Todd and Dee
“I have undertaken to translate the Bible into German. This was good for me; otherwise I might have died in the mistaken notion that I was a learned fellow.” — Martin Luther
On Friday, I fly to Tulsa to film a discussion of women and men who have come forward to speak of their sex abuse as children. You will recognize all of the folks when I post the video. However, I have committed to other sources and won’t post the video until they finish their investigations and research. I assume this will take at least two more months, although these folks are working rapidly. When the time comes, I will tell TWW readers immediately. I think you will understand why I had to wait. It should be worth it, especially for the victims involved.
After returning from Tulsa, I believe most of my work on this project will be completed. I look forward to returning to normal (at least, I think so). I already have a few posts that I look forward to discussing with you. Today’s post is on a new subject, and Friday’s post will be one from the past.
I connected with Todd Wilhelm in 2013. Until Saturday, I had only seen him in person for a few minutes. In Phoenix, we ate together with our spouses and got to know each other.
The ESV in 2016
The information presented is from a TWW post in 2016. In 2016, TWW posted Can You REALLY Trust the English Standard Version (ESV)?
It wasn’t until Dee and I began doing internet research in late 2008 and early 2009 that we learned the ESV was the Bible of choice for those who identify as Neo-Calvinists (aka New Calvinists, or Calvinistas as we call them). According to the ESV website:
The English Standard Version (ESV) is an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible in contemporary English. Created by a team of more than 100 leading evangelical scholars and pastors, the ESV Bible emphasizes “word-for-word” accuracy, literary excellence, and depth of meaning.
The ESV is essentially a revamped version of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible. When I graduated from Duke many years ago, I was presented with a navy blue RSV Bible from the university, which I still treasure.
According to information provided by Wayne Grudem:
In 1997, Crossway Books, an evangelical publisher based in Wheaton, Illinois, obtained the rights to use the 1971 update of the RSV as the basis for a new translation in the KJV tradition, to be called the English Standard Version (ESV).
Did you know the ESV was meant to be unchanged, just like the KJV?
I’m sure glad we have a screenshot of that pompous announcement.
Hopefully, those who use the ESV are aware of this recent announcement (It has since been removed but we have the original screenshot)
What were those changes that would never be changed?
Here is the complete list of word changes that have been incorporated into the ‘Permanent Text of the ESV Bible’.(It has since been removed since they are chaging the permanent text. 🙂 0
The Christianity Today article highlighted wording changes in Genesis with which many complementarians would agree (see below).
The reaction to the 2016 translation
It did not go well. The Genesis 3:16 verse was the most controversial. It mansplained women as “Those women are such contrarians that their husbands would have to keep (rule) them in line.” Scot McKnight, who was quoted in our post, wrote his opinion.
Scot McKnight wasted no time in sharing his concerns about these changes and how the translation committee went about making them. In his post entitled The New Stealth Translation: ESV, McKnight begins with this:
Guess what? The never-changing ESV is changing once again.
Dee is having a good laugh about this. The ESV and other translations like the NIV are sometimes used in my church. The pastor tends to read from them during the service. When I heard he would cover Genesis 3, I sat with my arms crossed. He had the good sense not to cover that section. It appears the ESV boys rethought their “never-changing” translation.
The Christian Post wrote ESV Bible update includes 68 word edits, reverts Genesis 3:16 translation to 2001 wording.
Edits made to the 2025 English Standard Version Bible can be found here.
The part that makes Dee both giggle and see red is this.
In the 2025 revision, the verse will revert to its 2001 translation:
“Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
The revision aligns the translation with historic English Bible versions such as the Revised Standard Version (RSV), New American Standard Bible (NASB) and New King James Version (NKJV), the TOC said
“The interpretive options can now be seen in the alternative renderings provided in the footnotes: ‘Or to, or toward, or against,'” the committee said. “The conjunction ‘but’ has been changed to ‘and’ in Genesis 3:16 and 4:7 so as not to impose a contrast that is not explicit in the Hebrew text.”
Finally
Why does this make me mad? CP quotes Scot McKnight.
At the time, McKnight told CP that the word changes had “profoundly negative implications.”
