reversing a longstanding trend of more women in the pews that narrowed in 2016,

Sunday morning, Feb. 21, 2016 I drove to church, walked into the church building, collected my personal belongs, walked back out, and drove home. I haven’t been back since….. with only two exceptions in 19 years: My nieces baptism in a Freewill Baptist Church, and a dinner for family and friends at an SBC church after my dad’s burial Feb. 1 of this year.

The reason I walked away??? Patriarchy. And it’s not just the younger women…. I am a Boomer, too, just barely. I was considering transferring back to another SBC church where I used to go, but they got a new pastor, and it was hello, patriarchy.
In hindsight, I know patriarchy had started slowly creeping in several years before that. I just couldn’t see it then because of other changes: new members, new pastors, new church, etc.

The fear of “Jezebel” leads men to avoid interacting with women.

I can promise you, Dee…. there are at least a few men in these churches who tremble in fear of crossing paths with a “Jael”.

I’m not sure, that in our present war-like time, there will be much enthusiasm anywhere for a gospel of peace.

“How blessed are the peacemakers” is not a saying for our age.

Perhaps it’s because of the self-described Christians preaching that empathy is a sin and essentially rejecting what Jesus taught.

I mean that’s just weird.

Jon Hendry,

well, at least even in recent times past, it was seen as a laudable thing, personally and corporately.

too many cultural warfare ‘nincompoops’ (not my 1st choice of words) who lost touch with the ability to reason.

Firstly, thank you for writing this. It can be challenging and potentially divisive to point out things that are not working within a close-knit community, such as a church. The bifurcation in our society tends to amplify the extremes while crowding out the voices in the middle saying, “Something is not working; how can we fix it?”

If anyone is interested in learning more about these trends, I recommend:
https://news.gallup.com/topic/religion.aspx
https://www.pewresearch.org/topic/religion/
https://www.prri.org/research-by-date/

They are reputable organizations that do social research on beliefs and behaviors. I highly respect that they openly share their findings, raw data, and methodology.

Social change is fascinating. As a society, we ebb and flow; sometimes, the church leads, and sometimes, it follows. It can be tricky to tease out what is happening. It can be even trickier to determine what the cause is and what the effect is when multiple things happen simultaneously.

In general, I find the ‘More Masculine Christianity’ extremely concerning. But interestingly, our current period is not unique. Throughout our history, we have had several swings.

In the 1940s, as men went to war, women worked outside the home, opened bank accounts, and gained personal independence. Men started returning; Some men and women wanted things to go back to normal…. women were quietly pushed back home under their husbands ‘care, while others chaffed at the loss of independence. Church attendance grew rapidly as people tried to figure out how they fit into a changing world.

After the social upheaval of the 60s and 70s, people were again looking for their place. In the 1980s, the Moral Majority held significant sway, pushing things rightward. Evangelicalism hit its peak attendance and influence.

Now, in the 2020s, I think we are currently experiencing a similar swing of the pendulum. I, somewhat cynically, call it the ‘Christian Industrial Complex’ movement. Many churches are cashing in on our anger and need to fit into the changing world.

I think the trend of women leaving the church that Dee observes is going to have a lasting impact. Dee also mentions the delay in marriage and starting families. A third critical data point is college attendance. Currently, 65% of girls 13-18 plan to attend college, while only 40% of boys of a similar age plan to attend.

This implies that an ever-increasing cohort of young women is stressing independence over traditional institutions and roles. At least among the young women I talk to, they feel strongly that they don’t want to be beholden to anyone: not financially, romantically, or spiritually.

On a positive note, no one is saying they want to be alone. They just want to set themselves up so that if and when the time is right, they can find partners, communities, and institutions that respect them.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): The reason I walked away??? Patriarchy.

Patriarchal authoritarian rule in SBC reached a whole new level when the New Calvinists rolled into town, but “sit down, shut up woman” started a long time before that.

