9 Marks Finally Admits Membership *Covenants” Are Legal Documents. We Told You So! Caveat Emptor!

Endeavor’s Tour of California (near Malibu) NASA

 


“We are programmed to receive. You can check out any time you like, But you can never leave! ” Quote from the lyrics of Hotel California link


I am repeating a post about the legalities of membership covenants. I have not written about this for a long time. Some folks told me that I was one of the few writing about these contracts from a negative point of view. These are still being used today. I have received calls from people who were negatively and unfairly impacted by them. I have not changed the post at all although I wish I had been able to use Grammarly back then.


I have been writing about membership *covenants,* which I call contracts, since 2010. Back then, I wrote a post on how to get out of a membership covenant even if you are under discipline. Here is a link to that permanent posting.

Through the years, I have received several emails from pastors claiming that their covenant isn’t a contract. I told them that they would see the light if something happened in their church and they discovered that their covenants were really a contract when they consulted their lawyers. I’m not sure if these pastors were ignorant or merely trying to pull the wool over their congregations’ eyes. I’m sure some of them were ignorant, BTW.

I have had the experience to hear how numerous churches present this document before having their church members sign it. They talk about how it is a promise to care and pray for one another-a kind of “Let’s tiptoe through the tulips together” sort of a document. Unfortunately, this bed of tulips is filled with snakes, ready to bite.

Many people do not realize I have another free side job related to this blog. I am the “Dear Abby” on how to get out of a church when the church appears to want to apply retroactive church discipline.  Retroactive church discipline is a term I believe I invented to describe what some poor souls experience. Everything is going well. Then the member gets the heebie-jeebies about the church and leaves. Except, the church declares the individual to be suddenly, and without notice, “under church discipline.” They are then told that they must do something, depending on the church, to secure their release from the church discipline dungeon.

The very first person I met, who was struggling with this problem, now writes for TWW. You can read Todd’s story. which happened when he was still living in Dubai, called My, My Dubai. It is a timely reminder since it was a 9Marks church that did this and it is 9Marks that now admits that such covenants are legal contracts. Todd sent me a great picture of Dubai which I keep as a remembrance of that debacle.

What happens when you are asked to sign a covenant/covenant?

  • If the pastors don’t tell you there are legal ramifications when you sign it, then they are either deceptive or ignorant.
  • It doesn’t matter if they are ignorant.
  • If you sign it, you are legally bound by it so long as you continue to be a member of the church and you do not legally resign your membership.
  • You can legally resign your membership at any time, no matter what they say. You live in the USA and you can leave any voluntary organization at any time unless you legally owe them money.
  • You don’t have to sign a covenant to be legally bound by it. If you give verbal consent to the contract or if you repeat the vows in the contract in a meeting you are stuck. If your pastor asks people in the congregation to stand in affirmation of the contract, and you stand, you are probably stuck as well, especially if they filmed everyone standing. Some churches even hide it in the rules of membership. For example. If you join, you agree to the document
  • There are lots of other caveats. That’s why I suggest consulting a lawyer if you must sign the gosh darn thing.

If the church has the covenant and you like it, what should you do?

Don’t join. Many churches are thrilled if you give money or show up at the “Let’s clean the parking lot” Day. Sure, you can’t vote but when was the last time your vote really made a difference. It is my opinion that most churches never put anything to the vote unless they are sure of the outcome.

9Marks is the Hotel California of the evangelical set

In the many years that I have been advising on how to flee a coercive church, as far as I can remember, except a few, the church is a member of the 9Marks network or the pastor has 9Marks materials in his office. BTW, if you ever go into a pastor’s office, always look and see what books he has on display. They most likely represent his theological bent. One such office I visited, had books by John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and Mark Dever. I knew it was time to prepare my exit strategy.

A reader sent us this post at 9 Marks on July 2, 2021: Why American Courts Care about Church Membership—And Why You Should, Too.

I love the word * respect* before the word members. It rarely works that way.

American law provides reasons for churches to give careful attention to both their membership policies and the theological basis for those policies. Doing so respects the individuals who come to the church, and it can also protect the church from legal liability.

Pay very close to this next part. I have highlighted the word *internal.*

American courts have recognized that the First Amendment’s religion clauses prohibit courts from interfering with churches’ internal affairs

So long as you are a member inside the church, you are possibly subject to even the most arbitrary discipline.

Note this next line. The church has a right to define its own set of rules. They can define what should be disciplined. This means that so long as you are a member of the church, the pastors can dream up all sorts of things when it comes to discipline and there is little that you can do about it.

