“Historian – a broad-gauge gossip.” Ambrose Bierce
What is gossip?
As we explore the meaning of words, we must create a new category: how the church uses the word, and today’s word is gossip. Here is an observation (to quote a deep-sixed pastor:) Churches with something to hide will often tell their unsuspecting members that they should not “gossip” about a “thing that will cause the church (read leaders) embarrassment.”
What is the definition of gossip from The Cambridge Dictionary?
conversation or reports about other people’s private lives that might be unkind, disapproving, or not true:
What does the Bible say?
While some translations do not use the actual word “gossip,” this basic concept is found throughout Scripture. The following uses the NIV translation(which does use it).
James 4:11
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[a] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
2 Coriinthians12:20
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
Leviticus 19:16
16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.
Proverbs 10:18
Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips and spreads slander is a fool.
Ephesians 4:29
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
What does AI at Google say?
I thought this might be fun to ask. It did a good job.
AI OverviewGossip is idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others. It often involves casual conversations or reports about individuals, frequently involving details that are not confirmed as true. Gossip can be considered unkind and can damage relationships.
Here’s a more detailed explanation:Idle talk:Gossip is characterized by its casual and unconstrained nature, often lacking a clear purpose beyond entertainment or social connection.
Rumors and unverified information:Gossip typically involves spreading rumors or reports that haven’t been verified as accurate.
Personal and private matters:Gossip often focuses on the private lives and relationships of others, including their romantic interests, personal struggles, and other sensitive details.
Negative impact:Gossip can be harmful, as it can damage relationships, spread negativity, and perpetuate misunderstandings.
Desiring God presented What Is Gossip? Exposing a Common and Dangerous Sin
The Scriptures do not provide a definition of gossip in one location. Instead, they describe gossip in action and intimately tie it to the character of the people participating in this tantalizing sin. The Bible often uses the word gossip to describe a kind of person more than just a pattern of communication.
My way of summarizing the Bible’s teaching on this topic is to say that the sin of gossip is bearing bad news behind someone’s back out of a bad heart.
It should be no surprise that Desiring God would have an entirely negative view of gossip. The author gives examples of what isn’t gossip, and he is somewhat “schoolmasterly in his examples.
You are not being a gossip when you call the police about a crime you witness, when you earnestly seek counsel on how to relate to someone in your life, or when you carefully warn someone else about a dangerous person
He adds
Not all conversation about others, even about their sins, comes from a bad heart. It is possible for us to talk truthfully about other people’s bad news with a desire for their good and a hope for justice to be done
And tells us that Jesus was not a gossip!
What jumps out at me
- The word “slander” is stressed. Slander is telling a lie in order to cause malicious harm to another.
- It is characterized as Idle talk, meaning that it is often personally entertaining to “dish” about another person and can be used to provide social connections.
- It often involves talking about the private lives of others.
- It can involve “unconfirmed rumors.”
It is the last point that bothers me, and it is the one that abusive church leaders like to jump on.
Can gossip be good?
I want to examine this in the church setting since that’s where I’m most comfortable. I have seen gossip serve a greater good in the church, even if those who were leading at the time were not thrilled.
The New Yorker posted “Is Gossip Good For Us?”
Gossip can be serious, McKinney asserts, and it ultimately serves us well. The practice can act as a transmission of truth, as a check on power, and as a source of solidarity and irreverence; it brings us together and makes us curious about other people. Gossip is intimacy’s glue.
Scenario One
In my former church, there was a meeting to inform us that many teenage boys had been molested. We were told that the church had handled it. They knew nothing about it until the police contacted them. We were not to talk about it since those involved needed their privacy. I accepted that as the truth, which I learned later was not the whole truth. I talked about it with the mother of one young teen who had reported an incident a year previous that the church blew off as “locker room talk.” A group of us discussed this and confronted the church. We learned the boys were not offered counseling when we dealt with the issue. Was this idle talk? Nope. I learned about the abuse experienced by some, and to this day (17 years later) it is amongst the worst abuse that I have encountered. That event caused me to start this blog, which has been one of a group of blogs that have shown that the evangelical church has a terrible problem with sex abuse.
Scenario Two
A church hired a pastor who claimed that he was not a Calvinist. A few church leaders had decided that the church needed to become Reformed, but wanted to avoid using that language, which might “upset” some people. Things began to change. Hires were decisively Calvinist. Shepherd groups were formed to impose discipline, especially for those asking “too many questions.” People were told not to “gossip” and listen to the pastor in “authority” over them. Over time, people became aware that the church had radically rearranged its doctrinal stance. Those who spoke about it were called in for “talks with the pastor.” Over time, people began to communicate with one another and formed some support groups. The pastor, unwilling to “simmer down,” decided to leave and create a new congregation “down the street.” This doesn’t sound like a positive outcome, but it was. The people now had a church, smaller than before, but it was a church in which truth triumphed over a pastor who lied. The people who remained were much closer, having shared a difficult situation. In other words, intimacy was established.
