I spent over 10 years in a PCA ‘church’. I can attest to the coldness of leadership and lack of pastoral care. The people in attendance were mostly king and loving, however. Leadership was the issue.

I’m not sure how much voice women have in governance in the PCA beyond the local congregation. The local area sessions and the general assembly seems to consist of elders only who must be male. All communing members of a congregation do have the right to vote on calling a pastor (aka teaching elder) or electing congregational ruling elders (though the session can veto).

Honestly, this sounds less like a legal threat and more like a procedural effort to update or correct the public record with their findings. Sending out form letters requesting updates seems in line with that.

You can probably leave your old post up with an editor’s note at the bottom regarding the recent events and communication, much like newspapers will print updates or corrections at the bottom of an online copy of their story. I don’t see anything in their letter that would “require” more than that.

I can say from personal experience that the kangaroo courts of the PCA are a joke. Fortunately, you do not have to take my word for it. I would like to remind everyone of the Christianity Today article titled “The Presbyterian Church in America Has an Abuse Crises Too” which states that the abuse victims suffered in the PCA courts was worse than the original abuse. In other words, the PCA courts are more than useless.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2023/06/presbyterian-church-in-america-abuse-response/

Finally, I have a question for everyone. Is the Herron case the one where the PCA gave the green light for pastors to sue their accusers?

Ava Aaronson: Accounts like this indicate, “Stay away from this leadership, org, denom, and all involved.”

Unless you are:
1) a Male who always wants and gets his way, especially of the “God says guys, only guys, and all guys rule” variety. “Women’s voices, say what?”
2) Males, only males, control the narrative, especially at church. (Yesterday there was a story about a nonReligious person saying publicly that a certain ME Religion had violent tendencies. Then a Middle Easterner of that religion protested by beating up the first guy. Duh. On point.)
3) a supporter of #1 and #2 above. And, yes, these My Way or the Highway guys definitely have their supporters.

Good job, PCA! I’m republishing EVERYTHING!

Fellow bloggers, last one to publish is a rotten egg!

EW66: I’ve been binging on Sons of Patriarchy and Bodies Behind the Bus podcasts. The common theme is the lack of the PCA presbytery board doing anything to defrock or deter abusive pastors

“One Hand Washes the Other…”?

Yvonne: I spent over 10 years in a PCA ‘church’. I can attest to the coldness of leadership and lack of pastoral care. The people in attendance were mostly kind and loving, however. Leadership was the issue.

This has been a common theme in TWW reports. Why is it that so many church leaders are cold, while church members are kind and loving? Why is that so many church members continue to go to churches where leaders don’t really care about them? A kind and loving pew should be sick and tired of a cold and lifeless pulpit. This ain’t church!

3. Other Kinds of Lawsuits
Troubling questions could be raised if 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 is understood as disallowing all civil lawsuits between Christians. For example, unless a contract between Christian A and Christian B contains a clause stipulating that some ecclesiastical body will render a binding arbitration decision for all disputes, the threat of going to the civil magistrate is always implicit in any contract. The PCA and PCA Agencies have involved civil magistrates to settle various matters with people who were not regarded as unbelievers. If civil
31 See commentaries by Fee (1987), Winter (1994), Blomberg (1995), Thiselton
(2000), Garland (2003), Ciampa & Rosner (2010), Hays (2011), Riddlebarger
(2013), Oropeza (2017), and Brookins (2020),L

MINUTES OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
lawsuits between believers are always unbiblical, then the following would presumably be prohibited for a Christian if the other party is also a Christian:
1. Civil divorce lawsuit where the plaintiff has biblical grounds
2.Lawsuit for child custody, child support, or visitation rights
3. Filing for an injunction or a restraining order against an abuser
4.Professional malpractice lawsuit
5. Wrongful termination lawsuit
6.Personal injury lawsuit
7.Sexual harassment lawsuit against church officers (not involving
criminal offense)
8. Civil lawsuit for damage against child abusers
9.Filing for a protection order for elder abuse, stalking, etc.
10. Churches seeking a no trespassing order from a civil court

4. Summary
Given the analysis above, we cannot conclude that all civil lawsuits filed by Christians against other Christians are sinful. Thus, in a case such as the one before us, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to demonstrate that the particular lawsuit in question was sinful, whether because of the context of the lawsuit or its content. The prosecution did not meet that burden in this Case.

Max,

Yes, and then the collective aspired leaders becomes ‘group think’ with minimal collective self-awareness.
Unlike other religions and social and political systems. Jesus has left us with the most tangible and unambiguous model for ‘leadership’ – faith, wisdom, grace, humility, servant heart, – yet many who aspire for leadership in the body of Christ manifest ignorance of this clear divine model or through their actions & inactions seemed to be ashamed of it. Perplexing to say the least, yet needs to be called out.

dee: I wonder if the PCA intended for that to happen.

