Elizabeth Hance gently holds our hands to hurl us down the Jamesian slippery slope, from, it’s only abuse of complementarian – ism that is offputting to such women, to, it’s not even or really that anyway because look how they are all as bad as these pagans I describe. And gently back again as if we had awakened from a nightmare. She should try to score sentimental tunes instead.

Objectively (in the real God’s eyes) churches that don’t unequally yoke with the TGC could better invent their own thing that they might call complementarian – ism, but we can’t unyoke from TGC as that means going against TGC culture: note that their culture is that their Bismarck-like organisational grip precedes the nature of any content.

This gives the lie to their priority claim of ownership of God’s plan.

Personnel in foyers should keep their fingers well clear of newcomers, preferably behind their backs so they aren’t tempted (they can even hide their handcuffs that way). Stand at least six feet back and beam nicely. It might even convey the message, we have got room for you!

R,

You ask a very good question. Americans love to be entertained, love to be served, and love all sorts of feel-good diversions except loving God and others.

“Mark Dever Is Stopping Young Women From Leaving the Church”

“Christ has set us free” (Galatians 5:1)

Run, girls! You are free in Christ to ignore Mr. Dever and chart your own Christian journey. Don’t allow him to chain you down with New Calvinist rules and regulations. If he excommunicates you, congratulations!

I’m always amazed when I read articles like TGC.I never realized how miserable and unhappy i am because I pursued several different careers, never married, never had children, made all my own decisions (good and bad) about my body, my sexuality, my education, my friends, my religious beliefs,etc.

Max,

“Coming to Christ Through Complementarianism”
“Complementarian theology played an important part in Anna’s conversion.”

Ahhhh, salvation for a woman through committing her life, her very soul, to trusting, obeying, and serving a fallible, mortal man.
This “theology” renders Jesus totally useless to women

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“Pastor of Guest Experience“

Uhm, is this their idea of God’s version of the Nielsen ratings for a tv show, or is it more more like a Biblically customer survey for a new set of Gotham Steel cookware?
So, what do they do if the guests say the experience was horrible?

From Elizabeth Hance:
Women have been taught not only that they rule their own bodies and lives but that they have the power to decide who lives and dies. Why would women see a need for God when they’ve functionally become gods?

So when men rule their own bodies and lives, does that mean they too have rejected God and have functionally become gods?

What we have here is, aside from more brainwashing, is the usual double standard, only we’re suppose to buy it now that it’s written by a woman. Okay Elizabeth, go enjoy your religious prison; when you’ve outlived your usefulness to the patriarchy and get kicked out for asking one question, there’ll be a community waiting to welcome you as an equal. Toward the end of my church membership, an angry pastor once asked me, “Do you think God is pleased with you and your decision to not obey me?” I answered, “I think God is pleased with me for using the brain He gave me.” The Church will be stronger when we all use the brains He gave us, instead of hiding them in a closet because insecure men feel threatened and try to use the approval of God as a weapon against women.

More times than not, submission to men does not equal submission to God.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): This “theology” renders Jesus

It renders women totally useless to men, and it renders boys and men totally useless full stop as there’s nothing to grow into.

My spies told me the women do good works. But the women are forbidden to teach us men how to do good works.

Max: “What in the world is a Pastor of Guest Experience?”

“Pastor of Guest Esperience” is right up there with “Commander of Great Feathers” from that New Agey pyramid scheme “The Airplane Game”.

The Church will be stronger when we all use the brains He gave us, instead of hiding them in a closet because insecure men feel threatened

Ariel,

I agree. I was raised in an SBC church…..(IHA! I grew up and still live about a 50 minute drive from Mark Dever’s hometown!)

I was a 36 year old high school math teacher and an SS and VBS teacher (from kindergarten up through high school) when the BF&M 2000 was adopted. I was very active in church. So, Please believe me when I tell you that things were not always the way they are now.

(Side note: By 2011, the person in the church who was giving me the most grief because I was teaching a mixed gender SS class full of teenagers just happened to be a man whom, two years prior, I had spent my Saturday mornings tutoring through his college adv. algebra classes so that he would qualify for a higher paying job. Go figure.)

In Feb. 2016, I stopped attending church. I faced up to the fact that the church left me long before then.

“I have come to see that many wrongs occurred in 1998. The first was my inappropriate relationship with Jules, which was not only immoral, but meets the definition of abuse of power since I was her youth pastor” (Andy Savage)

I guess Mr. Savage hasn’t yet “come to see” that his sin/crime should have been permanently disqualifying from ministry. If he is truly repentant, the church should forgive him but not restore him to ministry. He may have went through a “valley”, but Ms. Woodson went through hell for years. Only cheap grace would put him back in the pulpit at Grace Valley Church.

