The Summit Mothership, as seen from my Honda dealer in Raleigh, I live within the 15 minute drive standard.
“Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair.” Gilbert K. Chesterton
Observations of the area surrounding The Summit mothership in Raleigh, NC
This morning, I sat in the shadow of The Summit Church Mothership for 31/2 hours because my husband’s car needed to be serviced. I live about 10 minutes away. I passed Open Door Church (SBC) on my way there. They are about 5 minutes from The Summit. It is a good-sized, thriving church. Less than 10 minutes away is Richland Creek Community Church, also SBC, a good-sized, thriving community church. Other churches are on Capital Blvd (Rputh 1) and in Raleigh and Wake Forest, all close to The Summit. Oddly enough, The Summit left its building in the Durham area to build a typical big-box facility surrounded by clear-cut trees to make room for the parking lot.
Well-known auto sales surround them. Oddly enough, their building fits in well. If I were being snarky, I might say that being in Raleigh’s car sales area fits in well with the sales job that Greear is doing. I know lots of people who have chosen to attend the mothership. If one believes that the church grew by the “evangelization of the heathens on North Raleigh,” one might be surprised to learn that most of the people attending the church slid out of one of the “thriving local churches” into the wonder of big box, lots of programs, and the seeming “we are the best” attitudes of the attendee and the workers. Also, North Raleigh has more disposable income than in their previous mothership’s location. I wonder if that had anything to do with the “big move.”Ther are many churches close to The Summit.
This leaves me with the question, “What’s going on with the rapid expansion of the Summit?” I think I have some answers that come straight from JD Greear’s writings.
JD Greear sued Chatham County since they won’t let him build his next megastructure.
Greear pulled the “religious discrimination” card.
The Christian Post wrote JD Greear’s megachurch sues NC county for religious discrimination as it seeks to expand.
Former Southern Baptist Convention President J.D. Greear’s multi-campus The Summit Church in North Carolina has filed a lawsuit against the Chatham County Board of Commissioners alleging religious discrimination after it rejected the church’s request to rezone nearly 100 acres of land to house its Chapel Hill campus.
The 743-page lawsuit filed on Feb. 14 in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina and reviewed by The Christian Post, seeks to enforce the church’s “civil rights as enshrined in the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution and codified in the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act.”
Pay attention to this line. It’s key. More momentarily.
Greear’s vision for North Carolina’s Triangle region to ensure people live “no more than fifteen minutes from a thriving evangelical church” is highlighted. Summit Church currently has 13 campuses meeting in 12 locations,
How big is this planned facility?
According to Ministrywatch’s post, NC Church Sues County Over Rezoning Denial.
In the federal complaint, which spans more than 700 pages including exhibits, The Summit Church alleges the county breached the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) by denying its plan to construct an 82,000-square-foot facility on a 100-acre parcel once approved for a retirement community. The proposal included a 1,200-seat auditorium, 500-plus parking spaces, a sports court, a children’s play area, and a large grass field.
County commissioners and some community members opposed the development, describing The Summit Church as a “megachurch” that clashed with the rural character outlined in Plan Chatham, the county’s official land-use guide.
Chatham County is becoming a trendy, fast-growing area with many possibilities for multi-site churches.
Chatham County is one of North Carolina’s fastest-growing counties, ranking ninth in growth over the last five years, according to World Population Review. The 15-501 corridor, which The Summit aimed to build, includes major developments like Briar Chapel and Fearrington Village—areas county officials describe as more “urbanized” than traditional rural zones.
Greear wants to have The Summit “serve” every Triangle resident within a short drive. (He usually says 15 minutes.) This is about them.
…The Summit is asking the court to command Chatham County to approve the church’s rezone request and associated site plan, require the County to pay court fees and damages, and enforce any orders necessary to grant further relief when applicable.
As litigation proceeds, The Summit Church says it remains committed to its regional expansion strategy—part of its goal to serve every Triangle resident within a short drive.
Could it be that the county would rather have a business contributing to the tax base just like The Summit hopes to increase its tithe base?!
Does The Summit understand that this is a rural area looking to increase its tax base? Undoubtedly, The Summit has sought to plant churches in the regions that would contribute to its tithe base.
Church Leaders wrote JD Greear’s The Summit Church Sues NC County Over Zoning, Cites Discrimination. (There happens to be thriving churches in Chatham County. I have even visited one of them.)
During meetings about the zoning issue, county commissioners discussed concerns about traffic, an influx of “outsiders,” tax and revenue issues, and the need to preserve the area’s “rural character.” After the lawsuit was filed, the county attorney insisted that local leaders are not “hostile to religious institutions and practices.”
Whoa: It appears this is not the first litigation for Summit.
This was a particularly ugly situation. Locals characterized this as a grab for a facility. The Summit has a meeting place in Knightdale, but this deal might have provided land, assets, and a building. Things didn’t go as planned.
The Summit Church also was embroiled in recent litigation while trying to purchase a campus in Knightdale, North Carolina.
According to Triangle Business Journal, After layoffs, the bankrupt Triangle church wants to keep paying its pastor.
The church has been in a state of limbo since an injunction tied to the lawsuit halted its plans to merge with The Summit’s Knightdale congregation. According to the suit, Little had announced merger plans in January. The Summit currently meets at Knightdale High School.
In a memo included in court exhibits, Little outlined the church’s reasoning for the combination. He told members leaders “prayed to find a like-minded church in our area to partner with us” and reached out to The Summit to create a merger plan in order to maintain an “active church body to serve Knightdale.”
As part of the merger, Faith Baptist would dissolve and transfer its remaining assets to The Summit, which would pay off the remaining debt on the property and fund a renovation of the space. But a Wake County judge approved an injunction and squashed the church’s motion to dismiss the case, halting the deal in its tracks.
Faith Baptist has filed an appeal.
The Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization lists the church has having nearly $12 million in assets and debts ranging between $1 million and $10 million.
