
Milky Way Galaxy NASA/JPL
“If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata–of creatures that worked like machines–would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.” ― Mere Christianity
I am spending time with family in Boston and will not have time to present a post today. Coming home tonight. Please discuss anything you desire but stay away from politics.
C.S. Lewis, at least in my own journey, has not aged well.
More gaslighting.
We do not have “free” will.
We have at best constrained will, sporadic will, beginners will.
Much of who we are and how we behave is determined beyond our local control.
We have a bit of free will, some of us more than others, depending on context.
The pedophiles we observe suffer deep compulsions and, as we all know, must be monitored and constrained by society. God could have created us without sexual attraction toward children, but he did not, in too many cases.
“Free will … is the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.”
What?
Am I a robot because the beauty of a sunset “makes” me happy, or because I “fall” in love with that one person?
The fact is that God or something gave us these wonderful and strange appetites, some of which are blessings, and some of which are curses.
More shilling of pie in the sky heaven.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
Sandy, I don’t think God created us to have sexual attraction toward children. Here’s what the Bible says about free will: James 1-13-1 , 13: Let no man say when he is tempted, I an tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither He any man. 14: But every man is tempted, whe he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15: Then when lust had conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death. 16: Do not err brethern.
pat s.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
James 1-13-16: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither He any man
But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do not err brethren.
Pat(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
Would it have been better if God had created us to do exactly what He wants; to think what he thinks, etc Kind of like a Chatty Cathy doll. God gave us free will to choose. I believe that we have a fallen nature. We do some good thing but we do bad things as well. God has allowed people to live as atheists, environmentalists, etc. That makes us free. Sadly, such freedom permits man to choose to kill a person to steal his wallet. It is up to us to structure our society to tamp down such choices. We have the right to follow God or not.
However, I’m sure some people would want to be controlled. My guess is that most wouldn’t.
CS Lewis has helped me in my faith, almost from the beginning. He is not perfect. He would’ve said so.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
= free will
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
“The fact is that God or something gave us these wonderful and strange appetites, some of which are blessings, and some of which are curses.”
++++++++++++
maybe it’s like hair color, eye color, skin color, nose and ears shape, the way one’s foot looks…
neutral distinctives
we don’t think of these things as things that denied our free will because we didn’t choose them. they just are.
like the sky – we’re under it, it changes in shape and appearance and activity – we don’t think of the fact that it is our constant companion through life as denying our free will because we didn’t choose for it to be so. (i reckon it’s even necessary for us to be alive)
maybe this is getting weird… i dunno, it’s fun to get weird…
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Not an academic or intellectual by no means. Nonetheless, in all the theological, psychological, sociological, anthropological, and historical literature I’ve had opportunity to read and look at with others, ‘human autonomy’ – to some degree or form – is supposed, implyed, challenged, and reasoned with.
Happy for any sound references that suggest otherwise.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
much of life is like playing yahtzee. we make some decisions that determine next steps, in a chance context to varying degrees.
is it too much of a pat answer to say ‘so what?’ (sincere question. i hate pat answers)
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It depends what you mean by “supposed, implied, challenged, and reasoned with.”
You can find serious people arguing all the way from “we have zero true autonomy” to “complete free will” (as Lewis implies). Either extreme seems unlikely but cases can be made. It’s a good question.
My own view is that our situations are largely beyond our personal, conscious control—but at the same time we can have enormous wiggle room. Both!
For example, with more and better education, within a democratic system rich in options, people can have more genuine choices, and be agents of change (e.g. the folks who run this blog). On the other hand, a poor person, a minority let’s say, born with severe mental illness, low IQ, and bad eyesight is likely to have little free will and autonomy. In a created universe we can “blame” God for each of these contexts. (I do, but I understand he’s not nearly perfect).
So why does God create some souls as tortured beings subject to abuse with almost no free will? Is God Calvin?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Am I the only one here at TWW who realizes how close we are to losing our democracy?
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
No.
nmgirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Only a monster would do something like that.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Some say that whatever created us is a monster, or an incompetent, or a child (some say he is all of those). Some say that Christ came to save us from the monsters but can only forgive and repair, not fix. I dunno, the cartoon versions are only briefly illuminating.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hear what you’re saying Sandy. I continue to wrestle with, and deeply troubled by, the many realities of life, more so when I witness limited opportunities afforded to others, day to day hardships, and the injustice of people being ‘sinned’ against by others – who apologist contend – are selfishly exercising their God given, but now tainted, ‘autonomy’.
The Christian-gospel narrative of course is that God has initially addressed all this through Christ (in solidarity with suffering humanity) and will eventually bring about complete restitution for his creation.
I stand corrected, but I think it was David Hume – who theoretically was privy to the tenets of Christianity – said, I don’t believe it to be true, but it would be nice if it was.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
Muff:
I would argue it is gone and too many evangelicals do not care at all.
mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
some of us are pretty depressed about this… Used to watch the news every night but can’t manage to now.
The courts will be really busy, and at least some lawyers should make out well.
readingalong(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
God is not Calvin … but there is a Calvinist God.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
Nope. We are doing what we can in our little spheres of influence.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Greetings, Imperialists! Comrade Jack here, live from Bunker 51. Home of the Canadian Resistance!
