No Beth Allison Barr? Must have been an oversight, right? Hmmmm…

Satin here off topic to accuse a couple musical “brethren”
First there’s Sean — accused of abuses by many witnesses—- what’s his Christ-like response?
“The spirit of offense is entangling an entire generation in a perpetual cycle where victimhood becomes the highest virtue.”
Next we have some news boys, whose former mate stands accused by many witnesses of sex abuse. What does their liar say?
“While we are aware of unsubstantiated aspersion cast via internet towards Mr. Tait and Newsboys by one particular individual, because your questions revolve around the alleged behavior and actions of Mr. Tait, it would be inappropriate for Newsboys to speculate or comment.”
Oh, the aspersions!!

Biblical™ counselling always makes me think of Job’s comforters. These guys had a lot to say to Job, and you can’t get more biblical than having your words recorded in Scripture. But this didn’t work out so well, since in the end God rebuked them for not speaking what was right, & it was Job who had to intercede on their behalf.

I can’t imagine anything less trauma-informed than some of the material I’ve read. I came away with the impression that even if I can prove I didn’t cause a traumatic experience, I can still be to blame for my sinful response (e.g. fear means I may not be trusting God, having my guard up means I am failing to love my brother whom I have seen, so I may not even know God). Helpful!

The ‘salt in wounds’ approach is bad enough, but I think the way it teaches you to disregard your own judgment & intuition is even worse, since ‘the heart’ is always ‘deceitful and wicked’. IMO this makes it especially dangerous for women and vulnerable people, who may be targeted by predatory leaders in a subtle way without obvious warning signs.

It’s nice of them to think of the planter™ wives (aka unpaid indentured servants who are not even allowed the dignity of being called ‘women in ministry’ alongside their husbands). I would imagine they can’t afford the risk that the women might seek help elsewhere, since a professional counsellor might locate the source of the problem outside of the woman’s heart (e.g. in her toxic marriage or religious environment).

In FL, you cannot call yourself a counselor unless you are officially licensed. I wonder if their advertising violates any state laws.

The SBC seminaries slide from “pastoral counseling” to “Biblical Counseling – How it Happened

Before the “conservative resurgence” in the SBC, seminaries taught “pastoral counseling” with some of the greats Wayne Oates, Wade Rowatt, and others. Through Clinical Pastoral Education we were trained on how to serve parishioners both spiritually and psychologically. After the takeover of the SBC seminaries, this course of study was considered “liberal”

At this point, seminary counseling training for a time was headed towards seeking a state license as a therapist. While not as theologically based, it was still a meaningful direction as the education would lead to a state license to suggest some level of competency. Over time, this too was considered liberal.

The current state is well explained from this 2007 article from The Christian Century:
https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2007-01/biblical-therapy

Sad . . .

Perhaps it’s a good sign that SBC plans to counsel their women. Could it be that the wimmenfolk are starting to rise up in opposition about their treatment under New Calvinist overlords? Perhaps the dudebros are getting some pushback in their local churches and need denominational enforcement to get their women to sit down, shut up, and submit.

Luckyforward:
On 9/11 I was at a retreat center outside Atlanta as a licensed psychotherapist conducting a Lifeway sponsored week long retreat for troubled ministers and their wives.At our first morning break we saw the airplane hit the first tower. Between the personal pain the couples brought and our national tragedy, it was a painful journey we shared that week.

Today I wouldn’t be allowed to talk with anyone at the Convention because even though I am licensed as a therapist in Tennessee and Kentucky, I am not a “Biblical Counselor.”

How far the SBC has fallen . . .

It has fallen a long ways. When the SBC Convention meets soon the main topic is holding women back.

Christie24: a professional counsellor might locate the source of the problem outside of the woman’s heart (e.g. in her toxic marriage or religious environment).

IMO, there is a multitude of women in New Calvinism (SBC’s current default theology) who have toxic marriages because they are in a toxic religious environment. I can take you to NeoCal churches in my area where you can visibly see oppression on the countenance of female believers. “Sit down, shut up, submit … sit down, shut up, submit” gets old after awhile.