Women have now become sensitized to the attitudes, language and behaviors of patriarchy and can pick up all the small signals more quickly. The Sunday lessons are read only by men? Bingo. The church bulletin lists an all-male leadership? Bingo. The sermons touch on complementarian themes? Bingo. Classes taught only by men? Bingo. The pastor waxes effusively over the husband and barely acknowledges the wife? Bingo. The single female is directed to a male-led “young adults group”? Bingo. All these clues are now available to the perceptive and intelligent woman who increasingly wonders if the Church will ever grant her the respect and opportunities that the secular world now offers in abundance. Many are concluding “no” and exiting their conservative churches. They don’t necessarily move to a more liberal church for a variety of cultural and theological reasons and are lost to institutional Christianity forever.

Christie24: don’t have the time or energy for all the drama created by easily offended men with such a fragile sense of masculinity

IMO, such churches attract weak little men who want to get back at women for not getting dates in high school, have a female boss at work, experienced a mama who was domineering, etc. “Church” gives them a platform to manipulate, intimidate, subordinate, and dominate in the name of Jesus … without Jesus being anywhere near the place.

So offering some anecdotal evidence from the patients I see in my psychotherapy practice:
– Women ARE much more skeptical of the church
– Women who cannot find a female “kindred spirit” in a church are more likely to stop attending
– Women are more distrustful of men in the church
– Single women are leaving the church in droves because church is oriented towards families and the old “singles class” is no longer meeting needs
– Women are leery of, afraid of, and just plain distrustful of men in leadership

elastigirl,

The famous quote often attributed to Mark Twain comes to mind, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

After reading the headline of this article, my immediate thought was, “Of course women are bailing; the present ‘arc’ of evangelicalism in the US is toward unbiblical patriarchy.”
The “possible reasons” given by Barna and Gloo (a new organization to me) made me groan, tbh.

What can be done?
The first thing (and possibly the “exegetical root” of the problem) is to re-read Genesis 1-3 with “ancient eyes” (Professor John Walton’s term); that means a lot of work has to be done to understand the culture and history and language being used. (It’s easier just to read it at a surface level in an English translation and come up with “interpretation” — but it’s a totally corrupted exercise because it’s not how the original audience would have understood the account being told.)

The “formation” accounts of Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:7, 22) are NOT creation accounts (Genesis 1 already has the creation of humanity, “So God CREATED humanity in His own image, in the image of God He CREATED them; Male and female He created them.” v. 27)
Different Hebrew verbs are used (“Bara” – create; “Yatzar” – form; “Banah” – build, construct). Again, reading through “ancient eyes”, Walton proposes that the “forming/building” accounts in Genesis 2 are Adam and Eve being “formed” for their PRIESTLY TASKS of “guarding and keeping” sacred space — EXACTLY what the priests were to do in the Temple.
Adam and Eve are “allies”, not enemies. Eve is a PARTNER in the priestly task of expanding sacred space (we would call it “God’s reign” perhaps).

All of the crap being thrown out there as “biblical” order, women subservient to men because they are women (complementarian patriarchy and misogyny) is the result of the fall, it’s NOT the way it’s supposed to be!
Jesus came to restore the true humanity of men AND women in New Creation, NOT to impose heavy burdens on one of the “allies” in the priestly work of “guarding and keeping” sacred space.

davewis,

“At least among the young women I talk to, they feel strongly that they don’t want to be beholden to anyone: not financially, romantically, or spiritually.”
+++++++++++++++

they are responsible adults.

there are no guarantees in life, certainly not the prospect or the longevity of marriage. i’ve made sure all my kids understand the value of personal responsibility – which includes remaining competitive in the job marketplace.

elastigirl:
I’ve made sure all my kids understand the value of personal responsibility – which includes remaining competitive in the job marketplace.

I agree. With my own girls, I have tried to TEACH them confidence, independence and resilience… while SHOWING them how a loving and respectful husband can add value to their lives by how I treat their mom.

