A bright binary star, R Aquarii, surrounded by a colorful nebula on the black background of space. Credit: NASA, ESA, Matthias Stute , Margarita Karovska , Davide De Martin (ESA/Hubble), Mahdi Zamani (ESA/Hubble
“PIPPIN: I didn’t think it would end this way.
GANDALF: End? No, the journey doesn’t end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.
PIPPIN: What? Gandalf? See what?
GANDALF: White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
PIPPIN: Well, that isn’t so bad.
GANDALF: No. No, it isn’t.”
Today was a sad day for me. Two dear friends, diagnosed with terminal illnesses in the last month, decided to enter an at-home Hospice program. They both called me today, back to back. Both hold a deep faith and made this decision based on their faith, their discussions with medical professionals, and the help of family and friends. It was hard for me to hear. One I have known for 23 years. The other was a man who welcomed me to my Lutheran church and was a source of kindness, humor, and his Christmas coffee cake. I always had difficulty making a cross from the palms on Palm Sunday. He would make one for me; last year’s cross is still on my mantle. I think it will stay there for quite a while. Please pray for the peace that passes all understanding as these two saints prepare to meet their Savior face to face. I imagine He will say, “Well done, friends.”
I have hinted that I am involved in something I can’t share yet. However, TWW will be the first to know what is going on. In the meantime, how would you summarize what we and I do at TWW? I am listing some things I think about. Am I missing something?
TWW is a community.
I have been thinking a lot about TWW. As I started to list the first item that came to mind, I realized it involves something quite different from other websites. Friendships and relationships have been formed within the community. I thought about it when I started the blog. I planned to reach out to the internet and hoped to find others to help me understand what happened at my former SBC church. I was shocked, dismayed, and found my faith deeply challenged when I watched Christian leaders blame a small group of us for lying, slandering, etc. I thought this might be unusual, but somehow, I felt that others had experienced it.
I quickly found I was not alone as commenters described distressing experiences within the church community. Throughout the years, I have watched as commenters encouraged one another. I’ve been asked to help folks connect, which I do gladly.
I have spoken with many, commiserating, encouraging, and praying. I met Todd when he wrote to TWW in my early days. A friendship was born even though we had seen each other for less than an hour. I plan to change that this February when I travel to Scottsdale with my husband for his conference.
Some disagree with my writings. Some do an excellent job teaching me to consider a different approach to the faith. Some have suggested that faith in Jesus is a bogus proposition. They have not been successful, but they encourage me to think.
You have become my community, and it has been a blessing.
TWW is committed to exposing and eradicating abuse in the church.
After all, this all started when an SBC seminary student molested a bunch of young teen boys in my former SBC church. I had no idea of the depth and breadth of the abuse problem in the church when I started. I fear I might not have started if I knew how bad it was. No, the problem wasn’t limited to the Catholic church. It is present in all denominations and parachurch ministries, as well as non-religious groups like the Boy Scouts, youth sports, and teachers in all types of schools.
Today, Todd and I sit on many stories until we can write about them. It’s a jungle out there. I often wonder why church members ignore our Lord’s warnings. They think their pastors “wouldn’t or couldn’t do bad things.”
Mattew 7:15 NIV 5 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
TWW believes there is such a thing as spiritual abuse and writes about it regularly.
Sojourners define spiritual abuse as :
Spiritual abuse is “a distortion and exploitation of spiritual authority to manipulate, control, use, or harm others, mostly through shame and fear,” Chen told me in January 2023 during our conversation for Sojourners’ Lead Us Not podcast. “It’s using vulnerability — it’s using really good things to exploit.”
Later, via email, Chen told me that warning signs of spiritual abuse include intolerance for questions and doubts, using the Bible to arouse fear and rigid “us vs. them” binaries, and leaders who demand unwavering loyalty, often threatening anyone who doesn’t comply with being cut off from the community or God. Spiritual abuse can also look like a leader who offers above-and-beyond care, but in ways that cross ethical, emotional, or spiritual boundaries.
This type of trauma, Chen wrote, often leaves victims “with traumatized bodies, disordered imagination, and broken relationships, making the path to healing all the more challenging but certainly not impossible.”
Much research has attempted to define and illuminate this problem. More research needs to be done. I think many comments discuss how church leaders have hurt people,
TWW writes about secondary issues often raised to primary importance by ignorant church leaders.
As many know, I am not a Young Earth Creationist and tip towards Theistic Evolution. There are people like the Duggars who stressed their daughters wore long, heavy skirts to help prevent lust in males. We watched how that worked out in their own family by Josh, who molested his sisters and ended up in prison for dealing with child pornography. Does it matter what one thinks about the End Times regarding the faith? It will happen, and as one church leader told me tongue in cheek, “We will adjust our doctrinal statement accordingly.”
TWW has sounded the alarm over the problems surrounding biblical counseling.
Some of those leaders in the movement have made statements such as “One cannot be schizophrenic and be a Christian.” Many don’t realize that counseling is not confidential and “sins” can be reported to one’s pastor.
TWW has looked at potential abuses by ministries and pastors.
Can we say “Mark Driscoll or CJ Mahaney?” How about Acts 29, Doug Wilson, Ravi Zacharias, Tullian Tchividjian, and Andy Savage?
TWW looks at loaded words.
“Forgiveness.” “Submission.” “Authority.”