Scientific American presented The Surprising Benefits of Gossip.
- 90% of people in workplaces around the world participate in gossip
- People gossip anout 1 hour a day
So, if something is a new negative, why do people do it anyway?
- It brings people together whether the information is positive, negative, or neutral.
- It helps you learn who to trust and who to avoid.
- It enforces group norms
I liked the stinky banana example provided.
complaints about a co-worker who puts smelly banana peels in the paper trash are likely to get back to them and let them know that placing stinky garbage in the incorrect container is not an office norm.
On the other hand:
- If the information about the targte of the gossip is injurious, it can cause feelings of guilt.
- It can also cause the who listed to you to not view you well.
A few studies indicated that most of what is shared in gossip is true.
Gossipers have been maligned from time immemorial as rumormongers or talebearers, yet most of what they impart is actually true, research shows.
Research suggests that humans are pretty good at sizing up the person who shares gossip with us.
One study shows that the determining factor of how people interpret gossip is whether they believe someone is passing on gossip to help out the listener or to benefit themselves. If they perceive it to be the former, they trust the gossiper more.
Another study indicated that most gossip is “newsy ” instead of negative.
Overall, Cruz and his colleagues found in their study that most gossip in real life was neither positive nor negative, just newsy: someone became a grandpa; someone got engaged. To avoid biasing their subjects, the investigators never used the term gossip.
Gossip may have a bad name, but science shows it’s often not a bad thing.
It appears that gossip tends to help us better understand the behavior of others. I was concerned about neighbors whose kids were suddenly absent. Another neighbor said, “Did you hear, they got a divorce and she moved out with the kids.” This stopped me from asking the husband if the kids were OK. In the article, it gave this example:
someone might complain about a co-worker who shows up late every day, but if they learn through gossip that the offending colleague is in the middle of a divorce or that this person’s young son has cancer, they are less likely to complain.
Years ago, I gave someone some nice perfumed lotion as a Secret Santa gift. Later, I learned from some folks that she hates perfume. I sure wish someone had shared this gossip with me sooner.
Finally, The Guardian had some interesting takes in It’s not whether you do it – it’s how you do it’: the expert guide to healthy gossiping/
How to gossip for the greater good.
I would add Jeffrey Epstein and, sadly, many church leaders to the following example. It can be a way to stop predatory behavior and even level the playing field.
In the past, understanding who could be trusted, and who was connected to whom and how, was key to women’s survival. “It became an essential skill and currency in a way that it just didn’t for men,” McAndrew says.
That remains the case today. The predatory behaviour of Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby was rumoured long before they were brought to justice. In the office environment, a new female employee might be told by other women to watch out for certain male co-workers, says McAndrew. “It might be seen as negative, nasty gossip – but it’s actually serving to protect.” Similarly, gossip can highlight workplace inequity, such as if one person is being paid much more than another in the same role. “It can be a way of levelling the playing field – of dealing with power.”
Final thoughts
We are a fallen humanity. I believe all of us have, at one time or another, listened to gossip that bothered us. I think we all have also gossiped in a way that makes us feel guilty. At the same time, God has created us to be intensely interested in others: what they do, what they think, and why. Yes, we can be kinder in our interactions. As I read the article from Desiring God, I was frustrated. Of course, they don’t want people “gossiping” about their church, seminary, and always vocal leader, John Piper. Some things needed to be discussed in that ministry, and many bloggers have done so. I hope this helped others to be aware of what they were getting into with the ministry.
My main takeaway point is this: If any church leader tells you not to gossip and to “trust them,” don’t. As Ronald Reagan said, “Trust, but verify.” You can’t research tomes in libraries to understand what is happening in your church. You need to ask others. This is not gossip. This is using our tongue to gain knowledge and truth. Thus, gossip can be a net good.
“gossip can be a net good”
“Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.” (Philippians 2:4)
See something? … know something? … experienced something? … then say something! Let them call it gossip, but use your words to rescue the abused and oppressed. Don’t be shamed into silence, when “gossiping” can bring an end to harm and hope for victims.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I heard that the SBC is gonna’ get its @$$ sued off.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fantastic article.
When one thinks about gossip, it might also be valuable to think about “fellowship.” I don’t know if this is a universal term. As a Midwest Lutheran(ELCA), it is (was) ubiquitous.
