Satellite image of southern California on Jan. 9, 2025. Large plumes of whitish gray smoke are streaming out over the water from the Palisades and Eaton Fires in the region. NASA
“Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
A Quick Update: I will be gathering some of the folks in Oklahoma and Melissa Hobson to have a video discussion on exposing a pastor/molester decades after their abuse as children. It is meant to educate the public on the issues surrounding this brave yet difficult act. What questions would you like to get answered? One friend suggested, “I was shocked to discover my pastor lied and covered things up. Were others shocked when they discovered their pastor lied and covered things up? I still think about it years later.” I have a question they can answer.”Why did you wait so long to come forward?” Please suggest other questions in the comment section. This discussion will be included in that “something I can’t talk about at the moment.” I think TWW readers will be pleased with the outcome of all of this. It may take another couple of months to explain, but I can assure you that I think something good is happening for the victims.
The Christian Post wrote Lifetime registered sex offender once on ‘America’s Most Wanted’ leads church in Texas.
Chuck Adair, a lifetime registered sex offender who was once listed on “America’s Most Wanted” for running off with an underage parishioner, is now a ministry leader at Grace Place Church of Christ in Duncanville, Texas, and a part-time staffer with Watermark Community Church in Dallas.
“This is a dangerous predator,” warned survivor advocate Amy Smith in a video shared on X on Jan. 1. “He should not have a position of leadership as a pastor. He was not being truthful about keeping away from children.”
KERA News reported in North Texas church leader serving at multiple churches has previous child sexual assault conviction.
Both churches have posted on social media in the past acknowledging Adair’s prior time in prison, but don’t specify his charges.
Grace Place said in an email they are aware of Adair’s previous record and status as a registered sex offender.
“Mr. Adair has no legal restrictions preventing him from any of the activities which occur at either Grace Place Properties or the Grace Place Church,” the church said. “Both the Grace Place Church and Grace Place Properties families believe in these principles and are active in forgiving and encouraging those who seek restoration.”
Watermark Community Church elders said in a statement they are aware of Adair’s previous conviction and does not work with any minors at the church.
“Mr. Adair’s past has disqualified him from ministering to minors, but it has not disqualified him from the grace of God or participation in the body of Christ through service to other adults — including through our recovery and prison ministries,” the elders said.
Adair was working for a church when he molested a 15-year-old girl and then absconded with her.
Adair turned in his “I work for a church” card when he molested within the context of working for a church. He spent 10 years in prison after molesting a 15-year-old girl he met while working for another church.
according to previous reporting by The Dallas Morning News. That conviction came after he initiated a sexual relationship with a girl he met in his youth group while working for Garnett Church of Christ in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in 1990.
As reported by The Christian Post, he met his victim when she was 13, and he told his wife that he was “counseling her.”
He absconded with the 15-year-old and an alert was issued on “America’s Most Wanted.” He was arrested after just 11 days on the run in May 1995 at a Las Vegas Motel. After his conviction in 1996, Adair went on to marry his victim in 1998 when she turned 18 while he was in prison. He was 38. The marriage only lasted for two years
He reportedly got “sex offender” treatment while in prison.
These churches are naive when it comes to predators.
“Mr. Adair has no legal restrictions preventing him from any of the activities which occur at either Grace Place Properties.”
Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that the activity is safe or acceptable. For example, I would assume this church is opposed to abortion, yet abortion is legal. Does that mean church members should take part in that activity?
Watermark Community Church elders said in a statement they are aware of Adair’s previous conviction and does not work with any minors at the church.
Hmm, he doesn’t “work with minors.” I happen to know that Watermark is a huge church. I assume that the offender attends church services. There are kids in church services. Are kids in the bathrooms? I have written about predators who met their victims in church services and bathrooms. Does he attend small group meetings where children might be present? I’ve written about a church in which that is happening and allowed by the church leaders.
Grace Place Properties families… are active in forgiving and encouraging those who seek restoration.”
Precisely what is being forgiven? What did he do to the church? Do they understand that it is not normal for a grown man to have a sexual interest in an underage girl? He sexually desired her so much that he kidnapped her. Have those church members and leaders who are forgiving and restoring understand the deep psychiatric issues involved in this matter? Would they be surprised that he still is struggling with these feelings? Or do they think that since he is forgiven, these dangerous feelings simply disappear? Jesus heals everything…or does He? What about Paul’s “thorn in his side?” God never took that away in this life.
The future is quite difficult for those who have these desires. I am sorry to have to repost this. It seems that some Christians still need to hear this.
Here is a link at the National Institutes of Health: Paraphilia by Kristy A. Fisher and Raman Marwaha that explains this.
Paraphilias are persistent and recurrent sexual interests, urges, fantasies, or behaviors of marked intensity involving objects, activities, or even situations that are atypical in nature. Although not innately pathological, a paraphilic disorder can evolve if paraphilia invokes harm, distress, or functional impairment on the lives of the affected individual or others.
…The DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for paraphilia states explicitly that the patient must have experienced intense and recurrent sexual arousal from deviant fantasies for at least six months and must have acted on these impulses. A paraphilia becomes a pathology, or a paraphilic disorder, only when this behavior causes significant distress and impairment of functioning to the individual or if the paraphilia involves personal harm or risk of harm to others
…However, due to the patient’s reluctance to seek treatment or the legal obligation to obtain treatment, psychiatrists are often forced to exceed the call of duty to the patient to reduce distress but rather focus efforts on protection against potential victimization.
