The Church has been pushing female submission for how long now? Has it led to anything but disaster in these situations?

Sunlight Disinfectant:
The Church has been pushing female submission for how long now? Has it led to anything but disaster in these situations?

At which point, They Who Can Do No Wrong can only Double Down and SCREAM LOUDER!

“When all you have is a hammer, everything else looks like a nail.’
“If at first you don’t succeed, GET A BIGGER HAMMER!”

Headless Unicorn Guy: Ever notice it’s only those already in Power who preach Sobmission?
To Their INFERIORS.

I heard one clever soul say that they should rename their religion to ‘Chrislam’.

Erp,

If you’re interested in the background to these quotations you can read about the early Quaker prophetesses in this article from George Fox University – not an unbiased source, admittedly, but very interesting.

https://digitalcommons.georgefox.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1158&context=quakerstudies

Lowlandseer,

He does go on to qualify this statement by saying that there’s nothing to worry about so long as we have the Holy Spirit -“ Apart from the work of God’s Spirit in the heart, a godly use of authority will almost always feel like authoritarianism”

Leeman, Jonathan. 2010. The Church and the Surprising Offense of God’s Love: Reintroducing the Doctrines of Church Membership and Discipline. 9Marks. Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

I think that an issue that is often left out in simplistic characterizations of “leadership” and “authority” (and I think that Leeman’s is simplistic) is the question of “trust” and “trustworthiness”.

It would not surprise me if a child whose parent physically attacked her in response to disobedience or intransigence did not have a great deal of trust in that parent’s good will.

Trust, once lost, is not easily regained, nor should it be.

The “teaching” on authority to which I have been exposed basically asserts that one is obligated to trust and obey individuals who occupy positions of authority, regardless of whether they are trustworthy or their commands are wise. If they are sinning in the way they lead, they will (later) give account to God; your obligation (to God!) is to obey now, even if you think that is not wise.

This strikes me as cult-like.

Trust and authority in the church should, IMO, be earned, not ascribed on the basis of a person’s position. It seems to me that what evidence we have in Paul’s letters suggests that trustworthiness is a pre-condition for appointment to church office. We don’t know all the ins and outs of why Paul thought this important, but it might be in part that he wanted the churches he founded to be led by people who were trusted by the congregation. Sheep follow their shepherd not because “he’s the shepherd”, but because they know and trust him.

I think that’s a very different vision of leadership than the (IMO) “dumbed-down” version of “obey because of the leader’s position of authority” that seems to be widespread.

1st…. need more information.

We had an incident in my little town that made national news and even when presented with video evidence that said teen was not violently abused… it has continued to be a national outcry against bullying.

In this case. The teen confessed that IN FACT she was the bully.

I’m reminded of the meme
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
REMIND HIM THAT FLIPPING OVER TABLES AND CHASING PEOPLE WITH A WHIP IS WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITIES

What did the teen do
Why did mom do
What information are we missing?

Mom?
Child?
Was there love? Or abuse?

Abuse is very real
Teens abuse moms

What information has been left out?

Erp,

That’s the way I read Scripture. Teaching which shouts “Woman, sit down, shut up, submit!” springs from the flesh not the Spirit.

Samuel Conner: This strikes me as cult-like.

Anyone who has been following the New Calvinist movement closely, particularly the 9Marx fringe of it, would shout a hearty “AMEN!”

Muff Potter: I heard one clever soul say that they should rename their religion to ‘Chrislam’.

Well, they do say that Calvin Islamized the Reformation.

The portrait of God as Omnipotent POWER and POWER alone (Rewarding and Smiting on a WHim like the Old Gods), the obsession with Predestination to the point of Socratic Atheism (if God does only what He is Predestined to do, God is not God, Predestination is), the blind quoting of the Holy Book, the gender pecking order, the dream of return to a Godly Golden Age — lotsa similarities.

i would expect similarities, given both emphasize God’s Omnipotent Will and Predestination Uber Alles. And I would expect similar fruits from Calvinism and Islam. Especially when you add Political Power to build a Godly Christian Nation/Islamic Republic that is God’s Perfect Perfection. (Whether Geneva, Massachusetts Bay, Iran, Talibanistan, or a Republic of Gilead.)