Between and after Sunday services, we have fellowship hour. Everyone drinks a cup or two of coffee while talking to friends and acquaintances. On Wednesday nights, we have community suppers as part of the education night.
We have dozens of women’s circles and a handful of men’s groups that join in fellowship. They range from quilting groups to prayer circles, fishing groups, and Bible studies.
People get together with church friends and acquaintances as small groups within the larger church community. I am an introvert; small talk does not come easily. I joined the ‘fix it’ group. Twice a month, we get together and do some repair work for members of the church or community who might need a hand.
It’s the new guy’s initiation ritual to make a giant vat of coffee and pick up treats from the local bakery 🙂
While working, we talk. We learn what each other’s families are doing. We might learn who is struggling and who is thriving. 90% of what we talk about could be considered gossip.
It is the gossip that builds community. It helps us grow closer as friends and a community. It is a way for simple people like me to be of service.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Has anyone read this:
https://baptistnews.com/article/how-to-steal-a-baptist-church/
This should sound familiar to a lot of folks here.
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
> bearing bad news behind someone’s back out of a bad heart
This is not a bad definition, IMO. The motive matters. By this definition, DG should welcome the reporting of ‘blogs like TWW, since the motive is to oppose a great evil in the churches.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Gus,
> “how to steal a church”
Thank you. This really is something new (at least within recent history). IMO it isn’t Reformed (aside from a few similarities of doctrine, which may be superficial similarities), and it seems to me that it isn’t Baptist (aside from not baptizing young children and the theory behind that).
Something new under the sun (“new” at least within our lifetimes; perhaps there are historical precedents for a similar constellation of doctrines and practices).
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hush hush, keep it down now
Voices carry
Hush hush, keep it down now
Voices carry
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Seems like Mohler’s minions and Ascol’s acolytes aren’t the only ones at these games.
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
https://friendsofjustice.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/mohler-ascol.png
They don’t look like spiritual leades, more like m*b bosses divvying up the spoils or the turf, IMO.
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Great article Dee. It seems like when some church leaders warn of the dangers of gossip, they’re really opposing the sharing of useful information for the common good.
I can’t actually remember how or when exactly I first discovered TWW. But I know I had so many questions about what was going on in churches and religious groups around me.
When I wondered how Driscoll managed to remain in professional ministry, what was wrong with Piper’s view on women, why the biblical counselling material seemed so unhelpful, & why the concept of ‘biblical femininity’ felt like such a burden, TWW was there.
Reading the articles & comments has often reassured me I’m not alone in my concerns, and helped me understand where these ideas are coming from, & why they are problematic.
This is exactly the type of information sharing that toxic leadership systems oppose, since it helps church members think critically & gain understanding of how to address issues in the church.
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
We have been seeing a similar thing happening around here with civic organizations. Historically, many things like soup kitchens, food pantries, homeless shelters, Boy and Girl Scouts, and after-school clubs, etc., have been run ecumenically as a community. Often, church groups, civic organizations, schools (we have several high schools and three colleges), and government organizations have run these organizations collaboratively.
For the past 10 years, the two new non-denominational (very far right) large churches have been pushing everyone out and taking control of the organizations. Basically, they ‘love bomb.’ They throw volunteers and money at the organization (the volunteers never identify themselves as members of the church).
When the next round of elections comes up, they get themself added to the board. Organization news starts to go out on the church’s letterhead. Quietly, bylaws change. For example, clients can’t receive food from the pantry unless they participate in bible studies with church members. Generally, within the years, everyone else has left.
The original organizations collapse. The original participants start smaller neighborhood organizations with bylaws to prevent being taken over. All the while, the mega churches are preaching and screaming about how everyone is discriminating against Christians.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
American churches seem to be very quick at judging and condemning everyone else and at impugning their motives, and even quicker at crying persecution at the slightest pushback. Crybabies!
This has been happening at least since the late 80ies, seems to be accelerating, and has caused me to lose all and any respect for such churches and preachers.
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thanks for the link, Gus. This indeed sounds very familiar. Countless congregations within the Southern Baptist Convention have experienced the stealth, deception, and theft of their churches by New Calvinists. Their modus operandi is outlined well in the article:
“Calvinist Baptists in the Southern Baptist Convention … process seemed relatively easy. All a church had to do was surrender every Baptist principle of the last 400 years — congregationalism, priesthood of the believer, the power of the laity, democratic polity — and become basically a four-piece band. The senior pastor serves as the lead singer and the three other members of the quartet are the backup singers … an unmitigated quest for power by a preacher willing to violate Baptist autonomy and push Baptist churches into an authoritarian hierarchy … This is spiritual demagoguery”
There will be a payday someday for those who run roughshod over the Body of Christ. To New Calvinist “pastors” who identify with the cited article, Jesus shouts “Repent or else!”
