“The load, or weight, or burden of my neighbour’s glory should be laid on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can carry it, and the backs of the proud will be broken.” ― The Weight of Glory
Today, The Gospel Coalition posted A Christian Response to Polygamy, Incest, and Pedophilia, written by Noah Senthil. For the rest of this post, I want to focus on the author’s thoughts on pedophilia. I am always grateful when anyone chooses to focus on the deeply troubling and complex issues surrounding pedophilia. TWW has dealt with the problems surrounding pedophilia for fifteen years. I found Senthil’s presentation somewhat superficial by bypassing the profound psychiatric disturbance of a pedophile and overlooking society’s continued support of the recognition of acts of pedophilia being designated a crime.
When I first started writing, I was concerned that I might receive considerable blowback as I continued to illuminate Christian leaders who were either pedophiles or assisted pedophiles by actively covering up their criminal activity. What I found was somewhat surprising. As I discuss this aspect of my writing, I have seen consistent support throughout social media and my broader social engagements. I got my COVID and flu shots at a local big box pharmacy today. I mentioned to the nurse that I was a nurse. She asked me what I do now. Thinking of this post, I told her I write about issues surrounding sexual abuse in the evangelical church. She exclaimed, “Thank you for doing that. It is needed.”
This is the response that I usually get. Obviously, when a pastor of a large church is credibly accused of pedophilia, we get pushback from members of the congregation who cannot believe that their pastor could do such a thing. That response shows that the average person finds the accusation of pedophilia so disgusting that they cannot imagine their pastor committing such a heinous act.
My husband observed that the loathing of sexual acts against children knows no political boundaries. It is my experience that folks of opposing political parties will agree that sexual acts against children are detestable. This is one reason I do not allow political discussions on my blog. I believe that many issues I discuss have no political boundaries.
Although I am appreciative of the author’s intent, I need to address some concerns with his thoughts on pedophilia.
Pedophilia is not the same thing as polyamory or incest.
The author argues that all of the following are examples of sexual sin.
Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage and the beauty of chastity against the pagan practices of the modern age, so what follows is a biblical and theological response to polygamy, pedophilia, and incest.
The problem with arguing from sin is this lessens the act of pedophilia to simply sin. Sin can simply be dealt with by stated repentance and forgiveness. Pedophilia may be a sin, but it is also, in most instances, evidence of a severe psychiatric disorder that, if indulged, is a crime in the United States. It is not normal for an adult to be sexually interested in a child. Also, a child is unable to give consent for the sexual act, unlike multiple adults might do in polyamory.
Incest, when practiced against a child, is a crime and may be indicative of a serious psychiatric disorder. In some cultures, incest is acceptable for consanguinous marriages. If that marriage is between consenting adults of age, it falls outside my concerns for the problems of pedophilia.
While it’s still fairly taboo in Western culture, consanguineous marriage is common in Northern Africa and the Middle East,
Is acceptance of pedophilia really on the ballot in California?
According to the author:
This November, California residents will vote on Proposition 3, which seeks to remove language in the California constitution stating that marriage is between one man and one woman. But this isn’t merely an attempt to match the Supreme Court decision Obergefell v. Hodges (2015). According to the opposing argument in the General Election voter guide,
Proposition 3 removes all rules for marriage, opening the door to child marriages, incest, and polygamy. It changes California’s constitution even though same-sex marriage is already legal. By making moms and dads optional, it puts children at risk. This careless measure harms families and society.
But take a closer look at the voter guide.
Amends California Constitution to recognize fundamental right to marry, regardless of sex or race. Removes language in California Constitution stating that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
It states there is a change in the right to marry regardless of sex or race. It did not say “regardless of age.” I understand that the conservative Christian community believes that marriage is between one man and one woman and that, as such, does not support polyamorous or same-sex marriage. I would also agree that polyamorous marriages might be confusing to a child. But I would also point out that many Christians have had multiple divorces and remarriages, which also might cause children to be confused.
“Minor-attracted persons” is usually the language of pedophiles.
Years ago, many Christians were concerned about NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association.) Over time, I believe it has not been the influence that was feared. Senthil said:
As with polygamy, some have attempted to destigmatize and decriminalize pedophilia in recent years, referring to pedophiles as “minor-attracted persons,” as if it were simply one of many sexual orientations.
I took a look at that article on Fox. Prof who said pedophiles should be called ‘minor-attracted persons’ agrees to resign. The title of the article makes my point. The professor got canned for expressing this.
A Virginia university assistant professor who argued it wasn’t necessarily immoral for adults to be sexually attracted to kids has agreed to resign after facing intense backlash.
Old Dominion University revealed in a statement Wednesday that Allyn Walker, 34, will be stepping down as an assistant professor of sociology and criminal justice.
Walker was placed on administrative leave on Nov. 16 after a firestorm erupted over the educator’s controversial argument that pedophiles should be referred to as “minor-attracted persons.”
…Walker, who has written a book titled “A Long Dark Shadow: Minor-Attracted People and Their Pursuit of Dignity”, had earlier acknowledged that the use of the term “minor-attracted persons” suggests to some that it’s OK to be attracted to children.
Perhpas, this ex-professor might be struggling himself. Again, the system worked. Most people find pedophilia abhorrent.
The internet has been a Serengeti for pedophiles.
