Photo by Nick Kwan: Pexels
“The garb of religion is the best cloak for power.” — William Hazlitt
I just returned from a week of visiting my daughter and son-in-law and their beautiful new baby. My daughter is doing better and is still being treated. I, along with my son-in-law’s mother, spent a few days (and nights) caring for him while she was in the hospital. I wish you could have seen us in the middle of the night with a crying newborn and trying to figure out what to do. In the end, all is well. I plan to post about my visit to the Reformation Fellowship for those who left Park Street Church. I have never seen anything quite like it. Wow. Mark Booker of PSC, members of the CCC, and certain seminary presidents should be ashamed.
As TWW readers know, I do not want political discussions on the blog. I have concluded that our country is stuck on 50/50. Each person believes they know the truth, and the other side is stupid and dangerous. I have thought long about my position in this matter. Jesus did not march into Rome and strike the politicians dead. He knew they were persecuting the Jewish people. Why didn’t He take matters into His hands? He told the people of the day to pay their taxes. Matthew 22:20-22.
and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”
21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.
Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.
When people waved their palm branches when He entered Jerusalem, they were honoring Him as a conquering King who would free the people from their oppression. According to one source:
The palms are not associate with worship at Passover, but with the liberation and cleansing of Jerusalem more than 100 years prior to Jesus. The image of a king entering Jerusalem in victory appears in 1 Maccabees 13:51.
1 Maccabees 13:51–52 (NRSV) On the twenty-third day of the second month, in the one hundred seventy-first year, the Jews entered it with praise and palm branches, and with harps and cymbals and stringed instruments, and with hymns and songs, because a great enemy had been crushed and removed from Israel. Simon decreed that every year they should celebrate this day with rejoicing. He strengthened the fortifications of the temple hill alongside the citadel, and he and his men lived there.
Near the end of the first Jewish revolt (141 B.C.), Simon liberated Judea and set up an independent state. In 13:41-42 people begin to sign documents “the first year of Simon the great high priest and commander and leader of the Jews.” He captures Gaza and removes “all uncleanliness” from the city, then in 13:51 he enters the citadel in Jerusalem and “cleansed the citadel from its pollutions.” He establishes peace and provides food for the people starving from famine.
Quite simply, they hoped that He was the one who freed the people from their Roman oppressors. In 72 AD, Rome conquered Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and the people scattered (the great diaspora.)
So often, we forget who we serve. One day, He will be the conquering King. We make a mistake when we say our faith must be combined with politics. Of course, our beliefs should inform our choices, but people of good conscience may take different sides on many issues.
North Carolina Baptist Association sends a letter to churches warning them to vote correctly, or churches will be shut down.
Recently, the North Carolina Baptist Association decided that enough was enough, and there was only one way for a Christian to vote. North Carolina Baptist Association sends out a letter calling Democrats Marxists.
The director of missions for a Southern Baptist association in Eastern North Carolina sent a letter to all pastors of churches in Onslow County urging them to compel their members to vote for “biblical values” in this year’s presidential election.
The cover letter, written on letterhead for New River Baptist Association, is signed by Joseph C. Cappar, associational missions strategist. Although on official letterhead, a note at the bottom of the letter says, “Production and postage of this correspondence paid by personal donation.”
Enclosed with the cover letter is a three-page letter written by Chris Parr, whom Cappar describes as “a long-time friend, brother in Christ, passionate patriot, and political advocate.”
The letter wants the recipients of the letter to vote, but it is evident that these Baptists believe that there is only one way to vote since there is a communist takeover lurking in the shadows.
He warns of the threat of a communist takeover of the United States and says America’s young people are headed down the path to destruction.
…He warns: “America is being fed small doses of communism …. except today it is called Democratic Marxism!”
He quotes conspiracy theorist Eric Metaxas to warn that Democrats in America today are leading toward an evil autocracy like Germany under Hitler.
If we do not vote one way, churches will be closed down.
He warns about “the survival of our nation” and suggests if Democrats are elected, church doors will be padlocked by the government.
Then there is the “Ole Glory” problem. I do fly the flag on certain holidays, like the Fourth of July, but that is not enough for these Baptists. Only 24/7 will do. My husband remarked that he said nothing about proper flag care. Does he remove it when it is wet, dark, or covered in green pollen?
“We don’t have an Adolph Hitler but we do have a movement that is leading us to Marxism. It is called the Democratic Party.”
As evidence of this plot, he says of 24 houses on his street only four “have Ole Glory flying seven days a week.”
This reminds me of one of the pastors at our SBC church who handed out the list of who to vote for if one is a good Christian. I asked about it, but the senior pastor said that there was no problem with this. I sincerely disagreed. They mixed politics and faith. But, they were North Carolina Baptists. I wonder if they would have supported this letter.
I respect all people who think carefully and vote their conscience, even if it differs from what I may vote. One group of folks has decided to respond to this.
