This sort of thinking was exhibited by Francis Chan, who left his megachurch to go into the world and care for the “ultra-poor.” He came back claiming all the miracles that he had encountered. He gave no proof, of course.

Remember Bethel Redding’s Dead Raising Team, with their “DEAD RAISING TEAM” T-shirts and bodybuuilder Pecs & Abs? Same thing – Dead Being Raised and other Mighty Miracles happening way off on the other side of the world, i.e ONLY where they couldn’t be verified or checked on.

Isn’t Mr Lindell the man who let in the dog (by platforming an infamous bad-boy preacher formerly from Seattle) and was surprised to wake up with fleas called a “Jezebel spirit”?

Isn’t Mr Lindell the man who organizes multiday events with monster trucks and mostly nude sword swallowers to make a bunch of small men feel strong?

Isn’t Mr Chan the man who did everything to join the foundering ship of GfA (Gospel for Asia), when it was reeling under the weight of evidence of inappropriately using donations for purposes other than the donors’ intentions and and having volunteers illegally transport huge amounts of cash to India (as shown by Warren Throckmorton)?

What clowns! But dangerous clowns they are, nevertheless, to the naïve multitudes.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Paranormal Events are analogous to rare natural phenomena (like sundogs, which I have also seen only two or three times

Curiously, sundogs are part of a common class of solar refractions called parahelia. “Para” can mean “beside or near” as well as “beyond.” Thus “paranormal” can imply “adjacent to normal.” I like to think that we are all paranormal.

Sundogs can be quite common if you bother to squint and hunt for them near-ish to the sun. I find them to be thrilling and beautiful. They come in many shapes and flavors. Some are winged. Some are halos. Sundogs are the original angels. Most people just don’t bother to look. To most people they are invisible.

A pious Christian friend was regaling me with tales of divine miracles he had witnessed —which I could see are all actually paranormal, in the above sense. “It was a beautiful sunny day and out of nowhere a rainbow appeared above our church! Praise god!” Yup.

I’m a nobody who works in a remote place in East Asia but here’s my experience for what it’s worth.

In decades overseas I’ve prayed for thousands of people. Only twice was someone miraculously healed and that over a period of two weeks following my prayer with them. I never told anyone later, “I healed that person.”

In the past five years in my ministry network we’ve seen something like five people healed. All in remote previously unchurched areas among new believers. All in answer to the prayers of non clergy newer believers. All involving chronic diseases/Illnesses which multiple doctors were unable to treat. And all over a period of weeks or months after the initial prayer. We and our colleagues have interviewed four of these folks and recorded their testimonies on video with before and after corroboration from relatives/friends. I believe they experienced Gods healing in their lives including stuff like complete recovery from death bed diabetes and healing from an infection that was slowly eating the man’s flesh.

All of this is believable to me in part because none of it was done on a stage in front of an audience. And no one person figures into all the healings.

Does God heal people? My conclusion after decades of full time ministry is RARELY and usually with seekers or new believers. So yeah, color me doubtful about new toes.

“I believe the Assemblies of God (AOG) should have stopped this pastor”

AOG and SBC operate similarly. Local churches, like James River, generally enjoy a high degree of autonomy. Unless they wander too far from denominational statements of faith, AOG and SBC churches can pretty well do what they please.

And then there’s also the matter of annual financial contributions by AOG & SBC member churches to the denomination. James River is(was) one of the largest AOG churches in America. Remember when Saddleback Church, the largest SBC church (famous pastor Rick Warren) wandered from the SBC fold for having women pastors? SBC finally stepped up to that, rebuking Warren and Saddleback, who subsequently removed from “friendly cooperation” with SBC. As I understand it, Lindell and James River have not yet severed financial support of AOG in its recent dis-affiliation with the denomination.

The inerrant and infallible Bible is replete with talking animals, flying people, healings and smitings.

Much of the 20th century christianity I was raised in was more heavily influenced by the enlightenment.

In the Pentecostal church I used to attend regularly received updates from a missionary who was raising the dead in India.

It’s grifting that goes back to the source material.