On many occasions, when churches have been sued for church discipline, courts have said that they cannot review the decisions of a church in carrying out its principles of discipline and self-governance.

Courts look for defined membership in legal cases.

What have I been saying for years?

If a church can point to a membership commitment or covenant that explains the biblical basis of church discipline, then there’s little chance that anyone (courts included) could be confused about the religious basis of church discipline. If the member in fact agreed to the covenant, so much the better.

It’s about protecting the church, not protecting you.

For years I have been saying that these confounded membership covenants were not created to make sure that Martha and Joe pray for the church. That sounds really spiritual and nice but that isn’t what this is about. The 9Marks author sums it up nicely.

American courts recognize that churches have a religious responsibility to govern themselves in accordance with their convictions. Church membership is thus not just a way of following biblical principles of accountability and commitment. It’s a wise way to protect the church from liability.

It’s the member’s responsibility to know these things.

I contend that it is the responsibility of the church to inform the prospective member that they are signing a legal document which will protect the church, especially if the church decides to discipline you. According to this, it appears that 9Marks has no intention of revealing the legalities inherent in signing a *covenant.* I find that troubling and so should prospective members ho should know they are signing legal documents, not a simple vow by Ethel and Fred to pray for the church.

Members and prospective members should be aware of what they’re committing to when they join a church.

Read how he writes this paragraph. If you don’t think that these covenants have legal implications, then this should convince you.

Many Americans are unaware that there’s even a difference between being a regular attendee and a member. “I’m committed to the church! I make it a priority, and I’m there consistently,” one might say. “Doesn’t that make me a member?” No, because (among other things) being a regular attendee doesn’t sufficiently clarify the nature of the relationship between the attendee and the church. There are biblical reasons to argue this, of course, but I simply want to emphasize that this also influences how many American judges have approached the issue.

The value of church membership for the average Joe appears to be tied to *allows oneself to be lovingly disciplined.*

Those who never took the step of affirming their commitment cannot expect the same commitment from the church. This includes the commitment to lovingly discipline them if they persist if the occasion requires it. Again, historically, American courts have recognized this. Perhaps they can serve as a reminder to contemporary Christians who wonder about the value of church membership.

Do biblical best practices involve signing a legally based church contract?

As one who has read the Bible for many years, I have yet to see a membership covenant being discussed in any chapter, even in the Epistles. Can anyone out there help me here? It appears the author, in keeping with Dever’s best practices, is delighted to see that the law recognizes membership[ contracts. After all, they end up protecting the church.

Apparently a church covenant is considered  For Christians, the biblical case for church membership should always be first and foremost. But it’s good to know that complying with biblical best practices also has practical legal benefits.

Take away points

  • Membership covenants are merely legal contracts that allow the church to discipline you as the church sees fit.
  • If the church does not tell you that you are signing a legal contract, you need to ask and wonder why.
  • You can quit a church anytime you wish, no matter what the covenant states. Being a member of a church is a voluntary association which means you join because you wanted to join and you leave because you wanted to leave.
  • Be sure to put in writing (and send by certified mail ) that you have rescinded your membership as of a particular date. Do not speak to them after this point. If they ask you to come to a meeting, don’t do it. If they keep bothering you, you may need to threaten legal action.
  • Don’t sign a membership contract, no matter what they call it. Many great churches do not require such devices.
  • A good church will let you attend even if you are not a member. Many churches will let you take part in many activities without membership. They also love donations from non-members.

Comments

9 Marks Finally Admits Membership *Covenants” Are Legal Documents. We Told You So! Caveat Emptor! — 51 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Warning, this is a long article. The part I have listed in italics and quotation marks is the summary last paragraph.
    I first think the 5 paragraphs may be worth a read – comparisons to the NT.

    https://www.wordofhisgrace.org/wp/church-covenants-and-membership-policies/

    “ in conclusion, church policies are legalistic and stifling, contrary to the grace of the New Covenant, confused in their ecclesiology, and easily lead to spiritual abuse and cultism. You might ask me, What would you do if you were considering membership in a church and it had a church covenant or membership policy? After being burned a couple of times in my life, I will tell you that without any hesitation I would turn and run as fast as I could!


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    A big thank you to Dee. I would never have been able to turn down a church covenant unless I had read here. I lived too long with “well if the pastor thinks it’s a good idea…..”


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    We are apt to forget the worst “church” offender of all in the regard: Scientology.


