds treated and having to always watch his back wherever he went. Talk about time poor and contending with duress.
    Value research and insight around historical conditions, cultural expectations and social norms. But also value the spirit in which scripture was written.

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  116. Samuel Conner,

    The second part of your argument is extremely strong. The psalms and OT prophets are full of phrases like “How long O Lord”.

    Quantifications in Scripture are indeterminate. Many will be lost = more than one person. Those who cheer on the thieves and liars need to consider this. Being saved but as through fire will not be a light thing. Few will be saved = fewer than everybody. The terms on which the innocent will be saved will be different from the terms on which any guilty will be saved. In the next life, time will seem slower in some ways.

    Ordinary means is a continuum.

    It was spiritually powerful people that committed these crimes. Whether theft, whether molestation, whether lying by not teaching children all of (the real) God’s ways. The kingdom of heaven (household of God) is now.

    Almost all christian leaders are united in denying any pneumatology and ORDINARY eschatology (which are the core and essence of the real Gospel phenomenon) which is why “non-calvinist” and “calvinist”, postmil and pretrib, became identical “kingdoms of this world”. By false top-down ecumenism they taught each other how to strongarm and lord it. The entire (untampered with) OT and NT forespell doom for short ration givers (stingy with the actuality and the bread of life).

    One of the ways I read “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven” is that they use sacred power to usurp their sphere of responsibility. They themselves taught us that there is no spiritual angle to the universe, letting themselves off the hook for obstructing Holy Spirit in our lives. By alleging we were superstitious for wanting to believe (untampered with) Scriptures they are the ones who have installed a superstition, in their own lives in the end, damaging us nigh on fatally first.

    The opponent of Arminius – an excellent and truth-filled Calvinist of at least the proper sort – was Gomarus. Arminius did not mandate the cruelties Archbishop Laud dealt out, nor the degrading antics I’m reading about in my church history readings, nor lack of prayer teaching.

    Pneumatology = we were always meant to know Holy Spirit in order to know Jesus. Others were always meant to see Holy Spirit in us in order to see Jesus: without understanding Who Jesus was going to be, OT believers always already knew and know this. They are looking for a team that doesn’t destroy our precious individuality. The NT models both one and two stage initiation. The life (feedings of the thousands and Prov 21: 10-31) comes from belief and belief comes from full enough teaching. The purpose of the team will be that all its members pray (in their style) nonstop for everybody and everything – St Paul says – without awaiting prior permission from bigwigs first.

    Eschatology = this powered team became continuously active on their way down the mountain of Ascension. All gifts manifest but not according to patterns fixed by bigwigs. This will continue thus through whatever degrees of tribulations. History continues along the same principles: only circumstances and means will vary.

    What kind of precious mettle will pull us through and did we put some of that in each others’ souls by trading gifts with each other in our personal initiative and discretion? We learned the hard way which padre not to look to.

    Ian Docker,

    I think of the epistles as a series of bullet-points, and the Gospel and OT cameos as dynamic icons to unpack. Letters were read by strangers en route. Logic was sometimes reversed (a style in those days).

    In intuitively preaching a lot from throughout Romans, Martyn Lloyd-Jones (Calvinist-Methodist serving as Congregational) was connecting ALL of it with the WHOLE Bible.

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  117. dee:
    Ras al Ghul,

    It’s time. However, as an AoG pew sitter, we have also been infiltrated by Calvinistas. Far too much teaching about the sovereignty of God—which always miraculously benefits the teacher/preacher of same. God is sovereign, but I hate how God is given “credit” for abusive behaviors by those who tout God’s sovereignty. I think free will is responsible for the abuse, not God.

    You will be seeing more things about the AoG here. It’s time to call out the leadership at the mothership. Stay tuned. No Calvinistas in these coming stories.

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  119. That may be case in some local congregations, but the mothership in Springfield and the districts and AoG megachurches that is far from the case.

    The bigger problem with the AoG is the Latter Rain/NAR/Dominionist/7 Mountains excrement that been infitrating for over 50 years. Think Hillsong and the Australian AoG.

