Photo by Marcelo Quinan on Unsplash
“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found d difficult, and left untried.”― What’s Wrong with the World
Next week, I hope to present a story by a young man who was harmed by Joe and Becky Campbell’s ministry. I will also assist another victim in filing a police report. Prediction: This story will garner national attention in the next several months. Also, next Friday, I will present a story about a woman whose stepfather abused her, and her church leader demanded that she stay married to him. She has started her own YouTube channel to call attention to this church she believes is a cult. She believes other members have similar stories. I will also do my best to catch up with some folks interested in telling their stories.
A “theological response” to polygamy, incest, and pedophilia.
The Gospel Coalition posted the following article, which greatly frustrated me: Noah Senthil wrote A Christian Response to Polygamy, Incest, and Pedophilia.
Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage and the beauty of chastity against the pagan practices of the modern age, so what follows is a biblical and theological response to polygamy, pedophilia, and incest.
The author believes these three issues occur due to current pagan practices. At this point, I wanted to shout, “Whoa there, cowboy. Ever play the game “Which one of these is not like the others?” It is surprising to see these three issues discussed in the same breath. Sometimes, incest is pedophilia. Both are seen as serious psychiatric disorders. I have written extensively about the profound, lifelong implications of pedophilia. In such cases, as with any case of incest involving a child who cannot legally consent, it is also a crime. But polygamy? In the same breath as incest?
Incest is a crime when it involves a child.
I put these words into a Google search. “is incest a psychiatric order?” One can see that the list of articles is extensive. As with pedophilia, it is not normal for an adult to have and act on a sexual interest in a child. As with pedophilia, incest with a child is considered a crime in the United States. Therefore, the pastor or church leader should report the crime to authorities. Due to the psychiatric intricacies of such behavior, church leaders or pastors should also quickly seek help beyond “biblical counseling.” The average church leader is not equipped to counsel anyone involved with incest. Only thoughtful, trauma-informed psychologists/psychiatrists and law enforcement should be involved.
Yes, incest is a sin, but it is complicated by urges to have sex with a child, and that compulsion needs to be addressed. At the same time, it is a crime, and a child is in harm’s way. The child will likely need to be removed from the offender by officials. Next Friday, I hope to present a story in which a pastor made families stay together despite reports of the molestation of the child by a parent. Also, a simple confession of sin will rarely, if ever, be the only solution. He should have mentioned this.
How do you love the victims well? How do you forgive a predator? This requires wisdom and courage.
…We must be willing to send someone to prison and then visit him with the good news that Christ sets prisoners free from sin’s bondage. Polygamists, pedophiles, and incesters can all be changed by God’s grace. “Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).
Pedophilia and the church
This is a hot-button issue for me. I started this blog due to many young teen boys who a SEBTS seminary student molested. In that “almost a megachurch” church, a group of women wanted the judge to return this prolific offender to the church. These women claimed they could help him. I was aghast. None of these women had the least idea of the intricacies of the psychiatric care necessary for this individual. Thankfully, the judge sentenced him to prison for 13 years. That was 17 years ago, which means he is out. It is also likely that he still deals with his compulsions.
The obvious position of Christianity, since the inception of the early church, is that pedophilia is an evil and grievous sin.
…There’s something especially wicked about abusing a child. Herman Bavinck lists sex with children as a “sin against nature.”
…Jesus said, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin” (Luke 17:2). The vulnerable and helpless are most precious in God’s kingdom, and their abusers will not go unpunished.
In many churches, church leaders work to cover up the sin of pedophilia. Although the author mentions generic crimes in the conclusion of this article, he does not drive home the problems inherent with pedophilia. Not only should he have discussed the need for third-party investigations in churches that have experienced the trauma of a pedophile, But few churches understand that there is rarely only one victim. In that SBC church, there were many victims, and some of them did not get the help and support that they needed.
I agree with the author that the age of consent laws should not be lowered. There are many estimates of the incidence of pedophilia in the general population. It is thought to be between 1-5%. With access to the internet, pedophiles have an open door to children. That should worry us since pedophilia is a serious psychiatric condition that may persist for a lifetime. This is not a simple sin cured by prayer and a pat on the back.
I wrote something about 3 people in the news with probable paraphilias.
What is a paraphilia? Isn’t it just another sin?
I have used this blog to expose pedophiles in the broader Protestant church. However, my goal in writing has little to do with exposing “one more pedophile.” There always seems to be more than one more pedophile. I have hoped that the reader will understand the complicated topic of paraphilias. Comprehending the difficulties inherent in such behavior is essential to protecting you and your family.
Here is a link at the National Institutes of Health: Paraphilia by Kristy A. Fisher and Raman Marwaha that explains this.
Paraphilias are persistent and recurrent sexual interests, urges, fantasies, or behaviors of marked intensity involving objects, activities, or even situations that are atypical in nature. Although not innately pathological, a paraphilic disorder can evolve if paraphilia invokes harm, distress, or functional impairment on the lives of the affected individual or others.
…The DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for paraphilia states explicitly that the patient must have experienced intense and recurrent sexual arousal from deviant fantasies for at least six months and must have acted on these impulses. A paraphilia becomes a pathology, or a paraphilic disorder, only when this behavior causes significant distress and impairment of functioning to the individual or if the paraphilia involves personal harm or risk of harm to others
…However, due to the patient’s reluctance to seek treatment or the legal obligation to obtain treatment, psychiatrists are often forced to exceed the call of duty to the patient to reduce distress but rather focus efforts on protection against potential victimization.
Those with paraphilia are often reluctant to seek treatment. Even when they do, the counselor must focus on preventing harm to another victim.
Read the section called Prognosis. It appears that those with paraphilias are likely to reoffend.
Despite the psychological and pharmacological interventions designed to manage paraphilias and paraphilic disorders; an ultimate treatment or change has yet to be established. Existing interventions merely allow for increased voluntary control through self-management skills over sexual arousal and reduction in sexual drive, with the best-yielded prognosis only from those individuals who are actually motivated to change.[2] Those who do participate in either therapy alone or, ideally, the combined management of psychological and medicinal intervention show improvement with a marked reduction in the intensity and frequency of deviant sexual arousal and resultant behaviors.[18] However, the literature suggests that most sexual offenders are likely to re-offend.[2]
Polygamy doesn’t belong in this article.
The author was quite concerned about a theodude, Vince Bantu, who was written about in Seminary Professor Accused of Secret Second Marriage.
Darren Young and Thurman Williams, who work in urban ministry in St. Louis, say they joined an accountability group with fellow local pastor and Fuller Theological Seminary professor Vince Bantu for moral support and mutual discipleship.
They felt honored to be in the group with him. Bantu is a rising star in American evangelicalism—an energetic Black scholar doing important research on the origins of Christianity and making it relevant to the church today. .