Doug Wilson? What more can be said about him?! There are dark corners of the American “church” which are scary indeed.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): (Side note: By 2011, the person in the church who was giving me the most grief because I was teaching a mixed gender SS class full of teenagers just happened to be a man whom, two years prior, I had spent my Saturday mornings tutoring through his college adv. algebra classes so that he would qualify for a higher paying job. Go figure.)

I am so sorry to hear this Nancy, and it pisses me off to no end.
Some men have zero conscience and zero integrity.
And for what?
Some Greek letters all run together on crumbling parchments?

R: why have we not just gone back to having little neighborhood churches with run-of-the-mill worship services and real pastors who know their small congregations?

Because those can also go sour, just they go sour in a different direction.
Remember all those tiny independent IFB churches?
Or the “Just Us Four, No More, AMEN” independent house churches all on their own without a reality check?

Ariel: More times than not, submission to men does not equal submission to God.

+++++++++++++++++

I appreciated your whole comment.

I’d say submission to men doesn’t exist where God is concerned.

Except for law enforcement, I truly can’t think of any human being I would submit to or have ever submitted to.

In my own professional and personal development I make myself accountable to those with more knowledge and skill, so I grow and progress.

(Higher education, teachers, trainers, employers)

I don’t submit to them; i reserve the right to choose differently re: the structure and information they give me. And own the results/consequences.

Goodness, this word “submit/submission”…. This was never ever a thing growing up Christian (in the 70s and 80s).

In my context, it’s as new and silly and totally unnecessary as my car making decisions for me.

Max:
“Mark Dever Is Stopping Young Women From Leaving the Church”

“Christ has set us free” (Galatians 5:1)

Run, girls!You are free in Christ to ignore Mr. Dever and chart your own Christian journey. Don’t allow him to chain you down with New Calvinist rules and regulations.If he excommunicates you, congratulations!

And, as Dee has pointed out (she has a whole post on this), no church can force you to stay. Even if they reject your request to be removed from the rolls, you have a right (both as a human and as an American citizen/resident) to stop attending/supporting that church. If they want to pad their rolls with absent members, that’s their (stupid) choice.

Elastigirl: Goodness, this word “submit/submission”…. This was never ever a thing growing up Christian (in the 70s and 80s).

While various authoritarian patriarchal church cultures have proliferated in the last 50 years with that message, the resurgence of Calvinism (via New Calvinism) has definitely turned on the heat to submit/submit/submit or else!

Pastors could definitely help young women from leaving church by publicly holding the men in their church accountable for their rotten, immoral, abusive bad behavior, and unholy attitudes toward women. Since that is not happening in complementation churches the young women will continue to leave.

BTW I don’t believe for a minute that story about “Anna” coming to Christ because of complementarianism is true. No women in her thirties who has had a career is excited about becoming some man’s emotional and physical inferior.

“But we love our women!” they say. Yeah right. You love them subject to you.

Max: While various authoritarian patriarchal church cultures have proliferated in the last 50 years with that message, the resurgence of Calvinism (via New Calvinism) has definitely turned on the heat to submit/submit/submit or else!

When are they introducing Religious Police with Whips?

Fisher: “But we love our women!” they say. Yeah right. You love them subject to you.

Your personal Property with Benefits on Demand (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean). All justified by “GAWD SAITH!”

Problem is for me, there can be NO companionship with a cooker/cleaner/breeder/sex toy.

Headless Unicorn Guy: When are they introducing Religious Police with Whips?

They would if they could.
Fortunately, the Founders of our Nation took steps to ensure that they May Not.

Jeffrey J Chalmers:
Headless Unicorn Guy,

The irony is that Christ spoke/taught in the form of parables often.Parables make you go away and think.. not absolte, clear cut rules…

And STORIES stick in your mind a lot better than Checklists.

nmgirl: I’m always amazed when I read articles like TGC.I never realized how miserable and unhappy i am because I pursued several different careers, never married, never had children, made all my own decisions (good and bad) about my body, my sexuality, my education, my friends, my religious beliefs,etc.

I have to admit that right now, when I read articles like this, I question whether I really want to get married in January. (Why yes, I’m getting married in January to a guy I’ve known since the 1980s.) Then I remember that my fiance is not that way at all, and in fact he’s been concerned about the simmering anger I have towards fundamentalism. So then I’m not worried.

Elastigirl,

Those guys (fundagelicals) hate and despise human freedom of any kind.

After reading the article, I’m still trying to figure out how Mark Dever is stopping women from leaving the church.

Obviously he is not.

Is Capitol Hill everybody’s cup of tea? No

Is any member free to leave? Absolutely

Ah, but this is TWW who despises complementationism which believes God created men for some roles and women for others though their spiritual value is absolutely equal.

Dee won’t be happy until 50% of all Evangelical churches has a women as head pastor.

Muff Potter:
Elastigirl,

Those guys (fundagelicals) hate and despise human freedom of any kind.

Is that any surprise?

The Fundagelical God hates humans and human freedom with a perfect hatred. That means You, Me, Everyone except his Special Pets.

