“Religious sexual harassment and abuse has become an epidemic. Sadly, it’s not something new. It’s existed since the fall of Adam and Eve. Religion is not exempt. A sacred place meant to be safe and holy has become the breeding ground for violence and evil.”
― Sacred Wandering: Growing Your Faith In The Dark
The path a church must take to deal with the aftermath of the abuse.
The purpose of this post is to educate those who want to engage and help those who have been harmed by the church. It also aims to outline some of the concerns that the victims have in this instance. I wrote a post two days ago in which I made some predictions about the probable response of the victims to the efforts of Eastminster Presbyterian Church to deal with the tragedy. I predicted that the path to reconciliation might be difficult. The church began to do the right thing by recognizing the abuse that had occurred and offering to pay for counseling. But it was only the beginning. There are some other concerns.
When a church commits to doing the right thing, it must be willing to face the pain and anger of the victims. These victims have thought long and hard about their abuse over decades. The church leaders did not. The church must be transparent and vulnerable enough to understand their anger and concerns and engage with the process, however long that might take.
I predicted the involvement with media, which was a no-brainer. There were at least 23 victims.
Two days ago, I wrote Update: Eastminster Presbyterian Church’s (EPC) Investigation Found at least 23 Victims of Past Sexual Abuse and Is Offering Help and a Service of Lament. Some Thoughts About the Victims and the Church’s Response. In the post, I predicted that the media would turn out since this abuse involved, at a minimum, 23 victims. I say at the minimum because I will be speaking to a victim tomorrow who is currently anonymous.
There is apt to be some media attention due to the number of victims. The church would do well to say that this is the response every church and institution should take when being confronted about past abuse reports.
In the first video, you will see Tyson. You will need to go to the KAKE link to see their video and report, and see both Tyson and Andy, who have quickly become the faces of this tragedy.
Here is the link to the KAKE report: ‘The whole thing is disgusting’: Former students abused in Eastminster Presbyterian Church youth program speak out.
Trust, once broken, is difficult to regain, and the church’s current actions are causing some concern for Tyson Stuart and Andy Warren.
Here is what I said in my post two days ago.
- Anger and frustration will be expressed as victims feel vindicated for the abuse they experienced and the indifference of the church until this point.
- There will be anger about the leaders in the past who allowed Weiss to move on and even recommended him to other churches.
- Remember that this response is understandable because of the church’s abject failure to respond 30 years ago.
- …The church would also benefit from having an open-ended conversation with the victims, allowing them to express their concerns.
- Some have lost their faith due to the church’s indifference to their abuse and the pain and suffering they have experienced over the past three decades.
Today, Andy commented on TWW. He reports that the church appears to be unwilling to share the full report digitally. The leaders will drive or fly to the victims so they can sit with them while they read it. This seems to jive with an email I received from a former long-time member during the time of Bodie Weiss. This person is concerned and wants to know how this happened. This person will not be allowed to read the report. Others have reportedly been told that if they want to see it, they must travel to the church to read it under the supervision of the leaders. Tyson has also expressed concern about the church’s seeming lack of transparency.
I firmly believe it has taken this stance in an effort to control the message that is going out about what happened. I spoke with Bryan Robert at Eastminster about this last week for about 30 minutes and told him that it felt like they were trying to keep the cover on this thing, and he didn’t disagree. They are are unwilling to share it digitally, so they are literally going to drive and fly the thing to different places for people to view, which is just ridiculous. He indicated that the session was very strongly divided on how they wanted to handle this. A portion of them wanted to make things available to the general public, and it seemed like he was included in this group. However, a majority decided that it should be closely held, and that is where things are at now. I know that Tyson also spoke with them and I’m sure others have come forward with their concerns.
I suggested that they either 1) create a new report that gives fewer details while providing the information that the general public would need or 2) redact the information that could compromise anonymity (which is what I would prefer).
My take on it is that there is really no harm in a redacted version. It would help give more information to the abused about what happened to their peers and the severity of the abuse that others suffered. It would allow people that weren’t interviewed or declined to be interviewed to read what happened. There are a lot of people in this camp, dozens of people could not be contacted or declined to be interviewed, I know some of them personally. And finally it would give the community a chance to understand what took place. He had neighbors and friends and colleagues that won’t be able to access this report that probably want to know what he did so they can start the process of reconciling the person they thought he was against the person he truly was.
Is there a perception that there is protection of leadership in the church?