The Evangelical Confession
They call this a Call to Revival. Here are some of their thoughts.
- ONE: We give our allegiance to Jesus Christ alone.
We reject the false teaching that anyone other than Jesus Christ has been anointed by God as our Savior, or that a Christian’s loyalty should belong to any political party. We reject any message that promotes devotion to a human leader or that wraps divine worship around partisanship.- TWO: We will lead with love not fear.
We reject the stoking of fears and the use of threats as an illegitimate form of godly motivation, and we repudiate the use of violence to achieve political goals as incongruent with the way of Christ.- THREE: We submit to the truth of Scripture.
We reject the misuse of holy Scripture to sanction a single political agenda, provoke hatred, or sow social divisions, and we believe that using God’s name to promote misinformation or lies for personal or political gain is bearing his name in vain (Exodus 20:7).- FOUR: We believe the Gospel heals every worldly division.
We reject any attempt to divide the Church, which is the Body of Christ, along partisan, ethnic, or national boundaries, and any message that says it is God’s desire for the human family to be perpetually segregated by race, culture, or ethnicity is a rejection of the Gospel.- FIVE: We are committed to the prophetic mission of the Church.
We reject both the call for the Church to withdraw from societal issues out of fear of political contamination, as well as any attempt to distort the Church into a mere vehicle of political or social power.- SIX: We value every person as created in God’s image.
We reject any messages that employ dehumanizing rhetoric, that attempt to restrict who is worthy of God’s love, or that impose limitations on the command to “love your neighbor” that Christ himself removed.- SEVEN: We recognize godly leaders by their character.
We reject the lie that a leader’s power, popularity, or political effectiveness is confirmation of God’s favor, or that Christians are permitted to ignore the teachings of Christ to protect themselves with worldly power.
I saw that a number of people who signed this are those I respect, such as Dr. Warreen Throckmortin and Dr. Karen Swallow Prior.
The Confession has a great resource page on how to survive the election. Here is one amusing video.
Sadly, I have read comments online that all the signers are “liberals” and don’t respect the Bible. Oddly enough, the signers may be folks of many different political persuasions.
So, I am opening this up for discussion. Warning: do not use this post to support those running for President, etc. Stick to the points in the Confession. Do you agree or disagree? Why?
I was young and now am old. For the first time in my life, I will enter the voting booth, cast my vote for an individual, and then ask God to forgive me before I get back to the car. But before election day, as a Christian, I will carefully examine platforms of each political party and compare them as best as possible with Bible truth. I just don’t know what else to do … platform is more important than person, I suppose.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Both parties have some pretty objectionable things going on with them.
It has probably always been that way, positions of parties and individuals in those parties just seem so much more extreme than in elections past.
I suppose it might almost be enough to make a getting older man start yelling at clouds out of frustration.
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
On the other hand you have Wayne Grudem’s who wrote “POLITICS – ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE A COMPREHENSIVE RESOURCE FOR UNDERSTANDING MODERN POLITICAL ISSUES IN LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE”
“This book is dedicated to the three people who had
the most significant influence in encouraging me to write this book, and whose lives exemplify what I discuss in these pages:
Alan Sears, president of Alliance Defense Fund, and
Ben Bull, executive vice president of Alliance Defense Fund,
the two people who first approached me with the idea of
writing this book,
and
Cathi Herrod, president of the Center for Arizona Policy,
who encouraged me with several wise suggestions
and with opportunities to present this material and promote the book to live audiences.”
He covers every subject under the sun including politics, the family, economics, national defence, terrorism, coercive interrogation of prisoners (!)(presumably because he is so wise). Spoiled for choice I think. ( this last paragraph is tongue in cheek)
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As a Christian deeply rooted in the sovereignty of God, who ever gets elected will serve God’s ultimate purposes. But Scriptures also makes it clear better to be ruled by a good king than a bad one – children if you will. We are NOT blessed by our choices this time around. As some wag put it; Trump had his “side chics” and Harris was a “side chick.”
We are left with voting for policies – we know what Trumps are, not sure about Harris.
After King Solomon died Israel was divided into 2 countries, Judah and Israel. There were 40 kings all told. Israel was O for 20, Judah was 8 for 20. Ultimately it all went to hell in a handbasket for both countries.
In the big picture, if you are a follower of Jesus Christ you cannot lose – though times may be very tough. We deserve no less.
So in summary, whoever gets elected God still reigns.
senecagriggs(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In my home church I was taught that Romans 10:9-10 was part of the “Roman Road to Salvation.” My seminary training echoed the same. “Sola fide”, by faith alone does one come to God. The first time I learned that faith alone was not enough was in 1992. I was pastor of a small town SBC “First Baptist” church near the VA border. I was having lunch with the chair of deacons and talk turned to the upcoming presidential election and the candidates, Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush. I started laughing when the deacon stated, “You know, you can’t be a Christian and vote for Bill Clinton.” I was laughing because I thought he was joking; he wasn’t. I asked how a vote for Clinton affected my salvation, and he explained that Clinton’s poor morals were such that a true Christian would not vote for him. The discussion ended “friendly”, but for me, fearful, as I wondered if this was the beginning of “adding” other things to scripture for salvation.
