We are only about 2 weeks away from “Cross Con 2025” – an annual cash-cow for those fortunate enough to be members of the Evangelical Industrial Complex Conference Speakers Circuit. Cross Con speakers consist of mainly Baptist luminaires of the Calvinist and Complimentarian persuasion. Those who pony up the $149 entrance fee to attend Cross Con are mainly college students in the 18-25 year-old range. In addition to the entry fee conference attendees will shell out money for meals, hotel rooms, and books. (47,000 books were purchased at the 2024 event.) What attracts 10,000 college students to this event? My guess is it’s part devotion to Christ, part attraction to a gathering of like-minded people, and part a desire to jump-start your Christian walk – not unlike when your church youth group attended a Bible camp and returned from the week-long event all “on fire for the Lord.”
Unfortunately, I believe the speakers at the event use manipulative tactics to pressure attendees to “make their lives count.” What exactly is it that makes a life count? Listen to John Piper’s prayer at last year’s Cross Con:
I don’t understand Piper’s twisted appeal to God utilizing the Old Testament principle of tithing. It seems Piper desires one-tenth of the Cross Con audience to “completely give themselves to Christ” as evidenced by their becoming foreign missionaries. It may just be me – I frequently have trouble understanding Piper’s logic.
The short video below was taken from the same 2024 Cross Con session as Piper’s prayer above. The MC had asked Piper whether it’s OK for Christians to have ambitions. Piper, seeming a tad bit unhinged, passionately hollers how he wants everyone to embrace the five points of Calvinism. Alrighty then. I guess it’s OK to have ambitions, or, whatever. Maybe these charades appeal to college kids, I’m 66 so I can’t actually recall if I would have sat through that session. I hope I would have walked out of the auditorium, marched straight to the bookstore, and demanded a refund for any books authored by Piper that I might have purchased.
The screenshot below was taken from a T4G conference, but Platt has said the same thing at Cross Con. I used to have a video of him making a tearful appeal to Cross Con attendees to be willing to lay down their lives in a foreign country in obedience to Christ.
David Platt has made bank selling the whole “Radical” concept to anyone who will listen or buy his book.
Meanwhile, it appears Platt’s plea to live a life of hardship on the mission field is meant “for thee and not for me.” His appeal to the youth rings hollow when you become aware of the shenanigans he foisted upon the good members of Mclean Bible Church. That Platt remains a member of good standing on the Baptist conference speaker’s club, not to mention the pastor of MBC is further proof of the bankrupt morals of the Baptist Calvinistas. (See the video below.)
I thank God I got out of the hollow “Christianity” pushed by guys like Platt. Below is a video from several years ago; at the time this video was made David Platt’s book, “Radical” was all the rage. Out of this radical Christianity a backlash against the “Radical” message gained popularity.
I will end with this rather long quote from a Matt Redmond, an author and pastor I highly respect. His brand of Christianity resounds with me. May it grow.
As I look around the landscape of evangelicalism, the world I find myself in, the mundane escapes notice. The ordinary is given lip-service, but overlooked like the garnish on a steak dinner. What the evangelical church really wants is something as large as God Himself, whether personality or performance, workers or windfalls.
The call is to do something big. I’ve sat on the edge of my front-row seat and heard the call thundered from pulpits. And I’ve been the one thundering:
“Change the world,” I can hear myself crying out.
“Change your world. Change the world of someone. Anyone. Sell everything. Sell anything. Give it away. Do something crazy. Be radical. Make people stand up and notice. Take a risk. Jesus moved from heaven to earth and gave up his life and yet you — you just go about your daily life.”All too easily I can hear myself burdening the room with words, phrases, and ideas I’ve heard elsewhere:
“Your days should be blood-earnestly marked by an urgent, nerve-twisting love for people you have never known,” I might say. “And if you truly loved them you would join the missions team’s trip at the expense of your vacation to know them. If you loved God, you would do it. And if you really believed-BELIEVED, you would go and stay. You should want to go. It should be hard to stay where you are in the comfort of where you are.”My own voice, like a lance, slashes through the darkness in every soul before me:
“You worship,” I berate them. “And then what do you do? You rest. You huddle in your house with your spouse and kids. You eat. You drink. You make love. Go to your kid’s games. Go out with friends. You have clean sheets, clean stainless-steel refrigerators and clean water. You change nothing while millions die in poverty. Each week is a brick used to build the house of a wasted ordinary existence.”I’ve heard all of it flail in my own head and lash against my ribs, leaving sourness in my stomach no medicine can aid. Worse: similar words, if not these very ones, I turned into whips with which to waken the consciences of those sitting before me. It never felt right but it preached well.
No lie. I used to preach and teach like this. And if I didn’t use the exact words and draw the precise conclusions, I let the listener fill them in like some twisted religious Mad-Lib.
But then I began to ask questions. The inconvenient ones.
Really? Is this the normal Christian life?
Is God sitting around waiting for each and every believer to do something monumental?
Is this the warp and woof of the New Testament?
Are the lifestyles of the Apostles the standard for the persons in the pew?
Are the first-century believers the standard?
Is this our God?In the economy of God, do only the times when we are doing something life-changing have any spiritual cache with Him?
Does He look over the mundane work of the housewife only to see the missions trip she may go on?So, I wondered. I wondered about the great majority I have known and know. The great majority living fairly ordinary lives.
Is there a God, for instance, for those who are not changing anything but diapers? Is there a God for those who simply love their spouse and pour out rarely-appreciated affection on their children day after day? Is there a God for the mom who spends what feels like God-forsaken days changing diapers and slicing up hot dogs? Is there a God for the men who hammer out a day’s work in obscurity for the love of his wife and kids? Is there a God for just and kind employers? Generous homemakers? Day-laborers who would look at a missions trip to Romania like it was an unimaginable vacation? Is there a God for the middle-class mom staving off cancer, struggling to raise teenagers and simply hoping both Mom and Dad keep their job? Is there a God for the broken home with a full bank account but an empty bed? Is there a God for grown children tending to the health of their aged parents? Is there a God, who delights in the ordinary existence of the unknown faithful doing unknown work? Is there a God of grace for those who live out their faith everywhere but do not want to move anywhere? Is there a God for those who have bigger homes than me? More money than me? Nicer cars than me? Better health than me?
Is there a God for the mundane parts of life, the small moments? Is there a God of kind smiles, good tips and good mornings? Is there a God of goodbye hugs and parting kisses? What about firm, truthful handshakes and grasps of frail fingers in sanitized hospital rooms?Does God care about the forgotten mundane moments between the sensational, those never remembered? Or are those spiritually vacuous moments for which there is no God?
Is there a God of the mundane?
Does this God I worship care about mundane people and moments?
I’m not crazy. I know there are others asking the same question. But it felt like the lonely question we ask into the night sky where no one will answer. And when we can finally ask it, the comfort is not in the answer so much as wishing we could hear others asking the same question. If misery loves company, a company of wondering would have been nice.
But I kept looking into that night sky. It began looking less empty with all its stars and planets and blank blackness. And the question, hanging there, caught in the beauty of the firmament, yearned for an answer echoing throughout the constellatory.
“The God of the Mundane” by Matt Redmond
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And all tax-free to boot!
What a gig!
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Platt, Piper, DeYoung on the same stage! Whew! That will blow the petals off a tulip!!
“Piper, seeming a tad bit unhinged, passionately hollers how he wants everyone to embrace the five points of Calvinism.”
I thought the Christian hedonist was a 7-point Calvinist … doesn’t the Pied Piper want the youngsters to embrace the other two points?
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It’s never about the money…..they say.
While making millions and telling others to give all.
Disgusting!!
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That quote was one of the most beautiful and profound things i have ever read. Thanks.
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And the other four are from 9Mark Dever’s cadre: three former interns of his, and the leader of the Scottish wing of 9Marksism.
https://20schemesequip.com/who-are-9marks-and-how-are-they-connected-to-20schemes/
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I have said this for many years, I believe that Mr. Piper struggles with profound mental health issues. Not a professional pov but I do believe the issue is pervasive and it effects him.
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“CrossCon?” Sounds like a setup for a HUG joke.
More seriously-ick. “ I’ve heard all of it flail in my own head and lash against my ribs, leaving sourness in my stomach no medicine can aid” I feel that.
Why is the evangelical industrial complex so interested in “unreached nations?” I’m sure the $149 a head has something to do with it. But intentionally or not, doesn’t it also protect the status quo back home? It’s got to be easier for the system if the most engaged young believers are off being white saviors somewhere, instead of being “radical” right here in the US of A. It would be awfully inconvenient if those sold-out-for-Jesus kids started asking why their megachurches use NDAs and their celebrity pastors have million dollar houses.
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I’m a Calvinist (Presbyterian variety) and I definitely want more Christians to believe in the five points of Calvinism. This is because I believe that all five points are Biblical.
This doesn’t mean I support church leaders who abuse, or ignore the fact that there are some Calvinists out there who do abuse. I want those people removed from ministry.
I also believe that being up front and honest about Calvinism is essential for any Calvinist pastor who is applying for a position in a non-Calvinist church.
Moreover, I do not see non-Calvinists as enemies, but as friends who are wrong. I’m happy to contend in loving discussion with these fellow believers.
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By the way, I’m also against “Celebrity pastors” and megachurches.
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Well, don’t color me surprised. Sounds just like the new-and-improved Calvinista Cool version of the old stuff.
Hubby and I went to a 3-day SBC church planting conf. ( in 2013, I think)….. Richard Land a couple of other old-school big wigs. Pay a fee in advance, pay your travel expenses, pay your hotel bill, buy you meals ……. buy some book – they had a few tables full… (Richard Land would autograph his!!! Awesome, not.)
(They had special books for “planter wives”.)
Attendees were divided into small teams to map out and make design plans for a church building, and recruiting newcomers (yeah, a let’s pretend play-acting sort of thing). The teams plans were judged and there were cheap prizes for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.
Me, being what I am (female), I was relegated to silent observer status. So, day 2, I brought one of the Louis L’Amour books I had brought with me. I scooted my chair over to the wall and read….. day 3, another book, another great adventure.
Day 3, we did get a free, catered lunch: a barbecue sandwich, a small bag of potato chips, a Solo cup of lemonade or tea, bland banana pudding or a small scoop of ice cream on a piece of dry chocolate cake for dessert.
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Welp, as someone who has actually spent decades working among unreached people groups I can tell ya we don’t need or want 10% of that audience showing up “over here”.
For one thing the hard lines of Calvinist theology aren’t accepted among the existing national church leaders I know. (They do love the prosperity gospel though).
For another thing churches in many parts of the world have men and women leaders. Networks of house churches in China are led by women. Complimentarianism isn’t welcomed.
All that aside, most Western Christians I’ve met simply can’t handle what it means to incarnate into another culture in order to serve. My org and others I work alongside are littered with failed attempts of people who thought it would be great to “reach the heathen” (cough cough) but didn’t examine themselves honestly enough to ask if they had what it took to humble themselves to become servants. They come, they stay less than five years, they’re gone.
We don’t need any more American heros coming to “the mission field” with their egos and big budgets. What’s needed are people from any culture willing to empower local people. Kinda like Jesus did. Living simply. Walking with his disciples day in and day out – no shiny seminaries just dusty streets. And releasing others to do ministry stuff while they are still learners.
Not glamorous. It takes 10+ years just to become effective in another culture. It’s a lot of hard work and there are no stages or accolades. That’s what radical looks like. I really don’t think Platt or any of these guys get it.
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Jerome,
One of the other directors is an Acts29 man (a Scot who trained at TWW’s favourite seminary) and the local 20schemes church is pastored by a US church planter who is grateful for the roast coffee sent from across the pond to strengthen him and last year he blessed a new burial ground in the town – a somewhat unreformed action.
Such is life in “The Land of the Book”. You couldn’t make it up.
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Lowlandseer,
The irony is that 20schemes took over what was the Free Church of Scotland building in the centre of the town and the Free Church is now based in a community centre in a “scheme”.
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That’s because there has been a long history of preaching ‘the’ Gospel in international mission efforts that “whosoever will may come.” The predestined elect mumbo jumbo is foreign on foreign fields; it is not good news for ALL people proclaimed from the heavens the night Christ was born … that every tongue, tribe and nation are within reach of the Savior’s love and salvation.
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At this point, New Calvinism will have to reinvent itself to stay afloat; the American church is getting wise to the aberrant belief and practice of this bunch. Young folks will still be attracted to it because it is cool … until they find that the message is cold and lifeless.
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I wish that message had gotten across to the multitude of SBC-YRR graduates fresh out of seminary a few years ago who took over traditional (non-Calvinist) SBC churches by stealth and deception … they lied to church search committees about their theological leaning – evidently justifying that for the good of the New Calvinist movement to restore ‘the’ one true gospel (Calvinism) that the American church has lost.