I need to know what you think about TWW.
Am I overlooking anything? Do you disagree with anything I’ve said? I’m looking forward to your input. I assure you it will be looked at closely in the next few days.
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It is a community that supports, and sometimes challenges, each other by validating our thoughts/emotion when we “ have a little voice inside us telling us that “something is not right here””.
Unfortunately, many churches, and those in the church, will try to silence that “little voice”….
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I don’t disagree with anything you have said.
Whatever the “thing” is that’s in the offing, I wish TWW the best, and I feel confident that you will make decisions in good faith using your best judgment and the advice of people with good intentions and a lot of intelligence.
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I am essentially an outsider who reads TTW a few times a month and has posted a couple of times.
I view TTW as a place where people who have suffered abuse within the church have a voice. Many, if not all, of these people find themselves alone and isolated without the means or ability to communicate their stories and experiences effectively enough to cause change.
I feel that you and the other authors take these stories and put them into context, which often involves larger patterns of abuse and coverup, and communicate them to a large audience.
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Dee…you speak for children that have no voice and you bring evil to light. Plus, you love pugs. And we out here love you and thank the Lord for what you do. Shine on, sister.
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Daughters of Stan!
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Your work is more valuable than you realize.
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1. TWW provides advocacy. We are ever grateful.
2. TWW does investigative reporting, speaking the truth in love.
3. TWW exposes church monsters which churches cover up.
4. TWW demonstrates empathy for those harmed by toxic church cultures.
5. TWW voices frustrations with the church’s response to the violations of vulnerable people.
6. TWW provides empowerment for change. Knowledge is power.
7. TWW fosters important conversations about accountability and ethics within the church.
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TWW was a Godsend after our church went through an abuse situation.
I cannot tell you how much I have learned and been helped by TWW. And not just Dee, but all the commenters over the years.
This community has really opened up my eyes to things I would otherwise have missed and introduced me to things I would never have considered.
TWW is a huge blessing!
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TWW was a beacon of sanity when we were in the fog of spiritual abuse.
And yes, I think the community aspect is something that makes TWW unique to other advocacy sites.
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Sorry to hear about your friends dee.
Death stalks us all and I hope to face mine with courage and dignity.
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TWW does everything that has been mentioned, and it’s been a trailblazer. At times a voice crying in the wilderness, saying things that people didn’t want to hear but absolutely needed to be said.
Over the years you have given untold amounts of time and energy, that you often didn’t have, to countless people who needed a voice.
You have apologized, unnecessarily, for taking a week off! You have put TWW above your own needs for rest and absorbed huge amounts of other people’s suffering and stress.
You are the definition of devotion.
If, as I suspect, God is calling you in a different direction, please know that you have given beyond expectation and please feel free to take the next step without guilt.
Whatever you do , I know that your WW family will always support you, love you and pray for you.
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“Light is good” – from early Dr Who episode
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Hi Dee, I’m a long time reader of TWW and I want to say how helpful it has been for me. What I think TWW does:
-Speak up for those who have no voice and help to bring about justice (Proverbs 31)
-Expose corruption in the wider church, not just reporting individual actions, but explaining the practices and trends that often enable abuse
-contending for the faith and defending the gospel that has been entrusted to Christians, knowing that God hates abuse, and to associate God with what sometimes passes as Christian ministry, is to defame him and take his name in vain
-providing a safe space for spiritually abused believers to feel supported and connected, knowing that while our experiences may make it hard to be involved with organised religion, God sees us and cares for us
Those are the main things I can think of. Thank you for what you do. Praying for you and your friends.
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“how would you summarize what we and I do at TWW?…I need to know what you think about TWW”
++++++++++++++++++++++
honesty and forthrightness.
-saying out loud what is generally unsaid (due to fear of losing institutional power & revenue, fear & paranoia & ignorance & having been brainwashed by christian church culture,…
empathy, compassion, and kindness for those who are hurting; for those whose lives have been devastated by the self-serving nature of christian authority.
intelligent & lively discussion of theology, with both an openness to other perspectives and respectful disareement.
great people who comment intelligently and creatively, with humor, depth, and compassion.
a community
something i look forward to reading and participating in every day.
i always learn something.
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It would have been nice if you had mentioned your co-partner Debs in the introduction. She did a lot of good work and was full of compassion for the victims. I miss her warmth.
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TWW’s original post is what brought me here. I was Doug’s classmate at SEBTS. At the time, I was struggling with having learned Greek and finding out mainline NTs were not exactly accurate about a lot of things, despite YEARS of hearing pastors and leaders say the English translations could be trusted (and were treated as inerrant).
As I read the posts, I realized I had seen other things, that I was not yet able to articulate–being blackballed from seminary by a group that claimed I was subhuman due to my gender. A pastor who had lied to get into a position at the church I attended in seminary, who then turned and installed an eldership of yes men and a retroactive 30-page covenant that was ghastly in it’s requirements and restrictions. I had been very weary of the New Calvinist movement already, seeing how it changed people I knew into elitist, callous, greedy predators or suffering and timid followers.
I haven’t been very active here lately because I needed to move on in life. I use the things I’ve learned to warn others about spiritual abuse, and not just for Christianity. I’ve been reunited with college and seminary friends who’ve also walked away, including a best friend who I lost touch with because we were both afraid to tell the other we walked away. I wasn’t always “winsome” here, and I apologize to anyone if I said unkind things. But I finally felt like I found people that understood what I saw and weren’t going to gaslight me that I didn’t (or worse).