++++

A fun irony is that another work for resilience is elasticity 🙂

Gus: – has a pastor and elders who think that the mere fact that they’re men entitles them to behave like a-holes

long, long ago on YouTube, I encountered a now-lost music video along the same lines. All I remember of it is two lines and the accompanying mash-up graphics:
“Jesus didn’t die so you could be an a-hole!”
(pic of Fred Phelps minion doing their thing)
“Jesus didn’t die you could Get Rich!”
(pic of either Jim & Tammy Bakker or Paul & Janet Crouch)

Headless Unicorn Guy: Which I have heard described as “A weak man’s idea of a Strong Man“.

Somewhat tangential, yet hopfully related…

I am fascinated by all the while collar men in my neighborhood who have recently purchased full-sized, fully loaded pickup trucks. They have lawn care services to do their lawns. Snow removal services to plow their driveways. Their wife calls a handyman whenever something needs fixing. But they now have a giant truck sitting in their driveway because it is too big to fit in the garage with all their other junk.

I am particularly interested to see what happened in five years as the weekly $100 trips to the gas station, 6-point turns to fit into a parking space, dings and rust spots, and several years of remaining payments dull the glow of their once shiny new vehicles.

Friend of Park Street Church: Not in a sarcastic manner, but when was there a “Christian era” in the United States?

Only in American mythology.

Stavros49,

I’d like add a few things to your “Bingo” list…..

Women not allowed to speak at business meetings…. Bingo.
Women not allowed to participate in discussions in married couple SS classes…. Bingo.
Children and youth classes divided by gender at 5th grade level because women not allow to teach ‘young men’…… Bingo.

All of these combined ‘Bingos’ (and then some) started slowly creeping into churches in rural southern Kentucky some time around 2005. By 2013, they were commonplace.
In 2014, all of the bells and whistles really went off for me when the refrigerator in our fellowship hall kitchen went on the blink. We had to wait not 2 weeks, but 6 weeks to order a new fridge because women could not speak at business meetings, and the selected male rep forgot to bring it up at the business meeting.

Excellent picture at the top of the blog of women running away!

elastigirl: the pastor would make a beeline for my husband, face bright with friendly energy, would shake his hand enthusiastically, great eye contact, introducing himself and finding out about my husband….

i was ignored completely. Invisible.

my husband had to interrupt the pastor to say, “and this is my wife…” — still no greeting, no handshake, no eye contact.

That accurately describes my experience also, even in some of the “better” churches I attended.

The first 3 reasons for decreased attendance by women given by Barna and GLOO are red herrings; women have been berated, yelled at, called names, criticized, ignored and silenced, both individually and from the pulpit. There was only so much poison I could drink before I realized I needed to run away in order to salvage my faith in Jesus.

Todd Wilhelm: I myself will tend my sheep and give them a place to lie down in peace, says the Sovereign Lord. I will search for my lost ones who strayed away, and I will bring them safely home again. I will bandage the injured and strengthen the weak.

Thanks Todd, for this passage. It was a good reminder for me of the true character of Jesus.

From the list (my emphasis):

“More women are single today than ever before,” researchers said, “and many feel discouraged by the dating pool at church, as church attendees are more often married than not.”

I call BS.
The young women see the entitled “complementarian” men, and the mental picture of trying to live with such a one drives them to say “No thanks” and out the door as quickly as possible, only stopping after three blocks, just to be sure.

I actually *had* quit until I spent two weeks in ICU and nearly died. I started listening to a pastor I met at a fireworks stand online and now I’m so glad I did, but I fully get why so many people are walking away. Churches putting weights on people where the Word doesn’t and abusing people in numerous other ways isn’t exactly going to have people beating a path to your door. Are you listening, churches?

Muff Potter:
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Very much agreed.
Jael was my kind of girl.

As in “Someone you do NOT mess with’/

davewis: But they now have a giant truck sitting in their driveway because it is too big to fit in the garage with all their other junk.