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  120. What is worse for the AoG is that because of their flawed pneumology (imho) they have been very susceptible to the stuff I mentioned, ever since Asuza. Much easier for abusers and control freaks to use “The Spirit led me to this” or whatever in a Pentecostal denomination.

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  122. Sandy: May Gods love be with you!

    And with you.

    ———

    Not sure if your “manifesto” was intended to solicit reaction or engagement, but I’ll note that, to the limited extent that I understand “Process Theology” (and that extent is very limited), your affirmations seem to me reminiscent of that. Do you think of your views as a form of Process Theology?

    Just wondering. I am much less finicky about people’s theologies than I formerly was. It seems to me from decades of observation that what is customarily thought of as “sound theology” does not strongly correlate with “virtuous living.” I suspect that what is going on is that people live out of their desires more than out of their beliefs (and perhaps they choose their beliefs, not necessarily consciously, to affirm or justify their pursuit of what they want). It seems to me, again from long observation, that there is a presumption among Evangelicals that “if you get the teaching right, right living will naturally follow.” I no longer think that is true.

    I am moving toward the view that the test of a theology in an individual’s life is not “does it conform well to this or that Doctrinal Standard” but rather “does it lead to good in the person’s life.” By that test, it may be that different people need different theologies.

    To turn this around, the above-mentioned presumption means that it is assumed that “if a person is living righteously, it is because they are taught well.” But maybe that is not true; perhaps the work of God in people’s hearts is deeper than “the content of doctrinal belief”. Perhaps God changes people by giving them a thirst for what is good and, thus changed, they pursue what is good not out of doctrinal conviction, but because they are thirsty for what is good.

    And if a person is thirsty for what is good, he or she will pursue that regardless of the details of his/her theology.

    So I have become reluctant to criticize people for what they believe. I try to perceive what they value by how they live.

    I wonder what kinds of theology would be helpful to narcissists, what kinds would be helpful to sociopaths, what kinds would be helpful to people afflicted with paraphilias, etc., etc.

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  124. Samuel Conner: Not sure if your “manifesto” was intended to solicit reaction or engagement

    Yes!
    I hope everyone might chime in.

    Your comment makes sense to me.

    I think a bouquet of theologies is needed.

    I think God is a multitudinous evolving phenomenon, requiring many theologies.

    The demand for a single perfect correct theology is killing us.

    Yes to process theology though I am not well versed in its details.

    Having said that, I do think some theologies drag us down—perhaps most of them, honestly—while others tend to lift us up and connect us.

    The search for the good is essential.

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  126. Arlo: I came to this realization a while back. All the “correct” teaching in the world means absolutely nothing if there isn’t any good fruit. We’ve been taught very poorly.

    I agree. I have found that “Christian living” all too often boils down to route memorization of Scripture and local doctrinal rules. This had led to my opinion that the typical Sunday worship services should be replaced with action like charity work and fun family gatherings.

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  127. Arlo: We’ve been taught very poorly.

    For some reason, the teaching doesn’t consistently “reach” people at the level of “motivation/desire/worship”, which I think is the stronger influence on “how one lives” than is “content of doctrinal belief”.

    The “second great command” is “love neighbor as self”, Does the teaching lead to that?

    The “first great command” is “love God with your whole being”. But there are different ways to “love God”, or different reasons why one might “love God.”

    One might love God because one perceives that God is beautiful and one is attracted to that beauty.

    Alternatively, one might “love God” because one perceives God to be the source of benefits that one highly prizes. One loves God not because on loves God Himself, but because one loves the benefits one believes one will get from God. God is the instrument by which one obtains what one wants.

    I think this second kind of love is fundamentally self-oriented, and might be less likely than the first kind of love to lead to “love of neighbor as self”.

    —

    “What’s in it for me” style religion is, IMO, dominant in US. Perhaps that’s part of the trouble in the churches.

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  129. Sandy,

    My perception is that the assumption has been that it’s OK to appeal to self-interest as an evangelistic approach, because later on, after people are integrated into local congregations and have been well-taught, their hearts will be changed and all the fruits of the Spirit will manifest. I’m not confident that this assumption is valid; perhaps “how one comes to faith” colors everything afterward.

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  130. Samuel Conner: What’s in it for me” style religion is, IMO, dominant in US. Perhaps that’s part of the trouble in the churches.