…But for the past five years, when Bantu was home in St. Louis, he would meet with his accountability group. The three Black men would talk about life and ministry and sin. They would try to set up guardrails to help each other avoid temptation.
Until Bantu started to argue that one way for him to avoid sexual temptation was to marry multiple women, the accountability partners told Christianity Today.
He denies that he said this and claims the men are jealous of him. However,
He was forced to resign from one church and one seminary in 2018 for an inappropriate relationship with a student. The student came forward, prompting a Title IX investigation, and Bantu confessed and stepped down. Yet there is no gap in his resume. The following year, according to his curriculum vitae, Bantu taught seminary courses at Western, Eden, NAIITS, and Fuller, where he was later made an assistant professor.
…Some of his students also attended Jubilee Community Church, where Bantu was an assistant pastor until he suddenly left without much explanation, according to a student who later made allegations of an inappropriate relationship.
…The woman recalled he also started to push her to be more physically affectionate, which he said was normal and healthy for friends. They would hold hands, she told CT, and hug for a long time, and he would kiss her on both cheeks.
“To me, it was platonic but weird,” the woman said. “I know people could look at me and say, ‘How could you not read that as romantic?’ I’m sorry. I didn’t. He was my pastor and professor, and I trusted him.”
The student was surprised, she said, when Bantu professed his love for her.
“He told me he believes you can have romantic relationships outside of marriage, and it’s biblical to be romantic outside the confines of marriage,” she said. “He would never commit adultery, but he was really hoping I would agree to be in an extramarital romantic relationship with him.”
The woman said she told Bantu she didn’t think that sounded biblical. It didn’t seem right to her. She also said she didn’t have feelings for Bantu but saw him more as a mentor, someone she could learn from. She promised not to cut off the relationship, though.
There were more confessions to accountability groups, but Bantu says:
Bantu told CT that while he did tell the men in his accountability group about “sinful actions” in the past, none of them occurred after 2019.
…The accountability group met for the last time in April 2024. Young, Williams, and Byrd told Bantu that he needed to confess, repent, and resign from ministry, and end his secret marriage to a seminary student.
So are Bantu’s alleged actions simply one more paraphilia like incest and pedophilia?
Bantu does not make the case that he has a “sexual addiction.” However, he is confused about the Bible’s view on monogamous marriage. He needs counseling, both theological and psychological. I believe that there are far fewer polygamous marriages in the church than in complex psychiatric disorders such as pedophilia and incest.
According to his summation, they are dealt with similarly.
While seeking full justice for crimes, we recognize that no one is beyond the saving and healing power of the Lord Jesus Christ. We must be willing to send someone to prison and then visit him with the good news that Christ sets prisoners free from sin’s bondage. Polygamists, pedophiles, and incesters can all be changed by God’s grace. “Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).
Most importantly, however, we must personally and corporately “flee from sexual immorality” (v. 18). We should display the glory of the gospel through the beauty of the Christian sexual ethic. The sanctity of marriage is—and will continue to be—the foundation of any flourishing society. We need strong marriages.
But I wonder if he knows what he is proposing in this situation.
We must be willing to send someone to prison and then visit him with the good news that Christ sets prisoners free from sin’s bondage.
I have hope that some churches will send a Christian psychiatrist to visit and help pedophiles, etc. Few church leaders know how to intervene in such a complex situation.
Please remember…Paul dealt with his “thorn in his side” for his entire ministry. God did not take it away from him. The challenge for the church or men like Senthil who want to “do something” is this. What happens when the pedophile/incest offender still has the urge to offend or participate in the abuse, known as viewing child pornography? What will you do when, year after year, the offender is still not “set free from his bondage?”
Senthil is now an adjunct professor at Biola University, which I know has a good psychology program.
Noah Senthil (BA, Wheaton College; MA, Talbot School of Theology) is an adjunct professor at Biola University and an editorial intern at The Gospel Coalition. His current research explores Protestant moral theology. He belongs to Grace Evangelical Free Church in La Mirada, California.
Here is my suggestion:
Senthil should go to a psychology professor and ask the difference between polygamy and pedophilia for a start. Ask about the potential connection of pedophilia to incest in families with children. Learn about third-party investigations in churches; Pedophilia is not like polygamy. Guess which one is more harmful to children.
Is it a sign of progress he didn’t include premarital sexual relations in the list? They probably would have a dozen years ago.
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“The author believes these three issues occur due to current pagan practices.”
I’ve never met a pagan, “current” or otherwise. I suspect the author had reason not cite expert sources.
Benny S(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage and the beauty of chastity against the pagan practices of the modern age, so what follows is a biblical and theological response to polygamy, pedophilia, and incest.”
The Bible is replete with polygamy. And don’t forget Solomon with his concubine a go go!
Monogamy is a greek and later Roman affectation. In fact it was Roman law. Jesus and his followers came from the Hellenized area of Galilee.
Before the Romans, the Seleucids ruled, so the monogamy of the new testament was very much a “pagan” thing.
Later the European Roman successor states adopted it, brought it to North America (and around the world via colonization) along with Roman successor Christianity and boom, the “sanctity” of monogamous marriage.
Now, like us, while Roman law defined monogamous marriage, Romans themselves had numerous affairs. I suspect the monogamy law had more to do with succession of wealth and titles – an attempt to avoid a slew of princes fighting for the same throne but I think history has proven monogamy didn’t solve that problem.
Anyway monogamy is no more “sanctified” than polyamory or open marriage or whatever.
Now before anyone accuses Jack of being a heathen libertine, I love my wife and our agreement is monogamous. Libertine, no. Heathen, probably.
Where god gets miffed, and Jesus speaks to this, is the breaking of the vow. We made a binding commitment to each other before god. In ancient times, to divorce a woman was to consign her to shame and poverty, along with her children – this could be a death sentence. Hence Jesus missive on divorce. It was not intended that partners should weather abuse or infidelity.
And the discussion of marriage has nothing to do with the crime of paedophilia. That’s just playing to the house how moral an just “we” are compared to the ‘pagan’ others.
The conversation about what defines marriage or re
However just
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“… One Short Post. No Wonder the Problems Continue”
Well, it should be clear to all by now that TGC ain’t going to scare the devil out of the church!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ok not sure what happened…small screen, big fingers.
Jack(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dang, that was getting good.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Looking at the original article, I think the author with incest is emphasizing consensual marriages/relationships with too close kin by blood though he doesn’t define too close kin; in that sense it can be be lumped with polygamy. Given the figures he is using his definition includes at least first cousin marriages though none of his examples are first cousin marriages (and at least one non-blood related people). One of his examples is ‘Judah sleeps with his [widowed] daughter-in-law Tamar (38:18)’ and says it is followed by bad consequences but doesn’t say what they were (the result was an ancestor of David and Judah admitting he was wrong not to have given Tamar to his one remaining son and that Tamar was right). The author also does a little dance about how closely related Abraham and Sarah were and why that was still ok. I note at one time the Catholic church deemed marriages between 5th cousins as not ok and some cultures frown upon marriages between people in the same patrilineage no matter how remotely they are cousins. So what definition is the author using?