Those with paraphilia are often reluctant to seek treatment. Even when they do, the counselor must focus on preventing harm to another victim.
Read the section called Prognosis. It appears that those with paraphilias are likely to reoffend.
Despite the psychological and pharmacological interventions designed to manage paraphilias and paraphilic disorders; an ultimate treatment or change has yet to be established. Existing interventions merely allow for increased voluntary control through self-management skills over sexual arousal and reduction in sexual drive, with the best-yielded prognosis only from those individuals who are actually motivated to change.[2] Those who do participate in either therapy alone or, ideally, the combined management of psychological and medicinal intervention show improvement with a marked reduction in the intensity and frequency of deviant sexual arousal and resultant behaviors.[18] However, the literature suggests that most sexual offenders are likely to re-offend.[2]
Takeaway point: Literature suggests that most sexual offenders will reoffend.
A question for the pewsitters at these churches.
Were all church members notified there was a sex offender in their midst? If not, don’t the members and attendees have a right to know that the “elders/leaders” are allowing this man to attend services and functions?
What needs to be done immediately?
- The pastors and elders must educate themselves about pedophiles and child molesters.
- Members must be told of this man’s crimes.
- If all members and attendees were not told about this man’s presence, they should not trust the church leadership.
- Here is a test for Adair. If he has genuinely repented, he would not mind his picture being posted around the church so the members and attendees know who he is. If he gets upset about this, it might indicate that he is not being transparent.
- Adair needs an escort when he is on the church campus or attending functions and gatherings associated with the church.
Finally, and most importantly,
Adair should not be placed in any leadership position. He has demonstrated that he doesn’t even play by the laws and was willing to abduct an underage child who could not consent to sexual activity.
Prediction
People should watch this guy and protect their children. Ten years in the klinker does not cure molesters, and neither does the “sex offender treatment.” Treatment must continue throughout the offender’s life. Is Adair in intensive psychiatric treatment at this time? If not, why not? The church will learn of its ignorance in these matters in the coming years.
FYI: Does your insurance company know?
It is possible (and, in my opinion, quite likely) that Adair will reoffend. When that happens, the church could be open to a civil lawsuit on the victim’s part. The church insurance policy group will handle the lawsuit, and there will be a large settlement if there is sexual abuse of a minor. Then, the church will find it difficult to get insurance coverage with such a liberal policy of “forgiving” the offender. In fact, I hope the church has alerted their insurance carrier about their hiring policies.
While I’m at it…the church forgives him? That’s cheap.
Of course, it has. He didn’t do anything to the church. It’s easy and cheap for the leadership to do this. He only molested and abducted a minor who wasn’t in this church, so who in the church actually cares? The church and its members were not offended by this concerning predator. Instead, it’s time for the church to imagine how the parents and family felt about this. It is my understanding that forgiveness should come from those he offended.
What did Jesus say?
It’s not just DFW. This stupidity regarding predators is seen in churches all over the world. Never forget this warning from Our Lord: Matthew 7:15 NIV.
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
“He reportedly got ‘sex offender’ treatment while in prison.”
Oh, please tell me that means what I think it means.
Barney(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I find it telling that there’s no “who we are” or “what we believe” sections on the website.
There is a convenient way to “give” online, though.
Herringbone(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“What questions would you like to get answered?”
** What institutional structures or values contributed to the abuse, to your response to the abuse, to the reaction to you if/when you reported the abuse or sought help? What structures or values, what teaching or training, do you think would be helpful in preventing abuse and/or in better serving those who are abused? **
I realize this is kind of vague and business-school sounding, but I hope the general concept is clear.
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is an easy step when you begin down the slope of the church granting absolution.
Only God can forgive this man’s sins, and God may indeed have done so.
However, if we follow God’s guidelines in NT for who can serve in church leadership, the man gets the left boot of fellowship.
Forgiven? Quite possibly his heinous sins of the past are in the sea of God’s forgetfulness, as far as the east is from the west. That said, a pastor that knows his job will minister one on one off campus to this guy, perhaps even give him private communion, but do all this ministering in a way that protects the rest of the flock.
Brains? Any left around?
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
IMO, certain corners of the American church have become too trusting and forgiving in their “Biblical” approach to restore the fallen to ministry. Forgive if they genuinely repent? Certainly. Trust? Cautiously. Restore to ministry? Absolutely not!!
If “Mr. Adair’s past has disqualified him from ministering to minors”, he should be permanently disqualified from ministering to anyone! … in my humble, but accurate, opinion.
“Mr. Adair has no legal restrictions preventing him from any of the activities which occur at either Grace Place Properties or the Grace Place Church.” Isn’t holding a ministry position by a registered sex-offender an activity? Forget the “legal restrictions” part and do the right thing here. If Mr. Adair had his spiritual head screwed on straight, he wouldn’t even consider a church staff position – he would humbly be serving the Body of Christ in other ways. “Registered sex-offender” is not something any church member wants to see on the resume of a church leader.