So, I understand moving on, if that’s what needs to be done. I would wish, that the site could stay up, with closed commenting, for as long as possible. Maybe some of us could save things to the Wayback Machine. I found this site once, struggling with spiritual abuse, so I hope others might continue to find it. Others have taken up this mantle now, as social media allows, so there are more voices than there were back then.
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Jeffrey Chalmers,
I’m so glad I finally found one that doesn’t and is a place of refuge for me.
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Cynthia W.,
Thank you.
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davewis,
That was quite helpful. Thank you.
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Abigail,
Poppy and Daffodil say hi.
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My favorite name of all time. I wear it proudly.
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Karl,
I feel like one more voice crying in the wilderness. I think we have made some headway. Thank you for your kind comment.
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Ava Aaronson,
Awesome comment. Thank you.
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I am so glad you found a place when your church went through abuse. That was one of the reasons I started this blog. I thought I was alone and that my former church was an aberration. We all need each other.
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That makes me realize the many hours have been worth it.
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I:m with you Muff. Maybe I’ll do a bit more writing on this difficult subject. You have been at TWW from the early days. I’m so grateful for your input.
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Your comment was so kind. But, I assure you. Nothing is going to change. TWW has caught the attention of some folks, and I’m reflecting on it since I will need to express what has been happening here. I’ll let you all know soon. I am already planning on writing about some widespread coverup of child sexual abuse in a large church group that I’ve never written about before. There is also some excitement for the women in Oklahoma, etc. Nope, I’m still around, and nothing changes.
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I promise I’m not going anywhere. I’m just trying to represent you all well.
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Michael in UK,
Any quote from Doctor Who is worth requoting.
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Seeking21,
Great summary, Thank you.
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I promise I am not digging for compliments. I’m trying to express the essence of TWW to some people who may not fully understand what happens here.
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elastigirl,
I learn a bunch from you as well. You are a great writer.
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Lowlandseer,
Thank you for reminding me.I apologize. I am focusing on the here and now. It will make sense shortly.
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I am not going anywhere. I promise. Some people are looking closely at what I do here and want to represent you all well. Doug Goodrich…If he had been brought before the court today, he would have received far more than his 13 years. Throughout the last 15 years, his abuse of the boys is the worst I have heard. He was an incredibly sick man, and it worries me that he is out. 13 tears in the kinker will not cure his disgusting obsession.
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I suffered spiritual abuse within the Catholic Church from birth more or less until I walked away in my teens.
Since then I have joyfully reconstructed my faith such that I am way outside contemporary Christianity. I love Christ, and God, but without the dogma, and with robust skepticism. I think mankind got some signals badly crossed 2000 years ago, still causing many of the problems of which we converse. Let’s talk.
I have observed many commenters on this site who have reconstructed their faith or who have transformed it entirely. I value this site because it offers a channel for the evolution of faith within a spirt of open and honest dialogue. I sincerely believe and treasure that the Holy Spirit dwells here among the TWW denizens, in a way she might not in much of our society. Thank you, TWW.
I advocate a perspective on recovering abuse survivors that they not necessarily be required to “keep their faith” or even to love God. Recovery can be a transformative and creative process. As we all know, even so-called atheists can walk in the light. All that ascends, converges.
May Gods love be with you!
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I drifted away from the church many years ago, but always had fond memories of growing up as part of a church family. When I learned about Mahaney/Driscoll/etc, I tarted wondering what had happened to the american church. The more I read, the more horrified I became.
Don’t remember when I came to TWW but Deb was still here. i discovered a community of commenters who seemed to actually care about victims. The occasional fly-by flakes were treated with compassion and correction.
I hope for a world where Dee will no longer be bombarded with examples of Christians who have forgotten what Jesus told us to do, but here I see good examples every day.
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I would add:
TWW provides a platform to discuss aberrant theologies and their impacts on the American church.
For example, many blog pieces have dealt with the proliferation of New Calvinism … the “only true church” arrogance of its leaders … its unBiblical form of authoritarian patriarchy, with yes-men dudebro elder boards … and the oppression it presents to female believers with its “beauty of complementarity.” It is a form of spiritual abuse spreading through the American church. Many Wartburgers have experienced the pain of discipline, shunning and excommunication for simply questioning NeoCal belief and practice. The recent piece regarding the rise of Christian Nationalism is another example of religion gone amiss.
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dee,
Same! Love you Dee.
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My one suggestion would be to allow more discussion on politics. I understand the aversion, but I think in the next four years it will be hard to completely abstain from it. Just look at many who get covered here (Robert Morris, Daystar, Doug Wilson) and what wagon they hitch there horse to. Politics is complicated, but I think we can productive discussions about the theology of powerful evangelical Christians.
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Ishy’s comment provides a prime example.
ishy,
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dee,
“I am not going anywhere. I promise.”
++++++++++++
🙂 !
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It’s worth mulling over.
We’re all adults here, and should be able to discuss (rationally) more than just horn-dog pastors (dictators) who can’t keep their pants on.
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Sandy,
“I advocate a perspective on recovering abuse survivors that they not necessarily be required to “keep their faith” or even to love God.”