And here we are today . . .
The Confession is a useful document to define the boundaries between faith and practice.
Luckyforward(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s getting harder to raise up a national son or daughter to the highest office in this land who doesn’t have some sort of shame in their background.
A reflection of what America has become … we get what we want.
This old man yells at the TV news every day! I’m old enough to remember a kinder, gentler America and American politicians capable of civil discourse. Apparently, we’ve moved past that … it’s going to be a rough ride in the years ahead. Perhaps I should just tune everything out and go fishing.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAmzaAtvhvw&t=16s
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That’s a hoot.
Before their 1933-34 Coup from Within, when the National Socialist Party (a name chosen to fit both Patriot and Labor into their Base) actually had to win elections, their public image and platform hit all the Christian Culture War talking points for Traditional Family Values against the HOMOSEXUAL decadence of Weimar Berlin, the Global Radical Left, and a Vast Absolutely Evil Cabal pulling puppet strings everywhere behind the scenes. A return to “Blood and Soil”, a pre-existing nostalgia genre for a simpler past where everything was right best described as “a Little House on the Prarie auf Deutsch“. The Party Spinmeister (guy named Goebbels) even invoked “God, God, God” so often (in his surviving pre-1933 quotes) you’d think he was a preacher. Didn’t hurt that the Austrian cult leader heading the Party could work a crowd like a Revival Meeting, i.e. “The Man Could PREACH!”
And a lot of German Christians jumped on the bandwagon, in a Party-backed Patriot Church movement called “Reich Church”.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
SLAVERY: The capture and forced labor and whipping and many times death of GOD’S children.
ABORTION: The death at all times of GOD’S children!
The choice is clear. There really is only one way to vote!
Robert Osborne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith.” (Ephesians 2:8)
How does one access grace? Through faith. (my high school English teacher taught me about sentence structure)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Generally agree with these – but….I do have some comments
TWO: Totally agree that threats should not be used. But who gets to decide if one is giving an opinion on what they think will happen is considered “stoking of fears?”
If I believe that a candidate or policy will lead to a bad result and I say so am I stoking fears?
THREE: totally agree – We submit to the truth of Scripture.
But…“misuse” of scripture. Again, who gets to determine this. We can’t even all agree on this forum what certain scripture means.
An example (and I’m sure there are others) of perhaps conflicting ideas…
If a man doesn’t work he should not eat…
Care for the strangers among you…
SIX: Agree – We value every person as created in God’s image.
But…” impose limitations” I would oppose limitations on individuals loving their neighbor. Not so sure I would oppose limits on Gov’t responsibility for this…
SEVEN: Agree – We recognize godly leaders by their character. But I don’t really understand what this last part means…” or that Christians are permitted to ignore the teachings of Christ to protect themselves with worldly power.
AF(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I tread cautiously with number 6. I have seen it used to “back door” in some of the grossest of sins. Think of the Duggars with Josh. And yep, the other more liberal side does the same thing.
I like the idea of Jesus is our Savior. Where I live some think a distinct orange glow signals the savior of mankind.
And I hate to admit it, but we took Old Glory down and don’t plan to fly it again in this area, as it signals support for one side only, usually flown with the Confederate flag.
Nope. They have sullied the red white and blue. I’d fly it were I still in Colorado, but not in the Ozarks.
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
There is a sermon on politics from a couple of months ago that is well worth listening to. If every Christian in this nation could listen to it and actually follow what is said, this country would be in a far, far better place.
This statement, not too long into the video, is the heart of the message: “As Jesus Followers, how are we supposed to handle the topic of politics?”
https://youtu.be/FN5hkdNcyQg
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve read the post, but not yet had time to read the comments….
When a pastor / minister / priest / bishop / etc. tells the congregation how to vote, they are guilty of spiritual abuse.
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is how I view that:
“We reject the lie that . . . . Christians are permitted to ignore the teachings of Christ to protect themselves with worldly power.”
Not to get too political on either side, but there are things that have occured historically that really speak to this.
What immediately comes to mind is the moral posturing used by Christians to bash Clinton for immoral behavior in his election run in the 90’s. Maybe it was only rumors of such during his 1st election run in 1992 – I can’t remember at this point.
Contrast that Clinton bashing against the LACK of moral posturing by those same Christians regarding Trump’s actual documented immoral behavior (he divorced 2 women to marry his then mistress, and the utterly gross grabbing women comment). It wasn’t just the lack of applying the same moral posturing, it was the seemingly large amount of Christian Crickets chirping about that.
To me, that dichotomy speaks directly to the last part of their statement “. . . the lie that Christians are permitted to ignore the teachings of Christ to protect themselves with worldly power.”
