This new picture features a rare cosmic phenomenon – an Einstein ring. What appears a single, strangely shaped galaxy is actually two galaxies far apart. ESA/Webb, NASA & CSA, G. Mahler
Acknowledgement: M. A. McDonald
“Opinion is not slander.” Mazie Hirono
Who is Josh Buice?
According to Wikipedia:
Buice served as a pastor of Pray’s Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia[1] since August 2010 until May 2025. He has a B.S.B.A. from the University of West Georgia(2001) and has also earned M.Div and D.Min degrees from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. As of April 2023, Grace Bible Theological Seminary (GPTS) announced that Buice will begin serving as an assistant professor of preaching at the seminary.[2][3]
G3 Ministries (of which I knew nothing.)
…Buice is the Founder and formerly served (resigned on May 12, 2025)[4] as the President of G3 Ministries. G3 began with the first G3 Conference (Gospel – Grace – Glory) in 2013, which was held on the campus of Pray’s Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia where Josh Buice serves as Pastor. As the conference grew, a 501(c)(3) organization had been formed in 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic to become a ministry organization that hosts the G3 Conference biennially, along with other workshops and trainings, and to provide various theological multimedia resources for local churches.[5][6]
Anti-Social Justice movement
…In June 2018, Buice organized a meeting in Dallas, Texas with other conservative evangelicals to address the issue of a rising social justice movement among American Evangelicals. Buice and others claimed that those in that movement were mixing the Christian Gospel and the social gospel, which led to the drafting of the Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel (which is also referred to as “The Dallas Statement”).[7]
Tom Ascol was given the responsibility to write the original draft,[8] which upon revision was signed first by the original summit attendees also including James White, John MacArthur, Voddie Baucham, and others. Over ten thousand churches or individuals have since added their signatures on the website that was for the statement.[9]
Took his SBC church out of the SBC due to perceived liberalism in the SBC.
In January 2022, Buice announced that Pray’s Mill Baptist Church was leaving the Southern Baptist Convention, claiming that leaders in the SBC were “behind the scenes” working on a “devious deconstruction plan” for the convention, and that the convention had largely shifted away from a theologically conservative denomination towards a more liberal-influenced one.[10][11]
Buice appears to be a member of the conservative Calvinist Baptist movement.
Baptist News Global wrote Calvinist Baptist pastor says Guidepost recommendations in sexual abuse report are ‘harmful’ and threaten ‘the sufficiency of Scripture.”
In a blog post for the conservative Calvinistic network G3 Ministries, former Southern Baptist pastor Josh Buice of Atlanta criticized the recommendation of Guidepost Solutions’ independent investigation into the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee’s mishandling of sexual abuse to create a database of convicted and credibly accused clergy sexual abusers as “another example of pragmatism driving theology.”
While Buice stated that “any accusation of sexual abuse within a single local church is horrific,” he also stated he believes the Guidepost report is “harmful.”
He took the easy way out by citing the autonomy of the local church. I have long said that this fact alone would cause the movement to deal with sex abuse in the SBC to die. Buice is one of the ones who pulled the trigger on that, along with his “good” friends.
The Guidepost recommendations are “a classic example of a failed philosophy of ministry,” he wrote. “It’s not the role of the convention to police local churches. It’s the role of the local church to return to a firm commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture, which will result in a proper response in all areas of sin.”
Buice ended his post by stating his opposition to any new abuse reforms. “The real answer is found in the pages of Scripture,” he wrote, “and does not require the implementation of new methods, programs or policies.”
It is a real yawner to this point. Where it gets interesting to me comes next.
Josh Buice pulls a Mark Driscoll and anonymously slams his compadres.
Christianity Today/Kate Shellnut posted G3 Ministries: Founder Used Fake Profiles to Slam Fellow Christians.
The Reformed Baptist ministry G3 has called off its biennial conference after reporting that its president, Josh Buice, ran multiple anonymous online accounts to insult fellow Christian leaders.
Buice’s church, Pray’s Mill Baptist in Georgia, found “irrefutable evidence” that the pastor—who had over 59,000 followers on his personal X account—was secretly behind at least four other social media profiles as well as two email addresses and Substack accounts, according to an announcement on Monday.
His homeboys caught him.
Buice resigned from G3 and was put on indefinite leave from Pray’s Mill Baptist, where he served as pastor for 15 years. Church leaders said the suspicions around Buice’s ties to the anonymous accounts date back at least two years; Buice denied involvement until the end of an hourslong meeting with elders over a week ago.