Are their perceptions of what is going on correct? My guess is pretty accurate. They fully understand that the names of the victims should be redacted if that was requested. But the process seems less than transparent. Could it be that there is an effort to protect the leadership that appeared to make light of Weiss’s actions? Isn’t that what usually happens?
According to the article by KAKE:
Warren and Stuart say there’s more to the story, starting with the fact that the pair distinctly remembers abuse allegations from 2012, which resulted in Weiss finally being let go. Warren says he tried to ask the owner of FFM about it.
…”She said, ‘All that is in the summary report is available at the church. If you call Brian Robert or one of the two pastors, they will give you an opportunity to read it,” said Warren. “That’s not a ‘Nothing happened,’ right? That is a ‘something happened, and it’s in the report.’ So that was 2012.”
Stuart says Weiss went on to work at another church, though not as a youth pastor, and was soon let go after information came out about his time at Eastminster.
Warren says he’s concerned the church knew about it, played a part in making sure other people didn’t know about it, and may be doing that again.
There are 200 pages in the report, of which only a 6-page summary is available.
The church is trying to make amends by reimbursing the counseling costs for those affected and allowing victims to read the six-page summary of the investigation, Warren says is 200 pages total, but they have to come back to Wichita to read it. Stuart lives in Dallas and Warren lives in Kansas City.
“What about the people that live in Michigan and Washington and Boston and all the other places around the country that were probably impacted by this?” Warren asked.
The church says appointments can be made to read the summary after a June 22nd Repentance, Lament and Healing service planned for those affected.
Some other concerns as emphasized in the KAKE article.
- FFM, the group that did the investigation, is owned by Randy Coffman, a current parishioner at the church.
- Only the victims of abuse can see the summary. What about former and present concerned parishioners?
Tyson Stuart summed up the questions victims and their advocates would have.
“That’s where the burden of accountability lies. When did they know? What did they know? When could it have stopped? Why did it have to get as bad as it did?” said Stuart.
Finally.
- Tyson and I spoke yesterday. He is interested in seeing the statute of limitations abolished. He had not understood that he was abused until a few years after the SOL had passed. I shared with him that the average age for people coming forward about their childhood abuse is 52. I pray he is successful in his efforts.
- I suggest that FFM and Eastminster consult GRACE, the leading expert in investigation of abuse in the evangelical church. They provide the entire investigation to the church and recommend that the entire document be shared with all who ask. Here is an example of one of these reports which was posted online. Can the reader see how this type of openess would go a long way to decrease mistrust by victims?
Hi Dee, thanks for the time and effort you are putting into the tragedies that unfolded at Eastminster of the course of decades. Without people like you there would be no light on things like this, so again, thank you.
I do want to clarify a couple of things from the KAKE article, and I will work to help clear it up with the news channel as well:
1) The name of the investigating organization is “Fact Finding Ministry”
2) Randy Coffman is evidently in their employee but is not the owner of the organization
3) Randy did confirm to me prior to our interview that she is, in fact, a current paritioner at the church, and that it was an awkward situation for her to be in
4) She also indicate that the church had approached her about handling the work
5) This is important because the church has said multiple times that they hired a third-party organization to handle the investigation. I suppose that is true on paper, but more nuanced when you look into things, and they clearly knew she was a part of the church before having her investigate
6) I believe the report is about 100 pages, but the length of it hasn’t been verified
7) Nobody will be able to read the full report, we will only have access to what has been referred to as the Summary Report which is 6 pages
Finally, I thank you for the kind words. Tyson and I have been good friends for over 30 years, and I am deeply proud of the courage he has shown in bringing this to light. I am in no way the face of this; I’m just a guy who wants to support his friend, help give a voice to those who can’t or won’t be heard, and compel the church to do the right thing. So thanks again for your help in getting us closer to those goals.
Andy W(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee, what you have been doing all these years on behalf of survivors is so appreciated. Just saying “thank you” doesn’t seem adequate enough.
Will you ever do a story about congregants preying on fellow congregants? That’s what happened to me, in my mid-30s. He wasn’t a pastor, elder or on church council – but a lot of it still resonates. Lack of accountability, being forced to forgive, a feeling like the institution matters more than you do.
Again, keep on fighting the good fight!! Thanks again.
Sunlight Disinfectant(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
> Nobody will be able to read the full report, we will only have access to what has been referred to as the Summary Report which is 6 pages
This is a decision of the current Session of Elders of Eastminster PC. Presumably the composition (and views on this subject) of the Session could change as there is turnover in that body.