The difference in moral posturing comes across as incredibly and grossly hypocritical. I know it does to non-Christians as well. Honestly, to use a measuring stick against someone you don’t like, but then not use the same measuring stick against someone you do like who has engaged in the same, if not worse, behavior? All in the name of politics? Wow. This has the strong effect of making Chistians look like they have placed politics above God.
The hypocritical poster child of this application/non-application of a moral yardstick was done by one of the biggest and most visible Christian organizations – Liberty University. Bashers of Clinton, yet boosters for Trump and it stars the Falwell’s, including, big sigh, Falwell Jr. . . . . .
It quickly becomes really difficult to argue against the idea that Christians are putting politics above God. If you really want to argue against that idea, just go ask any number of people in “The World” what they think. Yeah.
And to be clear, although I will vote on local issues, I will not be voting for either candidate for different reasons. It won’t matter in my state anyway.
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve read the post, but not yet had time to read the comments….
No offence to anyone intended….
Something that crossed my mind as I was reading through the Baptist News Global post, North Carolina Baptist association sends out letter calling Democrats Marxists….
From the Baptist News Global post, North Carolina Baptist association sends out letter calling Democrats Marxists:
When I was a child, I went to a school where we HAD to say the pledge of allegiance every morning. I was not from the U.S., so I stopped saying the pledge. Out of respect for my classmates, I stood quietly and respectfully.
Has anyone realized that forcing or commanding children or young adults to say the pledge — anything, really (a prayer, a school chant, something for “team building”, etc.) — is exactly what authoritarian dictators do?
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jesus said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” (Mark 12:17)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is how I interpreted that:
“We reject the lie that . . . . Christians are permitted to ignore the teachings of Christ to protect themselves with worldly power.”
Afterburne(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
lol! Excellent stuff!
Lowlandseer(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“The whole point of Jesus’ response to the tax question is that refusal to join the Revolution is not the equivalent of joining the Establishment (or vice versa). In Scripture, it is only God in Christ who can say, ‘He who is not with me is against me.’ The assumption that one must either absolutize the state as a god (as does the establishment) or else absolutize it as a satan (as does the revolution) is utterly false. Jesus asks us to absolutize God alone and let the state and all other [powers] be the human relativities they are, at once relatively good and relatively evil–even as you and I are.”
Vernard Eller, “Christian Anarchy: Jesus’ Primacy Over the Powers”
I wish people had agreed with the call back when Paul Weyrich was helping hijack the church.
Point 7 makes me think of a couple of passages: 1 Sam 8:7-22 and Isaiah 31:1-9. What security do people expect to derive from man when “our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases”?
Fergus McLane(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I refuse to bow to their abuse of the flag that belongs to ALL of us. I fly mine on appropriate days as always.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
But I understand your position. I grew up in Missouri. Been in the Ozarks several times. Never feel too safe there.
Bridget(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As someone who has spent my life entirely focused on making disciples in a part of the world where Jesus is little known I can tell you NO ONE who is a Christian in any actual communist nation where I’ve served in is involved in politics. Full stop. The Jesus followers I know in those countries are obedient to Jesus and known for their good deeds in society. They don’t bother with public policy but they do make disciples. And the church is growing faster in those places than in America so please stop believing the lie that “communism” will keep us from worshiping Jesus.
The confession about politics posted here gets at an important issue- will you and I lead with love or with fear and anger? Will we be known for the hateful words on our bumper stickers? Will our children and grandchildren avoid us because we act like we’re in a political cult? Will coworkers avoid us because we back bullies, support those who knowingly lie as a way of life and those who habitually degrade women in speech and action? The confession reminds us that our witness for Jesus is at stake here.
No political party reflects Gods heart. This confession reminds us to stop conflating Jesus with a political party or candidate. We will not lose our salvation by whom we vote for on November 5. On the other hand we will be known by how angry, unkind and rigid we are about our politics.
Fisher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As always dee, the pic of the Milky Way up-top is stunning.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
First of all, there are no communists with any sort of power (ok, maybe dog catcher) in the United States, nor is either party captive to Marxism or Communism. People who say this are, in my opinion, ignorant.
As for flying the flag 7 days a week, I have two comments.
1) I’ve been to Japan three times. I only remember one time in all those trips where I saw a Japanese flag (hinomaru), and it was flying over a historical onsen (bath house). It was explained to me that flying the flag was just not a thing in Japan today. There had been a time when it WAS a thing, but that ended in 1945. This doesn’t mean there aren’t banners everywhere–there are. But they’re not flags on flagpoles.
2) In my opinion, someone who insists that the US flag needs to be hoisted seven days a week in front of one’s house is verging reeeeeally close to idol worship. Again, just my opinion.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Lowlandseer,
As a long time resident of Arizona, I have strongly held opinions regarding Wayne Grudem and the people he is promoting. They are not appropriate for Dee’s blog.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
AGREED. I am an equal opportunity offender in this area. If your organization is getting a 501(c)3 tax exemption, it is incumbent upon you and your organization to be as non-political as possible. Endorsing candidates is a no-no and I don’t care *WHICH* party does it. Don’t do it. If you want to endorse candidates, pay your taxes.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Not the Black, White, and Blue?