…But according to the church’s statement, his anonymous activity targeted those closer to his own conservative Reformed movement and even fellow elders in his own congregation. The church has not publicly identified Buice’s fake accounts, and his personal pages have been taken down from X and Instagram.
So, who did he target? Well, the boys aren’t saying, but I think it hits close to home.
The 2025 G3 Conference was slated to take place in the Atlanta area in September, featuring Buice along with Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, James White, and others. The ministry explained in its update on Tuesday that it canceled the gathering not because it couldn’t go on without Buice but because he had targeted several speakers on the lineup, and “we did not want to put these brothers in the difficult position of deciding whether to participate in an event so closely tied to someone who had maligned them.”
According to this statement by G3 Ministries, Buice will apologize to “all” of them.
Since then, Josh has acknowledged his sin, expressed sorrow, and asked for forgiveness. His desire is to personally ask forgiveness of every person he has slandered or lied to.
Dee is interested. Who did he “slander” and what does it mean to “slander” someone? Here are some of the names of the speakers whose conference was cancelled. Interesting…
The G3 board said Buice even slandered Christian leaders who had been slated to speak at the now-canceled G3 National Conference, which was scheduled for Sept. 11–13 in Atlanta, Georgia. Some of the Christian leaders who were scheduled to speak include: Jeff Johnson, James White, Scott Aniol, Jeff Moore, Sam Waldron, Virgil Walker and John MacArthur.
Could it be that some of his “slander” was Buice’s strange way of telling the truth?
The Roys Report posted Josh Buice Used Fake Account to Email Allegations About Voddie Baucham to The Roys Report.
Uh oh.
Voddie Baucham is one of those “Thou shalt not mess with this guy. He’s got friends ike Tom Ascol.”
Writing as “Tom Smith,” disgraced G3 Ministries Founder and President Josh Buice emailed The Roys Report (TRR) last December with allegations of financial misconduct against well-known author and pastor Voddie Baucham, TRR has learned.
The email was sent from the address tomsmith5959ga@gmail.com. This is one of two anonymous email addresses Buice used over the past three years, elders at Pray’s Mill Baptist Church (PMBC) in Douglasville, Georgia, confirmed today with TRR.
In the email to TRR, Buice questioned how $1.4 million raised through a GoFundMe campaign to cover medical expenses for Baucham were spent.
Yikes. Did Ascol and Baucham create a cash cow? $1.4 million is quite a haul.
In 2021, Baucham announced he was battling heart failure, was uninsured, and would “have to cover everything out of pocket.” So, Tom Ascol, a Southern Baptist pastor and president of Founders Ministries, set up the GoFundMe page to help Baucham. (Founders Ministries is a Reformed Baptist group within the Southern Baptist Convention focusing on returning Baptists to their roots).
Dee and hubby spent some time figuring out why Baucham was uninsured since the Affordable Care Act is accessible to all US citizens. Hubby is aware that his patients (he is a cardiologist) need to access it when they have surgery. Is Baucham an American citizen?
Well, questions start being asked by all sorts of people.
Madness ensued.
Buice claimed in the email to TRR that Baucham’s operation would have cost only about $300,000.
“The real question remains. Where is the $1.1 million dollars?” the email stated, noting that Baucham was moving to Florida soon and partnering with Ascol’s Founders Ministries.
“People should know where the money is if they gave it for an emergency operation and it’s being used for something else,” Buice wrote. “That’s deceitful.” TRR replied to the email from “Tom Smith,” asking if he had “firsthand knowledge that the $1.1 million is being misused” but no one replied.
The problem is that no one will explain how the $1.4 million was spent. Apparently, money needs to be spent on the problem in the fundraising effort, as seen in this tweet by Julie Roys.
What’s also stunning are the number of people supporting her argument that @VoddieBaucham can use GoFundMe funds for anything he wants. This is glaring tribalism. None of them would apply this standard to anyone who’s not in their camp.
— Julie Roys (@reachjulieroys) May 17, 2025
Apparently, Megan Basham, who is involved in the Conservative Baptist effort, believes it can be used for whatever the beneficiary desires.
Josh Buice recants
The Christian Post posted Josh Buice recants claim that Voddie Baucham’s $1.4M heart surgery campaign was ‘deceitful.’