While searching I did discover that the Catholic Church considered (considers?) Luther’s marriage to Katherina von Bora to be incest since both were in holy orders and therefore spiritual siblings.
Erp(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This got my exegesis “spidey sense” going… (“Wait, what does that passage have to do with anything related to this topic?!”)
I’m super concerned about what Noah Senthil was implying by quoting Luke 17:2 in the context of a few paragraphs on incest.
—> Is he implying that victims of sexual abuse have themselves engaged in sin or ‘stumbling’? <—
For the love of my remaining shreds of sanity, please tell me I’m not reading his article correctly because I’m about to blow a gasket and a fuze!
… so I read what I could stomach of his The Gospel Coalition article. Then found the passage from Luke and then poked around my Hebrew and Greek Bible app.
1. Here is the actual text from Luke 17:1-3 in the ESV because that is most likely what he is reading. Notice there is no mention of what the sin or stumbling is of the little ones. (See also Matthew 18:6 and Mark 9:42 for the same Greek word.)
[1] And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! [2] It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. [3] Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, […]
2. Here is the paragraph from The Gospel Coalition article.
“There’s something especially wicked about abusing a child. Herman Bavinck lists sex with children as a “sin against nature.” Song of Songs repeatedly warns against awakening love before its time (2:7; 3:5; 8:4); how much more should we rebuke those who awaken “love” before the natural maturation timeline of a child? The Mosaic law has clear laws against rape (e.g., Deut. 22:13–29), and we’re right to call sex with minors a form of it (i.e., “statutory rape”). Jesus said, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin” (Luke 17:2). The vulnerable and helpless are most precious in God’s kingdom, and their abusers will not go unpunished.”
3. Here is the Greek dictionary entry for this word translated as ‘to sin’ or ‘to stumble’. (I’m not sure how the Greek letters will show up, but am pasting it all here for reference.)
– Greek –
Strongs nt: 4624
okavaiço {skan-dal-id'-zo}
• okavdaiça from ocávdahov; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure): (make to) offend.
Used 28 times in the Bible
4. Like this might trip the algorithm on language, but… Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Whiskey Tango Actual Foxtrot, what is this? Victims of sexual abuse have not engaged in sexual sin any more than pedestrians injured by reckless driving were also recklessly driving when they were injured. Do patients who suffer from medical malpractice have a fault in the malpractice? Clearly not. And I could go on and on… pick a profession and we can come up with an example.
5. That bizarre article was infuriating to even partially read. Going to try to practice some good self care now…
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Friend of Park Street Church,
You are right, of course.
Senthil is completely out of his league in writing about these 3 topics, and way off course with the Bible verses he uses with regard to the same 3.
Example, you mention:
Senthil quotes Song of Songs (love), and Luke 17 (causing a minor to sin), on the topic of violating a minor.
Yikes! Violating a minor, including incest, if the predator is male (most are), is the male weaponizing his member to attack a minor, could be male or female.
Nothing to do with love or sex. Nothing to do with sin or stumbling of the minor who is violated.
The male weapon stabs, assaults, gores the victim, the minor.
See the novel “Legal Grounds”. Read the reports and case studies of minors, both male and female, violated by adult male predators. Bleeding, bruising, pain, ripping,
For the minor, the victim, being gored by the weaponized member of a predator is never ever love, sex, or sin.
Senthil et al: when you were a child coming of age, would an assault by a grown man predator’s member forcibly gored into your body be “love before its time,” your experience of “sex,” or “causing you to sin”?
Didn’t think so. Well, no minor experiences love (before its time or any time), sex, or their own sin, when gored by a grown man’s member forced into their body.
What happens to minors assaulted by adult predators is violence, pure and simple. Neither love nor sex nor the minor’s sin.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Obviously, TWW commenters do a great deal more diligence and discovery regarding 3 complex topics … far more diligence and thought than Senthil. The sharing of information and research here at TWW is inspiring.
All 3 topics have elements of age and gender. They also have a lot to do with when (what historical era) and where (culture, law, government) one is born.
Polygamy among 2 consenting legal adults has nothing to do with pedophilia and incest of an adult and a minor.
Assuming the consenting adult polygamy is one entitled male with multiple wives, the wives are consenting adults. So victims of their own misjudgment?
Once a woman has joined the group marriage, are there threats of DV or community shunning if she changes her mind and wants out? Will she be denied her children?
She may need help, but it’s a different kind of help than for minor victims of incest and pedophilia. She is an adult who consented.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Translation: IT’S GOD’S PUNISHMENT(TM)!
And of course, the Gospelly accusers with their bags of rocks are Utterly Elect and Sinless.
Like Homosexuality(TM), it’s a Sin that has never ever stumbled them the Elect.
And they just cannot understand why the name Jesus Christ is a nauseating stench in the nostrils of so many.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Don’t skimp on the brain bleach.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The Overspiritualizing of 500 years ago.
Last I heard, we were in physical bodies in a physical universe.
Didn’t Screwtape claim that the reason Our Father Below righteously walked out of Heaven was that The Enemy was going to contaminate Pure Spirit with filthy Matter in making Man?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Trigger warning: discussion about the use of language to describe sexual abuse.
(1) Wow this is way too graphic… could you be sure to add a trigger warning next time about physical descriptions of injuries from sexual abuse? Or ask Dee and GBTC to edit this post? It just seems gratuitous…
(2) Also, if you want to write about a penis, you can just use that word, right? If you are going to write about them, just write penis?
(3) Another option would be to leave those specific details to be sorted out elsewhere (like in court or in a hospital or with a therapist). Maybe I’m missing something, but I haven’t read a post from TWW before that has been so graphic….
(4) I don’t mean this in a sarcastic way; it’s a genuine question. Are you doing ok with this topic? Your writing is just so very graphic that I’m wondering if you are ok with discussing this. If you need a break, do take one. For any resources, please let us know what or how we can be helpful! Thinking of you and hoping for the best!
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Senthil should go to a psychology professor and ask the difference between polygamy and pedophilia for a start.
Sheesh. He should at least learn to use a dictionary before he starts slinging words he is clearly not very familiar with around in a sermon!
How did this joker get where he is and still be so ……. Intellectually and/or morally shallow? The man could possibly be intelligent, but he is sorely lacking in discernment.
I read Senthil’s article and reread portions of it. He lumps all sexual “perversions” together, as if acts of pedophilia are no different than a polygamous marriage between consenting adults……
…. and from his first paragraph under “Pedophilia:
Hollywood’s recent fixation with May-December affairs (in this case, older women having sex with young men who could be their sons) illustrates the extent to which older adults lusting for younger bodies is being normalized.