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    I’m a tad confused.
    In our form of government, religion is not allowed to meddle in the affairs of state.
    And likewise, the state is prohibited from messing with religion.
    So unless money is involved, or if said religious entity violates the law of the land, how can church ‘covenants’ be legally binding?
    It seems to me that any good judge with good standing in his or her state should simply say “settle it amongst yourselves”…
    I’m probably not the brightest penny here, so pleez, somebody enlighten me.


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    By the way, great Eagles vid!
    Saw them at the Hollywood Bowl way back in the day.


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    Church membership is thus not just a way of following biblical principles of accountability and commitment. It’s a wise way to protect the church from liability.

    Protect their church, protect their paychecks, protect their ‘reputations’…….

    Dever and his lackeys need to step down from their positions, study their Bibles thoroughly and learn how the word “covenant” is used in the Bible. (Yeah, I know that Dever and co. are probably intentionaly misusing that particular word and using it as juicy bait).
    In the 9marx churches, the covenant they insist upon members signing is is not a biblical covenant. It is an compulsory contract requiring the signees to abide by Mark Dever’s commandments.

    I wish potential members had the wisdom and foresight to ask for chapters and verses about covenants in the Bible before they signed on the dotted line. (Admission: That idea probably never would have occurred to me before I found certain blogs, TWW in particular.)


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Uhm, I have no clue how all of that became italicized. It was only supposed to be the first 2 lines.


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    Muff Potter,

    Not completely sure, Muff, but I would assume that a legal contract is a legal contract, whether it is an agreement between a lawn care service and the church, or a church member and the church.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Ha! It just registered with me…. I have been watching The Princess Bride, it came on at 9:pm ET.
    “You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”

    And Muff & Dee,
    The Eagles are my all-time favorite band. I’m not into Hotel California, But Already Gone is one of my Eagles faves.


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    Muff Potter: So unless money is involved, or if said religious entity violates the law of the land, how can church ‘covenants’ be legally binding?

    It is seen in things like harassment like a church that refuses to stop calling your house, sending letters, and contacting other people to do so. I spoke with one woman who moved 1,000 miles away from her church, which began the process of disciplining her for leaving her physically abusive husband. They continued the harassing phone calls, and members of the congregation participated. They sent letters and even contacted folks they knew in the area to determine if she was attending a church. They wanted to alert the church about her “disobedience.”

    This is considered harassment. I suggested she get an attorney to help her file a lawsuit against the church, which she did. The church realized she was serious and stopped bothering her.

    When Todd was in Dubai, and his church harassed him, he had no recourse because the laws were different there.


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    JJallday,

    I am so glad it helped you. When my husband and I decided to join our Lutheran church after observing it for 2 1/2 years, I was worried. I wondered what they might have us sign. In our class, they showed us the form. All it said is that we believed the church followed Jesus and were comfortable with the Lutheran church. Short and sweet. I was relieved. I’ve been there for 10 years and have been at peace. It is not perfect, but it works. I am committed to exposing the misuse of membership contracts. Many people are stunned when they learn what is involved.


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    After a 5 year absence, I started considering finding a church home a few months back. I looked at the website of a local church and thought maybe I should give it a try. I don’t know if this church has a “covenant” but because Dee has been shining a light on covenants and discipline, my antennae were up. And then I saw the final entry on “Our Beliefs”:

    “For purposes of this Church’s faith, doctrine, practice, policy, and discipline, our pastor (and elders, if any) are this Church’s final interpretive authority on the Bible’s meaning and application.”

    I was thinking, I haven’t even walked through the door and you guys have a policy already in place to discipline me!

    At this point, I just can’t imagine going back anywhere. Ever. Dealing with one too many greedy, creepy, and just plain mean pastors have taken a toll. The only consolation is, it’s nice to finally be able to recognize the red flags, whereas I use to just walk into a church completely blind and unaware.


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    dee: This is considered harassment. I suggested she get an attorney to help her file a lawsuit against the church, which she did. The church realized she was serious and stopped bothering her.

    So in effect, unless you (generic you) start proceedings to sue their a$$es off, they’ll continue to make your life miserable.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    You really have to wonder… I sure do not remember any “contracts” in the NT, and I agree, it takes alot of Hubris for a church to call what they come up with as a “Covenant”… I sure would not want to be an author of such a document, using verbage like OT “Covenants”…


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    Hi everyone! I took a break from TWW to focus on some other things but am thankful for this post!
    .
    What resources do you all know of for those who are former church leaders who left all churches because of these sorts of things? I’m especially interested in resources for those dealing with the betrayal of other Christians. I think my friends might still be spiritual but they are done with church altogether.
    .
    And to be candid, I’m getting close to drop kicking the church routine here in the US too… I’m weary and need protection from those people who claim to be protecting me and my family. The betrayal concept is hitting very close to home these days.