Democracy worked just the way it was supposed to. The people voted and the administration got it’s mandate.
No one really should be shocked or surprised!
Take heart, Heilon Musk has unveiled the new Tesla for 2025…look out for the Swastikar Model SS coming to showroom near you!
Later, Gators!
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Nope, not at all (surprised).
The same thing happened to the German people in 1933.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And the Christians Rejoiced at that, too.
From all the Reich Churches (the Patriot Churches of that day). Praise and Adoration of the Strong Leader who Won the Culture Wars against the HOMOSEEXUALS, Global Radical Left, and the puppetmasters of the Evil Cabal who eat children (as in baking their blood into Matzoi for Passover – nobody had heard of Adrenochrome back then).
Late night radio has Armageddon commeercials for Gold (ominously intoning the words “Digital Money”) and Newsmax ads (intoning “America’s Return to Greatness” and “Newxmax – the Only TRUTH out there!”).
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Christians LOVE Strong Leaders who will let them sit at his right and left hand.
It’s just the Moses Model Pastorate on a national scale, Smiting All Mine Enemies.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
I guess my question is will there be free will in heaven? If free will is why we have a mess on earth- then it seems free will has to go away in heaven if it is free of sin.
Doubtful(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Or trying to annex them through “economic force”. Be interesting to see what happens when that doesn’t work. There’s now interest in building new pipelines east and west. Someone will buy the oil, probably China.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
No! I’m nauseous with it. And mad and disgusted.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
“If Satan rides, it [the will] goes where Satan wills. If God rides, it goes where God wills. In either case there is no ‘free choice’.
— Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will[7]: 281
In a similar vein, the early martyr George Wishart said-
“The false heretic says that a man hath no free will; but is like to the Stoics, which say, That it is not in man’s will to do anything, but that all concupiscence and desire cometh of God, of whatsoever kind it be of… I say, that as many as believe in Christ firmly, unto them is given liberty, conformable to the saying of Saint John, “If the Son make you free, then shall ye verily be free.” Of the contrary, as many as believe not in Christ Jesus, they are bound servants of sin: “ He that sinneth is bound to sin”
(Jesus in Knox:The Reformation in Scotland, works, Vol1, p161,162)
The problem is sin as can be seen that God declared his creation “very good” emphasising that He “made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.”
Rather than blame God – or Calvin – it might be better to look closer to home.
And on a personal note, in the week where the world remembered the Holocaust, I found some of the comments and allusions here in bad taste.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You’re right. This isn’t the forum for it. My comments can be pulled by the blog owner. I’ll tell you this for nothing, I will never set foot in another evangelical church nor will I ever identify as “Christian”. Both monikers leave a bad taste in my mouth. And it feels really good to say that after years of fence sitting. I can finally throw away the Bible I always kept at my bedside. Wishing everyone good luck in their future endeavors.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yup
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack:
I hope your comment does not mean you are leaving. I enjoy your viewpoint. I feel just as you do-I quit attending any evangelical churches in 2019 and would never identify as a “Christian.” I spent 44 years of my life in this world. I honestly have not missed this world over the last 5 years. It helps me to know that I am not the only one in the boat.
mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Do not offer any part of yourselves to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourselves to him as an instrument of righteousness.” (Romans 6:13)
“Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves to obey, his slaves you are whom you obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
“But each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death.” (James 1:14-15)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Doubtful,
I guess there must be an underlying assumption. If I wish to go to heaven, and if I wish for my soul to align with the Father, then I would want sometthing to change that was not able to change in this world. For me, that would be the propensity to sin.
So, I would jump at the chance to have my thoughts and actions conform with what I believe to be good and beautiful. In some ways, I finally have the freedom that I sought in this life. I think heaven is a place that I have sought for most of my stay on this planet.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack,
I think your comments reflect that of many people in the world. I may be naive but I believe that our democracy is alive and well, even if people don’t act in the way I wish. It is bigger and more stable than that.
There are no people being led to the gas chambers. I visited Auschwitz as a teen. I stood in a gas chanber and saw the scratches on the walls, put there by those who suddenly knew they were about to die. I remember them as we remember that awful regime which wanted to eliminate those they deemed unworthy.
We are not there, in my opinion.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
only if you’re Really Truly REFORMED(TM).
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And the Saved become nothing more than mindless Worship Bots, endlessly Praising The LOOOOOOORD on a never-ending chatty doll MP3 loop.
Never-ending Bible Study (Koinonia House Christian Fellowship), never-ending Worship Service, never-ending Testimony Night (Left Behind Volume 16), never-ending North Korean Rally — lotsa Heavens out there that make Hell seem like not so bad a deal. No Timeless Halls of Iluvatar, no Undying Lands…
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
mot,
Everyone is welcome on this blog, even those who opinions may seem harsh. I welcome the pushback. It causes me to think and consider. I believee that God allowed us free will to conduct our lives in the way we wish. If He allowed it, who am I not to do the same? However, that does not mean that pushback won’t occur, either from me or other commenters.
That is why I felt lowlandserr’s comment was appropriate.