Bubba Trucks.
Drugstore Cowboy Trucks.
Urban Armageddon Escape Vehicles.
“Yank Tanks” in Australian.
I drive a ’96 Honda Del Sol and I feel as if I’m taking my life in my hands every time I hit the road amid all the Bubba Trucks — My roof doesn’t come up to even their hood level. All being driven as if a Demolition Derby — “OUT OF MY WAY! OR I’LL RUN YOU OFF THE ROAD!” with or Without the garrison flag flying from a pole in their four-foot, golf bag-sized truck bed.

(A whole four-foot truck bed. My father said if you can’t haul 4×8 sheets of drywall or plywood, it isn’t a truck. Nancy, could you back him & me up on this?)

And their Brutalist look with those battering-ram bows – Albert Speer must have switched careers from architect to auto designer. (With an in-between gig as set designer for the Starship Troopers movie.)

R: the institution he proposed isn’t supposed to look anything like the mess we’ve made of it

That’s why I qualified my comment about the institution indicating what it should look like vs. what it now appears. Individual believers are still the temple of the Holy Spirit even if the “church” is not.

Gus: – has a pastor and elders who think Doug Wilson with his misogynistic rants makes good points, is a great guy, and “gets the gospel” (Piper)

the Gospel with the Andrew Tate-sized cigars, half-gallons of Whisky, and gallon jugs of Winco Gravy/

davewis,

My comment was more sarcasm and frustration than anger. There are some SBC churches in my area that are, in my opinion, about as close as they can get to “women’s court” without triggering a mass exit…. similar to what you wrote about in your last two paragraphs.

I was born in 1964, attended SBC churches before I can remember….. I lived through the changes.
Even while I was teaching algebra II and pre-cal in mixed gender classes at a private Christian school (2008-2010) I was constantly berated by a couple of men at church because I was a woman teaching mixed gender adolescent classes in SS and VBS, and serving as bus monitor for the Wed. night youth program. But, they couldn’t find any men to do the jobs.
Back then, I thought it was just a couple of men with frail egos spouting off, and blew them off. Boy, was I wrong!

davewis: as of 2022 58% of college graduates are women. Early indications are that it will rise to the mid-60 % in the next decade

There is a two-pronged attack on that:
– attack education, because “my opinion based on a quick search of youtube videos is just as good as your expertise gained over many years and hard graft. Your education means nothing!”
– keep girls in the home, until you pass them on to an equally insecure and therefore domineering¹ husband, so that they will never embarrass you by knowing more than you on any given subject, or even – gasp – contradicting you

The looney fringe of the fundamentalists really *have* taken over a large part of American churchianity and the American public.
—
¹This really seems to be the age of small, petty, insecure men.

Where are the leading women like in Acts 17 and what are their roles in the church? Ask their opinion on something or vote them in as an elder, just 1 elder on the board? No. They can teach Sunday School, VBS, answer phones, and most of all provide food. Lots and lots of food. But no Deborahs (when was the last time you heard a sermon about her?) or Lydias running their own businesses, and the husband and wife pastors teams seem to be few (i.e. Priscilla and Aquila). Proverbs 31 shows us one busy woman and the church places big ole limitations on that woman. My husband wants to attend church far more than I do.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Bubba Trucks.
Drugstore Cowboy Trucks.
Urban Armageddon Escape Vehicles.
“Yank Tanks” in Australian.
I drive a ’96 Honda Del Sol and I feel as if I’m taking my life in my hands every time I hit the road amid all the Bubba Trucks — My roof doesn’t come up to even their hood level. All being driven as if a Demolition Derby — “OUT OF MY WAY! OR I’LL RUN YOU OFF THE ROAD!” with or Without the garrison flag flying from a pole in their four-foot, golf bag-sized truck bed.

(A whole four-foot truck bed. My father said if you can’t haul 4×8 sheets of drywall or plywood, it isn’t a truck. Nancy, could you back him & me up on this?)