What is going on here? Is The Summit poised to be a series of churches centered around JD Greear?
JD Greear tells us what was going on way back in 2013. Why The Summit Church Is Multi-site.JUNE 3, 2013 BY PASTOR JD (I made a copy of this in case it disappears.) Please read the entire post.
JD couldn’t keep up with all the preaching in all the different Summit buildings.
In 2005 we at the Summit Church moved to a multi-site strategy for spatial necessity. God was graciously bringing to our doors more people than we could handle. We were doing as many morning services as we could in our rented school facility, and were having to turn people away. So we opened another campus 3 miles down the road, where I preached between our other services at the main campus.
He plans to plant 1,000 churches in RDU and worldwide by 2050, seeking to save the lost.
We believe that at the core of our mission as a church is the commission to seek and save the lost in our city, and we believe that the presence of a local body of believers is the greatest evangelistic tool for any community. We are also a church who believes that faithful ecclesiology must trump pragmatism. We have concluded that the multi-site strategy is the best way for us to both reach our community andpractice faithful ecclesiology. We also believe that planting churches in strategic cities around the world is the New Testament’s most effective evangelistic strategy, so our vision is to plant 1000 churches in RDU and around the world by the year 2050.
He believes this multi-site model is biblically sound.
The essence of a local church is a covenant, not a manner of assembly.
…the New Testament neither demands nor uniformly models that all members of one local church are to assemble weekly in the same place.
The New Testament gives guidelines, but not specific details, on how to best organize a congregation for pastoral care and effective ministry: They wrote letters, etc.
A multi-site model is an acceptable, if not better, alternative to addressing a church’s growth by building bigger buildings or multiplying services.
I laughed out loud at this one.
The multi-site strategy is a more financially responsible response to growth than building a huge building.
Church planting will not solve the problem.
Church planting is a wonderful and effective evangelism strategy and should thus be pursued aggressively by every local church, but church planting will not provide a solution for a church’s space issues. So
Was Greear saying that the pastors he trained can’t handle his job, which appears to involve prepping sermons for “20 hours/week?”
The multi-site strategy is an excellent way for a large church to develop and maximize the use of leadership.
Pay attention to this one. His campus pastors are not as good at preaching as he is, so he’ll do most of the preaching. He still is. (Remember, this was written in 2013 and is still up on his website.)
Campus pastors are guys who are gifted leaders and good communicators, but not necessarily called teachers. Many guys, who are great leaders and pastors, do not enjoy doing what I do each week, spending 20+ hours preparing messages and deciphering vision. As campus pastors, they exercise leadership within their gifts in a way that they could not as church planters, where they must devote an exceptional amount of time to study.
He believes this model assists with the problems of a cult of personality. I need to make an observation. The JD cult exists in Raleigh. One woman, remarking on friends who left her church to go to The Summit, did so because “It’s JD this and JD that.” In my opinion, he has successfully developed a cult of personality.
I was bothered that he seems to believe his job is to give a “prepped” sermon. Isn’t the pastor’s job far more than this? Does he know the people who come to listen to him. Is he a fair and reasonable counselor?
Warning to Chatham County: It’s only the beginning.
This massive church is only the beginning of a plan to have The Summit facilities within 15 minutes of everyone in the area, which now includes Chatham County. Here is his quote from the post on his website.
It is our prayer that in by 2050 God will allow us to put campuses within 15 minutes of everyone in Raleigh-Durham (with some rare but notable exceptions in places where a Summit campus might hinder the work of another local church), as well as 1000 churches planted in cities around the world.
Greear doesn’t appear to care if other healthy churches are within his “15-minute” designation. I have already shown that there are healthy churches within a few minute’s drive of The Summit mothership. All of those churches have lost members to The Summit. He appears to be building an empire by picking off members of other churches.
Warning to potential members: Be careful about signing the church covenant.
Remember, you can attend without signing. They will happily accept your money. Depending on their desperation, you may be unable to work in the children’s center. You may not be able to vote, but all things that go out for a vote are likely preplanned to pass.
Here is a link to the church covenant
In my opinion, JD is not a pastor. He is merely a great podcaster and diligent empire-builder. Perhaps he will be like Sam Walton and become very well-to-do. His facilities may become the Walmart of churches and about as aesthetically appealing. The facilities will be convenient, and giving will be stressed. And covenant signers had better submit, or things will not go well. But that’s for another day…
When New Calvinists, like JD, refer to “church planting”, they really mean “theology planting”. They truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel (= Calvinism) to the rest of the church which has lost it. They certainly have a passion for their mission, but it is a misplaced passion. They have no trouble taking over churches by stealth and deception (which TWW has reported on several times), nor suing cities and counties to capture territory for the good of their movement.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I live in a neighborhood close to where Summit wanted/wants to expand. There was a concerted effort by residents to oppose the rezoning due to concerns about overcrowding and traffic. Anyone who’s ever had to drive past St. Thomas More in Chapel Hill after services knows what I’m talking about. Lots of people spoke at the County Commissioners meeting about it, and we were happy when the rezoning request was denied. Now it doesn’t matter what residents or the county think about how our land should be used? Nice. Jesus would be so proud of Mr. Greear.
John Mark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mr. Greears’ desire to have a Summit franchise within 15 minutes driving distance from anyone in the Triangle would be easily understood in the Muslim world!
======================================================
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen was asked:
Is there any definition of the distance between one’s house and the mosque?
He replied:
There is no specific distance defined in sharee’ah, rather that depends on ‘urf (custom) or the distance within which the adhaan can be heard without a microphone.
As’ilah al-Baab al-Maftooh, question no. 700.
Shaykh Ibn Baaz said:
The one who can hear the call to prayer given in a regular voice without amplification is obliged to respond and to come and pray in congregation in the mosque in which the call is given…
“But for those who live far away from the mosque and cannot hear the call to prayer except with amplification do not have to come to the mosque. They and those who are with them may pray in a separate congregation. If they take the trouble to attend the prayer with the congregation in the mosque whose call to prayer they cannot hear except with amplification because they are too far away, that will bring them a greater reward.
Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him), 12/58.
And Allaah knows best.”
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“It is our prayer that in by 2050 God will allow us to put campuses within 15 minutes of everyone in Raleigh-Durham”
I know God works in mysterious ways, so I wonder if Mr. Greear would ever consider that if a county votes not to allow your planned building perhaps that is the gentle leading of the Holy Spirit attempting to tell you “no” to your location of choice for your future franchise?
Instead of working with the Chatham County leaders to find an acceptable alternative, Mr. Greear chose to use the tithes of his members to unleash his cadre of well-paid attorneys to bring a lawsuit against Chatham County, whose attorneys are paid for by the tax-paying citizens of Chatham County. What a wonderful Christian testimony to the community, Mr. Greear!
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s all a grab for fame and market share.
I’m a church planter. Guess what? I never preach. That’s right, never. Church planting doesn’t happen through preaching, it happens through pairs of believers going into neighborhoods and villages where they pray for people, tell the story of Jesus and share their personal faith journey. When interested people in an area are found a new group is started in the existing home of a family. New Leaders are coached and trained to facilitate worship and lead discovery Bible study.
No preaching. Just ordinary people meeting in homes being mentored by trained leaders.
No buildings, just homes or existing community centers.
No big budge, just gas money utopia drive to the next city.
The goal of having a church within 15 minutes distance is met.
I and the people I trained have trained other leaders who have started 60+ house churches of completely new believers (no transfer members) in the last five years.
And none of you know my real name.
Because it’s not important. In fact, few of the people in the daughter and granddaughter churches here know my name either. They only know the local believers who led them to faith, who help coach them how to walk with Jesus in their community.
This is what church planting without personality cult and market share looks like.
Fisher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fisher,
Oops. Autocorrect errors
Should read: no big budget, just had money to drive to the next city.
Fisher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“It is our prayer that in by 2050 God will allow us to put campuses within 15 minutes of everyone in Raleigh-Durham”
Todd Wilhelm,
Yeeaahhh. So God sent the Angel of Lawsuits to speak to JD in his dream$.
(Maybe I shoulda skipped the upper case “g” on god.)
If the lawsuit doesn’t work for them, I wonder if JD and his elders are going to become politicians and run for the county commissioner seats….
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fisher,
Mutual respect, establishing rapport, building open and honest relationship with others and utilising homes and informal locations with no strings attached.
Sounds like a good idea. But where have I heard this before?
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So it takes a “campus …” to be a real church? The Body of Christ?
What’s that Jesus said, “Where 2 or 3 in the tens of thousands (20,000-30,000+) are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them…”
Or was it Jesus Who said, “Wherever 2 or 3, single digits, are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them, the Body of Christ.”
Somebody must be off by a few zeros.
Someone better inform Jesus that He needs a campus, all the time and everywhere. Lots of mega campuses.
The Body of Christ requires a campus, coffeeshop, theatre, green room, sound stage, worship band, light show, pastor plane(s), pastor family manse, peace garden, production company, security crew, retreat center, pastoral staff. With so much work running the dynasty, better provide an absolutely essential beachhouse in Hawaii so precious pastor can recover from running his mega org … and an Aspen ski chalet for a break from Hawaii,… aren’t Christian leader fams and their follower supporters special.
Hilariously overstated except it’s true. Ridiculously tragically true, right down to the fleet of pastor planes flying Dear Leader et al, family and inner circle supporters, around the globe until finally one day straight to the Other Place in Eternity.
One cannot possibly raise the mega bucks for a dynasty in the name of “God” without seriously taking God’s name in vain. The gods they raise funds for are four: power, pleasure, wealth, and honor.
Jesus, His disciples, and His Church, the Body of Christ, had nothing to do with this. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph themselves were anawim, the righteous least of the least.
Whatever we do to build mega churches and pastor dynasties we do unto Jesus? Nope, never. Whatever we do unto the righteous least of these among Jesus’ brethren or faithful followers, we do unto Jesus. The megas will disintegrate like chaff one day. The mega leaders and supporters will be begging Lazarus for a cup of water some day in Eternity.
Jesus was not kidding around about the Body of Christ, His people, His Church.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Also, North Raleigh has more disposable income than in their previous mothership’s location. I wonder if that had anything to do with the ‘big move.'”
D’ya think?
Lucrative geometry.
It’s really all about the math. The number of dollar bills in each wallet x the number of wallets sitting in the pews. Gravy for the gravy train.
There are somebodies somewhere in our godforsaken world who actually do church.
These business franchises that do great math are not, according to Jesus, the Body of Christ. The CEO “pastor” leaders may preach and teach the Bible. They sure as Mom’s Apple Pie don’t live it.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Franchising *is* an American invention, and JDG’s organisation seems to be a very successful operation following commercial principles. What it isn’t, it’s not a church. Nor is he a pastor. He’s a public speaker, an “influencer¹” and a manager.
The reason he’s not a pastor is that he doesn’t do most of the parts of pastoring.
If the curch is to have any hope of a future as a church, it will be along the lines outlined by Fisher above. Otherwise, it will be just another kind of business.
Oh, and BTW: why do “christian” “churches”² as some of the most privileged orgs in the US (tax-exemption, not even having to file the same reports as other charities, tax-exempt housing allowance for the pastors) cry “religious persecution” every time some of the same laws and restrictions apply to them as everyone else? It’s really not a good look.
—
¹Why do I always tend to mistype “influenza” here? 😉
²Difficult to decide where to place the quotation marks
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Todd Wilhelm,
My thoughts too….