Luckyforward: Before the “conservative resurgence” in the SBC, seminaries taught “pastoral counseling” … we were trained on how to serve parishioners both spiritually and psychologically

Al Mohler ran off all those professors at Southern Seminary when he assumed the presidency there … other SBC seminaries followed.

dee: Tom Rubino:
In FL, you cannot call yourself a counselor unless you are officially licensed. I wonder if their advertising violates any state laws.

Some of these folks are licensed counselors. They choose to practice the ACBC style. That is why it’s dangerous.

Of course they would license ACBC counselors.
The CHRISTIAN State of Florida, remember.

Max: Perhaps the dudebros are getting some pushback in their local churches and need denominational enforcement to get their women to sit down, shut up, and submit.

The days of women sitting down and shutting up are over.
Trying to get toothpaste back into the tube (so to speak) is a fool’s errand.
If the dudebros haven’t caught on to this, they deserve to go extinct.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

This may be a bit unfair. While I have little sympathy with the ideology of the current chief executive of the state of Florida, it looks to me like the state requirements for counseling licensure are not shabby:

https://floridasmentalhealthprofessions.gov/licensed-mental-health-counselor/

In particular, “completed two years and 1,500 hours of supervised clinical experience,”

A serious weakness, IMO, of ACBC is the very brief period of supervised counseling, per this link,

https://biblicalcounseling.com/training/certification/phase-3-supervision/

only 50 hours.

Skill in counseling is not only “training in relevant counseling theory and practice”, it’s also “case wisdom”, which (barring supernatural endowment of wisdom) is only acquired with prolonged experience.

> When something is free, one should ask why.

Any chance of getting a copy of any “term sheet” that prospective counselees would be required to sign as a condition of receiving zero-cost counseling?

IIRC, TWW has reported on certain churches that offer no-cost counseling, but with worrisome strings attached.

Samuel Conner: When something is free, one should ask why.

Any chance of getting a copy of any “term sheet” that prospective counselees would be required to sign as a condition of receiving zero-cost counseling?

IIRC, TWW has reported on certain churches that offer no-cost counseling, but with worrisome strings attached.

Excellent question, SC. Do they ask the pastors’ wives about their medical history? Mental health history? Current or previous medications? These are standard intake questions. Are the intake forms being secured per HIPAA laws?

This is reason enough to proceed with utmost caution. Conversely, if they are not using intake forms, asking medical history, etc., then they are just talking about life in general. No harm there unless they “prescribe” some form of treatment or follow-up.

All I know is that if I were legal counsel to the SBC, I would advise against this idea.

Christie24: It’s amazing how different someone’s public persona can be from how they act at home.

It’s common for PKs (preacher-kids) to be bad actors at church … they experience Daddy’s hypocrisy at home.

Muff Potter: The days of women sitting down and shutting up are over.
Trying to get toothpaste back into the tube (so to speak) is a fool’s errand.
If the dudebros haven’t caught on to this, they deserve to go extinct.

A primary reason why the New Calvinist movement will run out of steam soon. Attempting to put women into religious bondage at this point in history is a futile endeavor.

Christie24: It’s amazing how different someone’s public persona can be from how they act at home. I hope you are in a safer place now.

I am more or less safe for now, thank you. Just wanting for the post-separation abuse and legal proceedings to reach some kind of conclusion. It’s becoming harder and harder not to say anything. But for my own sake, I have to be careful. My abuser is studying law now, despite having an expensive theology degrees I helped pay for. He is doing this to scare me, and so he can claim he has no income with which to repay the large amount of money he stole from me. And that’s only the (vague) tip of the iceberg.

He under no circumstances wanted a divorce. Women trying to separate from men who express dogmatic views about marriage are right to be scared. But if there isn’t recent physical abuse, it is hard to get a restraining order, especially if jurisdiction issues are in play.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I strongly suspect that this “beauty of complimentary” stuff a last ditch effort to cling to the white male superiority, mastery, and control of other humans.

And you end up with a Gospel According to the Andrew Tate Manosphere.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
Headless Unicorn Guy,

As I read Dee’s post and the comments, I startedthinking………..
“The SBC’S ACBC-certified women counselors = Judas sheep!!!”