A May-December affair between two consenting adults is a sin, but it is not a crime…. a brutal, life-altering crime…. There is no comparison.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
—> Is he implying that victims of sexual abuse have themselves engaged in sin or ‘stumbling’? <—
Friend of Park Street Church,
I think so.
He certainly took the verse out of context……. with his education…. really?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Good question.
I’ve often wondered how guys like this even get published.
But then again, it’s not all that hard to figure out:
There’s a market for what they write, and people who will lay down their greenbacks for it.
Dollars and cents, isn’t that what it’s usually all about?
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Well stated. Two adults. No comparison.
An adult preying on a child is completely different.
Senthil’s statement “older adults lusting for younger bodies” which tosses adult affairs and pedophilia in one category is completely off.
Historically, Joseph and Mary had an age difference. They are both saints. Nothing about older lusting for younger in their biblical accounts.
An adult violating a child, pedophilia, is criminal with no exceptions.
Wondery has a podcast: “The Disturbing Truth” with cases, like that of Josh Duggar, that are disturbing.
A Christian who was an expert, FBI profiler, was Roy Hazelwood. His books are still available.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Originally, I wasn’t going to read The Gospel Coalition post, A Christian Response to Polygamy, Incest, and Pedophilia, by Noah Senthil, but I changed my mind just after I started reading the comment by Friend of Park Street Church. I was curious about the reference to Luke in The Gospel Coalition post….
After I read The Gospel Coalition post — talking out loud to my computer about a LOT of things that were wrong with the post 🙂 — I thought of commenting here on TWW.
After I finished reading all the TWW comments 🙂 , I considered not commenting, as some commenters had already commented on some of the REALLY poor exegesis (and the prooftexting) done by Noah Sentil. I changed my mind — again 🙂 — after reading the brief notes I’d made on Noah Senthil’s post.
Not only is Noah Senthil’s exegesis poor, so is some of his other “factual” research. I’m only going to note one of his many examples:
Seriously???? Noah Senthil thinks “sugar daddies” and “sugar mamas” are a new form of prostitution?
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Friend of Park Street Church,
We have different POVs. You prefer to anatomically name a male’s member. Children being violated may not even know that word. I prefer to describe the assault of that weaponized member – what is actually happening to the child. Never love, sex, or the sin of the child.
Obviously MALE clergy don’t seem to get what is actually occurring with pedophilia, if in their addressing pedophilia, the clergy refer to love, sex, and the sin of the child.
What a pedophile does to a child is absolutely disturbing, and the fact that the act is completely terrifying, destructive, and damaging is difficult yet necessary to talk about and write about. Particularly in reference to what the child is actually experiencing, which is never love, sex, or the child’s sin.
It’s the act, not the writing about, that is the crisis.
Pedophilia is 1/3 topics of Dee’s post. Quibbling about language about the holocaust of minors just gives the violent predators relief from the real topic here of what is happening to children.
Back to Senthil, he doesn’t have a clue what he is writing about.
With regard to what is not OK, that would be what is happening to the minors who experience their own personal violent holocaust of being violated by an adult. No need to put lipstick language on that pig. It’s violent, destructive, and TERRIFYING. All inflicted by a very disturbed male who weaponizes his member.
Christian Roy Hazelwood, FBI profiler, has written books that would at least better inform Senthil et al. Not make Senthil an expert, but better inform.
Wondery’s podcast: “The Disturbing Truth” is also informative, with warnings about how disturbing truth can be. They taped an interview, a sting, with a male nanny that was violating children. (It’s also filmed, available on YouTube.) The pedophile describes his acts on children, including infants. A difficult listen, but the video confession is how this man ended up in jail. You can witness this or not, on YouTube. Again, this would be informative for Senthil et al.
Truth can be disturbing, while absolutely necessary to remove predators from their targets.
Explicitly describing pedophilia would not be appropriate in a Sunday morning sermon. However, it is one of the 3 topics of this post, and not being honest about it, is one of the problems with Senthil’s post. Specifically not being honest about what the child is experiencing, is tragic. Case studies solve this.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
From the OP:
The Christianity Today post, Seminary Professor Accused of Secret Second Marriage, contains something I thought I’d mention….
From the Christianity Today post, Seminary Professor Accused of Secret Second Marriage:
(sarcasm on) So does Vince Bantu believe in polygamy because he’s listed as (calls himself) “chief” or “king”? Or does he believe — since he’s listed as (calls himself) “chief” or “king” — that he’s allowed to believe in (and practice) polygamy? (sarcasm off)
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Benny S,
““The author believes these three issues occur due to current pagan practices.”
I’ve never met a pagan, “current” or otherwise.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
pagan is a silly, non-thinking word for him to use. (all the sillier because Noah Senthil is supposed to be a professional thinker)
He writes,
“Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage and the beauty of chastity against the pagan practices of the modern age,…”
.
.
He seems to have bought into the popular christian notion that people who aren’t members of christian culture are goblins of sorts, only capable of gutter behavior and gutter thoughts.
the pagan riff raff who aren’t part of our members only club
.
.
I guess I see it in the reverse-
people outside the christian culture bubble have preserved their objectivity and can easily recognize right and wrong;
and tire of christian arrogance, patronizing them with stating the obvious as if its revolutionary.
and then christian thinkers take the obvious and go on to parse it all out with a complicated thesis;
while the ‘evil, worldly world’ says, “really? you couldn’t just see plain right and wrong but had to explain it (and have it explained to you) with long, pedantic essays?”
(…and expensive glossy-covered workbooks to discuss in groups over 8 weeks)
.
.
i have news for Noah Senthil.
it may not compute with your biblical algorhithm, but my agnostic, atheist, hindu, buddhist, and moslem friends and family have the highest integrity standards, and don’t permit themselves dishonesty, unkindness, unfaithfulness to relationships, or harming another living being. (a short list, really)
they needed no christian to tell them any of these things.
elastigiril(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“…the extent to which older adults lusting for younger bodies is being normalized.”
++++++++++++++
So, age difference in couples is suspect now?
are we supposed to make the sign of the cross with 2 fingers and back up slowly, no sudden moves, when with such couples?
Noah, get over yourself.
My male cousin is married to a woman 25 years older than he is. She was sexually attracted to him, surely, but chose him because he is an excellent human being and she loves him. He chose her for the same reasons.
quit with all the messaging that stokes christian paranoia even more, piling on new rules to twist people up into pretzels even tighter.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
He writes,
“Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage and the beauty of chastity against the pagan practices of the modern age,…”
elastigiril,
‘the modern age’ …… Ha! Senthil seems to believe that pedophilia, incest, and polygamy did not exist prior to the discovery of penicillin and the birth of Hugh Hefner.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
To me, ‘body’ and ‘soul’ are an integral unit.
