The Whole Story of Tyler Bates: Grace Church Pastors Didn’t Tell Him He Was Molested, Said He Wasn’t Affected When He Found Out, and Protected the Abuser, Not the Victim.

“There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you.” – Maya Angelou from AI Overview Google.


I apologize for the rough formatting. I committed the cardinal sin of being lax and copying things directly from a new source without putting the words into plain text first. I know some of you are laughing. I will work to clean it up, but it’s mostly readable.


I left messages requesting statements from Pastor Steve Riggle and Pastor Garrett Booth. I mentioned I was posting today. I received no responses, but I will post their statements if I receive them. Somehow, I doubt that will happen.


Tyler asked me to follow the format and chronology from Rita Springer’s excellent  Podcast: He was abused by a church leader and told to stay silent. I have embedded the entire 2-hour+ podcast at the end of this post. All quotes are from the podcast.

I genuinely believe Tyler and Connie’s story, so much so that I couldn’t fall asleep the first time I heard it. I can still be startled by ignorance.


If you were asleep when molested, does it count?

Here is a hypothetical situation that has been in the media occasionally. Stacie has just completed surgery for the removal of her appendix, which had ruptured. It was successful, and she is still asleep from the anesthesia. It is late at night, and a janitor molests her. He is caught by the nurse, who immediately documents and reports what happened. Stacie slept through it all. What is the appropriate response once the patient awakens and her family is present?

  1. She slept through it all. It did not affect her. Don’t report it.
  2. Let’s wait until the janitor is ready to tell her the story. After all, he is a nice guy.
  3. Call the police to investigate. Alert the family and patient. Provide counseling and wait for the inevitable lawsuit.

Of course, the answer is clear. Molestation is a crime while asleep or awake. Any sexual act or touching must involve consent. Someone asleep or otherwise incapacitated cannot give consent. Period.

Teen boys and young men (and women) can sleep so soundly that it is difficult for them to wake up.

My son loved to play sports and video games. When he became a teen, he ran around all day and slept the sleep of the dead at night. We used to laugh about how hard it was to wake him up. I know that many of his friends had the same response to sleep. By the way, they didn’t use drugs. Many moms are nodding along. This is normal.

So what’s this all about? A young man was molested in his sleep; the pastors knew and didn’t tell him. They let the abuser continue to be a youth pastor, and he, Joel, molested Tyler while he was asleep again! The pastors said that he was sleeping, so he was not affected. They didn’t even bother to report it to the police. When I first heard about this, I couldn’t believe a church would be this ignorant. After 16 years, I should know better. I had a hard time sleeping after this one.

Tyler Bates

Tyler grew up in Houston. He was homeschooled, and his family were long-time members of Grace Church Houston. Both Garrett Booth and Steve Riggle would play prominent roles in downplaying Tyler’s molestation.

in 2014, After serving Grace for 20 years in various roles, Garrett and Andrea Booth became the lead pastors of Grace Church Houston. Steve and Becky Riggle transitioned to the role of founding pastors along with becoming the lead pastors at Grace Woodlands and leading Grace International, a worldwide fellowship of churches and ministries.

As a teen, Tyler realized he wouldn’t be a baseball star, so from 12 to 18, he began interning at the church in the kids and worship departments. He was excited to help with a Camp for the Performing Arts for the church in the summer. They brought in a new youth leader, Joel, from Dallas, who was 8 years older, and took him under his wing. He loved this. When he turned 18, he moved to Nashville, where he played Larry the Cucumber Live. (I love Larry.)

He learns he was molested and, consequently, that he is no longer appropriate dating material for the daughter of the Executive Pastor.

He then attended Christ for the Nations and began dating a girl from Grace. Her father was an executive pastor. One day, he went to pick her up, and she was crying. He said her father told her she needed to break up with him. She didn’t want to say to him why. “It is really bad.” He got his friend Joel to help him find out and said he would call him back later that night.

He told him the previous summer that while they were on that trip to San Diego for the Performing Arts Camp, he came into Tyler’s room and touched him sexually.

I touched you and so then I told Steve and Garrett who were the senior pastors of Grace Church afterwards and we all decided that we weren’t going to tell you or
your family because they idn’t want y’all’s faith in the church to be like shaken. with like you know we we’veseen some other church leaders fall
He was crying and said he didn’t know if he would be forgiven and I said he forgave him. He said the church was sending him for cunseling on a weekly basis.

The next day, Pastor Garret Booth called him.