You mean the flag actually has RED stripes?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
This is offensive and the very thing mentioned in the confession:
SIX: We value every person as created in God’s image.We reject any messages that employ dehumanizing rhetoric,”
It is public record that Trump has been divorced twice, says he grabs Womens genitals without their consent and slept with a porn star while married. It’s offensive to call them “side chicks” when some of them didn’t even give consent. Isn’t that what is highlighted every week here on TWW??
There is no public record to evidence Harris slept her way to the top. None. It’s all conjecture and slander. Isn’t that sort of behavior towards women also highlighted on TWW?
So whats it gonna be? Are we going to refuse abuse and dehumanizing women or will we join in theowing a woman under the bus when it suits us? We can all respectfully disagree with a politicians stance on an issue but we absolutely should not call them names nor repeat unsubstantiated rumors about them. Or about anyone else either, including legal tax paying immigrants.
A main point of this confession about politics is that discourse regarding politics will either lead people toward Jesus or repel them in disgust. Up to us.
Fisher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Interesting. Concerns for backdoors shouldn’t be an issue, this isn’t scripture.
That said, plenty of nefarious groups using scripture as backdoors [sic], sadly, and to their own demise.
If mostly liberals signed, as pointed out, and considering the biblical soundness of this document, then that suggests a more Godly faith held by the same liberals… then those who criticized the signers.
I think, judge the document on its words and meaning vs. on potential backdoors and signers. Consider that it’s biblical to practice our involvement in society and politics as defined in the document, to the glory of God and proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
JesMi(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Not a Christian though I do attend a Christian church but a thought on the flag.
I’m reminded of Daniel 3. And also of the two US Supreme Court cases dealing with the pledge. The first is Minersville School District v. Gobitis in June 1940 (with one dissenter) which ruled that the state could compel students to recite the pledge despite their religious beliefs (the students and their parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses who felt that their allegiance belonged solely to God and not to any human or human institution much less an inanimate flag). After this case, some states took this to the point of expelling the students and then fining or jailing the parents for having delinquent kids. It was not lost on some that Germany under Hitler was doing the same (and worse) to the Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany for failing to pledge allegiance. In 1943 a second case went to the Supreme Court, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, and the court overturned its previous decision (with three dissenters).
“If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us” (from the majority opinion).
Erp(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Don’t know about Daniel 3.
I’m seeing Samuel 8 in a lot of Christians.
“GIVE US A KING! JUST LIKE ALL THE GOYIM!”
During a government shutdown/Budget Chicken in the Obama years, there were preachers calling for a Military Coup. (Echoing Dobson’s Reagan-era claim that the military was filled with Born-Again Bible-Believing Christians and the rot of Vietnam was finally expunged.)
Pat Robertson’s 2016-era Visions of being caught up into Heaven like John in Revelation and shown DJT seated at the Right Hand of God. And he’s not the only one Prophesying along those lines — remember “The Firefighter Prophet”? Kat Kerr? My Pillow Guy? APOSTLE Greg Locke? Some Prophet named Robin Bullock who’s mixed in David Icke’s Alien Reptoid Illuminati?
And that one book making the rounds on Amazon proving that DJT IS the Second Coming of Christ.
It’s gotten to the point that on YouTube, the name for “MAGA-hats” and “Alt-Right” has become “The CHRISTIANS.”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So I’m not Crazy?
I’m not the only one in my High School who thought that High School Pep Rallies (“RAH! RAH! RAH!”) resembled Nuremberg Rallies?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“GIVE US A KING! LIKE RUSSIA! LIKE CHINA! ALL THE GOYIM!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
So WAYNE GRUDEM GO WAYNE GRUDEM! and his co-conspirators are Zonies (Arizonans)?
I’m trying to retire and will have to move out of Cali due to prices, taxes, and general craziness. I’m getting high-pressured to move to Arizona (Tucson, specifically) because “THERE THE COMMUNISTS CAN’T TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The Republicans strung the Christians along with that promise for, what, forty-fifty years now?
They could have strung them along for over a hundred years if it wasn’t for their REAL Second Coming of Christ stacking the court to actually OVERTURN Roe v Wade, cinching His own Deification forever.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG, think about New Mexico. Good weather, lower costs and really nice people.
nmgirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
researcher,
The pledge? Oh yes, i completely agree. Got in horrible trouble in 8th grade for refusing to stand and say it.
For one, making kids do this is indoctrination. The PRC and the USSR and Germany not so long ago required young children to do things like this.