For those unfamiliar with the term, “Judas Goat” or “Black Sheep” is an animal used in Slaughterhouses to lead the sheep in for slaughter. Since either is similar to the sheep, the sheep will follow the Judas Goat/Black Sheep willingly down the chutes to the captive-bolt guns and powered throat-slitters. And since the Judas Goat/Black Sheep is visibly different from the sheep being slaughtered, the slaughterhouse can easily separate them from the flock they led in for reuse with the next. Auschwitz did something similar with their “Potemkin village” facade at the unloading railhead.

Jeffrey Chalmers: two “camps” … Conservative/traditional and “lib”

There a lot of “twos” in Scripture.

Two trees in the garden … two roads to walk, narrow & broad … two choices, life or death … two eternal destinies, etc.

“A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but a fool’s heart directs him toward the left.” (Ecclesiastes 10:2)

Ian Docker: but at least Jobs friends expressed genuine empathy for his obvious plight and sat quietly with him for a week providing a ministry of presence

Agreed. What they did in sitting with Job was an expression of true empathy & friendship. It was only what they said that was wrong. Arguably they were doing their best considering available resources circa 2000BC. Today’s biblical counsellors have access to all of Scripture, the insights of modern psychology, and much more.

In a world that seems full of frustration and bad news. Here is some good news.

https://www.wsaw.com/2025/06/03/former-wisconsin-rapids-youth-pastor-sentenced-10-years-prison-child-sex-crimes/

This was in my hometown. In one of my first posts on this forum, I wrote about an experience a high school friend went through that was similar to that of Cindy Clemishire. At the time, in the late 80s, we were too young and dumb to penetrate the wall of silence put up by the local churches and community leaders who defended her attacker.

By the time the James Lane abuse came to light, enough of us refused to sit down and let it get swept under the rug again. It took over 20 years, but finally, Lane was held accountable.

Jeffrey Chalmers: Maybe a better stating of my frustration is: What does conservative/traditional vs “lib” really mean?

That’s a moving target in America … in both the nation and church. “Conservative” is now living on the edge of “liberal”. Scripture says “Everyone does what is ‘right’ in his own eyes” … but what was wrong is now right!

As the old Truth song says:

“What if we’ve fallen to the bottom of the well
Thinking we’ve risen to the top of a mountain
What if we’re knocking at the gates of Hell
Thinking we’re Heaven bound
What if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
When we should have been thinking of each other
What if we reach up and touch the ground
To find we’re living life upside down
Upside down”

Nancy2–YES! Unless you have lived in the culture that still laments the late wauh of noathun aggressun and reveres the noble Lost Cause, and sees manhood as equaling being in control of and superior to SOMEONE, ANYONE you just cannot “get” what this patriarchal uprising is all about.

It scares the living daylights out of me to realize just how many of those supposed to be running our country openly subscribe to white christian nationalism. I did not capitalize christian because it is so unChristian. They have already taken over so many of the churches.

And people fall for it over and over, believing it is the only alternative to simply accepting any and all sin and celebrating it. Nope, on one side may be legalism and on the other side may be license, but there IS STILL THE MIDDLE.

SBC males were content to hold the top jobs at church but let the ladies do all the work since 1846. Without the women it would not have made it to 1847. But now more men want those top jobs, and most no longer are willing to do it on a volunteer or “supply the pulpit” pittance basis, and it is a lucrative career.

And so, ever unsure of their manhood, the rallying cry of “What, me compete with girls?” is heard throughout the land.

And any woman with a lick of sense has walked away. Considering they have never been able to exist without female backers, pretty much dooming themselves to having to find new careers, lol.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I strongly suspect that this “beauty of complimentary” stuff a last ditch effort to cling to the white male superiority, mastery, and control of other humans. They think it’s ‘beautiful’ to to have power and dominance over other persons, so they have created a Jane Crow “gospel”.

What makes it even more absurd, is that it’s based solely on plumbing received at birth.