“This new translation of Genesis 3:16 suggests the curse against the woman is an act of God (a curse) that seals estrangement, alienation and tension between females and males,” he said. “By so rendering this verse, the ESV creates the impression that females and males are contrarians with one another.”
“Some think they make women rebellious and men authoritarian in response. That is a sad and potentially dangerous interpretation for it gives the wrong kind of males a ready-made excuse for domination,” he added.
I believe that the 2016 translation of Genesis 3:16 has been and will be used by extreme complementarians to dominate women who are viewed as contrarian. Those women need to be put in their place. This has been the sad history of women and the church throughout the ages. There are Christian groups today that believe women should not even be allowed to vote. Baptist Global wrote Why these Christian men believe women shouldn’t have the right to vote.
I bet the unchangeable ESV translators got an earful. I only wish they had been perceptive enough to get it right. This was a significant mistake in my book. Such translation problems cause thoughtful people to ask what else they got wrong—it looks like quite a bit. I think I’ll stick to my old NIV.
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Give the Christian Standard Bible a try. I am liking it so far. When a text actually means “men and women,” they actually translate it that way instead of saying something like “mankind.” They also use contractions where they make sense, making the text feel like it reads a little more naturally.
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At least they actually changed it in the end. I’ve never owned an ESV but the super reformed would often be toting around a large copy (bonus points if still in original packaging). I didn’t realize the ESV group had gone so far as to impose their own interpretation on this passage, but it explains some of the convoluted teaching on gender in certain circles. Sad that this reduces the relationship between men and women to a power struggle that can only be resolved by putting women in their rightful place.
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Of course, Genesis 3:16 is a curse. We have no problem mechanizing agriculture to lighten man’s curse, but complementarians make woman’s curse into an essential unchanging part of God’s will. The patriarchy, in other words. Seems to me that I read somewhere that Christ lifts the curse of sin, that there is no male or female in Christ, etc. patriarchy is a hell of a drug to get off.
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Personally, I carry the version that Jesus did … KJV 🙂
It’s the ESV Study Bible that concerns me … it’s the “sword” of choice among New Calvinists; think about it. Of course, some NeoCals idolize the MacArthur Study Bible.
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I’ve encountered a few Calvinists for whom the ESV is the be all and end all. Their idolatry of MacArthur (they will vehemently deny this if course) is on a whole other level. He can do or say no wrong in their eyes. Did anyone ever see his sales pitch for the Legacy Standard Version? Bible sales are a significant source of income for some of these guys, especially if you own the rights to the version.
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ESV is still based upon the Westcott Hort (and others) Critical Text, while the KJV is based upon the Received Text and is about 83% common with the version translated by Tyndale whom Henry VIII burned at the stake. I would avoid all bibles based upon the Critical Text. Blood was shed to give us the KJV and its Received Text predecessors (Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthews, Geneva, Bishops, Great, etc.)
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“in this final revision they have sneaked in a translation that is not only mistaken but potentially dangerously wrong. It is too bad they chose to do this just before the “Permanent Text” announcement. This sort of move, had it been done 3 revisions ago, could have been assessed publicly over time. Instead, it suddenly becomes Permanent.”-Scott McKnight
++++++++++++++
the short-sighted arrogance & scheming self-interest…. the stupidity…
as i see it, this will forever be the quintessential argument for women in christian leadership and influence in all categories.
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The site is baaaack!
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Dee wrote in the original piece: “Such translation problems cause thoughtful people to ask what else they got wrong—it looks like quite a bit.”
A few months ago I brought up an issue with the ESV on a FB group for egalitarian Christians. To my astonishment, there were a number of group members, including pastors, who did not realize that the ESV was deliberately translated to support complementarianism.
Samuel Perry has written two excellent journal articles on issues with the ESV’s translations of verses involving gender, slavery, and anti-semitism
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334708047_The_Bible_as_a_Product_of_Cultural_Power_The_Case_of_Gender_Ideology_in_the_English_Standard_Version
https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article/89/2/612/6308111?login=false
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Susan,
“a FB group for egalitarian Christians. To my astonishment, there were a number of group members, including pastors, who did not realize that the ESV was deliberately translated to support complementarianism”
++++++++++++++
sigh…..
what’s wrong with my faith fellows?
is it being too tired to scrutinize?
does it come down to things like “Right Now Media” and TGC, where all do you is plug yourself in and receive a drip feed? (what could be more convenient)
being numbed down and dumbed down?