My objections (still! I won’t recite it) are especially to 1) “with liberty and justice for all” (“all” = white people with money), 2) “under God” should not be part of it, nor used in public schools, given separation of church and state, and 3) making kids recite what is, quite frankly, political propaganda + what is going on with pledging “allegiance to the flag”? For young children, none of this makes muchh sense; it’s a kind of nonsensical word salad that’s never explained and that, from rote memorization, they are taught to not think about. Not using critical thinking skills in a case – like this – where they are vital.
So I’m a Bad Girl for not saying it and refusing to salute the flag. (I’ll stand if it’s being carried past, but salute it? Nope.)
I care deeply about my country, but when I was quite young, Civil Rights protesters were literally risking their lives in order to bring about legislwtion for basic human rights to apply to US citizens who are Black. Anti-miscegenation laws weren’t overturned until the SCOTUS ruled on Loving v. VA in 1967.
The truth is that Black and brown people are still experiencing pervasive racisim and even death for the “sin” of existing, as themselves.
Dee, i do hope that you *will* address the ugly racism that’s front and center this election season. If ever there was an entirely egregious wrong, that is at the top of the list. Especially when one particular cosplaying “hillbilly” is interviewed and flat out says that he will say whatever he wants, even when he knows it’s a lie. He didn’t appear to acknowledge that his lies have harmed people, and that they continue to do so – particulary refugees from an island that our military occupied for several decades after the Spanish-American War ended. (A country founded via a successful revolt by formerly enslaved people.) Since I’m in a key swing state, i can see the effect of these lies with my own eyes. We have refugee communities from said island right here, you know?
I hope – to God – that you will post about this, not least b/c of the overt religiosity of the individual who’s done the most to spread these lies. (*Not* a candidate for pres, fwiw.)
Well, i know this is a rabble-rousing kind of comment, but these issues are absolutely crucial. The harm being done to both US citizens and refugees is incalculable. Especially when things are so bad at school that parents feel they have no choice but to keep their children at home until the dust settles, knowing that things will never be what they really *should* be, per racist taunting, slurs, bullying, etc. – and not just in Springfield, OH.
/rant
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
But… God is really, really inextricable from our current political and judicial situations.
Just my .02-worth.
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Erp,
Thanks for the info. I had no idea that my school didn’t have a leg to stand on vis a vis that 2nd SCOTUS ruling. They were in flagrant violation of the law; I was not. And i was just a kid.
Then again, the principal of my jr. HS literally grabbed a kid wearing a stand-up collared shirt (known as a Nehru jacket then) by said collar and dragged him out of the lunch line for further punishment.
You can extrapolate from there, including how this boy and I were treated by our peers. It certainly reflected the admins’ reactions.
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
P.S. Dee, if you feel like my comments are too contentious, i understand.
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Agreed.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
-John Adams
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’m still scratching my head over one hobby club I belong to who a few years ago instituted such a “flag salute” (as we called it in grade school) at the beginning of every meeting.
But…WHY?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I understand that part was added during the early Cold War.
Given the timing, an obvious “Take THAT, you Godless Commies!”
But no matter what or when, one generation later it becomes “the way we’ve always done things”.
Two generations later, “A Constitutional Right Which Cannot Be Infringed In Any Way”.
Three generations later, “SCRIPTURE!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Some (but not all) Evangelicals don’t want a Democracy, they want a Dictatorship.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
That’s really weird! (The club doing that.)
“In God We Trust” on coins, etc. is also very recent. I’m blanking on when “under God” was added, so will look it up. I think the slogan on money became a thing near that same time.
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Though that “moral and religious people” included many who didn’t believe in Christianity. Important to keep in mind – the US has always been in pluralistic society per religion, even though some of the colonies weren’t. (I’m from PA; William Penn was a Quaker, and in England, Quakers were persecuted. So, along with Rhode Island, PA welcomed religious dissenters, people of other faiths, etc. Not that everyone here *liked* them or treated them well, but it was better than in some other colonies, early on.)
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Indeed. The First Amendment protects the freedom of religion through the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause:
Establishment Clause: Prohibits the government from establishing a religion
Free Exercise Clause: Protects the right of citizens to practice their religion as they choose
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“In God We Trust” first appeared on U.S. coins in the 1860s … on paper currency in the 1950s.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I would add that when these pastors/ ministers/priests, etc. use the threat of hellfire and damnation if their congregation doesn’t vote the way they tell them to, that they are abusing their authority in a sinister way. They make themselves judge and jury over their congregant’s consciences, something that no one has the right to do except God alone.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Ah….but what you don’t realize is that it’s not authoritarian when the self-proclaimed godly conservatives are in power. Then it’s fine and dandy to lord it over peoples’ individual freedoms and consciences for the sake of their preferred religion.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max – That response was Researcher not you.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I have thought long and hard about this election and know exactly how I will vote. I will not ask for forgiveness because I am convinced – even compelled – that I must vote in only one particular way. To go against that would be to go against my conscience and convictions. As to how anyone else votes when they enter that voting booth, that is solely up to them.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Indeed, because they are convinced (wrongly convinced) that their preferred dictator actually cares about them. Christian Nationalism can be appealing to those who wish to yield power over the populace in the name of God. These kind of Christians would rather force people to follow their religious dictates through the arm of the state (in some cases, even through violence) rather than trust in the gospel to change people’s hearts.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Max,
Hey, thanks! I appreciate the answer on this.