Lowlandseer
For those who follow me on Twitter, I often repost pictures and stories of those who lost their lives in the Holocaust. One of my most moving memories was my visit to the children’s Holocaust memorial Yad Vashem. Oe walks into a completely dark hall with stars shining throughout. A star would come to the fore with a picture of a child killed during that sickening time. A voice says the name undercounts come of that child’s history and ends by saying the nsame of the camp in which the child died.
Once again, we are not there in the US, IMO. I pray I am right.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
Dee you believe our democracy is alive and well. You are not serious are you. Is that why you’ve never called out 45 or 47 for his christian actions. You can close your eyes to what he is doing but it will not change his goal of establishing a dictatorship. And christians are helping him accomplish this.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Revelation 14:13: “They will rest from their labor”
Revelation 22:3: “His servants will serve Him”
Isaiah 65:17–25: People will build houses, plant vineyards, and enjoy the work of their hands
Luke 16:25: People will enjoy comfort
1 Corinthians 13:12: People will know fully, even as they are fully known
Psalm 16:11: People will experience eternal satisfaction
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In Greenville, South Carolina, employees of Bob Jones University Press recently got training from Jonathan Leeman of 9Marks.
[BJU Press publishes textbooks for Christian schools and homeschooling]
Leeman was a featured speaker at the “Mission Summit for BJU Press Employees”, lecturing them on the topic “Politics in Service of Witness”:
https://wutbju.tumblr.com/post/770301935964307456
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jonathan Leeman’s father David Leeman is associated with Second Presbyterian Church there in Greenville (PCA, Senior Minister Rev. Dr. Richard Phillips). He relocated several years ago from Dallas, where he had run afoul of the Securities & Exchange Commission for peddling unlicensed securities:
https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2017/33-10436.pdf
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Doubtful,
“I guess my question is will there be free will in heaven? If free will is why we have a mess on earth- then it seems free will has to go away in heaven if it is free of sin.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
i’m not too thrilled about the after-life (maybe because of this logical line of thinking you mention).
my impression is there is no conflict. sounds boring. like the ultimate bubble.
all stories need conflict (or else it’s uninteresting and meaningless).
like, if it’s always a hawaiian vacation, always paradise with POG, plumeria, la plage and palms every day (& always surrounded by an infinity of ocean… help, get me off the island.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee:
The Park Street Church (PSC) and Conservative Congregational Christian Conference saga continues. The latest, Mr. Grant Means, a seminary student and student under care at PSC has filed credible allegations against Park Street Church, the elders of PSC, Mark Booker, and 4C representatives Ron Hamilton (conference minister) and Dan Peterson (the chair of the credentials committee). These allegations, written to the denomination, require a “thorough investigation”. The document is posted online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3SItVXydM0&t=36s
The briefest of summaries from what I can put together:
Mark Booker is a spiritually abusive pastor and extremely clever and charming liar. The elders and 4Cs are hoodwinked by Booker’s charm, and work with him to remove many pastors, prior elders, and any congregant willing to take a stand. Ron Hamilton of the 4Cs is convinced that Booker is innocent, and he has done everything possible to protect him. Despite 56% of congregation voting against Booker on June 2, 2024, the elders refuse to take proper actions of removal, and instead take aggressive actions against all of Booker’s victims and defenders of victims. The 4Cs aids in this process by failing to do a real investigation. Booker and head elder (Jason Abraham) produce evidences against the victims, but 4Cs does not actually follow up with the victims by giving them ample opportunity to be aware of what Booker/Abraham are saying behind closed doors. It is a perfect situation for liars to lie at will without there being any check. Multiple former 4Cs pastors associated with PSC under threat of being removed from the 4Cs.
Truth not yet discovered. This story is still developing.
Watcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mot,
Dee, I knew you would not respond to my comment. But sometimes a nonresponse is still a response.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Disgraced former leader of Fundamentalist Baptist group (GARBC), Mike Hess, now preaching at a 9Marksist Southern Baptist church:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEwRRC9luU0
McGregor Baptist, Fort Myers, Florida
Vague announcement put out by the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches in 2021:
“Mike Hess was asked for his resignation from service as national representative of the GARBC due to choices he made that were inconsistent with the standards of his office. His resignation was willingly tendered on December 8, 2021”
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mike Hess on a McGregor Baptist Church podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLpuKjF4tRY
“We’ve been coming to McGregor for two years now. We moved to southwest Florida from the Chicago area about two years ago. I was blessed to pastor churches in southern Illinois and in southwest Iowa, and then led a parachurch ministry for a few years before we moved down here, and now I serve as Campus Chaplain at Evangelical Christian School”.
“led a parachurch ministry for a few years”? [What a clever description]
And from his bio at the Christian school:
https://goecs.org/about-ecs/leadership/
“…pastored churches in Illinois and Iowa and ministered in over 20 countries around the world.”
I guess “and ministered in over 20 countries around the world” is supposed to cover his time leading the GARBC?
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hess was in Timmy Brister’s ‘Band of Bloggers’ in the 2000s.