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    And, just to clarify, it’s not Park Street Church that I am referring to… but our nearby senior pastor did support CEO Mark Booker in the sham investigation from the CCCC denomination. Circle the wagons and protect a fellow theobro… and they managed to drag Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary and Christianity Today into the fray… CEO Booker is influential, but not for the good of any human soul… including his very own…
    .
    Park Street Church has its Annual (Now Gaslighting) Meeting coming up on February 23rd… CEO Booker’s chess game is still playing out to his advantage, his personal advantage alone. The 2024 Annual Report is out and it has adoring photos of him and a lengthy humble-brag introductory letter from him. Classic revisionist history examples throughout…
    .
    https://www.parkstreet.org/about-us/annual-meeting-2024/
    .
    Don’t miss the Solemn (Abomination) Assembly full bulletin included at the end of the Annual Report… sad day in 2024!


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    I can help you out, Dee, although not to justify membership contracts. Matthew 5:37: But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

    Seems to me a good reason for avoiding them, as if other reasons weren’t enough.


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    Phoenix,

    Yup..


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    Friend of Park Street Church,

    i’m sorry for these circumstances.

    i’d say find new friends. the whole world of interesting and good-hearted human beings is available to you.


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    “9 Marks Finally Admits Membership *Covenants” Are Legal Documents”

    Anyone with a lick of sense would have known this. My apologies to Wartburgers who didn’t have a lick of sense when they signed one (including me!)

    Beware of church leaders who put a membership “contract” in front of you and say “You can trust us.” Good Lord, TWW is an ongoing chronicle documenting why you can’t trust much of the American pulpit!

    (yeah, ole Max still stops by occasionally)


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ariel: “For purposes of this Church’s faith, doctrine, practice, policy, and discipline, our pastor (and elders, if any) are this Church’s final interpretive authority on the Bible’s meaning and application.”

    That is what I’m talking about. They want you to sign up and “trust” someone you don’t know to “discipline” you.


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    Max!

    I was a little worried about you! Hadn’t heard from you in a little bit. Glad you’re back!


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    dee: They want you to sign up and “trust” someone you don’t know to “discipline” you.

    Sign on the bottom line in a 9Marx church and you become a glutton for punishment … with shunning and excommunication in your future if you zig when they say zag. “Trust” may result in getting the spiritual daylights disciplined out of you.


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    As far as churches go, even if you signed a “pledge” to donate, that is not considered a contract. It is not binding, and you are not obligated to fulfill it.

    I strongly urge that, if you are making donations to any group (Christian or secular), you know how to turn them OFF should that become necessary. Because any donations made are NOT refundable per IRS regulations, absent some evidence of fraud.

    And when you do plan to leave, turn OFF the donations first, then send the formal letter of resignation (via certified mail with return receipt requested). And, as Dee has said many times, DO NOT RESPOND to any further communication from them.


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    Muff Potter:
    I’m a tad confused.
    In our form of government, religion is not allowed to meddle in the affairs of state.
    And likewise, the state is prohibited from messing with religion.
    So unless money is involved, or if said religious entity violates the law of the land, how can church ‘covenants’ be legally binding?
    It seems to me that any good judge with good standing in his or her state should simply say “settle it amongst yourselves”…
    I’m probably not the brightest penny here, so pleez, somebody enlighten me.

    It’s called the “ecclesiastical doctrine”. It says that when it comes to the internal affairs of a church (such as, who is and is not a member), the courts cannot interfere due to the First Amendment. Therefore, if you are removed from membership, a court will not – in fact, it cannot – hear the case.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It’s called the “ecclesiastical doctrine”. It says that when it comes to the internal affairs of a church (such as, who is and is not a member), the courts cannot interfere due to the First Amendment. Therefore, if you are removed from membership, a court will not – in fact, it cannot – hear the case.


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    kb7lx7t7qd,

    Another ‘get-rich-quick-scheme’?
    I’ve pretty much seen em’ all.


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    kb7lx7t7qd:
    It’s called the “ecclesiastical doctrine”. It says that when it comes to the internal affairs of a church (such as, who is and is not a member), the courts cannot interfere due to the First Amendment. Therefore, if you are removed from membership, a court will not – in fact, it cannot – hear the case.