And their Brutalist look with those battering-ram bows – Albert Speer must have switched careers from architect to auto designer. (With an in-between gig as set designer for the Starship Troopers movie.)

Agreed. If the bed can’t take a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood or drywall, is it not a truck.

Gus: This really seems to be the age of small, petty, insecure men.

It really is a dark age.
I long for the day when the forests echo with laughter.

JJallday: Proverbs 31 shows us one busy woman and the church places big ole limitations on that woman.

And Proverbs 31 originated as a song a husband sings to his wife praising her for who she is and what she does. NOT a Litmus-Test Checklist of her Salvation.

Arlo: I’m wearier than I ever thought possible at the entire mess and I balk at the idea of attending a so-called church that convinces itself that they’re on the right path because they are “biblical”.

Many church leaders who claim to be “biblical” turn out to be un-Biblical in belief and practice. Beware of “lead pastors” who keep harping about Biblical-this and Biblical-that, Grace-this and Grace-that, Gospel-this and Gospel-that. Again, the New Calvinists are the current worst offenders of this strategy to convince the pew that they alone hold “truth.” I never thought “biblical” would be a red flag, but it is.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I am acquainted with a couple of men who have them….. I call them wannabes.

What political survey types call “Urban/Suburban but Identify as Rural”.
What out here we call “Goat-Ropers” or “Cowboy Cosplayers”.

You know those Cowboy Cosplay/Emotional Support Trucks (or their Techie equivalent, a Tesla Cybertruck) cost as much as I paid for my house in 1997? (The dealers even have 10 & 15-year mortgages for them. Think about that — long-term mortgages for a rapidly DEPRECIATING asset. Right up there with the guys just before the last real-estate bust who’d repeatedly refi their houses at the current value & take cash out to go on a cruise.)

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): They live in subdivision houses on 1 acre lots

McMansions on One-Acre Lots = RICH PART OF TOWN.
Do they have fake crystal chandeliers over the toilets?

, and if they buy a new loveseat, they have to have it delivered.

I can go one better: Tesla Cybertrucks with bike racks off the back because a bike can’t fit inside.

Max: The Southern Baptist Convention has had a particular problem with these folks,

Because as the largest non-liturgical Protestant denomination in the States, THAT’S WHERE THE MONEY WAS.

JJallday:
Where are the leading women like in Acts 17 and what are their roles in the church?Ask their opinion on something or vote them in as an elder, just 1 elder on the board?No.They can teach Sunday School, VBS, answer phones, and most of all provide food.Lots and lots of food.But no Deborahs (when was the last time you heard a sermon about her?) or Lydias running their own businesses, and the husband and wife pastors teams seem to be few (i.e. Priscilla and Aquila).Proverbs 31 shows us one busy woman and the church places big ole limitations on that woman.My husband wants to attend church far more than I do.

Great post.

Dee, I’m responding to your statement here: “Graham would not have responded to an overture, but felt he needed to protect himself from the evil women seeking to bring him down.”

I don’t think it was the evil women as much as it was the evil tabloid journalists.

Billy Graham would not enter a hotel room without sending an aide in first, to check under the bed, inside the bathroom and shower, insided the closets. It would have been too easy for someone to plant a floozie and photographer in there, and the story all over the papers in the checkout aisles. I think his practice was wise; he had a lot to protect. Mike Pence took it to a higher level, but then Pence too is a survivor, so it has worked for him.

senecagriggs: Where do women go from here? Will they turn down guy because he’s a complementarian?

They’d be crazy not to.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Proverbs 31 originated as a song a husband sings to his wife

The speaker is a prospective mother-in-law addressing her son, telling him what kind of daughter-in-law she wants.

Listen, my son! Listen, son of my womb!
Listen, my son, the answer to my prayers!
Do not spend your strength on women,
your vigor on those who ruin kings.