Archived “Links” page from Mike Hess’s old solo blog:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070326075337/http://www.extremefundamentalmakeover.com/2006/04/
GARBC links mixed with Founders, 9Marks, Mohler’s SBTS, Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, Nouthetic counseling, CBMW, Monergism dot com.
Archived: his old team blog (with Ken Fields), Hess exulted over John Piper and CJ Mahaney:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120326060118/http://theworldfrommywindow.blogspot.com/2006/04/whoa.html
In the 2010s, Hess went incognito with the YRR stuff (locked down his blog) in the run up to GARBC leadership.
But when Hess got the top post at GARBC, we saw TGC Council Members being invited as keynote speakers at the GARBC Annual Meetings (Mark Vroegop 2019, Steve DeWitt 2020), promotion of 9Marksism, etc., Hess even set up an official GARBC meet-up at the last T4G Conference.
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You’re not naive. Democracy worked exactly as advertised. Americans spoke and one can but hope the administration will listen to them.
As of tomorrow, our respective countries are enemies in a trade war. I always thought free trade was a foolish proposition. We lived without it before and we’ll learn to live without it now. Needless to say, guess which products I won’t be buying.
We’ll see how it all shakes out.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you – if I have something to contribute, I ‘ll comment. But I have to tell you, it’s great to finally free myself of the last vestiges of Christian programming. Take care.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Saw “GARBC” and read it as “Garbage”. Was I right?
Not even gonna get started on “Hess”; there’s a historical figure with that name.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You are very right at the moment dee, but we are on the way to that place.
The same thing happened to the German people in 1933.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
— Pastor Niemoller —
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff’s gonna’ stir the pot here:
How is it that a foreign national (Musk) now has control over our monetary policy?
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Musk has been a citizen of the US since 2002. He is also a citizen of South Africa where he was born and Canada (by virtue of his mother being Canadian) unless he has renounced one or both of those.
I also fear what is happening. Relevant to this blog is whether people who are undocumented will now be less likely to report abuse including abuse in a church setting to the legal authorities. There is a certain amount of protection legally for those who are undocumented and are victims of some crimes though whether it is sufficient is unclear. Or for a witness to abuse or potential abuse who is undocumented (e.g., a person hired to clean the church buildings or the undocumented parent of a child) to report their suspicions to legal authorities.
Note that one group of undocumented are foreign children brought to the US for adoption whose adopted US citizen parents either fail to complete the adoption but keep the child or fail to file the necessary paperwork after completion to make sure the children are recognized as US citizens. You can be sure abusers will recognize the vulnerability of those children. https://intercountryadopteevoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Outline-of-Issues-with-Intercountry-Adoption-to-the-USA-by-Gregory-Luce.pdf
These are ongoing issues which I see the current administration making worse.
Erp(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yep, Musk has Canadian citizenship. Lol, might be the best weapon Canada has been able to deploy! His heart goes out to you!
Mine, less so. I really hope free trade is dead for good! I’ll be in the street protesting any Canadian government that enters into a trade deal with the United States. I hope we’re not so stupid to hitch our cart to any US wagon again.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Comment went into customs and it can remain unapproved, thanks. No good flogging the dead horse.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Erp,
Erp, they surely will not make these matters better. We’re are the christians leaders during this ongoing tragedy. I guess many of them would lose their jobs if they spoke up against him
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fighting each other to be first to Take his Mark, of course.
And they wouldn’t get to sit at his right hand like Patriarch Kyril to Tsar Putin.
“HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AND HIS KINGDOM SHALL HAVE NO END!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Erp,
I stand corrected on Musk’s citizenship.
But still, if he’s allowed to cast seniors into penury with social security cuts, it will be our twilight’s last gleaming.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack,
Trump had entered a trade agreement with you last time round. He broke it today, or course. That’s who he is.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
People ask “Do I really need Jesus to go to heaven?” Whew, you need Jesus just to go to Walmart! I feel like I lose my Christianity when I go shopping these days!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Collectively, it was the United States government that signed the trade agreement and it was the United States government that broke it. The President represents that government.
The United States people elected that government knowing full well what they getting. In spite of fears of the demise of democracy, it worked!
In keeping with the talk of Christian Nationalism, the concept of manifest Destiny has been invoked repeatedly. This is the definition that I could find:
“the 19th-century doctrine or belief that the expansion of the US throughout the American continents was both justified and inevitable.”
There’s a definite religious component to this.
Trade war is bad but it could get worse. Here’s a CBC analysis:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-trade-war-vs-economic-war-1.7447927
Forced annexation, aided and abetted by Christian Nationalism.
And it could be done without firing a shot. Act of Congress and a “treaty” added the West and Texas to the union.
There’s a lot of resources in Canada that are not available anywhere else in the west. Large oil patches, lithium and strategic metals like uranium.
Manifest Destiny states that by right those belong to America.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So there I was floating above the operating table, suddenly looking down at my body, my life fading. I see a bright light, a mysteriously convenient parking space, then row after row of bright lights, with colored accent lights highlighting racks of desirable objects. An old man bids me welcome at the sliding glass gates. But the cashier sadly tells me “no” and I reluctantly return to the table to face the shame of my wayward life and canceled credit.
Now I make millions telling my story.
But all I want to do is to check out and return to that shining land of glory.