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Remember the Ministry of Truth in 198 and what 6079 Smith W and thousands of others were doing to all written records?
And that’s become so much easier with today’s Digital Everything and Subscription Services incluing real-time update uploads.
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“Complentarianism” – A long Code Word for Handmaid’s Tale Male Supremacy.
“Just like the Manosphere, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!’
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With a lot of Christians, that’s NOT a joke.
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Just like the official Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible!
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And under the rules of Poser Struggle, there are only two possible states:
My boot stamping on Your face or Your boot stamping on My face. Nothing in-between.
Penetragtor or Penetrated, Top or Bottom, Predator or Prey, Kill or be Killed, Eat or Be Eaten.
“In the Game of Thrones, you Win or you Die. There is NO middle ground.”
— Queen Cersei Lannister, Game of Thrones
“The Strongest is always Right! The Winner is Never Asked If He Won Fairly, Only That He Has Won!’
— Adolf Hitler, cult leader
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Best wishes for the project in Tulsa. I hope it all proceeds without complications.
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I really don’t care what ‘version’ it is.
I’ll just pick the verses I like anyway.
I make em’ say what I want em’ to.
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The various theological presuppositions that feed into the translation philosophies of many English translations (with some being more overt and, oftentimes, more problematic than others, at least with respect to particular passages and/or doctrines) is one of the best reasons for Christians to invest time and effort into learning biblical languages. Yes, a rigorous academic approach to the study of Hebrew and Greek is valuable, though universities and seminaries hardly represent the only options for such learning. Quality resources for learning biblical languages (lexicography and grammar, at least) can be had for less than the cost of some English Bibles (especially the high-priced “special editions” of study Bibles featuring the name of some popular pastor).
For those who do not desire to pursue such study, I would like to suggest the New English Translation (NET). I like this translation not because it is the most consistent, most literal, or most readable. Indeed, it occasionally manifests some poor work in places that involve the translator theologizing more than translating. However, its main advantage is the accompanying translation notes, in which the translators explain (sometimes at considerable length) the lexical and grammatical factors that led to their translation choices. Accordingly, while there can still be bias reflected in the translation, it is not the kind of bias that will blindside the reader.
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Well said.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
The KJV-Only folks are a strange lot, indeed.
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Most likely because the editorial oversight committee included J.I. Packer (Theological Editor) and Wayne Grudem (General Editor) … = Calvinist idols.
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Just throwing’ somethin’ out there, and I am not targeting any TWW commenters……..
Some people firmly believe (not me, some people I know, plus Grudem, Burk, MacArthur, lots of SBC big wigs…..) that when woman was referred to as a “helper”, it meant she was subservient to man from the moment of her creation.
So…… for people who believe that, how could, “and he shall rule over you” be part of the curse?
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Since the folks you mention don’t talk about Jesus much, they obviously overlooked the fact that He came to redeem us from the curse … whatever the curse might be. In the Kingdom of God (on earth in the here and now), there is to be no distinction in race, class or gender … something the NeoCals seem to have overlooked.
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You (generic you) just cobble together some speculative nonsense, and voila!, you’re there.
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Isaiah 34:7 KJV
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Because “Friendship is Magic”….amen…
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
The Hebrew word used in Gen 2:18 for “helper” in two thirds of its occurrence relates to God as our helper and from that I think it is safe to say that “the helper is in no way inferior to the one who receives help. This is important because…..according to God’s design, therefore, the man and the woman, the husband and the wife, have been designed by God to stand together and help each other fight the battles of life. And God is there as the divine ‘helper’ to fight either them.”
(Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words).
As for the word “desire” in Gen 3:16, it is used only three times in the OT – here, Eve towards Adam; Gen 4:7, sin towards Cain; Song of Songs 7:10, the Beloved towards the maiden. The first occurrence can be viewed either positively or negatively depending on your viewpoint, the second, negatively, the third positively.