We often forget that the internet is a relatively new tool for people. Just like it has helped me to sound the warning about abuses in the church like pedophilia, it has allowed pedophiles the ability to find victims. It used to be thought that a pedophile was a weird guy in a trench coat hanging around children’s playgrounds and schools. Pedophiles can easily find victims online. This is where Senthil and I agree. he said:
According to 41 police stations in the U.K., there was an 84 percent increase in online grooming crimes over four years (2018–22). The internet has increased and enabled grooming at an alarming rate: there are around 500,000 predators active online everyday, and an estimated 89 percent of sexual advances toward children happen through online chat rooms or instant messaging.
We now know that many children have been abused. Stenhil states.
According to 41 police stations in the U.K., there was an 84 percent increase in online grooming crimes over four years (2018–22). The internet has increased and enabled grooming at an alarming rate: there are around 500,000 predators active online everyday, and an estimated 89 percent of sexual advances toward children happen through online chat rooms or instant messaging.
That statistic comes from the NIH, which has been doing groundbreaking work in the study of pedophiles.
It is my hope that anyone who wishes to comment on the rise of pedophilia in the US would go to the NIH to read such studies as The Neurobiology and Psychology of Pedophilia: Recent Advances and Challenges.
We focus on some of the recent theories on the etiology of pedophilia such as the concept of a general neurodevelopmental disorder and/or alterations of structure and function in frontal, temporal, and limbic brain areas. With this approach, we aim to not only provide an update and overview but also a framework for future research and to address one of the most significant questions of how pedophilia may be explained by neurobiological and developmental alterations.
“Pedophilia is a sin” needs to be a much longer sentence.
Senthil says:
The obvious position of Christianity, since the inception of the early church, is that pedophilia is an evil and grievous sin.
…In local churches, we need to be prepared to minister to sexual sinners and answer pressing questions about the consequences of their actions…How do you love the victims well? How do you forgive a predator? This requires wisdom and courage.
… We must be willing to send someone to prison and then visit him with the good news that Christ sets prisoners free from sin’s bondage. Polygamists, pedophiles, and incesters can all be changed by God’s grace.
Senthil will get no argument from me that pedophilia is “an evil and grievous sin. “But to say that a polygamist can be changed and set free is far easier than saying that a pedophile can be set free. About 50% of pedophiles offend. That means 50 % do not. Why are the 50% of those who do not offend still called pedophiles? They are pedophiles because they recognize their compulsions and try hard, most with professional help, not to give in. According to studies by the NIH, most pedophiles deal with their tendencies for their entire lives. That is with intensive psychiatrists, medications, counselors, and family support. Sadly, many who offend will do so again, even with intervention.
To put polygamy and pedophilia into the same basket is naive and dangerous.
How do you forgive a predator?
One other point is necessary. How do you forgive a predator? Jesus can forgive the predator if he is genuinely repentant. But I have seen a worrisome trend. Church leaders “forgive” the predator, but they were not the ones who were harmed. That is the prerogative of the victim. I have seen predators forgiven by church leaders and put into leadership positions in churches. Yet, no one in that church asks about the victim. Has the predator made amends? Are they seeking the long, challenging road of living a sorrowful, repentant life? Or is the church giving cheap grace again because it makes them feel good?
I once had a man write to me to say that he was proud to be in a church in which pedophiles are his brothers. I asked him if the victims agreed with him. He never answered. I doubt he ever considered the victims.
Early in my blog, I wrote about Don Cameron, who attended an Anglican church where I warned the pastor of his past. The pastor said that the parole officer said he would not be a problem. Cameron had a 30-year history of multiple abuses. The church supported him, and I left the church. He had molested some kids in his neighborhood and, after eight months in prison, moved back into his home. A friend and I implored him to leave the neighborhood. We knew him due to a personal relationship. The neighbors were hurting and couldn’t believe he was back. The church had men come and move him away. In the middle of the move, with us and neighbors observing, the men hugged Don and yucked it up with him. The neighbors standing in the street, whose children were harmed, were ignored. This blog allowed them to have some outlet for their feelings.
When I left the church and told the pastor to keep an eye on him (See the note I published), a year or so later, he was kicked out for some incident.
I think TGC’s article, although well intended, fell far short of demonstrating an understanding of the severe and complex problems surrounding pedophiles, the community, law enforcement, and the church. Always remember the victims!
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“I think TGC’s article, although well intended, fell far short of demonstrating an understanding of the severe and complex problems surrounding pedophiles, the community, law enforcement, and the church. Always remember the victims!”
100%.
“Consanguineous marriage” – I had to look that one up!
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He did say this: “In local churches, we need to be prepared to minister to sexual sinners and answer pressing questions about the consequences of their actions. Should a man in a polygamous marriage opt for divorce? What if they have children? What about incestuous or pedophilic marriages? How do you love the victims well? ”
The nature of a short essay like that at TGC necessitates leaving some things out. I am not critical of you, Dee. I love you and support what you do, and you will see why later in my response. However, the way you wrote this, talking about a church that was proud to have pedophiles as members, almost seems to indicate that Senthil was promoting that. I don’t think he was. One of your main emphases is sexual predators, and if you were writng that article, you would spend a long time talking about the victims and how we must support them, defend them, be their advocates, protect them, and not spend any time at all talking about forgiving the perpetrators. I agree with that. I am a victim of pedophilia.