Help me spread the word!
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Now he’s messed with the big boys by imposing tariffs.
He’s cut in on their action.
If he stops now, he may be able to do some serious damage control and save his presidency.
If not?
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
“People ask “Do I really need Jesus to go to heaven?” Whew, you need Jesus just to go to Walmart!”
+++++++++++++
i like that.
lifetime christian here….. and i’m not exactly sure what that means.
what are your thoughts, in the most brass tacks practical terms you can come up with. emphasis on practical.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
for a second there i thought you were being serious….
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
Being a Christian is a whole lot easier than acting like a Christian. Going shopping these days for this old guy, in the midst of rude people, tries my Christian character … but I only cuss what needs to be cussed 🙂
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Please begin to dial back the politics.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee, so much for the free discussion. Our country is going to and you do not want us to discuss this. As someone previously posted this will make it more difficult for those that suffer abuse.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Because that would be POLITICAL and We’re Above All That.
“First they came for the Jews, but that was a POLITICAL matter and We don’t get involved with POLITICS…”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mot,
Since this blog’s inception, I decided to keep politics out of the discussion. There are so many blogs that focus on politics. I wished for this blog to look at abuse in the church. That is a subject that, unfortinately, brings the panoply of political beliefs together. I’m sorry if this is not what you want in a blog. But, I have stood by this for 16 years. Believe it or not, the majority of pressure came from the right. I lost friends over that stand. They wanted this blog to be a right leaning political “Christian” blog.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
America is GOD’s Chosen Nation, remember.
“Are they God’s Chosen? Are they God’s Chosen?”
— Gordon R Dickson, “Soldier, Ask Not” (both original novelette and later novel – any Old School SF geeks who know the context of that excerpt?)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
I’ll just leave this: as someone in government, what is happening now terrifies me.
And there are implications on abuse in the church. Look at the Anglican priest who thought it would be funny to sieg heil. They are going to emboldened.
Observant Outsider(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee, it has nothing to do with what I want in a blog. I rarely comment on your blog.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Unless we’ve reached the point of “L’Etat, ces moi” and/or “Der Fuehrer ist die Partie und der Partiei ist der Fuehrer’. And a lot of politicized Christians are already there. What do you think the Seven Mountains Mandate and “Ten Godly Men” is all about? With or without Dreams and Visions from Firefighter Prophets and Spiritual Warriors?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The Holy Abusers are not dialing back the politics, they’re doubling down. Imagine some of these MenaGAWD with the life-and-death POWER of the State, Grima Wormtongues seated at the Left and Right Hands of the King. Do you think these Moses Models would go for that deal? “All the 50 Kingdoms of the States are thine, if you will bow down to me.”
There is a non-Rapture interpretation of Revelation where the Beast represents a corrupt political system, the False Prophet a corrupt religious system, and the Whore of Babylon a corrupt economic system, all in cahoots. Regarding the Beast and the False Prophet, which one is always The Boxx and which is the sniveling sidekick who THINKS he’s the REAL Boss?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
According to Left Behind Volume 13, it’s a global Middle America/Great Plains dotted with little American Gothic Pleasantvilles with white picket fences.
And in Left Behind Volume 16, we see what everybody does there — endlessly tell each other about Jesus in a Never-Ending Testimony Night.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
Then Get on the Elijah’s List Podcast NOW!
From what I’ve seen, they’ll believe anything if you name and claim it as a Vision from God!
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“GIVE US A KING! LIKE ALL THE GOYIM! LIKE RUSSIA! LIKE CHINA! LIKE HUNGARY! LIKE TURKEY!”
— updated from 1 Samuel 8:5
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Technically it was a vision from Walmart.
I think I should be able to monetize that and build temples or more Walmarts.
Right?
It really was a special moment for me, with the white tunnel and everything.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s a tough one since politics and religion are so intertwined.
For what it’s worth, thanks for the venting space. Unfortunately in my opinion, American Christians have played no small part in declaring war on my country so certainly it’s a “Christian trend”.
The thought of my descendants forced to declare the pledge of Allegiance is not something that makes me happy. Though by that time they would assimilated Americans.
“…one nation under God….”. Ashes in my mouth….
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
Respectfully dee, this not about partisan politics.
It’s about the very real possibility of us losing our democracy.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That under God bit was not added until the 1950s. The earlier pledge did not have it.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Bye everybody. This ole guy has run out of wit and wisdom.
Thank you, Dee, for standing up for the used and abused. And, may the theodudes tremble knowing you are still out and about. I wish you the best in your new project.
Wartburgers, it’s been real and it’s been fun with y’all … but not real fun.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And if we lose it christians will have made it possible. I know forgiveness is important but I will never forgive the christians that helped create this disaster.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
I hope this is not forever. Just know you are loved. MY husband loves your comments the most.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
Forever is a long time; I’ve already been around for the better part of a century. I’ll drop in to check on you now and then. Tell your husband that I wrote my comments over the years just for him.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee,
I agree with you about keeping politics out of the discussion, and I know you do allow leeway for some political discussion. 🙂 And I’m so sorry you lost friends over the stand you took (and take).