It’s a “burden hard to bear” put on the shoulders of women, “and they themselves will not lift a finger to move them.”

Arlo,

“I balk at the idea of attending a so-called church that convinces itself that they’re on the right path because they are “biblical”. The same leaders have absolutely no qualms about ghosting congregants who reach out to them for help.”
+++++++++++++++++

biblical is a logical impossibility. every time one solves for biblical all it means is they’ve left out the variables that make it untrue.

(although i’m sure a mathematician can destroy my premise here)

elastigirl: biblical is a logical impossibility. every time one solves for biblical all it means is they’ve left out the variables that make it untrue.

They’ll even try to have zero as a denominator, hoping you (generic you) won’t notice.

elastigirl: (although i’m sure a mathematician can destroy my premise here)

Your premise is sound elastigirl. One thing those guys really freak out over, is when a woman is smarter than they are.

davewis: Yes, there are a few women in these jobs. They are rare… and they are very, very tough.

My daughter-in-law is in an electrician apprenticeship in Oregon. She was previously in the Marine Corps for two tours.

davewis,

Definitely NOT your Widdle CHWISTIAN Wifey, walking three steps behind her husband with her eyes fixed on the ground.

elastigirl:
davewis,

You underestimate how strong and tough women are.The toughest person in the room is a woman.

My wife is a committed Christian from a very “traditional” read patriarchal society.

Her parents were Christian, her grandparents on her dad’s side were Muslim/Buddhist – her grandmother converted to Christianity after the grandfather’s death.

Her aunt dropped out of school at sixteen to run the family store single handed (her mother was functionally illiterate) and then put her siblings through college.

Her other grandmother still taps the rubber trees on the family farm at 98 years old. She raised 8 kids plus ran the farm with her husband.

My wife worked her butt off to upgrade while we both worked full time raising our family. She now earns more money than I do. This was a big win for our family unit.

Anyone who sees women from traditional backgrounds as submissive or meek has watched too much “Shogun”

Christian fantasy and reality are often different.

elastigirl: You underestimate how strong and tough women are. The toughest person in the room is a woman.

Human history proves it too.
When the Russians (WW2) had pushed the Wehrmacht far enough West so that the death camps got liberated, the greater majority of survivors were women.

davewis: The challenge, I fear, is that many churches jumped on the angry young man bandwagon, which resulted in the current wave of “Masculine Churches.” The refrain God made man, God made women to serve man, come to our church and God will provide a woman to serve you” resonated with many of these men.

Offering Rage Phase InCels a cut of the Spoils of War.

Muff Potter,

“So how do they (complementarian ideologues) come up with the fiction that God has ordained cast-in-concrete roles for humans based solely on plumbing received at birth?
+++++++++++++++++++

using the bible like a book of magic. otherwise known as ‘Biblical’.

in order to curry God’s favor and power for a better marriage than your peers, perform these role-playing magic spells with expectation.

Gus: What will they do if said spoils of war do not materialize in a marriage bed near them? Get even more angry?

MY guess is that culturally, things will continue to swing rightward until something breaks. I think we are already seeing warning signs:

1. Immersive churches that isolate their members. As Dee wrote about in her other recent posts, Christian counseling from full-service campus churches is becoming common and financially successful. Basically, a member never needs to (gets to) interact with anyone outside of their church. We see all sorts of services emerging. One can: Go to church. Go to bible study. Attend adult and youth education through a multitude of formal and informal classes. Attending an attached school is frequently becoming an option. There are entertainment options from playdates to bands to mountain biking.

You can even stop to get your morning coffee at the attached (tax-free) full-service coffee shop.

2. Martyrdom and lack of responsibility for one’s own decisions and actions. I expect we will continue to see a culture of martyrdom and a lack of accepting responsibility. I.e., every time something goes wrong, it’s someone’s outside of the church’s fault. The corollary is that everything that goes right is because they(singularly or as a church) were singled out for God’s blessing.

