Ahh.. I think we should start a nasty, knock down, political fight!, ( just being sarcastic…)

Turns out the Texas pastor who attempted to foist the newly amended BFM2000 onto the state convention, is also in the news for tyrannical behavior at his church:

https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/texas/bgct-rejects-call-to-affirm-2000-baptist-faith-message/

“Messengers to Texas Baptists’ annual meeting soundly defeated a motion affirming the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message, the Southern Baptist Convention statement of faith that limits the role of pastor to men.”

“Jeff Williams, pastor of First Baptist Church in Denton, made a motion “that the Baptist General Convention of Texas affirm the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message”.”

https://churchleaders.com/news/500863-deacons-texas-church-reject-fire-pastor-jeff-williams.html

“last year Williams faced formal complaints regarding angry outbursts, bullying, and “abusive or toxic behavior”. Current and former staff members…said the pastor’s troubling actions occurred during meetings, out of view of most church members.”

“First Baptist of Denton hired HR Ministry Solutions…[which found] that Williams’ actions amounted to “harassment in the form of a hostile work environment”…”hostile, demeaning, intimidating, and bullying words and actions”…the pastor retaliated against or threatened employees who complained about him to church leadership.”

“Complaints about Williams mentioned a short temper and a loud, angry tone during meetings…”his face will get red, his eyes will kind of bug out, and he puts his finger in your face, that happens behind the scenes”, said a longtime church member and volunteer.”

“the personnel committee voted…[for] the pastor’s termination…[but] deacons supported Williams, preventing the committee’s recommendation from going to a congregational vote.”

[and he’s angling to make these yes-men deacons into “elders”]

“During a church business meeting last month, remaining members of the personnel committee were not renominated to serve.”

“At the meeting, some congregants…expressed concerns that Williams wasn’t disciplined and that the “revolving door” of departing staff and congregants would continue.”

“Next month, church members are expected to vote on a new elder-led governance model for First Baptist of Denton.”

Jeffrey Chalmers,

Muff Potter,

Sarcastic…. whew! That’s a relief. Politics? Well, the SBC is neck deep in that.
Besides, there’s always plenty of evangelical bad news.

I was thinking more along the lines of our upcoming holiday…… hanging on to things to be thankful for ….. beautiful foliage (not so much in Southwestern KY-dry late summer and fall… I wish it was fall 9 months of the year)……. cooler/cold weather….

linda: Bet you can guess which pile is facing being tinder for the woodstove, lol.

I can guess that the ticked-off God gets the axe.

But both of your piles are way off base.

God clearly gives many of those sub-pond-scammers a happy life.

Even worse, many of his children who long for the comfort of his lap get a boot in the face.
I was an altar boy in the Catholic Church and I saw God cut both ways.
Many an abused boy cried out in the moment and for years and years—with not a whisper in return.
Why?

linda,

Haha! I purged most of my Christian marriage and parenting books a few months ago. Should have done it a quarter century ago, we’d have been better off.

R: I purged most of my Christian marriage and parenting books a few months ago. Should have done it a quarter century ago, we’d have been better off.

IMO, the American church started going South when Christian psychologists got the microphone, turning the attention from Jesus to ourselves. The largest section in “Christian” bookstores are self-help books.

Max: IMO, the American church started going South when Christian psychologists got the microphone, turning the attention from Jesus to ourselves.The largest section in “Christian” bookstores are self-help books.

100% agree

Two beautiful early mornings in a row. Wednesday had a glorious rosy fingered dawn covering most of the eastern sky in red and gold. Thursday had a full rainbow in the west. Both are portents of the rain we should be getting tomorrow. Much needed but still a difficult time for those with insufficient shelter.

But then I think of my aunt’s father. A Russian Jewish person. Fought in WW2, a POW in a nazi camp along with his whole squadron for at least a year, later a communist then a republican, on the Berkeley city council…

A most interesting person. Lovely to know and talk to.

Later in life he said he didn’t know whether or not God existed, but reasoned that if God was real he’d be trying to let me know.

I surmise that it’s quite possible my aunt’s father was inquiring – “God, if you’re real, let me know somehow.” He was in his 80s of 90s.

I don’t think there was any response. Not in proportion to his inquiry. Nothing he noticed or observed, whether in the spiritual or physical realm.

It was a total missed golden opportunity on God’s part.