+++++++++++++++++
oh, the stories i could tell of my faith fellows equating a growing list of arbitrary, ever-changing things with “keeping one’s faith” and “loving God”.
people who think i’ve “lost my faith” and “don’t love God” because i don’t check all the boxes on their checklists.
the lists are all different.
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Another underlying mission of TWW, related to many of the above comments:
TWW puts the heat on church leaders to do the right thing when it comes to abuse of any kind within their ranks.
Unfortunately, it often requires a series of articles to get them to move from defending abusers to hearing the cries of victims. Such is the condition of certain corners of the American church.
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You give VOICE to survivors who are crying out in the wilderness but unheard, unheeded, discarded, and disbelieved. You amplify their voices. You call out their abusers. You shine light into dark systems. The work you do, Dee, is holy work indeed.
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Hohn Cho is an example of that. He knew about the work of TWW, and who knows if that was ones of Jo’s motivations. But he eventually stood up to one of the most powerful pastors in the US.
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Ishy,
Meh, my phone I’d determined to auto incorrect everything today … lol
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TWW exposes abuse in churches that otherwise goes unchecked, unreported, and unaccounted for. Most importantly, you give voice and support to the victims who are almost always unheard and even further abused in the church environment.
I believe you are acting, living, and responding as Jesus would toward those in need and not in need!
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TWW honors the voices of victims.
TWW helps victims and those who love them know they’re not alone and not crazy.
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This is also a place where I have read some laugh-out-loud funny comments! I’ve been away from here for a while… weary from physical illnesses and sometimes weary spiritually too… but I’ve found that the discussion in the comments can be very funny. Sometimes it is grave-side humor and not the right time for everyone at once, but I think we were chatting about handing out DARVO cards instead of BINGO cards at a Park Street Church meeting in the past. Like some of the stuff going on there is a “you can’t make this stuff up” level of dumb. And abuse. It’s abuse. And it’s also dumb beyond belief.
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TWW provides education so that its readers can spot abuse/corruption and take appropriate steps to respond to that, knowing that they will be supported by the TWW community.
This weekend a friend asked me about a specific resource for a Bible study. I didn’t know the author so looked them up…and yup, after just a wee bit of digging, I saw that the pastor (in a different country) had made a social media post supporting other church leaders credibly accused of abusing a dozen people…and this pastor did not provide any support for the victims. While I believe in due process, I am very uncomfortable with this dynamic based on what I see happening in US churches. I gave my friend the info and declined to participate. She is now looking for other options.
It’s really hard for me to say this truth…”Christianity” and “church” no longer automatically connote safety or Christ-like behavior to me. While no one is perfect, I will not spend my money on resources by those who place the powerful over the oppressed and the least of these.
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Unfortunately, this has become modus operandi in certain church systems … to support and provide cover for a bad-boy church leader until the potato becomes too hot to handle … then they distance themselves to protect their own skin.
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Dee,
In your OP, you wrote:
I’m praying for you and your friends, Dee….you’ve had so many things happen in such a short time — and that’s not including all the TWW stuff that you do.
You and many Wartburgers have already provided many of the reasons I (and many others) read TWW. And for me, TWW is a home to me….and a home church….and a small group….
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RE: TWW, even for those of us fortunate enough to not have experienced church abuse personally (I came to read the blog through my spouse), you open people’s eyes to the unfortunate reality in much of the ‘church’ (little ‘c’) today. I was a lot more naive and trusting of people claiming to be Christian in the past, and I hope to be discerning if an abuse situation presents itself in my sphere of existence in the future.
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Sandy,
Beautifrul comment.
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nmgirl,
I hope for that world as well.
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I needed to be reminded of that. Thank you.
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As somewhat of a Johnny come lately to TWW, partly due to health, the premise to this site and all who contribute in one way or another provide…
1. Much needed therapy and hope.
2. Valid and insightful reminders of what we already know to be true – CS Lewis.
3. Childlike innocence and bravery to prophetically and loudly say,”Hey,the emperor has no cloths”
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Observant Outsider,
Thank you. for that input. I am still opposed to it for many reasons, but I appreciate a little pushback. It makes me think.
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Grace,
Thank you for your grace-filled comment.
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Ian Docker,
Love the CS Lewis quote.
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That is what I hoped to do: push back and shine the light on what represents the true church, not one made up of our current-day biases.
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researcher,
You nailed it. It does feel a bit like a small group to me as well.
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Bridget,
You have been around TWW for a very long time. Thank you.
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I started this blog because I felt very alone and thought I was crazy. I am a little crazy but not as much as I thought! 🙂
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Your comment made me laugh.
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We have all gotten smarter together. I have grown so much through the years and continue to be surprised by where this journey has taken me and will continue to take me.
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The Wartburg Watch is not A church, but it IS a place where the Church DOES church.
It is a part of the family of God, and often functions as just that. A family.
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“It’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer.” (Albert Einstein)
Thank you, Dee, for being smart and tenacious enough to stick with the problems you face at TWW, while also dealing with challenges on the homefront over the years. Many have benefitted from your endurance to fight the good fight. Smart has merged into wisdom.
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All blogs ultimately become insular and old. Same themes, same commenters repeating their same personal biases.
And though there is hope that a blog will make a difference, I don’t think they do.
Solomon: “There is nothing new under the sun.”