You can’t have one without the other.
I no longer believe that the ‘soul’ is a separate and ethereal entity.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Background on Noah Senthil:
After internships as ‘Pastoral Apprentice’ and ‘Pastoral Resident’ at ALISTAIR BEGG’s Parkside Church, Senthil was appointed Assistant Pastor in 2022. He left that position after just 8 months. (from Linkedin bio)
[Alistair Begg was suddenly gone from TGC’s Council several years ago, without explanation. After being criticized earlier this year for counseling a grandmother “to attend her grandson’s wedding to a transgender person”, Begg was been announced as a keynote speaker at The Gospel Coalition’s April 2025 Conference.]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Begg
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/t25/
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Noah Senthil has a page on IMDb (the Internet Movie Database).
The TGC columnist starred some years ago as an ape-man named Tree, in the web-video series “Brotherly Love”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBgACfb8-5M
He can also be seen in “Urinal Conversations”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgQNyNJngZM
Jerome(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jerome
Someday, I will meet you face to face and ask you, “How do you discover all of this stuff?” You are truly amazing. Do you think I should tweet it? It could spark some interesting conversations.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jerome,
dee,
Okaaaaayyyyy. No plum acting gigs, no Golden Globes, Academy awards, or Oscars………..
So he jumps on the Gospel Coalition train to fame??????
Nancy2(aka Kevlar)(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jerome is amazing. Yes.
Regarding Senthil, his path has the Ralph Reed vibe.
Reed tried to be a rockstar, then settled for xian right star choir-boy wonder, then crashed and burned via questionable (corrupt?) politics.
For Senthil, there was a nod to Hollywood via his filming with rather dull crass “humor.” Then on to the church stage, then writing for the evangelical media stage on topics where he is clueless.
Bishop Barron of “Word on Fire” calls it “The Ego Drama.” That ego writes the script, then takes the lead, directs, produces, and promotes, as his own invention of a superstar. Ego is the center of it all.
The Ego Drama has nothing to do with the Theo Drama: God’s calling, God’s script, God directs, and God produces. Jesus is the only one promoted; the only Superstar is God’s Son.
Surrendering to the Theo drama would never produce this writing by Senthil. God does not mingle pedophilia with love, sex, and a victim’s sin. God does not amalgamate polygamy (adults with adult partners) with adults violently assaulting minors.
Before Jules Woodson was violated by her youth pastor down a lonely dark road into an isolated forest, she thought the youth director was going to offer to take her for ice cream. That’s because she was a minor, a child, with no inkling of a youth pastor violently assaulting her. She couldn’t even imagine what was going to happen to her down that dirt road.
The New Yorker just published a longform article about stepdad Gerry Fremlin violating his stepdaughter, beginning when she was age 9. This is a daughter of famed writer Alice Munro; the predator was Munro’s husband #2, violating her daughter from her 1st marriage. Evil.
When the daughter finally had the guts to go to the police, Fremlin, the predatory pedophile, described his crimes as the child’s fault. Of course he did. That’s what pedophile predators do: project everything on that completely innocent and completely violated child.
Same with Robert Morris. Another predatory pedophile who projected on, blamed his prey, children.
Unfortunately, both Munro and Mrs. Morris took the side of and supported the predators, their pedophile husbands.
Essayist Mona Eltahawy writes: “Essay: Patriarchy and the Women Who Love It.” This is in response to the Munro situation but also addresses Evangelicals. July 12, 2024. Google to find.
If Senthil doesn’t listen to women’s voices, listen to children’s voices, read real experts, and read case studies, no wonder he’s ill-informed and ignorant about the topics he writes.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Exactly. These guys are playbook obvious.
Ego drama, that has nothing to do with God-directed and inspired Theo drama.
For one thing, God listens to women and children. Obviously, Senthil does not.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A guy at my church married a woman 15 years his senior.
You (generic you) can tell that they were meant for each other.
Here’s what Jesus had to say to those people:
“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.”
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Muff Potter,
Emmanuel Macron, 47, and Brigitte Trogneux, 71, President and First Lady of France, seem to be doing fine.
Maybe there’s more to marriage than “lusting for younger bodies” or lusting for older bodies or any just lusting for bodies?!
Apparently this Gospel Coalition dude takes a very lusty view, IOW, low view, of marriage. Sad.
This has got to be the lowest view of marriage ever. Lusting for whatever specific age of flesh. Creepy.
Doesn’t the Coalition cohort read stuff from their guy before they publish? Are they all really that dimwitted and uninformed? Good grief and God bless their hearts. Lord have mercy. How to perceive the gang and their dude are ignorant without saying so.
There’s a whole world out there, Co-al-it-dudes, where grownups find they are friends for life, loyal, and committed for life, with lots in common (except their ages). Apparently, everyone but you all know this is true. All the Co-al-it-dude-bros could read TWW and learn a few Common Sense things.
But then, TWW was started and is run by a woman. Some commenters are also women. Women’s voices may be an issue for The Coalition. Are these the dudes that turn their chairs around to face away from the speaker if she is a woman? Can’t fly on one wing, bros. It’s science, as created by our Creator God. All praise to God.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Here are a few resources to promote safety among children by teaching them the correct terminology for body parts. It’s not quibbling about language; it’s teaching accurate vocabulary, promoting self awareness, refusing to pass on shame, and promoting safety.
To be clear “member” is too general and is not helpful in protecting children. When used as a euphemism for a private body part, it’s dangerous.
“His member touched me.” <— His leg? His elbow? His penis?
———————————————
1. Why We Should Teach Children Proper Names for Private Body Parts
Feb 22nd, 2024
Genitals, like other body parts, are healthy, good, and essential to our physical well-being. We name them “private parts” because they are generally off-limits to others. We keep them covered. However, these body parts are not so private that we can’t speak about them respectfully, with their proper names.
[…]
Slang names increase risks of child sexual abuse
When we teach kids incorrect names for private body parts, kids get the message that they will get in trouble if they speak about private body parts. They may not confide in adults if someone touches them inappropriately. This practice can shut down vital communication for children, who need adults to help them understand the world.
Sexual abusers rely on secrets and silence to commit their sexual acts. If children believe they cannot even say the names of their private parts, they send a message to abusers that they are safe targets. Abusers think children who are ashamed of their bodies will likely be too embarrassed to ever tell anyone.“
From: Enough Abuse
ENOUGH ABUSE™ is the nation’s oldest citizen-based child advocacy organization with a history of successes for vulnerable children that spans over 6 decades. It works in states, nationally, and with international partners to ensure every child’s right to a childhood free from abuse and exploitation.
https://enoughabuse.org/why-we-should-teach-children-proper-names-for-private-body-parts/
———————————————
2. An anecdote from a user on Reddit.
Show-me-the-sea
•
2y ago
•
As someone in the child protection field. It’s also important to teach them this as those that don’t know it become easier targets.