    Ask people why they are members or attend a certain church,more than likely they will say “l like the music” “they have a good children’s program.” “My friends go there.” “I like the preaching” Almost always the answer is a reflection of the “what’s in it for me” attitude.

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  132. I live quite near the mothership of the AoG and Springfield. Close enough if I leave now we could meet for lunch there very easily. And I can assure you the ESV and Calvinism is working its way through this area of AoG churches.

    Heady brew, the ideas of “God told me” and “It is predestined anyway” mixed together.

    That makes my opinions, if I adhere to those, unarguably correct and if you disagree with me you are in rebellion against God.

    Talk about a banana split with double fudge and two cherries on top for the narcissist, with no limits on a sick imagination…..

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  133. Dan: Ask people why they are members or attend a certain church, more than likely they will say “l like the music” “they have a good children’s program.” “My friends go there.” “I like the preaching” Almost always the answer is a reflection of the “what’s in it for me” attitude.

    Yep. William Booth (founder, Salvation Army) was right when he prophesied:

    “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”

    The main thing is “Me”, not Jesus, in many churches.

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  136. Maybe nothing, but then we may hear Jesus say something like this:
    “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Mt. 16:24 Or Paul say something like this: “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship”.Romans 12:1

    Maybe Jesus calls his diciples to more than looking out for one’s self- interests. After all,that seems to be what everyone does these days. Maybe Jesus is calling us to “Live like fools by another set of rules.”(Ken Medema) So,instead of asking “what does this church have for me” one could ask “what gifts do I have to offer this church”? Or “Where can I find God’s love and share God’s love in and through the body of Christ.” Sometimes the answer to those questions may be found when one enters a small church where twenty or thirty people gather. Thirteen years ago I found such a place. Few amenities but plenty of opportunities to love, be loved, and share God’s love.

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  137. Muff Potter,

    “And what is so wrong with looking out for one’s own self-interest?” Maybe nothing, but then I hear Jesus say something like this: Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.MT. 16;24; And then I see Paul has written something like this: “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship” Romans 12:1

    Then I start to think maybe there is something more to church membership and attendance than having my self-interests served. After all everybody wants that. Maybe disciples are called to be and do more: to Love God, and love and serve others in the name and image of Jesus Christ. As Ken Medema wrote “We are called to live like fools, by another set of rules.”

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  139. Max: (the world and most of the “church” doesn’t have any idea what I just said there)

    This lines up with my own experience.

    The consistent theme throughout the New Testament is the Pharisees and scribes, who taught the Law, were completely blind. Ironically, the regular citizens and the outcasts often knew exactly what was going on. The Pharisees who wore fancy priestly robes, performed the rituals, and dwelled within the synagogues were the ones whose hearts were furthest from God.

    Did the church teachers tell me this? No. I learned this through prayer and after I left my last (Calvinistic) church.

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  144. Max: There’s no better “fool” on earth than a fool for Jesus.(the world and most of the “church” doesn’t have any idea what I just said there)

    What about those who take (and teach) that In Reverse?
    Where the more stupid, ignorant, and incompetent you are, the more Godly and Spiritual you are?

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  145. linda: Heady brew, the ideas of “God told me” and “It is predestined anyway” mixed together.

    Sounds as dangerous a combination as Utter Predestination and Hal Lindsay End Time Prophecy.
    Where “Christians For Nuclear War – It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied!” becomes more than just a meme.

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  147. Samuel Conner,

    “Perhaps God changes people by giving them a thirst for what is good and, thus changed, they pursue what is good not out of doctrinal conviction, but because they are thirsty for what is good.

    And if a person is thirsty for what is good, he or she will pursue that regardless of the details of his/her theology.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i love how you phrased that.

    i think there are many ways people find God and grow with God. pursuing what is good (kind, honest, selfless, responsible, etc.) is as viable as any.

    it just will be off-brand. (which to me is more genuine)

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  148. Sandy,

    “Having said that, I do think some theologies drag us down—perhaps most of them, honestly—while others tend to lift us up and connect us.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    seems to me the point of the approved theologies is solely mathematical.

    cruelty? eh, no big deal.

    stupidity? it’s ok because faith in the theology itself magically makes it smart.

    good grief…. (couldn’t think of anything else to say)

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  151. Max,

    “Jesus was “off-brand”. He stood against religious systems cluttered with rules and regulations which enslaved folks to law, which did not produce spiritual life. He still does.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    there are many ways i could describe why i’m ‘done’.