[ He also noted that the making of books is without end – same with blogs. ]
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I echo many of the comments already made here – TWW has opened my eyes to new perspectives and ideas – and all done with civility. Thank you for what you do, Dee. And don’t forget the warnings against signing church membership covenants! And the timely advice on how to resign from a church. Along with keeping the focus on the victims of abuse and the many sheep in wolves clothing.
Keep up the good work!
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TWW has opened all our eyes to the many “shepherds” in wolves clothing. Sheep beware.
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Tell that to the many victims of abuse which have found an ear and a voice here. Sorry that TWW hasn’t made a difference in your life, Seneca.
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Max,
Meant to say that 😉
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You are wrong about this, Seneca. How many victims have come here and thanked Dee for sharing their story, or exposing the abuser, or the church or organization forvcovering up abuse? This has happened many times. These actions have helped many people. TWW also is a warning to folks of what people, organization’s, and situations to watch out for so they don’t become entangled. Much good happens here whether you recognize it or not.
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When I found TWW it was rest for a weary soul. When you’ve been beaten up and gaslit by the church, there’s comfort in knowing you’re not alone. The old adage, misery loves company comes to mind, but it’s more of a fellowship, uplifting, knowing you’re not alone community. TWW threw me a life line when I needed it.
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TWW is my training ground for identifying abuse and resisting it.
As a full time worker overseas when I come home I am treated as an equal by American pastors and elders. This gives a unique opportunity to see things church members can’t and to speak into situations the average member isn’t allowed to.
TWW gave me insight into why the church planting model my team follows overseas has been attacked by conservative resurgence new Calvinist SBC leaders. I used to go into meetings with these leaders and get blindsided. No longer. I know the books they are reading, the leaders they look up to and the problems with those points of view. I can now address issues head on instead of being in the dark.
TWW helped me understand why a close pastor friend was fired by his church. I helped him transition to a better ministry life because of what I learned here.
TWW helped me provide wise counsel to a friend whose church was taken over by a controlling leader.
TWW gives me courage to speak up instead of “being nice”. This has had negative financial repercussions at times but I have determined from reading the stories of grifters on TWW that I will never be like that. I will speak the truth, no matter what the personal consequences. I will not excuse abuse nor ignore controlling leadership.
TWW keeps me up to date on the dude bros. When friends back home begin to gush about them I’m well able to give informed warnings.
Finally, it’s hard to believe, but abusive and foolish leaders from the United States are even effecting national pastors in the country where I work overseas. My colleagues here don’t understand English so they are hearing through a translated social media page. Drives me absolutely crazy to see bad actors from the American church having this reach. Because of TWW I easily spot it and warn my local friends away. Not that everyone wants to listen of course.
Reading TWW and the intelligent, thoughtful comments from the community I am better equipped to counter abuse, false teaching, grifting, and controlling leaders.
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I have followed for twelve to fifteen years, but this is my first comment. I have found TWW to be a reliable source for thoughtful and helpful, honest dialogue, research and reporting, and clear directives on complex issues.
I have received an education that has shaped my approach to situations I have been a part and clarified my intuitive resistance to certain church leaders, attitudes and teaching. I am encouraged to see this place of accountability and people who notice and care.
I came to this site years ago following links from Phoenix Preacher (where I also don’t comment) and I particularly followed Debs writing. I almost left when she did, but your work in general had become increasingly helpful. So I stayed. I am glad I did. I have been helped which sometimes helps the many in certain small circles of this wide world.
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Not surprising. There is nothing evangelistic or mission-minded about the NeoCal dudebros now running SBC. They don’t preach the message of the Cross for ALL people in the U.S., so why would they be supportive of planting churches on foreign fields which preach Jesus saves.
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TWW is more of a church than most churches … a sanctuary for the abused and misused.
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Popsky,
I really likedPhoenix Preacher. I’m so glad you stuck it out around here.
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You help this be more than you know.
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This is precisely why i write. Thank you for your service abroad.
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Thank you. It gives me great peace to know that some of things discussed here are being used to help others.
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senecagriggs,
You are the curmudgeon of TWW. Thankfully, you have toned it down over the years, so you don’t get relegated to “slow moderation” as much anymore. I know deep down inside that you really like us; otherwise, you wouldn’t have stayed around for years. Hasn’t it been about 13 or so?
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You have been so helpful to me. I will be using these comments this weekend. Please pray that I give a voice to all written here. I will explain all of this as soon as I can.
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Neo-Cal leaders sent a clear message to SBC’s foreign missionaries when David Platt (NeoCal darling) recalled 1,000 veteran missionaries (primarily non-Calvinist) during his tenure at the International Mission Board. He cited a funding shortage, while his dudebro bud Kevin Ezell during the same time spent $60 million per year planting churches in North America (primarily with NeoCal “pastors” fresh out of seminary). Once a great evangelistic denomination, SBC is done; it just hasn’t quit yet.
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Max: TWW is more of a church than most churches
TWW is absolutely not a church.
It is, basically, a religious tribe led by a single Chief
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As a licensed mental health therapist, my great appreciation for TWW is how Dee has consistently called out “biblical counseling”, which is neither: “biblical” or “counseling.” Dee has created awareness without being pejorative which begs the reader to consider the efficacy of her position.
As a former “Moderate” Southern Baptist pastor and denominational executive in NC, TWW has been invaluable in documenting the theological swing towards NeoCalvinism that has supported the rise of complementarianism whose power dynamics open the door to the possibilities of abuse in the church at multiple levels.