No surprises here.

Jerome: “Platt said that though they do not have medical evidence to verify the account of the man’s death and resurrection …”

Even though they might not get cell phone reception in those remote places, the video feature on missionary phones still work.

I was in a motorcycle accident, with head injuries (contusion at brainstem). many people were praying for me. when my aunt (a nurse) would pray for me, she kept getting an image of an aneurysm, and would pray against it. some weeks after the accident the pain was unbearable; had a ct scan at that time; it was worrying enough that i got into the top university hospital the next day for a more indepth scan.

the neurosurgeon discussed the results a few hours later and was bewildered. she said the worrying thing was gone – she said “it’s serendipity.”

i was so debilitated this is all i remember. my parents were so exhausted and worried they didn’t have the presence of mind to fill in any more detail. they may not have been able to take it all in.

all to say, it can hard to document miracles – the people involved are too exhausted and in pain (physically or emotionally).

However, the website has before-and-after photos,

Before and after photos…….. hmmmmmm?
Someone took before and after photos, yet no one thought to take photos during the growth…… No one thought to whip out a smart phone and record a video of the growth in progress!!?

For shame!

Sandy,

You do talk nonsense

“In many ways the eye of pure intention grows dim, because it is attracted to any delightful thing that it meets. Indeed, it is rare to find a person who is entirely free from all taint of self-seeking. The Jews of old, for example, came to Bethany to Martha and Mary, not for Jesus sake alone, but in order to see Lazarus.”
Thomas a Kempis

elastigirl: on the assumption that there is a loving all-powerful deity, would you agree with me that miracles whose purpose is solely based on compassion is reason enough for a miracle?

I’m not sure.
I don’t detect any deity that is “all powerful.”
I am more familiar with deities that are intermittently and imperfectly powerful, and intermittently loving.
Even so, yes, I concur, compassion is indeed reason enough for a miracle.
Maybe not in this particular case of missing toes, however.
If I’m a deity and not rescuing the altar boys, I’m not doing toes, either, I guess.

Arlo: NAR-type churches .. an increasing number of them are now ending up turning towards the Calvinists who are waiting to receive them with open arms.

“Charismatic” Calvinism appears to be the new thing. Driscoll started hanging out with pentecostals when he was booted from Mars Hill. James River Church (mentioned in this article) has had him “preach” there several times.

dee: Awesome comment!!

It’s from the Father Brown Mystery “The Miracle of Father Brown”, whose major plot point is (spoiler alert) a fake-miracle resurrection.

Other Fr Brown Mysteries are “Doom of the Darnaways” where Predesination/Determinism is a major plot point and “The Dagger with Wings” which includes a description of the perpetrator as “He was born with a gift, the gift of telling stories; and used that gift to deceive people with False Fact instead of entertaining them with True Fiction.”

Gus,

When I hear the name “Lindell”, the first thing that comes to mind is the My Pillow Guy.

Max: James River Church (mentioned in this article) has had him “preach” there several times.

I’d rather listen to Groucho Marx.

elastigirl,

You have a succinct way of putting things.
No endless line of dump trucks with words that do nothing but add more layers of paper and twine.
I like it.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Wasn’t GfA that guy from or in India who started his own Eastern-Rite Liturgical Church with himself as Pope or Patriarch or Grand Poohbah?

KP Johannan, who later “acquired” – to use a suitably neutral verb – the title “H.H. Moran Mor Athanasius Yohan I Metropolitan”, where “H.H.” stands for “His Holiness” (of course), and, per Warren Throckmorton,

Mor in Syriac is a title of Lordship or sainthood. Various eastern churches use Mor and/or Moran in titles of religious leaders and Believers’ Church has followed the pattern.

https://wthrockmorton.com/tag/moran-mor-athanasius-yohan-metropolitan/

Max: “Charismatic” Calvinism appears to be the new thing.

Calvinist Thugs with Dreams and Visions and Private Revelations and TONGUES TONGUES TONGUES.
“The fourth time GOD appeared to me in a dream He showed me a special room in Hell…”

Here in weirdo land where James River Church is the be all end all to emulate for many folks, it is truly insane.