Elders at these churches have become so open-minded about this that their brains have fallen out.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Well, I’ve seen all the “who we are” and “what we believe” I need to know about these churches in this blog piece!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My question for victims:
“Where you “trained” by your molester, or church, that bringing up the abuse would make you a “bad Christian”?
Or,
In the case of a women abused,
“Did you think that reporting/bring up the abuse would result in being labeled as a bitchy woman?
Or,
“Were you led to believe that reporting/bringing up abuse would “hurt the cause of Christ”?
Or
“Did you ever sit in Church and listen to a abuser preach about all the depraved heathen/carnal Christian behavior and then experience the same behavior from same said preacher? and then figure no one would believe you?..
I could go on…
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Questions for the video discussion:
“Why aren’t local authorities pursuing child sexual abuse by church leaders as aggressively as they do in secular organizations?” … “What can be done to draw more attention to police departments who give local “pastors” a pass on these crimes? … “Shouldn’t there be a National policy that there can be no statute of limitations in any State when it comes to child sexual abuse? Who could carry the torch through Congress to make this happen?”
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This morning, I read a commentary on Luke 16 by Diane G. Chen.*
Luke 16 begins with the Parable of the Shrewd Manager, which I’ve always found puzzling. Chen made sense of it for me.
While the manager knows he’s about to lose his job, it’s not yet public knowledge. So he thinks fast on his feet, and schemes to “pay it forward” to members of the community by lessening the debt that they owe to their master.
Chen explains:
“In one fell swoop, the debtors are relieved of a sizable burden of debt, the steward has secured a future after his dismissal, and the master, in spite of a financial loss, gains social status as a generous creditor. It is an ingenious win-win-win solution that words only because honor was even more valuable than material wealth in that culture.
No one would dispute that the steward is a dishonest swindler, but he is presented not as a model of integrity but of shrewdness. If such a negative character can outwit his master to extricate himself from a crisis, how much more should the disciples of Jesus be street-smart and use earthly resources to further God’s kingdom.”
It occurs to me not only how evil the church is by covering up abuse and ignoring and vilifying victims, but just how colossally stupid the church is being. Imagine if church & Christian org leaders would instead “pay it forward” to abuse survivors, both financially, telling the truth about what they knew and what they chose to ignore, and humbly learning from survivors what they can do to better prevent & respond to abuse in the future?
Isn’t it so obvious that, despite the financial risks & cost of doing this, that this is the only way to restore the moral credibility of wanting to spread the good news of God’s Kingdom??
Faith is not naivete. We must be as innocent as doves – and as wise as serpents.
_________________________________________
* This commentary by Diane G. Chen can be found in the New Testament in Color: A Multiethnic Bible Commentary edited by Esau McCaulley, Janette H. Ok, Osvaldo Padilla & Amy Peeler.
Elizabeth Klein(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Why do churches/pastors hire those guys?
a) They are naïve, and allow themselves to be groomed
b) They want to boast about the power of the “gospel” to change lives
c) They have a very low view of children and teenagers, and of female ones in particular
d) They believe that the abused person is just as sinful in the abuse as the abuser, and that all sin is just the same
e) They really don’t care, as long as the abuser helps groom enough pewsitters into giving money to the church
f) a combination of some of the above
g) all of the above
I personally think it’s at least f), if not g)
Cynical, moi?
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The ’cause of Christ’ has zero to do with the laws of the land.
Child sex abuse is a FELONY in all 50 states.
If ‘churches’, ‘mega-churches’, or just rank-and-file denominations refuse to vet youth leaders, they will pay the price.
The law is no longer reluctant to go after ‘churchmen’, and it’s just a matter of time before there’s a landmark case with a huge payout.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My question would be the same one I asked a pastor in our denomination who defended Robert Morris:
“If he had raped your daughter when she was 12, would you be so quick to want to ‘restore’ him?”
Also this one: “What would it take for YOU to disqualify a pastor from the pulpit; NOT the Kingdom, but active ministry?”
Every other person in the room that evening was incredulous at what this guy said, and pushed back hard at his (I’ll be kind) naïveté.
But Morris had “helped him” so much, so…!!!
Well, you know what? There was a time when I appreciated and learned from Ravi Zacharias; but I threw out every book of his I had, and let the congregation know that the “great apologist” was a sexual pervert, engaged in sex trafficking, and had lied about his educational credentials.
Sorry, but personal preferences aren’t biblical reasons to NOT defrock a charlatan.
PapaB(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
PapaB,
Early on I was raising questions about RZ lying about of his credentials….. in front of academic audiences….
I got significant pushback from people defending him….. it was really quite surprising…. And disgusting…over the years, I lost most of my respect for “religious leaders”…..
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Tells you what’s REALLY important.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Remember the SPIRITUAL is so far above the Worldly and Fleshly.
And the Righteousness of The Cause overrides everything else – “For the Revolution, Comrades!’
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jeffrey Chalmers,
It’s amazing to me what “leaders” will justify, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Unfortunately, many “leaders” have earned the disrespect they are receiving.
(BTW, I read that you teach at my alma mater, THE… )
PapaB(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
PapaB,
And today there is rejoicing in Buckeyeland….