I heard you had a conversation with Joel last night. What did he tell you?
Notice the caution in that question. Tyler told him that he was upset that his girlfriend had to break up with him and that now he recognizes that it is due to Joel’s confession. Pastor Booth said this was not your story and doesn’t affect you. Also, he (Joel) will tell your parents, not you!
I was so angry when he told us I oh I wanted to hurt him but what we decided was we didn’t want it to ruin his life he’s a young guy so we’re sending him to counseling and Tyler like I just want
you to know like this doesn’t affect you it’s not your storyWe think that he should be the one that tells your parents like we want him to go through a couple more like Steps in his  counseling and when he’s ready he can he can tell your parents
Tyler didn’t question him since he was raised to believe in “spiritual authority” and that those over you have your best interests at heart.
When Joel’s ready and when you tell your parents , we’ll walk you guys through that
Tyler remained silent, telling no one for a long time. Tyler now says that it made no sense for the abuser to have all the allowances of when to tell Tyler’s family.

Pastors allegedly said that Tyler was homosexual.

Connie knew about Tyler’s abuse before she became his girlfriend. She asked him why he hadn’t said anything to his parents and felt he had been a victim of spiritual manipulation by his pastors.

Connie was close to Tyler’s ex-girlfriend’s brother. He took her to coffee to tell her that she shouldn’t date Tyler because his dad (the executive pastor) said that he was pretty sure that Tyler was a homosexual and that he had some relationship with Joel. Connie knew he wasn’t homosexual because he had been in a loving and committed relationship with his former girlfriend for many years. This is something her brother did not seem to understand fully. She continued to date Tyler, and in 2013, they got engaged.

At this time, he was involved in Gateway’s kid’s ministry. He was asked to meet with one of the pastors. The pastor said:

     I just need you to be honest with me but what was the nature of your relationship with this guy down in Houston at Grace Church?

Gateway gave a tour of their facility to some pastors from an affiliated church with Grace. They saw Tyler Bates on stage, conducting a worship, and said

      I heard some rumors that he was in a relationship with a man in Houston.

Tyler explained the whole story to the Gateway pastor. Sadly, Tyler fed back the old things he was told to say.

  • It was not his story to tell.
  • He was not affected by it,
  • He’s moved on with his life.
The Gateway pastor said, “Great,” and that was that. His story was accepted, and he continued in ministry. Tyler proposed to Connie.

Connie discovered masses in her breasts and decided to plan a double mastectomy.

In February 2014, a month before they were to be married, Connie discovered lumps in her breasts. She has a serious family history of breast cancer with a grandmother and aunt who died in their 40s. Her blood work indicated that she had the BRCA gene and was at risk for cancer. She discovered the masses were benign but was told they were precursors to breast cancer. They decided a prophylactic double mastectomy was called for and decided to wait until a few months after the wedding.

At the same time, Tyler decided to tell his parents about the molestation.

Tyler’s parents still attended Grace Church, which was difficult for Tyler and Connie. Two weeks before the wedding, Tyler’s parents told them that Pastor Steve had given a great sermon about being a light in the darkness,  living in righteousness, standing up for what’s right even when it’s unpopular, and doing the right thing.

Tyler had yet to tell his parents about the molestation, and Connie strongly insisted that he do so immediately since his younger siblings still go to the church. Joel was still on staff, allegedly dressed up as Santa, and allowed kids to sit on his lap. Although Tyler and Connie were busy doing a video event for kids at church and they were facing Connie’s surgery, he decided to tell his parents about it at his grandfather’s birthday celebration, which they were attending.

As he explained to his parents, it happened in 2010, but he thought it was not his story to tell. His parents were livid and thought otherwise. He explained that rumors were going around that he was in a consenting relationship with Joel. In 2012, the Jerry Sandusky revelations occurred, and not only did he go to prison, but so did those who had covered it up. It is obvious to this observer that Tyler was beginning to deal with the reality of the trauma of his molestation. He told his parents this information made him feel terrible about turning their lives upside down.

His parents called Pastor Steve, and Joel revealed that he molested Tyler a second time!

His parents were incensed, and his father immediately called Pastor Steve. Steve immediately said

      We’ve done nothing wrong legally.