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thanks. Now that tune is stuck in my head ‘Til Tuesday.
Grumpy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Great comment. See something, say something-well said.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
They sure are worried.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
I loved your comment. Your church sounds incredible.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I am grateful to you for posting this. I have written about how the Calvinists steal churches, but I missed this. I have had a summer cold all week. I have put this into a draft.
I attended Junior’s church in Dallas for a few years and was deeply concerned with what I saw. I was there when the church started in its early days. I watched Junior go from a lovely house in my community to a mansion on a lake. Our daughters played together. They are pleasant so long as one sticks to pleasantries.
He visited us in the hospital when my 3-year-old daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor. But that’s an easy one. They became quite rich if their lifestyle is any indication. The church was a corporation that benefited the lifestyle of the Youngs, IMO.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Samuel Conner,
Perhaps their definition of evil and my definition of evil are at odds?
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christie24,
I’m glad it has helped. That is the only reason I continue. I, too, need to be around people who understand.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The music video of that was pretty cool.
Interestingly Aimee Mann was the female vocalist in “Time Stand Still” by RUSH.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hey Max, had Servetus been burned at the stake by the Catholics, would you be OK with that?
Grumpy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
It’s almost there now. The Cooperative Program funds missionaries (NAMB & IMB) and the seminaries. Not only have donations to the CO dropped over the past few years, but SBC, most likely, will have to dip into the CP to cover current legal problems.
Long article: https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/baptists/sbc-leaders-address-lack-of-funds-for-legal-bills/?print=pdf
Hmmm, the SBC and the Catholic Church are now justly beginning to pay their dues for allowing abuse and protecting predators……. and it all started with “good gossip”!
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christie24,
I found TWW in much the same way.
Angry, confused, ‘rebellious’ me was trying to make sense of the ever increasing restriction on women on God’s kingdom. Just couldn’t make sense of it.
I knew that “biblical femininity” is anti-biblical. Biblical femininity is just another form of captivity, so it is contrary to the Bible.
Luke 4:18. The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mayhap it’s about time too for a good juicy Lutheran scandal.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Good people sitting in pews across America deserve better than the pulpit-scoundrels infiltrating their churches by stealth and deception. They need to “gossip” them out the door as soon as possible!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Nope … nor would I have been OK with Southern Baptists (my Protestant church heritage) doing him in either. There’s just something un-Christlike about torturing, imprisoning and executing those who disagree with your brand of religion. “Gossiping” about them is one thing, but putting them to death is a bit extreme.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Well, my wife nearly got into a fistfight on Mother’s Day….
This year, Mother’s Day and Seniors Blessings Day fell on the same day. On Seniors Blessings Day, we hand out a bunch of scholarships. The seniors and their parents come forward to be acknowledged and receive a blessing. One of the kids usually gives a 2-3 minute thank you speech on behalf of the scholarship recipients.
It was hot that day, and the AC had not been turned on, so the girl who gave the thank you stood up in her cotton sun dress without her sweater. The old biddies had a cow.
When church was over, they laid into her and her mom like only a group of self-righteous church ladies can 🙁 They nearly had the girl and her mom in tears.
Anne, my wife, went all Mamma Bear Mode.
Right in the narthex, she tore them a new one about how they constantly complained that the no-good kids of today never show up for church… But when a bright and articulate young lady who attends regularly stands up and talks about how church affected her life, all they can do is complain about her immoral choice of clothes.
As a father of 3 girls, I thought the dress was a perfectly reasonable outfit for spring graduation…. although I would have warned them that they would probably receive pushback if they wore it to church.
So that is scandal, Lutheran style.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Alright then this ought to fix it.
It’s not
What you thought
When you first began it
You got
What you want
Now you can hardly stand it though
By now you know
It’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
It’s not going to stop
‘Til you wise up
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Good to hear. Thanks for the reply.
If you’re not familiar, there’s also the story of the martyrdom of Fritz Erbe, at the very castle after which this blog is named. I will let historians debate the degree to which Luther was directly involved. History is wild.
Grumpy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Grumpy,
Sandy,
Til Tuesday, voices carry, & such…
++++++++++
i’m guessing we grew up at the same time, watching MTV…
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
ironic face emoji…
the reactions i got from telling a sarcastic joke and wearing a tank top in 110 degree weather are mere shades of what you’re describing.
at least i only got treated to facial expressions and an air…although it’s amazing how words are loaded into a silent communication tirade.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Grumpy,
The “New” Calvinists aren’t brutal … they just deceive, oppress women, and steal churches.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I also asked AI about this. Here is one of the answers I got
“ If I can easily discuss the shortcomings and the sins of any other…If I can in any way slight another in conversation, or even in thought, then [in that moment] I know nothing of Calvary love.