    (i fantasize about such conversations, with previous church people)

    one thesis statement:

    christian culture feels like living inside television commercials for dishwasher detergent and Pepsi.

    …inventing problems & manipulating people to feel worried and ashamed about having these problems, so they can then sell the answer with great musical fanfare

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  153. elastigirl: christian culture feels like living inside television commercials for dishwasher detergent and Pepsi.

    …inventing problems & manipulating people to feel worried and ashamed about having these problems, so they can then sell the answer with great musical fanfare

    The “Christian” culture is incredibly salesy and hollow. Go to church at an arbitrary time to “learn” about God, even though He is accessible at any time. Talk about the issue for the day without any self-reflection or meaningful change. Talk about your obligatory charity work that never helps or solves core societal issues, like the turbulent political climate, the skyrocketing cost of living, or how the younger generations are anxious and depressed. Blame them for not being “Christian” enough. But wait! For only $199.99, you, too, can increase your Spiritual Level, by purchasing three books on Christian Living. Don’t forget to donate to your church while you’re at it! After the sermon, then patronize your local restaurants, where you start the cycle all over again.

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  154. Max: … are not necessarily the Body of Christ.

    I will never forget the instance where my former church made a big fuss over going to Africa to evangelize. They had pictures of the village they were going to distribute Bibles to. I saw the scrawny gardens they had for sustenance farming. I was the only one who noticed and brought up potential ways they could have plenty of food if we raised the funds for it. The ladies nor the elder heard anything I said; they kept talking about the “important work” of “spreading the gospel” to different countries.

    I didn’t see that giant, waving red flag for what it was until months later.

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  157. Max: The videos certainly documented the stealth and deception employed to takeover their church.But, I don’t believe “woke” was the underlying driver.The New Calvinists are a lot of things, but I wouldn’t characterize their movement, nor the individuals involved in the takeover attempt, as woke.It could be that Summit pulled the race card at the last minute to get Faith Baptist “troublemakers” out of the way … a strategy that failed in the end.IMO, millions of Southern Baptists still don’t realize or just don’t care that their denomination is being Calvinized … so they blame bad behavior by the New Calvinists on woke or something else, rather than their mission to “reform” everything in SBC life.

    Indeed. You answered Dee’s question better than I could.

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  158. Things aren’t always as they appear. Taking time to understand both sides can help us avoid unfair judgment. What are your thoughts after reading this letter from the Summit Elders?

    https://summitchurch.com/directional-elder-letter

    Directional Elder Letter to The Summit Church

    Dear Summit Family,

    As some of you may have seen, our pastor and our church are the subject of a recent documentary series about our attempted church merger with Faith Baptist Church in Knightdale. We received no advance notification about this documentary, nor were we consulted about the issues discussed within it. We saw it for the first time when the episodes were shared with the public.

    The story being told misrepresents the events as well as our intentions in this process. The Summit sought to pursue this path with the utmost integrity at every step. As your directional elders, our responsibility is to provide leadership and accountability for our church, and over the last few weeks, we have made ourselves available to answer any questions. We have not spoken publicly about this yet, however, as we believed that it would be wise to refrain from responding in any public way until all parts were released.

    In 2023, we launched a mobile campus at Knightdale High School because several of our members lived in the Knightdale area and had a desire to better reach people in that area. Shortly after our launch there, the leadership of Faith Baptist Church (FBC) in Knightdale approached us and asked if we would be open to discussing the potential of them joining our Knightdale campus, due to a decline in attendance and financial stability. At their request, over the next several months, our church leadership (including both staff and directional elders) worked with FBC’s leadership as we explored the viability of this proposal, which functionally meant the members of FBC dissolving their church, joining our Knightdale campus, and giving the church’s property to The Summit Church as the permanent location for our Knightdale Campus.

