“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;”
Last evening I attended the Maundy Thursday service at my church. As I contemplated the Last Supper, I thought about Jesus’ sacrifice that would change everything. I believe that Jesus uses both men and women to accomplish His purposes in our lives. I get passion. The molestation of many boys in my Reformed SBC church by an SEBTS seminary student, along with what I believe to be a poor response of the pastors, caused something to well up inside me. I knew this sort of thing should not happen in the church. It has stayed with me for over 17 years and takes up more than 40 hours of my life.
When I first read the documents about Carlota Allen’s story, I thought, “Whoa, she’s agitated.” Her passion for the pain some women bore in her church was evident. I realized she was like me, and I began understanding her story. As she confronted what she perceived to be the physical abuse of one woman, the plight of another woman whose husband was a probable alcoholic, and a third woman who claimed abuse, she wanted the church to act. She also assumed that the church leaders would act as she confronted them. She alleges that they did not. I use the word “allege” for the church lawyers who most likely will read this post. However, I hasten to add that I believe her story because I can read correspondence from the Session.
Carlota attended New Covenant Church in Joliet, Illinois. Her primary interactions were with Brice Hollister, Alan Strange, and Marcus Meninger. Dr. Meninger and Dr. Strange are professors at Mid-America Reformed Seminary, and Dr. Strange is the current interim president. The church is small. Carlota estimates attendance at the church is around 150 souls.
The OPC and the problem with women
My heart sank when she told me she was in an Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC). I knew her concern was for the welfare of women and the seemingly lack of concern of the elders regarding the continued membership status of men who caused pain in their marriages. Sadly, in my opinion, the OPC has a concerning reputation when it comes to the treatment of women.
Presbyterian Advocacy Coalition posted Why Women Don’t Win Abuse Cases in Presbyterian Churches.
Still uncertain, I researched some cases that had previously come before the General Assembly. I discovered a surprising lack of cases brought by women. I pointed that out to the pastor, and even sent a question about it to someone in leadership at Willow Grove, but they shrugged it off. Perhaps women were just likely to have their concerns handled at the local level, they suggested—perhaps women were so well treated that they never felt a need to take their complaints to a higher church court.
The uneasiness in the back of my mind persisted, but I decided I was just overreacting. After all, the Book of Church Order allowed for a complaint system—surely that was enough. I joined the church.
Twenty years later, I recognize that uneasiness as a gut reaction to a number of red flags about my now-former pastor. Indeed, even at the time he was explaining to me how safe the church was for women, he was excommunicating another woman for separating from her abusive, unfaithful husband. Some years later, he refused to allow me to separate from my abusive, unfaithful husband as well, even after my then-husband admitted his infidelity in writing. When I fled to another church, the pastor pursued me with demands that I participate in an ecclesiastical trial. I knew that refusing would mean ex-communication for insubordination.
And when finally, after years of struggle, I joined with several other women to bring charges against this pastor, I found out exactly why women seldom bring abuse cases in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. The ecclesiastical trial process set out in the Book of Church Order is a horrific, unwieldy monster that favors men (especially church leaders) at every turn and renders women almost completely voiceless.
In 2015, I posted Women and The Disabled on Trial in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church: No, They Don’t Get It!
Explosions over Hobb’s report
Readers of this blog, take a minute and think. What do you predict the true believers will say? It turns out that their responses include banal and hackneyed words used by boring authority junkies in all types of churches. The OPC appears to be just another same old, same old…From Shootout in an OP Corral.
The public reception of Dr. Hobbs’s report hints at the reasons why her supporters suffuse such appreciation and admiration. Within twenty-four hours of publishing her piece, ministers, elders, and lay members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church have labeled Dr. Hobbs a slanderer, a gossip, biased, jaundiced, sensitive, and divisive. She has been accused of impugning motives, and she has been accused of evil report. One lay critic bizarrely accused her of being an academic.
Then there is the widely known, despicable(in my opinion) treatment of Aimee Byrd, who was a long-time member of the OPC. She wrote Leaving the OPC.
I have been documenting the public parts of this process on the denominational level, not the local, more personal level. The links are below. Because of this, other women who have suffered through abuse in the OPC began reaching out to me. Most of them never even had access to the system. Others were battered by it. Their stories are far worse than mine and most of them have not been heard. Some shared that they were experiencing healing from my writing, as it expressed the same patterns and actions that they encountered in seeking help. It helped to name it. To see that it isn’t them. And they were getting hopeful that something may be done about it. I carry these women and stories with me in my own writing.
My experience in trying to follow this through has made visible to me why I have been writing all along. I’ve been writing to prove my own existence, and that of my sex, as disciples in the church. Ones that think. And contribute theologically. And yet I still didn’t realize how bad it was. How pervasive the views of women’s’ inferiority and lust for men’s power are. The process in seeking help made me feel less like a part of the household of God, less like a sister in Christ, and less like a gift.