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“Old” (classical) Calvinism is a totally different beast than New Calvinism. As a former Southern Baptist for 70 years (I’m a “Done” now), I worshipped alongside classical Calvinists who I found to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. I counted many as friends. However, the new boys on the block are militant, aggressive, and arrogant; they are not known by their love.
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More “Con” than “Cross” with some of these characters.
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re: the enthusiasm for emotionally-charged mass gatherings, this seems to have been a feature of Evangelical mass-mobilization for decades.
During my time, decades ago, affiliated with the local campus chapter of what was then called “Campus Crusade for Christ”, the local chapter director told me, IIRC, that the annual 2-day “conference” was more effective in producing spiritual growth than a year of CCC-style small group discipleship meetings. So it was imperative to get as many as possible of the local student chapter members to participate in these large group meetings.
My perception is that the emotional “charge” from gatherings of this kind does not endure until the next meeting, and that personal commitments to pursue ministry vocation made at such meetings may not be well-considered. The mentality at the CCC large gatherings I recall was that the Acts 28 “Great Commission” was an individual charge to every believer to pursue missionary work. Unstated but implied was that one would in some sense be rejecting Divine command if one did not pursue vocational ministry.
“If you get one thing, get wisdom.” There was, in my recollection, a kind of frantic urgency to save as many as possible in the time that remains. This urgency naturally deprecates every non-ministry activity that does not directly contribute to evangelism and missions. We have forgotten how the early Church triumphed over pagan Rome … slowly, over a period of centuries.
Another “if you get one thing, get wisdom” thought is that these mass gatherings may function as COVID super-spreader events, and repeated infection with the CV may result in negative consequences for cognitive and executive function, as well as other undesirable sequelae. This is IMO not a great way to recruit the next generation of vocational servants of the Gospel.
OTOH, granting for the sake of argument the doctrine that all that happens is Decreed by YHWH, perhaps these impairments serve the Divine Purposes. This thought does tempt me to wonder whether it may be that in our day God’s Hand is against the churches.
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I recently read a comment – and I honestly don’t remember the source so if it was here on this site, please forgive me for not giving proper credit – in regards to the great commission. If we, as followers of the Lord are ‘to go into all the world and preach the gospel’, perhaps we should consider, with the influx of so many immigrants and refugees into our country, that God has brought ‘the world’ right to our very doorsteps. What then should we be doing? I have thought about that a lot recently.
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Only that I had a better time at (pre-Covid) AnthroCon than these Calvinjugend could possibly have at CrossCon.
And Calvinists normally go for “Bedroom Evangelism” anyway.
“We Evangelize our Children.” — Massachusetts Puritan when asked why they don’t do missionaries
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Which means you HAVE to keep attending these as they come up or your “On Fire for The LORD” goes Lukewarm. Feature not Bug.
Like signing the Timeshare contract before the dopamine high can wear off.
Wretched Urgency (https://imonk.blog/2016/04/07/64264/) plus the Heresy of Clericalism (i.e. Only Priests, Nonks, Nuns, Missionaries, and professional Ministers count with God; all the lowborn tithing units can go to hell), enforced by God’s Hell-Gun with Ezekiel
TONGUES! TONGUES! TONGUES! are flashier.
(And according to my writing partner, is the easiest one to fake.)
Again, Wretched Urgency.
“ALL THE END TIMES PROPHECIES UP TO THE RAPTURE HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! WE MIGHT NOT HAVE A 1978! OR EVEN A 1977! WORK FOR THE NIGHT IS COMING! AND GOD WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!”
Which is so obvious only our Heretical Lukewarm Heathen brains can understand it.
Wisdom is the Command Control over all the other Gifts; Wisdom is knowing when to do what and (just as important) when NOT to.
But as stated above, TONGUES are flashier and have much more potential for Virtue Signalling One-Upmanship.
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Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard and/or Khmer Rouge, with the One True Pure Ideology.
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Because then the Rules of Celebrity are in effect, and the pewsitters don’t really exist, merging into a single faceless abstract mass like “The People” in Marxspeak.
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I remember one preacher who told the youth group this: If you want to change the world, go home and clean your room. Do your homework. Help your parents with the chores. You cannot do more than ordinary until you do the ordinary.
Not many youth got fired up over cleaning their rooms. But he told them the truth.
God isn’t in the crowds, the multitudes, the whirlwinds. He is in the still small voice.
We have to be quiet to hear Him.
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P.S. And “CrossCon” sounds like one of those Clever Christianese Counterfeit names, a consolation/booby prize for those forbidden to attend The Real Thing.
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Off topic but I’m concerned. Does anybody know what’s happened to David Bonner? Wonderingeagle.wordpress.com
Generally he responds to my emails but that isn’t happening and he hasn’t posted in 3 months
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Neil Cameron,
“Moreover, I do not see non-Calvinists as enemies, but as friends who are wrong.”
++++++++++++
really? wrong? not just different (having a different emphasis & perspective on things)?
.
.
and wrong, meaning what?
-not legitimate christians?
-not saved?
-having ulterior motives?
-causing harm/destruction to human lives?
.
.
what are the consequences of being ‘wrong’ (as you see it)?
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Fisher,
“Not glamorous. It takes 10+ years just to become effective in another culture. It’s a lot of hard work and there are no stages or accolades. That’s what radical looks like. I really don’t think Platt or any of these guys get it.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
seems to me they wax romantic on it all. never having done it themselves.
with zero understanding that comes from practical experience.
theorists. with soft, clean hands.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“(They had special books for “planter wives”.)”
+++++++++++++++++
i guess the female human being doesn’t exist except as an impulse/response to the fully human man who does stuff and has a name and a face.
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To those who hold rigidly to reformed theology, there are no other legitimate expressions of Christian faith. Being the “elect” produces an arrogance that will not recognize believers outside of Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinists (the harcore 5-pointers) prefer to think of the essence of Christianity as doctrines ‘about’ grace rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. That is why 90+% of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years … Jesus is not the Main Thing … “friends who are wrong.”
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Max,
“To those who hold rigidly to reformed theology, there are no other legitimate expressions of Christian faith.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
so nice to know i’m illegitimate.
i look forward to hearing Neil Cameron’s thoughts in response.
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elastigirl,
Sigh.
As far as I’m concerned he can be a Calvinist and I can be a non-Calvanist, but we can both be believers.
But, to me, a Calvinist telling others they are wrong in their belief about God is like they are claiming to be God himself in their knowing. That makes me wonder if they are a heretic.
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struggles with profound mental health issues
brian,
In agreement with that astute observation. Having experience my entire life with a loved one with unaddressed bipolar disorder, I find it very hard to listen to someone in full mania mode. Grandiose to say the least. My heart broke listening to the effect it has had on his son who speaks out bravely but maybe got the grandiose bug too. Bad theology is devastating to marriages and families.
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I have been to authoritarian, complementarian, men-first New Calvinist churches. You can see the oppression on the faces of women and children where pastors “preach to men” (a quote from Matt Chandler). The “beauty of complementarity” is an ugly thing.
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As far as they are concerned, you can’t.
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Max,
Strange social structures that are exhausting to try understand. I aspire to see it as “friends who are wrong”. Emily Dickinson struggled with depression and suicide because of the cold Calvinists of the second wave- maybe the worst. Puritan, reformed, confused, harsh theology that cost men, women and children their lives. Truly ugly. Weird that we try to emulate them. No thank you…
I am a proud reformed calvinist flunky!
Predestined to reject bad theology!
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Another feature, I think, of the CCC college ministry conferences I recall was the “make a decision” (to, for example, commit oneself to a ministry vocation life path) character of these gatherings. It appears to me to be very similar to the CCC (and much of wider Evangelicalism) approach to evangelism, attempting to induce a prompt “decision” that it is hoped will thereafter have lifelong consequences. It’s IMO a terrible way to recruit candidates for ministry; much better would be deliberate, careful, prolonged consideration of aptitude, character, personality, etc. It’s easy to decide to pursue ministry as vocation; it’s very hard to actually fulfill such a vocation over a lifetime. That’s perhaps an additional perspective on James’s caution that “not many should aspire to be teachers”.
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Samuel Conner,
My experiences were very similar…
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Max,
Well, they aren’t Jesus Christ, God in the flesh. They, nor their theology, have power over me. Thank you Jesus!
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Again, high-pressured to Sign that Timeshare Contract.
This would fit in with the Fundagelical tunnel-vision on the Moment of Decision/Damascus Road Salvation and total indifference to anything that came before and after. Instantaneous Total Sanctification when you Walk the Aisle and Say the Words.
It’s like that sub-subgenre of sci-fi horror where they guy uploads his consciousness to the Cloud to live forever as a digital algorithm and finds himself still inside his meat body – the Algorithm that’s now the REAL Him is just a copy and he’s still stuck in Meatspace.
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And everybody shouted AMEN!!
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… is why 90+% of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years. As far as me and my house, we will stick with Jesus.
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elastigirl,
I’ve heard the Calvinist debate points so many times I have them memorized. They usually write me off as having an intellectual disability, unable to understand their theology. Praise God, even a child can understand the Gospel of Christ … they don’t have to wade through a bunch of jots and tittles of theology to get to Jesus.
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senecagriggs,
https://www.facebook.com/david.bonner.1257
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That elastigirl, is a damn good question!
So, if you’re wrong about this, that, and the other convoluted tenets of the Christian religion, does it mean you’re not a real ‘Christian’?
According to them, in their ideology, no, you’re not.
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Fisher,
Hear what your saying. It could be argued that a certain percentage of US mission work and intervention is simply an extension of US soft power.
On incarnation service and mission work, perhaps the best model isn’t clergy, but credible and best practice chaplaincy. This of couse entails a genuine pastoral presence and active listening which earns one the right to speak when asked.
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Ian Docker,
Once again apologies for typos. on my part. Big fingers, small old mobile phone & she who must be obeyed – no new reformed theology here – insists I must make do.
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Crosscon – isn’t that the perfect word for what’s perpetrated by the Elmer Gantrys and Kenneth Copelands of this world?
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FreshGrace,
People from remote places, from many tongues tribes and nations speaking our language are right now trying to fit into our society. Ready to engage and interact with Americans.
Yet our leaders shout “Get rid of the immigrants, send them home!”
So we keep ourselves separate. We learn to fear them. We ignore the immigrant children in our schools yet spend millions on pretty wrapped shoe boxes to send “over there” at Christmas.
Would we have welcomed Mary, Joseph and Jesus if they fled persecution to live in our neighborhood?
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FreshGrace,
I have a friend who volunteers with an after school program tutoring elementary school children. Most of them are immigrants. It’s a great opportunity.
There were Afghanistan refugees in a camp in my hometown for over 9 months- friends went weekly. There are many opportunities like this if we start poking around.
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My Calvinism:
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.”
― R.C. Sproul, Chosen By God: Know God’s Perfect Plan for His Glory
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senecagriggs,
Why bother to play Go Fish? The outcome is predetermined. Not one molecule, including how quickly you reach for the card, means there is no such thing as chance.
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The US as Egypt? Note those of us in the US benefit by the cheap labor (cheap because they can’t complain) of undocumented labor on the farms and in the slaughterhouses, caring for the elderly, etc.
Joseph and Mary would have been allowed to weed and harvest for low wages (no gleaning allowed) and if they complained handed over to the authorities.
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Hello all.
I’ve been reading TWW for a few years now and greatly appreciate all that has been shared here. I’ve learned a lot of invaluable things. I live in Nairobi, Kenya (born and raised) and I can tell you that Calvinism is, unfortunately, alive and well in this and several other African countries. We even have an African branch of TGC with plenty of local contributors. One of the speakers shown above, John Musyimi, has preached at my former church a couple of times. As has been stated by one of the posters here, he’s been through Mark Dever’s internship program. The church he was at before is listed as a 9 Marks church along with a few others in the city. There are a number of other Calvinist churches that don’t seem to have any formal affiliation with Calvinist entities as far as I can discern.
My former church has effectively been taken over by the pastors we unwittingly brought in some years ago. A lot of people have left including most of the former elders. They have been implementing registered membership and preaching about church discipline, looking at Matthew 18. I’ve seen Dever’s book at the church office (one by De Young too) and I’ve seen some congregants sharing posts on social media from Reformed sources.
I can tell you for free that the vast majority of christians in Kenya have absolutely no idea what Reformed Theology/Calvinism is, including pastors and other church leaders. I was under the influence of Calvinist teachers, beginning to think and act like them, without ever knowing what it was. It was the fact that I’d actually spent a long time studying God’s Word in depth that shook me out of that stupor. The ideas espoused by Calvinism are indeed very foreign to believers around here.
The congregation at my former church is subtly being introduced to calvinistic ideas without being none the wiser. I strongly believe Stealth Calvinism is very much in effect here and I am deeply saddened by the deception and lack of transparency going on at my former church. The funny thing is that the lead pastor has previously stated that he disagrees with the Reformed understanding of election. Yet he has no problem having others lay the groundwork for this thing to take root in his own church without their knowledge. I needed to get this out there so that your readers may know that many of the ills you’ve experienced in your churches over there have since made their way here.