    Each party formed feasibility teams that were tasked with discerning the practical and spiritual wisdom of this decision. During this process, both Summit Church and FBC consulted their own legal counsel and worked through their respective congregational approval processes. Throughout the process, we took steps to confirm compatibility, answer any questions, and build connections between the two congregations. These were enjoyable and were largely well-received. As this process unfolded, each side sensed that the Lord was in this venture.

    In January of 2024, the leadership of Faith Baptist expressed a clear desire to move forward with the process, and on February 19th, 2024, our Directional Elders elected to pursue it as well. As we mentioned, this would mean FBC dissolving their church by congregational vote and its members joining The Summit Church, something both sides were very aware of.

    FBC leadership called for a congregational vote, and on March 3rd, 2024, FBC voted 97–55 in favor of dissolving their church and giving their property to The Summit Church, more than meeting the required 51% threshold required by the FBC constitution. The FBC bylaws provided clear guidelines on who should be considered an active member, and FBC leaders worked with their church’s legal counsel to ensure those guidelines were met prior to the member vote. However, some individuals in the church filed legal action in state court to try to stop FBC from proceeding with the vote.

    It is important to note that this lawsuit was brought against Faith Baptist Church by some of its members and other interested parties, not against The Summit Church, because The Summit Church was not a party to that legal proceeding. FBC leadership was unanimous in their belief they had acted in strict accordance with their bylaws and the state guidelines of NC. A state court judge issued a preliminary injunction, however, which temporarily halted the dissolution proceedings until the lawsuit was resolved. During this time, FBC was quickly running out of money and requested assistance from Summit to help them meet their financial obligations. On May 2nd, 2024 we approved a grant of $170,000 to help FBC pay accrued and anticipated operating costs, salaries, and severance. This included ensuring that Faith Baptist Preschool would remain open through the scheduled end of the school year in May 2024. Faith Baptist Church leadership told us that if The Summit Church had not given the grant, they would have no choice but to close all operations, including the preschool, immediately. Around the same time, FBC’s leadership made the difficult decision to file for bankruptcy, and The Summit Church reiterated our willingness to purchase the property if given the opportunity, as well as to satisfy the financial claims that were part of FBC’s bankruptcy proceedings.

    As part of the bankruptcy proceedings, the group that filed the state lawsuit requested from The Summit Church documents between our church and FBC leadership. We voluntarily produced those documents with the agreement that these documents would not be disclosed on the internet, because we had concerns about statements being lifted out of context and misrepresented in public. We had seen charges and character assaults made against our leadership on the internet related to this case that had nothing to do with the facts in question regarding the property. At first they agreed, but later in the bankruptcy proceeding, that group (which had expanded to include non-FBC members) sought additional internal documents from Summit leaders and to depose some of our leaders. As we processed these requests, we grew concerned that these actions were no longer solely about disputing the legitimacy of the vote, but potentially part of a larger smear campaign involving our church and our pastor.

    During this process, it also became clear to our directional elders, staff leadership, and FBC leaders that these legal procedures could continue for years. Even though we had nothing to hide, and it was clear that dissolving and uniting with The Summit Church was the desire of the majority of FBC members as expressed by congregational vote, we determined that continuing with extensive legal battles was not a wise use of our time or money. The point for us had never been acquiring property, but reaching people in Knightdale, and by this point, the property had become a distraction to that mission. We were also mindful of the Apostle Paul’s admonition that sometimes it is better to suffer wrong than to put on a spectacle before the world. We had not entered Knightdale looking for property. When Faith Baptist Church approached us with the idea of joining with us, we had been eager to consider it. But now that the property was an obstacle to the mission of reaching people, we believed it was the will of the Holy Spirit to pursue a permanent campus elsewhere, and so we walked away.

    In December of 2024, all parties to the bankruptcy lawsuit (which now included The Summit Church as an ‘interested non-party’), negotiated a settlement that permitted the group who filed the state lawsuit to keep the property and the building. Many of the FBC members have become part of our Summit family and they worship and serve at our Knightdale campus. We are grateful they are a part of our family and movement. The essence of a church, of course, is the people, not the property, and we now recognize it was indeed the Holy Spirit’s plan to unite these believers to our church, even though the property did not come with them. What God put into the heart of Faith Baptist leadership and its congregational majority did indeed happen.