Finally, for me TWW has been an overwhelmingly positive place to converse with good folks who seek to support one another and hold empathy and prayer for those affected by trauma and abuse.
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It’s folks like you (an SBC insider) who confirm what many of us see (or experienced) regarding the aberrations of faith manifested in NeoCal belief and practice. Thank you for sharing your helpful insight. I’m sure there are many “former” SBC pastors who have left the denomination because of the theological drift and ecclesiological shift within SBC ranks. This will spell the end to a once-great evangelistic denomination … and whose plan would that be?
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I am a member of a very small SBC church in North Dakota. We never talk about the SBC. I would have absolutely no idea what is actually going on in the SBC were it not for this blog. I also rarely comment, but read this blog consistently. I suspect there are quite a number of us hanging out here just watching.
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“Then we should just all hold hands and walk into a chopper blade?”
— Hawkeye Pierce, 4077tn MASH
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Therein lies the dilemma. Most SBC churches have less than 200 members and are in rural areas. Most SBC members are non-Calvinist in belief and practice. They continue to worship as they have for generations, but have no idea that the New Calvinists are now firmly in control of all SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and a growing number of once-traditional (non-Calvinist) SBC churches which have been taken over by the NeoCals through stealth and deception. If millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists in small churches knew, they would not agree with the deceptive shift in theology that is occurring. Yet, millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists finance this takeover without knowing as they give their hard-earned dollars to the Cooperative Program, Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, and Annie Armstrong Easter Offering. It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen. And I say that as a former Southern Baptist who spent 70 years in the denomination; I am a “Done” now, having moved on when the New Calvinists set up camp in the SBC. I dare say that every SBC pastor knows what is going on, but are not having “family meetings” with their congregations as they ought in order to maintain unity. Praise God for blogs such as this which inform and warn.
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He’s too Godly for it to make a difference.
“If he were blind, he would have no sin; but he says, ‘I see.’”
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Usually you get some insights into Christian thought that goes beyond the dogma.
There’s only a couple of times when tww has really made a bad call. And that’s when Dinesh D’Souza and Charlie Kirk were featured on echurch.
If tww is moving towards a contributor driven model and given that an avowed Christian nationalist like Pastor Burleson has been mentioned, I sincerely hope that the site tries to maintain political neutrality.
That being said, evolving into a corporate entity (whether nonprofit ministry or for profit news aggregator) is not a bad thing. Just be sure to have a set mission and values statement. A document that sets out rules for contributors to follow – what you do and do not write about.
One of the pitfalls is becoming agenda driven. The blog did go that way a little bit with the well intended prayer requests and go fund me requests a number of years ago.
Pick a track and stay with it and I think you’ll be ok.
Best of wishes.
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Because over the past 40 years (and especially the last 8 or 9), American Christians have become INCREDIBLY Politicized, playing the Game of Thrones with dagger in one hand and vial of poison in the other like there’s no tomorrow. (And if you’re Rapture Ready, there isn’t.) To the point I’m having a hard time seeing the difference between them and a political hate group.
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And (combining with my post immediately above), these aberrant theologies are also spilling over into mainstream politics, as well as the reverse – Extreme Politics and Aberrant Theology going symbiotic and synergistic with each other.
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Funny. The Catholic Church was where I found healing from spiritual abuse.
And respect for learning, encouragement of the arts and creativity, and rest from 24/7 Wretched Urgency.
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Absolute truth.
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And yet here we are….
I’m not here
You’re not here
There is no beep
Don’t leave a message
– t shirt “Jean Paul Sartre’s answering machine
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No doubt about it. Christian Nationalism, with its marriage of extremes in politics and religion, presents an uncertain future.
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And how is that any different from a church?
Churches are not exempt from human politics.
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Here’s some input dee:
TWW works just fine as it is.
Any tweaking with the works should be minimal.
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will not be published. Required fields are marked *
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TWW is a community like no other I’ve ever come across.
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Dee, I found your blog about 6 months ago through the help of Cindy. I am so thankful for the work you do and help you provide to victims of sexual abuse within the church. So many congregation members don’t want to believe their loving pastor could do such a vile act. The fact is, that’s what the pastor is banking on – the loyalty. I appreciate your strength. You listen to the victims (or survivors), write the stories, call pastors and denomination leaders to make them aware of the victim’s stories and allow them to make a statement, if they’re brave enough to return your call or not hang up on you. You continue to work and dig for answers on how to get the victim’s story in the light and for resolution. How do I know these things personally? Because you are helping MY friends. Thank you!
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The church is the Body of Christ wherever it may be found … Christ is the head of it. The Bible never refers to the church as a building; it always refers to people. People who follow Christ show up here daily, along with some who don’t recognize a work of God and oppose it.
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Muff Potter,
No tweeking in mind. This is something unexpected and requires no change on my part.
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Jack,
I neededthat laugh tonight.
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Just to clarify, the funding was not for TWW but for a woman going through a bad divorce. Agree with the need to stay politically neutral.
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Christians “gather” here to discuss many things that relate directly to Christianity – just like what happens in church.
Many are fed and grow in Christ through the contributions of others – just like what happens in church.
Many hear things they may never have considered and learn from them – just like what happens in church.
Many take what they learn here and use to help minister to others outside of TWW – just like what happens in church.