I knew that Carlota’s experience would be negative since she was a woman and she showed concern for women. And it was.
Women as prophets when it comes to the abuse of women in the church.
Things changed after the death and resurrection of Jesus. When he ascended, he sent back the Holy Spirit, and what was written in the book of Joel was now seen in the greater church. Women, as well as men, could prophesy. Acts 2:17 ESV:(quoting from Joel 2)
And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
A prophecy can be forth-telling, which is revealing the truth for now, or for-telling, which is telling something to happen in the future. William Wilberforce was a prophet of his day, fighting against the evils of slave labor, which many in the church quietly accepted. Those of us who expose abuse in the church are clearly speaking out against the broader church’s historical inability or refusal to deal with the issue of sexual abuse. Then some women point out the church’s failure to care for women who are caught in abusive marriages. The church’s inability to limit the harm that women have been forced to deal with in their marriages is evident to many, but especially to women.
I contend that Carlota’s passion is put there for a holy purpose. That does not mean she is perfect in her delivery. The reader has 16 years of my writing, which clearly shows my imperfections as I deal with abuse. When I first spoke out in the SBC church, pointing out the pastors’ ineffectiveness in carefully overseeing a monster disguised as an angel of light from SEBTS, I became the problem. My husband and I left that church and wandered for a few years, trying to find a church we could trust. And we did. Note to OPC: We were Christians during that time and fellowshipped with other Christians without membership in a church.
Carlota spoke out. The Session or the elders were not amused and appeared to criticise her style, seemingly overlooking the message. My church did the same with me. It is predictably disheartening when the church turns the tables and focuses on the bearers of bad news or revelations instead of the victims. The church missed the prophecy.
Carlota and her husband decided to leave the church, but the leaders would not let them quit.
I’m sure many of you will know where this is going. These OPC types sure know how to quote Scripture and church order. They remind me of the Pharisees, who loved their books of rules yet missed the Messiah walking among them. In other words, they missed the big picture. At the end of this post, I will include more of the letters from the Session and Carlota. I guarantee that the reader will find these fascinating. Rarely do these letters make it into the public eye.
Carlota asked to be removed from church membership when she saw that she could not possibly agree with these leaders. That, in itself, meant she would be condemned. Carlota loved the church and had been there for 10 years. She told me,
The church was my life.
She hoped she could attend the church without being recognized as a member. But that was not to be. She had to reconcile with them and act in a way they believed was Christian, which brings me to my question. Why won’t the church let someone go when it is obvious that an agreement cannot be reached?
She sent letters with her concerns, but did not want to meet with the men in person since she did not feel safe in their presence. Men must be made aware of the power dynamics that make it difficult for women to meet with pastors. She wrote:
In 2020, the session’s failure to act in accord with righteousness became increasingly apparent to me. It burdened me terribly and induced me to reach out to several pastors in the Midwest Presbytery for counsel, which resulted in my writing a lengthy communication to the session. In March 2022, I delivered two preliminary letters – one to Strange, and one to both Strange and Mininger. The next month, I wrote what I now call my “magnum opus,” a ten-page letter to the session wherein I laid out my concerns about their dismissiveness and mistreatment of women. In June 2022, they responded with an excoriating letter in which they asked me to “repent and repudiate” my criticisms and insisted I meet with them in person to discuss the letter, which I refused to do. It was unsafe and unwise to meet in person with these abusive, calculating men. I determined all communication was to be kept to writing.
Here she outlines how they tried to leave the church.
In October 2022, I requested erasure from membership. The session did not respond to my request for four months. I continued attending worship every Sunday in a state of high anxiety. Finally, after four months, they officially denied my request. My husband pulled two ruling elders and Associate Pastor Mininger aside individually to express his frustration with how they had been shamefully treating me.
In May 2023, the session sent me yet another email demanding my repentance. We attended our final worship service there on May 14, 2023, and were denied the right to say goodbye to those with whom we had had fellowship for 18 years.
In July 2023, I received a certified letter from the session, stating that they would be citing me for sins at their session meeting that month. I then submitted a second request to be removed from membership and left alone; they denied the request a second time. New Covenant engaged in illegal activity in their refusal to remove a member from its rolls. By law, organizations – including churches – are required to release individuals immediately who request resignation from membership. The session denied my moral, civil, and religious freedoms not only once, but twice.
The OPC church claimed that Erasure causes potential loss of salvation and access to the Lord’s Supper, so they refused to grant them the right to leave.
- One can’t commune with Christ outside of church membership.
- This may mean there is a problem with one’s salvation.
- One can’t participate in the Lord’s Supper.