What? Intimidation and manipulation? Aren’t those in the toolkit of most denominational hierarchies these days when their idols and systems are challenged?

Max: What?Intimidation and manipulation?Aren’t those in the toolkit of most denominational hierarchies these days when their idols and systems are challenged?

They’re also in the standard toolkit of non-denominational non-heirarchical churches.
You know, all those totally-independent “Christian Fellowships” and “New Testament Churches”?
(Was going to say “small independent” but a lot of them these days take the Mega or wannabe-Mega route.)

dee: The theodudes are in control of this one. I believe that there is no church, no matter how conservative the view on the role of women, that cannot assemble a group of women to advise the testosterone.

Except for the myth that it’s actually Holy Water.

Ian Docker: Jesus has left us with the most tangible and unambiguous model for ‘leadership’ – faith, wisdom, grace, humility, servant heart, – yet many who aspire for leadership in the body of Christ manifest ignorance of this clear divine model or through their actions & inactions seemed to be ashamed of it. Perplexing to say the least, yet needs to be called out.

Yes, Jesus is the model as you well describe, and yes, all of the fraud needs to be called out. The fruit of the Holy Spirit, as listed in Galatians, vs the fruit of the Flesh, also listed in Galatians

I also found Kara’s account believable.

However, if we did a thought experiment such that a woman in a church is misinterpreting physical interactions with a pastor who is a “big man” with a “charismatic” presence as he describes himself.

If a big man with a charismatic presence *and* a heart to be like Jesus found out that is how his actions were being interpreted, how would he react?

Might he take the time to reflect on how a big man “towering” over a smaller woman might might be experienced by her or other women? Might he reflect on 1 Peter 3:7 where even husbands are admonished to treat their wives with honor as the weaker vessel? Might he wonder if this is why that verse was written, to cause men to reflect on how their typically greater size and physical strength might otherwise be intimidating without an overt intention to honor and respect her?

Might her discomfort with his interactions cause him to think about how he could modify his approach so that women perceived him as a safe presence? If he was aware that he “towers over” others, could he decide that when at all possible, he would stand back a little further or even try to sit down when interacting with shorter people?

If he truly never intended to intimidate or be perceived as “making a pass” would he consider how he should modify his “freedom” to care for the “weaker” sister per 1 Cor 8 instead of declaring that this was just the way he was? Would he take time to evaluate what words, gestures or humor he was using that caused a woman in his flock to see him as unsafe and make an effort to change for her sake?

Instead, his responses sound self-centered, entitled, and angry. And they fit DARVO to a T.

He wants her to adjust to him and sees no reason for him to adjust to her.

And this is in a thought experiment where a big charismatic man actually is being misperceived by a woman in his congregation.

Eyewitness,

That was a very insightful comment.

Eyewitness: Instead, his responses sound self-centered, entitled, and angry. And they fit DARVO to a T.

He wants her to adjust to him and sees no reason for him to adjust to her.

Or, he is using plausible deniability to test her out, groom her to submission, see what he can get away with, see if the Fear Factor will cower her into submission, see what he can do to get his way with her… to have his way with her in the whole scheme of male hierarchy in the church that is always “blessed” or deemed by God or rather god, to always have his, as male clergy – the double whammy of power – way with women.

She didn’t cower, didn’t take the bait, didn’t submit, didn’t fear, didn’t hide, didn’t shut up or shut down about the game playing, manipulating, intimidating, and dominating of this managawd guy. Nope.

Ian Docker: Yes, and then the collective aspired leaders becomes ‘group think’ with minimal collective self-awareness.

And absolutely deaf regarding women’s voices. It is, after all, a woman calling out the inappropriate behavior of their clergyman. Instead of heeding her experience as a warning, they silence her outcry and back the male problem guy.

When women warn and men don’t listen: demise, disaster, and the worst possible outcomes happen.

Israel’s female spotters are free – now their families want to know why warnings were ignored https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/01/israels-female-spotters-are-free-now-their-families-want-to-know-why-warnings-were-ignored?CMP=share_btn_url

Max: as they ought

meant to say “than they ought”

When I read articles like this and think of the maneuvering in religious ivory towers to protect their own, a Scripture pops to mind “There is death in the pot!” (2 Kings 4:40)

Headless Unicorn Guy: Eyewitness: “Church hierarchy finds church leader not guilty”

AKA “One Hand Washes the Other’

So that in the end, they’re both dirty.

dee,

“I believe that there is no church, no matter how conservative the view on the role of women, that cannot assemble a group of women to advise the testosterone. There is nothing in Scripture that says this is not allowed so long as they are not called “pastor,” “elder,” or whatever. They will not do it.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++

at their own peril, then.