I wonder whether the by-laws give the congregation the power to order the Session to release the document.
—
One can understand the reluctance of the Session to shine light on the terrible failures of past leadership. Understandable, but arguably not “biblical” (there’s that word, again — what does it mean?).
Public confession of the sins of the past is a standard element of biblical repentance. It’s a bit disheartening to see this resisted by ministers of the Gospel.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Did you see the GRACE report at the e nd of the post? I put that there so folks can see what full transparency looks like.
As for investigations, all advocates will say that there is a need for “a thrid-party independent investigation.” That means by people outside of the church by groups that have NO associations with the church. Whenever there is a tie in to the church, there will always be lingering doubts about the findins.
Thank yuo for clarifying the details from the KAKE report!
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I am always pen to writing about abuse of any sort. I have yet to approached to do such a story. I am so sorry for what happened to you. Please let me know if you wish to share the story.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Samuel Conner,
I was told by FFM a “select” few of the Elders can read the full report. I understood I could read it when I agreed to be interviewed but I’m not able to now.
Julie Shaw(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
What about the denomination? Does the Presbyterian overhead, higher-ups, who over see the churches, do they have anything to say? What do they do to stop this? It would be interesting if even a fellow Presbyterian, like Alistair Begg, would speak out and man-to-man, or pastor-to-pastor, would correct each other. No wonder so many churches are out there that are non-denominational. Sounds like a waste of money.
JJallday(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Samuel Conner,
“Understandable, but arguably not “biblical” (there’s that word, again — what does it mean?)”
+++++++++++++
indeed. whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
I consult the concept of ethical instead. and treating people the way I want to be treated. and the individual over the institution. I reckon that’s how Jesus did things.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Again, the sexual abuse of minors is a FELONY in all 50 states.
Get the word out to go to LAW ENFORCEMENT immediately! if your child is molested at a church environment, or church sponsored activities.
Do not be afraid of besmirching some pie-in-the-sky fiction that this stuff is not supposed to happen in church environments.
And those in the churches who try to cover it up need to be held accountable.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
JJallday,
Mr Begg was ordained a Baptist minister but he has Reformed views. I don’t know if that has changed over the years and I think he is retiring from the ministry sometime this month.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think it’s a safe bet that all of the people involved in these matters—victims, perps, and congregants—prayed vigorously for relief and salvation, before, during, and after these events. As instructed by the Gospel, as a bulwark against Satan (who, very oddly, is still permitted access to each of us).
So many prayers unanswered! So many souls lost in silence.
I love Jesus, but heretically so, eyes wide open as the Spirit requires.
Where is Jesus in all this?
On this blog, yes!
I hold him accountable.
Jesus are you listening?
You can do better.
We can do better.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
i totally appreciate your honesty.
cynical = realistic; heretical = not afraid of being honest
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
I have similar questions — the orthodox confession that Jesus is currently ruling at the right hand of the Father sometimes seems to be belied by visible events on earth.
This intersects with the recent talk by Scott McKnight about “deconstruction” — he mentioned that one of the things that moves people to leave church is if they don’t find much evidence of Jesus there.
—
There are places in the Psalms where the author asks of YHWH, “where are you?” Perhaps we are in a similar situation today.
Trying to process this over a period of years and even decades, I have come to some tentative hypotheses that help me to make sense of what I see, without giving up on the Jesus Story entirely.
Jesus said that after his departure he would continue to be present among the disciples through the Holy Spirit. Our theology of this tends to locate the Spirit within individuals, and the “criterion” for the presence of the Spirit is something that we think is widely fulfilled, so that the Spirit ought to be pervasively present in the churches. This is hard to reconcile with the evidence that the churches are not doing well.
Contra the consensus theology, I suspect that the primary “location” of the spirit is among groups of believers as opposed to within individual believers. The quality of interpersonal relationships among the members of the group influences the degree to which the Spirit is present and working. “Love one another as I have loved you” precedes “after I depart I will send another counselor”
Thus, the loveless church at Ephesus is warned by Paul to not “grieve the Spirit” and is warned by the writer of Revelation that it is in danger of removal of its lamp-stand.
Perhaps this is a biblical precedent for what we are seeing in our day.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
on another bad-boy pastor/church front:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnW2NgeIKKA
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This.
Human consciousness is a relational, collective phenomenon that masquerades as individualistic, especially in modern Western society.