    There arealways caveats in the law. If the church pursues a member after they have left the church, the former member can sue for damages. When they leave and, in writing, break the “covenant which I call a contract,” then the former member is free and clear of any church decision. In other words, don’t put them on church discpline after they leave or they can sue.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Is that Patterson with a ‘trophy’ leopard?
    Wouldn’t it be just deserts if there was a hunter from space who would make a trophy of him.


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    When you trust the gospel (I Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Romans 4:24,25), you immediately become a member of the Body of Christ. No need to sign any membership covenants or membership cards. Don’t fall for any con men in pulpits


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    Troy,

    “When you trust the gospel (I Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Romans 4:24,25), you immediately become a member of the Body of Christ.”
    +++++++++++++++

    i appreciated your comment – but isn’t it God/Jesus/Holy Spirit who we trust? (an awkward name, but it’s important to me not to leave any of them out)

    i’ve long marveled at how christianity has developed into a religion based on trust in the bible. and more recently a religion based on trust in the Gospel.

    how did this happen?

    how, in practice & function, did the person of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit fade away and be subsumed by ideas that relate in some way to ‘them’?

    to the point that even God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is/are subordinate to these ideas, to one’s chosen biblical interpretation.

    (well, I reckon christian powerbrokers are scaredy cats, terrified of losing power & wealth & influence & significance. and engineered calculations & formulas are better for business than faith & trust in an invisible being.)


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    Muff Potter,

    “Wouldn’t it be just deserts if there was a hunter from space who would make a trophy of him.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i’ll make the comic book.


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    elastigirl: how, in practice & function, did the person of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit fade away and be subsumed by ideas that relate in some way to ‘them’?

    Yes this.

    Yet it remains unclear as to how to access or apprehend the person or being of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. There are many doors and there are no doors. The One True Door is reveals only the trickster.


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    Troy: When you trust the gospel (I Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Romans 4:24,25), you immediately become a member of the Body of Christ. No need to sign any membership covenants or membership cards. Don’t fall for any con men in pulpits

    Exactly. The only covenant a believer is to enter into is the one written in red by Jesus. No church contracts necessary – they have nothing to do with living in the Kingdom of God, on earth in the here and now.


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    Troy,

    Exactly..


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    JJallday: I lived too long with “well if the pastor thinks it’s a good idea…..”

    It’s called “Priestcraft”: YOur only reason for existence is to Pay, Pray, and OBEY THe Priests.

    This general principle also applies:
    “If you vote for someone just because your favorite rock star does, YOU’RE DUMBER THAN WE ARE!”
    — Alice Cooper


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    Sandy: The One True Door is reveals only the trickster.

    And you don’t want to get involved with trickster deities.
    In one word: LOKI.


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    Muff Potter: Is that Patterson with a ‘trophy’ leopard?

    Surprised he didn’t put it in his stained-glass window.

    James MacDonald and Sean Feucht were also Great White Hunters; Feucht’s man cave in Dana Point (one of the most expensive places to live in SoCal) even has a trophy room of all his canned-hunt trophies.

    For the memoirs of a REAL White Hunter (and an anecdotal oral history of Colonial-era East Africa), check out J.A.Hunter’s Tales of the African Frontier.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,
    P.S. Also check out Man-eaters of Kumaon by Jim Corbett, a Real White Hunter in the foothills of the Himalayas during the British Raj who specialzed in “Man-eater Removal”. There’s a National Park in India named for him– renamed for him AFTER India’s independence.


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    Muff Potter: So in effect, unless you (generic you) start proceedings to sue their a$$es off, they’ll continue to make your life miserable.

    Like a Mad Scientist levelling a city, it’s something you have to do before anyone will take you seriously.


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    Max: Trust” may result in getting the spiritual daylights disciplined out of you.

    “So what if I rack him ’til he die? I shall have Saved His Soul.’
    — “The Inquisitor”, Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court by Mark Twain


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    elastigirl:
    Friend of Park Street Church,

    i’m sorry for these circumstances.

    i’d say find new friends.the whole world of interesting and good-hearted human beings is available to you.

    What pulled me out of an control freakshow end-of-the-world “Christian Fellowship” in 1975 wa discovering Dungeons & Dragons and its ties OUTSIDE that “Christian Fellowship”.

    There’s a reason these churches want you in Church 24/7 doing only Church things with only Church friends (NO contact with those Heathens on the outside), offering “Just like Fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN!” Counterfeits of everything outside Church. i.e. Consolation/Booby Prizes for those Forbidden the real thing.