His dad asked why Tyler was told not to tell his parents  and to wait until the abuser “got it all right.” Steve suggested a meeting. The parents wanted to meet with Joel before they met with the pastors. Joel came to the parent’s house with some friends. He said that on another trip, he repeated the same action, explicitly saying he touched Tyler’s private parts while he was sleeping. He claimed he felt guilty about it… So Tyler was molested in 2009 and 2010. Allegedly, the pastors knew of the first molestation and still allowed Joel to go on a trip with Tyler where they would share a hotel room. It is important to note that Tyler was a minor the first time this happened, and no criminal report was made even though the pastors knew what had happened.

Tyler, Connie, and his parents returned to meet with the pastors.

They defended their actions. The Executive Pastor said he didn’t feel he was on Tyler’s side of the story. Was he implying that Tyler consented?”  Tyler insisted they stop talking about this because it could affect his job as a youth leader and maker of kids’ videos. Pastor Steve showed them a letter purported to be Joel’s resignation.

He’s a young guy who made some mistakes I’d hate to see it ruin his life. What do you want me to do with it? I don’t want to ruin his life.

Tyler noted that the pastor was putting the burden on Tyler to make this decision. Tyler replies that they were the ones who decided to keep Joel on staff, so the decision is on them. His parents insisted they have policies to protect kids and ensure this doesn’t happen again. They brought up the group MinistrySafe. Eventually, nothing was accomplished, and they all walked out of the meeting.

Tyler and Connie returned home, where they prepared for Connie’s double mastectomy the next day.

Later, his mom told Tyler’s siblings what had happened. His twin brother took it hard since they had been so close. The family would stay in the church for one more year, trying to make a difference, but they eventually left the church. As many readers know, it is often impossible to change a church once the pastors have dug in. This move was difficult since the children had grown up in this church, and the parents had many family friends. As TWW has seen in situation after situation, they lost their lifelong friends.

Connie had her double mastectomy and was due for reconstructive surgery several months later. The surgeon discovered she was pregnant, and he had to postpone the surgery. They named her Bravery.

Tyler and Connie are processing what has happened to his point.

  • He was told he was molested once but that it didn’t affect him because he was asleep.
  • He was told to stay quiet about this because it wasn’t his story to tell, and he was told not to tell his parents, who attended the church.
  • Joel, the abuser, stayed on staff and molested him twice.
  • Tyler was a minor in the first molestation.
  • Rumors are started that he is a homosexual, implying he wanted what happened to him.
  • The church did not report this crime to the police.
  • Joel continued on staff and was involved in the youth ministry.
  • Tyler married Connie, who convinced him to tell his parents.
  • His parents contacted Pastor Steve and met with him and Joel. They were the ones who found out about the second molestation.
  • The parents, Tyler and Connie, met with Pastor Steve, who told them to decide if they wanted to ruin a young man’s life because of “mistakes.” (ed.note: Why don’t they say sins and crimes?)
  • Tyler begins to understand that he has been manipulated, victimized, and revictimized by the pastors.
  • They realized the church sent the wolf, Joel, to counseling, not the victim.
  • Tyler, Connie, and his parents understand this is a crime, not a mistake.
  • Tyler believes the church has a hard time separating sin from crime. It is both, and repentance doesn’t cover it. The law needs to be involved.
  • Connie had a double mastectomy at the age of 22, shortly after their marriage and amid these revelations.
  • Their first child, Bravery, was born.

The rest of the story:

The church decided to restore Joel.

Yes, you read this right. They called a church in Austin, which took him in and put him in student ministry!

Tyler considered and began legal action.

Tyler began to have night terrors and confided in Tom Lane and his friends at Gateway. Gateway leaders were most supportive of Tyler from the very beginning. Gateway supported his decision to obtain a lawyer and offered to pay for counseling. Remember, Grace paid for counseling of the abuser and did not pay for counseling of Tyler.

His counselor, Debbie, was excellent, and he stayed with her for two years. Through her, he found the name of a good lawyer. The legal process took 8 years. It is an understatement to say Grace Church fought them at every turn. Connie said they even implied that the stress in their marriage was due to the double mastectomy, not the pain Tyler went through.

Tyler said Willow Creek Church is an example of how a church should respond to a lawsuit.

Tyler was visiting Willow Creek to see their children’s program. That same weekend, it was revealed that two children had been molested in the program. They have a counselor who got involved. But here is an unusual shout-out to Bill Hybels. He got up in front of the church and told them that the parents of the children had decided to pursue legal action against the church. Hybels said:

(it)is completely within their right to do so so would you join us in just praying for these families as we try to surround them as they pick up the broken pieces and ask that the spirit of God would be with them and around them as they do that and how we as their church family can be supportive.
That was not the approach that Grace Church took.