When I was 10 years old, I was sexually molested by a family friend. It was not just a touch. It was forced oral sex. I never told anyone until I was 30 years old. It devastated my mind and psyche and my emotional life. I was an alcoholic by age 20, having had numerous sexual partners, and running from one relationship to another in a desperate attempt to find someone I could trust. When I was 19, I saw the man who sexually abused me at a private gym. He was with a 16 or 17 year old boy. I raged. I wanted to bash his head in and scream to this kid, “Get away from this pedophile.” But I didn’t, because I had never dealt with my guilt and shame. I had this niggling feeling that somehow I was somewhat at fault. I was a tortured man. When I was 20, my car broke down on the way home from a late night at college, a 35 mile drive, so I hitchhiked (this was 1982). A man picked me up and proceeded to try and get me to act out in a homosexual manner. As we were driving, I made my mind up that if he stopped the car and touched me, I was going to kill him. I’ve never admitted that to anyone. The inner rage drove me to drugs, alcohol, hatred and distrust of people, addiction to porn, and a myriad of other issues. I never sought help until I was 40. Mark Laaser, a nationally known expert on sexual addiction, worked with me to dig up the sources of my inner demons. His compassion, his patience, his knowledge of the way sexual abuse destroys a child’s life opened me up to dealing with these hidden painful things. It took years. I tell you all that so you know that I am not spewing Calvinista rhetoric, because as you know, I am a Calvinist.
Senthill did say “How do you love the victims well?” He asked a lot of questions but did not provide many answers to them. And I am guessing that the limitations on the length of the article prohibited him from answering all of his questions. So I understand why he only asked the question.
In my mind, that is the biggest question. How do you love the victims well? In the case of Steve Lawson or Robert Morris (Or any other man who commits similar predatory acts), I am not concerned for them much. These are men who professionally studied the Bible. They know enough people to get help themselves. It is the devastated victims who are too ashamed, too emotionally devastated, too afraid to even talk to anyone about it. They just want it to go away. Some of them dream of bashing in the skull of the man who violated them. In my case, I encountered him again shortly after the fist time and he attempted it again and I made a public disturbance. And yes, I day-dreamed for many years of going back to my hometown and finding him and killing him. Others are not so fortunate. Cindy Clemishire was abandoned by church leaders who said they worked with Morris and restored him. Why did they not pursue Cindy and restore her? My view is that it is money, fame, and self promotion that are the motives that drive church leaders, and the arduous work involved in ministering to victims leads to the opposite. The loss of money (It costs money for counseling), no fame and promotion of a hurting individual is not self promoting. It takes a lot of committment and time. Jesus was more concerned with “little ones’ than with the Pharisees and Saduccees and lawyers whom he regularly and publicly denounced. We should be too.
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“But I would also point out that many Christians have had multiple divorces and remarriages”
In many “churches”, THIS is the unpardonable sin, not sexual crimes against children. The very idea that one can be divorced and still be a Christian is unthinkable to them.
But a pedophile in their ranks? Ack. A little counseling, a little repentance, and the perp is welcomed back into the fold and often into the ministry.
The victim must forgive, or else!
Meanwhile the divorced person figuratively has a red “D” tattooed on their forehead and is banned from ministry for life.
I agree with your post, and also your insistance that victims should be the primary focus of care and concern.
Quite often the church victimizes the victims again and again while giving perps a pass because of their ignorance on the psychology and refusal to see these acts as crimes.
But then again, a whole lot of churches are really good at creating victims.
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This post does not distinguish among the ages of children who are the objects of pedophilic attention. The common definition is pre-pubescent attraction, which seems to be the subject of this post. However, the public often lumps an attraction to older children into the same category, confusing the discussion. Attraction to children in late adolescence is common, and probably not an illness, but rather a violation of norms and laws.
In any case—hands off.
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“If [consanguineous] marriage is between consenting adults of age, it falls outside my concerns for the problems of pedophilia. ‘While it’s still fairly taboo in Western culture, consanguineous marriage is common in Northern Africa and the Middle East …’ ”
While cousin-marriage – often generation after generation – is a separate issue from pedophilia, it is not a separate issue from abuse and coercion. It’s not a separate issue from the marriage of children (under 18) to much older adults.
Turning 18 does not cause a person in an oppressive, high-control culture to suddenly have the personal capacity and social agency to make free decisions about marriage and sex. In outlawing consanguineous marriage – even including “social family” such as in-laws or godparent relationships – Western Christianity was recognizing that pressure and lack of options can make “consent” meaningless.
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I suspect that part of the problem of simplistic characterization of paraphilias as “sin” is that it typically overlooks the failure to conform to the pervasive Biblical commands to “love neighbor as self”, to value the other person’s interests and well-being above the gratification of one’s own desires. Paraphiliac sinners are commanded to repent of their acts, but the underlying disregard of the interests of potential victims is not addressed, and there is consequently little internal restraint on further offenses.
Come to think of it, this — the preference for one’s own perceived interests above one’s neighbor’s == is probably a problem that contributes to the failure of many Christian marriages.
Are the churches any good at teaching people to “love neighbor as self”?
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Totally off topic but prayers please: some vip, some trivial. The vip: grandkid is in the path of Milton in Florida, but on the east coast. School ordered evacuations. Our kiddo lives off campus and is hunkering down to ride it out since the rains are already insanely heavy and the roads jam packed with others trying to get to Georgia. The super at the apartment complex have had crews out taping the windows, securing everything they can, etc.
The minor: back to the doc today. Ear is still clogged and at times getting some pain in the sinus areas and in the back of the skull, so may have to schedule it drained.
