Al Mohler Plays a Game When Asked If Jimmy Carter Is ‘Born Again.’

Posted on by December 23, 2024avatar

“This world is a great sculptor’s shop. We are the statues and there is a rumour going round the shop that some of us are some day going to come to life.” – Mere Christianity: CS Lewis.

Sometimes, I get tired of gamesmanship, especially in the SBC, which has seen its share of problems in the last few years. Baptist News Global posted: In a three-hour interview, Mohler says he ‘hopes and prays’ Jimmy Carter is born again.

Toward the end of the nearly three-hour interview with Sean DeMars, lead pastor at Sixth Ave Church in Decatur, Ala., Mohler responded to a listener question: “Do you think that Jimmy Carter is a born-again Christian?”

…“I have to hope and pray,” he replied. “So I’ve had some personal engagements with the former president. He has mentioned me in four books. Negatively. … He’s not a fan of the conservative resurgence in the SBC. And remember, I got into the thickest controversy early in my life in Georgia where I was editor of the paper, which guess what? Jimmy Carter’s in Georgia and cares a lot about Georgia.”

…Mohler described Carter as “like your typical SBC deacon in a more liberal church.”

A major theme of the interview was about Mohler’s embrace of conservativism and Calvinism and the early battles he fought at Southern Seminary to rid the school of its “liberal” faculty.

Jimmy Carter meant something to me many years ago. I grew up in a liberal family. When I became a Christian, I looked for examples of the faith within the context of a more liberal point of view. There was Jimmy Carter. I will not speak of his politics but of the man I saw in my early Christian walk. He spoke openly of his faith. He taught Sunday School for most of his life. He went to church and made it seem like that was a good thing to do. He built houses for Habitat for Humanity.

This article talks of his faith: A talk about faith with former President Jimmy Carter.

One of the cornerstone’s of President Carter’s faith is prayer, a discipline instilled in him as a young boy. He told me, “There have been a lot of times when we’ve prayed and God’s will has been done. And when my prayer was compatible with God’s will, then that’s when I know they’re answered.”

… “When we came home from the Navy to live in Plains, I had been in the Navy when Harry Truman eradicated racial segregation for all the military services. So I came home as a much more liberal person on the race issue than the rest of the folks who lived here were. A group of people in Sumter County organized a boycott against my business, and we were kind of pariahs in Plains for a while, my wife and I both.”

… As a Christian, President Carter believed in personally spreading the gospel. “I’ve always wanted to share my faith with other people,” he said. “Even when I was a midshipman at the Naval Academy, I taught Sunday School every Sunday.”

… President Carter continued to teach Sunday School at his home church in Plains well into his 90’s. The last lesson he taught was in November of 2019.

I do not mistake political beliefs for Christian beliefs, for the most part. Carter exemplified a man who lived out his faith.

But Mohler is not interested in that part of things. Carter does not kowtow to Mohler’s exacting Calvinist beliefs. Carter also criticized Mohler on several occasions, especially his takeover of SBTS. I know of some fired that have a deep and lasting faith. Mohler does not seem to see it that way.

I have a different perspective on judging people. I’m sure you know the following verses.

Matthew 7:1-3 NIV

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

We are supposed to judge some actions, or there would not be a need for the Ten Commandments. However, there is one thing that we cannot judge, and that is someone’s salvation. There is only one author of the Book of Life, and I understand God does not need ghostwriters.

I have a good friend who is a married gay man. When we first met, we went to dinner, and he asked me a question.

I have a good idea of your beliefs. How do you feel about me?

I asked him,

Have you read the Bible?

And he answered

Yes, but I look at those verses differently.

I realized that he was anticipating I would argue the same old verses. Instead, I smiled and said:

I believe that we will all stand before God one day and give an account for our lives. At this juncture, I am more concerned about the account that I will give to Him.

I remember thinking, “For example, I remember the time I…” well, you know what I mean. Each of us stands before our Lord, and He gets to judge. He gave all of us free will, and we are all a people in process. Until we go to be with the Lord, our stories are not fully realized. He knows what He is doing, and I rest on that knowledge.

I got out of the “who’s saved and who’s not saved” game long ago. But I do judge on things that should be judged, and my work in exposing abusers is part of that. And just in case you think I’m saying that ‘everyone is saved,’ I assure you I am not. I’m simply saying that I trust God for His final judgment.

If asked if he were ‘born again,’ I would say that I like Jimmy Carter and admire how he conducted his life after his presidency. He says he is a Christian and has acted better than many pastors I have known. In the end, I trust God knows precisely what is happening in his heart and life, so I rest peacefully.

What can you ever really know of other people’s souls—of their temptations, their opportunities, their struggles? One soul in the whole creation you do know: and it is the only one whose fate is placed in your hands. If there is a God, you are, in a sense, alone with Him. You cannot put Him off with speculations about your next door neighbours or memories of what you have read in books. What will all that chatter and hearsay count (will you even be able to remember it?) when the anaesthetic fog which we call “nature” or “the real world” fades away and the Presence in which you have always stood becomes palpable, immediate, and unavoidable?

– Mere Christianity:CS Lewis

I am interested in hearing pushback about what I am saying.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

Comments

Al Mohler Plays a Game When Asked If Jimmy Carter Is ‘Born Again.’ — 162 Comments

  1. Many outside the walls of the church look to Jimmy Carter as an example of what a true Christian looks like.

    Many outside the walls of the church look at men like Mohler, MacArthur, etc and say “there is no hate like Christian love”.

    Jesus said: By their fruits you shall know them.

    All the Christmas hymns sung so beautifully and sincerely in churches across the landscape this week mean nothing if hatred and judgement are what those sane worshippers engage in as soon as they walk out the doors of their churches.

    Peace on earth begins with me.
    God bless Mr Carter for showing us what that looked like in a man holding such a high position.

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  2. > “If asked if he were ‘born again,’ I would say that I like Jimmy Carter and admire how he conducted his life after his presidency. He says he is a Christian and has acted better than many pastors I have known. In the end, I trust God knows precisely what is happening in his heart and life, so I rest peacefully.”

    It’s not clear to me why Mohler’s position that he “‘hopes and prays’ Jimmy Carter is born again” merits harsh critique as “playing a game” – how does it differ from the above paragraph?