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Erp,
Good point Erp, good point.
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senecagriggs,
As a practicing scientist/engineer, that has a non-superficial understanding of classical physics and Quantum Mechanics, I completely dissagree with R.C. Sproul’s statement… that statement shows he does not understand Physics or Quantum mechanics…
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That’s like saying if any one thing has one exception, it means that the generalized rule itself is not true.
Sproul is full-o’-poo-poo.
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But then you’re One of THEM.
Because “practicing scientist/engineer” = “Vain Imaginings of Men”, NOT “THE! WORD!! OF!!! GAWD!!!!
Remember Holy Nincompoop Syndrome: The more invincibly ignorant you are, the more Godly you must be.
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Like an Intellectual Snob who counts you as hopelessly retarded because your IQ is ONE point less than his.
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His blog went dark after September 24.
Which in the blogosphere means it’s effectively dead; all the readers/followers would have dispersed by now.
I have had very little contact with him (no phone contact, only an occasional email). And from the emails/rants I’ve gotten, he sounds like he’s having a breakdown – all those years covering church corruption has got him stuck in the Rage Phase, and the election results (and Christian Jubilation over same) seem to have pushed him over the edge. I’m really worried about the guy.
P.S. I think Seneca the Smug is going through withdrawals. Before Eagle went dark, Seneca was his blog’s regular troll, camping out replacing “ChapmanEd” (a Bible-quoting Trump Fanatic, and I do mean FANATIC, who before 2016 was Spiritual Sounding Board’s regular troll) and “I’m So Ronery” (a general nasty A-hole who popped up out of nowhere). Eagle had to block them both a couple years ago and Seneca stepped in as replacement.
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Fisher,
My point exactly. And there may be many more in the days to come.
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Well, if your god can be thrown off by one small molecule, then he, and we, are in big doo, doo.
God is bigger and better than that.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
That is sad. I can understand why he went dark after dealing with the nutcases that care about nothing but getting the better over people. That is disgusting.
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Sproul was like Piper. He had to keep coming up with something sensational to say in order to stay on the radar and keep selling books. With the number of odd balls in their movement, I doubt that Sovereign God predestined New Calvinism.
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It’s hard to have your wits about you when it comes to New Calvinists. They will out-and-out lie to you regarding their theological affiliation in order to gain control of the pulpit and ultimately the church.
The new reformers operate in stealth and deception. Their teaching is slow and subtle in order to get reformed hooks in you … until they get you to believe a lie. Only the Truth can set you free … that’s why it’s critical to stay in the Word and pray for discernment “because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).
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Max,
From an article I recently read, young men and to a lesser extent women are joining the Eastern Orthodox Church in droves for the liturgical worship and the knowledge that the Orthodox Church has been worshipping the same way for the last 1000 plus years. The YRR is built too much on certain personality’s who sell their books on each other’s websites. The same speakers almost every year making good money I am sure from what it costs to hear them. I guess I am becoming cynical.
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= modus operandi of New Calvinist takeover of non-Calvinist churches … it’s happening all over the Southern Baptist Convention
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Indeed … New Calvinism is a cult of personality (Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc. etc.) … these cult leaders have successfully mobilized a young army of new reformers who are running roughshod over the American church
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I don’t see how someone who thinks God could be feminine, as Elastigirl has said, rejecting scripture, could possibly think they are saved. They have a religion based on their experiences and opinions, not the Bible. Calvinists have Bible to support their beliefs, though they have not rightly divided the scripture, as Paul tells us to do in II Timothy 2:16, and also are very wrong.
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“Chance” vs God
You choose one or the other Dee.
https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B100505/ex-nihilo-nihil-fit-out-of-nothing-nothing-comes
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Troy:
How dare you determine whether Elastgirl is saved or not. You are not God. Only he knows who is saved or not.
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Dr. Chalmers I believe as a Calvinist that is God the creator of quantum physics, he put it in place and understands it perfectly.
Quantum physics serves God’s eternal purposes.
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It’s flabbergasting what you (generic you) can concoct from the Bible.
In fact, there’s a whole lucrative industry based on it.
I’ll take elastigirl over any of those paragons in the ‘pastoring’ industry.
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The New Calvinism movement is aggressive, militant, deceptive, toxic … its tentacles are long and will squeeze the spiritual life out of anything it grasps … it is intent in dragging non-Calvinist ministries under its umbrella … its followers are passionate about their cause, but it is a misplaced passion … it is another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel at all. So sorry to hear that the new reformers have invaded Africa and that they have taken over your former church. May God lead you to another place free of their influence, Arlo.
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What would God ever do without Troy to tall Him who’s REALLY Saved and who isn’t?
Like Grima Wormtongue whispering into King Theoden’s ear –
“ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HER GOAT! HER GOAT!”
After all, Troy does what God would do if God ONLY knew what was REALLY going on!
And there is no shortage of Troys out there.
I remember someone in a comment thread (unknown location) who claimed Knowing whether someone was Saved or not was his Spiritual Gift. Guy would attend (crash?) funerals just to Prophesy about the deceased.
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Chuckp,
Which begs the question why the EO specifically and not one of the Western-rite Liturgicals?
Is it because of the lure of the exotic? Because the EO is as different as you can get from American Protestant Christianity and still be Christian.
Is it because of high-demand Strictness, like Western converts (raised Permissive) to the most extreme forms of Islam?
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I can’t help wondering what exactly he meant (I’m assuming he had to be, for the usual reasons, male) by the words “spiritual” and “growth”.
Jesus himself saw surprisingly little of what we might reasonably call “spiritual growth” during the big incidents when crowds followed or flocked to him. On the contrary, a crowd would often turn on him as quickly as it had formed. By the same token, it was precisely in the small, intimate encounters that most of his real ministry happened.
ISTM that if CCC felt that they weren’t seeing any, or much, growth during an entire academic year’s worth of their discipleship meetings, it would have been better to ask what it was that Jesus did that they weren’t imitating.
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I’m worried about Eagle. Judging from the infrequent emails increasing in general hostility, he seems to have slid into a permanent (and nasty) Rage Phase. His last email outburst caused my writing partner (the target of that outburst) to block him completely – email, social media, phone numbers (plural) everything.
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That IS an interesting question, isn’t it? I wonder whether they’re moving to liturgical settings more generally, including, and perhaps especially, but not only, the EO.
I’ve gone back to the Episcopal liturgy quite bigly in the last two or three years. I can’t speak for the youth of today directly (though I remember being young, as I’m still only 50-something). But the first reason we went liturgical is that we wanted to go somewhere where the bread and wine, and specifically not the sermon or the singing (aka “the worship”), were the central element of the service.
There are other reasons too. I’m finding more and more that religious processes that are designed to make me emotional, actually leave me cold and unimpressed. Whereas those that quietly get on with exploring the deep themes of scribsher (indeed, of life) are profoundly moving precisely because they’re not trying to be.
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This is also my experience. Every group has strengths and weaknesses, but a real risk in reformed circles is arrogance.
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The spiritual life is indeed being slowly sucked out of the church. Many of those who had a heart for ministry have left and been replaced by others who seem to have little interest in getting involved in the life of the church at all. It’s a sad state of affairs.
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Nick Bulbeck,
I think it was kind of a mechanical calculation, 12 hours of concentrated teaching in a high-pressure emotionally-charged environment versus distributed briefer meetings during the school year, with all the attendant stresses and distractions on the students.
IIRC, discipleship in campus context, CCC-style, at that time was basically “how to do evangelism and discipleship CCC-style”, and it was, I think, kind of a vehicle by which to recruit students into CCC as donor-supported workers after graduation. They were trying to reproduce themselves, literally.
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Hello Elastigirl, sorry I wasn’t able to get back to you quickly.
I think you may have not read the sentence immediately proceeding my comment. It says thi:
“I’m happy to contend in loving discussion with these fellow believers.”
I’m an itinerant preacher in Northern Tasmania (Australia). I preach in Presbyterian Churches, but also in Anglican, Baptist, Independent and Uniting Churches (The Uniting Church is similar to the very liberal wing of the American Methodist Church). So I am often preaching to congregations that aren’t Calvinist. In the case of the Baptist Church I preach at, I’m an Amilennial preaching to a premillennial church.
So as I’m preaching there, I’m preaching to people that I disagree with on certain topics, such as God’s sovereignty in salvation (ie Calvinism), how baptism should work (I’m a pedobaptist) as well as eschatology.
Now I’m not going to compromise my own own beliefs. The congregations I preach at know that I am a Calvinist, a pedobaptist with an Amil view of the end times. So I preach expositions of scripture, and if the passage in question raises certain issues, I will address them. So if I preach from Ephesians 1, I’m going to explain and defend Predestination. But I’m not going to preach predestination from every passage in scripture.
Also, there is a difference between someone who doesn’t believe in predestination, and someone who is Pelagian. The person who doesn’t believe in predestination is someone who needs to examine the Bible more closely. A Pelagian, however, would argue that every person has the ability to choose to serve God and to live a subsequent life without sin. The latter is a serious heresy because the death of Christ is no longer for our sins, and humans have the power to save themselves.
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Max said:
“To those who hold rigidly to reformed theology, there are no other legitimate expressions of Christian faith.”
———
I would say that this is sort of true. However it doesn’t mean that those who differ with me on these specific issues aren’t saved, or that God isn’t working in them and through them.
For the sake of argument, put aside the terms “Calvinism” and “Reformed”:
What I do as a Christian is that I want my faith and life to be in harmony with what The Holy Spirit has revealed to us when he wrote scripture. “Sola Scriptura” is not only the belief that God wrote the Bible, but also that the Bible “thoroughly equips” the Christian (2 Tim 3.16-17). So things like Church Tradition, human reasoning and personal experience are interpreted through the lens of Sola Scriptura.
So back to Calvinism.
We Calvinists believe that the major teachers in the Reformed movement, starting with, but not exclusively, John Calvin – that these Christian leaders and teachers and theologians have essentially “gotten it right”. So we don’t view people like Calvin as being the inspired word of God, we believe that he got MOST of his conclusions from summarising the inspired word.
So while I view Calvin’s words and his conclusions positively, I don’t view his words as scripture.
Now this idea – that I am right and others are wrong – might seem arrogant, it’s actually not if I am actually correct. Contending and discussing these issues with other Christians is not an aggressive act, but an assertive one, in which I trust that the Holy Spirit will use my words as I preach/talk to those Christians with whom I have a disagreement with.
Just because certain issues are debatable within Christianity doesn’t mean that all sides are correct. It depends on the issue. “Baptism for the Dead” (in 1 Corinthians). for example, is something that no one can really know much about. The “Intermediate state” of a Christian after he/she dies but before Jesus returns, is another debatable idea, but one which scripture does offer some (not all) information. Predestination, Baptism and Eschatology are areas where Christians have historically divided, but that doesn’t mean all sides are right, or that all sides are wrong. It could be that one side is correct and the other is wrong.
Over the years it has become clear to me that people, when confronted with a disagreement with another person, will often attack the person rather than address the argument. HOW I approach an argument is important, not just WHAT the argument is about. I have often found that people who have very strong beliefs in something will often make the mistake of attacking the person rather than the argument. And I say this as someone who has very strong beliefs.
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Call me heretic.
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I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters, up front and on the barrel-head.
But I reject the doctrine of PSA (penal substitutionary atonement).
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Just a lile bit more on Calvinism.
As I’ve pointed out, I’m Presbyterian. The various Presbyterian denominations were historically built on Reformed theology.
I’m also Australian. And this is actually important because Reformed theology has different groupings around the world. In places like the US and Canada, Reformed Theology is mainly seen in Baptist churches. While there are Reformed and Presbyterian denominations as well, in North America it is mainly Baptist in its history. In places like the UK, Australia and New Zealand, Reformed Theology is mainly seen in Anglican and Presbyterian churches.
Before I became a Presbyterian, I was Anglican. I was an Evangelical and Reformed Anglican. So the heroes I remember from my youth were people like John Stott, Jim Packer and Dick Lucas in the UK. In Australia, my heroes were people like Peter and Philip Jensen, the Evangelist John Chapman, and the theologians Donald Robinson, Broughton Knox and Graeme Goldsworthy. If anyone knows these names they will know that I am a “Sydney Anglican”. And I remain very influenced by this movement despite becoming Presbyterian in my 30s.
Between 20-25 years ago I was one of those people who commented on Michael Spencer’s “Internet Monk” site. One day, Michael published a very negative article about Calvinists. I responded negatively as well. But over time, and reading iMonk’s own personal experience, I began to realise that the Calvinism he was critiquing was specifically American Baptist Calvinism.
If you look at the speakers at CrossCon 25, there are only two speakers who aren’t Baptist: Kevin DeYoung and Mez McConnell.
What, specifically, is the problem with Baptist churches? Note that the problem is more specific in being American Baptist churches.