Jeffrey J Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Amen! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen church folks defend bad-boy pastors because “they sure can preach”, “boys will be boys”, “he’s never done anything to me or mine”, “his child sex abuse was years ago”, “there’s a log in your eye”, “touch not mine anointed”, etc. etc.
With a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks, anyone (anyone!) can be a successful “pastor” in the American church. The level of gullibility in the pew has reached an all-time high.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Give honor to whom honor is due. Putting a child sex abuser on church staff is not an honorable thing, IMO. Becoming a church leader is usually not considered a consequence of such sin/crime.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I wish pastors would remember “touch not mine anointed” when it comes to 15 year old girls.
Ariel(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I am being serious. Read the linked posts. However, I didn’t realize it is a double entendre. Thank you for catching that!!
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
For those who don’t, Jesus talked about millstones.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A long time ago we had a man come into my church with a history of porn abuse. He was referred to us because we had a Celebrate Recovery program. Our church gave him a buddy, and he was not to access electronic devices while on the property. The congregation was informed of his presence and his issues. Things went swimmingly for a couple of years until he decided to access porn at his worksite, but he was contained at church. I think the church needs to follow up in a similar way, which is a pain, but necessary.
He left town, so I know nothing about him since then.
Linn(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I love Jesus too, but to be honest I have never seen these millstones.
Yes my friends and I would have liked to have seen even just one or two millstones.
I suspect they were instead mistakenly applied to witches.
Don’t tell me any afterlife stories.
This is where I get off the afterlife train.
The good work of this blog takes a different approach.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Questions I would like to have answered…
What type of responses would victims like to see from other Christians? (I don’t want to assume what they might define as helpful, but it’s an important question on my mind. And I realize that individuals might vary in their responses and that’s OK, since each person has a unique personality and needs can vary.)
Is there anything that other Christians can do to support victims’ spiritual healing? (My greatest concern about abuse within the church is that it can potentially cut off victims from sources of spiritual support and healing. I completely understand that victims may be done with church and God, once and for all. I believe that God understands that pain and causes him to weep. But I also believe Jesus’s intent in the lost coin/sheep/son stories is to encourage believers to help…but doing that must be in a way that actually meets victims where they are at, respects their needs and choices, and doesn’t create any further harm or trauma.)
Susan(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Oh, in Watermark’s history, I’m pretty sure they’ve applied millstones the weight of cars to faithful and moral members. I know they’ve ignored dangerous pastors in the past. This is not their first rodeo with pastors and elders who shouldn’t be pastors and elders.
ishy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Listen first and always. Don’t pressure someone to return to church, no matter if you think they are harming themselves or not. If they do seem to be self-harming, encourage them to seek a licensed therapist, not the church, and tell them you will keep being their friend without expectations.
Also, on a common misconception I myself face often, most people who’ve left the church are just as knowledgeable about theology as someone still in it (or more). I’ve had people tell me that I must not have studied the Bible enough or I wouldn’t have left. Most of those haven’t even read the whole Bible before (I asked them). Most of them only know clobber verses, and as I’ve said here before, many of those are mistranslated. If people push me, I will show them how they are mistranslated. I’ll be honest, most of the people who’ve gone that far then cut me from their life because they weren’t really interested in the truth.
ishy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
“Our honor defend…”
PapaB(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, Dee and commenters want to see justice on earth before Judgment Day.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As a Christian (not a victim), I would certainly like to see other Christians coming to the side of victims rather than defending pastor-abusers – as we’ve often seen by church elders and members when ‘their’ pastor is exposed for abuse.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
ishy,
I have seen/experience what you report…
Jeffrey J Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Couldn’t agree more. Mindful as you would know that sometimes defenders of perpetrators are in effect defending the organisation/institution/church body in which they themselves attain security, identity and purpose – benefits. Have witnessed ill ordered affection, self-interest and self presevation under the guise of grace and piety. Not an easy thing to point out and challenge in church leaders.
Prayer for more prophetic voices.
Ian Docker(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is not snark, but fact. These leaders demonstrate that you absolutely cannot fix stupid.
nmgirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Indeed! The Church desperately needs a penetrating and stirring “Thus saith the Lord” to shake the children of God back to their spiritual senses. I’m not talking about self-proclaimed prophets profiting from and abusing the flock … we need the real-deal with a now word to right the sinking ship. If we don’t have that, what’s the point in doing church?
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Gospel: How to tell the world that Church is safe for pedophiles, protecting pedophilia, without saying so.
Jesus said to “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel, the Good News.”
Obviously, these churches’ gospel, is not Jesus’ Gospel.
Who needs the AntiChrist when “church” is actually the Anti-church. Protect children, stay away from such churches.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A predator stays a predator. I attended Kairos in 2011/2012 at Gateway- one of the pastors began showing an interest in me and even though he was married I agreed to have a sexual relationship with him. After it was clear the relationship was toxic I left the church and he went on to have other affairs with other Kairos attendees. He later divorced his wife and married one of the women he had begun an affair with while she was in Kairos. He now works as a counselor, most likely finding new victims there. I felt shame and blamed myself at the time but I have come to realize that he was using my emotional vulnerability and abusing his power as a pastor to satisfy his carnal needs. Just like a lion will attack weak prey, a sexual predator will put themselves in a position to sexually abuse the vulnerable
C Downing(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I resemble that remark. I’ve lived your experience. After decades of trying to make a difference in the organized church, I found only a few interested in Truth rather than a diluted religious rendition of it. Truth is penetrating, changing, refreshing, living … few there be that find it. I’m a Done now … done with the “church”, but not done with Jesus who is “The Truth”.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
ishy,
ALR(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
ishy,
Hi, Ishy. Good to see you.