    The final substance of both seems to me the same (they both seem to essentially say “I don’t know, and in the last analysis it’s God’s job to give the verdict”).

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  4. Merry Christmas to all….
    What Dee wrote, w/r to her response is consistent with her approach here at TWW…. and in my opinion, so much of how Christ reacted to “situations”…. ( note, I am refraining from quoting specific passages that could start the thread down a rabbit hole)..

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  6. While I disagreed with Carter’s POLITICAL views and policies on many issues, I have to look at his life and say, “He walked the walk.”
    From teaching SS in a (relatively) obscure Baptist church to building homes for Habitat to his racial “enlightenment”, he has lived out the life Jesus calls us to lead, IMO.
    Has he done it perfectly? Have I? Have you?
    We must ALL stand before Him, as those who claimed His Name, and give an account.
    My concern isn’t with the heart of Jimmy Carter or Al Mohler; my concern is the heart of PapaB and have I been consistent in letting the Holy Spirit work in and on ME!

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  7. “I am interested in hearing pushback about what I am saying.”

    I believe that this statement welcoming pushback, typical for this blog, is transformative.
    It is rare and even radical in theological contexts—sad to say, because openness to skepticism should be a normal part of inquiry in our personal, spiritual, and social lives.

    Merry Christmas!!!

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  8. When I hear someone declare angrily to another person, “You’re going to hell!” I always chuckle a bit, simply b/c I am pretty sure God will not be consulting with the angry person over the matter.

    1 Cor 13 “if I have not love…” comes to my mind as well. There are a lot of clanging gongs out there.

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  11. Look, I’m not God, that kind of decisionmaking is not left up to me. However, as far as I can tell, Jimmy Carter’s walked the walk and talked the talk.

    One thing the Carter Center is working on is the eradication of Guinea worms. They’re close, there were only 13 provisional cases last year, down from 3.5 million in 1986. I’ve been saying for years that Jimmy Carter is hanging on to see Guinea worm eradicated in his lifetime.

    Like I said, I’m not the ultimate judge, but Jimmy Carter’s walked the walk and talked the talk.

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  13. Doncha know Judging Someone’s Salvation is really simple”
    “ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT!!!”

    Yet another example of Christianese One-Upmanship, exalting self by tearing the other down.

    I vaguely remember a comment thread (might have been here, might not) where someone claimed to have Private Revelation of who was REALLY Saved and who WASN’T (see above) and used to crash funerals to Prophesy how the guest of honor WASN’T. All Commanded and Led by God, of course. As the classic Interent Monk essay put it, “I’m Weary of Weird Christians.”

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  14. Heck, a lot of us have wondered over the years if Al Mohler is born again! He claims to be among the “elect”, but did Jesus elect him there?

    Mohler’s “Christian” legacy will be measured by jots and tittles of the law and his takeover of the SBC in Calvin’s name. Jimmy Carter’s “ministry” Habitat for Humanity built, renovated, or repaired more than 800,000 homes since 1976. While Mohler was talking the bones off a chicken with his theology, Carter was swinging a hammer to provide shelter for the desperate.

    “Whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.” (1 John 3:17-18)

    Some will say it was a different calling … I will say “Were they called at all?” Only God knows … all we can do is look at the fruit of their lives.

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  17. “So I’ve had some personal engagements with the former president. He has mentioned me in four books. Negatively. … He’s not a fan of the conservative resurgence in the SBC.”

    Remember folks, in Mohler’s world, “Conservative” is code for “Calvinism”. Make no mistake about it, SBC’s “Conservative Resurgence” was really a “Calvinist Resurgence.”

    “he fought at Southern Seminary to rid the school of its “liberal” faculty”

    While you could make an argument about “conservative” vs. “liberal” ideology in SBC, Mr. Mohler was really purging Southern Seminary of non-Calvinist faculty with a desire to return SBC seminaries back to the Founders’ theology (= Calvinism), although SBC was distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years following the Civil War. He has largely accomplished that mission.

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  23. Mohler – known for “purifying” the church.

    Carter – known for purifying water.

    “The Guinea Worm Eradication Program is wiping out this ancient disease mainly through community-based interventions to educate and change behavior, such as teaching people to filter all drinking water and preventing transmission by keeping anyone with an emerging worm from entering water sources.” https://www.cartercenter.org/health/guinea_worm/index.html

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  25. Chris Webster: Mohler – known for “purifying” the church.

    Carter – known for purifying water.

    Humanitarian aid projects and Human Rights (including for women) are what our former President is known for (clarifying: US not SBC). “What you have done for the least of these, you have done for Me.” – Jesus

    What have church leaders done for the least of these? For Jesus? How about when they eliminate their longtime faithful senior church members over some newfangled church “discipline”? Was that this church leader et al? And, gaslighting those violated by clergy, while giving the predators a pass, with even more power and access for the pedos and perverts embedded as clergy? This guy et al? Al et al?

    Those who care about the dignity, safety, and access for women in churches, can follow the Blake Lively lawsuit against her co-star Justin Baldoni.

    Lively had to insist on 30 protective measures for herself while filming, co-starring, with Baldoni. During filming, he added improv inappropriate (no clothes, gross intimacy) scenes NOT in the original script which Lively had been hired to perform. When hired she had agreed to NONE of this. Baldoni attempted and took many gross liberties on and off set.

    Lively didn’t cave.

    Then Baldoni hired an expert in smearing to “bury” Lively. The “crisis manager”, a woman named Melissa Nathan, in texts, joked about having Lively ended, terminated, period. Not her role, but her life. Ending her life.

    It seems Lively did the right thing to protect herself.

    Just like in churches, first there was harassment. Then attempted assault. Liberties taken. Again, repeatedly, violations, and more attempted. Then image control for the predator. Smearing and gaslighting for the victim. Finally, threats on her life.

    “The Guardian” is covering this lawsuit with the filming backstory.

    Women of God in churches. Don’t cave. Escape, expose, enlighten. There are church men, including some clergy, who rewrite the script, do grossly inappropriate violations, then gaslight, smear, and threaten.

    Protect yourself and loved ones, in churches.

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  26. Jimmy Carter: There were no scandals in his personal life. He thought, and wrote, and, likely, truly
    related to Rosalyn as an equal partner. I loved his book, “A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power.”