Kathy Fisher,

“I believe it did, and he went on to sue 2 other women after the SJC’s decision. ”
+++++++++++++++

“I was deprived of the opportunity to speak in my own defense.”

“The verdict contains numerous pieces of false and/or misleading information about me, and I was never given the chance to correct the record on any it.”

https://medium.com/@million.kara.m/the-scapegoat-speaks-an-open-letter-to-the-presbyterian-church-in-america-8cf91ab5681c

Phil Snyder: he answer to my question was in the Christianity Today article “The Presbyterian Church in America Has an Abuse Crises Too”. So yes, it was the Daniel Herron case which the PCA used to give the green light to pastors to sue their accusers. My apologies for not reading the article again. I encourage everyone to take the time to read it at some point.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2023/06/presbyterian-church-in-america-abuse-response/

Thanks! Very informative. In addition to reporting the PCA’s “Supreme Court” ruling favoring Herron, CT also shared an example of a church that handled an abuse allegation correctly:

“We didn’t do this through the church courts,” Cunningham said. “Presbyteries and elders–none of us are trained in abuse and trauma. … Bring in experts.” In other situations, he noted, “churches aren’t scared to reach outside the church and bring in the legal experts to tell them what to do!”

Tates Creek is the exception, abuse advocates say…

This is key, I think. They didn’t try to do it themselves. They recognized their limitations.

It is understandable that church leaders, like other people in the world, are ignorant about the dynamics of abuse and will likely bungle the way they handle it if they try to do it on their own. What sets this church apart is their willingness to, in humility, acknowledge their ignorance. It’s arrogance that is one of the sins at the core of so much poor handling of abuse. That arrogance is likely often due to self-deceit of underestimating the frailties of being human. We all lack omniscience, we have a tendency to protect our tribe, we are susceptible to “group think, and humans assign more credibility to the testimony of people they know than to people they don’t, etc. Combined with overestimating their ability to hear from God unaffected by these things, and it’s a disaster for the victim and the church.

Phil Snyder,

My earlier post at 03.18pm on 1st Feb was a direct quote from the PCA records of the case and is less of a “green light” than a cautious evaluation of the circumstances whereby a civil case can be pursued.

To start with Calvin + “ To speak more plainly, the reason why Paul condemns law-suits is, that we ought to suffer injuries with patience. Let us now see whether any one can carry on a law-suit without impatience; for if it is so, to go to law will not be wrong in all cases, but only ἐπὶ τὸ πολύ—for the most part. I confess, however, that as men’s manners are corrupt, impatience, or lack of patience (as they speak) is an almost inseparable attendant on law-suits. This, however, does not hinder your distinguishing between the thing itself and the improper accompaniment. Let us therefore bear in mind, that Paul does not condemn law-suits on the ground of its being a wrong thing in itself to maintain a good cause by having recourse to a magistrate, but because it is almost invariably accompanied with corrupt dispositions; as, for example, violence, desire of revenge, enmities, obstinacy, and the like..”

Did the PCA examine the motives for a civil complaint? It’s not enough to say he said he felt defamed. They had to conduct a rigorous enquiry and they didn’t do that in my opinion.

Morris says – “ It is extraordinary that brother should want to go to law with brother at all. But if he did, it was even more extraordinary that he should do so before unbelievers. This last word is without the article: it is their quality as lacking faith to which Paul draws attention. 7. To go to law with a brother is a defeat in itself, whatever the outcome of the legal process. You have lawsuits might be translated ‘you get judgments (krimata)’. The gaining of the verdict matters little. The cause is already lost when a Christian institutes a lawsuit. The injurious effects are implied in the expression ‘among yourselves’; the injury is to the body of Christ, not to outsiders. More biting questions drive home the point that a real victory might be obtained rather by choosing to be wronged, to be cheated. Jesus taught his followers to turn the other cheek, and, when sued at law for their tunic, to yield up their cloak as well (Matt. 5:39–40), and he set them an example (1 Pet. 2:23). But the Corinthians were far from basic Christian principles. Indeed, they were far behind the best Greek thought, for Plato can say that it is better to suffer wrong than to do wrong (Gorgias 509C).”

It looks, at the very least, there was a degree of leniency shown to the pastor that was not merited or even appropriate. Where is the evenhandedness and blind justice? Add to that they didn’t involve GRACE only adds to the injustice. Again, in my opinion.