Amy Carmichael”
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, and this had been brewing for a while.
— As I have mentioned, we live in a swing district in a swing state; different groups are spending upwards of $100 million per election on negative advertising with the goal of causing people to hate each other.
Several (maybe 10-15% on both sides) have internalized that fight and have entirely lost their filters. Our church is a moderate Lutheran, which hovers around 60%-40%. There is a lot of tension for everyone.
— Internally, we are struggling between traditionalists and people who prefer a more modern approach to worship. Traditionalists want to return to the hymns (accompanied by a pipe organ) and liturgy they learned as children.
The more modern approach includes a ‘Praise Band’ and much less traditional liturgy. While I prefer a more modern approach, I can still recite, by memory, the liturgy for a complete service from the 80s 🙂 As a compromise, we hold our services in several styles, which are pre-announced so people can pick what suits them.
— Mother’s Day. Historically, Mother’s Day was a big day, kind of like Easter, but without all the strangers to take up all the good pews. Men and boys wore suits. Women and girls generally wore new church dresses. Corsages and bouquets were not unheard of.
For the last several years, things have been becoming much more casual. This year, jeans and T-shirts were common for the kids. Adults ranged from business casual to jeans and T-shirts. Several graduates dressed up a bit with the standard spring outfit of a sundress and sweater.
— The average age of our church is increasing each year. Fewer and fewer young people attend. Some go to the exciting church down the block that waterskis for Sunday school. Others say home.
Traditionally, it has been a mom’s responsibility to make sure their kids come to church… by force if necessary. Many older women (grandma ages) are behaving like younger women (mom ages) are failing because their peers and their peers’ children are not in church and Sunday school.
— Something I am probably unqualified to comment on is how cruel women can be to one another, particularly around sexual issues. It is one of the reasons I find the public proclamations of the purity movement so troubling.
— Finally, the girl is 6 foot 1. For most of life, she has been nearly a foot taller than many of her classmates… who teased her mercilessly.
Over the last two years, she has come into her own; she earned a full-ride volleyball scholarship to a good school. Whereas she used to be all knees, elbows, and ears, she is now stunning. Quite literally what you would think of for a Nosrk warrior princess.
She is struggling emotionally and mentally to figure out where she fits in. The weird, awkward girl is now the center of attention everywhere she goes.
— So, for whatever reason, a couple of angry women picked this young girl and her mom as the target of all their frustrations.
— Momma Bear said this ain’t gonna fly today.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
Thank you for this story.
I take it as an illustration of a thing that has troubled me for decades in contemplation of my species (myself included):
Many of us seem to stop getting better at some point in our lives. Not everyone, surely, but many of us. One would think that in the course of what Reformed called “progressive sanctification”, that the older folk, male and female, would be the ones in whom mercy, grace, wisdom, patience, love, joy, peace, etc. would be most fully manifested. And there are people like this, but it seems that “long time in church” does not consistently cause this transformation in a person’s life.
I take this as an indication that something is missing. Or perhaps, more charitably, those people have been changed for the better, and a good thing, too — without the Gospel they would be truly awful.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I am seeing a Marvel comics turn to this.
Mama Bear remembers her super powers, claws and teeth flash in the vestibule.
Faux fur flies.
An ancient Norsk battle cry stuns the Praise Band into a sad and halting Kumbaya.
A silver volleyball, a brilliant bopping blur, is everywhere.
Tall warrior woman scatters the angry women like confetti.
Miraculously, no one is injured.
Nervous peace ensues.
Sunday school the next week is SRO.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Heck, I’ve been in churches where the pew had the uncompromising real-deal Gospel preached to them every Sunday and some of them continued to be among the meanest people on the planet! The Gospel doesn’t change you unless you hear it, receive it, live it.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I don’t have a problem with form as long as there is some substance to it … after all, Jesus is the eternal contemporary. But, too many churches resemble this parody:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-egY6t9BMGI&t=36s
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.”
— Proverbs 18:7 —
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Meanness is their mantle and cruelty their creed.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
But during church, I’m sure those ole gals had their Jesus-look on with halos hovering over their sweet little heads. The Bible uses a word for them that we don’t hear much these days … “hypocrisy”!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A cruel God makes for cruel worshippers.
Extra Sci-Fi on YouTube called it’ called “Rule by Vice”. Like their type example of House Harkonnen from Dune the example of those at the top (whether a god or the god’s mouthpiece priest) justifies the attitude and behavior all the way down.
