01.18.25 EChurch@Wartburg The Roys Report podcast: Jamin Coller, a pastor’s son and former worship pastor: Dear Evangelicals: The REAL Reasons People Are Exiting Church


Sun over the Earth; NASA/ISS

On all music, please click on view on you tube in lower left corner. The bot thing is driving me crazy.


The Lorica of St Patrick link

I arise today
Through the strength of heaven;
Light of the sun,
Splendor of fire,
Speed of lightning,
Swiftness of the wind,
Depth of the sea,
Stability of the earth,
Firmness of the rock.

I arise today
Through God’s strength to pilot me;
God’s might to uphold me,
God’s wisdom to guide me,
God’s eye to look before me,
God’s ear to hear me,
God’s word to speak for me,
God’s hand to guard me,
God’s way to lie before me,
God’s shield to protect me,
God’s hosts to save me
Afar and anear,
Alone or in a multitude.

Christ shield me today
Against wounding
Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left, Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down,
Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in the eye that sees me,
Christ in the ear that hears me.

I arise today
Through the mighty strength
Of the Lord of creation.
Amen

A prayer of Martin Luther link

Behold, Lord, An empty vessel that needs to be filled. My Lord, fill it. I am weak in faith; Strengthen thou me.
I am cold in love; Warm me and make me fervent That my love may go out to my neighbour.
I do not have a strong and firm faith; At times I doubt and am unable to trust thee altogether.
O Lord, help me. Strengthen my faith and trust in thee. In thee I have sealed the treasures of all I have.
I am poor; Thou art rich and didst come to be merciful to the poor. I am a sinner; Thou art upright.
With me there is an abundance of sin; In thee is the fullness of righteousness.
Therefore, I will remain with thee of who I can receive But to whom I may not give.
Amen.

Prayer by Martin Luther King Jr. link

O God,…we thank Thee for Thy Church, founded upon Thy Word, that challenges us to do more than sing and pray,
but go out and work as though the very answer to our prayers depended on us and not upon Thee…
Help us to realize that man was created to shine like the stars and live on through all eternity.
Keep us, we pray, in perfect peace, help us to walk together, pray together, sing together, and live together
until that day when all God’s children, Black, White, Red, and Yellow, will rejoice in one common band of humanity
in the kingdom of our Lord and of our God, we pray.
Amen.

Benediction: St Ethelwold  (c.904-984) link

May God the Father bless us,
may Christ take care of us,
the Holy Ghost enlighten us all the days of our life.
The Lord be our defender and keeper of body and soul,
both now and forever, to the ages of ages.
Amen


Comments

01.18.25 EChurch@Wartburg The Roys Report podcast: Jamin Coller, a pastor’s son and former worship pastor: Dear Evangelicals: The REAL Reasons People Are Exiting Church — 36 Comments

  1. Around the 19:30 mark, the speaker remarked that while some mega-churches might be growing, the smaller community churches are shrinking and/or closing.

    I came across an interesting set of statistics about the importance of religion in celebrating Christmas for Americans. https://news.gallup.com/poll/272357/percentage-americans-celebrate-christmas.aspx

    The number of Americans who celebrate Christmas as a strongly religious holiday has decreased from 47% to 31% in the last 20 years.

    This fits my experience. Growing up, Christmas was about getting together with family at grandma’s and Grandpa’s house on Christmas Eve, going to church, eating a giant fancy meal, playing with cousins, eating treats, reading the Christmas story, and opening presents.

    Now, we do our own thing with regard to church on Christmas Eve and have a family get-together on Christmas Day. No one wants to listen to my sister and brother-in-law refuse to go to grandma’s mainline protestant church, the one we raised and confirmed in, because they are not real Christians.

    They are so busy converting us to their church that we completely eliminated all aspects of religion from the family gathering portion of Christmas.

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  2. davewis: They are so busy converting us to their church that we completely eliminated all aspects of religion from the family gathering portion of Christmas.

    That is an insightful comment. I am so grateful that my three grown kids, their spouses, and one tiny grandbaby joined us for Christmas Eve services and spent the next day together. I don’t take that for granted.