Joyce Rohe,
I attended ~37/40 hours of the PCA V Herron trial. The Presbytery did find a presumption of guilt, but because there was so much controversy they requested the SJC to take original jurisdiction for the trial. The defense was represented by a professional lawyer, who is a partner at a prominent law firm in the state. He also had been a ruling elder in the presbytery at one time. IMO the Presbytery’s prosecutor had no idea what he was in for. The defense lawyer showed up with at least one additional lawyer and two legal aids or lawyers, plus four bankers boxes full of documents. They were there for the full trial, no idea if they were compensated. IMO the proceedings were conducted as a civil trial might be and I felt a real absence of regard for spiritual concerns as laid out in Scripture. According to her and against her will, one of the defendants was not allowed to give testimony. It was determined to use her deposition materials from the civil trial in place of her testimony.

dee: My guess is that we will hear more stories like this in the future.

The women understood the “clergyman” dude’s rapprochement. Despite the dude’s clergy costume, they saw right through to who he really is and what this guy is about. He commanded the room. They read the room. Clearly, at that point, one leaves the room.

Women have been warning about these types, and they are a TYPE, forever. Churches would be wise to heed the warning. But no, since WOMEN have spotted the fraud, churches ignore the women and embrace the fraud.

Women announced the Resurrection. They were dissed.

More recently, women spotters warned Israel about Hamas before this latest attack in 2023. Chauvinism and complacency among the male authority higher-ups ignored the warnings so hostages were taken and there is war. See link to Guardian article, 2.1.2025.

Fortunately, with the Internet and blogs like TWW, we can all be warned about “clergy” frauds despite church leadership chauvinism and complacency. The gatekeepers that are off the rails can be ignored. Hear the women. Identify the rapprochement of these TYPES. Leave the room.

The Bible served to clean up corruption in the Medieval Church. The Internet serves likewise today. Both are from God. Ever grateful to God, for the Bible, for the women spotters, for the Internet, for the open door out of each room commanded by a “clergy” fraudster and his pals, and for the better place among God and His faithful (not fraudsters).

Wait, this is new to me: “Dr. Million asserts that `.sexual harassment” does not always have to be specifically about sexual behavior or directed at a specific person. Dr. Million believes that statements or actions which a woman personally perceives as sexually suggestive or uncomfortable are “sexual harassment” regardless of the intent of the person who was perceived as engaging in such actions, and regardless of any legal definition of that ten. On this basis, Dr, Million chose to label Dan Herron a “sexual harasser”.

That’s wild. He doesn’t have to intentionally harass her for her to be harassed? She admitted this is why she said he harassed her?

elastigirl: i know a man who i hate getting hugs from. i try to circumvent it. something about his hands…. they are too handsy, fingertips are too much a part of it.

I’ve heard this very same thing from other women.
My wife grew up in Northern Minnesota, and can recount tales of a church guy who was also ‘very hands on’.

Muff Potter,

Public Service Anouncement: you don’t need to hug people

(except for my family and close friends – but even there, it’s what the other person is comfortable with)

elastigirl,

elastigirl,

Amen and hell yeah, keep yer’ (generic your) gall-dang hands to yerself.
And if somebody gets ‘offended’ cuz’ you don’t do the touchy feely?
Tough toe nails.

Muff Potter: Amen and hell yeah, keep yer’ (generic your) gall-dang hands to yerself.

Somewhere the Church lost its way with regard to boundaries.

Maybe when the Male Hierarchy instituted Male Supremacy Theology so Any and All Things Male goes? No end in sight. Millstones around the neck sunk into the Deep Blue far beyond the world of Spongebob.

Or was it when the clergy established itself as a Hierarchical Salaried Self-proclaimed and Self-promoted Class (with Never enough $$$ collected for the hidden clergy salaries so now there are fleets of pastors’ planes and such)? Bottomless black hole of clergy consumption. According to the Rich Man and Lazarus, this does not end well.

In any case, boundaries are the one and only way to prevent being violated.

This seems to have been lost on the church community at large where church has come to be baring all to the powers that be as they have divine access to everyone else’s pocketbooks, time, talents, minors, and everyone’s (everyone else’s) wives.

Love bombing is the entretiens or point of entry, to the zombie land Evangelical orgy of anything goes hell. Good luck keeping the integrity of personhood in tact in that venue. Won’t happen. Enter the org to be transformed into a robotic tool serving the org as in orgy. Does this sound fabulist or farfetched? RZ’s org was actually his own personal orgy.

Ava Aaronson: Maybe when the Male Hierarchy instituted Male Supremacy Theology so Any and All Things Male goes?

i.e.”Just like Andrew Tate, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”