(And so far the Calvinistas don’t seem to be as into the Seven Mountains Mandate climb to Political Power as say the Fundagelicals or NAR-level Charismatics.)

With the Similarities will come similar Side Effects.
By their Fruit shall you know them.

Samuel Conner: I think that’s a very different vision of leadership than the (IMO) “dumbed-down” version of “obey because of the leader’s position of authority” that seems to be widespread.

There’s a German word for that, from some 90 years ago:
FUEHRERPRINZIP.

elastigirl,

more context: I had learned from brief conversations with the dad that he had been a music major, because his father required it of him.

he had wanted to study something else. he ended up pursuing another career path.

he had hated it, and seem to deeply resent how this had worked out for him.

it struck me that his refusal to accommodate me in leaving my house when the event was over was his way of fighting back at a life of having to submit to the will, wishes, and whims of people wielding a stick (so to speak).

(sorry for the alliteration).

i found it so incredibly pathetic and sad.

(and frustrating for others, like me, impeding the efforts of others).

I’m not into all the submission stuff, but I think maybe you’re being a bit hard on him. He wasn’t addressing the abuse and simply mentioned it in passing as part of the story. In context his point seems to be, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander and if there must be submission then nobody gets a pass. He’s preaching against the hypocrisy of an unsubmissive authority. It seems like a valid point to me.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Well, they do say that Calvin Islamized the Reformation.

In Arabic (and other Semitic languages), most to all nouns have a three-consonant root. Words are formed by adding different vowels in different places, but all with the same three-consonant root have related meanings.

Relevant Example: The word for Peace (“Salaam”) has the same “SLM” root as Sumbission (“Islam”), hence Peace and Submission are related. Is this relationship as close and/or blunt as “Peace is when the Weak Submit to the Strong”?

Headless Unicorn Guy: as into the Seven Mountains Mandate

I’m astounded you put it like this because it is so given, they don’t “need” to talk “about” it any more. I’m saying this because it is an outgrowth of the materialist (but often “nice”) “alright in the skyism” (religious manoeuvring) of the 1960s-1980s. That was the external movement; now the overt “new reformed” ideas are the internal firming-up phase (now that more of the public have forgotten what culture was).

Cessationists are just as much new-apostolic as the false charismatics are; up to now the latter would subtly sabotage Holy Spirit in you & me – by pretend incompetency, or a learned inadvertent imitation of it. Neither identical variant are convinced in their own minds to admit they are not convinced in their own minds. They subliminally know they don’t need to be trusted.

Christie24,

New Reformed lionising of (say) Lloyd-Jones or Dallas Willard is hypocritical. For the real God, prayer is His power sharing arrangement, and its outcomes are unpredictable. Since when have the Wheaton element (whose products were sold in my local hospital foyer a lot more recently than 2010) been teaching us to give power AWAY from them?

Headless Unicorn Guy: Lowlandseer: … get inside people’s heads and change the very way they think, calling submission to their doctrine “freedom.”

… Christian Fellowships(TM) in my past that messed me up.
To the point where for years afterward I couldn’t hear

Some charismatic-evangelical operatives impose a strange moral category of “freedom in worship”. Namely, non-spontaneous, stereotyped hand waving.

The last time I looked at my non-tampered-with Bible however, the worship of God was to not stunt the growth of our fellow adopted orphans in Father’s firm (Proverbs 21: 10-31 and the feedings of the thousands), laying down treasure in each other’s souls by exchanging spiritual gifts (outside church ceremonies) unvetoed.

Is the Leeman gambit because he fell victim to the sort of model you describe (meme of behaviour), or calculatedly wishes his mass video audience to?

Mark Dever spiritually abused Jonathan Leeman when Leeman was an immature Christian attending CHBC. Dever was going to lose a church vote, so he told the congregation that he was appointed by God and that they needed to submit to his authority. Dever is unqualified to be a pastor. He himself admits to a lack of empathy, and that he is miscast as a pastor. He did not want to become a pastor, but was talked into applying for the CHBC job by Carl Henry.

For years, Mark Dever has held “Weekender” training camps at his DC church for aspiring 9Marksists. Each man is sent home with a thick tactical ‘Notebook’. Among other things, it describes how, early in his pastorate Dever got the congregation to submit to his choice of elders, after every one of the five men he’d selected lost in a congregational vote [two were Leeman and Menikoff].