“In a past critique of Voddie Baucham and Founders Ministries, I made unsubstantiated and sinful remarks, including leading questions that lacked evidence and called into question the good reputation of my brother, Voddie Baucham,” Buice said in a statement released by G3 MinistriesFriday night.
“I was deceived by the deceitfulness of sin and allowed myself to be led down a path that dishonored God and unjustly maligned faithful men and ministries through an unrighteous, critical spirit cloaked in anonymity. The details originally shared with me were without merit. The accusations proved to be unfounded — false claims that should never have been used to criticize Voddie Baucham, Tom Ascol, or Founders Ministries,” he continued.
He has to apologize if he wants to swim in their pond.
What is the bigger question about all of this hubbub?
- Why in the world did Buice do this?
- Does he have some legitimate concerns about people who run in his circle?
- Did he want to expose the problems, but he’s a scaredy-cat to say it and claim his thoughts?
In the meantime, just because Buice is a poltroon (I have waited 16 years to use that word), doesn’t mean he didn’t tell the truth.
Back to the word slander, it is often used by those who find the truth inconvenient. I wrote about this in Slander or an Inconvenient Truth?
We now know there are some concerns about the use of the $1.4 million raised for Baucham (and I’m not yet buying the “uninsured” claim.) Could there be similar concerns about some of these other leaders? Is it really slander when there are legitimate questions? I’m curious.
Legal residents of the US also have access to the Affordable Care Act provisions (though have to be resident for 5 years for medicaid). Voddie Baucham was born in Los Angeles so is a birthright US citizen. He apparently resided in Zambia from 2015 until 2024.
However “In 2021, Baucham announced he was battling heart failure, was uninsured, and would “have to cover everything out of pocket.”” This means he wasn’t living in the US at the time and so less likely to have taken advantage of the Affordable Care Act. It also seems he ended up in US hospital emergency room which likely escalated expenses rapidly. Zambia does have a good health care system for Africa and aims to make basic health care free. Heart surgery is possible but almost certainly doesn’t have the facilities of a top notch US or European hospital (facebook page for the National Heart Hospital – Zambia https://www.facebook.com/NHHZM/ with some heart warming stories).
Erp(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It seems you are finding common themes.
Why did Josh Buice behave the way he did? If I saw these behaviors in a friend or peer, I would look for two underlying thought processes.
— Cognitive dissonance. At some level, I suspect Josh is unable to perform the mental contortion required to accept that people who are ‘good’ are doing bad things. Rather than reporting the behavior to church authorities, who wouldn’t take action anyway, he tries the role of anonymous whistle-blower.
Much like whistle-blowers everywhere, if he were to report to the normal chain of command, he would be punished while the organization has time to circle the wagons. His current role was too good for him to give up, so he reported anonymously.
— Hubris. The second thing I would look for is hubris. As we see with other Church leaders, there is often a great deal of hubris. They often seem to internalize statements like, “I am good, therefore what I do is good,” and some take it to the next level, “I am blessed by God, therefore what I do is blessed by God.”
This creates an attitude for both them and their followers that the ends justify the means, which can lead to further cognitive dissonance.
It would be interesting to see what other posts Josh has written. Are they all whistle-blower-style posts, petty bashing of people he feels have wronged him, self-promoting posts, giving the work he does under his own name ‘five stars’, or some combination of the above? I would like more information, but I don’t think that will ever be made public.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Quick edit. My inital post should have included that term WITHOUT COSEQUENCES
‘At some level, I suspect Josh is unable to perform the mental contortion required to accept that people who are ‘good’ are doing bad things WITHOUT COSEQUENCES.’
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The way the theodudes relate to each other can be so strange. On one hand, judging from the way they write book endorsements, you would think this is a band of spiritual brothers who truly have each other’s best interests at heart in Christ.
Their descriptions of each other are full of themes like the best of friends, the closest of brothers, like iron sharpens iron, the wise counsel of a friend etc etc.
On the other hand, many TWW stories demonstrate the failure of this supposed accountability in practice. It often seems that brother X and brother Y don’t love each other enough to call each other and have tough conversations about accurate resumes, honorary degrees, treatment of subordinates, and respectful behaviour toward women.
Instead of speaking the truth in love, they have to close ranks around their comrade, erase them when the publicity gets out of hand, or tip off news media using fake accounts. As much as they like to emphasise the masculine feel of Christianity, they seem to have difficulty taking responsibility for their own opinions and actions.