Or as Screwtape put it in Screwtape Proposes a Toast, Corrupt one Celbrity and you corrupt all their followers for free.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“The greater the Piety, the greater the Perversion.”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You want to see Purity Culture on steroids, check out Islamic Republics (or Islamic cultures where the Wahabi dominate). In these cultures it is often the women of the family who instigate Honor Killings for Transgressors. Sometimes to the point of doing the deed themselves, mostly through manipulating the men. (And a century ago in this country when the Second Klan was at the peak of its power, it was the KKK women’s auxilliary who often manipulated the men in charge. If women cannot wield power directly, they will wield it indirectly, by influencing those who do wield it.)
And if FGM is in the cultural mix, you often find the older women inflicting it on the next generation, i.e. the same dynamic as Hazing: “I didn’t have it easy, WHY SHOULD SHE?”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
When the only hardships you have left are First World Problems (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A), your hindbrain will still react to them in LIfe-or-Death Survival Mode. And (in the words of Eighties Survivalists) “You Do What Must Be Done to SURVIVE!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Better phrasing:
The example and behavior of those at the top give Sanction from On High to do what has normally been forbidden.
And what is the justification of “God Hath Said!” or “It is Written!” but the Ultimate Sanction from On High?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
I admire Amy, but I wonder what she would say if she found out that her pastors hid a pedophile? My guess is she would be discussing some sins. These things sound nice until something bad happens.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
I have not heard of this happening in our community (and I’ve volunteered for some organizations).
The only time I stepped in was when our childcare centre was supporting the Samaritans Purse boxes. Our centre director was not aware these boxes are used to proselytize a version of the Christian faith overseas. Given the centre was secular and we had Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Catholic kids I took it to our board and suggested we support a local charity.
Once I shared who was backing Samaritans Purse, the vote was unanimous.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is a topic that hits close to home for me. In October, it will be a full decade that I was sexually violated by a male congregant at my Lutheran church and groomed into a relationship with him. All in all, the situation lasted just after 8 months.
The end result of this long, sad and extremely ugly story is that after I told my pastor the truth, he had a confrontation with the guy one Sunday after late service once everyone else had left. The guy stormed out the door and to date, has never been back. I highly doubt he would even go on church grounds as long as I and the pastor are still there. Once he was gone, Pastor immediately told me that I had to forgive the guy. I couldn’t even tell up from down at that point. Then he discouraged me saying anything to anyone else in the congregation because it could be construed as gossip. I couldn’t understand how sharing my own experiences would count as gossip, but whatever. Also, I was 36 at the time of the assault, not a kid. Still, I was shy and didn’t want to make waves. To my knowledge, I was the only one this guy targeted. By the time I was aware enough of my surroundings again to file a police report, the statute of limitations had run out. Still, I made a statement because I wanted my ordeal to be on the record in case this happened to someone else.
Now, nearly a decade on, I am a different person. Now, I am not afraid to stand up for myself and others. I realized that I have a voice and I want to use it to help other women and girls who have been hurt in this way. One more thing…the Church as an institution is LOUSY at dealing with trauma. Why are secular organizations so much better at recognizing it?
Dee, I cannot thank you enough for what you have done and are continuing to do through TWW. Anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Sunlight Disinfectant(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
When I was at CLC I saw red flags increasing over the years, but the fear of gossiping usually stopped me from talking to other people in the church about things. Now I wonder if that would have gotten me out of the church sooner and with less spiritual damage. Thankfully I had a Christian counselor and many books to read to validate my thoughts and feelings. I have had many discussions with former members that those who had some skepticism ( and the ability to think) like me left the church with some semblance of faith. Those who bought everything hook, line, and sinker feel so deceived and want nothing to do with God.
Former CLC’er(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That is good. It might be something very local due to the litigious nature of one of the local church and their aggressive growth.
The first time it happened, everyone was gobsmacked. Luckily, the organization had no significant assets, such as a building. So, it was just a matter of starting over on a smaller scale.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
What she said was born of years of confronting and addressing poverty, neglect of women and what would be called “trafficking of minors” and not pious and condescending wishful thinking. If she saw evil she confronted it and that would apply to your hypothetical scenario.
A good summary of her life can be read here –
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2023/09/amy-carmichael-missions-india-donhavur-temple-girls-pray/
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The real question is, what did the law do?
Is Chester (the molester) in the hoosegow?
And if the boyz club (church men) covered it up, how come they’re not in jail too.?
It’s called complicity.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes these restrictions seemed to have no limits to their potential scope and went far beyond historical issues like ordination. When you have to worry about giving a man directions, not being sweet enough, whose umbrella you’re under, whether you’re trying to usurp authority by expressing your opinion, how much is too much muscle tone, and how to non-directively tell a man to get back on the freeway (when he turns up at your back fence)…you know there are serious problems even if you can’t fully articulate what they are.