Erasure from church membership is an act of discipline, as Book of Discipline V.2 notes, which is very serious and is to be counseled against and avoided whenever possible (BD V.2.a.(2)). It also has very significant consequences. Most particularly, mere erasure without transfer to another church leaves a person without any membership whatsoever within the visible church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and our Confession notes that outside the bounds of the church there is no ordinary possibility of a person’s having true communion with Christ and so being saved (WCF 25.2). In this way, the effects of erasure are similar to those of excommunication. In addition, a person who has repudiated their membership in the visible church is not a part of the church’s fellowship and so cannot be allowed to participate in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper with the rest of God’s people (Directory for Public Worship III.C.3). On top of that, erasure under the present circumstance of unresolved conflict between yourself and the Session would involve a serious disruption of both the peace and the unity of the church, which God designs for a “holy fellowship” and mutual service (WCF 26.2). Given the severity of these and other consequences of erasure, we strongly urge you to change your mindset about this topic and to retract your request for erasure. Erasure is not a true solution to any of the concerns either you or we have raised but would only make matters worse in a whole variety of ways.
To have a vibrant Christian life, one does not have to be a member of this little church or the OPC.
- Carlota is still a believer and ardently expressed that to me.
- One can be a Christian outside of that little church in Joliet.
- Many churches will allow outsiders to participate in the Lord’s Supper.
The church plays hardball, demands that she appear, and cites her for her actions.
First certified letter from session June 2023 citing me for sins (3)
Carlota and her husband play hardball and get a lawyer.
Guess who won?
Carlota Allen- Response from Church to Lawyer September 2023 (2)
If you read that letter, the Session (comprised of only a few men) goes out with a zinger.
the Session has determined not to continue this shepherding process any further but instead to bring your membership at New Covenant Community Church to anend by erasing your name from the church roll in accordance with Book of Discipline V.2.a.(2). This act of discipline is something that we greatly regret having to undertake
Carlota’s final words to her former church.
Session: You blew it. You could have learned.
There’s a commonly-used acronym, “DARVO,” which stands for “Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.” The session used DARVO tactics against me. In their eyes, they were the victims, and I was the offender who needed to be attacked and silenced. What was my offense? Telling the truth and exposing evil. I called men out on their abject failure to show love and compassion to women, and they responded by making me look like the problem. That is not shepherding. It is abuse. In fact, a woman in the congregation once complimented me, when speaking to Bruce Hollister, and shared with him how much I had ministered to her. His response? “Watch out for Carlota. She’s a meddler.”
My final words are to Bruce Hollister, Alan Strange, and Marcus Mininger. You men do not possess the “authority” over people you foolishly and arrogantly believe you have. You delude yourselves. Bruce, you said to me in an email, “Your request for erasure is a grave misstep and can bring you only greater grief, and that for a long time to come.” No, sir. Again, you delude yourself. In God’s mercy, my departure from New Covenant was the very instrument he used to deliver me from your clutches in order for me to enjoy the freedom in Christ that is mine. I have been learning of and resting increasingly in the Lord’s peace and serenity since my escape from your bondage and cruelty. A glorious journey of healing has begun, rather than the certain “grief” Bruce assured me I would suffer. Truly, I am closer than ever to my beloved Savior, Jesus Christ, who will never leave me nor forsake
My final words are this.
The OPC is developing quite a reputation. They could have handled this. Carlota spoke tough words. They should have pulled on their big boy pants and tried to understand what she was saying. Instead, they played a game,” Come to our court.” Why would she? She felt they weren’t safe. I don’t blame her. Those letters didn’t feel safe to me either. Sadly, I am hearing woman after woman express grave concerns about how men in the OPC perceive women. I was concerned when Carlota contacted me about an experience in the OPC. It turned out the way I thought. That should worry the men in charge. Only men are in charge, aren’t they? And they aren’t terribly perceptive, in my opinion.
Women, caveat emptor!
(I contacted the church and left a message offering to provide a statement. I have not heard back.)
Some further letters
New Covenant response to lawyer for my husband September 2023
Session response to my husband for erasure request July 2023
Carlota’s letter to session April 2022
I would not have come to their court either. Good for her! “Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.” John 8:36 even if some church doesn’t think you should be set free.
JJallday(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“The next month, I wrote what I now call my “magnum opus,” a ten-page letter to the session wherein I laid out my concerns about their dismissiveness and mistreatment of women. In June 2022, they responded with an excoriating letter in which they asked me to “repent and repudiate” my criticisms”
+++++++++++++++
well, for starters,
my, how these delicate, fragile porcelain teacup men dish it out but can’t take it.
how i’d love the opportunity to cut them down to size.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
There is nothing those guys hate worse than strong women.
Women who’ll take no $hit off of em’.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Those of us who expose abuse in the church are clearly speaking out against the broader church’s historical inability or refusal to deal with the issue of sexual abuse.”