Look at their Revenge Jesus at Armageddon, who Shall Rule With a Rod of Iron. Forever.

Heaven (NOT Olam-ha-ba) as nothing but worship bots endlessly repeating “PRAISE GOD! PRAISE GOD! PRAISE GOD!” like an MP3 loop. Cosmic North Korea – Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader – FOREVER.

The two Author Self-Inserts in Left Behind: Volume 13 (set AFTER the Second Coming) going to and fro throwing their weight around as God’s Special Enforcers. At the very end of Volume 12 (the actual Second Coming and Judgment), they received a New Arda (if not a New Ea) from the hand of Iluvatar Himself, and all it meant to them was “Now we can have a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation.”

Headless Unicorn Guy: twice as crazy, and DEAD SERIOUS.

Such as this Complementarian meme that’s taken over Social Media in the past three weeks:
“Your Body. MY Choice. Forever.”

Headless Unicorn Guy: “Now we can have a Truly CHRISTIAN Nation.”

It would be as brutal a dictatorship as any the world has seen.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Congratulations and best (and I do mean, truly, the best) wishes to the both of you!

That. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Max,

Max

Understand your valid concerns and have experienced the dogmatism, and sadly arrogance, of those who adhere to this strong calvinist world view.
Yes, there is a systematic covert infiltration here too among mainline churches and denominations, with some clergy I’m told even concealing their cards to church boards and councils when negotiating a new pastoral position. Disturbing when christian ethics are dismissed because the end justifys the means.
Interesting to note too that some aren’t always convicted enough by their new, and not so old theology, to walk away from church assets and property if disagreements arise.
Oddly enough I provided interim ministry to a church where many moons back Arthur Pink once served. Arthur – who authored ‘The Sovereignty of God’ and whose personality and strong calvinist stance apparently wasn’t well received, is now vogue.
The troubling thing about all this, is that Grace is the unique aspect of historical and bibical Christianity.
Sadly, this world view/theology when overtly pushed in word and deed is so ungracious.

Ps apologies for any typos – big fingers small phone

Ian Docker: The troubling thing about all this, is that Grace is the unique aspect of historical and biblical Christianity.

In New Calvinism, it’s all about grace-this and grace-that, but there is no Grace in their method and message. They use the very word “grace” to deceive churches … blasphemous!

Max: this was justifiable for the good of the NeoCal movement – to restore the ‘true’ gospel (Calvinism) to the American church and capture churches and assets for their cause.

I can’t help thinking that 60-100 years ago these same guys “raised up for such a time as this” would have been on-fire for The Cause of Communism instead of Calvinism.

Complementarian theology played an important part in Anna’s conversion. For years, she’d watched abuses of authority bring harm. But through our pastors’ example, she saw how good authority—rather than throwing off all authority—serves as a corrective. Our pastors aren’t perfect, but they strive to serve, they’re quick to repent, and they promote healing as they lead. They offered Anna a new, powerful example of the Good Shepherd’s care—and God used it to save her.

For years, I’ve watched Mark Dever write abusive crap and parade his ego all over Youtube, so I have to question the truth of this statement. I’ve also watched dear friends up close because enamored with his theology and turn into horrible people who abuse the people around them. It’s not just complementarianism, though the assumption that there can’t possibly be any other interpretation of the Bible is arrogant in itself, but the core of New Calvinist theology that talks about people being irredeemable but puts male leaders on a pedestal with no accountability and acts like their own theology doesn’t apply to themselves. Their beliefs are elitist and downright wicked.

Moreover, I’ve been in churches where what was really going on is not what members saw. Or, members had built up an image of their pastor which was nothing like who the pastor was. I mean, I can come up with a huge list of pastors who were talked about like gods by their members or other average Christians, who turned out to be nothing but criminals and phonies. I know this woman is writing to their brainwashed ones, but ugh.

ishy,
New Calvinist elite look for token women to use as examples of female believers who can speak to other women about the “beauty of complementary.” It’s indoctrination in motion, designed to make the dudebros look female-friendly even though they are not.

Max: New Calvinist elite look for token women to use as examples of female believers who can speak to other women about the “beauty of complementarity.”

Like a judas goat – https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_goat

Ian Docker: Arthur Pink … an obscure figure, but from time to time referred to due to his concentrated form of calvinism

I suppose there are New Calvinists out there who wear “A.W. Pink is My Homeboy” t-shirts … I’ve seen Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon versions of those.

Elastigirl: ‘Golly’…. People say this sincerely? How much pushback are you noticing?

Yes, I do say “golly” sincerely…so far the pushback has been from my 16 year old son…

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

They stole our vocabulary: christianity, marriage, belief, meaning, care . . .

Very heartened by the news of you both !!!

Michael in UK: They stole our vocabulary: christianity, marriage, belief, meaning, care . .

I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically the redefinition of the Enemy’s words into their “diabolical meanings”. Nowhere to we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of the Enemy’s Altar!
— Screwtape