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Meanwhile, a pastor in RDU preached last Sunday to a small crowd with a heavy heart, knowing that another family left his church for the Summit church machine. It’s a shame that J.D. doesn’t think that that pastor preaches the Gospel, simply because he isn’t as eloquent as the great, anointed J.D. Grear, and that Summit needs to build another church in order for people to come to faith. Perhaps Summit should spend money investing in the existing churches in the area, or even send some of their people to worship at those small, struggling churches.
Matt(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Of course JD makes mistakes. Mistake number one is the need for him as a career preacher, teacher, etc, and mistake number two is the need for a building.
All you need for church is believers. Church might be a living a room, a back porch, a tailgate on a pickup truck, a wagon, a table at Starbucks, a booth at Micky Dee’s, or anyway people get together.
The gospel gets shared, the pastoring gets done, and if food and drink are available communion happens.
Cut out the middle man and attend where our High Priest is leading the service!
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Someone once said “God doesn’t anoint who you pretend to be”. Folks like Mr. Greear are in the pulpit because they have touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a gimmick; don’t mistake that for the anointing. As far as preaching the Gospel, New Calvinism (Greear’s theology) is another gospel which is not the Gospel at all, but it’s working for him.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Most “lead pastors” in the New Calvinist movement would not be considered pastors in the truest sense of that sacred office. They delegate pastoral duties to others … they don’t have time to visit the sick in hospitals, the dying in nursing homes … they don’t know church members as they ought … they don’t marry nor bury folks. But they all seem to find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at the coffee shop with the dudebros.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fisher,
What?!! You mean you plant churches without big screens and fog machines?! You don’t perform your sermon on a stage in skinny jeans and expensive sneakers?! No rock band worship teams?! How in the Lord do you get people to come?!!
(sarcasm)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I bet Mr. Greear cried without tears (a preacher gimmick)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Martin Niemoller, now there was a Pastor, the real deal, a real man of courage, who wouldn’t back down from the most brutal tyrant in human history.
These self-appointed dandies in today’s pulpits?
Don’t make me laugh.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So it takes a “campus …” to be a real church? The Body of Christ?
Ava Aaronson,
Apparently that, and more….. campuses in affluent, heavily populated, prosperous areas…… the Good News to the well-to-do unreached masses…..where there’s already a church on every corner…….????…
I left the SBC in Feb. 2016…… long before all of the stuff about abuse, gospel-for-profit, and all the other stuff hit the news. The more I learn, the more I believe that I make the right decision.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Just like baiting a trap …….. actually, I think it is baiting a trap…… except the target animals have money in their pockets ….. and they get skinned a different way……
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Just to clarify, my last comment was about the type of churches Max was poking being sarcastic – not about what Fisher said.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
He is an expert in this. Remember when he cried about sex abuse victims in the SBC? No tears and no action.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Matt,
This makes me so sad. Charismatic speakers are not necessarily pastors or shepherds, and many people are just sheep. He gives them a jump-up-and-down sermon, and that equates to godliness. Perhaps I know too much about “behind the scenes.” There are hurt people out there. May that pastor love and care for his congregation. They will not get that at The Summit.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They will get church discipline though, unless they are an elder and/or a former college roommate, who has quietly been removed.
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So did Citizen Robespierre, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, the Khmer Rouge, and the Taliban.
And that End justified any Means whatsoever.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Check out Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will (Triumph des Willens) for an example of a REAL jump-up-and-down sermon. And its effect on a nationwide audience.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And on cue.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And by whoever is in charge of choosing Starbucks locations.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s called “sheep rustling”.
And it happens all the time.
My writing partner once told me that the sheep of his flock (a small Anabaptist church in rural PA) were getting rustled by a nearby slick Mega that even had a small on-campus amusement park to siphon in families with kiddies.
(Incidentally, getting to the parents by child-directed advertising is an old, old trick. As one RL Dan Draper put it in the RL Sixties, “Kids don’t come with an off switch and you can’t change the channel.”)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That looks like the spawn of a Corporate HQ and an Amazon distribution warehouse.
(At least it doesn’t have the fake little brick church facade and steeple planted onto the tilt-up walls like whats-his-face Hybels(?) Walmart-sized church.)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Con men always looking for a way to get what they want. They feel no guilt using God and his name to pump up their ideas, their views, and the pews. It is so utterly disgusting.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Comments are not for people to expound on their favorite irritant or hobby horse.” Well, this is my favorite hobby horse…
Historically, the US has had a patchwork of loosely connected community churches that met many of the social and spiritual needs of their members. The loose, heterogeneous network gave resilience to the church.
Now I am watching the local megachurch come in and decimate the community churches… In my area, for every person that joins the Megachurch 2-3 people are leaving the community churches.
You really have to wonder when they, the Megachurch, have elementary school kids in bright matching T-shirts protest the local ecumenical volunteer thank-you picnic because the ecumenical organization allows gay people to participate.
If you are into demographics. For the last several years in the US, just over six people leave Christianity for every person who becomes a Christian.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Southern Cali and East into Arizona is the Bible Belt West.
In my area, there’s a Mega-church with a parking lot so big that it ties up traffic in both directions. And yes, there are so many ‘churches’ in my area, you’d think you’re in South Carolina.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
And in the parking lot, the rides are all very high end, and the people are very well-to-do.
My eyes bugged out when I priced some of them high-end rides.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And between the Megas and Storefronts, if they were Starbucks you’d think you were in Seattle.
And the number of Sheep there are to rustle is a finite number. It’s like the DotCom boom around Y2K; even when the DotCom Startups weren’t take-the-money-and-run scams, there were dozens to hundreds of startups crowding into niche markets that could support maybe one or two tops. Guess what happened?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
davewis,
“For the last several years in the US, just over six people leave Christianity for every person who becomes a Christian.”