Baptists are the dominant protestant denomination in the US. They also dominate the South. As a result, they often express beliefs that aren’t necessarily biblical. Instead, they promote Southern and conservative culture. Now whenever this conservative culture fits in with the Bible, they’re doing okay. So Abortion, Homosexuality, Euthanasia… those issues can be found directly in the pages of scripture. But what about things that aren’t biblical? Intense patriotism is, I believe, an idol. The idea that the US was founded solely by Evangelical Christians as a Christian nation is not only unbiblical but also wrong, historically. Gun ownership has nothing to do with Christian belief. Keeping government small and not having welfare policies is not something you can find, or glean, from the Bible. Add to this the very unhealthy spread of conspiracy theories and propaganda: Evangelicals overwhelmingly supported the Iraq war; Evangelicals were over-represented in refusing the Covid vaccine and spreading conspiracies about it.
And that finds its way into the teachings of American Reformed leaders. John Macarthur, for example, opposed lockdowns because he (and his followers) thought that lockdowns were specifically aimed at Christians in order to destroy the church because the governments that were pushing it were liberal and progressive and therefore evil. So simplistic and wrong.
And these American Reformed Leaders also follow in the actions of conservative media figures by insulting, attacking and ridiculing those who they disagree with… whether that person is a woke progressive or a christian who is an old-earth creationist. Rather than loving their enemy or turning the other cheek, many Christians are now talking armed revolution. The words of Jesus no longer apply, it seems.
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Muff Potter,
Hello Muff.
I have to ask… why did Jesus go to hell?
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Troy,
“I don’t see how someone who thinks God could be feminine, as Elastigirl has said, rejecting scripture, could possibly think they are saved.”
+++++++++++++++++++
good grief.
to think God has a donger… even so, i have no reason to question your saved status.
you can pretend otherwise, but scripture indeed describes God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as both masculine and feminine. Whatever it all means, seems to me that God transcends gender.
but i don’t give a rat’s a$$ about gender. i’m more interested in things like character, integrity, skill, intelligence, wit, & kindness in both human beings and God.
besides, dongers are just to silly to be in charge. might as well glue on some googly eyes & a Mr. Potatohead cowboy hat.
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Neil Cameron,
I appreciate your reply.
guess i’ll sum things up with this: Say the word ‘heresy/heretic’ with the caution you would normally reserve for ‘Please castrate me.
(inspired by Richard Curtis’ “Bernard And Genie” with Lenny Henry & Alan Cumming)
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Neil Cameron,
“Now this idea – that I am right and others are wrong – might seem arrogant, it’s actually not if I am actually correct.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
so, getting back to this bit:
what are the consequences of being ‘wrong’ (as you see it)?
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elastigirl,
It depends upon the “level of wrongness”. A person who denies the Trinity or Justification by Faith is clearly an unbeliever whose sins remain unforgiven. A person who calls themselves a Christian and who has a different view of Baptism to me can still be a believer.
The consequences of being “wrong” range from the minor to the soul destroying. If a Christian who doesn’t believe in Predestination but subsequently accepts it will end up being strengthened in their faith. If a Christian starts to believe in “Declarative prayer” (the sort Bethel teach), their faith will be weakened and harmed.
Actions are part of this too, not just theology and belief. If an elder of a church (Pastor, minister, etc) is a good solid preacher who teaches the truth but who commits adultery over a long period… that also acts as a severe weakening of that person’s faith. Add to this child sexual abuse and/or being a controlling narcissist and the same can be said.
To me, theology and practice go together. Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy are never separated by Jesus or the Apostles. The content of your faith is very important, as is the content of your actions. Otherwise building houses on the sand comes to mind.
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elastigirl,
In my day we used to spell Him with a capital H showing it meant something different. (The Authorised Version didn’t, precisely because it was old.) Just like we knew dogs were something different. That’s when slow children and secular agnostics had nous.
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I mean because it was old in spelling not old in morals. (Phew!) We knew this. The basic hermeneutic of living was well known.
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Samuel Conner,
Industrial revivalism (invariably equivocating * on every issue of substance) goes back at least to the Moody Bible Institute per Tim Gloege and the Jesuits per Roland Barthes.
{ * a very funny phrase but I’m leaving it in LOL }
{ reminds me, in churchspeak subtext text, vibrant = shaky 😉 }
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Looking from our dimension of time, which according to physicists from about 80 years ago, is a sort of condensation of light, we don’t know “when” God in His continual present eternity forg- “ave” as grammatical single act.
Personally I allow for the existence of some who, provisionally confused by badly explained concepts (I assume, not by you) have a heart that is inclined towards inarticulately saying “Lord help thou mine unbelief” (the latter being on a spectrum of belief).
Thus knowing how and why our sins are forgiven and where that fits in the trail of grace are things we ought to equip ourselves to unfold to each other far more, especially the unspoken P-word (the work of what prayer really is). I’m glad of this discussion, please look for me, I’m usually a couple of days behind everybody else.
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Muff Potter,
Not only all the other neglected points of Christ – ology, but the neglected points of pneumat – ology, and the neglected points of all the other neglected ologies, fill this out.
The wrath of God is against the sin in the world (oppressing by thieving and lying, including untruth from religion bigwigs) that traps us and His taking its effects on Himself is His way of feeding us the rope to free us, its hostages.
“What you bind on earth is bound in heaven” (like He did) is not superstitious or material.
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Neil Cameron,
Some self-claimed opponents of Pelagius, in reality, copied his negation of prevenient grace as God’s provision in what total depravity actually refers to.
Election is what happens to those rich in the gift of faith (James 2:5), while predestination is the substance (the content) of the inheritance.
I agree, naming names is not a choice ploy because even those mutilated by Archbishop Laud blamed Arminius for it – which supposed deed history and writings disprove.
I’m also VERY wide in background from the pew sitting side!
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thank you!
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Burnout is the model we are told we have to emulate.
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Neil Cameron
Thank you for your defense of reformed theology. It appears to most closely reflect the truths of Scripture.
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I would say, from my own journey up and out of spiritual abuse, that the arrogance of this statement is breathtaking, and the potential for spiritual abuse in such categorical declarations is devastating.
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Neil Cameron,
It’s all well and good to say that you believe that those who disagree with Calvinism are saved, but there are more than a few Calvinist teachers who are happy to cast doubt on the faith of those who hold to a contrary view. The audience of those teachers also end up espousing the same view.
The titles that you choose to hold to in identifying your theological stance shouldn’t be set aside, even for argument’s sake. My reason for that is if as a believer you are unable to openly and clearly state exactly what it is you believe, then you leave yourself open to being misunderstood and misrepresented. If Calvinism is indeed true and biblical, there is absolutely no reason to conceal exactly what that entails from anyone, least of all other believers. So, let’s not set aside your “Reformed/Calvinist” title.
The Reformers didn’t “get it right”, as you’ve stated. In comparing their words and actions against what the Word says, they fall well short in their orthodoxy and orthopraxy, the importance of which you’ve already stated in this thread. The believer’s standard always has and always will be our Lord. There has never been a need for any man inspired summary of anything that God says. We are told to meditate on His Word, not Calvin’s or anybody else’s writings.
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I haven’t a clue, and neither do you, other than what you’ve been told by others.
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Neil Cameron,
I have been a practicing researcher/scientist/engineer for over 40 years…. And I am personally, currently working on a project, and reviewing the literature, in which the conventional equations of the physics of magnetism does not explain what is reported….
In general, though out my carrier, I have developed a deep appreciation that we humans only have a superficial understanding of physical reality. I am fare from the only scientist that says this….. if they are honest….
If, one starts with a world view that everything in our physical world was created by G$d, that G$d is three persons and ONE, and some how evil in the world is ultimately for G$d’s glory, or at least the physical world as we know it is the “best option” ( I am not taking a position the last one, just stating what I have heard),
THEN, it is very arrogant to think we humans have Theology all “worked out”..
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Oh, arrogance is the primary identifying characteristic of New Calvinism; it’s the first word that pops to mind my many who have experience the new reformers. I have never heard anyone accuse NeoCals of love: “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:35).
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There’s not enough spiritual life and power in most churches to blow the dust off a peanut.
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I like the Scripture which says that believers are “predestined” to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:39), that God wants his children to be more like Jesus. The Bible also notes that He has “chosen” believers to be holy and blameless before Him in love (Ephesians 1:4). You will not find any reference on this blog or elsewhere in cyberspace where New Calvinists have been accused of being Christlike, holy, blameless, or loving.
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A false teaching/theology always contains a wrong view of God, man, sin and salvation. In regard to reformed theology, a debate has raged for the last 500 years on who is right and who is wrong when comes to a handful of Scriptures from Paul’s epistles. But during those five centuries, 90+% of Christendom rejected the tenets of reformed theology and chose to worship Christ in various expressions of non-Calvinist belief and practice. These believers rest in the whole of Scripture pertaining to God’s plan of salvation for ALL people … there is a scarlet thread woven through the fabric of the Bible for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
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A genuine Calvinist of the hyper 5-point persuasion would never say that non-Calvinists are saved … it just ain’t in them. Their doctrinal positions on “Unconditional Election” and “Limited Atonement” prevent them from accepting other expressions of faith as legitimate.
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Beware Muff. That is a trick Calvinist question, as worn out as the bald tires on a big rig (as you like to say). They believe that Christ descended into hell as part of His suffering for the sins of the elect, only those who were predestined for salvation (which would be only Calvinists, of course).
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I have some questions for you.
1. Can one be Reformed without believing in all 5 points of Calvinism?
2. What do you mean precisely When you use the word “predestination”? I have found that it has many different definitions.
3. How do you define “preservation of the saints?” If one leaves the faith, do you state that “they were never Christians? Another question goes here, but it depends on how you answer #1.
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At Baptist News Global Al Mohler, President of Southern Baptist Seminary is reported in an article to be judging people’s eternal destination. This includes former President Jimmy Carter.
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Don’t forget “Evanescent Grace”, where God sends FALSE Assurance of Salvation/Election to the Repobrate (“THEE, NOT MEEE!”), indistinguishable from the real thing until the Great White Throne (at which point, op cit Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”).
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1) Love and RIGHTeousness are mutually exclusive. We see proof of that every day, from religion & politics (and the unholy spawn of their union).
2) Never underestimate the Arrogance of God’s Special Pets, Calvinists or no. It’s literally Impossible.
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Hard to reconcile that with today’s
“And they’ll know we are Christians
‘Cause we’re smug, ’cause we’re smug,
Yes they’ll KNOW We Are Christians ‘Cause We’re Smug…”
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Neil Cameron, why do you you say that Mez McConnell is not Baptist?
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Neil Cameron,
“The consequences of being “wrong” range from the minor to the soul destroying. If a Christian who doesn’t believe in Predestination but subsequently accepts it will end up being strengthened in their faith.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
strengthened in their faith… in what?
well, faith in the five points of Calvinism, right?
convince me that the consequences of not embracing TULIP will destroy my soul.
convince me that the consequences of embracing TULIP strengthen my ability to love my neighor as myself.
no pat answers allowed. (simply because they lose any debate)
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That doesn’t sound like the God I know; He’s at odds with the Calvinist God on several things! He would be the first to say that reformed theology is full of holes!
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There was no “TULIP” for the first 1500 years of Christianity … where did all those poor souls go with no theological flower to embrace?
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dee,
1. I have heard of “4.5 point Calvinists”. But I would say that to fit the description of being “Reformed”, you have to hold all five.
2. Predestination is part of the character of a determinist God, namely that God has chosen before the creation of the world those who will turn to him in faith and repentance. The idea is that because a person is spiritually dead in their sins, they are incapable of responding to the Gospel. So when the elect person heard the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will, eventually (in our time line), regenerate that person. Once regenerated, they then place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins. This is called Monergism.
3. Re: Perseverance Yes. When a person leaves the faith, it means they were not a Christian to begin with. This is clear in 1 John. The fact is that you can never be 100% certain of another person’s faith, but you have to make assumptions that they are based on their words and works. When it comes to yourself, you can be certain you are a Christian because of the presence of your faith in Christ. Romans 8.16 is a verse I “discovered” recently: “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
The issue of “the reprobate” is one I do have issue with. There are only two people in the Bible (I think) who are described as being predetermined by God to reject him, namely Pharaoh in his attitude to Moses (“God hardened his heart”) and Judas.
One would think that reprobation is the natural mirror of predestination – if God predestined Christians to be saved then he would also predestine unbelievers to not be saved. This is a natural, logical conclusion that many would have. Despite this, universal reprobation (that God has determined who will suffer his wrath) isn’t explicitly taught in scripture.
So is reprobation a biblical doctrine? I think it is possible, but without explicit support in scripture you can’t be certain.
By way of an illustration, imagine you are picking people to play in your baseball team. So you pick your team – you have chosen them. Does that mean you consciously chose to NOT include everyone else in the entire world? That you expended the energy required to make a choice for every single person equally, putting some in your team while excluding billions of others?
This, of course, like all illustrations and metaphors, is incomplete and flawed, but I think it does reflect the lack of clear Biblical teaching on Reprobation.