    We believe it is important to be open with you as a church. Despite the claims being promoted in this video series, our church never sought to take anything from Faith Baptist Church. We simply responded to a request from FBC leadership to prayerfully consider uniting with them. Prior to their reaching out, Pastor J.D. had never even heard of Faith Baptist and had no relationship with Pastor Jason Little. When together we believed that moving forward would help us fulfill Christ’s mission, we moved forward at their invitation, in accordance with the expressed will of the congregation as outlined in their bylaws. We did not, and do not, believe it would have been right to walk away from these brothers and sisters in their struggle after we had agreed to their request for help. However, there came a point at which we, together with the leadership of FBC, decided that the road to maintaining possession of the property would cost more than we were willing to spend, so the decision was made to pursue a settlement, effectively ending all litigation.

    We want to be clear that the Summit Directional Elder board (which contains a mixture of staff and lay elders) was heavily involved throughout the process, making all major decisions along the way, and, when necessary, according to our bylaws, even calling for a congregational vote of Summit Church members. The narrative being told that our pastor or pastoral team used manipulation, dishonesty, bullying tactics, or engaged in conspiracy is simply untrue, and we are deeply grieved by it. Our pastor and leadership team have nothing to hide–as the elders of The Summit Church, we looked over their shoulder at every step.

    Our mission at The Summit Church is to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit as we seek to make disciples in RDU and around the world. For us and Faith Baptist’s leadership, this has always been about Christ’s mission of impacting the community of Knightdale with the gospel. Our mission has never been about acquiring property, but about reaching the people in Knightdale. When acquiring the Faith Baptist property became a distraction to that mission, we walked away from it. By God’s grace, we continue to see that community impacted by the gospel, and look forward to many more lives being changed by our presence in that community.

    The Summit Church Directional Elders

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  159. Andrea,

    Wow. The lawyers sure worked overtime on that response. I wonder how much they charged?

    I’m so glad that the Summit is “impacting the community by the gospel,” and lives are being changed by the Summit’s presence in the community. The presence of Faith Baptist has similarly impacted the lives of many in that community.

    I’m looking forward to hearing part 3. For once, a mega church is forced to listen to another perspective. That POV is presented by those who believe the Gospel as much as any member of the Summit and are as smart as anyone presenting the Summit’s perspective.

    The word “gaslight” comes to mind as I read this. That’s not the first time I’ve thought of this word about the Summit.

    Also, being wordy doesn’t sound convincing. It comes across as obfuscation.

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  160. Andrea,

    Part 3 is available on YouTube, and at 20:25 in the video, Judge Warren, who was overseeing the bankruptcy case, can be heard saying that he is going to shine all the light he can on the case and that Summit has been involved since day one. He denied the protective order that Summit sought.

    Summit’s description of the work of Directional Elders says, in part, that they are an extra layer of accountability for the lead pastor and the staff and that they can “put on the brakes by saying no”. Perhaps they should have done so at an earlier point when text messaging indicated that Pastor Greear was in “fight mode” after the TRO was granted by the state court (see 40:00 in episode 2).

    I found it interesting to see the church growth dynamics involved in this situation, and I wish the videos had explored more of that perspective instead of suggesting an underlying woke agenda on the part of Summit.

    I came across an article in Outreach magazine describing Chris Hodges’s philosophy of church growth (Hodges is a non-denominational mega church pastor in Alabama):

    As long as there is a heaven and there is a hell, [church] growth is not an option. You’re not growing in order to be larger, you’re growing because heaven and hell are realities.
    …
    We say, “We don’t exist for the people that are here. We exist for the people who are not here yet.”

    Perhaps that philosophy is what led Pastor Little to discount the opinions, preferences, and existing outreach efforts of the members of Faith Baptist Church and instead aim to turn it into a more seeker sensitive church (e.g., praise band instead of choir).

    For those interested in related videos, look up TLDR;Christianity by Kyle Whitt. He was involved to some extent in the production of the CRI videos.