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes. You are spot on.
The first place I experienced this was in the military. I was in a SOCOM unit. When fighting the enemy or in public, no one had any doubt that everyone in the unit had their back…. As soon as we returned to the rear, the bickering and backstabbing for the limited number of available promotions, unit resources, and good deployments was insane.
A similar thing happens in academia. At one _public_ level, institutional reputation is paramount. Behind the scenes, the competition for promotions, committee assignments, resources, and grant money is bloody (in a nerdy sort of way).
I assume the same happens in politics, where people balance party unity with individual aspirations. It also likely applies to top-level sports, where players must present themselves as a team while competing for starting positions, salaries, and endorsements.
Many of the seemingly strange rules of older churches, such as the Catholic Church and older Protestant denominations, are intended to reduce these tensions. In their zeal to ‘reform’ many reformed churches are naively eliminating these rules for personal gain. My guess is that it is going to end badly.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Slightly off topic, I came across an article about Voddie Baucham which outlines his core beliefs. It starts with one of his quotes – “ “One of the reasons that God makes human babies small is so they won’t kill their parents in their sleep. They’re evil.” ~ Voddie Baucham”.
The full article can be read here – https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/2020/06/01/the-child-as-viper/
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
What do predators eat once they run out of prey?
—
(With due apologies to HUG)
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
** While Buice stated that “any accusation of sexual abuse within a single local church is horrific,” **
That sounds weird to me. It is sexual abuse (or non-sexual abuse) in a church that is “horrific.” An accusation of sexual abuse is not “horrific” but an event that should lead to other events, such as law enforcement involvement.
I wonder if Mr. Buice finds in the Bible the requirement that accusations of sexual abuse (or other crimes) in the church should be immediately reported to government authorities.
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The tawdryness of these poltroons is astounding and hilarious.
Excorciating abuse survivors and reformers for being non-biblical and “pragmatic” — then cultivating a secret media farm of fake identities from which to anonymously fling poo at your closest brothers.
Verily, truth is stranger than fiction.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Erp,
I remain unconvinced. Any man worth his salt (Don’t these guys like the real men stuff?) should plan to provide for the needs of his family. Insurance, like health care, life, and disability, should be part of that provision. And when his heart went south, he went to the Mayo Clinic, an institution my husband and I know well. He wanted the best care. There was no local hospital for this guy. It is relatively easy to apply for this insurance. We have a family member who did so. Most doctors’ offices have folks who can help with that need. I’m sure Mayo has the same folks.
Another thing that irritates me about those in ministry is that they can eschew Social Security. Most understand that they need to save for their retirement. I have heard one too many stories of older pastors claiming they are penniless at the end of their careers. That is why many churches join the SBC to participate in their retirement funding.
In the end, I believe it is incumbent on Baucham to man up and explain where the money went. I also want to know if he used some of his windfall from GoFundMe to finally purchase some health insurance.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
I have heard that he made such a statement. He runs in circles that allow such nonsense to be spewed.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
A collary to what you wrote is the old saying.. do not bring up politics or religion if you want a peaceful dinner…
Behind this saying is the concept that the “party line” wins against “truth speak”… I see this not just in “politics and religion” but in many powerful “orgs”.. If you question the “offical message” look out..
What is so gaulling to me is how often Christain Evangelism is predicated on proclaiming “THE TRUTH”; yet as we see here at TWW, heinous things (i.e. child sex abuse) gets covered up for the sake of the “Cause”….. sigh, sigh
Jeffrey J Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That is funny that you would say that. At my daughter’s wedding shower last weekend, she announced that talking about politics or religion would not be allowed. People have strong feelings about both, but her shower was not the place to share them 🙂
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Just some random ideas that popped into my head as I read the post:
Anonymously tarnishing and demeaning the reputations and the credibility of others is a fairly common thing certain types people resort to to increase their own fame, attention, popularity, and profits.
I suspect that is a big part of what Buice was attempting to do with his anonymous accounts.
The part on Baucham not having health insurance…… no excuses; the man’s got money.
But, I do know a couple of fake Christian men who do not believe in ‘wasting’ money on life insurance: They say, “What use is life insurance to me? I’ll have to die to collect the money, so I won’t be around to spend a penny of it.”