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I’m not acting on bad faith here. I don’t use “trick questions”.
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There is plenty to not know. Because I believe in Sola Scriptura, I make those assertions because I believe that they are explicit in Scripture. But there are plenty of things that the Bible only hints at, or gives only a cursory explanation. I’m happy for those areas to remain possible and debatable because that’s what the Holy Spirit did when he wrote the Bible.
To be fair, all forms of religious or philosophical belief have certain “truths” that are held to be unchangeable, along with a whole host of things that are debatable. The difference between me and you is that I hold to some beliefs that I believe are unchangeable but which you see as debatable.
Moreover, the idea that to hold such beliefs as unchangeable (in this case, Trinity and Justification by Faith) isn’t necessarily abusive. To have confidence in a series of religious beliefs isn’t abusive. The only way this is possible is if the beliefs are directly abusive. The corollary you make is that non-abusive religious groups are those that have no definites in their belief system.
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Yes there are hyper Calvinists. I am not one of them. I do believe in “Unconditional Election” and “Limited Atonement” and yes I think those who disagree with them are incorrect.
But salvation is by faith alone, by grace alone. You’re not saved because you believe in Predestination, and you’re not unsaved because you disagree with it. I meet Christians all the time who don’t agree with predestination, and I accept them as fellow believers who I will share eternity with.
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Jerome,
I checked out the church he pastors at, it doesn’t seem to be a Baptist church. I’m happy to be wrong on this.
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Sproul preached that very thing. Some Calvinists are uncomfortable with “Limited Atonement” (the “L” in TULIP) – that Jesus’ death was intended to atone for the sins of only the elect, or those chosen by God for salvation. But Sproul taught that a true-blood Calvinist could not moderate on this, retreating to a 4.0 or 4.5. He said:
“There is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic” (R.C. Sproul)
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/sproul-on-four-point-calvinism/
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The assumption I’m making is:
1. The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit so that the disciple of Jesus can be fully equipped for every good work.
2. That the Bible’s teaching on this issue is explicit and detailed, no matter how much we might not fully understand it or accept it.
3. Therefore because TULIP is Biblical, teaching it will lead to growth of the Christian, while denying it is bad for the Christian.
What I have personally experienced from TULIP, and thus experienced by accepting the Biblical truths it summarises, is that “God has me”. He’s saved me from a fate I deserved, and nothing in my life could ever be the reason why God did this – I do not look at my own life and say to God that I deserve his forgiveness.
As a result, I am completely and utterly grateful to God, or at least I should be (Hebrews 12.28). The reason why I want to serve God and be godly is not so that he will accept me into his Kingdom. And the fact that he has accepted me into his Kingdom is not evidence of how good I try to be. I know how hopeless and awful it is to be a sinner in the hands of an angry God, and so I am constantly grateful (and failing, but that is to be expected) that I have been saved.
If assurance is not part of the Christian life, then I will spend my time not knowing if God has accepted me. If assurance is based upon my works, then I will either keep wondering if I’m a Christian, or I will somehow think that I am good enough – both of which rely upon works to save. The only real response to assurance is gratefulness, and gratefulness is what spurs us on to fight sin and do good.
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Not according to R.C. Sproul (see above response to Neil Cameron)
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To be fair, TULIP is simply a moniker for a series of Biblical truths. Much of what Calvin taught can also be found in the words of Augustine, and he lived in the 4th and 5th century.
If the church had been ignoring Biblical truths for centuries, and some theologians discovered this, then there would’ve been a big debate about them. That happened in the Reformation.
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Arrogance has many forms. It is often associated with those who have beliefs that are fundamentalist in nature. I agree that Calvinists can sometimes be arrogant but that is because people overall are arrogant.
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My understanding of this (Penal Substitutionary Atonement) is as follows.
Firstly: God created hell as the place to punish unbelievers for their sins. The unrepentant live on earth and when they die they are sent to hell. So if Jesus went to hell after he died, does that not imply him suffering God’s wrath?
Secondly: Why was it necessary for Jesus to die on a Cross? The Cross was the execution device that the Roman Empire utilised to punish. So Jesus, being on the cross, was punished. If the “penal” in “PSA” were not correct, then Jesus could’ve died in many different ways – he could’ve had a heart attack, had a fatal accident, been murdered – and that would have achieved atonement with the penal bit. But Jesus was killed on the cross in a way that exhibited punishment.
And thirdly there is Isaiah 53.
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I’m glad to hear you believe that, Neil. So your fellow believer non-Calvinist friends are not wrong after all?
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It only shows that the god (small ‘g’ intentional) conjured up by them, truly is a monster.
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The first fundamental and prerequisite to all others: “God is love” (1 John 4:8). May that be demonstrated in all our lives, regardless of our theological flavor.
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I would agree that Limited Atonement is the weakest part of TULIP. I still believe in it because it fits the idea that only the predestined are saved, and the sins of the saved are dealt with in the atonement. So the two are brought together by theologians.
At a textual level, though, Predestination is clearly taught, and the Atonement is clearly taught. But the two ideas don’t ever appear in the same text. Predestination is never explicitly linked to the Atonement, and vice versa.
There are alternatives to “Limited Atonement”. “Limited Repentance”, “Limited Faith”, “Limited Grace”, “Limited Forgiveness”, “Limited Justification” and so on, with the “Limited” part clearly referring to the idea that there are only some people who experience this, while many more do not.
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No, they ARE wrong. Hopefully God can use the Holy Spirit to change their minds. But their incorrect views do not disqualify them being Christian.
I mean, seriously, Christians often sit down and discuss theology with one another, and sometimes a person will change their mind on an issue. This has happened to me many times throughout my life – God using others to challenge my assumptions and to bring me into a better understanding.
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Just for clarity everyone, Reformed Theology is not solely TULIP. The moniker is used because of historical accident, and people like Calvin didn’t limit their teaching to it.
Good summaries of Reformed belief have been created by churches centuries ago after the Reformation. These are the confessions. So Westminster Confession of Faith (Scottish and English Presbyterian), the three forms of unity – Belgic Confession, the Canons of Dort, and the Heidelberg Catechism (Continental Reformed) and the 1689 Baptist confession of faith. These are the documents that should be consulted about Reformed Theology, not just TULIP.
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Muff, if, as you say, you believe the Apostle’s Creed, then you must believe that Jesus went to Hell, and that you also believe in the forgiveness of sins. The two are linked. By dying on the cross and going to hell, Jesus creates the means by which forgiveness is gained.
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” – 1 Peter 3.18
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Neil Cameron,
“What I have personally experienced from TULIP, and thus experienced by accepting the Biblical truths it summarises, is that “God has me”…… assurance….”
++++++++++++++++
those are good things.
i think generally-speaking most christians would say they have the same experience. no TULIP required.
i reckon all theological systems have both elements that build people up
[from the inherent good truth in the bible and the stuff of God],
and elements which mess them up (and certainly harm people other than themselves)
[from seeing through a glass dimly, and from how religion plays on the human potential for cruelty & self-centeredness]
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You’d be surprised how many don’t.
I’ve identified three different experiences a person can have with assurance.
The first is the Christian who relies upon his/her good works as evidence of salvation. This sort of Christian is constantly fearful that his life isn’t perfect. They wonder how much works they need to please God. They live in constant fear that they are not “good enough”.
The second is the Christian who believes they are saved because God approves of them. This sort of Christian has a superior attitude towards other Christians. When such a Christian sins, they ignore it and say that they have been forgiven anyway. This breeds superiority in their attitude towards others, and they feel less compassion for those who suffer or undergo trials.
The third is the Christian who is grateful. They know they are not saved by their works, but by their faith. But they hate their sin and want to please God, not in order to BE saved, but because they ARE saved. They view others as sinners just like them, they feel compassion for those who suffer. They are motivated to share the Gospel with unbelievers because of the amazing effect that the Holy Spirit, working through the Gospel and the Word, has had upon their lives.
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Neil Cameron,
That third category includes ALL who know Jesus, regardless of theological flavor.
“Salvation comes to the soul that comes to salvation. Forgiving Savior and penitent sinner meet.” (O.C.S. Wallace)
Praise God! From every tongue, tribe and nation they meet!
“The angel said to them, ‘Don’t be afraid, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be to all people'” (Luke 2:10)
Merry Christmas, Neil!
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One thing I’ve discovered here and elsewhere in my long Christian journey is that there are as many flavors of “reformed” as there are Baskin-Robbins ice cream.
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This is absolutely true.
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the major influence of Reformed theology in North America is Baptist in nature. So people like John Macarthur, who is Dispensational and Premillennial, come into conflict with Reformed believers who are pedobaptists, who embrace covenant theology, and are Amil in eschatology.
Here are some “flavours” of Calvinism.
“Hyper-Calvinists”. These churches believe in reprobation. They do not believe in common grace. Their argument is that a Christian cannot say to unbelievers that God loves them and wants them to be saved, as such a belief assumes that God will save them. This opposition to the “Free Offer of the gospel” greatly inhibits their evangelism.
Psalm-only acapella praise. These churches will not sing any hymns or songs, ancient or modern. They will only ever sing psalms. And because instruments are not mentioned in New Testament worship, only acapella singing is practiced. My view is that public worship singing should include at least one psalm, and that instruments can be used (the word “Psalm” literally means the twanging of a string).
Church Government. All forms of church government exist within Reformed theology. The congregational model in Baptist churches; the parliament of elders in the Presbyterian system; the role of Bishops in the episcopal system. I think the Parliament system (a session of elders) is the most biblical of all three.
Sacraments or Ordinances. This, again, is something expressed through the Baptist model. The argument is over the Lord’s Supper and Baptism. Those who view it as an ordinance view Baptism and the Lord’s Supper as commands of God that the church follows, which are symbols of what God has done for us, but are no more than symbols. Those who view them as a sacrament add the idea that these activities actually convey a spiritual blessing upon those who partake them.
Sabbatarianism. This is the idea that Sunday, the Lord’s Day, is the Christian Sabbath that Christians should follow. There are many Reformed Christians who are not sabbatarians.
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Neil Cameron,
Whew! Jesus probably has a lot of trouble trying to squeeze in crosswise in all those reformed groups!
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And more:
the place of Israel: Dispensationalism vs Covenant Theology. Some Reformed leaders are Dispensational, such as John Macarthur. They teach that the national and ethnic entity of Israel is different to the church, and God has separate plans for each. Covenant theologians, however, argue that Israel and the Church are the same entity, with Israel being the Old Testament version of the church in the New Testament. You may have heard of “Replacement Theology”, which is sort of what it entails. I contend, however, that the church doesn’t replace Israel: the Church IS Israel.
Spirituality: There is a divide between many Christians across all denominations and non-denominational churches about individual spirituality. “Mystical Spirituality” is practiced by those Christians who seek to enter in to a personal experience of God through things like silence, meditation, word repetition and son on. Such people see prayer as dialogue with God. Those who have a “Responsive Spirituality” do not seek mystical experiences, and do not view prayer as a dialogue. Prayer is seen solely as our words to God, with God speaking to us in his Word. Reformed Christians are divided on this issue.
Education. Some Christians are happy to send their children to government run schools. Other Christians send their children to Christian schools. And some Christians homeschool their children. These same divides occur in Reformed Churches.
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And even more…
The Homogeneous group vs the Heterogeneous group. This is one of the effects of the church growth movement in the 1970s, the idea being that churches are better served having meetings for homogeneous groups. Thus you have a church service for retired people, you have a church service for families who have young kids, you have a church service for young adults, you have a church service for Chinese people, you have a church service for university and college students. And do on. Heterogeneous group advocates argue that breaking the church into homogeneous groups is bad for unity, and that church services should actually reflect the differences of the local community that the church is within.
Big vs Small. Many Reformed Christians took on the influence of Bill Hybels and embraced the megachurch model, creating churches of thousands of people employing lots of staff. Other Reformed Christians embrace the smaller church model, and, while they seek to grow the church, they are more likely to split the church into separate entities (like a church plant seeded from a larger church) once attendance reaches a certain point (usually between 100-200 people).
Event evangelism vs personal evangelism. Proponents of the first model will have regular evangelistic meetings for their members to invite their unbelieving friends, family, neighbours and work colleagues to. The latter model does not have special evangelistic meetings, but trains and encourages church members in personal evangelism. These churches still have gospel preaching within their church services, so unbelievers who do visit church can hear the gospel.
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Max,
Actually I do not celebrate Christmas. It is a pagan festival, and people who celebrate Christmas cannot be believers.
JUST KIDDING!
Merry Christmas to you too Max!
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By the way, if anyone wants to hear my preaching and see what I look like. Go here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH27Ifln3TY
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Romans 8:29 speaks of being predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. Ephesians 1:5 is about being predestined to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, while verse 11 and 12 say we are predestined for the praise of his glory. Keep going to Ephesians 2:12 and the idea of being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world is unsupported by the sequence of events that Paul describes here. Predestination isn’t about being chosen to be saved. It’s about what God has planned for those who are already saved.