I’ve read much about Watermark. Disturbing cultic control, among other unethical things.
Do you know much about the new(ish) pastor, Timothy Ateek?
Since he’s a relative newbie, does he endorse the high control nature of the place?
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Please suggest other questions in the comment section.”
1. Growing up, how did your family and church shape your faith?
2. What were the circumstances of the abuse you experienced, and how did it impact you at the time?
3. What factors contributed to keeping you from sharing about the violations? What factors have contributed to your opening up about what happened?
4. How did your faith influence your feelings about the abuse you faced? Did you struggle reconciling your faith with what was done to you?
5. What was the reaction of your family, community, and friends when you finally shared? How did that feel to you?
6. How has sharing your story publicly changed your relationship with your faith, your community, yourself?
7. What support have you received? How can communities better support survivors?
8. What do you wish people understood about the effects of abuse in faith communities?
9. What advice would you give to other survivors who may be hesitant to share their stories?
10. Looking ahead, what changes do you hope to see within faith communities to prevent abuse and support survivors?
Bonus question: What do you say to men who hearken back to the Good Ole Days when church was a safe and trustworthy community for all?
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
(to phrase it better) I mean, would you happen to know if Timothy Ateek endorses the high control nature of the place (being the relative newbie that he is)?
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Gus,
You’re as true as the distributive property of multiplication.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
They live in a fantasy world like the one in which nigras woikin’ on ole’ massa’s plantation were happy and content.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I don’t know much about him, but he went to Southern and has upheld the enforcement of Watermark’s covenant, among which, has a line “Shepherded: I desire to be marked by a joyful submission to my elders as they are joyfully submitted to Christ”. So, I’m thinking yes. Watermark is a bit unusual, though, in that you can go on their website, sign the covenant, and become a member without even visiting the church. Their covenant is rather sparse in details, which has been a sign of some of the worst abuses because they can make “submission to elders” mean anything they want.
ishy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
There is a life cycle in all organizations. At first you have an individual who wants to “do something.” (Worship, sell shoes, fix cars, make music, whatever.) Pretty soon they realize two or more can get more than double the “stuff” done so they organize. And it goes well for a time, might even get large. At that point somebody decides somebody has to be in charge and usually figures that job is rightfully theirs. People being lazy means that person is allowed to be in charge as that takes the burden off others. That in charge person begins to see the organization as an extension or part of their very own self. So when the wolves move in, and they will as a flock of any kind is seen as prey, the in charge person sees the organization as needing defending at all costs, hiding the wrong doing, etc. After all, for the person in charge this is now life or death since it FEELS to them if the organization dies they die. Given enough time, the truth will out and the group lose members, maybe disband.
And round and round you go.
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
To Heretics, Apostates, Lukewarms, Witches, Uppity Wimmen, and all those who are not On Fire for Pastor SuperApostle. Praising GOD and Pastor SuperApostle all the way.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Because otherwise, all we’re doing is sitting quietly with folded hands mouthing Pious Christianese Platitudes.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
An Alternate Reality of Alternative Facts described by two taboo songs:
“Girls” by The Beastie Boys.
“Brown Sugar” by “Mick the Lip” Jagger.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“All Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm to Comrade Dear Leader!”
And I have an example of such Joyful Submission and First Time Obedience from an older WW2 movie, Is Paris Burning?
The German Occupation authorities are doing a Cleansing of Vermin. Night, outside Paris, lit by the headlights of military vehicles. Montage of closeups of Scandinavian-looking young men in German uniforms, the lights catching the double Sieg-Runes on their collars, the Hakenkreuze on their Stalhelme, and the on-fire enthusiasm on their faces. Trucks pull up, the Vermin are herded to the mass graves, the order is given, and the young SS-Manne instantly and cheerfully obey.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Remember Boz T.
In all his hears as a prosecutor specializing in Child Sexual Abuse, he NEVER saw a church who took the side of the victim. Always “Rally Round the Pedo, Boyz! Touch Not Mine Anointed! GAWD SAITH!” Every Single Time.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Which is one of the most damming statements on TWW…
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I won’t.
I have no desire to go to ‘Christian heaven’.
Streets of gold and jewel encrusted vistas just ain’t my thing.
I’d rather hang out with the Jews in Olam-Ha-Ba.
A place where the best of this Earth and life are carried on, minus the bad stuff.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Question for survivors:
What did you think would happen if you told the truth about your experience?
How did your actual experience differ from what you thought would happen?
What was your greatest disappointment?
What does “counting the cost” mean for a victim considering coming forward with the truth?
What did telling the truth cost you?
How many people from the people who at one time you considered your church “family” stood by you or even continued contact with you?
Many victims say that what caused the most lasting damage was not the betrayal of perpetrator(s) but the betrayal of others who may even have been considered friends at one time. Was this your experience? Could you give some examples for our listeners?