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Why do women in these churches tolerate being called the source of all the world’s problems
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I guess you are ok with the Johannie comma then and the fact that Erasmus didn’t have the last verses of Revelation when did his translation, so he took from the Latin Vulgate and is why the “tree” became “book”. But then I suppose one should ask which Received Text bible, the one with the Apocrypha or the ones without?
Other Wescott Hort bibles like the NASB, the NRSV, and others do not have the problem the ESV does.
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Dont’ forget “So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall” – 1 Samuel 25:22
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And then there’s the KJV1611-Only folks, where only the FIRST Edition is the True Word of God.
There’s a KJV1611-Only church near my writing partner; he showed it to me on one of my East Coast visits. The ONLY True Christians, maybe two dozen strong, the youngest in their Seventies.
He’s also told me Pennsylvania Dutch country is where churches go to die. You are never out of sight of a church steeple, most of them abandoned. And even before the Rise of the Megas siphoning off all the sheep, those churches that weren’t abandoned were (and are) living hand-to-mouth.
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Belated Welcome to the Herd, Jack.
P.S. Princess Celestia is a Benevolent, Approachable, even Playful god-figure. How many churches scrutinized on this blog can make that sort of claim?
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Jack,
My previous comment was meant to be a kind of black comedy parody.
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Mot,
When that’s all you hear, and you don’t get out much, and you’re told that’s the word of the Lord — well, you start to believe it.
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Lowlandseer,
Yep!
And then there’s this:
Psalm 54:4 ESV
Behold, God is my helper; the Lord is the upholder of my life.
Isaiah 41:10 ESV
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Hebrews 13:6 ESV
So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”
The ESV version of the Bible, baby, the ESV version!
Looks like they gotta rewrite the B-I-B-L-E some more.
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Lowlandseer,
I’ve just noticed that the word “either” should be “with”. Apologies
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Lee Anderson Jr.,
NET Bible Notes d and e for Genesis 3:16 – “You will want to control your husband but he will dominate you” – are somewhat speculative and the resulting translation is a poor representation of the Hebrew in my opinion.
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I suppose every theology comes up with its own Bible to back up its belief and practice, distorting Scripture where needed. Theologians sharpen their pencils, but use the eraser too. Meanwhile, absolute Truth still moves across the planet untouched by the teachings and traditions of mere men. Praise Jesus, who is the way, the TRUTH, and the life … who never changes.
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Max,
“Meanwhile, absolute Truth still moves across the planet untouched by the teachings and traditions of mere men. Praise Jesus, who is the way, the TRUTH, and the life … who never changes.”
+++++++++++++++
that’s a really nice way of putting it.
we take our theology (and ourselves) so dang seriously. (at least i used to)
God is not beholden to our theology.
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Mot,
“Why do women in these churches tolerate being called the source of all the world’s problems”
+++++++++++++
self-flagellation as a virtue?
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Ras al Ghul,
…and this gem,
“I wish that those who are troubling you would go the whole way and castrate themselves.”-Galatians 5:12
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The Matthew Bible (1527) contained all of William Tyndale’s translation (the NT and half of the OT) which Tyndale had managed to do before they murdered him. The other half of the OT was Coverdale’s translation from the Vulgate.
The Matthew Bible is being gently updated into modern English. Go to baruchhousepublishing.com to learn more about this project. I highly recommend it.
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To put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.
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Max,
Yeah.
And the apostles/disciples weren’t raking in the dough and living in lavish homes, either.
Most of the evangelical “leaders” and “pastors” who contributed to the ESV want for nothing
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Aaaannnnddd, there’s this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Standard_Version
ESV translation committee member Wayne Grudem states that approximately eight percent (or about 60,000 words) of the 1971 RSV text being used for the ESV was revised as of first publication in 2001. Grudem also states that the committee removed “every trace of liberal influence that had caused such criticism from evangelicals when the RSV was first published in 1952.”[k] Although, Grudem also states that much of the 1971 RSV text left unchanged by the committee “is simply ‘the best of the best’ of the KJV tradition.”[22]
And this on the latest edition:
In May 2024, Grudem mentioned that the ESV translation committee was planning to meet in Wheaton, Illinois, in July 2024 to consider approximately 120 suggested changes to the ESV text. He estimated that the committee would approve around 30 to 40 of these suggestions, including “little tweaks to the wording [that] make it consistent with where we’ve translated the same phrase elsewhere.”[30]
Uhmmm, did Grudem just confess to “tweaking” the Bible?