numo(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Strange isn’t it … 50% of Americans feel convinced & compelled in one direction, while the other 50% feel convinced & compelled to go an opposite course. While we’ve seen this before, I’ve never witnessed a greater division in our country … agree to disagree and get along to go along, has faded into the distant past.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I don’t know about anyone else, but I am being inundated with the “vote for the pro life candidate” mantra.
Ya’ll know me. You know I am an adoptive mama. You know I am GENERALLY anti abortion, with exceptions of course to save the mama’s life, and with a shroud of privacy for families facing some horrific birth defects in the child. As in, carry to term but watch it slowly die an agonizing death, or worse yet, live many years in total intractable agony. It happens.
That said, we need to be clear: neither of the two major parties is anti abortion, so neither can claim to be pro life. And both sides DO care about the mom and baby after birth, they just disagree on how best to address their needs. Neither side seems to care about ALL life from cradle to grave.
So vote what you believe to be the best choice, but please, NEITHER side wins any badges for pro life.
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
….and elementary school.
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Franklin Graham is still big-time supporting 1 candidate, even saw him hanging out in the news feed when the candidate was visiting NC recently.
I agree, it is very hypocritical.
And I DO think character matters, a lot, not just policies, including is a candidate willing to listen to smart, capable people (even with varying or opposing positions) and make informed decisions while in office, not just look for Yes-men to stroke their egos.
We are happy that our pastor has made a number of comments about not putting faith in politics, this world, politicians, etc. to try to steer people away from equating faith with either political persuasion. If he had done the opposite, we likely wouldn’t be there still.
And IMO it’s also a violation of separation of Church and State. If a church wants to tell people how to vote, give up their tax-exempt status…
readingalong(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And no offence to anyone intended….And, as well as that, there are children indoctrinated into being child soldiers (including Christians….and not just fighting with words), and children and young adults who are brought up in warring factions (who keep the war going, etc., because they don’t know anything different).
And “pledging allegiance to the flag” can be pledging allegiance to whatever cause that flag (or symbol) represents….which could be a person, a group, a country, etc. Think of churches that Dee and TWW commenters have written about on TWW….not just the membership covenants / agreements, but when the congregation is told to stand up (or whatever) and agree to the newest changes (without knowing what they’re agreeing to).
I never encountered that when I went to school in the U.S., but perhaps that was because of where I lived….
That. As well as refugees, including white refugees.
There are times I’m ashamed to be Canadian, and times when I’m embarrassed by other Canadians, including those who should know better (omitting details, because a) I know Dee doesn’t want politics discussed, and b) most of my comment would consist of the phrase expletive-deleted).
NOT a rabble-rousing comment. 🙂 There are some places in Canada where children are being kept home for the same reason (or the child is making that choice for themself).
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That.
Some people can let the “hellfire and damnation” threat roll off there back….others are terrified to death — and the person / people making the threat know that.
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Yes, and the nature of this divisiveness increased exponentially approximately 8 years ago, which can be attributed especially to a certain person and movement. Read between the lines as I’m sure you can.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
That.
Pardon me Dee for getting a bit political….at least I’m keeping my language polite. 🙂 And in Canada, Darlene, your example could be applied to Quebec — all you need to do is omit “godly conservatives”, and substitute language for religion. Have you ever heard of Quebec’s “language police”….
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I have not heard of Quebec’s language police. But authoritarians are not limited to living in the USA.
Darlene(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Darlene,
I’m just thankful that there are more level-headed politicians in both camps to offset the few loud mouths on the extreme left and extreme right. Whew, what kind of nation would we have if those folks gained complete control of the wheel?!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Deutschland, Deutschland, EIn Neun Drei Drei…
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And they KNOW that THEY will be the Court Favorites, sitting as His left and right hand, getting to hold His whip.
Some even claim their preferred dictator is the REAL Second Coming of Christ — “He Shall Rule [Them, not Us] with a Rod of Iron! And His Kingdom Shall Have No End!”
In the Russo-Ukranian War, Russia has invited American Christans to “Come out from among the Heathen” and emigrate to Russia, “Where there are only two genders” (playing on Christianese Culture War dogwhistles).
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“GIVE US A KING LIKE ALL THE GOYIM! LIKE RUSSIA! IKE CHINA! LIKE HUNGARY!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Interesting thoughts on democracy in this podcast!
.
Making Bureaucracies Sexier with Yuval Noah Harari
.
What Now? with Trevor Noah
.