3. Increasing emphasis on tradition. Churchs will look back to a (non-extant) perfect time when men were strong, women were beautiful (and fertile), and all children were above average.

4. Increasing social and legal pressure to support the church and shun those who leave or disagree. Increasingly, we are seeing legal contracts such as NDA, ‘contracts’, and even laws that limit people’s ability to speak when they think something is wrong. Legally, we are seeing an increase in rather broad Christian anti-discrimination laws that can be applied to quell potential dissent.

As so often happens in society, people, their beliefs, and behaviors exist on a spectrum. Many will be happy. “They will go along to get along,” so to speak. Others chafe at the restrictions.

It is worth watching to see if there are people at the margins who feel left out and frustrated. How do they react? My expectation is that there will be anger. An open question is whether that anger is pointed inward at themselves for their own perceived (taught) failures, inward at their church for misleading them, or outward at the larger society.

davewis: Christian counseling from full-service campus churches is becoming common and financially successful. Basically, a member never needs to (gets to) interact with anyone outside of their church.

Where you can go from Altar Call to Homegoing(TM) or Rapture(TM) without ever having to interact with any Heathen outside of your full-service Church. Or any Apostate. Or any Heretic/Dissident.

elastigirl: using the bible like a book of magic. otherwise known as ‘Biblical’.

in order to curry God’s favor and power for a better marriage than your peers, perform these role-playing magic spells with expectation.

“Masters of Mighty Magick” — occult fanboys who are the next Aliester Crowley in their own mind and a running bad joke/laughingstock in everyone else’s.

And that Magick System is a FIZZLE FACTOR, not Vancian (X spells per day), not Spell Points. What if their Mighty Magick Spells (verse-by-verse from their Grimoire) fizzle? (Like the Magick Duel between Crowley and Willim Butler Yeats 120 years ago on the steps of the OTO/Golden Dawn Temple in Londom. Crowley with his amulets and spells was trying to take over the coven and advanced with his magickal hand signs and spells and amulets while Yeats and the others defended with their Grimoires, Amulets, Artifacts, and Counter-Spells. But every Spell fizzled and Crowley kept advancing up the stairs. Until he got into touch range and Yeats won the Magick Duel by kicking Crowley in the balls. I am not making that up.)

Guys. I’m Old School D&D (Brown Box) going back 50 years this coming November. But then (unlike the MoMMs mentioned above) my Fleshly mind KNEW it wasn’t real!

I had to laugh at measuring a man’s real manliness by the size of the pickup bed if he chooses to park a truck in suburbia. A REAL man knows better than haul plywood in the truck anyway. Way easier to load and unload it from the flatbed trailer he uses to move equipment.

Seriously, we lived many years in the Rockies and northern plains. EVERYBODY just about drove a truck. Four wheel style. Often with a short bed or narrow bed and who cared? Wasn’t about what it would haul but where it would go. My little Nissan puppy truck from the late 90s could hand Engineer, Cinnamon, and Corkscrew passes without breaking a sweat, and even handled Black Bear late in the season and Rocky early in the season with no hassle. No full size truck took them as easily, and you would be way more likely to fall off the side.

Now where I live once again a huge number of vehicles are trucks, again or especially with little old men and women driving them. That way if they are getting stuff curbside in the winter when colds, flu, covid, rsv, measles, whooping cough, or whatever the beast of the day is they can stay cozy inside their closed vehicle and have the stuff just dropped in the bed of the truck.

But did get a good laugh out of the discussion. Peace!

Todd Wilhelm,

I love your comment, Todd Wilhelm. 🙂 And I loved your Ezekiel quote — very apt. 🙂 NOT like so many others who prooftext.

Muff Potter,

an abra cadabra alakazam sort of closing.

Muff Potter: They always conclude their magic spells and incantations with ‘In Jesus’ Name’ as if he’s an enforcer to do their bidding.

Including the Proud Boys and QAnon Shaman before and during the Capitol riot of 2021.
There’s footage of both — in fluent Christianese with the “In Jesus’ Name” incantation ending.