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The post is largely about Buice but I would like to air an opinion regarding the Baucham GoFundMe situation: though I am loathe to agree with Megan Basham on almost anything, she has a valid point about Baucham’s right to use the money for whatever purposes he so chooses as it was given to him. This is in line with designated giving for churches (with the sole exception of cemetery funds): designated giving is a suggestion, but churches are not legally obligated to use those funds exclusively for the purposes of the gift if another need is greater.
That said, legal obligations and ethical standards are different. While Baucham has the legal right to use the funds as he so chooses and without disclosure, ETHICALLY he should completely disclose the full use, down to the last penny. This would both honor Christ and encourage those who gave.
Burwell Stark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It shows that Baucham doesn’t care about ethics or has a lack of them, but then somehow I am not surprised given the gallery of scoundrels he hangs out with.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Admirals in Rowboats”
Believer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Another thought…
Given the last OP on “submission”… one has to wonder, why “on earth” would anyone want to submit to these “leaders”????
Jeffrey J Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Someone explain to me:
1. Did Voddie have open-heart surgery such as “by-pass”? How many?
or:
2. Did Voddie have stents put in some arteries? How many?
or:
3. Does Voddie have a condition called Myocarditis?
or:
4. Does Voddies have Cardiomyopathy?
There is a big difference in these conditions along with big difference in expense.
‘noted he stated potential ‘heart transplant’?
All this very curious as it does relate to the 1.4 million.
He looks very good for someone who may have had ‘open-heart’. (this is good)
There is nothing wrong for ‘one’ to want to know specifically why his medical expenses are so high.
GDG(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It seems that some of these clergy merely have relationships of convenience and when someone crosses one’s defined line, they are fair game no matter what the means – which of course is always rationised.
On that, its interesting to note how people will not only cherry pick scriptures to suit their theological narrative, personal idiosyncrasies, desires and biases. So too is there considerable cherry picking where local, state & federal government interventions and support starts and finishes Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
Regarding health care, which is a significant issue that affects us all on this little planet & life support system. I’m very thankful to working men and women within the trade union movement and low church clergy who historically and at cost to themselves, supported and implemented universal health care in my neck of the woods. Though not perfect, and to this day there are still some lobbying to undermine it for obvious reasons, no man, women or child need rely on any gofundme system nor be left with any financial burdens that are impossible to overcome if hospitalised and treated for illness or injury short or long term.
Interesting that defence can be nationised in the trillions of dollars but not the common good for the implementation & defence of quality heath care for all citizens.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Why did Baucham’s GoFundMe end up raising so much? Didn’t he already have an idea of how much he would need? If so, why keep receiving donations far above what you require?
Arlo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christie24,
“As much as they like to emphasise the masculine feel of Christianity, they seem to have difficulty taking responsibility for their own opinions and actions.”
+++++++++++++++++
the 12-year old boy feel of christianity. (or maybe i’m being generous)
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Burwell Stark,
“That said, legal obligations and ethical standards are different.”
++++++++++++++
hell, biblical standards and ethical standards are different.
(pardon me)
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I agree he should have had medical insurance, but, I suspect he was suspicious of the Affordable Care Act because it passed when Obama was president or even because it was government sponsored (this is a fellow who insists on home schooling so as to avoid the government schools). Given he was a missionary in Zambia he should have made arrangements for medical care there plus covering medical evacuation to a country with some top notch medical facilities if he didn’t want to be in the same boat as most of his congregants (I think South Africa would be the closest); I doubt either of those could be gotten under the ACA. He should also have made arrangement for when in the US; that could be done under the ACA I think. My guess is he knew he could pass the hat if he needed expensive medical treatment and the hat would be filled (for him, not for say one of his congregation in Zambia who had a similar condition).
I note that ministers who opt to be exempt from paying social security on ministerial earnings cannot revoke that exemption. There have been a few windows where they could revoke (the last in 2002). https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.11/handbook-1130.html
I feel sorry for church employees who may not realize that they aren’t entitled to unemployment payments since churches are exempt from paying unemployment tax (except in Oregon where they must pay the tax). Some churches do make arrangements (often by opting into the state system) but not all.
Erp(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
Yes you are being generous to those guys.
Too generous.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The New Calvinist tribe take care of their own – protecting and covering for their dudebros – until a potato becomes too hot too handle. At which point, they distance themselves from the bad-boy in order to protect their own skin … it then becomes “Driscoll who?”, “MacDonald who?”, etc.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Because the New Calvinists alone hold truth; only they preach the one true gospel. You MUST submit to them if you want God on your side. (sarcasm)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I guess Dee does read my posts….