I’ll never forget the girl that told her regular teacher that the sports teacher had touched her ‘cookie’. The regular teacher laughed and said oh it’s good to share – obviously she had no idea. The the girls parents had taught her that the term for her vagina and vulva was cookie. Took another four months until we were called. The regular teacher was inconsolable.
———————————————
3. It’s Important to Use the Correct Names for Parts of the Body. Here’s Why.
Nov 12, 2024
In the realm of parenting, education and healthcare, communication is key. One of the most critical aspects of this communication involves the language we use to describe the human body, particularly when it comes to children’s genitals. Using correct anatomical terms, rather than substitutions like “privates” or other indirect expressions, is essential.
[…]
Reducing the Risk of Abuse
One of the most compelling reasons to use correct anatomical terms is the role it plays in protecting children from abuse. When children know the proper names for their body parts, they are better equipped to report abuse accurately, making it easier for adults to understand and take appropriate action. For example, a child who can say “someone touched my penis” or “someone touched my vulva” provides specific information that can help adults understand the situation and take appropriate action quickly. Additionally, abusers are less likely to target children who can clearly articulate their anatomy, as it indicates a level of education and awareness that can deter potential abuse.
From: Nationwide Children’s Hospital, Columbus, OH, USA
https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/family-resources-education/700childrens/2024/11/its-important-to-use-the-correct-names-for-parts-of-the-body-heres-why#:~:text=Using%20correct%20terms%20from%20an,consent%2C%20and%20safe%20sexual%20practices.
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’m wondering if this misuse of scripture and of Jesus’ words in particular are something like an inherited error. Have other authors on The Gospel Coalition misused this passage before? Senthil is still responsible for this atrocious use… I’m also wondering if he heard this or read this somewhere else.
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Really or DELIBERATELY.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That is the Jewish angle on the subject.
You know, the one that was around when this Rabbi from Nazareth was in circulation?
i.e. The reason the Christian afterlife was originally Resurrection in a (physical) Age to Come instead of a Soul floating around Fluffy Cloud Heaven like a retread of a Shade in Hades?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Marriage of Continence”: a marriage entered into to legalize the Sex and ONLY to Legalize the Sex.
Not that different from “I GOTTA GET LAID!” except there’s a ring and Bible verses involved.
“Married” seems to be Christianese for “Getting Laid”, nothing more.
Where’s the Companionship in that?
About as much as binging OnlyFans P*rn 24/7/365, no matter how many Bible Verses you want to paint over the fact.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Remember that Christianese Fiction/Music/Movies are nothing more than third-rate knockoffs of secular fiction/music/movies, consolation/booby prizes for those Forbidden to read/listen/watch the real thing upon Pain of GOD’s Wrath. Even the Jesus Racket Floor Show these guys ended up in is more honest than such Christian Counterfeits.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Now THAT’s Highbrow comedy!
(All I ever could come up with along those lines was (Mad Scientist voice) “At last! I’ve found the perfect donor for my schmuck transplant!”)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
We should all no by now that Theological(TM) and Real bear no resemblance to each other whatsoever.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Like something that stood out to me in Thought Slime’s review of/commentary on The Turner Diaries:
The main/viewpoint character’s first sexual experience (written in first person) is dismissed with one short sentence. This amid long exquisitely/lovingly-detailed descriptions of weapons and how-to make ammonium nitrate bombs. (AKA “In it for the Hardware”)
I am familiar with this exact pattern from “Men’s Action Adventure” novels of the late Cold War (AKA “Gunpowder P*rn”) and the general pattern from bad Author Self-Insert fanfics.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
First off, seconding the hat tip to Jerome.
I am not reading too much into the acting. Looks like he was in high school when his older brother had some film projects going. That being said, this guy graduated high school in 2018. He is 24 years old, fresh out of grad school, and lecturing us on sexual ethics. And no tent-making trade that I can find, other than acting in his older brother’s projects. There were several pastoral apprentice, intern, resident, youth pastor positions mentioned in his late teens early 20’s. This guy looks like he just completed his entry level rotations at Church, Inc. and now has his first placement.
Two of his prior TGC articles were published while he was still in grad school. What gives, does TGC use repackaged term papers as filler material? Others have already commented on the quality of the exegesis on display here.
I can already hear the objection: “Let no one despise you for your youth…” Nope. We despise when people claim to be authoritative but don’t know what they are talking about, but the gatekeepers who should prevent this publish them anyway.
Looks like he is all in on his other gig at Credo. Not a big fan of that group either. But that’s a whole different can of worms.
Grumpy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
We do.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Not at all. Etymology: Male member specifically derives from Latin membrum virile which literally means male sex organ. So while it is the correct euphemism in modern English in writing (literary), for centuries (and millennia) it was actually just the literal spoken common word, vernacular, to describe that male organ plainly. My comments are in writing.
My comments are literary, not clinical. In my novel, “Legal Grounds” written for adults, not children, and with trigger warnings, there is no anatomy. However, everyone so far seems to comprehend the story, what is happening, with no misunderstandings.
In “The New Yorker” article interviews reported by Rachel Aviv, the victims describe their childhood assaults mostly without saying that word, but their descriptions are completely understood. The women are not given to male anatomy terms, just to communicating what happened to them and their feelings. They know the “correct term.” That term is neither their concern nor their crisis. Moreover, it was used as a weapon, so that is how it is communicated, and how they felt, experienced. Anatomical terms aside. Anatomy is neutral, in no way depicting weaponry, which is what happens to victims. And these victims are now adults. What terms they used as children is not indicated.
That being said, the information you share for parents could be helpful. Case studies and such, how clinical of you. As mentioned in above comments, there is far more useful information and data shared by TWW commenters here than the theodudebros who pretend to know what they are writing about.
In your example: The parents that used the word “cookie” … set their daughter up for trouble. Creepy. As you point out, parents make a difference. Using that term, cookie, in that way is telling with regard to the parents. No child, and no part of a child is a sweet treat. If they are, there is something wrong.
Clinicians use dolls and have child victims draw pictures. Parents walk a fine line of how much, in what way, with what terms, and when, to share about human anatomy, and how things work.
TWW has had a number of examples of adults, like youth leaders, sharing LOTS of info and terms with minors, grooming them. So there’s that.
This is a complex topic, as your research shared indicates.
My comments, again, are literary, not clinical, and not from or for a parental handbook, like your own.
Hopefully trained professionals would know the indication of male member. However, today it is more a literary, not a clinical term. Clinicians get to truth beyond vocabulary. And how parents teach and protect children matters.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think I know what influenced that choice of words:
“THe Man Penetrates! Colonizes! Conquers! Plants! The woman lies back and Accepts.”