If you want to learn more about the historical treatment of women in the Lutheran Church, there is an interesting story about Bernt and Oline Muus at https://www.mnopedia.org/event/muus-v-muus .
The recent translation of the book _Muus vs. Muus_ has been making the rounds. Bernt was a Lutheran bishop who co-founded St. Olaf College. Sadly, as concerned as he was for ‘his’ Church, he was equally unconcerned about the well-being of his wife and family.
Many of the issues in the book are the same ones facing women today. What does the Church say vs. what does civil society say? In this case, the Bishop didn’t think his wife needed rights; once married, a wife only had duties. Statutes of limitations. The Bishop stole his wife’s inheritance without telling her. Yet, when she realized what was happening and took action, statutes of limitations came into play. Jurisdictional issues: the wife inherited the money for her family in Norway, where women could inherit, while her husband, the Bishop, lived in Minnesota, where men control all marital property
To top it off. She was not allowed to attend or speak at most of her legal proceedings because women were not allowed in the courtroom.
I find it interesting that there is nothing new under the sun. People in power want to stay in control. They will do whatever is necessary to justify that power.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
“how i’d love the opportunity to cut them down to size.”
++++++++++
if this isn’t sweet & demure enough for gospel womanhood or any such biblical fiddlesticks,
consider me in the spirit of Jeremiah, Isaiah, or hell even Jesus of Nazareth.
elastgirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“and Dr. Strange is the current interim president”
By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!
(Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)
Jon Hendry(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
very interesting. and infuriating.
It mentioned,
“Oline faced the censure of church members. ….She argued that a wife did not owe blind obedience to her husband. She stated that if God had created women to be slaves, he would not have given them intellect and spiritual ability.”
i’m left boggling agape, what’s wrong with people??
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jon Hendry,
i had to look that one up. (wish i was more versed in comics – i love batman and wonder woman)
criminy-jim-jam, someone needs to start a comic series about church & chrisian culture. so many colorful villains. even more colorful heroines like dee. story-telling galore.
bring on the spandex, tights, boots (but no capes)
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
If you are interested in learning more about gender dynamics in the church, it is worth a read.
Misogyny has been around for as long as the church has been around. It has just been wrapped in layer after layer of Christianese to make it more palatable.
Love, honor, and obey were still commonly part of Lutheran marriage vows for a woman a decade ago. In 1999 (pre-pandemic), my church held 42 weddings. In 2024, there was only one.
I don’t know if it is just a trend toward event venues, or a conscious decision to make this ‘milestone event’ less religious.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“the Session has determined not to continue this shepherding process any further but instead to bring your membership at New Covenant Community Church to an end by erasing your name from the church roll in accordance with Book of Discipline V.2.a.(2). This act of discipline is something that we greatly regret having to undertake”
I understand this to mean, “We greatly regret having to let you leave this church of your own free will. You’re not supposed to be allowed to do that. We had hoped to continue hassling you indefinitely. Rats!!!”
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
If every single time a church tries to silence, set aside, denigrate, or otherwise show women they are “less than” the lofty male ALL THE WOMEN of that church rose, walked out, and never returned, this madness would end.
Just who do these dudes think founded most churches, support most churches financially, and quietly keep the dudes in business? Yup, the women.
Out in the Rockies the history was taught like this (yes the first nations were conveniently overlooked): first come the miners, the cattlemen, the sheep men, the stores and brothels and teamsters, etc. Then came the women with dancehalls, saloons, and brothels. But then came the ladies: the wives, the daughters, the sisters, the mothers. They brought with them law and order, cleanliness, schools, and churches. In short, civilization arrived when the ladies arrived. And it will vanish if the ladies ever leave.
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hoo boy! Where to begin…
So, the local group of gathered believers in Jesus actually is NOT “the flock of God” but the PROPERTY of the leadership in that local church. Said “leadership” then has authority over their coming and going, with whom they worship, even whether they are FREE to leave?!
Am I understanding this correctly?
That, folks, is a CULT, not a community of the redeemed, free in Christ, not subject to these arbitrary and outdated (1500s), CULTURALLY conditioned (European) rules and regulations.
Paul writes about how a “covenant” (marriage) is undone by the death of a spouse (in this case a husband); his point: “So, my brothers and sisters, YOU (‘brothers and sisters’) ALSO DIED to the law through the body of Messiah, that (y’all!) might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.” (Romans 7:1-4, I highlighted v. 4j.
I see NOTHING about “bearing fruit” for a pastor or elders or a denomination or John Calvin or Ulrich Zwingli or Calvinistas…
The OPC may have “orthodox” in their name, but they seem to have embraced “heterodoxy”, as their foundation is “solidly” constructed on the traditions of men (their rule of order sounds very 16th century, to me).
They bow at the feet of Calvin — a very, very flawed human — rather than Jesus, IMO.