I can’t fathom why you stayed quiet, hidden and undemonstrative, God. When I know you can be very demonstrative. And for folks who don’t deserve such things.

Daystar is nothing but a business that milks their listeners. God is flipping the tables. Image and $ are far more protected by them than their own grandchild. Disgusting…….. blaming the child. Sounds way to familiar.

Stavros: Archbishop of Canterbury Welby was just forced to resign

Sometimes-God is often better late than never.

Sandy: Sometimes-God is often better late than never.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9)

He’s always on time.

Elastigirl,

But I love blue, and I love God.

I just think the whole “Omni-Everything” idea is a giant red herring.

But I still love red.

Max: I stand corrected.

I wish you would correct me, instead, if you know differently.

I yearn for some resolution of this mystery.
I suspect that you do too.

I have affinity for my fellow altar boys.

Telling them that God’s apparent indifference to evil done in his name, in his sacristy, to his young servants, is actually mysterious evidence of his absolute love, doesn’t cut it.

Sandy,

While I DO NOT want to minimize the abuse of alter boys, or anyone that has been abused by “christain leaders”, this really gets to the heart of the “problem of evil”, which has been, and will continue be debated for ever…

The “problem of evil” is a VERY difficult topic, if you any sense of compassion… it has led many a philospher, or in the case of the standup comedian George Carlin, to become a nilist..

Sandy,

The things most truthful are the things church bigwigs have put the most intensive effort into perverting and discrediting (now redoubling exponentially). The entire Old and New Testaments were a tract against bad religion leadership – not against people like us. Stick around.

Jeffrey J Chalmers: The “problem of evil” is a VERY difficult topic,

I agree and I don’t mean to drag us through that.
Compassion solves the problem somewhat, sometimes.

My own solution is the sometimes-God as a replacement for the Omni-God—which is itself a poor solution in my view.

May Gods love be with you.

Sandy,

I’m going to try to chime in very poorly here.
God is outside of time. He is above time.
When we are with Him in eternity, the things that don’t make sense now will make sense then.
That’s not to make light of the in-between. God doesn’t make light of it either. That’s why He gave us the psalms. “Why do the wicked prosper?” “How long, O Lord?”
It’s also why He gave us Jesus: so we could know in flesh and bone that He understands the pain.

…it’s nice to just chat…

all that’s missing is subdued lighting and a candle.

(and beverages of choice, cheese & chocolate, sprigs of various herbs to chew on, cigars… maybe some granny smith apples…)

elastigirl: maybe some granny smith apples…

… with caramel dip, please

Max,

i LOVE practical faith.

i got so sick of indulgent christian maxims with zero practical value let alone any real meaning, & no logical/ethical legs to stand on.

i’m bringing up logic and ethics multiple times tonight…

guess i find the current iteration of my religion intolerably illogical (that is to say, stupid) & cruel (to others, of course – never to self)

i’m very cheery about other topics.

Stavros,

Bernard Howard’s article is rather good:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/justin-welby-resigns/

What I think the TGC wouldn’t have permitted would be coverage of all the variable blend of truth rationing, browbeating, and false ecumenism that produced the Ravi Zacharias (devaluing the book of Daniel) situation, the Ortberg, Piper and Long situations, and the Smyth and Fletcher families’ situations in the first place. Which continues to rule the thinking of nominal opponents of Justin W now poised to invade nonconformism.

Sandy,

This doesn’t “answer” any of the questions, but Amy Grant has a song about this, ‘Ask Me’, written after hearing of 2 friends’ sexual abuse as children.

“Ask me if I think there’s a God up in the heavens
Where did He go in the middle of her shame?
Ask me if I think there’s a God up in the heavens
I see no mercy and no one down here’s naming names”

near the end of the song:
“Ask her how she knows there’s a God up in the heavens
Where did He go in the middle of her shame?
Ask her how she knows there’s a God up in the heavens
She said His mercy is bringing her life again”

elastigirl: i LOVE practical faith

Eons ago, some Baptist churches used to teach and practice “Practical Sonship”, with believers acknowledging that they are “in Christ” and living out that reality through their actions, choices and character. I suppose they got over that and are now just doing church without God in most places, not having much of an influence in the world about them.

Sandy: Yes, it’s a rollercoaster.
Sometimes God has mercy, sometimes not.
Some are brought to life again, some are not.
Those that aren’t—it’s usually not from lack of faith or love of God.
They just aren’t.

So much for hiatus….