    I have often thought, and said to a few others, more than once, that I would love to have been in Jimmy Carter’s (or Rosayln’s) Sunday school class.

    Ava Aaronson: Women of God in churches. Don’t cave. Escape, expose, enlighten. There are church men, including some clergy, who rewrite the script, do grossly inappropriate violations, then gaslight, smear, and threaten.
    Protect yourself and loved ones, in churches.

    Indeed, both in and out of churches! Find good support, hard to come by, I would imagine, for the majority of survivor/victims. Find support that is willing and able to provide context on the dynamics at play in entitlement and subjugation.

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  27. Carter was the first president I ever voted for. I was impressed by his strong Christian commitment even on the few times I didn’t agree with him. If someone publicly acknowledges Christ as Savior and Lord and their life lives up to Scriptural expectations, what more do we say? The Southern Baptists are quick to defend the adulterous women and child molesters in their midst and they take potshots at a man who has sustained a lifelong marriage, ministered humbly in the same church for decades, forged peace treaties with Middle Eastern leaders, observed elections in some very dangerous places, has almost cured Guinea worm in Africa, and is responsible for the building of thousands of homes around the world? We should be honored that he is still with us.

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  34. Same podcaster, interviewing Matt Schmucker. Laughs and laughs that “9Marks was invented by a pagan”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5Q8ym-rhQ

    They reveal at 21m45s that the church’s ‘generous neighbor’ [Chris Vizas] was also Schmucker’s employer.

    Schmucker: “He was very intrigued with what was happening at the church”.
    …..

    Schmucker: “So, pretty soon after I started working for him, he said, you know, why don’t you start an organization?”
    …..

    Schmucker: “At the end of the first year of working for him, he was saying, he was pitching me a couple projects that I could work on. And I said, what about that organization where we try to help revitalize churches? He said, you wanna do that?”

    Interviewer: “So this is the unbeliever who suggested this?”

    Schmucker” “Yeah. And I said, I think so. I said I’d have to talk to Mark about it, you know, this is, you know, this is something new. He said, well talk to Mark, I’ll give you $100,000 a year for the first three years, see if you can get it off the ground”.

    Interviewer: “SO 9MARKS WAS INVENTED BY A PAGAN!”

    [laughter]

    Schmucker: “YES”.

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  35. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5Q8ym-rhQ

    24m20s

    Schmucker: “[Mark and I] loved each other, we were Elders together, but it was hard. I, when I went to bed at night, it was, I put my head down against his Calvin section, in his study. I mean, we were we were in each other’s hip pockets, and it was intense, and it was seven days a week”.
    …..

    Interviewer: “Okay, so the year is 1998, and 9Marks, aka the Center for Church Reform…”

    Schmucker: “That [name] was the donor’s idea…it caused two problems: 1. Some people thought of it as, like, we’re trying to convince people to be Reformed…and I was like, no, that’s not actually what we’re trying to do”.

    Interviewer: “Although we are.” [chuckles]

    Schmucker: “True”.

    Schmucker: “2. It implied change…but churches don’t like to change…so after working on it for about three years I said…let’s just change it to 9Marks, and we did”.

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  37. Jerome: we try to help revitalize churches

    “Revitalize” is a word tossed around in SBC these days that it implies “We are here to help you” … but, what it really means is “We are here to Calvinize you”

    “Do not be deceived by the way men of bad faith misuse words and names … Things are set up as contraries that are not even in the same category. Listen to me: the opposite of radical is superficial, the opposite of liberal is stingy; the opposite of conservative is destructive. Thus I will describe myself as a radical conservative liberal; but certain of the tainted red fish will swear that there can be no such fish as that. Beware of those who use words to mean their opposites. At the same time have pity on them, for usually this trick is their only stock in trade.” (R.A. Lafferty)

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  38. As president, Jimmy Carter would often voice correct policy, but then contradict himself though signing legislation or judicial appointments. His presidency was a disaster. Did he actual seek God’s counsel and then follow it? Since leaving office, he has taken some unbiblical positions on many issues, such as women in leadership and LGBTQ rights, so there is reason to doubt his conversion. And building homes for the poor, while an honorable act, cannot save his soul. Hopefully, his Christianity isn’t just on the outside. I could hope the same for Al Mohler as well.

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  39. A common trait amongst Zealots is that more often than not the end justifies the means. So look out!
    If you don’t embrace their views you’re in one way or another dismissed as not the real deal, or wink wink, demonised.
    And if you do happen to be a tribesman or newly “signed up”, all past & present indiscretions are justified, rationalised, or overlooked.

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  42. David:
    As president, Jimmy Carter would often voice correct policy, but then contradict himself though signing legislation or judicial appointments. His presidency was a disaster. Did he actual seek God’s counsel and then follow it? Since leaving office, he has taken some unbiblical positions on many issues, such as women in leadership and LGBTQ rights, so there is reason to doubt his conversion. And building homes for the poor, while an honorable act, cannot save his soul. Hopefully, his Christianity isn’t just on the outside. I could hope the same for Al Mohler as well.

    Yes, none of the prominent posters here pay any attention to Romans 4:5, 5:8, and 11:6, Ephesians 2:8,9, or Titus 3:5. They miss the operative words “should” or “might” in Ephesians 2:10 and Titus 3:8. Matthew 24 and 25 are about Israel in the tribulation (Daniel’s 70th week – see Daniel 9:24-27), and many take Matthew 25:40 out of context. The gospel by which you are saved is I Corinthians 15:1-4 (see also Romans 4:24, 25 and II Corinthians 5:21), and Ephesians 1:13 explains how to appropriate the benefits of the gospel to yourself. Yes, Jimmy Carter has done many good works, and sometimes I think the world would have been a better place had he won re-election (and I was a fervent 16 year old Reagan supporter at the time) because we might have been spared the financialization of the economy, income inequality, massive government debt, and neo-con warmongering that followed. I hope he is saved and respect his good works, but those good works don’t save him and don’t prove he is saved. I also agree that Calvinists like Al Mohler and Heath Lambert have caused great harm.

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  43. David,

    “he has taken some unbiblical positions on many issues, such as women in leadership and LGBTQ rights, so there is reason to doubt his conversion. And building homes for the poor, while an honorable act, cannot save his soul.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    so, let me get this straight. salvation through discriminating against women and human beings with a sexuality different from yours.