And we are having problems with some of our tech. After the doc I will spend the afternoon likely on the phone with tech support from our isp. Last night I was 4 hours or so on the phone with tech support from a device. I will wait until after I see the doc so my bp is not through the rough, lol.
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In my humble (but accurate) opinion, we have become so open-minded about sexual sin in America that our brains have fallen out!
In Missouri this week, a federal judge ruled that sex offenders are no longer required to post “No candy” warning signs outside of their homes on Halloween, ruling that the state’s Halloween law was unconstitutional. The law, in effect since 2008, stated that registered sex offenders cannot go outside to interact with children, cannot have outside lights on, and are required to post a sign stating “no candy or treats” are available at the home on Halloween night.
Why remove protections for children?!!
If the Church diminishes sexual sin by both pulpit & pew, particularly those against children, what wall remains in our nation?
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Well, conisdering all those Mighty and Godly MenaGAWD (Touch Not Mine Anointed!) who are into both, some Sin-Levelling is desperately needed. Must threateen the Tithing Units with the same GOD’s Wrath to which their Godly Betters are immune.
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What I WANNA, of course.
(nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know that I mean…)
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Technically, California has no age limit on marriages and requires parental and judicial approval (along with NM, OK, and MS). This has nothing to do with the proposition, they just want to equate homosexuality to pedophilia. By the way, if you are a Christian who wants to fight child sex crimes, you should be in favor of age-appropriate comprehensive sex education. Teaching children about their own bodies, consent, what is appropriate even from a young age can help children understand when they are being abused. Ignorance only helps pedophiles get away with their abuse. But I bet TGC would call such programs “porn” or “grooming”.
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Which regions have a common dominant religion locking in the Arab tribal culture at the time of its origin by Divine Command.
The Saudis are at the point that half-brother/half-sister marriages are OK, as long as the two have different mothers from the harem. Must keep all that wealth and power in the Family, whether that wealth is a hundred oilfields or a flock of six goats at the edge of the Empty Quarter.
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Attraction to PRE-pubescent children is Pedophilia.
Attraction to POST-pubescent but still legally-underage adolescents is Hebephilia or Ehebephilia.
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Thank you for your kind comment. I do appreciate you as well.
But why did he do this post? Pedophilia is a complex, pervasive, lifelong problem. To put it in with polyamory is silly. Polyamory is solved by saying, “Stop marrying all those women.” It is an entirely different situation from a pedophile who is dealing with a complex system failure.
Why do you think I wrote this? It indicates a pervasive problem within the church. Repent, and all is well. I think the problem runs far more profound due to the theology in these churches. Not only is pedophilia a problem, but the general understanding of law and grace appears to be whacked in the pews, which means the problem is even more complex.
Your story is painful, and your anger and rage are understandable. I am so sorry. I am glad you have found comfort in your theology, as I have found in mine. This was not a treatise on Calvinism, and I avoided that discussion. I would have written this post if a Catholic had written it.
I don’t. The three sins he mentioned should not even be in the same category. How they are handled is entirely different. If one wants to minister to a pedophile, he should be aware that this is a lifelong commitment with a high probability of reoffense that will destroy another life.
If he had said, “We need to care better for the victims of pedophilia, I would have been on board. But he mixed caring for the victims with caring for the pedophile.
“We need to be prepared to minister to sexual sinners and answer pressing questions about the consequences of their actions…How do you love the victims well? How do you forgive a predator? This requires wisdom and courage.”
I have been doing this for 15 years. I am frustrated by the broader church’s response to pedophilia. “It’s just a sin, and he’s repented.” Pedophilia is an entirely different problem; I’m not sure the author understands it.
Thank you for sharing about your abuse. If I can help beyond praying, please let me know.
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Anyone who preaches “sin-levelling” when it comes to sexual abuse of children need to be leveled!
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That’s awful. Guess we need to protect the pedophile’s fragile ego.
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Tumbleweed,
Great comment.
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/judge-rules-missouri-sex-offenders-no-longer-need-post-warning-signs-outside-homes-halloween
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From the article
“Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage and the beauty of chastity against the pagan practices of the modern age, so what follows is a biblical and theological response to polygamy, pedophilia, and incest.”
Since when was monogamy biblical? The old testament is rife with polygamy. Jesus mentioned divorce but never stated explicitly that polygamy was forbidden.
Judea had been under the Seleucids (descendants of one of Alexander’s generals). Monogamy was from Greek law and the Romans who came after them. Monogamy became the standard under pagan influence, certainly not from old testament Israel!
Monogamy became default European law as Europe was basically made of Roman successor states. It was exported thence worldwide via colonialism (including the north america).
Yes, there’s other monogamous cultures but they weren’t “biblical”.
Full disclosure, I am completely monogamous, not a biblical person… Ave, Caesar!
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IMO, the proliferation of New Calvinism has clouded that distinction even more. I can take you to NeoCal YRR church plants in my area where “grace” covers just about anything!
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What don’t these guys understand?
Child sex abuse is a FELONY</b) in all fifty States.
It's not a 'sin', problem it's a LAW problem.
Like I keep harpin’, sooner or later there’s gonna’ be a bombshell case that goes to trial in which Chester (the molester) is convicted.
And if the pastor and/or the elders tried to cover it up?
They’ll go down as accessories.
End of rant.
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Yes, that’s the point, whether it’s the Saudi royal family – “an irreproducible laboratory of genetic defects,” according to an article I read by a doctor – or a Gujarati or Pakistani taking a 12-year-old, American-born daughter back to Asia to be married to a first cousin.