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  3. Michael: The evangelical church is not growing: it is consolidating. Mergers & acquisitions at the altar.

    I:m a STar Trek fan .Perhpas this can be called the Ferengi model. JD Greear moved his church away from the college campuses and moved to Raleigh where the money is. He had a good showing when he opened. he sucked a bunch of people from the other Baptist churches in the area. He didn’t “grow” anything.

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  4. dee: JD Greear … sucked a bunch of people from the other Baptist churches in the area. He didn’t “grow” anything.

    In order to achieve mega stardom, he made a mega mess for other churches. Something tells me that Jesus is not pleased with that model of doing church … stealing sheep so you can fleece them in ‘your’ barn.

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  5. dee: I am so grateful that my three grown kids, their spouses, and one tiny grandbaby joined us for Christmas Eve services and spent the next day together. I don’t take that for granted.

    All I need to hear is, “In those days, a decree went out from Caesar Augustus…” and I am five years old, sitting on someone’s lap, still stuffed from lunch, exhausted from an afternoon of playing with cousins yet riled up from too many cookies and anticipation for opening a present.

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  6. davewis: All I need to hear is, “In those days, a decree went out from Caesar Augustus…” and I am five years old, sitting on someone’s lap, still stuffed from lunch, exhausted from an afternoon of playing with cousins yet riled up from too many cookies and anticipation for opening a present.

    We solved that by having one of the children read the Christmas story from the Bible. The other children listened to them, focusing on the moment rather than whining for presents. At least it worked in our family.

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  7. I suppose there are various real reasons for exiting the church, given individual experience. The real reason I became a “Done” is that the American church (at least the corner I was exposed to = Southern Baptist) has largely stopped preaching ‘the’ Gospel in favor of another gospel. Hardcore fundamental belief and practice, theological rightness, church as entertainment, megamania, and assorted other ways of doing church without God have taken control of the wheel. So, I’m done with organized church, but not done with Jesus.

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  8. Just for kicks and grins, I used the church finder app for a church where I was actually able to do some healing after years of religious abuse in IFB and SBC churches. Not surprisingly, where there used to be a couple churches not far from me, now the closest one is over fifteen miles away and all where the money is. I guess only the well off should hear the gospel in their minds. I find it very sad. It took me literally years to find my church, and that when I was lying in ICU with heart failure for two weeks. I thank the Lord for it,but it was disheartening to see so many churches preaching different gospels, and God forbid if you’re single or childfree.

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  9. dee: He had a good showing when he opened. he sucked a bunch of people from the other Baptist churches in the area. He didn’t “grow” anything.

    This is commonly called “sheep rustling”.

    Max: In order to achieve mega stardom, he made a mega mess for other churches.

    Zero-Sum Game.
    Since there is only so much to go around, the only way to get more for Me is to take it away from You. The only way I can rise up is to crush all the rest of you down.

    Very Christian.

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  10. davewis: Around the 19:30 mark, the speaker remarked that while some mega-churches might be growing, the smaller community churches are shrinking and/or closing.

    That reminds me of something from a junior college Economics textbook that concentrated on the men who originated various schools and approaches to Economics. Specifically, a Victorian-era analyst named Karl Marx (before he converted to Hegelian Dialectic and became an Apocalyptic Prophet).

    In his analytical work Das Kapital, Marx predicted that larger companies/tycoons/corporations would keep growing by absoebing/destroying smaller ones in a type of Social Darwinism until all that’s left are one or two total Monopolies which then discover what happens to Predators after they’ve eaten all the Prey. Who must always Grow to survive but there is nothing left to fuel that Growth. When they run out of fuel and collapse (and they’re the only ones left), then comes the Apocalypse. At that point Das Kapital ends because there’s nothing remaining.

    At that point the early Karl Marx also ends and the later Karl Marx – the Prophet detailing that Apocalypse of Das Kapital promising a Millennial Kingdom of Communist Manifesto on the other side – begins.