If anyone wants to Google “church counseling intake form” or “Biblical counseling application” from churches that offer Biblical counseling. These are interesting documents in terms of authority and confidentiality. I did not provide a link as I did not want to place TWW in a difficult situation.

Go Googling . . . it will tell you much.

Max: Plumbing doesn’t mean anything in the Kingdom of God.He will use whoever He wills for whatever He wills, unless the kingdom of men hinder His work by their rules and regulations.

Thank you for saying this, Max. I have been so discouraged and disillusioned in the past decade by what I have seen and experienced in the Church and the country at large – misogyny of the highest order. Character, decency, integrity, morals – none of those things matter if one has the right plumbing. If one has the right plumbing, those things are all irrelevant.

When I read the title of the article the first thought that came to me , I wonder who they are trying to keep these woman from hearing ? It sounds like manipulation. It makes me sick !

Sunlight Disinfectant,

In 2013, at our church pastor’s insistence and pressure over a period of several weeks, hubby and I attended a 3-day SBC church planter seminar in Louisville….. lectures and team projects, etc. I was glad I took a couple of books with me.
I was the only female on the team we were put with. The men were so rude and exclusive towards me that by 10:00 am on day two, I scooted my chair over against the wall and curled up with a Louis L’Amour novel.
(One church pastor on our team even had the audacity to move my plate and drink over to another place at lunch break as I pulled my chair out to sit down.)
This is the SBC.

Yikes re firearms in church: the last SBC church we visited, pre covid so been a while, had a notice in the bulletin that the staff needed to know who all carried to church so the ushers could seat them properly to avoid anyone (aka staff?) getting caught in the crossfire. To their credit they did say they also needed to hold a one night seminar for those that carried so they would only shoot responsibly if there was a need.

Noped it right out the door.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): This is the SBC.

What is it with some brands of religion that causes folks to abandon reason and common human decency?
It’s almost like Golding’s Lord of the Flies and Miller’s The Crucible
They are little different than any other authoritarian regime.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

Goodness me Nancy. Aware that there are numerous versions of the Bible, but not aware that some characters today who regard themselves as being ‘in Christ’ have reinterpretated and formed their own in house version to the extent that they feel justified in treating a person like that.
Women, skin colour, and social background, tolerated because of PC, but best kept at arms
length.

linda: so the ushers could seat them properly to avoid anyone (aka staff?) getting caught in the crossfire

Wow. As if there weren’t enough reasons already to be careful when attending a church. Not sure if they had any particular reason to be expecting a gunfight, but this is probably not the best way to make visitors feel at home.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): the church was split over COVID….. lots of bickering. Many refused to wear masks – certain their faith would protect them

The way the organized church responded to the Covid pandemic was the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen! The government wasn’t trying to tell them how to worship, they were trying to save their lives. The way it turned out, churches in many communities became super-spreaders of the virus. I know of pastors and deacons who died of the disease in the early days of the pandemic.

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veritas: Often these men seem completely normal around parishioners and unleash cruelty at home, or confine their more extreme opinions to private circles.

Successful Predators, Abusers, and Sociopaths are masters of self-camouflage.

“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
— some Rabbi from Tarsus

Max: I offer all SBC women who are experiencing treatment like this free Biblical counsel should this happen to you:

“Flee! Run for your lives; become like a bush in the desert” (Jeremiah 48:6)

Yes!! You know the phrase “the best things in life are free”? This is not one of them.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I guess their faith picks and chooses when to protect them.

Sounds like they’d still burn witches if they could.

Max,

Tie up the wounded in knots = shrink wrapping

Muff Potter: Sounds like they’d still burn witches if they could.

Remember PASTOR Greg Locke going all Tailgunner Joe McCarthy with his List of Witches who infiltrated his congregation? Intel he claimed was told him by a demon he was exorcizing?

(And if Greg Locke gets his intel from the lips of demons, does that make him a Warlocke?)

Muff Potter: Sounds like there are more and more Baptist men who are taking Paul with fewer and fewer grains of salt than in former times.

It might be that mainline Southern Baptists (non-Calvinists) are beginning to wake up and smell the NeoCals cooking … or perhaps SBC women are finally putting their foot down with their sorry complementarian husbands!