Spiritual death isn’t the same as physical death. There are numerous appeals throughout scripture for people to turn back to God in obedience. Where is the mention of having to be regenerated first in order to have the faith to believe? Where is being elect given as a basis for that process?
The elect are those God chooses to achieve his purpose. People are elected to service.
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Ephesians 1.4 “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him”
The idea of being holy and blameless, the idea of being adopted as sons… all of those things are included in salvation. If God has chosen me to be blameless from the beginning of the world, then God has chosen me to be saved before I ever repented of sins and placed my faith in Christ.
I’ve just looked up a sermon I preached on Ephesians 1 where I look at this – the idea that God has predestined these things for the church, but not for the individual:
————
So the church as a whole is predestined, but you aren’t.
The church as a whole is forgiven, but maybe you’re not.
The church as a whole is adopted, but maybe you aren’t.
The church as a whole is redeemed, but maybe you aren’t.
And the church has been blessed with the Holy Spirit, but maybe you haven’t been.
In short, it doesn’t make sense.
There’s no doubt that God did have in mind the body of the church when he saved us,
but he also had in mind us as individuals.
————-
“Where is the mention of having to be regenerated first in order to have the faith to believe? ”
Ephesians 2.4-5
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.
Even when we were dead, God has made us alive. And the person of the Godhead who does this is the Holy Spirit.
Monergism is hard to get your mind around. When I became a Christian, I prayed a prayer of commitment to God. I turned from my life of sin, I told God that I would serve him, and I trusted in Christ’s death for my forgiveness. And so I became a Christian. This is how I became a Christian from my own point of view.
From God’s point of view, God had determined from before the beginning of time that I should be saved. My name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (Revelation 17.8). And so God organised my life so that I would hear the Gospel of Christ at certain points. And so one day God sent his Spirit upon me, regenerating me from spiritual death to spiritual life, which, in turn, led me to repent of my sins and turn to Christ in faith.
So from my point of view, I accepted the Gospel, I did something that led to my conversion. But from God’s point of view, he was the one who ultimately saved me.
There’s an illustration that explains this:
There are people who think that becoming a Christian can be compared to a person floundering in the ocean, about to drown. Then Jesus comes along in a boat and offers them his hand. The person grabs Jesus’ hand, is lifted out of the raging sea, and is saved.
But that’s NOT how it is. You’re not floundering in the ocean. You’re at the bottom of the sea. You’re dead, drowned. If someone went down to you and offered to save you if only you would grab his hand, you would be unable to do so because you are dead. So what happens at conversion? Jesus goes down to the bottom of the sea, picks up your lifeless body, brings it back onto the boat, and HE MAKES YOU ALIVE.
Think about the Valley or dry bones in Ezekiel 37. Do the skeletons ask God to save them? No. They are dead. They cannot save themselves. But then the prophet Ezekiel watches as the Holy Spirit enters into these bones and turns them alive. God speaks through Ezekiel, the Holy Spirit uses God’s words through Ezekiel, and the dead are brought to life.
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Arlo,
Arlo,
This has been a 500-year debate. We are not going to settle it here. Debating is not preaching the Gospel. We are just throwing jots and tittles back and forth. All I know is that my personal encounter and ongoing relationship with Christ is not open to the argument of others.
Wishing you the best as you share Jesus in Kenya. There’s room at the Cross for more.
Merry Christmas!
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Neil Cameron,
Once more, you were not chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. You would have to explain how you managed to be “in him” before time began. In Romans 16:7 Paul speaks of Andronicus and Junia being “in Christ” before he was. We only become in him while here on earth, not before. Also, I already pointed out Ephesians 2:12 where Paul says that his audience was “without hope and without God in the world”. How anyone supposedly elected for salvation before the foundation of the world manages to then end up without hope or God, while in the world, must a far taller tale than I’d care to indulge in.
Again, spiritual death and physical death are not the same thing. So your reference to Ezekiel doesn’t support your stance.
God initiating salvation in Ephesians 2:5 is not the same as your idea of regeneration preceding faith. You’re conflating different ideas and drawing conclusions from someplace other than the passages you have right in front of you. And no, Monergism isn’t difficult to understand.
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By golly, Calvinists use way more words than Christ. Calvin certainly did as well. Take a breath. Enjoy creation. Be at peace. Let God worry about others’ salvation. He’ll do a much better job than ANY theology.
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I’m not trying to resolve the debate. I’m only hoping that we would embody all that Christ means for us to be (Ephesians 4:13-16)
Thanks and a Merry Christmas to you too, Max!
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Max,
🙂
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Well said.
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Reformed theology prefers to think of the essence of Christianity as doctrines ‘about’ grace rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. I suppose accepting rigid doctrines about election and believing you are chosen is more assuring of one’s salvation than to be chosen by exercising free will to accept Christ and be elected by Him in that moment. I guess I’m just not smart enough to be a Calvinist … repenting of my sins, believing in Jesus, and coming to Him through the Cross didn’t require me to strain the few brain cells I have … I became a Christian through faith by Grace in the 20th century rather than before the foundation of the earth.
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Well, that leaves out us Lutherans. I shall go on being a joyful Christian anyhoo.
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Not a Baptist? What?
Preparing for Baptism, author: Mez McConnell
https://store.thegospelcoalition.org/product/9781912373161/preparing-for-baptism-paperback
Book Summary
“Being baptised as a believer is a very significant event. So it is vital that the meaning of baptism is clearly understood and the kind of life that baptism commits us to is properly appreciated. Preparing for Baptism: A Personal Diary is designed to help those preparing for baptism to approach their baptism with understanding and commitment.”
Get it right, Neil.
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I agree that faith and belief should be simple, like that of a child.
But becoming a Christian through faith by Grace does not contradict being predestined. It’s not as though predestination is a different way to be saved than having faith in Christ through Grace. They are both correct.
I became a Christian in 1982 – I placed my faith in Christ. All very simple. But I was also predestined from the foundation of the earth. The latter is the complex answer to what we experience simply.
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I apologise. I attempted to say this earlier but the text didn’t get quoted. After a cursory examination of McConnell’s church website, I couldn’t find anything that indicated it was a Baptist church, and so I felt I couldn’t include him as a baptist. Thanks to those on this forum, I have been shown to be incorrect. Thank you all.
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That’s good to hear, Dee.
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I can sort of understand where you’re coming from. The complexity of some theology does create the impression that it is too intellectual. This can be true of Calvinism, and it can also be true in other theological systems.
I certainly believe in the simplicity of the Gospel and the fact that our faith in Christ is like that of a child. However questions naturally arise from that simple attitude, and so there needs to be a further depth in understanding.
I remember once, when I was young, talking to a guy who was in his first year of theological training. I said to him that I was jealous of all the new things he was learning. He then said that he wasn’t learning anything new, he was just learning what he already knew at a greater depth.
I mean take gravity. We experience gravity all the time. We deal with gravity unconsciously. In a sense, understanding gravity is simple. But when you go deeper, there’s all sorts of mathematical equations involved which shows that a thing simply experienced has a lot of stuff behind it. It’s the same with salvation. We are saved by faith through Grace; Jesus died on the cross for our sins and his resurrection is the promise of new life we have in the future. But dig underneath those simple beliefs and you find a lot of complexity.
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My name, and yours, have been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13.8 and 17.8
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Neil Cameron,
I’m sticking with the simplicity that Jesus displayed with his life and words — not what Calvin had to say. Calvinism did nothing but lead many I know to depression and hopelessness.
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At the risk of breaking the “No True Scotsman” rule, I would contend that those you know who have negatively been affected by Calvinism were not truly affected by Calvinism.
The Reformed doctrines that I hold to have done nothing but strengthen my Christian life. And there are many I personally know whose Christian life has been strengthened through it too. These people are humble, gracious and grateful individuals who have found solace in the Biblical doctrines that Calvin summarised.
Of course, individual Calvinists can do bad things in the name of Calvinism. And there are Calvinist churches out there that do bad things in the name of Calvinism. And I’ve seen these churches and people.
At present there are many abusers being exposed in the church. TWW and Dee are here to expose them, no matter whether they are Calvinists or not. But we all know, hopefully, that Christianity itself has been distorted and damaged by these evil people and churches. And yet despite this, Dee and many people here are capable of criticising these abusers within the church without giving up on Christianity entirely.
This same attitude should apply to Calvinism. Just as Christianity generally has been poorly served over the years, so too has the Calvinist part of Christianity.
So don’t make a judgment hastily, based upon firsthand anecdotal evidence. In my own life, I have been subjected to abuse and pain from the Charismatic side of Christianity. But I know for certain that these experiences don’t define the whole, and just as I was disgusted at some of these Charismatic beliefs and actions, so too are there Charismatics who agree with me.
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Neil:
I have to give you credit. You have done an excellent job of hijacking this post!
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I know that Calvinism is a bit radioactive here at TWW, but I wanted to give people a chance to communicate with a real Calvinist rather than the standard “Calvos are evil” opinion that some people have.
And like a lot of places on the internet, the discussions are often US-centric and don’t take into account the situation in the wider world.
I do appreciate the work that Dee and others do here in exposing church abuse, mainly because I suffered some career destroying abuse as a teacher in a Christian School.
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Neil–I appreciate your irenic spirit and also what you have to say. Agree or disagree with Calvin, calvinism is not the problem. Abuse and sin are the problems.
And I think maybe you would agree that much of what passes as reformed or calvinistic today is actually not at all historic reformed or calvinistic teaching, just as much that passes as Lutheran today deviates wildly from the teachings of Luther himself. Much of Wesleyan arminianism is neither true to the teachings of Wesley, nor to arminian theology in general.
Peace!
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Neil Cameron,
There’s something here that you’re not understanding, Neil. It has never been me or anyone else you encounter that needs to be convinced that your claims are true. It’s God’s Word that you’re ignoring and trying to repurpose, so he’s the one that you have to convince. You’ve so far failed to convince anyone here that their own knowledge and experience of God is erroneous, so good luck with that.
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tom parker,
To get back to the blog topic … this exchange reinforces why mainline (non-Calvinist) Christianity should be very concerned about CrossCon 2025 encouraging 1,000 arrogant I’m right / you’re wrong New Calvinists to be foreign missionaries!
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Indeed! TWW has recorded numerous examples. The “beauty of complementarity” has negatively affected countless female believers. Authoritarian patriarchy found in many reformed works is definitely a form of spiritual abuse … the 9Marks variety has proven to be extremely oppressive. Such rigid theological control of the pew manipulates, intimidates and dominates God’s children (these are not fruit of the Holy Spirit).
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Not “at the risk of.” You are intentionally stomping on a valid logical principle as if it doesn’t exist. Then you survey a small circle conveniently including yourself, express self-satisfaction, and deny the valid experiences of others who don’t fit your scheme. Where have we seen this before?
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tom parker,
That isn’t the case. Neo Calvinism (of the latest kind) was introduced by the author of the post and then Max and others trotted out their views which were/are entirely hostile to Calvinism.. some differentiation between the old school and the new is sometimes thrown in – old, respectful, friendly, new, arrogant. Neil Cameron answered respectfully and explained his views. Words were then put into his mouth, words that he never said and it is clear from what he says that he views those with different views as “brothers in Christ”. He even gave a reasonable explanation for his views.
As the Black-eyed Peas once sang “ Where is the love?” In the non Calvinist camp.?
The other point is that Presbyterians established missions in most parts of the globe and the free offer was loudly and faithfully proclaimed, even in the fledgling USA. They also fought for the abolition of slavery – a majority of Northern commanders were Presbyterian.
Those you call ‘Calvinistas’ are of a different sort and should be confronted at every opportunity, although I’m sure their star is waning. (Having said that, Mark Dever is heading to the Banner of Truth conference in Australia in January, and then to the UK in April. The topic is “ A Lifetime in the Ministry”).
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Neil Cameron,
This is my simple observation: You embody the spirit of the “Calvinist.” Your belief in the five points overshadows an understanding of the simple belief of a God who loved us so much that He sent His only Son and that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life. Neil, I do not believe in predestination, as you espoused it. Yet, I love God and follow Him as I expose the horrible abuses of the church.
Oddly, you seem comfortably separated from the pain that is being expressed.
You appear to love God so long as He is expressed within your paradigm. You appear to have come here to proclaim the beauty of five points instead of the beauty of God. Yes, I know. You claim they are one and the same. I don’t think they are. Remember, we will be in heaven with you, but I bet you are hoping God will correct our bad theology by then.
Think about how you can tone down the “Calvinista fighter” while you stand comfortably in your theology.
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Lack of empathy for others goes hand-in-hand with the arrogant characteristic of this expression of faith. We’ve seen this repeatedly in TWW reporting regarding the bad actors in New Calvinism – unloving and uncaring. Yet another reason why 90% of Christendom have rejected reformed theology for the last 500 years.