40 years ago, as a young believer, I checked into Reformed Theology. It HAS an attraction, because it’s intellectually stimulating. But it lost its appeal to me the more I dove in — I have found that the TALMUD is also intellectually stimulating, even MORE so than Calvin’s Institutes — but my theology and PRAXIS (how that theology is worked out in everyday life) is based on the Scriptures understood in context, culture, and history, no matter how “appealing” an intellectually stimulating source may be to MY pride and arrogance.
And, because we ARE NOT living in the 16th century, the Holy Spirit must inform and guide us as we attempt to work-out this amazing, complex, beautiful life-in-Jesus with our brothers and sisters IN the community of faith.
Women AND men, don’t allow yourselves to be placed under a yoke that isn’t His (Matthew 11:28-30)
PapaB(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It is with no small irony that church courts, e.g. the aforementioned OPC court, resemble the infamous Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition.
(And Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!)
Burwell Stark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Multitudes have fallen victim to intellectually stimulating cultish indoctrination over the centuries. Unfortunately, intellect has nothing to do with being smart or possessing wisdom. Jesus warned 1st century believers not to forsake the commandments of God for the teachings and traditions of mere men. But, here we are in the 21st century doing just that! There are over 30,000 “Christian” denominations and organizations worldwide … which one has a corner on the truth? Many proclaim a gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel at all.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Heck, the New Calvinists will excommunicate after you’ve already left! Church leaders and members will shun you at Walmart for leaving their number. Doesn’t sound like Christianity to me.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The New Testament church embraced strong, spiritual, godly women. They were allowed to exercise their spiritual giftings within the Body of Christ. The New Calvinists subordinate and oppress female believers … it’s a form of hate, IMO.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Amazing that there are “Christian” leaders who don’t want you to know that!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
No, it doesn’t. It sounds like the people who were upset that Jesus was eating with tax collectors and sinners.
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Why has “Orthodox” come to mean controlling and mean-spirited?
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
“Misogyny has been around for as long as the church has been around. It has just been wrapped in layer after layer of Christianese to make it more palatable.”
+++++++++++++++
oh, yes, I’ve experienced the most insulting, dehumanizing things myself.
——–
“I don’t know if it is just a trend toward event venues, or a conscious decision to make this ‘milestone event’ less religious.”
+++++++++++++
as my kids’ peers are starting to get married, it seems the trend is a very short ceremony (5 minutes, no more than 10) and on to the reception, the party, to celebrate love, family, friendship & commitment.
i’ve long observed the concept of ‘wedding’ to be sort of like a magic spell conducted by a wizard in a dark suit & neat side-parted haircut.
i’ve marveled why commitment isn’t enough without the wizard involved.
maybe the trend is a love commitment (the point of marriage anyway), no religious manager required.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
“Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.”
“Amazing that there are “Christian” leaders who don’t want you to know that!”
+++++++++++++++++++
my read is it’s a threat to the pastor industry (job duties, relevance, power, revenue, symbiotic revenue streams amongst multiple entities….)
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mutton on the Hoof for whenever the Leadership gets an Appetite.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Isn’t that like the Restoration under Charles II digging up Cromwell’s corpse to behead it for Treason?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Calvin who wanted to be a priest but was forced into an unwanted Law degree and career by his father. (Probably because “That’s where the Money is.” Makes me wonder if like Aliester Crowley his adult life was one long “F!U!” to his upbringing.)
Calvin who suffered from chronic kidney stones (one of THE most painful medical conditions) at a time when the only painkiller was oral grain alcohol.
So is Marxism.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
doubleplusunperson.
Considering the Prophesying(TM) you see these days, I have very mixed feelings on the subject.
And from both personal experience and psych research, going DARVO is the most common identifying characteristic of Sociopaths. And Clergy is in the top five of careers with the highest percentage of Sociopaths.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, remarkably similar. The New Calvinists want to get one last chop at you, to make sure your name has been erased in Heaven because they say so.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They wouldn’t feel threatened about losing their job if they simply loved people as they ought. The best job security a pastor has is to actually be one.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I said yesterday that I was looking forward to today’s post about the OPC but I’m disappointed that it is a rehashing of a story that has been readily available online on other websites, including the person’s own, and that it has led to the predictable trashing of Calvin and all things Reformed.
The local OPC, in my view, acted fairly and impartially according to their principles, drawn from Scripture, in what appears to have been a vexing (if not vexatious) case. Their Book of Church Order lays out the principles and procedures to be followed quite clearly and the person concerned must have known this, given her enthusiastic pursuit of those she deemed to be “fallen” and requiring discipline.
May you all enjoy the blessings of Easter given by the Crucified and Risen Saviour.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Two of my adult daughters got married in bars – “A free venue is a free venue!” – and the third at the San Diego Courthouse.