At one point the church and the woman claimed there were before pictures of the missing toes but as part of a police report, later citing hipaa laws the woman claimed SHE HERSELF could not legally reveal them. Right. Um hum. Or as we say here, well bless her little heart.

Simony abound these days, folks, especially in the Bible belt.

Years ago I had a missionary friend (to a country in Africa not to be named due to security) tell me that yes, sometimes miracles occurred. But sometimes what happened was something like this: “The missionary brought my uncle back from the dead.” No, he performed cpr on your uncle. Or “God grew me a third set of teeth.” No, the dentist on a short term mission trip and the person who makes dentures who went with her made them a set of dentures. Or “The missionary put my mother in a trance and while she was in the trance he healed her vision. It is a miracle.” Well, I’ll attest it feels like a miracle but what she got was cataract surgery.

God does miracles–not often the spectacular ones in terms of visibility, but still daily. Daily sins are forgiven and people are restored. Daily people simply come into the presence of God. Daily children are conceived and born, and daily old people leave a world of toil and sin and enter into paradise.

Right now, miracles are very visible. We call them azaleas around here.

Headless Unicorn Guy: He was born with a gift, the gift of telling stories

As Max likes to put it — the gift of gab! I pretended to kiss the Blarney Stone (and documented this with a photo) and so I can only pretend to have the gift of gab.

Correction – in Acts 5 the angel did open the doors for the Apostles, but politely closed and locked them again behind himself.

Fisher:

Does God heal people?My conclusion after decades of full time ministry is RARELY and usually with seekers or new believers. So yeah, color me doubtful about new toes.

I do believe that God heals people. On the other hand, I’ve heard the stock “I had an odd lump that was diagnosed as cancer and to come back in a month to schedule surgery…but I stood on my faith and lo and behold when I went back for that follow-up the doctors could find no trace and they told me that it was a miracle…” story from three or four different preachers in the last year, more than enough to make one cynical.

elastigirl,

elatigirl, I have been in a situation similar to yours.
Long story….

Just a few days after my 18th birthday (1982), I was stopped at a stop sign and a man passed out at the wheel and slammed into the driver’s side of my car….. doing about 55 in a 35. My only injury, the left side of my skull was crushed….. an artery was ruptured and I had a bleeding lacerationin front of my ear. The surgeon that I would have bled to death in about 6 minutes….. but the accident happened about 50 yards from the ambulance service.

The EMT’s did not believe that I would live to make it to the nearest hospital – a 22 mile drive on what was then a 2 lane highway.
I made it, but the ER doc there told my dad that there were no doctors there who had the training for an injury as severe as mine. So, off we went to the next hospital – another 35 miles.
After surgery, I was in a coma. The doctor told my parents to go home and get some rest…. this was going to be a long haul…….. there was a good chance that I would be in a coma for the rest of my life.

I came out of the coma just a few minutes after my parents arrived back home.

The ICU nurses said that they heard me calling for a nurse. One asked me how I was feeling, and I told her that I had a terrible headache, and I asked her if she could get me 2 aspirin and a ride home. I was in a coma for 32 hours, and that is counting the 6 hours in surgery.

I spent a total of 10 days in the hospital. Six months later, I started college.
The only permanent damage : I’m deaf in my left ear, there’s a hole in my skull between the size of a quarter and a half dollar, and I have a few scars.

I can’t see how even I survived that, especially with a full recovery, without some quiet, divine intervention along the way.
I don’t think miracles happen very often, but I do believe in miracles….. and I don’t believe God gets his kicks being a showman or a theatric performer.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

thank you for sharing your story. i imagine it takes something out of you to go into.

my God is moved by compassion and gol’dang effin empathy.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I don’t think miracles happen very often, but I do believe in miracles….. and I don’t believe God gets his kicks being a showman or a theatric performer.

My sentiments exactly. Jesus often asked people not to publicize His miracles … that would have put him in the magician category and folks would come running for what He could do rather than for who He was.