Eyewitness(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
jewel-encrusted? yuck.
why not a cabin or tent in a place like Yosemite or Teton National Park?
not that any of this matters. no one knows what it’s all about.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
ishy,
i think i’d enjoy going through reddit, yelp, & other discussions of Watermark with him.
or putting together a “secret shopper-” or “restaurant critic-but-church” thing, over a period of time, keeping records of what happens.
maybe Netflix would be interested….
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A medium-sized 1920s Craftsman-style bungalow with a wraparound front porch and good-sized back yard in a less-populated California.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Most often, ZERO.
Like German Jews finding out about their goyisha friends, coworkers, and neighbors after Kristallnacht.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
According to the Night of Three Dogs
Wash away my troubles
Wash away my pain
With the rain in Shambala
Wash away my sorrow
Wash away my shame
With the rain in Shambala
Ah ooh yeah
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Ah ooh yeah
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Everyone is helpful
Everyone is kind
On the road to Shambala
Everyone is lucky
Everyone is so kind
On the road to Shambala
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And of boys by imputing to us the gender obligation to coerce: turning us into sexual objects by proxy.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
linda,
In The people of the lie Scott Peck points out that in a specialised society, those at the cog-in-the wheel level have been taught to outsource their consciences. That would be bad spiritual values, a bad spirit. According to Jesus, us littluns have to and can share out critique and conscience among us all.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
elastigirl,
One of the Elders in ministry with me gave me a copy of John Burke’s second book on Near Death Experiences (NDEs) this past summer, “Imagine the God of Heaven”. I told her I would check it out, but I was skeptical of many of the reports I’ve read or heard over the years.
The book rocked my world!
I’m not shilling for Burke (a former agnostic engineer who has been studying these accounts for 35 years), but there is an INCREDIBLE similarity between much of CS Lewis’s “The Great Divorce” and what people who “come back” report they experience (some speculate that Lewis had an NDE when wounded in WWI).
From the accounts Burke has studied, they are in a place more real, and they feel more “alive” with not 5 senses, but scores. There are no color palettes on earth that are comparable to this other “dimension” of reality.
They report mountains, and wildlife, and pets (to be honest, I have not known how to answer when asked, “Do pets go to heaven?”. One person who had an NDE saw his little dog who had been his only companion as a child, the pooch even jumped in his arms and licked his face as he did when Randy would come home from school).
The one thing all NDErs reported was that the GOD of heaven is “MORE” of everything: more loving, more compassionate, more powerful, more “knowing” about our brokenness, and, more FUN (I know a few people whose heads would explode at that)!
To y’all’s point — the heaven of “churchianity” is NOT where we go (nor where we would WANT to go)!
Also, remember, heaven is not the end. Thanks to a modern focus on “Do you know for sure that you’ll go to heaven when you die?”, many forget that RESURRECTION and living as the Temple of God with Him in our midst is what we’ll experience for “Olam haOlam”.
PapaB(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I find myself reflecting more these days on “Know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit” (1 Corinthians 6:19)… that I am still the Church, even though I’ve taken a break from the church.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG, I don’t know where you live in California, but I hope you are out of harm’s way with the wildfires there.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
… not heeding the cries of the used and abused. Many corners of the American church are populated by Pharisees.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ll tell you why this last thing will never happen. And that’s because there is a dividing line between federal and state responsibilities. So, for example, if you’re a trucker, you need a valid commercial drivers license from your state, but your truck needs both a state license and also a federal license because you’re operating in multiple states.
This is why the feds usually do not take on child sexual predator cases unless the predator operated in multiple states or took a child across state lines. So, for example, Jack Schaap, the former pastor of Hammond Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, went to prison for “felony offense of transportation of a minor with the intent to engage in criminal sexual activity.” Specifically, he’d taken a teenager across state lines (specifically, to Michigan). This is why many CSAM cases are in federal court, because usually the possessors of CSAM are also engaged in some sort of interstate commerce.
States are VERY protective of their prerogatives and generally fight tooth and nail to keep the feds out of it. This is just an observation. And YEAH, I super wish there weren’t statutes of limitation, or exclusions of church leaders/employees from being mandatory reporters. We have one guy in the AZ Lege who has been holding this up for YEARS.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
An unusual NDE report on a Coast to Coast AM open lines night some months ago broke the conventional NDE script:
Phone-in reported a huge forested area with a large clearing with an enormous tree at its center which reporter called “The Tree of Life”. No humans mentioned, but large numbers of animals both wild and domestic around the tree – including reporter’s dog who had died some years before. Dog appeared young and in his prime, made beeline for reporter for knockdown-sniff-sniff-SLURP-SLURP-SLURP with hyperactive happy tail. Wanted attention and cuddles and play from his human, just like before.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
AZ is a red state and the western tip of the Western Bible Belt.
There’s probably a link between how Christian a state is and its laws and its statutes of limitation regarding child sexual abuse.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
SoCal but on the whole other side of Los Angeles from both the big fires.
I’ve been following the Eaton Fire (the one that took out the whole northern half of Altadena and about a quarter of Sierra Madre) because I grew up about three cities to the southeast of there.
And there has been a whole lot of crazy rumors going on about the fires:
* YouTube video comments about how they started, including arson by real estate private equity firms, Jew Space Lasers, and God’s Punishment for Our Sins.