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
Pink Floyd put it well.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Breathe
Breathe in the air
Don’t be afraid to care
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
To strip out the Christianese.
“The local OPC, in my view, acted fairly and impartially according to their principles”
We made some stuff up.
“drawn from Scripture”
We cherry-picked a few passages to prove what we made up in step one.
“In what appears to have been a vexing (if not vexatious) case.”
Aww shucks. Don’t ya see, in steps one and two, we showed that it was God’s will that a Godly man’s right to beat his wife… In fact, it is even necessary if they start getting lippy.
“Their Book of Church Order lays out the principles and procedures to be followed quite clearly.”
By gawd, we even wrote it down in a book… Shhh, scratch that… God told us to write to write it down in a book. So now it is God’s law.
“and the person concerned must have known this, given her enthusiastic pursuit of those she deemed to be “fallen” and requiring discipline.”
The darn fool knew ya get lippy, ya get hit. So it is her fault she got hit.
Check out https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/03/26/around-the-world-many-people-are-leaving-their-childhood-religions/pr_2025-03-26_international-religious-switching_0-05/
There is a reason, in the US, that for every person who becomes a Christian, six people leave.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
DSOM is quasi scriptural for me.
It just got in there and replicated.
It always seems to be playing in the distance.
Often overlaid with the Wizard of Oz, go figure.
We’re not in Kansas anymore. Are we.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
What the man in black, aka Dread Pirate Roberts, aka Westley the Farm Boy, said about Spaniards encapsulates my feelings about the OPC. I know too many, and as a result, I would not be comfortable in an OPC church. I say this as someone who leans traditional Reformed.
Burwell Stark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
Thank you for making me laugh tonight.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Burwell Stark,
You also made me laugh.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
From all of Scripture? I’m nnot so sure about that.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
I am so glad that I saw the letters from the Session dudes. Their words will stay with me as I go through the rest of my life avoiding the OPC and telling others, especially women, to do the same.
Sometimes things get rehashed because they are not settled. And it is so lovely to announce to those theodudes that Carlota is still a Christian and has been a Christian throughout the process. That, in itself, shows they don’t know what the heck they are talking about.
The boys are playing a game called “We are the ghostwriters for the Book of Life. If we say you ain’t saved, you’re going to hell, baby.” Isn’t that one reason Luther got upset with Tetzel, who was able to get people out of purgatory for some $$$?
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Me neither. Sixteen years of experience have taught me that those “meetings” are “beat down the sheep marathons.” There is nothing the “leaders of these groups like better than to throw their weight around and break the sheep.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I would love to hear from OPC leaders why I should tell anyone to attend an OPC church. I can’t think of one good reason at the moment but I’ll continue to sleep on it.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You (generic you) can make the Bible say just about anything you want it to.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In the Bible there is no such thing as The Rights of Man (Thomas Paine).
If anything, you (generic you) were at the whim and fancy of some earthly potentate or another, up to and including the big kahuna in the sky.
The notion of self-government did not appear until the thinkers of the enlightenment era.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I have also been following the parallels between corruption in the early 16th—late 15th-century Catholic church, as Luther wrote about, and trends in many ‘reformed/new-/trendy’ churches in the US.
In my opinion, in their zeal to reform (and make money), they are undoing many of the guardrails that both Catholic and traditional Protestant churches put in place to reduce corruption and abuse within their ranks.
It is interesting to consider how far things will go before the pendulum swings back.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It occurs to me to wonder whether it might be that one of the benefits the 2nd Century institutional church hierarchy saw in ridding the churches of the ministry of prophecy is that it would provide a way of working around the inconvenient precedent that the New Testament mentions that the important figure Philip had four daughters who were prophets.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Conspiracy theories aside….
I am going with the following: one easily identifiable group wanted power over another easily identifiable group, so they took it.
Religions value their traditions and historic texts so those behaviors were forever enshrined as law.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s hard to not intuit something of this character in the 2nd Century conflict between priests and prophets. Perhaps the gender issue was simply an unintended (but desirable from the perspective of those who prevailed) side effect.
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That’s why the “church” is cut up in a great multitude of pieces laying all over the place … separated by disagreements on what men say the Scripture says. Theologies of mere men divide rather than unite the children of God, a red flag that something is greatly amiss. The Body of Christ, which alone holds Truth, is getting increasingly difficult to find. The Dones have stepped away from the mess, waiting for the “church” to implode so that ‘the’ Church can rise from the ashes.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“You hypocrites, Isaiah described you beautifully when he wrote — ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’. You are so busy holding on to the traditions of men that you let go the commandment of God!” (Jesus, Mark 7:8)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Do not domineer [as arrogant, dictatorial, and overbearing persons] over those in your charge, but be examples (patterns and models of Christian living) to the flock (the congregation).” (1 Peter 5:3 AMPC)
Manipulation, intimidation, and domination are not fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
“the predictable trashing of Calvin and all things Reformed.”