My one political comment: Very, very recently, I’m ashamed (as a Canadian living in Canada), to say many hockey fans at some hockey games boo-ed while the U.S. anthem was being sung. And our Prime Minister, while alluding to it, didn’t even have the guts to call those fans out….he merely commented, with a smile on his face, (paraphrasing): “Sometimes people get emotional.”
I’m so sorry for the poor behaviour shown by both the hockey fans AND our Prime Minister.
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That. 🙂
I hope you do, but no pressure. 🙂
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
oh max – i’ll miss you! thank you so much for your faithful kindness and thoughtful dialogue.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The bottom line is that the MAGA Christian Nationalist Trump fans do not mind if a blog doesn’t talk about politics, because in their mind silence means acquiescence. Same goes for bullies, narcissists, and abusers. As long as you not are actively opposing them they will continue on as before, figuring the silent one are too cowed to say anything. Sounds like enabling in many ways. How is this different than the pastor’s wife or church leadership or pewsitters not saying anything about the pastor’s abuse or crimes?
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Here’s something positive and uplifting for us all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb8UD228_o
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
that was enjoyable! he was a pleasant listening companion.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Hugs, Max. Hope you look us up occasionally.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ras al Ghul,
You do not demonstrate that you have heard or care about my thoughts. So, I’m silent, just like those Nazi sympathizers during WW2. Your comment is why I do not do politics on this blog. I’ve got detractors from the right and the left, both believing that they are the righteous ones. And few people will listen carefully and respectfully to one another. This reminds me of the old Soviet Union, which I visited a few times with my family. Fall into line, and if you don’t, get thrown into Lubyanka. Dissent is eliminated.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Reminds me of the backstory in the tabletop role-paying game Rapture: The Second Coming (Quintessinal Mercy Productions, more likely their first printing instead of the later D20 System version), where the Christians actually put the Antichrist in power because he didn’t fit all their End Time Prophecy charts & checklists, so he couldn’t be1 (And he was so godly and so Christian until he didn’t need them any more. P.S. The Trib didn’t start with a Darbyite Rapture like all the Prophecy checklists, so it couldn’t have been the Trib going down.)
Originally there were TWO archtypes of Antichrist: The Fanatic Persecutor (“anti-” as “In Oppositon To”) and the Slick Deceiver (“Anti-” as in “Imitation of”). The second archetype is all but forgotten these days (and sure was in R:tSC’s backstory).
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A quote from the blog of Jordan Bassior (Jordan179), an old-school litfan I knew who died unexpectedly back in 1021. It comes form a never-finished project of his, a future history called “The American Mandate” which retells the history of the Roman Empire in a future USA.
In this future history, the transition from Republic to Empire, from President to Caesar, happens somewhere between 2020 and 2040. With the following epitaph for the Republic:
“After all the years and chaos, the people had become tired of principles.
From now on, they would only put their faith in Princes.”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I get soooo tired of hearing about how bad I am as a sinner.
And about how I can never be good enough for God.
As a father and a grandfather I cry bull$hit.
So long as my progeny are doing the best they can with what they’ve got, I’m happy, and by extension, I hope God’s happy with me.
Beethoven always restores my faith in the best of what we can be as humans.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My life should bear witness to the fact that I do a bit more than nothing and am rarely silent. Perhaps to be “good,” I must not be quiet about the subjects you claim are the most important?
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee I really do not understand why you are so defensive. No one is accessing you of what you claim to have been accused. You seem to be protesting too much in my opinion. I have not counted but maybe 5 of us have challenged you on the issue. I do not interpret raus comment the way you are.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mot,
You may be correct but the silence quote bothered me. Perhaps the recent election has caused feelings to be a little raw, especially given my history of trying to isolate the issue of abuse from the current political climate, which, in my opinion, allows for little nuance. This issue has raised its head for @15 years. Given that the blog is 16 years old, it has lingered for that time. I have been criticized during that time for my wish to stay out of the political fray. It isn’t just the 5 in this post, it involves all those in the 15+years here and on Twitter and other blogs which all claim I should so “more” for whatever side they are advocating.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I wish to be clear. I am ok with whatever your position is. If I have made it sound like I want you to take a certain position I apologize. I understand what your blogs main focus is and support you 100 percent. And your blog has not been political and as the blog owner that is rightfully your choice
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve only just seen your post this morning Dee. I’ve visited several of the camps in Poland and there are no words to describe the horror. Much has been put behind glass now, presumably to reflect the idea of them being museums/memorials for future generations. But to me it sanitises and diminishes what happened there and those who knew about these places and did nothing have never been held to account (and I include Mr Churchill in that). As Ava said, Eli Wiesel’s “Night” sums up the misguided belief that human nature wouldn’t countenance such horrors.
Max
I’m sorry to see you go. I’ve enjoyed reading/debating/disagreeing with(sometimes!)your insights and wisdom gathered over many years. I wish you all the best for you and your family in the coming years – may you have many of them!