— REVEREND Doug Wilson, Pope of the Palouse
And wasn’t there a Pat Benatar song in the Eighties titled “Stop Using Sex as a Weapon”?
Outside the bubble, Christians have a reputation as Prissy Prudes. Sometimes graphic language is needed to drive home the emotional point and break through the bubble’s Prissy Prude event horizon.
In writing fiction, I have found that it is often the strong emotions which put power behind the narrative, and strong emotions often express themselves in graphic language and crude imagery.
But who uses that term except doctors and clinicians? That particular tube of erectile tissue has more “street names” than any other part of the anatomy. (At least for males; for females it’s split between breasts and vulva.) And everybody outside of YouTube’s Algorithm uses the street names.
And Christians are worse than The Algorithm in speaking around the subject. Long ago (in this blog?), there was a report about a preacher who after a sermon describing female genitalia in clinical-to-exquisite detail, immediately flipped into baby-talk when it came to his own male genitalia.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Not sure about all this terminology. I use “male member” as correct in literature, and at one time, correct in vernacular. And I’m writing in adult forums for adults.
Maybe Dee could write a trigger warning for the blog newcomers that TWW discusses adult topics, and the commentors try their best with word choice.
Two things we know about pedophilia, are:
1. It is a complex topic as pedophiles stealthily embed themselves in camou in civil society. Need we all be detectives? Perhaps that’s why Discernment is a GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. From God’s Holy Spirit, Discernment is supernatural. Meanwhile, all decent people who care, try to be properly educated as we all learn more. TWW is a blessing.
2. Pedophiles are a violent lot, underneath their stealthily placed camou.
One of our pastors was counseling a family’s teens regarding the abuse happening in that family’s home by their fundy Christian Family Values “godly” dad, no less. When the pastor went to the home to confront the dad, the dad went to the closet to get his gun. Fortunately, the kids had the foresight to hide the dad’s gun. Our pastor learned real quick about the underlying violence of a predatory pedophile.
When it comes to whistleblowers, predators will attack, at the very least with smear campaigns. Pedophiles are attack dogs or wolves from the get-go, even as they sweetly offer “love” or “come see the puppies” to children.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This makes my blood boil, a little.
At least in the kinds of abuse we are talking about, it is sadly and empirically false.
I am not aware of any case in which this spirit informed Christians of a sexual predator in their midst. Surely there are some cases?
The opposite is true—this spirit of discernment often said, for example, “Look at this fine Catholic priest who favors our family. Let’s give him access to our children.” Over and over, denying the truth even when it became plain.
Camp Kanukuk is a massive example for evangelicals. Did none of those spirit-filled parents, administrators, counselors, and campers have this spirit? Apparently not. Why not, if they were so pious, prayerful, and “spirit filled”?
I believe that the Holy Spirit is real, but quite limited in reach and power. That’s what the evidence says. That’s why we take things into our own hands.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Different POV here. However, I have empathy for all of the suffering of humanity, that I believe was not God’s intention when He created each woman and man in His image.
The gifts I refer to are listed in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, and Ephesians 4. I’ve seen them in action among God’s people, including Discernment. The gentleman in my church who had that gift (he has since passed on) was generally ignored, however, those who listened benefited. We felt fortunate to know him. He was very unassuming. I never saw him call out demons, but he quietly perceived motives and agendas, what was coming down the road, which was very helpful.
As far as all the circumstances of everyone all the time, with suffering, we don’t know. But we do know that even the Apostle Paul was gifted in many ways, faithful to God and his calling, but was not healed when he asked x3.
Peter was miraculously delivered from prison only to later die on a cross, executed, a martyr.
Personally, I pray to honor the gifts God gives through His Holy Spirit to the Church, all 18 gifts.
I’m sure TWW community has much more to share on this important complex topic. We want to see children, and everyone, in our respective communities protected from evil, just as you mention.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fair enough. I am not here to belittle discernment. We certainly need more, and many indeed are discerning. We are all capable of increasing in discernment, especially if we hone our skepticism.
Three cheers for discernment!
I have been told since I was a child that I am discerning. I was given an Indian name meaning “Discerning One” in a secret Boy Scout ritual. I do feel a certain edge sometimes. Yet I am sure that any such gift I have is quite fallible and limited, and not supernatural in the typical sense of that word.
I avoided abuse when I was an altar boy because 1) I was a big kid, 2) my dad was a strapping steelworker, 3) and I had a solid attachment to both parents. I feel certain that there was not one single person in my parish that had any discernment that any of our priests were even slightly capable of sexual abuse. I suspect the same is true in every denomination. Why? Did the Holy Spirit bypass her entire Church in such matters? Why were innocent altar boys and their parents bereft of this gift.
I notice you give a limited number of examples, none in the realm of sexual abuse. Why is the Church such a hunting ground, and if such a gift is available (in the specific domain of sexual predators, why does it seem almost completely absent? Serious question.
Discernment is built by asking hard questions with a skeptical and loving mindset, I think. Let’s build discernment. I believe that TWW is doing exactly that—but has blind spots related to theological commitments. I am calling that out.
You invoke the TWW community and I heartily second that.
TWW—Are there cases in which supernatural discernment prevented sexual abuse? I have been looking most of my life for such cases around altar boys, and I have found …. none. I am all ears. Let me stipulate that I am not talking about common sense discernment such as “we didn’t knock on that perverts door on Halloween” or “I didn’t go out on a second date with Johnnie Doe because he was fishy.”
You say “we don’t know” why.
So as a person accused of discernment by his fellow Christians, let me be so bold as to say that we do know, according to empirical evidence.
It is because discernment of sexual predators is not a supernatural gift.
Things we are told by Paul are not reliable, for many reasons. (Why would they be?)
The discernment of sexual predators is a human endeavor made sharper by a coalition of believers, agnostics, atheists, and weirdos, and by our secular legal judicial system, all as wonderfully enhanced by the internet.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
The Internet enhances everything.
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Why do I see a guy on a horse?
Where is that whistle coming from?
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Wonderful key blessings. How we pray for these significant blessings for every child.
These are exactly the questions we discuss at TWW.
I wrote a novel to illustrate what I’ve seen: “Legal Grounds.” It’s on Amazon. I wrote it for women, so they know they are not alone. But there are guys that have read and reviewed.
It seems Evangelical churches may not recognize, value, or look for all the gifts. The preacher wants to preach and bring in big donors. Ladies need to serve, potlucks and such.
A woman who clearly had the gift of evangelizing was ignored at church but she evangelized everywhere she went anyway, carrying little Bible verse booklets in her purse. (She, too, has passed on.)