I worry about what the good folks at James River may be exposed to down the road. Any church which would allow Driscoll, pole-swinging sword-swallowers, and Bill Johnson on stage might possibly be handling snakes someday.

Sandy,

I am uneasy about the so-called “CSLewis Institute” and similar corporations’ exaggerated cod theology. I agree genuine myth (coded history) was a great way of telling lots of things especially from a long time back. Since myth had meanings, sometimes God causes a (relative) miracle (but never for a preacher’s convenience) to allude to or resemble a previous myth or ambiguously described event.

Whatever befell Jonah was bad enough for his skin or portions of it, and it shocked Nineveh into repenting (about the time of infancy of Esarhaddon who charted a moderate change of political course). Moses being shown God’s back meant God meant to advertise His fruits when our lives are Holy Spirit filled, namely the virtues listed in Ex 33-34; posing as seeing His face as if He is their mascot has made some “christians” brain dead, dead in the water, etc.

I have no doubt that God can do miracles, but I find He usually uses human means (i.e. medical procedures), in most cases, often bathed in prayer. I’m the kid who was never supposed to walk (no hip socket and not detected until I was 16 months old). The doctors tried everything except surgery as they were afraid of infection. My parents moved to another city and took me to the local university hospital. There was a young resident quite interested in my case (I know God brought him to my parents), and he had an idea. The idea worked (first surgery in 1960, then ’67, ’74, ’75, and ’76-my first total hip replacement). Yes, it was lots of surgery. Yes, it wasn’t cool walking with a cane after the surgery in ’67, but it sure beat not walking at all. The hip replacement was amazing. It wore out in 2002, and I had another one-equally amazing although now I’m using a walker (a four-wheeled one). I may need another replacement. I’ll having an x-ray soon, but I’ve been able to walk and have a life. Jesus met me along the way, an even bigger miracle as my family is quite secular. Miracles aren’t always instant healing, but a life of learning to trust God in all of the crazy circumstances we encounter.

LInn: Miracles aren’t always instant healing, but a life of learning to trust God in all of the crazy circumstances we encounter.

Amen and Amen!

elastigirl: …but frankly my God behaves apathetic too much of the time. i see no reason to accept that with praise or anything other than some form of anger and some form of peace that don’t cancel each other out.

I pretty much believe the same way.

elastigirl:
elastigirl,

…but frankly my God behaves apathetic too much of the time.i see no reason to accept that with praise or anything other than some form of anger and some form of peace that don’t cancel each other out.

A chunk of the Psalms show the same attitude and turmoil.

Michael in UK: exaggerated cod theology.

Sounds fishy.

elastigirl,

I always loved the fact that the cookie-cutters were diverse too, even though they didn’t. True love = true grief.

Allusions from Greyson Chance (honest agnostic):

What’s in you is out there (from Waiting outside the lines)
Sunshine (nature) and city lights (spiritual values) will guide you
Hold on till the night (when we’ll need to remember what holding on was, and see that miracles never ceased; until which, faith is not blind)

C S Peirce (founder of pragmaticism) held that true norms become apparent through life and not mechanistically.

elastigirl: I agree God doesn’t fix us – I do think God helps us grow in good and positive directions of self-love and love for others – which in turn nurtures things like self-confidence, courage, & other things that enable us to navigate the stuff of life.

So like happiness, “fixing” doesn’t come by aiming directly for it, but as a side effect of something else?

Headless Unicorn Guy,

hmmm… perhaps ‘fixing’ isn’t what happens to anyone anywhere anytime. Maybe it just comes down to boring common sense – if you want x, do y:

muscle?——lift weights

discipline?–put accountability in your life (I hire entire schools for this purpose)

friends?—–take some social risks & do one’s best with giving & receiving friendship (it’s a given there will be continued learning as people are complex)

peace? meditation, prayer, cultivating gratitude, a counselor…

self-confidence? small goals to achieve in whatever category we don’t feel confident, then gradually bigger ones

perhaps you’re like me – i died in the fires of humiliation years ago. nothing can touch me now. the world’s my oyster!