++++++++++++++++++
like all religions, christianity is simply what people make of it.
it’s about a caricature of Jesus of Nazareth.
it’s no more about Jesus than all the products that claim to be “Free!” and “all-natural”.
one can practice a faith based on Jesus Christ – just don’t get too close to the industry and the institution.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Believe it or not, Disney is planning an all inclusive community in Chatham County near where Summit wants its huge campus. You can read about it here: https://www.theassemblync.com/environment/disney-asteria-chatham-county-magical-place-north-carolina/
“Church planting” appears to be an incomplete business vision statement for these types of churches. If they said the quiet part out loud, it might sound like ” We aspire to plant as many churches as possible in upper income areas. Nearby university a bonus.”
Have you ever heard of one of these church franchises attempting to plant a church in an impoverished area where they could draw on the resources of their extensive network to better the lives of the people there?
Eyewitness(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Tip for Summit: if your lawsuit expressing your love to your new neighbors doesn’t work out and you’re still looking for another campus, keep an eye on the Chapel Hill Bible Church. The once thriving church has recently gone to one service in the two years since the leaders wrote a letter to concerned congregants that they might do well to go find another church where they could trust the leadership. (The congregants were concerned about the use of NDAs, potential abuse, refusal to release the GRACE report, etc.) Who could have predicted that would not go well?
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2022/12/05/2-2-chapel-hill-bible-church-is-done-talking-and-lamenting-it-tells-some-church-members-to-go-away/
Eyewitness(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Perhaps the largest growing segment of Christianity in America are the “Dones” … done with the organized church, but not done with Jesus. They didn’t leave Christianity, they left the mess that has become “church” in America where the Main Thing is not the main thing any longer.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Along with thousands of SBC messengers at the annual meeting who committed to tackling this awful issue, but returned to their home churches to get back to business as usual – not holding national SBC leaders accountable to take the matter more seriously.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
It’s clear that many people today have been psychologically and socially ‘conditioned’ over last 50yrs or more to be customers and consumers with others making a living and name for themselves as service providers and entertainers. And, in one form or another, it’s 24/7.
Critical thinking, let alone spiritual insight, has been outsourced and privatised and not for the better.
It’s also becoming clear that religious entrepreneurs – even the so called traditional orthodox ones – and their establishments are not parallel to the life and teachings of Jesus and any identity, purpose and function of the NT church.
Changes in methods, church fads, and fetishism for a particular theology/world view at best is now akin to the rebranding and marketing changes to products and services to keep customers and consumers being just that.
Don’t envisage a great awakening too soon, but praying and trusting that faithful men and women will continue to be pastorally discerning, loving and gracious in the faith communities in which they worship and serve and be and do likewise in the suburbs and towns in which they live.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The American church has largely become “Give them what they want and they will come.” Bill Hybels started the seeker-friendly way of doing church by marketing to seekers with “Tell me which way you want to go and I’ll get out in front to lead.” The mega-mania which has followed are just versions of Hybels’ methodology, producing millions of church folks content with swimming in shallow water but not having enough spiritual power to blow the dust off a peanut.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Did I read that right? The Summit tried a forceable take over of Faith and lost? I wanted more tea on that one.
I checked out Richland Creek’s website, and it seems they are not as crazy as they used to be. Got rid of the power-hungry pastor who had plastered “members must commit” all over the old website and the FB page.
Megachurches are businesses for the pastors. They should be taxed.
ishy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“We believe that at the core of our mission as a church is the commission to seek and save the lost in our city, and we believe that the presence of a local body of believers is the greatest evangelistic tool for any community. We are also a church who believes that faithful ecclesiology must trump pragmatism. We have concluded that the multi-site strategy is the best way for us to both reach our community and practice faithful ecclesiology.”
This sounds like great commission theology independent of the many other things Jesus taught — to love your neighbor as yourself, to serve others, to care for the least of these, to learn at his feet, to become spiritually transformed into the image of Christ.
The desire to have “campuses within 15 minutes of everyone in Raleigh-Durham” sure looks a lot like wanting to have campuses within 15 minutes of **affluent** ppl in the Triangle. The other issue I have with their logic is that they could donate money to other local churches to bolster their own outreach. Guess that’s why they have to include the bit about “faithful ecclesiology” so that they can go full steam ahead.
Susan(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Confession time. Many years back I was drawn into aspects of the church growth movement with people like Hybels and a founding father type called R Schuller being a part of the mix. At the time there was an anxious conversation on how best to arrest declining churches with such ‘friendly foke’ as these seeming to offer solutions. Thankfully, I had one foot in this camp and one out. More importantly though, I was privileged to meet and know a few older godly pastors – yes they exist – who were able to show that one can develop and strengthen fellowships based on christian character, genuine one on one pastoral care, pastoral care evangelism to hurting and confused non Christians, biblical preaching and teaching, and adherance to stewardship related to their paid time and usage of church assets. In short, they faithfully managed and added to what they inherited and had a good and healthy work ethic that was focused on their main responsibilities within the church and community they were linked with. More often than not they pushed back on external ministries and invitations, para church involvement, and they did not run to every conference or seminar.
Back to the issue of consumer culture today.
Did you hear about the fellow who went to spend a month or so at a monastery for spiritual enlightenment?
When he was shown his room, the attending monk said to him, “let me know if you need anything and I’ll try to help you live without it.”
Not original. Blessings.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Nope. Funny how it’s always the upper-middle suburbs desperately in need of the Franchise Gospel.
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
follow the money
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
a strategy that the early church knew well … IMO, we don’t need to go forward, we need to go back
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Now, there was a master builder within the Christian Industrial Complex! Advancing from a Drive-In Church to a Crystal Cathedral, Schuller preached the power of positive thinking – more psychology than gospel. Quite the orator, he avoided the subject of sin so as not to convict his followers. A seeker-friendly strategy that worked well for him.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They should also be identified or called out for exactly what they are. The pulpit is basically a podium for their latest marketing campaign, selling their winsome formula to extract from their audience: time, talent, treasure.
“C’mon people, let’s build this [dynasty]!” And the leader exacts his cut from the top.