    ‘by checking all the right boxes ye have been saved’

    you must be joking.

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  44. Troy: I hope he is saved and respect his good works, but those good works don’t save him and don’t prove he is saved.

    I know a lot of Christians don’t want to hear this but I do like to bring up the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-45). It’s worth a read. PS this whole discussion is about who is judge. The answer is: Not Me, and also Not You.

    Have a Merry Christmas, everyone!

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  46. David: Since leaving office, he has taken some unbiblical positions on many issues, such as women in leadership and LGBTQ rights, so there is reason to doubt his conversion. And building homes for the poor, while an honorable act, cannot save his soul.

    Yes and I’ll bet he takes 11 items in the 10 item or less checkout at the grocery store. Jesus would never do that!

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  48. Troy: Yes, none of the prominent posters here pay any attention to Romans 4:5, 5:8, and 11:6, Ephesians 2:8,9, or Titus 3:5.They miss the operative words “should” or “might” in Ephesians 2:10 and Titus 3:8. Matthew 24 and 25 are about Israel in the tribulation (Daniel’s 70th week – see Daniel 9:24-27), and many take Matthew 25:40 out of context. The gospel by which you are saved is I Corinthians 15:1-4 (see also Romans 4:24, 25 and II Corinthians 5:21), and Ephesians 1:13 explains how to appropriate the benefits of the gospel to yourself.Yes, Jimmy Carter has done many good works, and sometimes I think the world would have been a better place had he won re-election (and I was a fervent 16 year old Reagan supporter at the time) because we might have been spared the financialization of the economy, income inequality, massive government debt, and neo-con warmongering that followed. I hope he is saved and respect his good works, but those good works don’t save him and don’t prove he is saved. I also agree that Calvinists like Al Mohler and Heath Lambert have caused great harm.

    Carter was the fourth president in a row to enable bad economic policy. Inflation, stagflation, mounting deficits and wage stagnation have origins in the policies of LBJ, Nixon, Ford and Carter. The Reagan years reversed this temporarily. The Neo-cons were enabled by Clinton’s indifference to rising terrorism and 9-11, but that movement has diminished with the most recent election.

    Carter’s increasing embrace of theological liberalism over the years is nothing short of rebellion against God and his word, and it leads one to question his salvation. Every source you can find his reasoning sounds like he is elevating his opinion above clear scripture. I hope he is a genuine believer, regardless of his errors.

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  49. Troy: those good works don’t save him and don’t prove he is saved.

    I used to think like that. In the last 15 years, I have explored the ugliness of the evangelical movement, a movement that I have been an ardent participant in. I agree that works don’t save. It is only Jesus who does that.
    However, we should live out our faith in our works. I have met far too many Christians who spend their time going to Bible studies, theology seminars, and infernal conferences. And ignore the pain and suffering of those around them. Good works can point to a deep and vibrant faith.

    The early Christians were known for their good works. I’m not so sure we are known for that in the same way today.

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  50. David: Did he actual seek God’s counsel and then follow it?

    Uh oh. So, a real faith in God is exhibited by making “correct policy decisions in the political arena?” I have met many Christians who have made disastrous business decisions, yet those decisions do not mean that they are not Christians.

    And what are the “correct decisions” about the role of women in the church? You do know that many Christians labor long and hard on that point. Also, this may be challenging, but there are some Christians who may take a more liberal view on the role of women in the church and could still be considered Christians.

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  53. elastigirl:
    David,

    “he has taken some unbiblical positions on many issues, such as women in leadership and LGBTQ rights, so there is reason to doubt his conversion. And building homes for the poor, while an honorable act, cannot save his soul.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    so, let me get this straight.salvation through discriminating against women and human beings with a sexuality different from yours.

    ‘by checking all the right boxes ye have been saved’

    you must be joking.

    Nonsense.

    Per scripture, women are not allowed to be in spiritual authority over men, which precludes them from being pastors or elders. See I Timothy 2:11-14. God chose men, not women, to have teaching authority. Has nothing to do with “discrimination.”

    Scripture also very clearly states that homosexuality is a sin – Genesis 19:1–13, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10. Those who embrace it and accept it as normal are in rebellion.

    We can have opinions to the contrary, but they are just that, opinions.

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  54. dee: Uh oh. So, a real faith in God is exhibited by making “correct policy decisions in the political arena?” I have met many Christians who have made disastrous business decisions, yet those decisions do not mean that they are not Christians.

    And what are the “correct decisions” about the role of women in the church? You do know that many Christians labor long and hard on that point. Also, this may be challenging, but there are some Christians who may take a more liberal view on the role of women in the church and could still be considered Christians.

    Um, no.

    Some in this forum, perhaps inadvertently, cite Jimmy Carter’s good works as evidence of his salvation (eradication of guinea worms, Habitat for Humanity). But rebellion against clear scripture teaching prompts one to question his salvation.

    I hope he is saved. I really do.

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  55. David,

    David.

    David, David….

    it comes down to difference in interpretation of the text.

    all you have is your opinion on the matter.

    same with me.

    it’s all anyone has. humility requires that we accept that, and the possibility that we are wrong.

    you can call your position on women and people with sexuality different from your own scriptural, and be content with that.

    but make no mistake- your beliefs are the quintessential definition of discrimination, and the stinging, degrading, dehumanizing experience of it.

    for others. not you.

    do you have the powers of imagination to consider what that might be like for those on the receiving end of your biblical?

    if you’re going to embrace a set of beliefs that causes pain to others, at the very least seek to understand what it’s like for those at ground zero where the consequences of it land hard.

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  57. David: Per scripture, women are not allowed to be in spiritual authority over men, which precludes them from being pastors or elders. See I Timothy 2:11-14. God chose men, not women, to have teaching authority. Has nothing to do with “discrimination.”

    Yes, elastigirl should have her head shaved by a talking wombat.

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  68. elastigirl:
    David,

    David.