As long as leaders in the church fail to call out the damaging practices and beliefs within their own group there will always be others who will step in to speak on behalf of those negatively affected. Minimizing what’s happened as “trashing” completely fails to address what has occurred. Engage with all the information that has been presented instead of claiming an attack on the group that you are predisposed towards.
“principles, drawn from Scripture”
If their procedures did indeed come from principles in the bible they would have shown a far greater amount of care and concern in addressing any report of wrongdoing that comes their way.
Arlo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They are today.
Right up there with Prophecies as weird-ass as you find in the National Enquirer.
All of them to the personal benefit and personal convenience of the Anointed or the Prophet.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You hath been Predestined to sniff out any hint of Blasphemy against Calvin.
Calvin whose disciples hath changed Christ into something resembling Al’lah.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Resulting in Romish Popery and the Real True Reformers effectively switching places over those 500 years.
Who was it that said that Christianity has a major shakeup every 500 years or so?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Tetzel was the Prosperity Gospel Televangelist of his day.
Just fork over the seed money and you get the hundredfold blessing.
In the Unseen World where you can’t check on it.
“When coin in Tetzel’s coffer rings…”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Was Montanus (and his Montanism of wild prophesying with End-of-the-World tie-ins) 2nd Century?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Remember the Gospel According to Hal Lindsay?
Where SCRIPTURE plainly states all the End Times Plagues are Global Thermonuclear War and the demon locust plague specifically are helicopter gunships with chemical-weapon stingers piloted by long-haired bearded Hippies?
I sure do.
Incidentally, here’s the original imagery from the original source, visualized as-is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=infyJGl_N0o
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders (non-believers)? Do you not judge those who are within the church [to protect the church as the situation requires]?” (1 Corinthians 5:12)
If ‘the’ Church (big “C”) does not judge what is going on within the church (little “c”), authoritarian pulpits will get away with anything (and have been!) The situation requires that the Body of Christ stand in the gap and point a finger in the face of illegitimate authority and send them packing before God will return to the house.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“His Name Does Not Appear, LORD!”
— Jack T Chick, Angel in charge of the Book of Life, Great White Throne Scene, This Was Your Life
What would God ever do without the YRR Disciples of Calvin to sit at His right and left hands to tell Him who is REALLY Saved and who ISN’T? (“Me Sheep! Him Goat! Her Goat! Them Goats!”)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And now for something completely different:
(Not The Larch)
I got this in my YouTube feed from the Sacred Algorithm. It includes a group (not the pancake restaurant chain I once worked for) in a backstory narrative that just kept getting Weirder and Weirder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwZ5P3fWSVA
As Scottish shock comic Count Dankula once said about Heaven’s Gate (the Bo-Peepers),
“Only two weeks in and things have already gone Mental.’
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastgirl,
You’re a girl after my own heart.
EW66(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
I agree. While there’s nothing funny about the damage these religious despots cause in the lives of sincere believers, there’s something healing about bringing the toxic behaviour into the light, and exposing it to the ridicule it deserves.
Maybe something in a similar style to Asterix and Obelix, where instead of being sent to subdue the people of Gaul, the upwardly mobile religious leader is tasked by his superiors with putting the flock in their place once and for all. But what should be a simple task proves to be anything but straightforward…
Christie24(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They are certain that they are correct and don’t see beyond their interpretation of Scripture which is often heavy on punishment and light on love.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Pharisees still abound in the “church.” That Jewish sect may no longer exist, but a pharisaical spirit among church leaders is still alive and well. You can recognize them by their authoritarian nature, arrogance, hypocrisy, and lack of compassion. Look closely, you’ll find them in denominational hierarchies, in pulpits, and lurking in the pew running things in secrecy.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Who was it that pointed out that love is nowhere to be seen when you look at stuff like the so-called 9 Marks Of A Healthy Church?
Arlo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And the personality traits that you’ve mentioned actually seem to be what so many in the church are attracted to. If Jesus walked the earth today a huge chunk of the church would want nothing to do with him.
Arlo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Remember the latest Theology that’s going viral:
“The SIN of Empathy”.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Tell Getafix to start mixing that potion of his.
A really BIG batch.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think Jesus already knows He’s not welcome in a huge chunk of the church. They are more comfortable with Barabbas … heck, they’ve even hired him as pastor in some places!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This morning, I woke up to two major news items:
1) Pope Francis died.
2) The Dow opened down 666 points.