It’s Jesustertainment or Chollywood at its best. The more shiny it looks, rocknroll it sounds, and Hollywood it feels, as you enter through those grand church palace doors, the greater the campaign inside to extract time, treasure, and talent from those who enter in.
What you see is what you pay for. Slick preacher with pricey skinny jeans and sneakers, sound stage light show with fog machine, hip band keeping the crowd bouncing and waving. It’s all happening and the crowd is paying.
The business is keeping Dear Preacher and his road show afloat. Does his supporter crowd admit they are there to PAY to play? The greater play, the more they pay.
A local mega here featured live Disney characters with props (Cinderella, Prince Charming, and their carriage, etc.) for their children’s programming. Hooray … pay to play, people! Children’s “church.” Odd. Silly. Awkward, really. Add a line item on the church budget … for Disney. Goofy. (Another Disney character.)
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian,
Except that Crystal Cathedral is now a Catholic Church. After Schuller died, the congregation slowly drifted away and the building had to be sold. Even Christian “empires” come and go (I’m glad the Catholic church could make good use of the building).
Linn(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord.” (Acts 5:38)
The “church” at Crystal Cathedral ‘was’ Schuller … when Schuller was done, the Cathedral was done. This is typical of personality cults. When Driscoll fell, Mars Hill was dissolved … when Hybels’ escapades were revealed, the Willow Creek model fell out of favor … when MacDonald went nuts, Harvest Chapel became a mere shell of itself … after Bickle was exposed, IHOP struggled … etc. etc. etc. The Summit franchise ‘is’ Greear, so the end is predictable when he hangs up his ESV.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Walmart of the Evangelical set? (from the TWW marquee)
It’s as funny as it is true.
It’s also as ludicrous as indulgences sold on Amazon.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve long advocated that all ‘churches’ be taxed 10% off the top.
It’s fair and it’s reasonable.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
There are THREE WalMarts within a one-mile (1600-meter) radius of me.
With the expected effects on other retailers in the area.
I rest my case.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Not just a Catholic Church, but (after a two-year repair and remodeling) the new Christ Cathedral, seat of the RCC Bishop of Orange. The Diocese had outgrown its old Cathedral in Tustin (a repurposed parish church) many years ago and was working on one in Santa Ana when the Crystal Cathedral Fire Sale dropped the property into their lap.
(There was some flak from the Christians(TM); I distinctly remember a lament that “The Gospel Will No Longer Be Preached in Crystal Cathedral” because of “a Godless apostate CULT”.)
And Schuller was still alive; within 3-5 years after he retired, his heirs (the Schuller family) ran the whole thing into the ground. Like so many lucrative Family Businesses unto the second generation.
The RCC just beat the developers who were also bidding at the resulting Bankruptcy Fire Sale.
Oh, and that HUGE pipe organ? Fully Restored.
(Better than getting bulldozed for styrofoam-and-particle-board McMansions and five-story stick-and-slab condos/apartments that nobody (except for Private Equity Investment Trusts) can afford.)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
He’s a big part of Garden Grove history. The original site of his drive-in church (a drive-in movie theater – remember them?) is now part of the expanded I-5 and a sea of three-story stick-and-slab condos (replacing the old “Cinetits” multiplex movie theater, called that for its two hemispherical dome roofs) along the State College Blvd exit just NE of the Orange Crush interchange (a threesome between I-5 and the 57 & 22).
His second church (Garden Grove Community?) still exists as a side chapel of the Cathedral (under both old and new managements). And his third (Crystal Cathedral) is now a REAL Cathedral.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And to think that they grew up under the power of positive thinking!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As if the Gospel was actually preached by Schuller and his positive thinking multi-level marketing scheme anyways.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Sheeeesh.
The closest Walmart to me is 19 miles, 25 minute drive on a good day.
The closest SBC church is 1.8 miles, a 3 minute drive……
Drive time all depends on how many farm tractors, slow pokes, and Mennonite buggies I get stuck behind.
It would be nice to have a Walmart in our rural county, but I don’t want it any closer to me than 10 miles.
Both the Walmart and the church are comparably small……. I’d rather drive the 32 miles to the Walmart in a bigger town.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Linn,
Yes Linn, have heard that was the case. Attended a small weekday meeting and tour at the Crystall Cathedral back in the early 90s and it was obvious to blind freddie that whole church structure, metaphorically speaking, was underpinned by one persons heart beats – Dr R Schuller – and that nepotism was the accepted norm.
As previously mentioned, Schuller has been somewhat of a founding father to the ‘senior pastor’ (Boss & Persona) mega church movement, and as Max rightly points out, despite the initial “successes” its a house of cards that has little if no semblance to the teachings of Christ & and identity and functions of the NT church.
As this article shows, the mentality, hubris, and exploitation continues and no doubt the end result will be the same.
Isn’t that suppose to be the definition of insanity?
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian Docker,
Not insanity to those making bank..
Jeffrey J Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In my neck of the woods, rural pastors are affectionately referred to as ‘Buggy Dodgers.” It is pretty common to serve multiple churches due to falling congregation sizes. They end up dodging buggies as they speed from location to location to preach 1st service at one location and 2nd service at another on a Sunday morning when the Amish are out in force.
davewis(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sadly, there’s one or more auto/buggy crashes in the Mennonite community near where I live. It’s often a fatal encounter for the Mennonites.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Some would say that ole Max is not culturally relevant – that’s why he complains about certain corners of the 21st century church. But the truth is, I really don’t have a big problem with form as long as there is some substance to it. After all, Jesus is the eternal contemporary … but I just can’t see Him in skinny jeans in front of big screens bathed in the smoke of fog machines, while “praise and worship” teams gyrate around Him to the whine of loud guitars and drums … followed by “Lead Pastor” sitting on a stool to deliver a Christianity Lite sermonette that leaves no lasting impact on pewsitters. Guess I’m just an old fuddy-duddy to think that the anointed preaching of the pure Gospel is enough to reach lost humanity without all the mega gimmicks.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian Docker,
Ian,
My grandmother watched Schuller religiously (she really liked the music), and I used to shudder at all the pomp and circumstance, with no real theological content. I read a couple of Schuller’s books so that I could have some talking points with my grandmother, but she never lost her infatuation with him.