I thought Tom Ascol set up the GoFundMe while Voddie was busy “Not dying”. At least that’s what “Tom Smith” claimed.
To give a little context to the $1.4M, Ascol posted at the time “I have consulted with medical experts who have said that his expenses could conservatively run past $1mil. He is very sick, has complicating kidney disease, & facing lifelong treatment and care. Many unknowns. Costs are astronomical.” Screen grab from Gab here.
https://protestia.com/2025/05/16/josh-buice-sent-tip-to-the-roys-report-accusing-voddie-baucham-of-misappropriating-1m-in-donations/
Why Baucham didn’t have medical coverage with evac is beyond me.
Dee states above:
“It is relatively easy to apply for this insurance. We have a family member who did so. Most doctors’ offices have folks who can help with that need.”
I am glad it worked out for your family. In my neck of the woods, some doctors’ offices do not accept Medicaid or other public funding. “We’re not denying you treatment, but we don’t accept your insurance.” So your insurance is suddenly worthless, at least at that practice, and you’re left with cash payment in full as the only option. I have seen it first hand. It is maddening.
Why did Josh Buice do it? A bad case of the Diotrephes Disease?
Grumpy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
At the risk of annoying everyone….
I think we need to take a step back and consider our language carefully when talking about the Voddie Baucham fundraiser. The challenge is that the fundraiser opens questions in at least four areas that people often conflate: What is legal? ie, fraud. What is allowed according to GoFundMes’ terms and conditions? What is morally and ethically correct? What does the bible say one should do?
Personally, I think this thing failed to pass the smell test. The lack of transparency is very problematic. I would not have donated. If Baucham were my neighbor, I probably wouldn’t trust him to take my garbage bins out to the curb when I was on vacation…. but seemingly many people feel differently.
It strikes me as a situation of sitting down to dinner and saying. “Oh, you’re paying. In that case, I will have a couple of appetizers, the steak, the lobster, and the most expensive bottle of wine. By the way, I’ll also need a couple of raw steaks to-go for my dogs.”
I don’t know about the legality. My layman’s reading is that it is acceptable under GoFundMe’s terms and conditions, but I would consult a lawyer for clarity if I were personally involved in the case.
The Bible has several dozen verses dealing with deception and greed; I’ll leave it to the experts to decide which apply and why.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My bizarre experience at the intersection of defense and health care.
I have a VA disability rating, so for several years after I got out of the army and before I married my wife and was covered by her insurance, I depended on the VA for health care. I was a college student at the time.
One evening, I had severe pain and drove myself to the emergency room. While waiting, I passed out…
The next morning, I woke up. My gallbladder had ruptured. The hospital performed surgery to remove it.
While I was unconscious, the surgeon had contacted the VA to do the surgery locally. The VA denied the claim, requiring that I take an 8-hour ambulance ride to the nearest VA hospital that does the surgery. The surgeon decided the travel risk was too great and did the procedure locally.
The bizarre thing. The hospital billed the VA $4,000 with a copy CCed to me. When the VA denied the claim, the hospital turned around and billed me $17,000. I offered to pay the hospital the original $4,000 bill, but they would not accept it.
I fought this thing for 18 months just on general principles. The final resolution was a certified letter to my senator containing my military and health records with copies CCed to the VA, the local hospital, and a local TV news channel. I never heard another word about it.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That should be. The hospital HAD performed surgery to remove it.
Grammarly is merciless in its auto corrections! I guess Grammarly prefers the simple past tense to the past perfect tense. Yep, I had to Google that.
My old eyes don’t always notice the changes before I hit send 🙁
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
Thank you for this story. I think that the phenomenon of “uninsured (or claim denied) charged more than insured” is pretty common. Our health care system is, IMO, more about profit extraction than service provision.
The world has changed. I intuit that there will be much more suffering before things begin to improve, if they do. All creation groans under its subjection to futility.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
This is why I am thankful, at least till now, that I have freedom to choose and we do not have a “State Religion”….
After reading TWW for a number of years, and reading about the behavior of these “Leaders”, the NT passage in Philipians 2 kept poping into my head.. While I have expressed my displeasure at my fundamentalist training, I must be thankful that they made us memorize verses… and the verse on “LEt this mind be in you, as was in Christ Jesus” kept poping up.. and how “un-Christ like” so many of them are…..