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Ah, what the heck?! A little tweak here and a little tweak there never hurt anybody … unless the anybodies are female believers who have been ensnared by the “beauty of complementarity” and other NeoCal errors regarding their ‘proper’ role in the Body of Christ.
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My son watched it when he was small. As I recall, Sparkle would learn something that episode and report it to Celestia. I remember thinking that it was a plot device borrowed from “Mork & Mindy” where Mork would report his lesson of the week to Orson.
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I thought you were a Christian Anarchist. Chaotic theology, wildly interpreting the Bible in the cause of goodness and niceness…
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Can’t go to church for sure then
Deuteronomy 23:1 states, “He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord”.
Praise be….
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I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters.
But beyond that stuff?
I am a free thinking Christian.
I tend to wind up on the poo-poo lists of both liberal and conservative dogmatists.
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Certainly Not!
He’s just reaffirming the ‘absolute’ truth that the Bible has always been.
And especially Paul’s teaching on uppity women.
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Jack,
Deuteronomy 23:1 states, “He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord”.
+++++++++++++
(how’d you find that one?? or maybe i shouldn’t ask)
seems biblical has silliness problems as well as logic problems.
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elastigirl,
Oh, it’s there! But, it’s so, you know, OT (Old Testament) (in the NT, Philip baptized the Eunuch!)
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Max,
“To put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.”
++++++++++++++++++
indeed. as far as logic and reason, i see it as the queen mutha of all fool’s errands.
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Nancy2(aka) Kevlar,
never knew you could have so much fun with a concordance! wonder if donger is listed…
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IMO, most Bible translations have been developed by a group of men needing a better fit for their own theological interpretation when they couldn’t find an existing translation that worked for them.
The Apostle Peter warned us this would happen:
“But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own personal or special interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:20)
after all:
“No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Peter 1:21)
While the above Scriptures pertain to “prophecies” recorded in Scripture, there is direct application for the whole of Scripture when mere men start tinkering with the Bible. I haven’t met a theologian yet who I felt was moved by the Holy Spirit to speak for God … on the other hand, they had a whole lot of private interpretation they would share with you.
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Max,
for all these reasons and more i take the information in the bible with a grain of salt.
i find i can appreciate it for what it is this way,
and i appreciate God/Jesus/Holy Spirit for who they are (not the different caricatures that are presented in the various outposts of christian culture).
and i’m tellin ya, my life goes so much better.
i sleep so much better. my relationships are so much better. i succeed better at what I do.
it’s kind of like learning to ride a bike (or a golf swing). it’s hard to put it into words, but we try to put it into words. the more words, the less it helps.
it’s only when you somehow let go of all the instruction and just go that it comes easily and naturally.
and despite all the biblical rhetoric, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are the most natural thing to a human being.
like the air we breath that we don’t even really think about, yet it’s always there, available to us.
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A personal encounter with the Godhead trumps what theologians and traditions/teachings of men have to offer any day of the week.
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I had a dream where Jesus told revealed to me the importance of using a jock strap in sports….the path to the Lord is always safety first…may he be praised…
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You are not a number, you are a free man…
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By the fat of my fatness, grammar is not this prophets strong point…
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Jack,
you don’t say…
no sasquatch sightings, i take it
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No, I don’t say…it was less a dream and more of a notion….or some bad dodgeball memories from grade school.
Nothing squatchy happening around here but I live on the prairie. Nearest forest is a couple of hours away and it’s been too cold to go squachin’.
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Hat tip reference to a truly great British TV series.
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Jack,
crop circles, then?
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No crops to circle on the Canadian prairies in February. Just came out of 17 days of colder than -25C (-13F).
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I guess when the ESV translation team revisited things, they decided they were not tough enough on women … so changed the text again to make sure they were under sufficient bondage. Meanwhile, the Kingdom of God (the real one) moves across the planet showing no distinction in race, class, or gender.