Jack
Sorry to read of your decision and I hope you will reconsider at some point. Best wishes to you too.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jonathan Edwards kind of agrees. He said – “ It is not unlikely that this work of God’s Spirit, so extraordinary and wonderful, is the dawning, or, at least, a prelude of that glorious work of God, so often foretold in Scripture, which, in the progress and issue of it, shall renew the world of mankind. If we consider how long since the things foretold as what should precede this great event, have been accomplished; and how long this event has been expected by the church of God, and thought to be nigh by the most eminent men of God in the church; and withal consider what the state of things now is, and has for a considerable time been, in the church of God, and the world of mankind; we cannot reasonably think otherwise, than that the beginning of this great work of God must be near. And there are many things that make it probable that this work will begin in America.”
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
It really does surprise me that MAGA hasn’t found a way to blame the Jews for our ills.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A comment worthy of the hand-wringing, angst-ridden nonsense that passes for news and “informed comment” of a certain US news channel that still can’t quite believe no-one listened to their stories of the bogeyman coming to get them but rather voted for him. I think it’s called democracy.
I hope your grumpiness clears up soon.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
He is a boogeyman and I hope christians are happy with what he is doing our democracy. If muff is grumpy he must have plenty of reasons why. I believe history will show that us news channel to have been correct
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
At the end of the day, it’s not political. It comes down to the defense of my homeland. The general consensus is that the goal is the annexation of Canada.
If we get a reprieve then I hope the Canadian government takes the time to diversify trade, expand relations with other countries and militarize! Time to meet or exceed the NATO target for spending!
Forget expensive planes and ships. We need shoulder mounted anti air and anti tank weapons. We can’t win any up front invasion but like Afghanistan when the Soviets invaded, the best we can do is rely on an insurgency.
Invest in a decentralized military structure that can withstand decapitation.
Sad state of affairs but that’s what Christian Americans seem to want.
And I only wish that was my acerbic wit talking.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack,
And now that we the Red Dawn idiocy of our chest, what will really happen is that the tariffs will be either reduced or discarded, in some way that no face is lost and the next news cycle will start.
Or there will be a trade war of some sort.
And it would be a good time to invest in Halls menthol candies because of all the hoarse voices – all that booing can’t be good for the the throat.
Sheer nuttiness – may we keep our sanity during these trying times.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
If I have something to add then I will (appropriately) chime in. Like many, I’m just frustrated with the current situation. And as I said earlier, if I’m not appropriately chiming in then my comments can be removed with no hard feelings.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack,
Jack, I wish I could just ignore what is happening but too many people are being hurt by him and his administration. Most christians do not seem to care. I used to call myself a Christian but not now. That words meaning has changed for me.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Or they’re cheering it on as the REAL Second Coming of Christ.
“AAAAAAA_MENNNNN!!!!! HE IS LOOOOOOORD!!!!! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!!!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And CHrsitian Testamints (just like Altoids, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!) south of the border — all those high-decibei Praises and Adorations also can’t be good for Christian throats.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
When I was indoctrinated in the Dispensation of Hal Lindsay, “this next great work of God” was Global Thermonuclear War, with the Rapture going down as the first warheads started detonation sequence over their targets, initiators beaming neutrons into primary pits pressurizing with tritium.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Please Jack, don’t put us all (Americans) into one category.
Many of us CANNOT STAND the current administration or its chieftain.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
They are evil men.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I, for one, appreciated the low level of political discussion here. If I want that, there are plenty of other places to go.
We had some folks leave our church a couple of years ago because the pastor was “not doing enough to inform and warn the congregation of the dangers of the president and administration then in power.”
In essence putting politics before fellowship.
Not a fan of that from either side.
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Afterburne,
This was an open discussion so I would think politics would be allowed on this one item. BTW I imagine many evangelical pastors include politics in their preaching. But they are not warning people about him but encouraging people to vote and support him. Is that putting politics before fellowship?
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you for the reality check. I take back my choice of words.
Reflecting on everything said here.
Anger helps no one. Not least myself.
All we can do in the end is to do right in our corner of the universe.
Peace to you and yours.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Oh dear. My comment was supposed to be appreciate (present tense) NOT appreciated (past tense).
I am not bemoaning this open discussion being political. Simply expressing my opinion that I appreciate the mostly apolitical stance that Dee has held to.
Do politics matter? Yes.
Do we need to be informed / warned by others? No. That only serves to cement the view one already holds. Which leads to my other comment that I still hold to . . . .
The folks that left our fellowship left precisely because the pastor was not “warning” the congregation of the then administration (2 years ago and you can do the math). And of course because it was not *their* stance that was being pushed that they left. So, yes, it absolutely was putting politics before fellowship.
To be fair though, I would likely walk out of a fellowship that was making the views of either political party their “main fare”.
This video (which I linked to here several weeks ago) probably best expresses my view of where politics should fit within the context of the pulpit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN5hkdNcyQg
Some might disagree and say that the pulpit should be warning folks. That is certainly where I would disagree.
I will, however, add some fuel to the fire in this discussion that started with a contrast between free will and not free will. I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe that God controls, to some degree, the general things on earth. Especially with respect to nations:
Acts 17:26
God created every human nation to live on the whole earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.
Romans 13:1
There isn’t any authority unless it comes from God, and the authorities that are there have been put in place by God.
Within the control that He exercises, we have free will to move around in as was discussed in earlier posts.