    David, David….

    it comes down to difference in interpretation of the text.

    all you have is your opinion on the matter.

    same with me.

    it’s all anyone has.humility requires that we accept that, and the possibility that we are wrong.

    you can call your position on women and people with sexuality different from your own scriptural, and be content with that.

    but make no mistake- your beliefs are the quintessential definition of discrimination, and the stinging, degrading, dehumanizing experience of it.

    for others.not you.

    do you have the powers of imagination to consider what that might be like for those on the receiving end of your biblical?

    if you’re going to embrace a set of beliefs that causes pain to others, at the very least seek to understand what it’s like for those at ground zero where the consequences of it land hard.

    What is Scripture? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    What does God really mean? Multiple interpretations which are diametrically opposed to each other is problematic. Yet we have theological debates over the process of salvation, ranging from the Calvinist lucky list to Armininian mystery. Obviously, there are things the human mind cannot understand. Only God does. And debates over these issues are understandable.

    But when Scripture clearly names sins such as homosexuality and forbids women from leadership in the church, some take a rebellious stance in the name of tolerance and equality. While we have no right to hate someone engaging in homosexual sin or a female pastor/elder, scripture is actually clear on these issues. Pointing out one’s error is love, not hate. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17 above.

    I doubt anything I’ve written above can persuade you, yet I will end by wishing you a Merry Christmas!

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  74. Ella: Jimmy Carter: There were no scandals in his personal life. He thought, and wrote, and, likely, truly
    related to Rosalyn as an equal partner. I loved his book, “A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power.”

    Which to all these MenaGAWD is PROOF he wasn’t really Saved.
    “Me Sheep! Him Goat! HAW! HAW! HAW!”

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  76. David,

    David, Merry Christmas!
    I would suggest that you consider Deborah, Hulda, Phoebe, Junia, Joanna, et.al.
    Phoebe delivered the epistle from Paul to the Roman church. That ALSO meant she had to INSTRUCT the Romans about its content and answer their questions.
    Junia was said to be “of note among the apostles” (Romans 16:7) — feminine name; most scholars believe that the grammar indicates she was among those who witnessed the resurrection and was an important leader in the early church.

    Jesus was unique by having female disciples.

    So here’s the conundrum: either Paul was schizophrenic (he can’t write that women shouldn’t teach men then send a woman to teach his letter to the Roman church), OR, it’s much more complex than a mere surface reading can reveal.

    I get it, I was in the complementarian camp for the first 15 years of being a Christian. But these “issues” bothered me and I had to pursue them to see if Scripture really was “theopnuestos” (God-breathed) or a human-produced mess of confusion and contradiction.

    I hope that you keep seeking Truth and a deeper understanding of God. That has driven me for over 40 years; and I have barely scratched the surface of the surface. But the quest is truly life-giving.

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  77. David: Um, no.

    Some in this forum, perhaps inadvertently, cite Jimmy Carter’s good works as evidence of his salvation (eradication of guinea worms, Habitat for Humanity). But rebellion against clear scripture teaching prompts one to question his salvation.

    I hope he is saved. I really do.

    So, I’m going to ask you, do you believe it’s biblical to own human beings? You know, chattel slavery? A whole area of the United States held this as a strong Biblical belief prior to the end of the US Civil War and they had the cherry-picked verses to back it up. The 13th Amendment of the Constitution generally prohibits slavery (with the grim exception of imprisoned people). To many Southerners across generations, they believed that not being able to own people was a violation of their religious freedom.

    But it is the law of this land that NO, you cannot own slaves, and so, no, there’s no discussion (as Paul did in Philemon) about what to do with Onesimus. It’s against the law of the land.

    Do tell us, david, if you think the US Constitution can overrule the long-held belief, which was supported by nobody less than Paul who sent back a slave to his “owner”, that chattel slavery is not just OK but can be the backbone of society and economics? Do tell us.

    To everyone else, sorry to bring this up on Christmas, but when someone starts going off on “not following scripture,” I have to bring up that we Americans are not allowed to own other people, which was considered a scriptural practice until the end of the Civil War.

    Oh yeah, david, I’m a woman, so if you want to condemn me for that, fine. *shrug* I’ll follow Jesus, not a bunch of cherry-picked verses ripped out of context and time.

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  78. Troy: such as women in leadership and LGBTQ rights

    This is abusive theology 101.
    This is bibliolatry.

    Better get used to the repeal of slavery and women in leadership.

    Must you really oppose the human rights of LGBTQ people? I get calling it a sin, from your point of view. But —rights??

    And let’s remember that scholars now conclude that the Timothy letters are forgeries (Ehrman et al.) The forgers didn’t like women, but Paul did. I get that you really want God to have written those too. The forgers were not God and, news flash, neither was Paul.

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  79. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: have to bring up that we Americans are not allowed to own other people, which was considered a scriptural practice until the end of the Civil War.

    And some (like the Jerk with his Kirk in Moscow ID) never did get the news.

    Funny how what God Commandeth is always to the personal advantage and personal benefit of those who Quoteth those Commands.

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  83. Years ago I was in charge of a mental health clinic inside a juvenile institution for those who had three felonies. One young man with serious charges was ordered by the juvenile judge to complete family therapy before he could be released. When the mother arrived for the first session, she was very hostile towards me, and she was so negative I had to stop the session for her to process her feelings.

    “I am Muslim and you are Christian?” I replied that I sought to be worthy of being called a Christian. “Then my son will not be treated fairly by you” and I asked her why she felt that way. She replied with a question, “Are you one of these American Christians who believe that only Christians will be in heaven?” I answered, “I am one of these American Christians who will leave it to God to decide who will be in heaven.” She smiled and the tension eased.

    The day her son was released, she gave me a gift that I treasure to this day, a copy of the Qur’an and her words, “Thank you for respecting my faith and my person.”

    Why don’t we stop worrying about who we think will and will not make it to heaven, offer grace and respect to all, and let God be God . . . instead of us.

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  84. Luckyforward: Why don’t we stop worrying about who we think will and will not make it to heaven, offer grace and respect to all, and let God be God . . . instead of us.

    The Arrogance of the Godly who KNOW they’re Godly (and we’re NOT):
    “But without US, God might do the wrong thing!
    WE are the Ones Who KNOW What’s REALLY Going On!”

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  85. so, let me get this straight. salvation through discriminating against women
    elastigirl,

    Yep. Women are property – not citizens of God’s kingdom.

    These men believe that the Roman laws and household codes that Aristotle wrote on in “Politics”, predating Jesus’ birth by over 300 years is “gospel”……. and, written works of a pagan philosopher, and laws and codes enforced on women by a pagan society is “God’s commands”.