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Contrasted by Southern Baptist Calvinists during the Civil War, many who were slaveholders in the South. They believed that Sovereign God was on their side during the Civil War, until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years … until Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists started dragging the SBC back to its theological roots without asking millions of non-Calvinist SBC members if they wanted to go there!
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Sandy,
At the risk of breaking another ‘No true Scotsman rule’, no-one stomped on anything, Neil’s is not a small circle, and he did not express any self-satisfaction or deny the valid experiences of others who don’t fit his scheme. Where have we seen this distortion before?
Merry Christmas from a true Scotsman 🙂
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He almost persuaded us of that until he let loose with his I’m right / you’re wrong comments about non-Calvinist bad theology. Do Calvinists ‘really’ think that non-Calvinist believers are saved, that the expression of their faith is Truth and Life? Or did Al Mohler encapsulate the heart of the Reformed when he said:
“Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.”
There are no options?! Other expressions of Christianity do not preach and teach truth?!
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I sometimes wonder if that’s what we are dealing with … particularly in the New Calvinist movement … a spirit.
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Arlo,
“It has never been me or anyone else you encounter that needs to be convinced that your claims are true.”
+++++++++++++++++
well, i did ask to him to convince me of some things, and he responded.
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As Clive Lewis famously pointed out (“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive…”), there’s more than one way of attacking someone with whom we disagree. Obviously, the commonest on the interwebs is to throw vitriol and excrement at a person’s character – they disagree with me because they’re evil. Equally, however, one can deny a person’s dignity: they disagree with me because they’re simple and/or lack my proper education and training.
The seductive appeal of the second approach (and I’m sure there are many others besides, but two will do here) is that I can dismiss your input while still telling myself that I’m being “loving”. This is a lie. I’m full of love, certainly – for myself. Moreover, the fact that this is a lie will be obvious to any fool who’s watching me, certainly to you who are no fool, but completely invisible to me. This is baked into the idea that I’ll engage you in loving debate in order to persuade you lovingly and gently that I’m right and you’re wrong.
Even as a system for curating knowledge, I find Calvin’s attempt odd, because of the way in which it resolves its inherent (and vast) contradictions by simply denying they exist. It really doesn’t look like a good way of dealing with the paradoxes inherent in human existence and boldly embraced in scripture. It does offer the prospect of being “right”; it’s not alone in that, of course. So did the theology of Charles Taze Russell some time later. I can’t pretend to have spoken at length to many servants of The Watchtower, but among those I have, the seductive belief that they had superior knowledge drove out any love they may have had before converting to russellism.
It seems to me that to the degree that I try to be Christ-like by being “right”, I end up being neither. I don’t know how much you and I could gain by debating one another’s doctrinal positions. What I certainly appreciate about you is that despite running into damaging abuse, you continued pursuing Christ. For which, respect.
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Max,
“I sometimes wonder if that’s what we are dealing with … particularly in the New Calvinist movement … a spirit.”
++++++++++++++++
the way i see it, most religions can bring out the best in people,s and just as easily bring out the worst.
for whatever stupid reason, christianity (which is what people have made of the memory & recorded words and deeds of Jesus of Nazareth) is especially well-suited to activating the human potential for arrogance and cruelty. With plenty of self-congratulations for behaving as such.
religions are convoluted human-made systems based on ideas about truths-on-a-continuum. christianity is no exception.
i try to keep my faith with as few ingredients & treatments as possible.
just like cooking (so their own good flavors don’t get lost and covered up with unnecessary other stuff and over-working the technique)
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No, you are not breaking True Scotsman here.
You are serving up denial and gaslighting pretty well.
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“You just have to have a simple faith.” (Jimmy Carter)
Jesus had this to say about simple, childlike faith: “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matthew 18:3)
If we get too immersed in jots and tittles of complex theology, we might miss God altogether. I figure there will be lots of folks in heaven who kept their faith “with as few ingredients & treatments as possible.” We had a friend who died earlier this year who ministered to poor families in the area for 40 years – she often said “Help somebody today” (the family inscribed that on a bench by her tombstone). She had a simple faith with a love for Jesus and others. She had no desire to debate theology – she had more important things to do.
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And at least some of the Southern generals were also Presbyterian (Stonewall Jackson, for instance, was a devout Presbyterian convert). The Presbyterians like so many US denominations split over the Civil War. I also know that one of my Presbyterian ancestors was a slave owner (he ceased only because he chose the losing side in the American Revolution, his slaves were seized by the victors, and he moved back to Scotland where slavery was not allowed); one of his Presbyterian descendants moved to the US in the 1850s and volunteered for the Confederate Army (starting as a private [he was not a US citizen at the time] and ending as a major). https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/how-secession-and-war-divided-american-presbyterianism/ has some info on the Presbyterian split.
Spinning nearer to the topic; To quote a character in a British novel:
“There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
Slavery is treating people as things. Considering the institution’s reputation as more important than the well-being of people abused by one of the institution’s leaders is treating people as things.
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Personally, I prefer Calvin & Hobbes…
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I disagree. If you’re going to have an honest discussion on Christian trends then this discussion on Calvinism fits. I’ve read all the points of view with interest.
If someone doesn’t dissent, then this place becomes an echo chamber.
I get that some topics veer into poor taste and need to be pulled back, like the clown who discussed how god doesn’t really have an issue with slavery, but having a different opinion is not hijacking the post.
“Hijacking the post” seems to be becoming a “shut down” phrase when we hear something we don’t like.
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What I don’t get is why Piper would share a platform with Platt. I know Piper. I’ve said it before. I am not trying to name drop. I am just setting the stage for waht I say. I know most of you despise him. He is consistent with what he says and teaches. Platt, not so much. I watched all of those exposes of Platt amd MBC. He needs to resign, go be a missioniary in a foreign cpuntry with no luxuries, and then maybe I will believe him. I read his book. He does not believe his book. He is very very wealthy. Piper is not. Piper has the lowest salary of anyone on Desirng God, has always given all of his book royalties away, lives in the hood, helpos street people, does his best to actually live what he preaches. I want to ask him why he doesn’t see the inconsistencies of Platt. I will ask him if I remember. Go ahead, rip me a new one. I’m 61. I became a believer at 20 on a State University camnpus. It has been a journey. I appreacite Dee. I’ve corresponded with her and connect on X. I am not a Theo-bro, or whatever pother moniker you want to mock me with. I am trying to be consistent with the Bible that I read and the Hostoric orthodox Christian faith, although I am a Baptist.
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Sorry for all the spelling errors.
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Commenter Neil posted 35 or so times on this thread, most of these lengthy and one after another.
Most of the time he is talking about himself, and explaining his views. Preaching at us, more or less.
Most of the time he gaslights those who claim to have been harmed by Calvinism per se.
Many here have listened to Neil and gently pushed back.
“Shut down” is not what is happening, at all.
So yeah, let’s go with “hijacking.”
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Perhaps it’s because both are New Calvinist stars and darlings of subsets of the New Calvinist movement, so they share the stage in order to advance their overall cause?
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It wasn’t his posts that were the most interesting. It was the replies. I think the commenters here held their own. I thought it was an illustration of the differences in Christian thought. And the responses highlighted that yes, whatever stream of Christianity you believe you are still a “real” Christian.
One of the many reasons I pitched religion was being told I was not a “real” Christian so if someone cooks off about the superiority of their theology then the pushback proves that however you believe (or don’t), you are as valid as anyone else in this creation.
So if someone gets that message from the replies then let them post. As long as it’s not hateful or deeply offensive (looking at you slavery lover) then don’t close down the table.
It’s not a defense of Neil’s point of view but admiration of the many responses.
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You seem to be a thoughtful person who has invested a lot of time and effort in understanding your theology and your own experience. So of course you realize these are huge assumptions you’ve stated. And that others starting from different assumptions may arrive at other conclusions that are equally meaningful to them. You’ve had responses from several such people in this thread. So instead of being another person telling you how Calvinism leaves them cold, I’ll ask, “why?”
Why assume that a book of ancient stories, poetry, and letters was intended to provide logical proofs for a theological “theory of everything” to be developed thousands of years later?
Why do we need a theological “theory of everything” anyway? Why not allow that different people, in different times and places, need different experiences of God and faith, and get them?
Why is it spiritually beneficial for me to have a system to pigeonhole everything and everyone? Why isn’t it more beneficial to accept that humanity is more vast and diverse than I can grasp, and God and what They are doing in the world even more so?
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There are 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide. I suppose they all twisted “The” Book here and there to make it fit their pet theological theories. We need to be reading the Scriptures searching for Truth not to support a preconceived interpretation of it.
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CMT,
Thank you; I’ve been thinking of putting similar thoughts down.
I think there’s a lot to be said for trying to sympathetically understand belief systems that differ from one’s own. I’ve migrated through a number of these myself in the last 5 decades, and my present posture is “this, XYZ, is how things look to me, but I am keenly aware of the possibility that I may be mistaken.” To argue that others who don’t agree are enemies of the Creator (a stance I once took) now looks to me quite hubristic.
I’ve read that the ancient Hebrews were not preoccupied with theology; their concern was to live in keeping with YHWH’s law. NT Wright thinks that with the relaxation of the historic visible boundary markers of circumcision, Sabbath observance and food laws in order to welcome Gentiles into an enlarged People of God, new markers had to found to distinguish “who is part of our community” from “who is not”, and that Paul’s inauguration of the new intellectual enterprise of Christian theology came to serve this purpose. (IIRC, NTW develops this thesis in the first volume of his Paul and the Faithfulness of God .)
It worked historically, distinguishing Jesus-followers from both pagan Gentiles and non-Jesus-following Jews. But it seems that the process, once started, is very difficult to contain, and the end result is the vast diversity of views and confessions of the present.
I think that “epistemic humility” is a great virtue, in that it can help to preserve a posture of valuing most highly the goal of knowing Truth while avoiding the risk of defining a particular view to be Truth and then valuing that view most highly. Given the limitations of mortal embodiment, the realities of cognitive bias, the propensity to self-deceive, etc., etc., this kind of humility seems to me wise.
This isn’t to forbid convictions, but to appeal for the maintenance of stance of curiosity about the possibility that one may be mistaken, and a corresponding patience toward those who disagree (and who may, if one is mistaken, be the ones who are in the right).
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This is one way to look at it. For me personally, I don’t think of scripture reading as “a search for Truth” so much anymore. I think reading scripture is more about participating in a millennia-long ongoing conversation (sometimes argument!) about what it means for us to be the people of God here and now. Not my original idea, of course, and I know a lot of people don’t see it this way, but it’s helpful for me.
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Samuel Conner,
““epistemic humility” is a great virtue…to preserve a posture of valuing most highly the goal of knowing Truth while avoiding the risk of defining a particular view to be Truth and then valuing that view most highly.
Given the limitations of mortal embodiment, the realities of cognitive bias, the propensity to self-deceive, etc., etc., this kind of humility seems to me wise.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
yes, i feel the same.
aside from “God is” (father/son/hs), & God being gracious, kind, & just, the only tenet i hold on to as non negotiable is seeing each person as my neighbor and treating them the way i would want to be treated.
figuring out how everything else works out is like investing cumulative months/years in sorting out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
(really, the only thing perspicuous is that they’re dancing to Disco Inferno, Play That Funky Music, and Brick House)
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Thanks Jack, I really appreciate your clarification, and I agree.
Thanks CMT and Samuel for your nuanced and empathetic views in adjacent posts.
Then perhaps our friends here might allow me to express a heretical view that I’ve come around to, especially as I observe, over a lifetime, so many urgent prayers of the needy and abused go unanswered by God.
Given what I observe and what scripture actually claims:
God is real. And yet,
God is not omni. (An omni god is a Greek invention.)
God is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, nor even omnibenevolent.
Not even close, honestly.
He does what He can, which is not everything.
He is in some sense broken and constrained.
He is a lot like us.
Upon careful rereadings, it seems like He has fallen about the same time we did.
I think it was due to His anger, frustration, and self blame when he figured out that he dropped a few stitches when he knitted us. Then unreasonably blamed us for it.
I am inclined to forgive him, based on the efforts of His Son.
(Apologies for the sudden drop in blood pressure some people experience in response to this view. Symptoms appear to fade usually after about 10 minutes.)
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Samuel Conner,
Interest assesment.
I meet with a group of faculty from very diverse specialties, and if anything, it continues to remind me of the complexity of reality, and the limitations of human mind to truly understand it all. One of my colleuages is a Dallas theological Seminar and Harvard PhD. graduate and has taught for many years in a department on acient Near-Eastern countries and culture.. he specialty was Hebrew… (but knows at least 15 languages, including a number of dead ones) There is so much of traditional, orthodox Christainity that does not understand about the culture in which the Bible was written… I am just amazed, and humbled.. Before we read the Bible in with our 21 century culture, we need to try to BEGIN to understand the Hebrew culture leading up to the time of Christ.. I continue to be amazed about how many assumption traditional Christianity makes that are just that, assumptions, not TRUTH..