I agree with Dee that pedophilia is a psychological disorder that has a different set of issues from polygamy, incest, or plain old promiscuity. However, I think it’s helpful to remember that “consenting adult” is weak tea as a moral or ethical guide. We wouldn’t talk about “adult clergy sexual abuse” if there weren’t more going on, even when a person was an adult and did the behaviors of their own free will, without coercion.
I once read, “Consent is the ‘Yes’ you say when there are no negative consequences for saying ‘No’.” That’s a very high bar, and without trying to apply it in every situation, I think it’s worth remembering that situations of polygamy, consanguineous marriage, or incest between “consenting adults” are situations with profound power dynamics and culture pressure.
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Muff Potter,
We can only hope and pray for this. There are a whole lotta church bodies who would be decimated by such a scandal. Felony is a word parents and guardians need to learn well.
Wish my own had done so.
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Pastors can talk about healing the pedophile, after the guy has done his prison time.
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Yep … don’t call “pastor”, call 911!
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Actually pre-Christian Rome generally frowned upon first cousin marriages (Emperors tended to be somewhat above the law) and the Western Christian church inherited much of Roman law. In early medieval times the Catholic Church banned marriages up to and including fifth cousin marriages though dispensations could be granted (this made it fairly easy for those with influence to get an annulment since just about every noble was a fifth cousin or closer of just about every other noble within the same area and for royals within Christendom; you just had to search for the connection when wanting to get out of a marriage). This was later lowered to third cousins, then second cousins, and finally first cousins in the early 20th century (note dispensations could still be gotten and had been gotten up to and including uncle/niece marriages). The Protestant Reformation led most of the Protestant churches to allow first cousin marriages though not nearer. There was a counter movement in the 19th century to ban first cousin marriages in some states and countries.
I’m not sure what the Gospel Coalition is defining as sinfully “consanguineous”. The Bible has Abraham describing Sarah as his paternal half-sister. Isaac married his first cousin once removed. Jacob married two of his first cousins who were also his second cousins once removed. Most of Western Europe allows first cousin marriages as do a number of US States.
In a high-control culture it might even be safer for a woman to marry someone within her extended family (first or second cousin) so you still have your family connections close at hand to fall back on than to be married to someone completely unknown outside the family who can cut any family connections (it is not as though she has much choice in such a culture who she marries).
The best solution is to enable the individual so they can make a free choice. Don’t permit early marriages and make sure each individual before they reach the marriage age has a good education and the power to walk away from family if necessary.
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Sorry for repeating this but it does bear repeating since it fits. In Luke, as Jesus hung on the cross with the criminals:
Two others, both criminals, were led out to be executed with him. 33 When they came to a place called The Skull,[a] they nailed him to the cross. And the criminals were also crucified—one on his right and one on his left.
34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”[b] And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.[c]
35 The crowd watched and the leaders scoffed. “He saved others,” they said, “let him save himself if he is really God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.” 36 The soldiers mocked him, too, by offering him a drink of sour wine. 37 They called out to him, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!” 38 A sign was fastened above him with these words: “This is the King of the Jews.”
39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!”
40 But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”
43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Note: Jesus did not spare the criminals their punishment here on Earth. What happens after is God’s business but it appears that repentence does not mean a “get out of crucifixion” card. And the key word is repentence. Pedophiles are only repentent when caught.
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Erp,
Excellent observations, and I agree with the conclusion.
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a Safe Space for his Pwecious Feewings.
This is the sort of crap that makes vigilante lynchings look like a good alternative.
Never mind the Alpha of Alpha Males flexing their Real Manly Manhood.
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Bob M,
So sorry for your horrible experience(s), and thanks for sharing.
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Praying for your grandchild….
I’m so sorry….and if you have to have it drained, I hope it helps. 🙂
Hopefully you can get your tech fixed. 🙂
And no offence to anyone intended 🙂 ….I just find it ironic. I wonder how many people have to delay what they’d planned to do until they’ve had time to calm down after seeing their doctor?
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I’m so, so sorry….
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That.
Although many people — including many governments — are against it, I’ve been saying for YEARS that children need to be taught comprehensive age-appropriate sex education. Not just as a possible prevention against grooming and abusers, but so they (the children) have a better idea of what to expect when things like puberty happen. WAY to many children are blind-sided by this lack of knowledge. And I’m getting REALLY tired of the cop-out argument “parents are the ones to teach sex education to their child / children”. Clearly, parents have NOT been teaching their children the basic facts for a very long time. And this lack of knowledge has become intergenerational.
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Bob M,
Hell is hot and Hell is long for those who abuse children.
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dee,
I don’t think that the writer of this article isthe ne who put them in the same sentnce.
It is the voter guide he is wuoting that does that.
https://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/propositions/3/
The con arguemtns says
“Proposition 3 removes all rules for marriage, opening the door to child marriages, incest, and polygamy. It changes California’s constitution even though same-sex marriage is already legal. By making moms and dads optional, it puts children at risk. This careless measure harms families and society. Vote No on Proposition 3.”
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Let’s add homeschooling, which many conservative Christians love. John Oliver did a program on this recently. Homeschooling is a way for child abusers to hide their crimes. Teachers can notice signs of abuse, but withdrawing children from society prevents others from seeing these signs. There should be more oversight and regulation of homeschooling.
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“Christians must be able to defend the sanctity of monogamous, male-female marriage”
+++++++++++++++
so what’s this big bunch of big words all about…
“sanctity: 1. holiness of life and character : godliness 2. a : the quality or state of being holy or sacred”
ok.