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I need to apologize for my flippant comment about the church ladies haranguing a young adult for her clothing… and then someone having the audacity to contradict them.
If you grew up in the Midwest, church ladies are just a part of life. We have all been dragged by our ear back to our parents so they could let them know our many failings. Our parents inevitably nodded and apologized profusely. It was just the order of things.
I was just so caught off guard by my normally quiet wife, with her greying hair pulled into a ponytail, standing up to them in such a public manner.
However, the more I thought about it, the situation, its underlying causes, and the shame it perpetuates is anything but funny.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Interesting to consider the origin of the word gossip: from Old English ‘god’ and ‘sibling’ meaning relative. Especially referred to women invited to attend and support at a birth. The linked article from History Extra provides background which, I think, is very pertinent to Dee’s post and the value of community support.
https://www.historyextra.com/period/general-history/gossip-why-do-we-say-childbirth-meaning/
Estelle(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Then I’d say “gossip” fits for many TWW commenters, since we are spiritual relatives.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The Netflix doc series on Vince McMahon, “Mr. McMahon”, reveals the cross section of churches, sports, and politics. Note the populist mobs, what creates and feeds and sustains them.
“They want entertainment; they don’t care about morals.”
For the LEADERSHIP, it’s all just business as usual.
The downfall of the WWE leader McMahon was when the “gossip” about what the Dear Leader was doing to women in relative secrecy, became litigation.
So there’s that.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
And it all started with “good gossip.”
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is from Kruger, “Bully Pulpit” p. 87:
“Just a quick word about gossip, which is a close cousin to slander. The two are similar in that they both involve negative reports. But whereas slander is false, gossip may be true. The problem with gossip is not necessarily that it’s false information but that it’s information shared with malicious intent—namely, to harm a person’s reputation or to entertain or titillate others.
Gossip also is a serious sin that churches should address. But we must remember that not all negative reports are gossip. A person may share a negative report about someone without malicious intent. Indeed, victims of abuse may share their story with others for many legitimate reasons: to get advice on how to proceed, to get counseling and encouragement for what they’ve endured, or to warn others about the pastor’s bad behavior. This last reason is particularly noteworthy. One might even say that a church member has a moral obligation to speak up about the pastor’s bad behavior to protect other church members from being harmed. Paul seems to act in this way when he warns others about the bad behavior of Alexander the coppersmith: “Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message” (2 Tim. 4:15).”
Watcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I wouldn’t call it gossip. To me, that term means saying something which can’t be proven or disproven. I would call it “whistleblowing”.
Mark R(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, and, my observation is that humor can evolve as we age, and acquires flavors and new powers that are darker, paradoxical, challenging, and ironic. And even healing. “Funny” is no longer the point, though that kind of tickle remains. Sometimes the truth is only revealed through some kind of humor. Jesters are serious business in the royal court.
Something is fishy about the lack of obvious humor in the Bible.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think there is a difference of intent between “gossip” and openly calling out bad behavior to safeguard others. One someone is harming you or another, there is responsibility to call it out so that it does not remain hidden and allow the person to continue to do it to others. It is not gossip. Gossip is saying truthful things but laden with ill-will and possibly hatred toward the person doing wrong. But if a perpetrator is causing harm or abuse, then individuals and the community should warn the person causing harm, and safeguard others by making it known.
What I think Dee is pointing out in this post is that what has often in the church been categorized as “gossip”, which has perpetuated abuse, is not gossip at all.
Watcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
“I’ve been in churches where the pew had the uncompromising real-deal Gospel preached to them every Sunday and some of them continued to be among the meanest people on the planet! The Gospel doesn’t change you unless you hear it, receive it, live it.”
++++++++++++++++++++
and yet the observation remains (not sure I can call it a fact… what’s a fact, anyway?)
that the kindest, most sincere & honest & generous people i’ve known are expressly not christians.
they are agnostics, atheists, muslims, and hindus.
somehow i think christian culture has inflated, twisted, redefined, and caricatured whatever ‘the gospel’ as mentioned and described in the NT means.
as part of a curious tightly-wired ingrown belief system that the ancient writers/editors of biblical writings would never have dreamed of.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“If women cannot wield power directly, they will wield it indirectly, by influencing those who do wield it.)
And if FGM is in the cultural mix, you often find the older women inflicting it on the next generation, i.e. the same dynamic as Hazing: “I didn’t have it easy, WHY SHOULD SHE?””
++++++++++++++++
i observe this happening in class-based hierarchical cultures.
it’s like 12-year old middle school social politics (which is really preschool social politics, just with bigger people).