Check out lowlights from his letter to congregants that’s included in the 9Marks Weekender Notebook:

Mark Dever: “Is it arrogant of me to nominate the same five again?…I do not understand this to be a matter of arrogance, but of integrity.”

“Why vote on the same thing again?…Because we need elders…Because there must be a new election, therefore men must again be nominated. But the one [me] who must nominate has not changed…God has led me again to the same people.”

“We must let leaders [me] lead…When I was a member at Eden [Roy Clements’ church, Cambridge, England], I voted with the eldership, unless I had expressly biblical reasons for not doing so.”

“I have certainly been frustrated by not being more trusted”

“Each member of the church should consider if they are making it easier or harder for the staff to do what God has called them here to do.”

“Me leaving…find another pastor…[This is] a confidence vote on my pastorate.”

[insisted that members meet individually with him if they intend to vote “no” again]

Dever’s antics worked…he got his way:

The 9Marksist trainees are told in the notebook that, one month later “Elder nominations passed on second try”.

Jerome: Mark Dever has held “Weekender” training camps at his DC church for aspiring 9Marksists. Each man is sent home with a thick tactical ‘Notebook’

A New Calvinist “pastor” in my community tried to persuade the SBC church he had taken over (by stealth and deception) to change church governance from congregational policy to elder-rule. When the congregation voted “NO!”, he then recruited new members from another NeoCal church … took it to a second vote and won! The church split, with older members leaving to form another non-Calvinist church but leaving the church building and resources (they had paid for) in the hands of the young rebel new reformer. I wonder if that tactic is in Dever’s Notebook?

Max: A New Calvinist “pastor” in my community tried to persuade the SBC church he had taken over (by stealth and deception) to change church governance from congregational policy to elder-rule.When the congregation voted “NO!”, he then recruited new members from another NeoCal church … took it to a second vote and won!The church split, with older members leaving to form another non-Calvinist church but leaving the church building and resources (they had paid for) in the hands of the young rebel new reformer.I wonder if that tactic is in Dever’s Notebook?

My former church hired a couple of pastors who stole the church from right under our noses. The new guy has made plenty of changes to how things were done there, including instituting this whole “elder-led” thing. Trying to convey my reasons for leaving to the friends I have who still go there has proven to be mostly futile.

Arlo,

Not wishing to make light of any faith community hijacking. But it seems that these chaps who make claim that they have a monopoly on theology, should be renamed, Theo.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Let me guess: Leeman is ‘Uncle Joe’ Stalin and church elders are the KGB?

It also works with Leeman as Fuhrer and the ‘elders’ as Gestapo.

Arlo: Trying to convey my reasons for leaving to the friends I have who still go there has proven to be mostly futile.

The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.

Ian Docker: it seems that these chaps who make claim that they have a monopoly on theology, should be renamed, Theo

The New Calvinists truly believe that they alone hold truth … that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church.

None better than Al Mohler to articulate the new reformers’ Theo-mission:

“Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Al Mohler, 2010)

No other options?! 90% of Christendom worldwide who are non-Calvinist are wrong?! … the Gospel they preach to whosoever-will-may-come is not truth?! … the billions they spend to evangelize the nations in Jesus’ name is for nought?!

Or perhaps, Mr. Mohler and the Mohlerites are wrong and their mission will fizzle out: “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38-39)

Headless Unicorn Guy: The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.

That’s a very apt description, unfortunately. It’s been ages since I read through those books.

Max:
They trust the pulpit to do the right thing …

Which is a huge problem. People are placing blind faith in church leaders, without a clue as to what kind of person they truly are.

Ian Docker: Goodness me, presumption at best, arrogance at worst.

As has been noted on TWW before, “arrogance” is the overriding characteristic of New Calvinism … “love” is never used to describe these folks.

“You will know them by their love” (John 13)

Muff Potter,

Dobson describes how he beat a little dachshund into submission with a belt, and of course advocates the same treatment for ‘strong-willed’ kids:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/james-dobson-beat-your-do_b_5953878

Muff Potter:
Muff Potter,

Dobson describes how he beat a little dachshund into submission with a belt, and of course advocates the same treatment for ‘strong-willed’ kids:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/james-dobson-beat-your-do_b_5953878

It’s obvious that as far back as his first best-seller (The Strong-Willed Child), Dobson sees everything through the lens of Power Struggle and ONLY Power Struggle.