    And others took that Apocalyptic gospel and ran with it through the entire 20th Century with a beyond-religion Religious Fanaticism. Near the end of his life, Marx was quoted as saying “I am not a Marxist”.

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  11. Michael:
    The American church is, as always, following the corporate model. The evangelical church is not growing: it is consolidating. Mergers & acquisitions at the altar.

    Considerable truth here Michael when you consider the biblical definition of ‘church’ related to identity and function.

    It’s also not together true that non business & entrepreneur type “churches” are in decline and are unable to compete in the so called, market place.
    Despite the prominence of many religious food deserts, there are still well attended faith communities that offer and provide fresh spiritual fruit & vegetables.

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  12. I’m open to be educated and corrected on this, but it seems that in more ways than one American capitalism – which has evolved to no longer just be an economic system – has vastly permeated many evangelical churches and faith-para church organisations to the extent that management, marketing, personalities, entrepreneurs, enterprises & entertainment has not only become the norm, but regarded as astute and oddly, virtuous.
    It also seems that before the ‘me too’ movement came about, the ‘you too’ – personal & aspirational world view and theology – has been in full swing and is constantly exploited.

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  13. Ian Docker: American capitalism – which has evolved to no longer just be an economic system – has vastly permeated many evangelical churches and faith-para church organisations

    No doubt about. While the Main Thing is still the main thing at some American churches, most have merged into a Christian Industrial Complex where the mission is no longer the Great Commission. Jesus wept.

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  14. Sandy: Perhaps people create new gospels because the old ones are familiar, or have been found wanting.

    Humans are always looking for some new thing, but attempts to reinvent ‘the’ Gospel are futile – it’s an eternal message of Truth. When a generation gets to a crossroad of faith, they need to return to the “ancient path” lest they wander off course.

    “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls” (Jeremiah 6:16)

    What we are seeing in church as entertainment, megamania, and assorted other ways of doing church without God are symptoms of a restless soul.

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  15. Max: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls” (Jeremiah 6:16)

    The wisdom of this verse lies in the suggestion to “stand at the crossroads and look” and to “ask where the good way is.” The ancient path itself is mythological and not to be understood literally. Else we would be back to the world of demons and spit magic.

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  16. Sandy: The ancient path itself is mythological and not to be understood literally.

    Some of us understand it literally. The way of truth and righteousness have been outlined sufficiently in Scripture for me. I believe it and try to live it … I fail occasionally, fall in the ditch, but get up and go back to the “ancient path” as best I can. I’ve lived the better part of a century, I know no other way to live at this point so will keep pressing forward.

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  17. Apparently, the cultural anthropologist Margaret Mead said that Western society is infatuated, if not obsessed, with all things new. Whether it be new products and services or new ideas and new world views, whatever the case, it must be new and to present anything that been offered, said, or done before, is tantamount to being irrelevant and somewhat inept. Perhaps if Mead was around today and objectively observed a number of Ministers and Churches, she might even suggest that they too have been caught up in this way of thinking that only what’s new in word and deed, is best. This of course is somewhat of a reversal if you consider that by definition, heresy, is unorthodoxy.
    Perhaps also it could be argued that the infatuation with all things new, is further proof on how far capitalism in all its forms has permeated church life and thinking with the result that church attenders are now unconsciously – and perhaps even consciously – regarded, not as parishioners and disciples, but rather as customers, consumers or clients that need to be offered and sold products and services.
    Fully aware that the good old days were not always that good. In days past there were clear distinctions between the unchanging ‘message’ to that of culturally flexible methods. This distinction has considerably diminished and needs to be faithfully challenged and addressed.

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  18. I am continuously disappointed by the commenters on The Roys Report. Many prove the author’s point: that the church is unwilling to engage with questioners (after they profess faith). Wartburgers, on the other hand, are much more receptive and understanding, which I’m happy to see. I am an exvangelical, in some sense, but not completely deconstructed (for now). I think this song by U2 captures how I feel:

    “You broke the bonds and you loosed the chains
    Carried the cross of my shame
    Of my shame
    You know I believe

    But I still haven’t found what I’m looking for.”

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