MAx, you keep harping on how selective these clowns are with respect to the Bible, and how so many pew sitters do not know their Bible.. you are exactly correct..
Jeffrey J Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In my five decades in various fandoms, I’ve run into a lot of Mooch-and-Sucker Shows.
The Mooches always have Champagne-and-Caviar tastes.
And get very offended very easily. “BUT YOU’RE RICH!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Anyone else remember the Little Rascals short about “The He-Man Woman-Haters Club”?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Views, Clout, and Like-and-Subscribe Upvotes.
(With or without the 50,000+ Facebook friends from Russian bot farms…)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Why did Diddy Do what Diddy Did?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
What real consequences will he suffer?
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Just to clarify, I am genuinely asking these questions. The sum raised seems to me like it’s well beyond what would be considered reasonable
Arlo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s been my observation over 70+ years of doing church, that much of the American church is religious but spiritually destitute. A great multitude of church members neither read their Bibles or pray as they ought; thus, they are easy targets for false teachers and aberrant theologies.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Who the Son sets free is free indeed!” (John 8:36)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I hadn’t heard of Mr Buice until he was talking about his former friend Mr Lawson being an official church “member”. Some pastors from Cupertino had been given the impression by Lawson’s former church, that he wasn’t (which in these circles would mean the former church was powerless to “discipline” him). So I thought “someone’s lying here” and saw nothing for the pastors to gain by lying, and maybe much for Mr Buice to gain. So I’m pretty sure we know now who the liar was. Mr Buice at that time used some pretty over-the top language:
“The waves of sin are often severe, and the impact is often far more broad than anyone would have imagined. In the aftershock of sin, emotions rage and disappointment presses people to assign blame. However, the blame game is a path that’s filled with many traps and snares.
In recent days, various reports, articles, and podcasts were released that purported the idea that Steven Lawson was not a member of Trinity Bible Church. As you can imagine, the news spread far and wide—adding salt to already open and very sensitive wounds.
In several of the reports, G3 Ministries was openly critiqued for our willingness to platform someone who was not a member of a local church. As a result, we would like to address these matters and provide clarity on the muddy waters regarding this situation.
After the reports were published about Steven Lawson’s lack of church membership, we sought to verify these reports. What we have discovered is that these reports are indeed false. The facts are clear—Steven Lawson and his wife are members of Trinity Bible Church. We have verified this information from two sources within Trinity Bible Church. It is not clear how these rumors began to spread, but like a destructive wildfire, such false accusations need to be stopped.“
Satin(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That is what I was thinking. They don’t tell, or bring any issues to light, where they know the chain of command will beat them with the rod of “that is gossip” or “all sin is equal” etc. And is there any one else in Voddie’s congregation/circle that also doesn’t have health insurance and needs a medical procedure? Is money just given to the popular? I swear I cannot see why people follow these so called leaders and then give money to them!
JJallday(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“He has to apologize if he wants to swim in their pond.”
Oh, I figure his swimmin’ days are over in that particular pond! His goose is cooked, the cat’s out of the bag, the jig is up, he’s toast. Within that tribe, it’s now “Buice who?”
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Because … we live in a world in which a few charismatic men become gatekeepers for the inerrant truth of an inscrutable ancient library promising eternal life based on paid membership in the correct cult?
Just a guess.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you
Forget the dead you’ve left, they will not follow you
The vagabond who’s rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore
Strike another match, go start anew
And it’s all over now, Baby Blue
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
I trust that you’re health now is relatively good but sad to learn that the culture and systems with regards to health care put such stress on you and made recovery more difficult.
Also sorry that health care for US citizens entails money from start to finish and always amazed what goverments and business choose to subsidies at the expense of the welfare of individuals, families and the community broadly. Which according to economists negatively impacts society and is economicaly costly in itself.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
After he took from you everything he could steal…
How does it feel?
How does it feel?
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
doubleplusunperson.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I suspect he was and continues to be a selfish and shortsighted person. Boy, does he love his fancy suits (Do a quick Google image search, he has a lot of suits and none of them are from the discount store.) Yet somehow, he could not afford health insurance.
When he did need health care, he didn’t want the same care his congregation would have received…. Instead, he wanted full service VIP treatment at a destination clinic for the wealthy.