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  87. David,

    Could I persuade you to protest against our elementary school science classes?
    Surely their teachings about the solar System are wrong. Everything revolves around the earth.

    “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.“
    Josh.10:13

    And if you simply read Genesis 1, you’ll find that 24 hour days existed before God created the sun, the moon, etc., since God did not create them until the 4th day.

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  88. Believer: Mohler has already received what he most desires. He was acknowledged as some kind of “authority” on the issue

    Oh yeah, Dr. Al likes the limelight. He knows everything about everything … he’s always right. His theology is the ONLY correct theology, the one true gospel – all other expressions of faith are false.

    I was young and now am old … I’ve learned along the way that everyone who speaks with authority is not always an authority.

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  89. Max,

    Al Mohler: microphones, cameras, silk ties, chauffeurs, velvet stanchions…. 40 years of living in an ivory tower while raking in cash off tithes, donations, and other people’s work.

    Jimmy Carter: hammer, nails, crowbars, drills, blisters…… 35 years volunteering as a manual labor for Habitat for Humanity.

    Hmmmmm…. WWJD?

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  92. For Mohler to say that he would “hope and pray” that President Carter is a Christian, goes against his theology. Reformed (Calvinist) theology teaches that God has already “predestined” those who will be saved (“the elect”) and those who won’t be saved. And that number is fixed and unchangeable.

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  96. david: Carter’s increasing embrace of theological liberalism over the years is nothing short of rebellion against God

    David: But rebellion against clear scripture teaching prompts one to question his salvation.

    Rebellion against God…oh how some people love to use that phrase. As soon as it’s brought into the conversation, we’re all suppose to gasp and quickly back away from said rebellious person. It’s usually uttered with great conviction, as if that should be the end of all debate. It’s employed mostly for shock value and dramatic effect, but really has just been used too often where it doesn’t actually apply.

    If Jimmy Carter had been female, he probably would’ve been called a Daughter of Stan, but since he’s male, we’ll have to settle for “rebellious.” (eye roll)

    Merry Christmas to my peeps here at TWW. I’m thankful for Dee and her labor of love that gives a voice to the voiceless.

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  97. Mark R:
    For Mohler to say that he would “hope and pray” that President Carter is a Christian, goes against his theology.Reformed (Calvinist) theology teaches that God has already “predestined” those who will be saved (“the elect”) and those who won’t be saved.And that number is fixed and unchangeable.

    Yes, it does. Excellent point.

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  98. Mark R: For Mohler to say that he would “hope and pray” that President Carter is a Christian, goes against his theology.

    Mohler has been wishy-washy on other theological issues. At one time, he was not opposed to women pastors. He most likely jumped on the complementarian bandwagon when he saw it was his best route to power in the SBC when the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence rode into town.

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  99. Ariel: Rebellion against God…oh how some people love to use that phrase.

    “If you question what I Say or Do
    YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
    — Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”

    All this teaches is that God is an Abusive Monster, and if you’re one of His special Pets (“Predestined Elect” in Calvinese) you can get away with anything and everything.

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  100. Ariel: Rebellion against God…oh how some people love to use that phrase. As soon as it’s brought into the conversation, we’re all suppose to gasp and quickly back away from said rebellious person. It’s usually uttered with great conviction, as if that should be the end of all debate. It’s employed mostly for shock value and dramatic effect, but really has just been used too often where it doesn’t actually apply.

    Good comment!

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  101. Mark R:
    For Mohler to say that he would “hope and pray” that President Carter is a Christian, goes against his theology.Reformed (Calvinist) theology teaches that God has already “predestined” those who will be saved (“the elect”) and those who won’t be saved.And that number is fixed and unchangeable.

    It’s always good to try to understand what other people who disagree with you think. Calvin himself answered this question.

    From the point of view of God’s exhaustive foreknowledge of all things in the future, the number of those who are saved is also fixed and unchangeable. When you look at any particular person, it is already known by God whether that person will be finally saved. But I expect that you’d say that “but I should still pray for them because *I* don’t know; I am not God – and moreover, my prayers may play a part in their salvation”. Calvin, and Calvinists, have essentially the same view in this matter. God’s eternal predestination isn’t independent of means during time, but rather establishes the use of means. We’re not God, and we don’t know. So we pray.

    You may believe that answer isn’t satisfying. But Calvinists disagree, and do find it satisfying, and so they pray, whether non-Calvinists think they shouldn’t, or not.

    As I say, it’s good to try to understand eachother. I personally wonder why people who believe that human freewill is an absolute pray to God to ask God to violate unbelievers’ free will by bringing them to Christ. Why pray “Lord, please make my aunt a Christian” if you think that free-will is the highest of human goods? But I understand too, that you have an answer to that question that you find intellectually satisfying, and thus you still pray it. And as I say, that’s a good thing. We’ll not all think alike during this life, but to help us with that, the Bible teaches us about forebearance.

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  103. Mark R: For Mohler to say that he would “hope and pray” that President Carter is a Christian, goes against his theology.

    Could it be that Mr. Mohler is hoping and praying that President Carter is a closet Calvinist … one of the predestined elect … instead of a whosoever-will-may-come, born-again, bought-by-the-blood of Jesus, Christian?

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  105. David Anderson: … the number of those who are saved is also fixed and unchangeable. When you look at any particular person, it is already known by God whether that person will be finally saved. But I expect that you’d say that “but I should still pray for them because *I* don’t know …”

    “If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect, I would go around lifting shirts. But since He didn’t, I must preach “whosoever will” and when “whosoever” believes I know that he is one of the elect” (Charles Spurgeon)

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  106. First off, I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in predestination in the Calvinistic sense, i.e., I believe every person has the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. I am also not a Southern Baptist, although I do believe in the security of the believer, and thus do not believe it is possible to be “un-born again” once one is born again. I say this not to stir any controversy, but merely to position myself on the spectrum, so to speak.

    As for whether a given person, Jimmy Carter or anyone else, is born again, if I have heard that person confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is their personal savior, then I would believe that they are in fact born again. That is the only Biblical criteria, in my personal opinion. The number of houses you build or Sunday School classes you teach have no influence whatsoever on your personal salvation, which is by grace through faith alone. If you are not born again, all those works may affect your life here on earth, but they will not keep you out of the Lake of Fire on Judgement Day. If otoh you *are* born again, you will be rewarded for those good works when you stand before our Savior.