Amazing Kids is born.

They formed a company to do what they love to do. Connie and Tyler now have a kids’ curriculum company and work with children. Tyler remembers a man who worked with children in church when he was young. The man planted some seeds that stayed with him throughout his life. His faith has helped him to get through these challenges. That is what he hopes his curriculum might do for children. It should plant seeds that will stay with them through the ups and downs of life.

What happened with the lawsuit?

The lawsuit went on for a long time (2017-2024.) They said that Grace Church was difficult to deal with in this process. It was finally settled, and an NDA is attached. That means we will not know how much money he got (I hope it was millions), but he could still tell his story! That is why I could write this post.

He talked about how he handled forgiveness. He says it has nothing to do with forgetting, which means one can forgive while holding another accountable for their actions. He says it is a continual process. He likened it to taking a shower every day. Their faith is strong.

Where is Joel, the abuser?

He finally turned up at Milestone Church with his wife. They both held positions within the church. Joel was in the youth program. Gateway leaders, Tyler and Connie called the church to warn them. The church kept saying he had repented. Eventually, they removed him from the youth program but allowed him to do audio that could involve youth. It is worrisome that church leaders do not understand the long-term problems that affect those with paraphilias. They were finally let go from their positions. I don’t know where he is now, but I bet he is “working” with kids.

What was a surprise to me?

We have focused on Robert Morris and the leaders who knew or should have known. After that, some good people were left to care for the church. Tom Lane and a couple of other folks, who shall be anonymous, greatly supported Tyler and Connie (as well as me in writing this.) Thank you for being present in this awful story of some other pastors who, in my opinion, got it wrong and were abusive to Tyler, Connie, and their families. No wonder they didn’t return my call for a statement.

Final thoughts

  • I am heartened by Tyler and Connie’s deep and abiding love for God’s church after Grace Church treated them so shamefully. I am in awe of their confidence in the church in the future.
  • People in Grace Church and Milestone Church should watch out for the welfare of their children while in church or on church trips.
  • I am deeply disturbed and shocked by Grace Church’s alleged response. The same goes for Milestone Church. If they ever get back to me, I will post their statements. “Shame on all of you” keeps running through my head. I wonder why. Maybe one of these days, they will learn why they messed up. Caveat Emptor to all who attend those churches.
  • Tyler wanted his “whole story” response to Grace Church’s nasty insinuations. His whole story was posted on Rita Springer’s podcast. He assured me that the narrative was correct in that two-hour broadcast.
  • There was much that I left unsaid. Here is the podcast to hear this incredible and disturbing story.

 

 

Comments

The Whole Story of Tyler Bates: Grace Church Pastors Didn’t Tell Him He Was Molested, Said He Wasn’t Affected When He Found Out, and Protected the Abuser, Not the Victim. — 30 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee,
    I understand why you lost sleep over it


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    Thanks. This story was told to me on top of another story, about which I can’t write at this time. It’s even worse, and it involves a famous pastor. I ended up trying to read an Agatha Christie mystery at 4:30 AM. Sometimes, it is almost too much.


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “The church decided to restore Joel. Yes, you read this right. They called a church in Austin, which took him in and put him in student ministry!”

    (1) You can’t “restore” someone who has been permanently disqualified from ministry

    (2) A “church” which does so should not be considered a genuine church


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max,

    yup..


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee: Sometimes, it is almost too much.

    It’s called the “burden of the Lord”, Dee


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “we didn’t want it to ruin his life; he’s a young guy so we’re sending him to counseling…I just want you to know like this doesn’t affect you; it’s not your story”–Pastor Garrett Booth
    ++++++++++++++++++

    And the award for Ignoramus Of The Year goes to, Pastor Garrett Booth


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Great analogy of the patient and the janitor. That breaks it down to a reality that even an idiot like Pastor Booth can understand.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I wonder….. what would have happened if Joel the youth pastor had not molested Tyler, but had molested one of the Booth’s or Riggle’s children instead?


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max,

    Yes praying for you Dee that God would strengthen and comfort you with his grace as you carry out his work in the world.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee:

    Sometimes, it is almost too much.

    Dee, I cannot imagine how difficult it must be.

    I realize that we only know a small percentage of what must pass through your hands – and what we see is awful enough as it is.

    May you receive His Strength and rest in His Peace.