Human consciousness evolves. God evolves within consciousness as a body of ideas related to divinity and the nature of reality. Jesus is the name for a particular set of evolving God ideas which pertain to love, forgiveness, and transformation. Thus we are a kind of temple of god when we collectively host and nurture these ideas.
This raises the specter of multiple versions of god and Jesus evolving as something like species and sub-species. The Quaker version of Jesus has evolved to be substantially (but not totally) different from the Catholic version, and so on to thousands of such evolving variants. Unfortunately this means that a kind of “bad Jesus” can also evolve in some conditions. Such is evolution. Reality itself is polytheistic.
Finally, anything that exhibits evolution can be broadly considered as living.
God is a form of life which inhabits our collective consciousness.
Jesus is alive, right now, amidst those who host his living set of memes / ideas.
“Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:20
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Scripture speaks about limiting activity of the Spirit in our midst when we grieve or quench the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Then this is a critical bit of information about exactly where and when we lose our way with God.
What does it mean to grieve the Holy Spirit?
What does it mean to quench the Holy Spirit?
How is it that something I do when under spiritual attack quenches the love of God for me, or invoke his grief rather than his patience?
Is the apparent absence of the Holy Spirit in moments of abuse due to excessive grieving and quenching?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Samuel Conner,
I think that Romans 8 (and other texts)) indicates that the Holy Spirit dwells in individual believers and that their shared experiences of this in Christ facilitates fellowship and worship when they come together.
As for Sandy’s questions, I think the Westminster Confession of Faith succinctly explains the position of believers/saints/pilgrims as we head homeward.
“ WCF CHAPTER 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints
1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.”
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Does this explain why children and adults who are suffering from abuse, real time and in the aftermath, seem to so rarely experience “some measure of graces and comfort”?
If I fail to experience such graces and comforts amidst life’s cruel twists, does that mean Satan has possessed me, or I am overly corrupt, and I have incurred God’s displeasure? If I am a child?
I don’t think so.
Where is the love of god in these cruel words?
This is plainly blaming the victim.
I reject these beliefs.
Give me Quakers any day.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
like any refugee from a war zone or concentration camp survivor, you are in hair-trigger Survival Mode, always afraid you’ll find yourself back there.
“Those of us who found it takes a lot longer to go home than get back to The World.”
— David Drake, Vietnam Vet (in this context, “The World” means “Anyplace that isn’t Vietnam”)
When all you have is a Holy Hammer, everything looks like a Demon. Plus…
“If at first you don’t succeed, GET A BIGGER HAMMER.”
— Army proverb
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sexual assault victims getting the holy hammer is a real turn-off for me, personally.
What about the Holy Hand Grenades?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
PS
The Westminster Confession of Faith is Calvinism on stilts.
How does that square with the forms of Calvinism reviled on this blog?
(Pretty well, I think.)
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
That Westminster Confession passage is about something different, and deceivingly worded (they have no belief in the decree of God or election), and not an authority according to most people anyway.
Instead of just quoting by itself please additionally say to us whether you believe it because otherwise we might think you condone this yourself.
Sandy,
No, it would apply against the superapostles themselves.
If you were a Bible teacher, pastor, prelate, elder, etc and you strongarmed and lorded it, and quenched the gift in the other smaller than you (the orphan and widow) then you would be grieving the Spirit and those who pride on making this their life’s work are blaspheming Holy Spirit.
That is so well observed!
Father W Schmidt (also a South East Asian linguistic expert incidentally) pointed out this phenomenon throughout history.
Samuel Conner,
He has to be present in individuals. But because “man is the bearer of mankind” (as Hermann Cohen – a dazzling Old Testament commentator said) and because the OT constantly says be on the lookout for someone among you to give to, the rest of what you say gains added significance.
Pentecost (which mostly gets presented as a hierarchical occasion) was a sort of official birthday or epiphany whereas coming down the mountain of Ascension to spend time praying for everybody was their real first filling. And the inbreathing / indwelling was prior to Ascension. (The NT demonstrates both two and one stage initiations, neither of which per se involves speaking in tongues.)
The Bible says what it is saying by not saying it is saying what it is not saying, and not saying that it is not saying what it is saying. Please don’t stop believing in the fruits.
Samuel Conner,
ref your paragraphs “Jesus said that after His … ” to ” … send another counsellor”” (highlighter glitch)
The word often rendered Comforter. The Comforter is not a spittle-ridden, once fluffy dinosaur.