* Clickbait headlines of “California: 72 Genders and NO working fire hydrants”.
* And the absolute weirdest, from last night’s Coast to Coast AM phone-ins. Fires started supernaturally by Demons from Hell trying to attack Donald Trump. Proven by some anonymous woman claiming she was at the start ignition point and the fire just erupted out of nowhere.
I’m just reporting what I’ve heard.
In any case, it’ll take at least a decade to recover from this. Jeopardizing the Olympics and WOrld Cup hosting scheduled for the next few years.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
C Downing,
Predator in pastor cosplay, then counselor cosplay. Making his classic predator moves. As he, the classic predator, moves stealthily throughout target rich environments, aka churches.
He knows exactly what he is doing. A wolf preying upon sheep.
Guidance for us, the sheep in the flock:
1. Don’t touch.
2. Don’t trust.
3. Don’t tolerate charmy slime.
Sorry you were prey to this predator. Thank God you got away. God bless you. Thanks for sharing. Sharing is caring.
May God deal with the charmy slime of a predator operating in churches, where he (sometimes it’s a she) doesn’t belong.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
elastigirl,
Yes indeedy.
I hope ‘heaven’ is different for different people.
You know, different strokes for different folks?
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
PapaB,
yes, these things are very interesting. i guess things like colors beyond our spectrum, feeling more alive with scores of senses in a more real place, and GOD being “MORE” of everything is sort of what i imagine.
i imagine it’s all very good (understatement).
i think our loved ones who have passed on are somehow with us, too, in some way. observing, perhaps. outside of time, however that works.
i sense my mom and grandparents and aunt at times, especially when extended family gets together.
Sandy, do you mind this imagining about the afterlife?
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Go for it.
I am convinced of an afterlife.
But not the one on sale in Christianity which features the individual ego.
Consciousness persists after individual death because consciousness is an inherently collective phenomenon.
We are the afterlife of every single person who ever lived before us.
We are the priorlife of every single person coming after us.
NDEs are interesting but ultimately fail to impress since none (zero.zero) of those people actually die.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG, I was wondering about you… seemed to remember you lived in the southern basin of LA, as you stated… but, what about Muff?, and there are a few other regulars that are from S. Ca if I remember?.
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Here is a test for Adair. If he has genuinely repented, he would not mind his picture being posted around the church so the members and attendees know who he is. If he gets upset about this, it might indicate that he is not being transparent.”
This right here. If someone has truly been forgiven, doesn’t that become part of their testimony and should bring glory to God as how much God forgives us? And, as always, why can’t people be allowed to make up their own minds? Give them complete information and let them decide where they should go to church and give their money. Churches need a refresher on Proverbs 6 where God tells, in no uncertain terms, that He hates lying! Is withholding information lying? Then what are you afraid of?
JJallday(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
yes!!
JJallday(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Muff is alive and well in Southern California.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Even farther from the nearest fire zine (Eaton) then I am.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
NDEs first went mainstream with the publication of Beyond and Back by Ralph Wilkerson back in the 1970s.
Which was followed about a year later by a slew of knockoffs by Christianese publishers concentrating on “Hell Trip” NDEs.
Real kicker since the original was written by the same guy as The Cross and the Switchblade.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So is it the case that NDEs are either heaven or hell more or less?
That could reflect culture, or be a cause of culture.
Even as a cause of how we think of the afterlife, they could still be entirely physical / mental reactions of either good trip or bad trip experiences of, you know, almost dying.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
“Shambala” originated in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, a mythical kingdom Paradise in the Himalayas ruled by a Buddha Matriya, the Buddha of the Future. Sort of a Tibetan Millennial Kingdom.
Over a century ago it became the rage among Western Occultism, primarily Theosophy; after WW1 Tibet had a reputation in folk belief and pulp fiction as a highly Spiritual place; both Communists and Nazis sent expeditions to the Himalayas in search of Shambala, which also got fictionalized as “Shangri-La” in the 1933-39 best-seller Lost Horizon.
I first came across it in a book tracing the history of Hollow Earth beliefs; apparently after the Himalayas were explored and found no Shambala, true believers moved it underground as a subterranean kingdom called Agharta.
“What a Long, Strange Trip it’s Been…” — The Grateful Dead
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me
Other times I can barely see
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It has been written that a wise man set out in search of a mythical kingdom Paradise in the Himalayas.
He and his three loyal canines carefully ascended the rocky slope as night fell like a curtain.
The rest is history.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
To our CA participants, your fellow Wartburgers want to know how you are doing in regard to the fires there. Please report in.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Seems like a no-brainer to me that EVERY State would have no statute of limitation on child sexual abuse … and that it be mandated that church mandatory reporters always do the right thing in this regard.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That’s just it.
NDE evidence is Ambiguous. VERY ambiguous.
But with “Beyond and Back” it got glommed onto by everybody – Christians, Spirtualists, Occultists, Shirley Mac Laine types, random randos – as Absolute PROOF!
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’m listening to morning LA drive-time radio as I type this.
They’re using “Dust in the Wind” and “Fire on the Mountain” as bumper music.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Praying for all of you….