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  161. Andrea: FBC leadership called for a congregational vote, and on March 3rd, 2024, FBC voted 97–55 in favor of dissolving their church and giving their property to The Summit Church, more than meeting the required 51% threshold required by the FBC constitution. The FBC bylaws provided clear guidelines on who should be considered an active member, and FBC leaders worked with their church’s legal counsel to ensure those guidelines were met prior to the member vote. However, some individuals in the church filed legal action in state court to try to stop FBC from proceeding with the vote.

    I think this is a key point. 51% minimum seems low for a congregational decision of this magnitude (the actual percentage was 63.8% in favor of merging) and also there seems to be a suggestion of some membership scrubbing (admittedly some probably was needed of people who’ve died or otherwise left the church but it is necessary to avoid removing people still connected). Were the rules governing the congregation changed?

    As an aside, the second video (episode 1) has “it’s not about us right we want to reach the community it’s about the gospel he took the flags down from off of the podium you know we’ve always had the American flag and the Christian flag yeah he even took the Christian flag off”
    As a non-Christian, what has the American flag to do with the gospel? The Christian Flag also is very much American Protestant in origin and relatively recent in origin (1897) though it has spread elsewhere.
    However that is beside the issue, if Faith Baptist wants to have the American flag during the church service or not, so be it. It is an internal church discussion. Admittedly when both flags were present which one was in the place of honor? I note the US flag code states “When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman’s or speaker’s right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience.”

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  163. ms: We say, “We don’t exist for the people that are here. We exist for the people who are not here yet.”

    The Communists of the last century said the same thing, justifying the atrocities of Their Revolution with the benefits to untold future generations unto Forever in their Perfect Communist State.

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  164. Max: so they blame bad behavior by the New Calvinists on woke or something else, rather than their mission to “reform” everything in SBC life.

    Another parallel to the classic Communists.
    Blaming everything on the Dark Forces of their Enemies rather than their Revolution to the Perfect Communist State no matter what the collateral damage.

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  169. Headless Unicorn Guy: Even if the alternative (Heaven as never-ending Church Service/Testimony Night/Bible Study) doesn’t seem much better

    It’s not to hard to squint and see that heaven and hell are part of an eternal Now.

    Together, we can create heaven in any moment.
    Together, we can create hell in any moment.

    Much (not all!) of Christianity seems intent on the care and feeding of hell fire, and the holding of feet to the flames.

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  171. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, the philosophy that the current members (esp. the older current members) don’t count could lead to an authoritarian and possibly even abusive ends-justify-the-means mindset.

    You will sometimes hear church leaders say that the church is a battleship rather than a cruise ship. In some cases I think the cruise ship metaphor is used to shame and scold current members to motivate them to take more active roles in the church and/or to fall into line under a strict hierarchy of church authority.

    I wish those leaders would be a bit more circumspect in their rhetoric and consider if they really want the church to have the ethos of a battleship, since to me there is little to no room for grace on a battleship and little to no use for children, the disabled, and the elderly on a battleship.

    Of course, metaphors have their limits, and I hope those leaders don’t take the metaphor too seriously. (Likewise for the metaphors of the church as an ark, fishing vessel, or hospital.)

    I’m thankful when church leaders actually do recognize that there is more to church life than fighting battles.

    For two examples I did not otherwise expect:

    Matt Schmucker in his 2005 9 Marks (!) Weekender article on “Cleaning Up the Rolls” counsels “special charity toward elderly members”.

    J.D. Greear wrote in 2020 in “Six Characteristics of Gospel-Shaped Love” that “Jesus said that the most defining characteristic of his church should be its love” and that “our love should feel like family.”

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  172. dee,

    “Also, being wordy doesn’t sound convincing. It comes across as obfuscation.”
    +++++++++++++

    well, if the basis of your argument & presentation is inadequate, all you can be is a pretender.

    when the stakes are high, a pretender who tries very hard at something they are incapable of justifying.

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  173. ms,

    “I’m thankful when church leaders actually do recognize that there is more to church life than fighting battles.

    …two examples…“special charity”…“our love should feel like family.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    i have zero confidence that these words that sound good won’t be twisted into some manifestation of self-serving cruelty.

    mostly out of stupidity. occasionally out of chicanery.

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