Pingback: Industry Digest. February 17 – February 23. The Translation Industry is Changing Fast—Here’s What You Need to Know Now! | The Language Doctors
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As of now, Oceania has Always Been at Peace with Eurasia and the chocolate ration has been Increased from twenty to ten grams.
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elastigirl,
Context is everything.
“ Is this proper for an apostle, not only to declare that the false apostles are troublemakers, to condemn them, and to hand them over to the devil but even to call evil down upon them and to wish that they would perish and be utterly destroyed—in other words, to curse them? It seems to me that Paul is making an allusion to circumcision, as though he were saying: “They are forcing you to be circumcised. I wish that they themselves would be mutilated from the very foundation and root!” Here the question arises whether Christians are permitted to curse. Yes, they are permitted to do so, but not always and not for just any reason. But when things come to the point where the Word is about to be cursed or its teaching—and, as a consequence, God Himself—blasphemed, then you must invert your sentence and say: “Blessed be the Word and God! And cursed be anything apart from the Word and from God, whether it be an apostle or an angel from heaven!” Thus Paul says earlier (1:8): “Even if we, or an angel from heaven, etc., let him be accursed.” Luther on Galatians 5:12, volumes 27 of his Works.
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Lowlandseer,
yeah… i understand the context. i’m no literalist.
in a very roundabout way i’m highlighting fair game material for theology, all of which is a patchwork quilt of at least some conjecture and being willing to err on one thing so as not to err on another.
(just like the most interesting part of a film is sometimes what’s happening the background, the things you’re not supposed to be noticing, i observe not what people affirm but what they choose to err on to make their equation work. it reveals their priorities.)
…and poking fun at how often the donger shows up in the bible as a matter of very serious discussion.
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And hilarious too!
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So taking it into serious discussion. How does one reconcile the missive in Deuteronomy as “the word of God”.
Note it states “shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord”. So my cousin who had a testicle removed due to cancer can’t go to church?
But as was pointed out above, Philip ministered to the Ethiopian eunuch but there was no congregation required.
I posit that the implication is that a “congregation” is not needed for one to accept or take part as a “Christian”. The eunuch was baptized there and then.
In fact per the book of Acts, Philip was sent specifically to the eunuch.
The inclusion of this story is no accident and probably is a clarification of the Deuteronomy missive.
And the eunuch went on his way rejoicing.
I now feel ok returning to dodgeball…. nothing is holding me back….
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Muff Potter,
people are funny, especially when they’re taking themselves & their ideas most seriously.
i’m sure we’ll be a source of humor to people several hundred years from now, when they read about us quaint 21st century folk.
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Jack,
voof… dodgeball flashbacks…
(good name for a book on processing one’s childhood)
those red rubber balls on the playground sting
i even recall some guy switching to a basketball when the yard duty wasn’t looking
but getting back to balls and the bible (another good name for a book – not what they’re expecting if i were to write it),
and reconciling all these silly, cruel, & barbaric things with the concept of The Word of God…
i go back to the concept itself. if “The Word of God” doesn’t survive the monty python treatment, i’ll laugh for all its worth.
if it doesn’t survive the M*A*S*H treatment (telling a story based on true events & calling it stupid, cruel & horrific when it was), i feel disgust for all its worth.
whatever inspiration means, whatever The Word Of God means, of necessity it comes through a human lense.
turning it into a prescriptive magic book of spells is the ultimate in black comedy.
…i dunno…
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1)Inspiration means whatever you (generic you) want it to mean, we all do it, it’s a very human thing
2)Without a human lens, The Word of God is as meaningless as Elon Musk (no humanity) giving a lecture on human morality.
3)Spells and incantations (theatre of the absurd), isn’t that what religion is all about anyway?
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Muff Potter,
“3)Spells and incantations (theatre of the absurd), isn’t that what religion is all about anyway?”
+++++++++++++++++
maybe we reflexively assign ‘magical’ to things in the ‘spiritual’ category, in an effort to understand and make it useful & practical.