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
researcher,
Things are a lot quieter today. The feared high winds didn’t return yesterday/last night to interrupt the work on perimiter firebreaks. WIthout those north-to-south winds, the fires will burn to the north into largely-uninhabited areas. The super-scooper fire bombers are back in action after that collision with a drone last Friday, and the containment percentage is growing on the two worst fires (25-30% for the Palisades Fire and 40-50% for the Eaton Fire).
The tone of morning drive-time has also changed, from “This Is It!” to recovery and rebuilding, from fire to post-fire. The personal-injury lawyer radio ads have gone into heavier rotation and are now fire-thremed. The daily press briefing and campaign speech from Los Angeles’ DEI-Hire mayor (two quotas in one!) has become boring with little new developments and in a situation like this you WANT to be bored.
A further sign that things have gotten back to near normal in this “land of 72 genders and no working fire hydrants” is a story that some Social Activists are trying to ban the “pink fire retardant” used by the air assets because of long-term cancer fears.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Today’s press conference; the D.A. is speaking. Seven looter arrests, TWO ARSON ARRESTS (copycats).
You know what the Romans did to Arsonists?
BURNED THEM ALIVE. IN PUBLIC.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Death by fire is long-term, too.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Great to hear that things are improving there and that the daily briefings are now boring! All we get in the media here are the sensational reports of utter chaos and destruction in CA.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
How many times have the covered the loss of Paris Hilton’s house?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you for the update. 🙂 There are some things I saw on the news — and was so happy to see. 🙂 One was that the winds were not as strong as predicted, and the other was that the super-scooper helicopter was fixed and back in use. 🙂
One of the things that amazed me was finding out that the super-scooper can scoop up 3000 gallons of water in 1 and one half minutes. 🙂
No offence intended, Headless Unicorn Guy — and I’m indulging my own sense of humour when I write: You might want to be bored 🙂 , but hopefully those that aren’t affected don’t get so bored they tune out and forget (as happens with so many disasters and / or crises).
When I was watching the news the other night, they had footage of red fire retardant being dropped….even amidst such devastation, there is such beauty — red fire retardant being dropped against the background of a blue, blue sky. 🙂 Or the singular beauty of a small tree, looking like upright driftwood….no sign of fire on the tree, only the appearance of driftwood. 🙂
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Mainline media report over and over the handful of celebrities who lost their homes, while the agony of thousands of everyday folks now homeless go largely unreported. Tears are shed for Hollywood stars who lost their mansions, while the cries of the now homeless who aren’t rich and famous aren’t heard. America is upside down.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
But doesn’t give doublepluswarmfeelies to the Social Activists, and that’s the only thing that’s important.
P.S. At the daily press conferences, morning drive-time turns OFF the coverage when they announce the LA Mayor. They turn it back on when the fire chief, police chief, and DA take back the mike because then you get actual hard information.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Here is the reason Chuck Adair was ‘forgiven’ by church leadership and restored to ministry. The patriarchal & spiritually blind leaders at Watermark & Grace Place don’t believe he committed any egregious sin. Wake up to the fact that many who call themselves Xtian & even pastor churches actually believe that our Heavenly Father allows (and even sometimes commissions)adult men to pursue, date/court, marry , & after the wedding repeatedly rape much younger women & even teen & tween girls. The diaper fire of a leadership at these 2 ‘churches’ might not publicly admit this, but hand to my ♥️I know they probably envy & even admire Adair for his despicable & predatory actions. In their minds, I’m sure his only sin was not obtaining the permission of his young & precious victim’s father before abducting her. Sadly, an uninformed or agenda-laden reading of Hebrew Scriptures might support such ideological excrement!Wake up Jesus-followers-there are packs of wolves in God’s House, and they are dressed as shepherds, & they specifically view the ewes in the flock as prey or even worse.
Barbara Kropp(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Barbara Kropp,
The animal gender metaphor in your last sentence (only) doesn’t work.
I’m the sole voice calling out the theologians and those in their grip (because there is a spiritual angle in the world) for turning boys into objects whether by proxy or directly.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
After all, he was just indulging his Appetites on those who don’t matter.
“AND BOY CAN HE PREACH!”
P.S. In reading reprints of pulp fiction from the 1920s/1930s, I notice they used the word “Appetite” for what’s now called “sexual proclivity”/kink/paraphilia with a strong vibe of the sick-o. Since “lust” has been overused to the point it’s become meaningless, I suggest we return to “Appetites”, both for freshness and for the accompanying baggage of the word (as in Mr Creosote-level gluttony).
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Before Y2K, my job had be staffing election days as an on-site troubleshooter.
Trust me, you WANT to be bored. Because if you’re bored, it’s not a run-around-in-circles-screaming panic party.
The Red Fire Retardant also acts a a fertilizer for regrowth.
And as for use of air assets in wildfires, it’s an intricate dance of spotters, airdrop tankers, command aircraft, and ground liason. About a ywar ago during a similar major fire in North Cal, YouTube’s “Blancolirio” channel had several videos on the command, coordination, and use of air assets. The channel is run by one Juan Brown of Nevada County (Gold Rush Country), an airline pilot who has firefighting experience (in spotters, not bombers). His channel first gained prominence when he covered the Oroville Dam reservoir overflow/Spillway breakdown and the year-long repair process. His channel mostly covers air crash analyses and investigations, so you may have to search for the fire coverage.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)