Hermann Cohen, a dazzling Old Testament commentator, pointed out that Holy Spirit will be seen in individuals who freely bear the fruit of giving to each other.
The masquerading has been twofold: in place of individuals confident in God’s specific help and responsible for their relationships we have been smudged into the lackadaisical lumpen as per the “papal” Westminster Confession diktat, and to disguise that we now appear to have the trendy “My First Fog Machine Religion”, and the latest counterreaction is to herd us back to the lackadaisical Lumpendiktat (retaining the worn out fog machine in more senses than one).
When civil authority, who are busy, needed our intercessions, our spiritual betters instead of teaching us how (honouring our gift), just told them if they went through their hoops they’d be alright in the sky (Daniel 9: 3-21 refer). Therefore don’t wait for official permission from religion bosses to pray for everybody and everything, always (that’s even in Paul).
The larger portion of Jewish people are looking for a team as described in Proverbs 21: 10-31 (which I keep mentioning which is categorically not about wives), the feedings of the thousands (which is not mainly about evangelisation), the trading amongst ourselves in the talents to lay down in each others’ souls the precious “mettle” that will get them through harder times (contingency).
Submit meant do like the gears on an old fashioned car: simply talk to each other; the Roman Empire was very very cold. I want to continue this on this week’s “free for all” page.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
Parts of this (if we detach them) may be sort-of almost “true” in a sense. We don’t know how long some wouldbe strongarmers may be in purgatory (as we’ll still be finite, time will seem slower the other side). But according to Scripture, those who assiduously place themselves in the category of unforgivable conduct can be lost. The role of others than God in causation in this mustn’t be ruled out.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think I am starting to get it!
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve often thought that there is a lack of awareness/acknowledgement of original sin here.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I agree that the WCF isn’t an authority to most people, more’s the pity. Your analysis of it is otherwise “off the wall”.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
It may not be an authority because it’s not clear enough about fruits and gifts. To begin with, it was written when Reformed society was a flatter pyramid (the bigger peril of condemnation will fall to those in greater power over others).
And, in God’s hidden spiritual economy (the Household of God/Kingdom of Heaven) what will providentially pull all of us through in contingency will be the precious mettle we lay down in each others’ souls by our trading the talents with each other (our letter of commendation) (works of faith, that please God: convinced in our own minds, and not meddling).
God’s “internal market” depicted in Proverbs 21: 10-31 (which is about a woman entrepreneur who employs her adopted orphans and widows not as slaves – and is not about wives LOL), and God’s pyramid scheme are the only ones anyone should trust and the only ones that seemingly many christians won’t trust.
The election is the “cast iron” predestined part of the deal to those who buy in (and can continue buying in, Jn 3:16) without price, reasoning with the Lord. (And of course Holy Spirit, through good angels, by creating serendipity in relating, helped us to even enquire in the first place.)
I find that when I combine the words of Jesus, Paul, the whole Old Testament, James, etc, I get something clearer than those “Confessions” (but that’s just me). St Paul says if a note sounded is indistinct (a tune that is too much all over the place or if you can’t tell what order the notes should come in, and missing too much out) who shall respond and have any faith?
Don’t withhold the real due rations from fellow siblings, collect plenty extra for him who has none . . . These are the things that the Gospel really includes. Our food is to do His will by receiving confidence not to extract power from those around us.
Sorry I’m often blunt because the common convolutions in religion dismay me. But, by provoking discussions, more chance is created for unconvoluting. I can respect the WCF as an attempt and a document, but as my slogan box it falls short – it confuses me before it (consciously) confuses anyone else.
I like to pray the Glory Be, because God will be glorified by the works of mercy and faith described. Those who expect to know the Messiah know that they will see Holy Spirit in individuals making up a team with worthwhile values for them to join (and not be smudged into without trace of their selves).
Those who assiduously buy out by determining to dissolve others in some codependency system (scoffers and scorners, Ps 1 and Ps 26) are foreknown to be doomed insofar as the predestiny attaches to their assiduousness in it.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Honestly and sincerely, I would love to hear your views on how the Holy Spirit is “grieved” and “quenched” before, during, and after episodes of sexual and spiritual abuse in Gods Church. A few like Cindy taste justice years later, but for the majority the Spirit is silent, as if offended by the victims shame.