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  107. David: Jimmy Carter…has taken some unbiblical positions on many issues, such as women in leadership…so there is reason to doubt his conversion.

    Problem for you and Mohler is that a number of men with whom Mohler yoked up with on The Council of The Gospel Coalition, have women pastors at their churches.

    Are these TGC guys’ conversions to be doubted per your edict, David?

    Tom Nelson, has multiple women pastors at his church
    Sam Storms, retired, had two women pastors at his church
    David Short, has a woman pastor at his church
    John Yates, retired, had women pastors at his church

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  108. David Anderson:

    From the point of view of God’s exhaustive foreknowledge of all things in the future, the number of those who are saved is also fixed and unchangeable. When you look at any particular person, it is already known by God whether that person will be finally saved.

    “Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.” – Westminster Confession Of Faith.

    According to the Reformed tradition God didn’t save anyone based on His foreknowledge.

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  109. Jerome: a number of men with whom Mohler yoked up with on The Council of The Gospel Coalition, have women pastors at their churches

    Mohler had no problem with female pastors until SBC’s Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence demanded that they couldn’t hold that office. Indeed, Mr. Mohler openly confessed his support of women in ministry in an ad in the Louisville Courier-Journal in 1984!

    “We affirm equal participation of women and men in the life and work of the church” (Al Mohler et al.)

    https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-courier-journal-mohler-ad-in-support/142309476/

    Beware of those who speaketh out of both sides of their mouth.

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  110. Putting on my Christian hat (and I wore one for a number of years), the known is that god will prevail in the end.

    There may predestination in this respect but we have the choice to believe or not. We also have the choice of how we believe, or not.

    For me, there are many roads to the truth. I believe that this encompasses all religions. I don’t have answers and neither does anyone else but this is in John

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

    What that means is between Jesus and the believers and no one on this planet has the right to define Jesus’ road through him.

    Certainly not Mr. Mohler (nor Mr Canine or Mr Bicuspid)

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  111. Curiously, many in the Wesleyan Holiness camp would also say that from God’s perspective the number that will finally be saved is already fixed. They teach we are elect according to foreknowledge so from the very beginning God already knew who would accept Christ and who would reject Him. Not predestined to accept or reject, just God has that foreknowledge. And since God chooses to use means, we pray and teach and preach and witness, etc.

    Predestination for that camp is this: those who accept Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. No more, no less.

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  112. Jack: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

    What that means is between Jesus and the believers and no one on this planet has the right to define Jesus’ road through him.

    Exactly. Not through Mohler’s theology. Not through My theology. Only through Jesus.

    Theology is too overrated … it’s darn near displaced Truth in much of Christendom.

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  118. linda: Predestination for that camp is this: those who accept Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. No more, no less.

    Indeed … and “chosen” to be holy and blameless in His sight.

    New Calvinism needs a flood of genuine born-again flowing through their ranks, so they would rightly divide the word of truth. Without the Holy Spirit, they are left with their own interpretation … they don’t have eyes to see and ears to hear.

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  120. Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
    David Anderson,

    Ah, yes….. like the charity that Mohler showed towards Carter?

    A Christian Charity which reminds me of a very old Jerry Collins one-panel cartoon that never made it online. If done today it would be called a Meme:

    Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler in full-dress regalia with a thought balloon saying
    “It is hard to be so Good and Just.”

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  121. Max: “I’ve had some personal engagements with the former president. He has mentioned me in four books. Negatively.”

    He just said what millions of us were thinking, Al.

    And makes Mohler’s “Me Sheep! Him Goat! Haw! Haw! Haw!” nothing more than an act of petty revenge.

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  122. Max: Could it be that Mr. Mohler is hoping and praying that President Carter is a closet Calvinist … one of the predestined elect … instead of a whosoever-will-may-come, born-again, bought-by-the-blood of Jesus, Christian?
    Because outside of Calvin there can be no Salvation.

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  129. As Jay Nordlinger wrote in “Carterpalooza,” “No one quite realizes just how passionately anti-Israel Carter is. William Safire has reported that Cyrus Vance acknowledged that, if he had had a second term, Carter would have sold Israel down the river. In the 1990s, Carter became quite close to Yasser Arafat. After the Gulf War, Saudi Arabia was mad at Arafat, because the PLO chief had sided with Saddam Hussein. So Arafat asked Carter to fly to Riyadh to smooth things over with the princes and restore Saudi funding to him — which Carter did…In The Unfinished Presidency, [Douglas] Brinkley writes, ‘There was no world leader Jimmy Carter was more eager to know than Yasir Arafat.’”

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  130. Troy,

    I opened the door for discussing recent politics so I won’t disallow this. I look at this differently. One doesn’t know the transitions that go on in any person’s heart. Carter lived out his faith and observing him makes it easy for us to think of him as a Christian. What the past few Presidents believe deep down as opposed to expressed, I don’t really know. I have watched one too many folks walk away from the faith and quite a few who eased into the faith over decades.

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  133. I’ve only heard Trump say he was a fan of Norman Vincent Peale and that he was raised Presbyterian and felt good after taking communion. He has spent time around Paula White. In an interview shortly after the first assassination attempt, he seemed to say he wasn’t sure God existed until he survived the shooting. Yes, we can’t be sure about anyone. All we know is what they say and do. A now deceased pastor I respected once said he heard Bill Clinton give one of the best salvation testimonies he had ever heard.

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  134. senecagriggs:
    As Jay Nordlinger wrote in “Carterpalooza,” “No one quite realizes just how passionately anti-Israel Carter is. William Safire has reported that Cyrus Vance acknowledged that, if he had had a second term, Carter would have sold Israel down the river. In the 1990s, Carter became quite close to Yasser Arafat. After the Gulf War, Saudi Arabia was mad at Arafat, because the PLO chief had sided with Saddam Hussein. So Arafat asked Carter to fly to Riyadh to smooth things over with the princes and restore Saudi funding to him — which Carter did…In The Unfinished Presidency, [Douglas] Brinkley writes, ‘There was no world leader Jimmy Carter was more eager to know than Yasir Arafat.’”