Also with Christiana Mbakwe Medina
.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-now-with-trevor-noah/id1710609544?i=1000671627550
.
Btw, I don’t agree with all of the thoughts or opinions by the three participants in this conversation. The reason I am sharing it is because I think it’s interesting and also helpful to listen to the thoughts and opinions of people with whom we disagree… Whether that is a partial disagreement or a more complete disagreement…. And usually, we can find areas of overlap, like the center of a Venn diagram where there are shared opinions, with people with whom we substantially disagree on most things… just to clarify!
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“ The Office québécois de la langue française (Canadian French: [ɔˈfɪs kebeˈkwɑ də la lãɡ fʁãˈsaɪ̯z] (OQLF) (‘Quebec Office of the French Language’) is an agency of the Quebec provincial government charged with ensuring legislative requirements with respect to the right to use French are respected.
Established on 24 March 1961 by the Liberal government of Jean Lesage, the OQLF was attached to the Ministry of Culture and Communications. Its initial mission, defined in its report of 1 April 1964, was “to align with international French, promote good Canadianisms and fight Anglicisms, … work on the normalization of the language in Quebec and support State intervention to carry out a global language policy that would consider notably the importance of socio-economic motivations in making French the priority language in Quebec”.[2]
Its mandate was enlarged by the 1977 Charter of the French Language, which established two other organizations — the Toponomy Commission and the Superior Council of the French Language — as well as by amendments since made to the Charter, most significantly, the 2022 reform.”
.
From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_de_la_langue_fran%C3%A7aise
.
Also see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_Fran%C3%A7aise
Friend of Park Street Church(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’m a diabetic, so tattoos are right out. (Tattoos have been described as introducing an infection vector under one’s skin and should be avoided by diabetics.) But there was a period where I thought about getting that tattooed on my body because I was citing it so often.
People need to read that on the regular and take it to heart.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
It’s not especially cheap out here. (I know this because I’ve been taking a look at houses for a friend of mine who wants to buy early next year and the cost is taking my breath away.) Tucson is slightly cheaper than the Phoenix area. It also has a heavy Hispanic/Mexican influence, much more than up here in the Valley of the Sun. The weather is not as brutal as in the Phoenix area.
The gun thing? Most states aren’t California about guns. Or gun accessories. A friend of mine in the Bay Area was looking to buy a scope, not for shooting but to use with an infrared camera. She selected a single scope but it couldn’t be shipped to her, California regulations. A dual scope, no problem.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Politics of either side aside, the main issue I have with the underlying logic behind “vote for the pro-life candidate” is that it fundamentally misses the mark on how to effectively reduce abortions (which *increased* post-Dobbs).
Abortion isn’t fundamentally a political problem, it’s a social problem. It’s a problem driven by demand for the service, which comes not because the laws aren’t right (see: Prohibition) but because the culture as a whole is sick. I don’t recall reading anywhere in the Bible about how laws transform the heart and make it clean; maybe the pro-life politicians can point those passages out to me.
How are we as a people helping young mothers? How are we as a people addressing broken homes and broken families? How are we as a people showing love and compassion to people who feel like abortions for non-medical reasons are their most (or only) viable option? I’ve been a part of churches who have been very active with their adoption ministries and orphan care ministries and women’s shelter ministries and the like, but is the church as a whole making that the norm? Or are we bowing at the altar of the Elephant God and expecting him to save all the babies while we pat ourselves on the back at the ballot box, content that we’ve done our Christian Duty by voting for whatever devil had the right party affiliation this time around while we kick the pregnant teen out of our church for her “indiscretions?”
When we look to the government to pass good Christian laws, we’ve abandoned the Gospel.
Fergus McLane(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
But that was a SECULAR Supreme Court.
Not today’s CHRISTIAN(TM) Supreme Court.
Bible Trumps Constitution — “Laws of Men or WORD! OF! GOD!”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The guy high-pressuring me lived in Tucson – over twenty years ago. He probably thinks things are the same as in the 1990s.
I want some place that’s cooler than the low desert — Flagstaff is too expensive (and too Californized) but there’s got to be some place in the middle.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The OQLF sounds like a Quebecois copy of The French Academy.
Which is a real hoot because actual French don’t think Quebecois are REALLY French or that they can even speak Proper French. (And to Parisians, Wogs begin at the Paris City Limits — ask any Norman.)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
🙂
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Friend of Park Street Church,
Friend of Park Street Church,
Thank you for the links. 🙂
I would’ve listed some really petty cases of the “language police” that I personally encountered during some business transactions, but that would be a breach of confidentiality. 🙂 And when I skimmed the Wikipedia link you provided, I was reminded of some instances that are incredibly petty — like the apostrophe in a family business’s name….Wikipedia doesn’t list Eatons, but then, that store no longer exists.
One example that I remembered — and that is listed in Wikipedia — is the following:
Wins like the above are few and far between….
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Like I’ve said before, they don’t want a Democracy, they want a Dictatorship.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)