Here is my gas on the fire comment. What if the last few administrations (including the most current one) are meant to facilitate God passing judgement on this nation for our (Christian’s) idolatry of politics as the way to, well, the way to whatever some folks thinks that politics is a way to?
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Afterburne,
Also, the speaker was a guest speaker. Our pastor was, shall we say, astute enough to let a visitor cover the subject of politics in his ongoing series about the basics of our walk with God.
And the guest speaker, IMO, slammed it out of the park.
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Afterburne,
An earlier comment is being held (understandably). Not complaining or bothered about it. It does, however, mean my comment above makes no sense at all. Not going to repost, we will see how things land with the comments.
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I was surprised to come across Edward’s views. And I found Lindsay’s views disturbing.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Calling out evil men has zero to do with partisan politics.
We are in very real danger of losing our democracy.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I am not sure that significant elements of our democracy haven’t already been lost.
There are agencies that can set the rules (something Congress is supposed to do), choose how much a fine is, and then absolutely ruin someone by imposing said fine with there being absolutely no judicial recourse.
That all flies in the face of gov’t by the people for the people. There are plenty of stories of how it is against people these days. Sometime it feels like the gov’t is by the gov’t and for the gov’t only.
The prevalence of Civil Asset Forfeiture and so much police / prosecutor misconduct going unpunished under the guise of qualified immunity, ridiculously unconstrained spending, being just some examples of a gov’t that is, in some (many?) ways, out of control.
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I can’t ignore it. It’s on my doorstep. But actions not angst are needed now. For Americans that depends on how they feel. For me, it involves doing what I need to do to support my fellow Canadians.
I can’t comment on christianity any more. I simply don’t believe it is the way to any truth. Christians in general and American Christians in particular will have to chart their own way.
I don’t even have feelings about the articles shared here anymore. It’s just Christians doing horrible stuff to other Christians. It doesn’t elicit outrage, as I no longer feel there’s a dog in the fight.
Just wishing everyone luck in their corner of the universe.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack, we do not personally know each other but I do care about you and your fellow Canadians. I also care about others in the united states and other places in the world who are and will be affected by the current administration. Do I care if those who voted for him are adversely affected by the current administration my answer is I do not know.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Afterburne,
“The folks that left our fellowship left precisely because the pastor was not “warning” the congregation of the then administration (2 years ago and you can do the math). And of course because it was not *their* stance that was being pushed that they left”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
life is complex and messy. seems to me this is also the political domain.
seems to me solutions (of which there are several for every issue) are in the messy middle.
all the red / blue ‘purism’ is super dumb.
it’s like ethics of middle school, or even 4th grade.
loyalty to one’s clique, hostility to those outside the clique, & disdain for the deplorables is not only cool but righteous.
(hell, i even saw this in preschool with 3 year-olds)
and we’re talking full-fledged adults.
it’s a measure of how impressionable people have become. prey for powerbrokers.
just like the dolls i had where i, the operator, literally pulled the strings and they would say stuff. or squeeze their tummy and they’d ‘comment’.
wherever the dividing line is between right and left, it’s engineered at the whim of powerbrokers, who exploit everyone.
wisdom is at various points, some far from one’s allegiance, in the middle third or quadrant.
this makes people mad (& i almost enjoy it).
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
Maybe the left and right should try to find some common ground for the benefit of all people.
Mot(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mot,
Thank you, mot. The same sentiment goes back to you and yours. There’s no doubt it’ll get worse before it gets better.
I was talking to our family in New Jersey. They are evangelicals who did not vote for the current administration. Apparently there are a number of people expressing “buyer’s remorse”.
There’s also friends who I know are firm supporters. The last time we saw them they would not travel Canada due to the freedom clownvoy (which by that time was years ago) – I told my wife, I have no interest in reaching out to them right now. It would most definitely kill any friendship if they started up about the trade war annexation bid.
My buddy’s sister in Edmonton deals in real estate, one of the real estate agents in Florida she deals with was gushing about how excited she was that Canada would be the 51st state.
As I said – sheer nuttiness.
So we just do the best we can with what we have.
Stay well and take care.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jack,
will you let us know of any sasquatch sighting?
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sure.
Not saying it’s aliens…but it’s aliens…
Stay well, e-girl.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You might enjoy/get a few ideas from “The Dandelion Insurrection” by Rivera Sun – it’s book one of The Dandelion Trilogy”.
Also, I think you’d appreciate “Gospel Worship” written in the 1700s by Archibald Hall, as it deals with a number of the issues you’ve raised about the current evangelical scene, strangely enough. Keep well.
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
Thanks for the reading suggestions. There are many great examples through history of people making a difference – even standing up to great empires – in a non violent way. I’ll check out those books.
I don’t think “evangelical issues” are new so no surprise that there’s writings from the 1700’s. That’s around the time of the Enlightenment so I wonder if those writings are influenced by that? I’ve always believed – even when I was christian – that in many ways the new testament and the enlightenment had more in common than differences. They take the hard edge off the smiting and killing of the old testament.
Stay well and take care, peace to you and yours.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jesus and the apostle Paul are two such examples. The Roman Empire is long gone and their story is still here.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)