“holy: dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred”
hmmmm.
“sacred: connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.”
.
.
i had to look these up.
nah, i don’t really know what any of this means.
partly because i’ve seen obnoxious, fake, and detestable people & things described as “holy”
while people and things that really & truly resemble Jesus of Nazareth are castigated because they weren’t the right kind of people and things. didn’t have the right label.
and partly because it’s an expression of christians taking themselves so darn seriously.
Adults commit to each other in faithfulness because of love. it’s a beautiful thing, end of story.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
You really do not know much about how most Saudis live. I have been in Saudi homes, had Saudi ESL students – gotten to know their families.
Perhaps it might be wise to learn more? B/c that whole “harem” comment is particularly offensive. While Muslim men are permitted to be married to up to 3 women, that’s the absolute limit. Most Muslims have one spouse. That’s *it.* I don’t know of any predominantly- or partly-Muslim country where plural marriages are the norm.
Honestly, it upsets me when you say things like this, b/c you’re smart enough to know better. On behalf of all the Saudi women and girls I’ve known, I’m p.o.’d. Muslims get enough hassles and outright hatred in this country, but it’s Muslim women who bear the brunt of it.
I’m sorry for getting angry, but please… take some time to learn. Maybe there aure community events or projects where you could get to know some Muslim folks? Honestly, most every Muuslim I’ve known (born here + immigrants) is a lovely person; they tend to be much more friendly and welcoming than most white people in the US, tbh. I’ve been an honorary “auntie” to a couple of kids who are adults now, and i really miss some of those families, neighbors, business associates.
Fwiw, i have (white) friends from here who all lived in the Kingdom for extended periods of time. I’d be more than happy to put you in touch, if you’d like. I know they can explain things *far* better than I ever could.
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“The problem with arguing from sin is this lessens the act of pedophilia to simply sin. Sin can simply be dealt with by stated repentance and forgiveness.”
+++++++++++++++
i get really irritated with the word “sin”. because one size fits all. and grace covers all.
whatever repentance is, i don’t recall ever seeing it match personal responsibility.
i don’t recall ever seeing it fully take into account the consequences unleashed on others as a result of the actions known as “sin”.
but i have seen my fellow christians exploit human beings by co-opting the concept of “grace” to show off. to draw attention to themselves & how they operate in “grace” so well.
(i fully acknowledge right and wrong exist, and that God is on the side of “right”)
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researcher,
THIS
And NO, pedophilia is *not* like polyamory.
I can’t.
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Polygamy did not end up utterly banned within European Judaism until about 1000 CE, when a famous French rabbi named Gershom ben Judah ruled that polygamy is prohibited. He also ruled that women could not be divorced against their will (very important in an era when women were limited in what work they could do to support themselves) and also prohibited reading another person’s private mail. N.B. this did not apply to Jews who lived in the Levant and other Jewish groups dropped polygamy as they migrated to countries where it was illegal. And it is my understanding that Israel banned polygamy in 1977.
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That fifth cousin rule was a great way for clerics to make money bringing cases for dispensation (approving of the marriage) or annulments (declaring a marriage invalid) to Rome during the Middle Ages. It was *easy* to fall into being related to a 5th cousin given the way families intermarried. But I can guarantee that nobody was worried too much about serfs being distant cousins, only the people with the money. I’m related to six US presidents fifth cousin or closer.
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researcher,
Good points all.
Then why won’t they implement it?
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numo,
My dentist is an Egyptian Muslim, and I’d vouch for him before I’d vouch for several fundagelicals I could name.
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Pedophilia is not in that sentence, and that was his title. I think the voter guide was wise not to do so.
He said, “Polygamists, pedophiles, and incesters can all be changed by God’s grace.”
Pedophilia is a whole different problem, involving severe psychiatric problems that are lifelong in putting children at risk.
I know my answer frustrates you, but I believe the author is overlooking the peculiar dangers of pedophilia. If you look at last night’s post, you will see what I mean. It fits this scenario perfectly.
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While it’s still fairly taboo in Western culture, consanguineous marriage is common in Northern Africa and the Middle East,
A retired relative has been tracing back his family tree as a way to keep busy. He has most of it going back 8 generations. He says there are a lot of marriages of second cousins. And a non trivial number with first cousins. This is in the US. When walking was how most people traveled the choices were slim out in the rural farmlands.
Also the various consumer DNA sites/services have discovered that pregnancy due to incest is way more frequent than most anyone would have thought just a few years ago.
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dee,
It doesn’t frustrate me. I just read the whole article and I see it differently. I respect you, greatly, and maybe from my perspective, it seems that you don’t trust anyne at TGC.
He had a whole section on how horrible pedophilia is.
“There’s something especially wicked about abusing a child. Herman Bavinck lists sex with children as a “sin against nature.” Song of Songs repeatedly warns against awakening love before its time (2:7; 3:5; 8:4); how much more should we rebuke those who awaken “love” before the natural maturation timeline of a child? The Mosaic law has clear laws against rape (e.g., Deut. 22:13–29), and we’re right to call sex with minors a form of it (i.e., “statutory rape”). Jesus said, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin” (Luke 17:2). The vulnerable and helpless are most precious in God’s kingdom, and their abusers will not go unpunished.”
So, I don’t think that this writer is as far away frm you as you think I know there are some people who are part of that whole YRR group who are despicable. I agree. I just don’t see it in this article.