Why?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
Sadly there is a subset among the New Reformed who condemn the Noble Bereans for daring to believe their own then Old Testament. A scribe (a profession notorious for their attitude of imposing a letter which killeth) who enters the Kingdom of Heaven is like a householder who brings out of his storeroom things both old and new (becomes the hero in my favourite parable – about the shortest).
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is the theological equivalent of “standing on the shoulders of giants “ from where you can view Mr Dawkins swimming aimlessly around in his delusional meme pool. (Pun intended).
For answers to your other questions I can recommend TheWeeFlea.com written by a man who has interacted with Mr D and other existential questions.
Regards
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
In the oppressors especially so (subject matter of thread) and presumably that is what you meant? (Sucking the life out of the vulnerable got into their body language.) My (untampered with) Old Testament long since said listen to the cry of the wronged weak, within God’s Household first.
The Holy Spirit-filled Calvinist Methodist, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, must have had catechesis that taught him how to somehow read Bible meanings INTO the WCF.
The excellent Calvinist Arminius, whose opponent was Gomarus, did not mandate Archbishop Laud to cruelty.
(In my young day we, including Roman Catholics, spoke a lot about blessed assurance and particular redemption and agnostics admired us for it.)
In the Household of God, the worse oppressors are the last to notice that their sufferings (which is how they construe justified criticism) are allowed by God for their good (but the lives of a few of them do break down).
By retrieving paradigms lost, we’ll add to each other’s frame of ideas and knowledge.
We can’t pull down master’s house with master’s tools = by Beelzebul casting out Beelzebul.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This has nothing to do with my questions, and you are making a joke of the issue.
Once more, in an increasingly frustrated voice, I ask you or any one:
Why?
Someone?
Anyone?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
Awaiting how you specifically address the detail in Sandy’s at 3:17 a.m – which he has asked before.
For some Christians, all the meanings in all of inerrant Holy Scripture is authority.
I and others have tried to shake you out of your ambiguity. IMO it’s beginning to look aggravating on events that don’t evoke your concern.
Does Robertson condone child molestation by authority (our host’s subject of thread) AND on what exact page of his site does he do so?
Dawkins noted it is part of the contingent world and, following his autobiography or even before it, was perhaps asked to act like an Establishment figure ON THAT PARTICULAR SUBJECT (vaguely imply almost normalisation).
Dawkins happens to have paradigm problems exactly like his schoolteachers did. Did they teach him well? Where did yours come from?
Sandy,
I have offered my own take this morning, as well on Saturday at 6:41 p.m, but LLS has to step up on this one so we can compare.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I know that words can’t do justice to the experiences of abuse survivors. Having said that, this is similar to my own (imperfect) understanding. It is the abuser who is grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit in their own lives, which leads to a hardened heart and a seared conscience in themselves.
The actions of the abuser may cause the victim to not feel the love and comfort of God, but this does not change the fact of God’s love for the victim or make them at fault in any way for what has happened.
Those who have spiritual authority and abuse others are blaspheming God through their actions. Depending on one’s theological viewpoint, the abuser may either have fallen away from God, or showed that they never truly knew him in the first place.
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, that would be the two ways to look at it from a “theological viewpoint”. However, Scripture (rather than theology) points to only one viewpoint for those who truly know Christ.
“If anyone is in Christ [that is, grafted in, joined to Him by faith in Him as Savior], he is a new creature [reborn and renewed by the Holy Spirit]; the old things [the previous moral and spiritual condition] have passed away. Behold, new things have come [because spiritual awakening brings a new life].” (2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP)
“Put on the new man [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [Christlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth [living in a way that expresses to God your gratitude for your salvation].” (Ephesians 4:24 AMP)
IMO, “those who have spiritual authority and abuse others” were never ‘in Christ’, nor did they ever ‘put on the new man’ … as supported by Scripture. Their “ministries” have been a pretense.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My question remains: Why are the actions of the abuser more powerful than the love of God in almost any case I have encountered?
Are we saying that 1) the girl is praying hard, 2) God is trying hard, but 3) the actions of the abuser prevail over the will of both girl and God, even when the abuser has long left the scene? This sells God short, doesn’t it?
Why is it that in every one of these cases on TWW, comfort is coming from secular style investigative justice rather than anything like “biblical justice”?
Do the prayers of abused children ever get answered in real time? Cindy Clemishire says she explicitly felt the presence of God once when her attacker relented at the last minute. But she doesn’t say if that ever happened again in the 100+ times (as I recall) she was abused. Apparently not.