I was reading the conversation and I’ve dechristianized with some success and am still very much alive.

If abuse has occurred, I highly recommend professional help. If there’s still belief, then there are counselors who are professionally trained and of Christian faith. If you have coverage through work then some companies have an employee assistance program, I’ve never been abused but have plugged into help with my company’s EAP.

There’s more to unpack here than a comment box can cover but ultimately god cannot solve the problem. If there is a god then it’s power flows through us. Only we can prevent fires.

God stopped talking to me quite a while ago and I’m cool with that. I got off the philosophical roller of trying to make sense of evil, and people who commit it. Often the actions and reasons can involve obsessions, or natural disaster or history or in the case of cancer – wonky DNA.

There’s no miracle fix but we can learn to cope. Some folks find comfort in prayer but it’s not required and you don’t need religion. In my experience you can fake faith but eventually you’re just spinning tires and wasting energy.

You do you but seek help if needed. As Neal DeGrasse Tyson stated “the universe is under no obligation to make sense to you”

And don’t buy into what some will tell you about life and death in religion… whether you believe or not or how you believe, you are a real person.

Jack: You do you but seek help if needed.

Thanks.
I was a big kid with a bigger Father and they left me alone, apparently.
Same in the Boy Scouts, apparently.
Some of my peers got the business.
I deeply appreciate the more secular / judicial approaches offered here at TWW.

Muff Potter,

yes, indeed… i know nothing about pickling… or herring.

but i know what flavors i like…. basil, …oregano… tarragon… thyme…

getting weird here, but does anyone ever put things like citrus rind in pickling things?

a bit of espresso?

adobo spice paste?

balsamic?

lavendar…

raspberry jam…

And Now: Cricket

At stumps on Day 3 of the First Test between Australia and India in Perth, the tourists are in a commanding position, with the hosts reduced to 12-3 in their second innings and needing an improbable 522 to win.

It’s certainly been an intriguing match; India won the toss and batted, only to be skittled for 150 – before skittling Australia in turn for 104, with 17 wickets falling on Day 1. A dominant Indian second innings followed, with both opener Jaiswal and skipper Kohli making centuries before India declared on 487-6. In fact, the extras in India’s second innings outscored everyone in both first innings. (It’s not often the extras make a half-century!)

It’ll be interesting to see whether the game is still being played when I get up tomorrow – Perth near here is 8 hours behind Perth in Western Australia. Difficult to see past an Indian win; but it is, as they say, a funny old game.

Jack,

Good comment, Jack. 🙂

Just so you know: long ago tossed any sort of self help Christian book. And yes, evil and sin are done by human beings and Christians sometimes suffer at the hands of other people. Free will and all that.

But I delight in the belief that even when it happens, God is there to comfort me. Sure beats the teaching that if I get hurt in this life and run to Him, He will give me a beat down.

But since I believe in free will, the problem of evil is not so much a problem to me. Sure God did not have to give us free will, but then we would all be predestined calvinistic dude bros, huh, lol.

And my reminder as always: know how to turn OFF any automatic donations to any group – religious or secular – when you can no longer donate to it in good conscience. If they refuse to honor your request, tell your financial institution to not process any further withdrawals from it.

Jack,

I disagree. A blog or website like this one offers a variety of views, from various perspectives, some Christian, some secular. (I would say that most only reflect the spirit of the age and confuse rather than comfort).

As for where you should go and what you should do or who you should talk to, only you can decide. Yes, read the Bible because it is God’s word. Learn about Jesus and why he came to earth because as my earlier comment said, only He is qualified to help deliver us from our present state. If you have any connection with a Christian friend talk to them. And ask God to help you. These are big steps and unusual ones for anyone to take. But you have to start somewhere. I’ll come back later to see you.

Sandy,

Indeed it is but, a bit like yourself, many people hear or read what God says about himself and the human condition and then choose to believe the exact opposite. And you’re not confused, you’re simply trying to be confrontational.

Jack: which translation of the Bible

Avoid the ESV

Sandy: .
He said— “I’ve dechristianized with some success and am still very much alive.”

For a period, calling myself a (believing) agnostic got the New Reformed (Holy Spirit deniers) with their demands out of my hair.

Jack: You stated “Go to [H]im and find rest. You won’t find it here.”

Lowlandseer, one will find God-given rest any “where”.