    Based upon Romans chapters 9 through 11, Carter was right.

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  135. If the “conservative resurgence” in the SBC judges people’s salvation by what they think of the “conservative resurgence” in the SBC, I’m not so sure that what they’re doing has anything much at all to do with Jesus. Jimmy Carter could be severe – but he was always severest on himself, like something I remember reading somewhere about taking a log out of your own eye. Maybe Al Mohler knows who said that.

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  136. Mot,

    Well, I’m not Dee, but my guess is that Jesus is a registered republican, so there’s that one thing………

    Sarcasm on my part…… but Al Mohler did say this:
    “ Donald Trump is not the nominee I would have chosen. But Donald Trump is the nominee of the Republican Party.” And, Mohler says, he must support the nominee of the party he has identified with from youth.

    https://baptistnews.com/article/mohler-again-endorses-trump-for-president/

    (Just for the record, I am not a “party line” kinda person , myself. I vote for individual candidates, not for a particular political party.)

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  137. Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
    Mot,

    Well, I’m not Dee, but my guess is that Jesus is a registered republican, so there’s that one thing………

    Sarcasm on my part……but Al Mohler did say this:
    “Donald Trump is not the nominee I would have chosen. But Donald Trump is the nominee of the Republican Party.”And, Mohler says, he must support the nominee of the party he has identified with from youth.

    https://baptistnews.com/article/mohler-again-endorses-trump-for-president/

    (Just for the record, I am not a “party line” kinda person , myself.I vote for individual candidates, not for a particular political party.)

    I really do not expect an answer from Dee. Most christians seem afraid to say anything negative about him publicly. The Republicans could have nominated many others, but they did not. And yes i agree the only christian characteristic is that he is a republican. And yes I am being sarcastic. I fully expect the coming four years to be nightmarish as have been the last 9.

    BTW where I live he appears to more popular than Jesus

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  144. mot:
    Al waits till Carter dies to accuse him of unknown international crimes.What a donkey he is.

    A worthy criticism of Carter but applicable to every US President of the 20th and 21st centuries.

    Based on how they lived, I think it is more lively that Jimmy Carter is in Heaven that Ravi Zacharias.

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  145. Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Has anyone tallied up just how much time and energy gets spent on such “Who’s In and WHo’s NOT” bickering?
    Time and energy that could be used for something else?

    Though not from any theological textbook. All this finger pointing within the life of the church brings back memories of my school boy rugby coach who told our team in the dressing shed after a loss that we need shut our big mouths on and off the field and not tell each other how to play the game.
    “That’s my bloody job, NOT yours!” – He clearly and dramatically expressed.

    Aware that there are many situations and times that call for a prophetic voice.
    Nonetheless, out of the mouths of babes

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  148. I think it’s appropriate to have some discussion about negative parts of a person’s legacy. It should also be done in an appropriate way. Al Mohler just takes a crap on Carter, though. And I don’t really care much for theological purism. Think about how many things (divorce, transubstantiation, women’s rights) that Christians from history would cause them to look at us and say “how can they be Christian and believe this?”

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  149. Observant Outsider: And I don’t really care much for theological purism. Think about how many things (divorce, transubstantiation, women’s rights) that Christians from history would cause them to look at us and say “how can they be Christian and believe this?”

    Excellent comment. One person commented implied Carter was not a Christian if he believed women could be pastors. Last I checked, it is believing that Jesus is one’s Savior and God who determines who is in the Book of Life. It takes hubris to think one can decide another’s salvation status based on whether or not they believe that current Israel is a fulfillment of God’s promise to return the land of Israel to the Jews or if they believe that women can be elders or not. There will be many surprises in heaven, and I think those who have a long list of what one must believe to be saved will be the most surprised.

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  150. Observant Outsider: Al Mohler just takes a crap on Carter, though. And I don’t really care much for theological purism.

    Southern Baptist leaders of the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence were not too fond of President Carter when he expressed support of the Conservative Baptist Fellowship. CBF was formed in the early 1990s by ex-SBC churches which split from SBC over theological differences, particularly the hardline stand by fundamentalists opposing women in ministry and the overall trend toward Calvinism in an historically non-Calvinist denomination. Carter was a whosoever-will-may-come Christian – Mohler is not.

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  158. Love per 1Cor 13:6 is love when it abides in truth.

    God is our Creator who created humankind, male and female in His image. Gen 1:27

    God sanctified marriage for procreation to be between a man and a woman. Gen 1:28

    These are the two Genesis passages are teo of the most pertinent and important truths about God and humankind. One that He delights in sanctifying humanity as his most precious of creations because we are His image bearers. The second is marriage between the man and female alone…and per Ephesians 5 as the premiere representation of Jesus the groom and His union with His bride, the church.

    I have heard many comments about how judging a person for political positions is wrong. I disagree. Politics is a platform where a person’s attitudes and actions including words which are a window to the soul are rightly understood. Carter’s politics supported not only the murder of God’s image bearers in the abortion of the unborn, but also thrashing of the sanctity of human marriage per God’s Holy Word. And to top it off, it seems that Carter did not abide by a gospel of salvation from such heinous sins against God and His character, but rather a type of social gospel whereby governments save us unto forms of anti-racism and tolerance of lifestyles not acceptable in God’s sight.

    For this, Al Mohler is absolutely justified to question Carter’s salvation along with prayerful hope that repentance preceded Carter’s death so he found salvation and eternity with Jesus in heaven.

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  159. Greg: Al Mohler is absolutely justified to question Carter’s salvation a

    I keep forgetting, Al Mohler is allowed to play the part of the Almighty. I disagree with this. I believe you can say some actions, in your opinion, are wrong, but judging salvation is the purview of our Father and I rest in His perfect will. Humans, along with Mohler, are hardly perfect.

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  162. With regard to your penultimate line we are in fact not required to assure (or not assure) anyone about another’s salvation, even if our name is Rev Mohler. It’s more legit to “damn” someone with faint praise if we want.

    Salvation is a big thing as you were almost beginning by pointing out?

    Large numbers of churchgoers not receiving the whole truth about Holy Spirit gifts and fruits (from non-politicians) over prolonged periods risks creating successive generations of stillborn again during their lifetimes.

    Were the Carter family and administration undiscerningly involved with Jim Jones?

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