Why?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
“Why is it that in every one of these cases on TWW, comfort is coming from secular style investigative justice rather than anything like “biblical justice”?”
++++++++++++++++++
“biblical justice” is simply various systems of procedures that are based on magic rather than anything fair or reasonable or just.
but then i no longer recognize biblical anything, really.
it’s sort of like when Michael Scott (on The Office) declares bankruptcy by declaring “I declare bankruptcy” loudly so everyone could hear it.
all christians so is declare biblical by declaring “…biblical…”.
there. it’s biblical because they said so. while others are declaring contradictory things if not the sheer opposite “…biblical…”.
ridiculous. i reckon God thinks it’s ridiculous, too.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Because agnostics of goodwill are and always shall be, God’s exceeding good gift to us, to each other, and to the world – without the permission of the New Reformed
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christie24,
By lording it in any form, they are quenching Holy Spirit in others’ lives. Throwing away their letter of commendation.
P.s the term “God” used as name is a job title (like “Cook” in the great houses, who was honoured to be called that affectionately by her master’s children), hence it recurs in different religions / concepts / customs.
Thus the god of Sandy’s old padres and of Dawkins’ teachers (who were vicars not good enough for parish service), who demands things be extracted from children, is a different god from mine or yours. The good angels only serve the latter. The bad padres are unable to pray effectively. Life under their thumb is at least as bad as anywhere, for their twisting of sacred concepts.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
No, IT doesn’t sell God short. Self appointed guardians of conventional religion deny contingency, which is why their eschatology and pneumatology (and ecclesiology) (and thereby Christology, soteriology and Biblical hermeneutic / exegesis) are up the spout. THEY not only sell (my) God short, they declare not only Him but very truth utterly outlawed, and they sell you extremely short indeed.
Always look who you are getting an idea from so that you can weigh up that source as you go. This element diverted blame onto “the bible” but in this instance the blame is with them, so they are two points down for starters.
They have entered into the crimes moral and otherwise, of the highhanded (the scorners described in Ps 1 and Ps 26), and we are utterly exonerated from accepting their Weltanschauung.
They don’t read the (untampered with) Bible lest it deflate their hegemonist mutant religion. They want to turn you from hero to absolute zero in their net zero sum (burying your talents in their sand).
One can see, by putting in time and effort, which secular philosophy (in a spirit of agnosticism of goodwill) supports any sense of reality (always the complex kinds). But the New Reformed bosses, with non-protestant lookalikes, snobbishly refuse tools for thought (thereby setting a bad endorsement).
I think we must actually invent our own kind of “Pseudo-Christianity” with a fresh template improving or correcting all of those matters in the direction of truthful interpretation.
“Who promised you a rose garden” (and one of the main things that reminds me of is the prickles).
There are only three or four kinds of answers:
LLS might admit they only mentioned the WCF etc at random with little, no, or unclear connection to the topic (a relatively benign excuse for their hurtfulness).
Some people might mistake the baby for the bathwater.
Some people struggle to produce pieces of answer from the totality of Scripture meanings ESPECIALLY those that get contradicted by religion “authorities”. Pieces that have NEVER been expressed before.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
There is also the yet more terrible hypothesis that they in turn were sold a pup (a k a bill of goods). As youngsters, they’d have been in a degree of goodwill towards what they heard of Jesus.
Evangelists (perhaps struggling with insufficient wisdom on how to get free from codependency in their family or denomination) have sometimes offered to wouldbe near-innocents (perhaps also struggling to get free from codependency in their own family) a less than minimum. Only for catechists and disciplers (already deformed by the same continuing system) to immediately tell the newcomers, that’s more than the maximum anyway. Stunting and starving those God called as their peers.
(The NT isn’t clear how long evangelists spent with people. At any rate I think they were shown a more astute focus in Old Testament than we usually get given nowadays.)
One day the good angels will see what is wheat and what is tares, not only around each of us, but even within the souls of some people.
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. I Cor 3:15
And others as you have pointed out (those told “Depart from Me”) won’t be. Those who went so far in violating . . . and even some who were ever so “squeaky” . . . What were they doing to their own consciences?
Some devils in a story recruited seven more devils even more evil than themselves. Didn’t Lucifer drag down a third of heaven? There are sorcerers (illusionists) and there are sorcerers’ apprentices, who learn and teach ever so “well”.