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee: Sometimes, it is almost too much.

    The Lord gave you this burden, Dee, because He could trust you. He will give you the strength to endure.


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Right on Max. One suggestion: shouldn’t the name of Milestone Church be changed to Millstone church, considering our Lord’s remarks on what should happen to those who harm children?


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max: (1) You can’t “restore” someone who has been permanently disqualified from ministry

    (2) A “church” which does so should not be considered a genuine church

    You forget:
    ‘ABRACADABRA” — Slurred Aramaic for “I Speak And IT IS SO!”


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    linda: shouldn’t the name of Milestone Church be changed to Millstone church, considering our Lord’s remarks on what should happen to those who harm children?

    The Lord is keeping another set of books in Heaven … we will find out that many churches we called church are not entered there, the names of certain pastors we called pastor are not written there, some things we judged as right have been recorded as wrong.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    When evangelicals talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, they tend to focus on what they call the “moral” of the story: same-sex intercourse.

    What they forget:
    * It was intended to be non-consensual same-sex intercourse
    * The woman who was raped to death

    Convenient for them how they tend to gloss over the same Biblical details in managing their own churches – forgetting the actual and/or intended victims, and making it about homosexuality.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Alexandra A,

    And in Ezekiel, it is plainly stated that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but abuse of the stranger, i.e., lack of hospitality.


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    apocalipstick:
    Alexandra A,

    And in Ezekiel, it is plainly stated that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but abuse of the stranger, i.e., lack of hospitality.

    Yeah, gang-raping a stranger who just came to town kinda violates Hospitality.

    Convenient how it has been redefined to mean that snarl word HOMOSEXUAITY, eh, My Dear Wormwood?


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Alexandra A: When evangelicals talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, they tend to focus on what they call the “moral” of the story: same-sex intercourse.

    Ah, HOMOSEXUALITY(TM).

    The Ultimate Other, the Enemy lurking in every closet and under every bed like the Witches of Old and the Demons of Spiritual Warfare gurus. Just the mention of the word disables all brain cells above the Christianese brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left.

    As long as you’re not One of Them, you can slake any other Sexual Appetite and get away with it. As was said on the bus during Josh Duggar’s first sex scandal, “And they’re CHRISTIAN. Guess it’s OK to bang your sisters as long as you’re Not Gay(TM).”

    And from my high school career (four years I’ve been trying to forget ever happened for the past 50), “FAAAAAG!” means anybody who’s different. Most common accusation towards any kid who isn’t sexually active. But then, a lot of MenaGAWD and their flying-monkey minions have never, ever left Middle/High School.


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    apocalipstick,

    (trigger warning) According to an “extra-biblical source” they had a guillotine operating horizontally. After Abraham and friends (plus 318 stalwarts) had saved them from similar at the hands of the “Coalition police operation”.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “The family would stay in the church for one more year, trying to make a difference, but they eventually left the church. …. This move was difficult since the children had grown up in this church, and the parents had many family friends. As TWW has seen in situation after situation, they lost their lifelong friends.”

    This might be an unpopular opinion…. But an overreliance on a single, often church-related, friend group is a red flag for me. In my mind, the church can provide a valuable community for members.

    However, that community can become harmful if it is the only group that members belong to. Sadly, even well-intended churches tend to promote insularity.

    I have made it a point to have several non-overlapping friend groups: Chuch, work, old-guy gym buddies, VA buddies, kid’s friend’s parent’s (carpool buddies)…

    I have encouraged (some might say required 🙂 my girls to participate in one church, one athletic, one art or music, and one academic group each year. Maybe I am wrong, but breadth of interest and knowledge can help people from getting trapped into unhealthy silos of thought and activity.


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    davewis: I have encouraged (some might say required my girls to participate in one church, one athletic, one art or music, and one academic group each year. Maybe I am wrong, but breadth of interest and knowledge can help people from getting trapped into unhealthy silos of thought and activity.

    Excellent advice. Too many Christians end up alone when their church “family” leaves them stranded for whatever reason.


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    apocalipstick: And in Ezekiel, it is plainly stated that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but abuse of the stranger, i.e., lack of hospitality.

    An inconvenient fact almost never mentioned in the fundagelical repertoire.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Max: Excellent advice.Too many Christians end up alone when their church “family” leaves them stranded for whatever reason.

    Which is why those same churches program mandatory 24/7/365 services, devotions, small group/cell meetings, and on-site Christian Counterfeits for everything on the Outside — Christian bowling leagues, Christian fitness workouts, Christian movies, Christian TV, etc etc etc.