Lnn(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christianity is dead in North Carolina. the Christians and churches are the coldest in the nation, no joke. especially Wake Forest. Wish I had something positive to add or say but it is what it is.
Faith Defender(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The cliche once was, methods can change but the message must remain the same.
The problem today is that many methods at best are stupid and tasteless, and at worst, manipulative & unethical.
As for the message, well it could be argued that never has there been a time and mass scale when the message has been more diluted, rescripted and exploited to suit the times and for personal gain & profit.
In short, there are many who are ashamed of the true gospel.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee,
I see Robert Morris has been charged. Golly what heartbreak and messes many churches and their leaders are causing in this country.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
https://julieroys.com/breaking-gateway-founder-robert-morris-indicted-on-child-sex-charges/?fbclid=IwY2xjawI_CgpleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHZW6wNADHD7k8IHNHEt1fBlDRMgnwKEtorS9cbBT_218EfJTxiAgi1f2aA_aem_luISPUJMeb7VHq935G3BmA
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian Docker,
“In short, there are many who are ashamed of the true gospel.”
++++++++++++
Well, guess I have to ask. What is the true gospel, and what is the false gospel?
Ever since my childhood church had a leadership change and rebranded themselves “a gospel church” (as if no one in the church, let alone any of the other churches in town, had a clue until they arrived), I’m always curious when the word gospel is thrown around.
Elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Did the New Calvinists move in? They toss the word “gospel” around a lot, but Calvinism = Gospel to them. Their “gospel” is a set of rigid doctrines ‘about’ grace rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
It’s nothing personal, it’s just bizzness.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
No, you’re not just an old fuddy-duddy. Lotsa’ folks out here in cyber-land have the same thoughts and sentiments.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Depending on who ya’ talk to, you’ll get different answers.
You’re not the only one who has the same questions, I have them too.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In practice, “Whatever I preach THAT YOU DON’T!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think there are still tours at the Cathedral under new management. If you’re still local, you might want to take another tour and see the differences.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Schuller was best known locally for his Christmas & Easter Pageant Extravaganzas.
I remember him saying in an interview that if he wasn’t a preacher he’d be a Broadway producer/director, he loved showbiz spectaculars so much. Would have been more honest if he had gone into Showbiz.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
And have turned “gospel” into just another meaningless buzzword.
In the words of the prophet Alfred Yankovic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
With the usual charge.
Yet another Anointed ManaGAWD (all genuflect) who couldn’t keep his pants zipped and had some shall se say “special preferences/Appetites”.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That “neck of the woods” wouldn’t happen to be Lancaster County in Pennsylvania?
I’m more familiar with the Gettysburg area, but I have been to Lancaster and Strasbourg; the PA State Railroad Museum is out there.
More Weird Al: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
There’s a story from years ago about one of Fred Phelps’ minions being interviewed.
When asked what she believed, she literally SPAT out “We Believe in the Doctrines of Grace!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The very Buckle of the BIBLE Belt?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As an aside, are you a railroad buff (model, history, etc)?
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hi Ishy. It was more than that… he was quietly dismissed. They’re being incredibly tight-lipped about it, but from what I gather, he was one of 4 pastors there who had affairs during their tenure, with Alvin Reid being another one of them.
Burwell Stark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hi FD. While I appreciate your sentiment, I’m happy to report that’s not true. Dee herself attends a vibrant congregation located right in the heart of Wake Forest, and my family and I serve in a local congregation north of the Triangle. Don’t let the actions of a few bad actors discourage you. The Lord is at work in NC as much as He is everywhere else.
Burwell Stark(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Bingo! Indoctrination accomplished!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Schuller was showbiz every time he stepped into his Crystal pulpit. He always provided a spectacular performance.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So how many non-Summit evangelical churches are in this same area?
I find it hard to believe there are none. I guess churches that don’t bring Greear mansions and a private jet are an abomination before the Lord.
Jon H(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Elastigirl,
Taking your question at face value and briefly.
The incarnation is considered the beginning and foundation of the gospel where Jesus – God with us – is messiah for all of humanity in word and deed.
Any rescripting or diluting of Jesus’ true identiy, his life and teaching about himself, human nature, humanities predicament, Gods will, Kingdom citizenship, the significance of grace, love, forgiveness, humility, compassion, greatness through a servant spirit, material contentment, and the essence of faith and love combined, Is a false gospel.
More specifically, the gospel is Jesus’ death and resurrection for all of humanity and what it entails concerning reconciliation and restoration for the present and the future.
Jesus referred to this as his main objective while Paul emphasised it was based on Gods grace and was of first importance.
Therefore, it could be said that the purpose of Christmas – God with us – was Easter – God for us.
Any rescripting and diluting of the historical death and resurrection of Jesus is a false gospel.
The reasons and motives as to why some people rescript and dilute the gospel and others accept this understandably varies.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian Docker,
it all sounds good…
but it seems to me that all of these things are highly interpretive, can easily be weaponized, and easily redefined in all manner of ways that are cruel, destructive, and sick.
it can mean and not mean so many things as to mean nothing at all anymore.
i’ve just decided that from here on out i’ll define it for myself, on my own informed terms (and keep my own integrity).
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
I stand corrected but I think this is somewhat similar to what David Hume said about the gospel narrative. “I don’t believe it to be true but it would be nice if it was.”
Respect you autonomy and to some degree understand your thoughts and feelings.
When I witness and hear of men, women and children suffering and being ‘sinned’ against – not to mention also my own experiences of hardship – I too go though moments of confusion, doubt and despir.