I am wondering why my comments all of a sudden are on automatic moderation. Have I offended you or broken rules?
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I agree.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Here’s what one of my friends who lived in Saudi Arabia had to say –
“Cousin marriage is common, but I’ve never heard of half-sibling marriage. Maybe it occurs, I don’t know. Harems exist in history and the movies. Some Saudis do take more than one wife; they are allowed four, as you know. Plural marriage occurs, yes, but is not common. Do they have affairs outside of marriage? Of course; just like men all over the world. It’s acually more difficult to have an affar in the Kingdom because of the pervasive segregation of men and women. To have an affair requires a lot of planning and logistical arrangements. Then, you cannot risk being seen in public with a partner who is not your spouse or sibling. In my day, the religious police patroled public places watching for unmarried couples sociallizing together. Even between man and wife, no hand holding or casual kissng was tolerated in public. Hotels did not let rooms to unmarried couples. In fact, single unmarried women could rarely find a hotel that would rent them a room! These mores applied to the greater population, but Saudi men of wealth could often circumvent them with impunity. People living in the Kingdom are just like people living everywhere esle. “Where there is a will, there is a way.” ”
My bad on wives in my earlier post. The thing is, not many Saudis are wealthy enough to be able to support more than 1 spouse + kids. The picture we have of Saudis with money to burn is inaccurate. There are blue- and white-collar folks, and there are poor people, too. The people I worked with came from modest backgrounds, with one slight exception – and that family didn’t flaunt their money. They already had 3 kids and were about to have a 4th.
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Muff Potter,
I hear you! There are good, decent people everywhere, as well as bad ones. Majority-Muslim countries are no different in that respect.
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elastigirl,
elastigirl, you might be interested in Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg’s book On Repentance and Repair. It’s far more on the nose than anything I’ve ever seen within Christianity (to date), it’s thorough (ditto) and very readable.
Disclaimer: I’ve been hanging out on her blog for a good while. It attracts people of many faiths and none, and boy, does she make me think! So do a lot of the commenters. You can find it at lifeisasacredtext.com (Monday posts are public; Thursday posts aren’t, unless people can’t afford to subscribe. She isn’t in pastoral work now, and is trying to make her living via writing, speaking engagements, consultant gigs and such.)
As within Judaism, questions and questioning are the norm, which I love. I think you’d appreciate her recent Monday series on Jesus (published during July – the beginning of September, though she skipped some weeks in order to accomodate certain other writers and topics). Best to start with the 1st post in the series – jumping in later on might be confusing. (It woild be for me.)
Hope this is helpful! I think it’s very consonant with what Jesus taught. Paul… eh; yes and no. (Paul is not my favorite when it comes to Biblical interpretation, with a few exceptions. Anyway!) I think folks here would all appreciate the book I just recommended. It’s for everyone, really.
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numo,
Oh! Link – https://danyaruttenberg.net/books/on-repentance-and-repair
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numo,
Also, if people can’t afford to subscribe, she asks that they drop her a line. All are welcome. 🙂
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numo,
Thanks, numo! I’ll have it on my list of things to check out! Good to see you. Hope life is treating you well.
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elastigirl,
I hope the same for you! B/c RDR’s book focuses on the whole process (including repair and restitution), and is extremely practical, it just zooms right past just about everything from the Xtian world I’ve ever encountered.
My hunch is that our views (Xtian) on repentance and forgiveness are not what people understood from Jesus’ teaching. Some steps that were (probably) assumed in the earliest days, when followers of Christ were predominantly Jewish, got left behind (I’m guessing) once Rome made Xtianity legal and the vast majority of converts = gentiles. (Also people who saw opportunities for power of many kinds, since it was increasingly inseparable from the state.)
I’m sure there have been Xtians throughout history who lived and taught the practical aspects of repentance and repair, but you know… the emphasis on *sin* seems to have swallowed up a lot else. Especially once the church started declaring that individuals and various groups of Christians were heterodox or outright heretics. (I’ve been told that I’m heterodox by someone who joined the LCMS, and he was being polite.)
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elastigirl,
Things are OK here. Although I *really* need to get set up for a knee replacement. (Well, 2, but not at the same time!!!)
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Observant Outsider,
Very little data exists to show a difference in correlations between homeschooling versus other models and abuse.
In other words, people who homeschool are no more or less neglectful or abusive than people who send kids to public or private schools.
Here is a study that attempts to look at the issue with available tools / sources.
“We find no clear association between a child’s school sector and his or her experiences of abuse and neglect while growing up”
“Instead of school sector, our data reveal that demographics bear a strong correlation with child abuse and neglect. ”
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15582159.2022.2108879#d1e7808
Perhaps this question should be asked: How do so many public school students suffer neglect or abuse given they come in contact with so many mandatory reporters?
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Observant Outsider,
Thank you for mentioning that John Oliver did an episode on homeschooling. 🙂 I used to watch him online periodically, but I just don’t have time for all the things I want / like / need to watch / read / do, etc. 🙂 I did a quick Google Search and found the specific episode you referred to — I’ve not yet had time to watch to it, but I’ve bookmarked it for watching 🙂 ….and if it’s like the episode he did a number of years ago on how easy it is to start a church in the U.S., his homeschooling one will be good. 🙂
I’m not including the link to John Oliver’s homeschooling episode, but the name of the episode is: Homeschooling: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.
Homeschooling can go either way….