For under those rules there is only Dom or Sub, Top or Bottom, Alpha or Omega, Hold the Whip or Feel the Whip, my boot on your neck or your boot on mine.

“When you play the Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die. There is NO middle ground.”
— Queen Cersei Lannister

Jeffrey Chalmers: “servant leadership”… Philippians ch 2 comes to mind

That chapter speaks to the core of the problem with the New Calvinist leadership style, the lack of servant leadership. In verse 5, it states:

“In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus …”

How can religious leaders who speak very little of Him, who show little evidence that they know Him, have the same mindset as Jesus?

Max,

I wonder if there is any books, or video’s of this “crowd” attempting to deal with these types of verses?? Mr “deep throat” Driscol speaking on servent leadership??

Max,

Karma and her sister comeuppance will be paying Dobson a visit.

Leeman’s video was difficult to watch. Perhaps it is because I already knew what he was going to say, thanks to Todd’s set-up. Perhaps it is because I have a nearly visceral negative reaction to the 9Marks/YRR crowd. Perhaps it is both. Suffice it to say, Leeman should not be giving counsel (ironic) to pastors on how to handle such situations in the churches they serve. At least not the counsel like he gave.

Assuming the story is true – and that might be a bit of a leap – what parent has not struggled with their temper when a child shows complete and utter disrespect; how much more if that child’s behavior is a consistent pattern. We don’t know enough of the backstory to make an informed decision on patterns. However, the difference between a mature adult and an immature adult is the ability to NOT act on those feelings. Even then, we all have moments of weakness and sin, and none of us want to be remembered for our failures. The advice that should have been given was to refer the daughter, mother, and father (if present) to professional family therapy, not church leadership (which is code for discipline), and not biblical counseling. There are plenty of godly marriage and family therapists and licensed professional counselors to choose from, so finding a Christian counselor should not be too much trouble, especially because we know 9Marks churches are generally located in cities with an abundance of resources.

In one sense I do pity the mother. Without a doubt she knows she is now a sermon illustration, and even if the family situation has improved and is continuing to improve, she will bear the shame of guilt every time she hears a sermon that includes this word picture.

Burwell Stark: There are plenty of godly marriage and family therapists and licensed professional counselors to choose from, so finding a Christian counselor should not be too much trouble

Just steer away from ACBC-certified counselors!

Max,

PS..
I want to make clear I fall far short of being “Christ like”….. I take scriptural warnings about being a “Christian Leader” seriously…. And scripture does not have nice things to says about false teachers……
This is why I do not want to be a Christian leader, as well as being part of system that protects corrupt leaders….. sigh..

Jeffrey Chalmers: I take scriptural warnings about being a “Christian Leader” seriously…. And scripture does not have nice things to says about false teachers……
This is why I do not want to be a Christian leader, as well as being part of system that protects corrupt leaders

I’ve been doing church a LONG time. I’ve known both Christian leaders and CHRISTIAN leaders … those who went into ministry vs. those called into ministry … those who follow the flesh vs. led by the Spirit … those who profit vs. being prophet … the latter would never be included in the false teacher ranks. Unfortunately, most in the pew don’t have enough discernment to sort out who should be in the pulpit and who shouldn’t.

Max: And Dobson wondered why that poor little dog wanted to bite him?!

Hardness of Heart, of course.
Or SATAN entering into and Possessing the dog.

I keep saying that even in his first best-seller (The Strong-Willed Child), Dobson was viewing things through the lens of Power Struggle, of Domination and Submission. To the point of having to Dominate (with his belt) a ten-kilo family dog.

Ras al Ghul: Ever notice all these bullying and narcissistic Christian leaders are enamored with a similar person in the White House or in Russia or Hungary? But we can’t talk about politics

Final nail in the coffin of any Christian faith I had left.