But like Peter, I eventually say to myself,
“Where do I go? He has the words of eternal life”
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian Docker,
Thanks for you reply.
to be clear, i believe Jesus is God incarnate, who was killed in a sacrificial way and then resurrected. I believe these events altered realities so humans can find God and know/experience God in their life.
Can’t say i’m really confused, or doubting or despairing.
it’s just funny… the Gospel means so much and opens so much of life up, yet at the same time is used to reduce life down to a straight jacket (of various kinds).
you don’t necessarily fall into this category.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Likewise and apologies if I misinterpreted your comments.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I like the way they say in a more expanded way in my Lutheran (LCMS) Church Jesus died, resurrected, ascended and coming again.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Just as Paul preached!
“I want to speak about the Gospel which I have previously preached to you, which you accepted, in which you are at present standing, and by which, if you remain faithful to the message I gave you, your salvation is being worked out — unless, of course, your faith had no meaning behind it at all. For I passed on to you Corinthians first of all the message I had myself received — that Christ died for our sins, as the scriptures said He would; that He was buried and rose again on the third day, again as the scriptures foretold … the glorious fact is that Christ rose from the dead: He has become the very first to rise of all who sleep the sleep of death. As death entered the world through a man, so has rising from the dead come to us through a man! As members of a sinful race all men die; as members of the Christ of God all men shall be raised to life, each in his proper order, with Christ the very first and after Him all who belong to Him when He comes” (1 Corinthians 15 Phillips)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I don’t necessarily have an opinion about The Summit Church building in Chatham County. The county has already gone through major changes in the last decade with Jim Goodnight’s Chatham Park beginning to take off in the area of Pittsboro, NC (where my parents live). There were several Pittsboro residents that fought Chatham Park, but Chatham Park came anyway. The county has prepared to take on a huge influx of people, and the Chatham Park crowd has reached out to Pittsboro residents and tried to work with those who had qualms about more people (think crunchy qualms – preserving nature, etc).
Probably, the county sees an 82,000 square foot building as just more … big stuff coming to the area. And, the area is liberal and I can see there being those on whatever board or council trying to block another church coming into the area, especially an SBC church.
Megan(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Faith Defender,
It sounds as though you have had a bad experience. When that happens, people often universalize their feeling, making vast assertions about, for example, the whole state of North Carolina vs. every other state in the United States, when it is literally impossible for them to have sufficient information to make a factual evaluation.
My son “Thor,” who insists he a scientist, not emotional like lesser humans, does this. It’s not the opening of a discussion based on facts and reason. It’s more like, “This world and everyone in it are not good enough for me.”
For what it’s worth, I wish that you and Thor – and I, and everyone – had not had the bad experiences you had.
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
Great comment elastigirl!
Thinking for one’s self and not beholden to the beliefs of others.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Megan,
“Probably, the county sees an 82,000 square foot building as just more…big stuff”
It could also be argued that others see these big stuff ‘projects’- and the egos behind them – as akin to the establishment of pseudo mini feudal kingdoms that are autocratic and have a clear pecking order.
Don’t get me going too about the land degradation & impact on the natural environmental, not to mention the aesthetics. Talk about philistines.
Bloody good example and case for ‘not in my backyard’
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ian Docker,
because acres of parking lots are so fantastic
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Faith Defender,
I’m sorry that has been your experience. After years of searching, I found a great church in Wake Forest, which has been life-giving to me. I have made friends, and when I can speak and show about something going on behind the scenes, I will demonstrate a church that has stood behind me. That does not mean they agree with everything, but they have my back. Given what I do, that is remarkable. I never thought I would find such a church.
Sometimes, the church may appear cold when they are merely allowing people who have been hurt or let down to have the space to recuperate. My husband and I sat in this church for over 2 years, just attending and watching. The pastors were friendly but left us alone, which is what we wanted. Then, we decided to join the church and they knew we were onboard, they involved us. They handled us well, and I am grateful to have that place. I hope someday you may find something that resonates with you.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Megan,
Greear appears to be saying, “They won’t let us because we are Christians, and they are just a bunch of stinking liberals.” I would be careful with that approach. We sang long ago, “They will know that we are Christians by our love.” I don’t sense a lot of that going on here. Instead, it’s “They’ll know we are Christians by the stomping of our feet.”
Christians have become a bunch of crybabies instead of demonstrating who they are.
There are already Christian churches in the area, but of course, they are not as cool and Christian as the Summit. That has come through loud and clear.
There is a way to do this, but it takes time and care, and the Summit has a job to do by picking off Christians from other churches, which it does effectively.
I became a Christian in Boston, which beats Chatham County any day of the week when it comes to “liberal.” Yet, there are many Christian churches in the Boston area. Many are covert Baptist churches like the Summit. Those churches knew how to approach that culture.
Look at the church in Rome at the start of the Christian faith. Talk about liberal. It was downright pagan. Yet, within 300 years, Christianity was the dominant faith despite the Coliseum and torture of Christians. Yet those folks knew how to do it. They showed love and humility as they went to their deaths. By so doing, they changed everything,
We Christians want things now, and if we don’t get it, we scream discrimination. We are so far removed from the early faith. It makes me sad.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Burwell Stark,
Power corrupts absolutely, even in small communities.
Politics also seems to corrupt absolutely.
As for taxation of churches, I would be fine if small churches didn’t have to, but these large megachurches are planted specifically to accrue money and power. There is nothing “nonprofit” about them.
ishy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It didn’t take long for the ‘Christian’ church (when it accrued enough power) to torture and murder the heathen and free thinkers when they refused to believe a certain way. Any whitewashing or strained apologetics of Christianity will fail fact checking rather quickly.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
ishy,
I have long advocated 10% off the top for all ‘churches’ regardless of how much money they take in.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
You speak truth, Muff.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Is that a different Greear from the one who taunted Dr Ashford?
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Do you know that he taunted Ashford? If so, send me an email.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)