On a related note, if we think we understand physical reality, guess again.. Our current understanding of physics says we can NOT account for about 50% of the matter, and related, energy (i.e. the imfamous “dark matter”). Before some anti-science person goes off saying, “See, you scientist do not really know anything,” my common line is.. “If a hunk of Plutonium is sitting in the room, I am “out of there”… I have 100% faith in the probablistic theories that explain radation and nucelar bombs, just that even the basics of matter and the equations of reality are imcomplete…
So, what is my point?? If we can not even fully understand the culture the Bible was written, and where is 1/2 of the matter in the Universe, how in the H$## are we going to develop a theology that explains everything and G$d??
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Bob M,
Bob, I know you are correct about Piper’s simple lifestyle. I give him credit for that. What I cannot stomach was his showing up at Mahaney’s run-away church plant in Louisville and endorsing him, nor can I stomach his endorsement of Mark Driscoll’s theology, nor his statement that women should endure physical abuse from their husbands for a season. (And that’s just for starters – tell me those eyes of Piper aren’t the eyes of a crazy man.)
https://youtu.be/wYVCVx5QyFQ?si=qAfYX2L31cNy0w6o
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Todd Wilhelm,
seems to me $ is not everyone’s currency.
power, ego, need for attention, whatever it takes to sooth insecurities are currencies.
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Thank you, Max, for giving me the perfect opportunity to add the following link to the conversation. 🙂
I got the link (which I’ve just Internet Archived) from one of Dee’s tweets….the link is to a Baptist News Global post by Mark Wingfield, dated December 18, 2024, titled In three-hour interview, Mohler says he ‘hopes and prays’ Jimmy Carter is born again.
https://web.archive.org/web/20241221174125/https://baptistnews.com/article/in-three-hour-interview-mohler-says-he-hopes-and-prays-jimmy-carter-is-born-again/
The post points out what you’ve commented on many times, Max….about the stealth takeover by Mohler and his ilk.
Reading through the entire post provides evidence of Mohler’s arrogance and hypocrisy.
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This makes intuitive sense to me. Post-reformation, we’ve also got the Protestant awkwardness with how exactly group membership relates to salvation, and how both of them relate to “works.” Explicitly linking group membership to praxis makes us uncomfy, even though in reality we employ all sorts of cultural practices and shibboleths.
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https://slavery.princeton.edu/stories/presbyterians-and-slavery
“To the extent that abolitionism found a home in Presbyterianism, it did so chiefly in those sections of the church where the enthusiastic revival style of evangelist Charles G. Finney held sway—most notably in the so-called ‘Burned-over’ district of upstate New York and the Western Reserve of Ohio. Finney identified with an emerging New School party in the denomination. The New School advocates—originally New England Congregationalists transplanted to the Northwest and middle states—were open to innovations in theology and practice, more eager than other Presbyterians to engage in interdenominational cooperation, and more likely to espouse social reform.”
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I think this is a good way of describing my own journey, too. I’d add that, in addition, my concern is now much more towards being transformed than about getting information or even guidance. Easy to write, much harder to live out, of course.
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Nick Bulbeck,
CMT,
++++++++++++++++
agreed, me, too.
i just make God my business partner.
(in the business of life [ie, having patience, self-discipline, pursuing healthy relationships, decision-making, etc.], and in my actual business).
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Yes, it’s more of being “led” to truth rather than a “search” for it.
“When He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all Truth” (John 16:13).
The Holy Spirit is a better teacher than any theologian who has ever lived!
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Piper has been called the “Father of New Calvinism” … Platt was one of the first “sons” of the movement … they’ve appeared on several stages together in the past … I recall an interview Piper had with Platt early on where they appeared to be on the same page regarding the “new reformation” … perhaps there is/was a father/son connection between them before radical became too radical?
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Angels dancing on the head of a pin?
I vote for Disco Inferno.
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elastigirl,
Angles dancing to disco inferno/brick house…. Now, that is quite a thought…..
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Interesting that a post pointing out that missions has become more of a business than ministry was hijacked by someone who probably is a missionary. (I’m basing this on Neil’s description of his ministry.)
I’d like to refocus back in missions as a business—if not here, then in another thread. I know because I live in a missions organization town, that missions is indeed a big business, one that’s very lucrative to the top tier and to those who use missions money to achieve ex-Pat status in a country where they run a for-profit gig on the side or as part of their 501c3 covering.
I’m very much not anti-missions, but I am anti-profiteering off missions.
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Overcomer,
“…missions is indeed a big business, one that’s very lucrative to the top tier and to those who use missions money to achieve ex-Pat status in a country where they run a for-profit gig on the side or as part of their 501c3 covering.
I’m very much not anti-missions, but I am anti-profiteering off missions.”
+++++++++++++++++
i would also be interested.
my grandparents were career missionaries. a legacy of pain that is passed down.
i’m not sure profiteering off it was a thing in 1930’s-1960’s (maybe it was, in some way), but ‘the ends justifies the means’ as the functional mission certainly was.
Children were collateral damage, resulting in destroyed human beings on legs, doing the best they can with the damage caused.
seems the common theme is ‘the ends justifies the means’ (as with much of christian church culture)
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It’s something that I’ve wondered about and would like to explore further. We have a fair amount of missionaries in my city who live pretty comfortable lives and reside in upmarket neighbourhoods. While the cost of living here is certainly much lower than in the west, it’s an area that I’d like to be better informed about. I understand that your comment about missions being seen as a business isn’t necessarily what I’ve touched on.
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elastigirl,
The “ends justifying the means”, where believers are concerned, is a very perplexing notion.
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My wife is from overseas and raised in a Pentecostal tradition.
In their area there’s a mix of ethnicities. On her mom’s side they were RC, on her dad’s side chinese Muslim/Buddhist (grandmother Muslim, grandfather Buddhist)
They had a lot of American missionaries visit, ostensibly to spread the gospel but in reality generally a bit of a pain. They never ventured beyond the local Christian congregation and could be a bit of a pain.
One couple took pics of a church service claiming these were the people they had “saved”, a ywam girl had to be convinced that riding on the hood of a jeep in her bikini was not a good idea.
Not sure how helpful they were but they certainly stayed away from the Muslim neighborhoods.
I’m not sure how effective missions are. There seem to be less Christians.
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Jack,
Is your wife from the Philippines?
The mix of ethnicities and religions “in the area” would fit the Philippine archipelago – majority RCC, Pentecostal and other “Evangelicos”, Moros (Muslims) from Mindanao in the South, and Buddhist “spillover” from mainland Asia.
American Missionary Tourism punching their “Convert the Little Brown Brothers away from Rome” tickets usually means “Not in a First World Country”; Third World Missionaries was always a prestige thing on your Christian resume. Said Missionary Tourists being careful to avoid the Moros to minimize personal risk (like that “Underground church in Dubai” shtick from several years ago).
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I’m partial to tunes from Oingo Boingo or Blue Oyster Cult.
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Professor John Walton at Wheaton says it well, “The Bible was NOT written TO us, but it WAS written FOR us.”
Culture, language, cosmic geography, world view, and sooooo much more are totally “other” when it comes to modern 21st century Westerners, and Ancient Near Eastern people.
Much of the Bible, including many of Jesus’s teachings and the words of the Hebrew prophets, should be treated as “wisdom literature” — things to be “chewed over” again and again.
(Proverbs 26:4-5 is a great example of the genre: “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. [v.4]; “Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.” [v.5] NIV)
Well, WHICH is it?!
Exactly! Meditate on this!!
Jesus’s teachings in The Beatitudes serve that purpose also… Chew on this: “You’re living the good life when your life situation is marked by grief and pain, because you will be comforted.”
Huh?
It’s the “upside down Kingdom” at work!
After studying Calvinism and Arminianism at the graduate theological level, I can safely say that NEITHER answers all the questions or solves every antinomy or paradox.
God IS more sovereign and powerful than the most hyper-5 point Calvinist could imagine in their wildest theological musings; He is also MORE compassionate, merciful, loving, and GRACE-FILLED than an Arminian picture can capture.
EVERY theological “system” is inherently reductionist (otherwise we would know as God knows). Every “system” (only fallen humans, even those regenerated by the life of the Age to come, could try and fit the Almighty into a human-devised “system”) is flawed.
No caps (as the kids say)!!!
Here’s the bottom line, at least as far as Jesus seems to be interested in such things: what is the system producing?
After all, “Every tree is known by its fruit.”
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BTW, that Matt Redmond post is straight fire!!!
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Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. God speaks much about the free will of man. God’s plan of salvation works in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To attempt to put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.
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Yes. From the southern island of Mindanao.
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Max,
“Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. God speaks much about the free will of man.”
Indeed, Max. That’s one of those “antinomies” (goes against the “laws” of HUMAN reason) that we have to live with if we are going to allow God to be God.
Appreciate your wisdom, Max.
Merry Christmas!
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And once more the topic of missions gets derailed by theology. Hmm.
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To which my response has been
“YES, IT’S A PARADOX. PARADOXES EXIST. DEAL WITH IT.”
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That would explain the Moro (Muslim) presence.
b/g: Mindanao was the “high water mark” of Islam in eastern Asia, probably spreading north from the East Indies (what’s now Indonesia). Moros (Mindanao Muslims) always had a reputation for aggression; first the Spanish then the Americans and now Manila always had a hard time with them.
It’s probably worse now if Wahabist extremism (backed by Saudi oil money) has spread to there; Wahabi are sort of the Hyper-Calvinists of Islam (Young, Restless, and More Refoemd Than Tnou). al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Daesh (ISIS/ISIL) are Wahabi Dominionists/Reconstructionists and have taken the prize for “Most Aggressive/Destructive form of Islam” away from the Ayatollahs of Iran.
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You haven’t attended panels at Sci-Fi conventions.
Such “Panel Hijackings” are fairly commonplace.
A big-name author from San Diego named David Brin used to be locally famous for pulling walk-in panel hijackings at San Diego-area cons.
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I dunno, can we talk about the inherent colonialism that was/is involved with missionary work? You know, where local/indigenous music and worship get swamped by the missionary’s need to bring in the music and worship they’re comfortable with? Or even just clothing? Where the missionaries influence the indigenous populations in what they wear to church? There’s so much more, I am no expert, but my opinion of missionizing is not positive.
And yeah, there are more than a few people who have decided missionizing is a way to live more than comfortably in a foreign country while “working to convert the heathen” who may just be attending church in a denomination the missionaries disapprove of.
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Neil Cameron,
There are different so called “calvinisms” and different “reformed” christianities. The five point so called “tulip” deals unclearly with a minute fraction of issues.
Some of the regular Wartburgers are careless (and ultra boring) in their shallow counter slogans and should be ignored, NOT copied.
Lack of Holy Spirit belief in all denominations (including by fake charismatics and fake anti fake charismatics) (muscular christianity = strongarming = works of the flesh) burns everyone out from the highest to the lowest, including crossover YWAM-Church of England casualties I knew.
Our parish was so bizarre, if they had turned up in bikinis it would have calmed things down!
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
My acquaintances, elders in a relatively unreliable denomination here, said they were horrified that their partners in a poor village on another continent were obviously convinced sacred music requires expensive and powerful amplifiying equipment.
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I refer you to the multigenerational historical novel Hawaii by James Michener, the part early in the book where Calvinist missionaries from Massachusetts are sent to “Owhyhee”. And to live (and try to make the Polynesians live) as if they were still in New England’s climate.
Not that different from converts to Islam having to adopt the whole package of Arab tribal culture – names, attitudes, and all.
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Somebody should have told that to Hal Lindsay and the Rapture Ready crowd some 60 years ago.
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researcher,
Name dropper.
Name dropper.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The Dubai diaspora obtained prominence in my neighbourhood and their combination of boastfulness and obfuscation reminded me of another bunch I also used to mix with.
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Headless Unicorn Guy, : Hal Lindsay
That false teaching screwed me up for about 10 years … hippies flying Apache attack copters and literal blood to horses’ bridles in Har Meggido. Yet ol’ Hal raked in his millions while selling this unbiblical bullstuff.
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I’ve been to Mindanao 8 times in the last 20 years. There’s troublesome areas where safety is a concern but we’ve never had any issues. But we’ve got extended family in our area so we’re in the know on where to go.
The problem with most missionaries that visit the area is they don’t venture beyond the local Christian congregations. They don’t know the language or culture.
As for wahabi influence, not so much in the eastern part of Mindanao. The most problematic insurgency has been the communist New Peoples Army but support has declined in recent years. Areas where they were prominent have opened to tourists and the beaches are stunning.
In the Western part, MILF and MNLF have been mostly integrated into the AFP however there was significant battle in Marawi involving the Abu Sayyaf and associated foreign fighters but they got beaten bad.
That being said most people keep to their own religion, the markets are very mixed and in many cases you’ll only identify a Muslim family by language or what they eat.
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Not to mention just plain stoopid.
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You are far from the only one.
And once you go down Hal’s rabbit hole, some of the damage will be permanent.