So in one sense TWW functions like a church. In other ways though, it does not.
Many try their best to unravel the ungodly things they have experienced – things they never should have experienced in a church. Pretty difficult to do that in a church. So in that respect TWW is not like many churches – thank God.
For many this is the only place they feel safe. Unlike some might feel in any church – again, thank God.
With Dee, there is no hiding what she is about. Apparently unlike so many churches – once again, thank God.
In critical areas TWW functions like a church for those that may not have a church.
In critical areas TWW does NOT funtion like a church which is critical for those that can no longer trust a church . . . .
BECAUSE OF WHAT WAS DONE TO THEM IN A “CHURCH”.
Is TWW a permanent replacement for a local church? Of course not
well, except possibly for some that may not be able to find a replacement church.
And when it comes down to it, just how is a church different than a tribe anyway?
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Which is why I’m super-grateful that the Founders of our Nation made sure that religion will never decide National policy.
Practice whatever religion you (generic you) want in complete freedom, and that’s as far as it goes, it will never become public law.
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On the way to finding a really old comment I wanted to update (on the Spiritual Abuse thread) I happened on a comment by “God” from just a few years ago. “God” was updating this unique community about a Cricket match. I can only imagine the reaction this might have caused in many corners of the interwebs. Folks would have quoted Biblescriptures at Him. They might have chided Him for taking His own name in vain. This proves we’re not only a unique community— we might even be very unique or especially unique!
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Nick Bulbeck,
On a more serious note, Nick, can you clarify a comment from last week? Do you still have a current website or is one on the way in a wee bit? You’ve had some helpful insights in the past, and I’d like to refresh my memory regarding parachurch organizations going by the name of churches… Thanks!
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I am Me
And She is He
And We Are All
Rule Sixty-Threed!
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Which really says something about the state of most churches.
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Long ago, when a previous generation of Calvinists (Massachusetts Puritans) was asked about mission fields, they answered “We Evangelize our Children”.
AKA “Bedroom Evangelism”/QUiverfull.
The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs and nobody else.
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That seems to be going out the door at the moment. Look what’s going on in Oklahoma . . .
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Comment 1 of 2: GMFS
GMFS! And wishing Wartburgers everywhere a great weekend.
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Comment 2 of 2: On TWW being church
It seems to me that many gatherings call themselves churches, but a proportion of them are not, and perhaps never had been. For that matter, a large proportion of planted churches (though not all) are planted in towns that already have churches; they’re really either extensions of a parent denomination or expressions of the entrepreneurial designs of a keen public speaker.
By contrast, neither Dee nor (before she left) Debs ever set out to “plant a church”. The weekly e-Church was a relatively late addition, with a view to offering something to Wartburgers who had gathered here having(for want of a better word) fled from organised christianity. But that’s the point; people had already gathered here. Wartburg has always had a cause, but that cause is people.
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Comment 3 of 2: Cricket
Another point in TWW’s favour is that it is, as far as I know, the only Christian blog whose national sport is cricket.
The Third Test between New Zealand and England is finely poised after Day 1. England won the toss and fielded; some rather poor bowling in the morning assisted the hosts in reaching 105 without loss, but better bowling in the afternoon reduced them to 231-7 – only for a fine unbeaten 50 from Mitchell Santner, batting at 8, to hold them up. New Zealand closed on 315-9.
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Observant Outsider,
In every country, we need to move deeper from uneasiness about the alleged substance of the equivocating (the decoy from the decoy), to calling out the fact of equivocating itself. Media and “connections” were the easy way for even mild-mannered personages (C Henry, J Stott) to evade Holy Spirit dependence. They set a low intellectual bar for secular administration and commerce to follow. “What you bind on earth, is bound in heaven.”
Their yea has long not been yea and their nay has long not been nay; this is very different from giving others good leeway and discretion (which they sometimes pretend to do as concession; Ortberg whose products were among the less sensational on our high streets, strung many people along for years – my heart was tugged Dee when you stated you had highly esteemed him – and he only learned it from those before him).
The prophets and apostles and Jesus said (to everybody), “stop oppressing those smaller than you” (a.k.a advocacy) and left the bigwigs to figure that out; they didn’t say “go through the evangelicalism hoops and you’ll be alright in the sky”. Now it’s too late to try to bactrack as if nothing changed in between. The real point in Daniel is ch 9: 3-21, repenting by proxy for the ills of our forebears and betters in religion; not as gotcha in apologetism.
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See that Dee he’s promoted you!
Permission (no I don’t need to ask your permission) to be my own man like Seneca is.
In fact Seneca I don’t find you any more out of (my) line than a couple of the oldtimers here.
Nearly all the regulars here think I’m well out of their line.
But collectively, you’ve contrived to give me back my childhood savvy.
Which “primate of the Communion” model does Dee emulate?
TGC is an instance of one of those so called communions.
The religion bosses should have stayed in lane (sorry HUG) and let us relate individually at discretion.
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addendum “insincere instance”
Nick, in Bebbington there are references to 19 th century evangelicals disapproving of cricket. Is that the same as what underlay poor Ravi Zacharias’ youthful qualms – I can’t help grieving that he “once relented”.