‘cuz Lord knows we can’t sit still in silence with nothing to do,
adjusting to what is, that’s intangible, invisible, & inaudible,
before we start making shopping lists and thinking about lunch.
so we turn spiritual into magic spells: tasks to accomplish, & jobs for social standing & to establish a professional class, & manufactured role playing to reverse engineer a born-for purpose.
all to give ourselves benchmarks, to prove to ourselves & others that we are actually doing ‘spiritual’. (and so we can win)
but perhaps ‘spiritual’ is more real than the sidewalk. and the chair i’m sitting in. and we can conform to it, on its own terms, rather than making it into a mousetrap game for us to run through.
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elastigirl,
The word “Spiritual” has been broadened to the point it can mean anything you want it to mean.
And by example it has come to mean “unreal”.
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And the Ethiopian Orthodox Church counts their founding from this incident.
(Just as Ethiopian Jews counted their origin from King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.)
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This is pure political politics, and colossal money from their virtuously signalled monopoly on changeable downloads and sales to third denominations for unneeded replacement lectionaries.
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Personally, I think the new testament kit bashed prophecy to help christianity spread. It’s the same bait and switch that all religions do (think Mohammad’s night ride to Jerusalem on a unicorn).
So is the eunuch story true? Not to me. I try to look at all aspects, sometimes for fun, sometimes to see what shakes out.
Christian goodness and niceness was an affectation of the enlightenment.
An enlightenment that is sputtering.
Christianity is was the vanguard of the previous dark age and is the vanguard of this one.
You folks would be nice regardless of your Christian beliefs but on the whole the Bible is hate literature. So mine finally went to the recycling bin.
This blog is busy for a reason.
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Jack,
“I try to look at all aspects…see what shakes out.
Christian goodness and niceness was an affectation of the enlightenment…
…You folks would be nice regardless of your Christian beliefs but on the whole the Bible is hate literature. So mine finally went to the recycling bin.”
++++++++++++++++++
yes, i read the bible like that…
if it seems to requires that someone else be treated in a way i wouldn’t want to be treated, i let it go. or simply read it as ancient people trying to figure things out in the customs of the day.
truth be told, i consult it very occasionally. i just got tired.
christian culture was like neverending 9th grade english class, constantly having to read all these books (on penalty of something too terrible for words) that i was told were full of significance… it was a chore, but i had to play along to get a good grade.
academic requirements are an intense season, then you get a break.
christian culture is relentless, hammering on about the bible.
i needed a break.
and just like the richness of To Kill A Mockingbird that i’ll forever take with me (the only book i actually enjoyed from 9th grade that wasn’t a chore), i still take the richness of the bible with me.
as i go through life, i find it increasingly heart-warming how good and kind people are — almost everyone I come in contact with.
I’ve ridden lots of public transit – even in these capsules of people constantly incoming & outgoing, i observe brief moments of kindness to each other.
as i see it, it’s part of being “made in the image of God” – which is to say we all come from an intelligent loving life force (by any name).
we haven’t evolved away from kindness (& kindness potential). i don’t think it’s possible – as vital as lifeblood in our veins and sap in trees.
justice comes around, like a boomerang.
whatever is sputtering, these things give me some peace. (as i sit in my 1st world living room with a frig full of food)
goodness, i do carry on…
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As I understand it, the difference between Magic and Spiritual is who’s the one in charge. In Magic the mortal Sorcerer is the one controlling the Supernatural/Spiritual forces and beings.
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Introspection is a good thing.
If good people want the Bible to be good, it will be good.
If evil people want the Bible to be evil it will be evil.
Enjoy your break from christianity. It’s very freeing.
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I love the way you “carried on”, elastigirl. 🙂
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Jack,
i guess i’m pursuing my faith on my own terms, instead of the institution’s terms (staggering that functional conglomerates [christian entities] decide that for people)
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Only dead fish go with the flow.
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I for one, like hearing what you have to say.
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Arlo,
I doubt you know a single Calvinist who reveres John MacArthur. He is not reformed, and no intelligent person who finds reformed theology compelling would think he is.
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I know a ton of guys in the Gospel Coalition, along with others who claim to be Reformed, who support MacArthur.
I am not reformed and have never appreciated him.