Sandy,

Thank you for your comment, though this is not my blog to offer universal statements. That said, I categorically disagree with what you wrote. Paul wrote copiously about the resurrection and clearly expounded the same gospel that Jesus declared. In fact, there is great unity between all the NT authors because there is only One Spirit who animated each of them. I would humbly challenge you to revisit your understanding of the NT by asking for God’s wisdom and understanding, as revealed in 1 Corinthians 2.

Full disclosure: yes, I am Reformed. I get the accusation that Calvinists are hyper-Paul and I think there is too great a focus on Romans by some. However, the weakness of a few does not limit God or detract from the unity of His complete word. Of that I am certain.

Thank you for reading this in the spirit it is written. I wish you blessing on your Christian journey.

Burwell Stark: Thank you for reading this in the spirit it is written. I wish you blessing on your Christian journey.

Thank you for your comment and blessing!
May God’s love be with you!

Michael in UK: Carl Henry had no belief in Holy Spirit (was materialist)

Deliberate and persistent rejection of the Holy Spirit’s work is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit … the unforgivable sin referred to in Scripture (Mark 3:28-29 and Matthew 12:31-32). I hope his heart was not so hardened that he didn’t repent of this before he passed into eternity.

Max,

I’m digesting from what I read by CH, and about him. I understood he was close to both politics and media, and was into what we nowadays call “influencing”, a k a material dialectic, a tendency in which chiefs often undervalue the unvetoed intercessive effort of the many.

From inferring, I think Protestants should at least believe in purgatory (which has got nothing to do with exchanging amounts of money, or with tear-off calendars) (in any case future time will be slower, and we’ll notice more). It’s all a question of which questions we want to be asked when we get to the other side.

“Many will go to perdition” means more than one; “few will be saved” means fewer than everybody. Logic shows us how categorical that is, and it is bloodcurdling. Integrity which can be like precious metal that, after conversion, christians are called to lay down in each others’ souls by trading the gifts unvetoed, is what will get people through (say) a lake of fire (in the hypothesis that God foresaw it rather than just sadistically cooking it up) (my excellent new minister, preaching on James, called it “magnetism”).

Powers that be, who are preoccupied, will praise God that people like us asked Him to send good angels to jog their elbows (more) right. Or they will ask leaders, “we never knew you could have asked God to send good angels to jog our elbows (more) right when we were rushed off our feet with the world’s affairs”.

The religion chiefs were telling the secular heads something like, “go through our special evangelicalism hoops like we induced all the ordinary populace to, and you’ll be alright in the sky”: which may turn out a relatively hollow promise, but all the more severe for the religion bosses than for the secular figures whom they misled (even if the latter were seven times worse).

The real gospel and the real spiritual gifts for leading our Christian lives, are providential above all. That is why, first to quench, then to grieve, then to blaspheme, the (“non evangelism” i e “anti-evangelical”) gift in the many, is grave matter.

Why didn’t Dever disobey whoever was forcing him to take that job? St Paul and St James said we are to be convinced in our own mind (place good boundaries), not an equivocator (wrongly “dutiful”) (those mentioned in the Smith and Creed quotation the other week). The name Clements was mentioned to me over the years, but I can’t recall what was said about him.

Ras al Ghul: Ever notice all these bullying and narcissistic Christian leaders are enamored with a similar person in the White House or in Russia or Hungary? But we can’t talk about politics…

Christians LOVE Dictators.
Dictators who will let them sit as His Left and Right hand as part of His Inner Ring.
Same deal Patriarch Kyril has with Tsar Putin.
After all, isn’t God just the Ultimate Cosmic Dictator?

Headless Unicorn Guy,

and so they don’t have to think. the Dictator tells them what to think, what’s true, what they can and cannot do.

faith is not in God so much as it’s in the party line of what their influencers tell them.

i can’t help but do a silent chuckle at the amazing irony of it all.

Ras al Ghul: Speaking of His Left and Right Hand, here is a gem from the Babylon Bee (before it jumped the shark):

https://babylonbee.com/news/falwell-jeffress-ask-trump-if-they-can-sit-at-his-right-hand-when-he-goes-into-glory

With Falwell & Jeffress (especially Jeffress), you sure that wasn’t a Documentary?

Jonathan Leeman’s Advice – Submit!

Because Blessed is He Who Holds the Whip.

(Sounds like something you’d expect from The Gospel According to Warhammer 40K…)