Regarding churches being a hunting ground, IMHO, we need:
1. Accountability for all (like in any work or social place)
2. Listening to everyone’s voices, and
3. Maintaining proper boundaries.
In the case of Blake Lively vs the studio who hired her costar that was harassing her, Blake got a lawyer to mandate 30 safeguards, mid-production, to protect her.
That’s 30 mandates.
What are the mandates needed in religious institutions to protect vulnerables? Not everyone is blessed with your dad, your wonderful parents, and your stature.
In the book of Acts in the Bible, all 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit were present, yet the church was still hashing out how to do church the best for all.
Thanks for all of your great insights for practical measures. God bless.
(I did witness the Discernment guy in church filter out some problem people. He recommended good boundaries around certain people LONG before any problems. He would detect narcissism, for example, and then privately recommend not giving that person access, before any impropriety, from the get-go. Worked well.)
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
All the adults in my circle use the correct name for penis… maybe it’s a generational change? (Although, my parents use this word too and they are in the Boomer generation.)
We are not ashamed to say the word because it is just what it is… and we don’t want our young sons and daughters to grow up thinking that anything is wrong with a penis so much so that we can’t even mention it by name. It’s not clinical… it’s just a penis… I’m still not sure I can explain more than the experts who have published on this topic.
It’s not Voldemort, “he who must not be named”…
Again, maybe this is a change in parenting for those who have young children these days… ruffling the feathers of those who are still uncomfortable calling a penis by name is a small price to pay (and maybe it doesn’t even ruffle feathers for many!) for the sake of raising healthy, self aware, and unashamed kiddos… who are safer (however we measure this) from sexual abuse.
——————————————-
I can’t read your tone here. Are you saying clinical is bad? This is a genuine question. I’m not being sarcastic. I’m just trying to understand what you wrote.
——————————————-
Etymologically, “member” means something more like “flesh” or “limb”… one needs to modify it with “virile” to specify that it is referring to a penis.
Merriam-Webster
member
noun, often attributive
mem·ber | \ ˈmem-bər \
Definition
1 : a body part or organ: such as
a : LIMB
b : PENIS
c : a unit of structure in a plant body
[…]
First Known Use
14th century, in the meaning defined at sense 1
History and Etymology
Middle English membre, from Anglo-French, from Latin membrum; akin to Goth mimz flesh, Greek mēros thigh
——————————————-
The Oxford English Dictionary
member
noun
/ˈmembə(r)/
/ˈmembər/
1. a person, an animal or a plant that belongs to a particular group
[…]
5. (old use or literary) a part of the body, especially an arm or a leg
6. (formal) a penis. People say ‘member’ to avoid saying ‘penis’.
– Word Origin
Middle English: via Old French from Latin membrum ‘limb’.
——————————————-
The Oxford English Dictionary
virile
adjective
/ˈvɪraɪl/
/ˈvɪrəl/
(usually approving)
1. (of men) strong and full of energy, especially sexual energy
2. having or showing the strength and energy that is considered typical of men
– a virile performance
– virile athleticism
Word Origin
late 15th cent. (in the sense ‘characteristic of a man’): from French viril or Latin virilis, from vir ‘man’.
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you.
May Gods love be with you, and yours, and everyone.
Sandy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
Thanks so much. God bless you, too.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Sandy,
The etymology info you list are not for the literary term.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The two you refer to use massa’s tools to pretend to pull down massa’s house. The YRR say there isn’t any truth and these two agree.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ava Aaronson,
My error. This reply went to the wrong comment.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Friend of Park Street Church,
The etymology info you list are not for the literary term.
IMHO, you’ve made your point about parents teaching specific anatomy terminology to children. And subsequently clinicians clarifying child testimony via this terminology.
I write using literary terms for adult audience.
Apples and oranges.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ava Aaronson,
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Friend of Park Street Church,
TGC sloppiness augments its poison continually as deflection from guilt at the compromise into “influencing” 60 years ago.
I suspect it was something like, we know what you would rather do, and some of your (ex-public school, grammar school, secondary modern) pals are doing, but if you go through the born again hoops or whatever they are called this week, you’ll be alright in the sky.
The genuine prophets and apostles simply said to power, “stop oppressing those smaller than you”, didn’t “dangle” anything, didn’t try to reap where they sowed.
Centring the nations’ religion around that codependency is why “evangelicalism” including the fake “charismatic” has no concept of a spiritual layer of things.
What they bound on earth is bound in heaven and they steal the possibility of belief and gifts from those smaller than them. (Whatsoever is not of faith, for those who had been called to faith – St Paul addresses leaders – is not giving what is due. Luke has both debts and trespasses in the Lord’s Prayer; if they claim to be leaders in religion are they giving children their due in opportunity to believe. Muscular christianity and theology of the body are works of the flesh.)
Their denial of the gifts in their smaller peers (the meaning of eucharist) is what caused some of them to become as St Paul points out, dead hands, dead in the water, dead wood, dead on their feet . . .
That is why they were no defence against Wimberism (power craze), moralising and malfunctioning bureaucracy.
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
further to 04:32 a.m are they giving children the opportunity to trade in the kingdom talents by their modelling the ultimate robber baron god?
Michael in UK(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I agree that polygamy is not like pedophilia or incest. Those involve people who cannot legally consent (and likely would not if they legally could), whereas polygamy involves consenting adults.
It is true that there is no specific Biblical prohibition against it. However, every time it is mentioned, it isn’t done so in a good light.
The first mention of it involves Lemuel, the 5th in line from CAIN. That right there shows the problems to come. Then you have Samuel’s dad and the bickering between his wives. Of course, the issues with David and his harem, and Solomon (who’s theme song, were it to have existed in his day, could have been “Me So Horny”).
Mark R(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
A Jewish contact of mine used that as an example of “the Subversive Wisdom of Torah”, along with Honor Killings and Slavery. All three of these were fundamental laws of nature in Semitic tribal culture of the time; if Torah had said “No”, they would have blown it off as Crazy Talk and done it anyaway. So Torah had to get sneaky:
Yes, polygyny is a constitutional right of the rich and powerful; let ha-Tanakh in its stories demonstrate all the ways it can go sour.
Yes, Honor Killings are permitted, but Torah says the family doing it has to first get permission from “those at the city gate”, i.e. The Legal Authorities. At the City Gate = IN PUBLIC. Since the purpose of an Honor Killing is coverup – “dead wimmen tell no tales” – having to get permission in public defeats that purpose.
Yes, slavery is universal, a mark of Civilized people. Let Torah regulate it with restrictions and Jubilee years to the point that it’s less hassle to just hire free workers. (Granted, the slaveowners got very creative in finding loopholes and the Prophets were always calling them on it , citing the Regulations…)
Subversive Wisdom; since forbidding these and similar Fundamental Laws of Culture wouldn’t work, regulate them to the point they defeat themselves and point out the drawbacks.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)