Lowlandseer: choose to believe

Jack and Sandy, you should infer from these random conversational fragments, in what questions and observations come to your mind, and don’t be put off. And note nearly all religion is organisational.

Further, the word is not the thing. Words always allude and when several allusions intersect, we get meanings. (The Word was God and we are made in the image of God.)

Some commenters are bored because I don’t reject the meanings of Scripture, which means I don’t (by my provisional conclusion) need to reject the words which aren’t owned by the New Reformed (who know nothing of meanings in people).

This is something to apply in all fields. Try critiquing administration and commerce (which have begun to copy bad religion): you can see when a situation, involving people who claim to own words, doesn’t add up.

Religious strongarmers panic when I mention “belief” because they want “trust” without belief. They go into what Gresham Machen calls equivocation mode (they seem to give but take away from our intellects at the same time).

The word “christian” was not trademarked by my God. In the Bible, it is a swear word – a play on the word for idiots. The New Reformed think themselves anything but idiots, they think we ordinary people with our own brains are the idiots.

There aren’t judicial remedies to what I witnessed; and the only universal one to apply is your assent to your degrees of your inference. Thus our diverse voices, reflecting the different detail in the issues we each encountered, mental stamina to reply, etc.

Michael in UK: Avoid the ESV

The real bad-boy is the “ESV Study Bible” … lots of Calvinist commentaries in the margins by folks like John Piper (the Father of New Calvinism) … the ESV Study Bible is all about indoctrinating the reader to reformed theology.

Lowlandseer: I disagree. A blog or website like this one offers a variety of views, from various perspectives, some Christian, some secular. (I would say that most only reflect the spirit of the age and confuse rather than comfort).

As for where you should go and what you should do or who you should talk to, only you can decide

There’s a lot of perspectives here that are comforting in their confusion.

In many ways I have become what I rail against…the biblical literalist.

For me the Bible did not happen as written, whether it’s the old testament where

“The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.[9]” Genesis 6:4.

Or talking animals or flying people or whupping 600 Philistines with an ox goad…take your pick.

So yeah, we’re both biblical literalists.

And we’re both commenting here.

Here’s to sowing confusion, my friend.

Addendum re ass – the speech of the ass is what I am referring to. If an ass said something, he’s the type that wouldn’t believe his own story. Whatever the whole of the concrete “how” of Balaam’s change of action, it precludes nothing. Many religion bosses discredit everything such as angels by their factual insincerity (Scripture says they are not to lord it). They rigidly impose meaninglessness on the whole of Scriptures.

Michael in UK: You mean New Reformed.

Yes, there is a distinct difference between “Old” Calvinism and “New” Calvinism. As a Southern Baptist, I occasionally encountered classical Calvinists in the churches I attended; I even counted some as friends. I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. Not so with these new kids on the block … they are militaristic, mean-spirited, and deceptive … their new and improved Calvinism has been crafted by folks like Grudem, Mohler and Piper to launch and sustain a movement that will eventually fade into obscurity.

Lowlandseer: [quoting fae elsewhere]

Only such a Jesus, as is verily God, really Immanuel, God incarnate, the true reconciler of God and man.

Go to him and find rest. You won’t find it here.

You are, perhaps, doing yourself a disservice. I’m not familiar with the passage you quoted, but the quote (if not the author) stops halfway, ISTM, between Jesus’ ascension and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Latterly, the mystery of the incarnation is not just Christ on earth, but Christ in us; or at least, Christ in you [plural]. We might have this treasure in clay jars, but that’s where it is.

You’ve spent many years reading the works of many Christian thinkers. You’re not going to tell me that in all that time, nothing of God’s love, joy, peace, faithfulness, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, self-control or love of cricket (which modern scholars agree is a better translation of ἐγκράτεια) has taken root in you. I don’t doubt that these things are less easy to manifest online than IRL, but nevertheless, there’s no reason why visitors or regulars cannot find Christ and his rest here if you are here.

Nick Bulbeck,

Hello Nick. The quote comes from a commentary on Matthew by Rev David Dickson, a Covenanter minister in Irvine a few hundred years ago and is about the Incarnation. Fully agree with you on the fruits of the Spirit. Possibly not about cricket though. lol!

Jack: And don’t buy into what some will tell you about life and death in religion… whether you believe or not or how you believe, you are a real person.

As Rich Buhler used to say on the air, “God lives in the real world”.

To which my corollary is “And too many Christians DON’T.”