But they could always have taken the course of believing agnostics (baggage sceptics). Real Scriptures say bear one another’s burdens and refuse being made to carry organisational baggage (nominally an offence under Roman military law).
This I think is what “Sinners in the hands of an angry God” and the WCF are REALLY about. Jesus took on Himself the punishment that the sin system itself inflicts on those in its grip (the real penal substitution).
Genuine Old Testament believers knew that God had abolished the sacrifices from the start (they were a hangover from the symbolic ban on feuds), because they were not in themselves effective. He is saying, “IF you do this, remember that expiation is meant to led to atonement and that atonement will come from Me”. Thus, if you read Hebrews and Paul we see the startling insight that the very God (Jesus saying I and the Father are One) is saying I shall go and take this sin system on Myself by going in the midst of it. That those who will be in Me will be ransomed / walk free because I’m sending a Comforter at Ascension.
When we promulgate this rebalanced and clearer, better distinguished version of Christianity our lives will continue to not be easy.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
Oh and (as it just so happens) I hold to Plenary Verbal Inspiration as well.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
It is truly wonderful that you were born again, and it stuck.
But for most victims, we have their testimony that “the old things” do not “pass away.”
Instead it is much like HUG points out: “like any refugee from a war zone or concentration camp survivor, you are in hair-trigger Survival Mode, always afraid you’ll find yourself back there.”
The victim fails “to find a new life.”
I have known of many victims who took their own life.
As I have discussed elsewhere, the Holy Spirit seems perpetually “quenched” before, during, and after episodes of abuse—despite prayer, prayer, and more prayer. A few lucky ones are born again. Most are not (I remain hungry and open to evidence to the contrary.)
Why?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
“Why?”
+++++++++
i wonder about these things, too. Jesus had parables about how the kingdom of God grows materializes slowly over time.
whatever the kingdom of God is, i reckon it’s happenin’ in the hereafter. (peace & all that)
i think it grows on earth exponentially slower than the professionals advertise. i feel like i was sold a bill of goods in some respects.
which isn’t God’s fault.
i guess this didn’t answer much, since we still need to ponder why it grows so slowly.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My own view is that we are seeing the evolution of God, similar to biological evolution.
This is called process theology.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
interesting. can you go into more detail about “God”?
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I wish you could be clearer in your responses, such as here.
You seem to mean (but please chime in) that the reason the victims do not experience the love of God before, during, and after their abuse is … original sin? In a baptized, innocent, prayerful child?
Say more.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I shared some thoughts on this earlier in this same thread in response to Samuel Connor.
Google “process theology” by Alfred North Whitehead.
Although I am not so familiar with his writings, the basic idea rings true to me.
We can observe that all things evolve, an idea called universal evolution.
Language in particular shows lots of evidence of quasi Darwinian evolution.
It is interesting that Jesus is identified as “the word of God” and the Logos.
This seems to indicate that God is a body of thoughts, words, ideas, logics, and memes.
God himself is a “Word.”
I think the constant identification of the Bible as the Word of God is a grotesque error, sometimes called bibliolatry.
We can clearly observe this evolution everywhere the idea of God is invoked.
Jesus of Nazareth is clearly an evolved and transformed version of Yahweh. The further evolution of Jesus of Calvin is similar but vastly different than the Jesus of the Quakers.
This is not reductive or dismissive.
The universe itself seems to be the result of some kind of logos or a set of laws or organizing principles.
Latest scientific thinking is that the organizing principles of the universe are not constant.
Perhaps they are blooming like a rose.
Perhaps the word can become flesh and dwell among us.
Perhaps the word is greater than any one of us and survives death.
Food for thought!
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
super interesting. now, how about if time is not linear?
another question: are there any aspects of God that are constant?
another thought: perhaps God is active amongst us insofar as what & how we allow God to be.
as humans evolve (survival of the fittest ethics, societal norms, & character traits), God’s interaction and active on earth evolves.
if humans are God’s hands and feet (agents)…
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
1 – Time is one of the forms of condensed light; another of them being matter (which has extension in space). We’ll still be finite when we get to “the other side”. Newton understood far more about “motion” than we usually get told.
2 – Yes because He is not the same as “stuff”. He honours the individuality He gave to everything.
4 – The principles in history have remained, remain and shall remain the same (despite what the postmils and pretribs claim) – but circumstances and means vary.
3 and 5 – Observers will see Holy Spirit in us before they see Jesus or the Father. But abusive clergy are “blind guides” – in their profession under false pretences.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)