    Until all your “family”, all your friends, everyone you know is from Church. No Heathens to ever tempt yu away from Church. And (most important) NO outside contacts or support system you can turn to when your church “family” all denounce and shun you for Disloyalty. And Christ Shall Spew Thee Out Of His Holy Mouth on The Last Day…

    In the mid-Seventies, I was being love-bombed into an End of the World CULT.
    Discovering SF Fandom and Dungeons & Dragons (and the resulting outside contacts) were what pulled me out of it. Otherwise, I might have disappeared permanently into their Cult Compound.


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    That is right Linda – Millstone, not Milestone, should be the name of that “church.” It certainly is the future of that church. Did anyone watch 20/20 this past week? The program was about a pastor who did away with his wife. The reporter was asking the sheriff a question about the pastor and the sheriff interrupted and said “not pastor, predator.”


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Until all your “family”, all your friends, everyone you know is from Church. No Heathens to ever tempt yu away from Church. And (most important) NO outside contacts or support system you can turn to when your church “family” all denounce and shun you for Disloyalty. And Christ Shall Spew Thee Out Of His Holy Mouth on The Last Day…

    This is how I was raised.

    When Dad retired, my parents moved to our current city. They mellowed out and broadened their interests as they formed a new post-retirement group of friends.

    Dad, especially, made it a point to raise his Grandchildren differently than he raised us: Story hours at the library, hours playing in the park, and once a week, he would take the grandkids to the Children’s Museum to check out the new display.

    Jump ahead 15 years. Dad has died and my sister refuses to talk to our mom or let mom see her kids because she is not Christian enough. For her, Lutherns are not ‘real’ Christians

    Mom’s heart is broken, but what do you say to her, “Your Daughter is behaving exactly the way you raised her!”


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    dee: Sometimes, it is almost too much.

    The chill – not even net zero but absolute zero. Rooted in much of prestige religion is the feeling that what boys they don’t assault directly, they try to turn into their proxy predators, including against girls, or ones who will condone mental cruelty to those around them. Curriculums or policies get tweaked apparently aiding a degree of deniability however inadvertent. What we call the Fall is codependency damage that has got into our epigenetics. Even post-Fall it’s plainly normal in God’s eyes for boys and girls to group themselves together. What were cultural customs (sometimes eccentric) have recently been given malign spiritual force.


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    Michael in UK: What we call the Fall is codependency damage that has got into our epigenetics.

    Good description.

    After much deconstruction, I have come to a similar conclusion about “Generational Curses”; each generation raises the one after it and passes on that epigenetic codependency to the next.

    It’s not God sitting up in Heaven with binoculars in one hand and a sledgehammer in the other (SMITE! SMITE! SMITE!) but consequences resulting from what gets passed on generation after generation.

    davewis: Mom’s heart is broken, but what do you say to her, “Your Daughter is behaving exactly the way you raised her!”

    Type Example.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: consequences resulting from what gets passed on generation after generation.

    Another example: The stories of King David.
    Great Warrior, famous King, not so hot when it came to his own family.

    How David doing Bathsheba — putting a hit out on her husband and taking her for his harem — set chains of events in motion starting with Amnon & Absalom and ending two generations later with Rebohoam and the country breaking up. “I WANNA!” becoming a Butterfly Effect.


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    davewis: This might be an unpopular opinion…. But an overreliance on a single, often church-related, friend group is a red flag for me. In my mind, the church can provide a valuable community for members.

    From the comment thread of a True Crime video on YouTube last weekend (about a killer pastor):

    “When you meet someone for the first time and the first thing they say is describe themselves as ‘a devout Christian’, that should be a red flag.”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    One of my movements – their chapter in town A were content for me to drop out and in as I felt like for years. I moved to town B where the branch were my acquaintancees. But as soon as I gave them advance notice I was only going to do two Thursdays out of three and none of the Mondays, Fridays or Saturdays, what do I get. (A well-connected lady had arranged similar, citing looking after a relative.) Constantly phoned, can’t you help us Monday, Friday, Saturday? When I already spent breath telling them honestly. I actually wanted to stay part of it on my own sensible terms. Variations over time and space aid deniability, in this case not inadvertently.

    What Genesis DOESN’T say, is what horrendous thing Adam did to Eve in the first place, to lead to her reacting with the apple-snake thing.