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
i even think the belief systems generated by biblical groups missed the point that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jesus of Nazareth was/were trying to convey.
if the Jewish people totally missed the Messiah, surely likewise Christians have missed key thing(s), too.
they/we have every reason to puncture hubris when it rises.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Well said!
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My sister’s church embraces gamification. You can measure and record nearly everything to earn points.
Church attendance: in person or online — earn points
Small group time: bible study, prayer groups, other — earn points
Personal prayer or bible study — earn points
Volunteer time — earn points
Wednesday night education activities — earn points
Send your kid to their school — earn points
Extracurricular activities: American Heritage Girls will get you points. Girl Scouts will not.
Going somewhere? Take a picture with the church logo prominently displayed, post it to social media, send a link church social media account, and you get points.
Over time, one levels up.
By full member, you must meet annually with an elder(with your tax form in hand) to discuss your recommended (required) giving. Don’t make your recommended amount, then you can’t be a full member.
I believe 10%-15% of people who attend are full members. I have a friend who is an elder at the church; he is absolutely furious about it. But engagement and donations are through the roof so it looks like it is going to stay.
To me, it seems like a dystopian mashup of World Wrestling Entertainment, a Ponzi scheme, a church, and the Facebook algorithm.
But some people love it.
As an aside for a school project, my nephews had to go on social media sites and leave positive reviews for the church.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
What you describe seems unreal except it’s true.
The first settlers arrived on what became USA soil, fleeing their Old Country to ditch their authoritarian King and have freedom of worship.
Perhaps we’re right back to what they left behind in the Old Country. Or, at the very least, King adjacent. And definitely not King Jesus.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, what The Wartburg Watch community deals with on a daily basis is not gossip at all. That word is often used by church leaders to silence their congregations from talking about them. Robert Morris did this to prevent Gateway members from reading bad things about him in the blogosphere, even calling Christian watchblogs which post articles about wayward church leaders “Satan’s Hit List”.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Into this fray I will drop the following: PCA leader’s “scandalizers” list triggers ethics probe, fraternal rift
More to come once I have read through the article. Suffice it to say, I am unfamiliar with the entire situation as I am not a member of the PCA.
Burwell Stark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Whoa! Looks like denominational leaders have now joined the “gossip” crowd! When religious organizations start coming apart, the big boys point fingers and call each other names. Could be “good gossip” … guess we will see.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Whatever else may be going on, stories like these definitely highlight the failure and/or nonexistence of appropriate channels for resolving conflict or reporting misconduct within this group.
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Saw similar back in the early Eighties when the company I worked for was circling the drain, all the top management cramming their hands deeper and deeper into a shrinking till and micromanaging dress codes. Playing Game of Thrones for real while the White Walkers (their creditors) kept closing in.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Burwell Stark,
considering this and other people & articles promoted, TGC is highly irresponsible (& glib about it), in my view.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And all tax-free.
Nice racket if you can pull it off.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ava Aaronson,
I’ve sometimes encountered – when I wanted to ask deeply about doctrines – it implied that to talk about doctrines is gossip itself.
Like Basil Fawlty – don’t mention ze war – don’t mention ze toctrines – which they endlessly do – their thin, ill matched ones, trying to drown out my threatened glimmer of another level.
It’s not as if some slow bloke on the ground floor is going to swing a wrecking ball on their edifice. By just trying to join in some more or less relevant chit chat.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
Thank God for Mama Bear! Having an ally in a situation in which you are being picked on can make a tremendous difference in how the event is experienced. Having someone else, especially a peer of the offenders, say what is true, helps diminish the sense of being alone,feeling crazy, and struggling with false guilt. The trauma will be considerably less.
eyewitness(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In Old School D&D, you got XP for the amount of Gold Pieces you acquired or spent, depending on the Dungeonmaster. Does this church award XP for the Gold you Tithe? Pay to Play?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, and the best part was watching my daughter’s face. She just finished her junior year of high school. The age where parents are the most embarrassing things imaginable.
At first, she was mortified that her mom would make a scene in public. Then her face shifted to one of pride as she realized that her mom was fiercely protective when needed. I hope that is what the girls take away from the experience.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They haven’t missed Him yet!
Ah! Evangelism! And inure them to getting their consciences crushed young (“we want your boys!”).
Here, some denominational trends are getting nervous about individuals with a broad background (like me) that turn up (when they ought to take it as a complement), but ambitious about sweepingly changing broad swathes of churches in their own mirror image.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“I look for those carrying Holy Hand Grenades in their pocket and pull the pins.”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“And the Lord spake, saying, ”First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.”
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)