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senecagriggs,
This comment almost made me spit out my coffee…. You do not know me if you think, and I extrapolate to many posters here if you think I would bow to Dee as my “chief”…. I have lived to long, and experienced to much, to let a human be my “chief”…. Having said this, I take very seriously, Dee’s opinions, as well as most of the posters… this makes TWW very different from many “church’s” where you can NOT question the “chief”…
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Nick Bulbeck,
C’mon Nick, give us Comment 4 of 2…
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
To me, one of the main “issues” with the Roman Catholic Church was its leadership doctrines, which IMHO, contributed to the child sex abuse scandal..,
I have alwayse respected the Roman Catholic Church for the virtues you mentioned HUG..
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Me too.
The RCC in modern times has stood at the forefront of moral and social issues.
It was RCC priests who spoke out against the Vietnam quagmire, while fundagelical pastors endorsed it.
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The universal church consists of everyone, everywhere, who has a relationship with Jesus Christ. Some gather here as they are led. Dee wouldn’t call TWW a “church”, but it sure feels like it sometimes. We even have fussin’ and fightin’ among the members like in the physical church! 🙂
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(The bold was done by me.)
And it’s going on in my province, as the Premier works at setting up her own personal fiefdom, police force included….
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…including about food (physical and spiritual). 🙂
Who’s bringing what to the after-church potluck? 🙂 🙂 🙂 We might not be able to physically eat it, but…. 🙂
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Muff Potter,
Happy to oblige a long-term regular Wartburger!
Comment 4 of 2: More cricket
This hot off the press: England finally dismissed the Kiwis for 347, with Mitchell Santner eventually falling for 76. The last three home wickets added 117 runs – not the best tail-end bowling from the tourists.
England’s reply has just started – 1 without loss so far.
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on youtube Michael W. Smith first two Christmas albums
welcome to our world
Christmastime Away in a manger medley2
All is well
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senecagriggs,
Merry Christmas, Seneca
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Max,
True. Even more so when the model centers on the priesthood of all believers who take turns leading house fellowships using a simple discovery format which even an 11 year can follow ( I know because when my youngest was 11 they led our group one week and blew the mind of an American mega church pastor who happened to be visiting town that week.). The neo Calvinist decry this model because it flies in the face of their high control, professional clergy chokehold on the church. We’ve never seen house churches embrace aberrant theology whereas I’ve seen plenty of sketchy stuff coming from men no one can question.
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senecagriggs,
I don’t know about that. The church is the Body of Christ on earth. It’s true we don’t baptize or share finances together on TWW but we fill all functions of a church despite living in far flung places. Dee is the author of the posts but as you notice she does not tell anyone what to believe or do. I note she even welcomes up with curmudgeons (smile). As far as Christian communities go this is a pretty sweet one.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG I love your comments. Laughed out loud at this one.
(Because of course blogs make a difference – knowledge empowers us to act. )
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You jolly old elf…. I laugh when I read you in spite of myself…
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Dee,
TWW has been the safe place where I could learn to define the spiritual abuse that I had experienced years before and that was suddenly happening in the church I loved so much (thankfully, the elders canned the pastor before it got worse). I’m not a frequent commenter, but I appreciate the posts and comments.
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Long-standing Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of ‘the’ believer” and “soul competency” have been diminished under the New Calvinist rule of SBC. They are no longer preached in Southern Baptist churches (at least not in my area). New Calvinists do not want church folks to know that every believer has direct access to God through Jesus and that they can relate to Him without the mediation of other people or institutions. If you know those core truths, they can’t control you … they want to control every jot and tittle of your faith. To accomplish that, Scripture must be filtered through them rather than the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth.
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Max,
I agree/endorse what Max says.. except it is not just the New Calvinist that are warping the “Good News”.. it seems that trying to “take control”, or getting in between the believer and G$d is as old as mankind..
Some humans love to be “in control” over other humans, and many other humans love to let others “control them”
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Now it’s Priesthood of the Predestined Elect and ONLY The Predestined Elect.
As preached by God’s Pets the Predestined Elect, of course.
Somebody tell me again about the Reformer’s beef with Romish Papist Priestcraft?
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yea, I think the same thing..
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Oh yeah, there has always been an attempt by man and a movement to distort the Gospel in order to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate the spiritual daylights out of others. New Calvinism is just the most current and toxic version of that.
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Beef?
Luther (pronounced loo-tair) was just as brutal as any ‘Papist’.
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And then there’s Calvin.
The only thing the Pope, Luther, and Calvin could agree on was a Final Solution to the Anabaptist Problem.
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Fisher,
Is it in a book or website please?
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Dee: “Who remembers why I like to post pictures of the stars?”
Because you are an astronaut on a secret mission?
Because you are an angel?
Why??
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Dee, your overview of TWW is good. My initial perception of the part about the Duggars was that it was uncharitable, but on re-reading it seemed like it was probably well-deserved.
Some of your work is helpful for me in understanding other systems of abuse. I just had a family conversation this morning about some things in health care and in finance that are affecting our family and friends.
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“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
– Carl Sagan
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“What Do We Do at TWW?”
For the most part, I really believe that Dee and commenters love others as Jesus loves us. Empathy for those who have been used and abused by ministers and ministries comes through daily.
“I give you a new commandment. Love each other just as much as I have loved you. For when you demonstrate the same love I have for you by loving one another everybody will know that you’re my true followers.” (John 13:34-35)
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“I’m not saying its Aliens, but IT’S ALIENS!”
— Guy with the Centauri haircut who took over History Channel