The Rapture Ready 9any minute now) crowd’s going to go crazy over that twofer.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christie24,
i had to look that one up, too! dang, i have a lot of comic-catch-up to do.
i love it! so many possibilities. oh, it’s time for satire. sure wish christopher guest would do another film – this subject matter would write itself.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That would be me! So you see- all this slander and gossip against Calvanistas is just an attack of Satin, and it really is the season of the accuser of the brethren! (It’s 9 Marx, btw) I’ve also noticed that when these guys do their affirmations and denials, they never affirm that their god is, in any way shape or form, good, or deny that he’s evil.
“So the lies we told you were true, from a certain point of view.” OP-wan Cenopi
Satin(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So, on the membership status — why does it matter? Walk away from the sinning church and go to another one. Would anyone really want to formally ‘join’ another church with the promise of “here we go again”? Honestly, I don’t understand why the opinions of a group of sinners/Pharisees impacts a believer. Is there a real legal component to this? That you’d need an attorney?
DrJ(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
If the OPC, RCC, Church of England et al would abandon any and all “Lord’s Table”, “Communion”, “Ordinance” they could relinquish their hypocrisy and it would clear the consciences of another congregation welcoming refugees from distorting Jesus’ teaching (false ecumenism is the root of fundamentalism). I don’t think Jesus foresaw christians partaking in Jewish Communion much beyond (contingently) 130 AD (“don’t forsake gathering as some did” refers in this way to the period prior to that, I believe).
Those who can’t honour Holy Spirit in those smaller than themselves (the only “ordinance” of Jesus) go brain dead, dead in the water, dead hands, etc (I Cor 15). They are the ones who think they see the face of God (something beside the point as their idol), whereas in Exodus seeing His (the real God’s) back means seeing His moral fruits (pointed out by the philosopher Hermann Cohen in Religion Of Reason).
The rumour among ordinary catholics is that “communion” provides a raison d’etre for the continuance of the sacred mystique of the clergy class. It makes no sense to clamour for laity – or protestants and independents for that matter – to take over the same power to “confect” or to “admit” (respectively). Unfortunately a pope re-started the current mania for compulsory “communion”. Some politicians would have felt comfortable sitting out when half the non-sinning congregation did anyway.
Among some oriental churches it is held (I read once) that an inflated view of the status of “confectors” had taken hold well before Augustine, who however entrenched it because he couldn’t show Donatist clergy that re-ordaining them wouldn’t demean them (they should have jumped at having their dose doubled). Originally Jesus was keeping the bread and wine custom as a part of initiation (together with baptising and imparting) in which old stagers are meant to honour the newcomers.
I don’t interfere with anyone that holds to conventional views but I increasingly get pressured to assert my own reason for sitting out whatever denomination I’m attending. As a Roman child I always felt a personal blessing overflowed to me from seeing others partake (and reading about it in my little book) and in my protestant incarnations I got a blessing from something else if there wasn’t “communion”.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The only church a believer should belong to is the Body of Christ. As we’ve learned, not every church is ‘the’ Church. During my long journey as a Christian, I’ve found ‘the’ Church more often outside the church than inside it. You are free in Christ, no need to formally join a church – and you should NEVER sign a membership agreement (TWW has written much about that). As a believer, the only covenant that you need to enter into is the one written in red.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Yup..
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
DrJ,
Good point, DrJ, that you would wonder why an attorney was needed. It was to get the harassment from those men to stop
Carlota Allen(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
DrJ
Is there a real legal component to this?That you’d need an attorney?
Getting a lawyer was necessary to get their psychological torture via their certified letters to me in the mail to stop. Sad,but true…
Carlota Allen(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’m happy as a clam in my small Lutheran (ELCA) church.
The focal point is ancient Liturgy, a tame homily from the Pastor, Communion, and then coffee and donuts with great people.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
JUst as long as the donuts are the nice cake donuts and not Krispy Krack.
R’as al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s seems so obvious looking back. Why didn’t I just leave my church of 18 years sooner when it was clear how treacherous these men in leadership were? Tragically, I was deeply controlled by and in terror of them, and could not leave for that reason. Yes,that describes a cult,and I now believe my former church- New Covenant Community Church in Joliet, Illinois is just that-a cult
Carlota Allen(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Carlota Allen,
Unfortunately, your summation fits allot of peoples experiences at many different … “churches”..
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sometimes the only way to get them to stop is to ring in some Big Guns.
Big Guns that can threaten a Big-Ass Lawsuit.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Where Jesus wears a Punisher Skull T-shirt.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Chicago Rules.
They use a certified letter in the Name of GAWD, you use a C&D nastygram from a Big-Name Tort Lawyer.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
MANY stories of abuse in the OPC (including Aimee Byrd’s) are featured by reformed pastor Peter Bell. This podcast is worth a listen!
https://www.sonsofpatriarchy.com/
Rain Girl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Rain Girl,
I have been listening to their podcasts! Tremendous!
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Na na na na na na na na na…BAPTISTMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Michael Stidham(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)