For examples: Some people homeschool their children because their child mightn’t learn very well in the “typical” school classrooms that are usually found in the local schools. Some people live in an area that is very restrictive in their teaching, and they want their child (or children) to be exposed to a wider range of subjects, or, perhaps, those subjects in greater detail.
Yet some people homeschool their children to, basically, keep them in cult thinking. (Omitting a long list of examples, many of which — but not all — are “Christian”.) And some of these homeschooling parents don’t even realize that they are perpetuating cult thinking. It becomes intergenerational.
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Where I live — and I’m so sorry Muff Potter, for my safety and protection, I need to omit some helpful, explanatory details — it’s like my part of the country is “going backwards in time”.
For example, the public schools were teaching comprehensive, age-appropriate sex education. Now, not only are they willy-nilly changing the school curricula (even though some of the new curricula has been proven to be inaccurate), they are limiting many parents ability — especially those with limited finances — to choose a more thorough option (and I don’t mean private or charter schools). Some kinds of basic, public school education have now become like some kinds of extracurricular activities — only those who have the finances can afford it.
There are MANY times when I’m watching the news I want to whack the people responsible for these changes upside the head with a board.
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researcher,
Seriously??!!! I’d say i find this hard to believe, except that… I don’t, really. Let’s just assume that I have a friend who might live in the same geographical region as you, or close enough. I’ve heard/read some pretty disturbing things about said region, and have asked said friend about it. S/he says they’re true.
I feel bad for you guys – you’re generally far more progressive (socially) than we are. But I guess this, too, shall pass.
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nmgirl,
Or not. I couldn’t trust them, ever.
Full disclosure: I know someone who has a male sibling who is a pedophile. The acquaintance’s siblings are evangelical. After this person was arrested the last time (that I know of) the evangelicals in the family made a big production about “forgiving” the offender, before that person was sent to prison. (Not their 1st prison term for sexually assaulting kids.) My acquaintance isn’t evangelical. S/he wanted absolutely *no* part of the “forgiveness” act. I very much agree with him/her. (I’m using ambiguous pronouns b/c you just never know what will come up in a search engine; this situation is recognizable and I’d prefer to keep as many identifying details private as i possibly can.)
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ed note: I just had to approve my own comment since it was moderated.
Bob M,
I do not think that he had a firm handle on the problem of pedophilia except for “it’s bad.” My experience with dealing with these groups is they are naive about the ability to free a pedophile from their compulsions, and that is where I stand on this post and many others by this group. SEe the next post.
One only has to look at the mess the SBC has made of sex abuse to understand why TGC causes me to pause. Yes, TGC is made up of a ton of Reofmred SBC folks and keep an eye on the PCA for concerns in this area as well.
As for not trusting TGC, Joe Carter, who is involved in running the website, once accused me of libel in public regarding my concerns about CJ Mahaney and SGM. He has never apologized, so I am suspicious of what comes out of that group. They were early supporters of Mark Driscoll and Doug Wilson. Suddenly, they remove their stuff from the website and go quiet instead of explaining.
Finally, you are NOT in permanent moderation. I just reviewed your history to be sure. Our filter put you there because you used some words that automatically cause a comment to be moderated. I cannot tell you the words because people will use that knowledge to bypass our filter.
And anytime anyone complains about moderation, their comment gets put into moderation. It;s not about you, in this instance.
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And you do not want to end up sounding like a YouTuber trying to talk around The Algorithm.
That can – and does – get even more stilted than any Marxspeak, Newspeak, Wokespeak, or Christianese.
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… who cover each other’s back, until the potato becomes too hot to handle … then they distance themselves from the bad-boys to protect their own hides (Mahaney who?)
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I take Paul with only so many grains of salt.
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People here — and indeed, all over my country — aren’t paying enough attention….they’re ignoring the fact that the “white supremacist”, “militia”, “Christian cult”, “too woke” type of people are stealthily creeping in at the local level. They’re stealthily getting themselves elected to the school boards, the city or county councils, some of the higher-level regulatory boards, etc. And from there, they’re leap-frogging into higher-levels of government. And our higher-levels of government are too busy trying to create their own legacy, or their own “fiefdom”, to actually govern.
A similar thing is happening in the U.S….
I realize many people are struggling to make ends meet, that they barely have time or energy for much beyond day-to-day survival….very big sigh.
These are just a couple of suggestions for what people could do (I’m sure there are more. 🙂 ) Perhaps people could begin by a) refraining from illegal or violent behaviour, and b) defunding these groups — don’t contribute to their campaign, cause, church, etc.
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In my school district we had two “parents rights activists” run for school trustee. I had an interesting debate with one of them on my front doorstep. They were trying to tell me about the “agenda” to sexualize children. I’m in regular contact with the school division due to volunteer work I do and my kids teachers. I also keep up with what’s happening in their lives so I know what a load of bunk that is.
My son has had two friends identify as trans. He treats everyone the same which is why people are naturally comfortable with him.
This is much better than where I grew up. If anyone came out of the closet, they’d get some rights and some left’s too.
Too many people are wasting away in Deuteronomy.
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I agree, better to be wasted away in Margaritaville.
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Thank you for your comment, Jack. 🙂 It sounds like you — and your son 🙂 — are some of the good people….very unlike the expletive-deleted people I was writing about. 🙂 We need more people like you. 🙂
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“Soundbites” are a favourite TGC means of pretending to look “relevant”. Martyn Lloyd-Jones and Marshall McLuhan did warn the then “evangelicals” but they wouldn’t listen.