Yet he holds himself up as an exemplary Christian family man who receives God’s Blessing. I call BS.
I feel sorry for church employees….
This is a fascinating issue to me. We currently have a case in front of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. During the Catholic Church Child Sexual Abuse scandal and follow-up lawsuits, the Catholic church claimed that many of its schools, charities, bishops’ homes, etc, were independent institutions and should not be considered assets that abuse victims can seize.
Now, they are turning around and claiming the church fully controls those same assets and that employees should receive the tax benefits of working for a church.
It sounds like someone “wants to have their cake and eat it too.”
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
“gatekeepers for the inerrant truth of an inscrutable ancient library promising eternal life based on paid membership in the correct cult?”
+++++++++++++++
wow – what a way to say it…. yes, that seems to be what it comes down to.
so many unwritten, unspoken doctrines justify what you wrote (that many christians would protest and say “we don’t belive that!)
but they do. they don’t seem to realize how they say one thing, but then say or do something that totally negates it.
for example, when asked ‘do you have to go to church to get to heaven?’ they’d say a clear no.
but if i had a dollar for every time someone gave me that deeply concerned, scared look when the fact i don’t go to church is the context, well,…
their communication conveys i’m a dangerous enemy who is suspect, untrustworthy, someone to steer clear of and greatly pity for how lost I am.
relatives are fearful and pray that I and other cousins ‘will come back to the Lord.’
all because we don’t attend and the lingo and facial expressions have processed out of us. and because we vote differently.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes Max has taught us what happens when the potato gets too hot to handle. But this is a different level. When it comes to messing with the tribe itself, it seems the wheels of justice turn much faster. This also serves as an example to others who may step out of line.
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Kind of like how the Russian Commissars would shoot their own Russian troops for retreating on the Eastern Front in 1941. There is a scene from the movie “Enemy at the Gates” that illustrates this perfectly.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Maybe that is how we need to view these dudebro groups. As either a Mafia crime family or a cult/party of personality like Stalinist Russia or maybe both. And treat them as such and respond accordingly.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mr. Buice is most likely already on the NeoCal shun list – to be avoided, ignored and rejected by the tribe.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
He’s fortunate that he didn’t live in Calvin’s Geneva – it would have been far worse for him.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hood Rich.
(Bling-Bling!)
“PRESTIGE is the thing
That keeps you in silk
Though your children have no milk…”
— Song fragment from a Fifties musical about the Pied Piper
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“And gone!”
— Mel Brooks, “History of the World, Part One”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Decisions weren’t made by Calvin but by Genevan courts who were independent. (They often ignored him)
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, Calvin and his ties to the courts were known as Magisterial Reformers.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Does it seem like The American Sanhedrin worships their false theology? The way Adrian Rogers talked about his LOVE FOR JESUS is foreign to them. How can you become like Jesus if you’re not focused on Him? This would explain their fruit.
Mark Scheiderer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mark Scheiderer,
“Does it seem like The American Sanhedrin worships their false theology?”
+++++++++++++++++++
worships their ingrown convoluted belief system, i’d say.
——-
“How can you become like Jesus if you’re not focused on Him?”
++++++++
i’d also say, there’s a bit too much magic / magical thinking here.
seems to me magical thinking ironically is what foments people into being afraid of people who are different, who are outside the approved group. the logical continuum is rejecting their dignity on down to killing them.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
!@
Some of us fit the meme, some of us defy the meme . . .
At least Mr Buice is rubbing it in their faces / rubbing their faces in it! Maybe trying to be a bit like Kierkegaard!
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I have Obamacare (ACA). It’s managed care and coverage is limited to local in network providers. I don’t see how Voddie, based in Africa and traveling widely, could’ve used Obamacare to cover the possibility he would need emergency surgery on a trip to California. Now he’s back in Florida teaching in a seminary, so I hope he has employer coverage, or ACA as a last resort.
Anon(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I was wondering why so much was being made of this “scandal”. Had Buice only done it to a church member, unlikely investigative and punitive measures would have been taken. People might use anonymous handles online for all sorts of reasons. I didn’t know it was THAT big of a deal, really.
Heather(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
People have written books and newspaper articles using pseudonyms. Since when did this become such a big deal?
It appears the real problem here is Buice wrote about powerful people in his circle; had he written about an exchurch member, or someone from a different type of church or ideological opponent, he likely wouldn’t be in trouble at all
Heather(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)