Both Appalachian and Pennsylvania Dutch lore are full of Witch-Men and Hexerai who by spells and incantations bind supernatural beings to use as their Enforcers. Often in a supernatural extortion racket. Remember, in Magick the mortal Sorcerer is the one in charge, in complete control over the bound Supernatural beings and forces — “MY Will Be Done’.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Women not allowed to speak at business meetings…. Bingo.
Women not allowed to participate in discussions in married couple SS classes…. Bingo.
Children and youth classes divided by gender at 5th grade level because women not allow to teach ‘young men’…… Bingo.

I know a woman
Became a wife
These are the very words she uses
To describe her life
She said a good day
Ain’t got no rain
She said a bad day’s when I lie in bed
And think of things that might have been
Slip slidin’ away
Slip slidin’ away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you’re slip slidin’ away
— Paul Simon 1977 —

I apologize if I was unclear in my writing in an earlier comment about women in the skilled trades.

I did not in any way mean that women are not tough enough to do the job.

What I meant, but failed to articulate, is that there is often a very high barrier to entry for women in the trades. In many areas, Misogyny is rampant. Putting up with that abuse day after day until one is accepted, if not respected, is hard. It requires a tough, tough person.

Depending on the trade, women tend to make up 5-10% of the workforce. There have been many efforts over the years to improve those numbers, but it is still a challenge.

I mentioned my cousin… As a steamfitter (I guess other regions call them pipefitters), she often worked at remote sites for the duration of the project. Her coworkers made it a point to make sure she knew she didn’t belong and they didn’t want her there.

So, during her off time (when the others were playing cards), she would go down to the shop and practice until she was very good and very fast. She would study to get additional certifications. Additional certifications meant she was able to work on different, often more complicated, higher-paying jobs.

Her peers and supervisors might not have liked having her there, but they had to respect her skill and work ethic.

Max: hey are not those wimpy trucks which can only hold a cooler and picnic basket or a couple bags of mulch.

The measurement I heard was “Three or four golf bags”.
They’re for Rugged Rural Outdoorsman COSPLAY, nothing more.
“MT RUGGED! ME TOUGH! SEE? SEE? SEE?”

(The funniest Bubba Truck I’ve seen IRL was one that was four-wheel jacked about two feet up l(fore & aft driveshafts angled maybe 20-30 degrees) with custom chrome 24+ inch rims with maybe one inch of super-wide street tire on them.

Some Urban Apocalypse Escape Vehicle.
Couldn’t make up its mind whether it was a monster truck or a Formula 1 Lamborghini.

elastigirl:
Muff Potter,

an abra cadabra alakazam sort of closing.

I think “abra cadabra” started out as slurred Aramaic for “I Speak and It Is So”.

The death curse in Harry Potter — “Avara Kedvara” (SP?) — is an inversion of it:
“I Speak and It Is No More”.

davewis,

your comments are always very thoughtfully articulated, insightful, and honest. it’s always interesting conversation to read. (if in-person dialogue around a big table is not feasible)

elastigirl: your comments are always very thoughtfully articulated, insightful, and honest.

As contrasted to Seneca the Smug.

“Women are Outpacing Men in the Race to Stop Attending Church”

And many are running like hell! In addition to an outbreak of dirty old men in the pulpit, a resurgence of hardcore complementarian belief and practice has subordinated women to less than human status. Authoritarian church leaders are scary … aberrant theology abounds … cults of personality follow “Christian” celebrities into darkness … megachurch is a mega mess … etc. etc. Why wouldn’t any woman in her right spiritual mind flee?! Men are losing this race because they come out of the blocks too slow.

Muff Potter: elastigirl: in order to be a ‘christian’, one has to be a contortionist wrenching oneself more & more in ever-twisting pretzel-shaped ways.

Great analogy!

And when you are tired of being a knot, you become a done.