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    Muff Potter,

    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I have no issues with beginner hunters having guides and a few aids -preferably local people – JMO – whether the hunters are juveniles or adults. And I do understand that some countries/territories require guides, and large game hunt takes more than one person to manage, etc,. (Honestly, I would be scared out of my wits to go hunting in Africa all alone. That would be stupid,) BUT…..

    IM-backwoods-country-girl-O, experienced hunters who have to have hunting guides plus the whole entourage,fenced-in game, drivers, trackers, skinners, cooks…( maybe even a high-end hunting lodge or hotel to stay at), and people to do all of the dirty work for them, are nothing more than overgrown juveniles who like to play with guns and and brag. (Fenced-in game…..REALLY? Colonial territories didn’t even do that for British royalty.)

    “Daddy, bait my hook.” ?????

    To top it off, Patterson’s game hunts are paid for through sacrificial donations made by members of SBC churches. Patterson and his ilk need to donate more money to the their churches, just camp out in their backyards, and play paintball.

    https://baptistnews.com/article/as-seminary-enrollment-dropped-and-expenses-rose-trustees-gave-patterson-a-25000-vacation-fund/


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): (Fenced-in game…..REALLY? Colonial territories didn’t even do that for British royalty.)

    It’s called a ‘canned hunt’.
    JMac of Chicago had a private deer herd for his personal canned hunts.
    You want to see a real hunter fly into a rage, just mention the term to him.

    Some of the unwritten rules of real big-game hunting is that the quarry must have a reasonable chance to evade or escape and that the hunter must be in real danger from the quarry. canned hunts fail on both counts.

    I’ll believe these wannabes are real hunters when they go after Cape Buffalo on foot.
    (Cape Buffalo is considered the most dangerous animal to hunt in all Africa; more hunters have been killed going after Cape Buffalo than any other quarry.)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: James MacDonald and Sean Feucht were also Great White Hunters; Feucht’s man cave in Dana Point (one of the most expensive places to live in SoCal) even has a trophy room of all his canned-hunt trophies.

    What I’ll never be able to understand, is how people still plunk down their hard earned greenbacks for these jokers.


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    Muff Potter: What I’ll never be able to understand, is how people still plunk down their hard earned greenbacks for these jokers.

    Because God Will Punish Them if they don’t.
    “Touch Not Mine Anointed” mixed with Pharoah’s Mummy from that Courage the Cowardly Dog episode, pointing a quivering bony finger and intoning “CURSE… CURSE… CURSE…”


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    What happens when you are asked to sign a covenant/covenant?

    “Asked” in the same sense as Signing that Timeshare contract?

    Do not speak to them after this point. If they ask you to come to a meeting, don’t do it.

    Because you are getting out of their Timeshare.

    Church membership is thus not just a way of following biblical principles of accountability and commitment. It’s a wise way to protect the church from liability.

    At WHOSE expense?
    In the Zero-Sum Game, for someone to win, someone else has to lose.
    In the Zero-Sum Game, the only way to win is to MAKE the other guy lose.

    it appears that 9Marks has no intention of revealing the legalities inherent in signing a *covenant.*

    At which point, we have Deception.
    Lying by Omission to deceive the sucker into signing his/her life away for the other party’s gain.
    How Godly.


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    Godith:
    We are apt to forget the worst “church” offender of all in the regard: Scientology.

    With its BILLION-year contracts, reincarnation thru reincarnation thru reincarnation.
    “Death will not release you.” — old SF litfan saying


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    elastigirl: i appreciated your comment – but isn’t it God/Jesus/Holy Spirit who we trust? (an awkward name, but it’s important to me not to leave any of them out)
    i’ve long marveled at how christianity has developed into a religion based on trust in the bible. and more recently a religion based on trust in the Gospel.
    how did this happen?
    how, in practice & function, did the person of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit fade away and be subsumed by ideas that relate in some way to ‘them’?
    to the point that even God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is/are subordinate to these ideas, to one’s chosen biblical interpretation.
    (well, I reckon christian powerbrokers are scaredy cats, terrified of losing power & wealth & influence & significance. and engineered calculations & formulas are better for business than faith & trust in an invisible being.)

    .
    I’ve thought about this so much since you posted it and I read it. I’ve noticed how much some people don’t talk about our Creator and Rescuer (Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit) and instead use so many substitutes. It’s actually very concerning.
    .
    Thank you for sharing this observation. It is helping me think through a number of things.