In double predestination, God determines the elect and the reprobate. One’s actions have no influence on their membership in either group. In other words, a person who is elect could sin as much as they want without fear of eternal torment.

Either Didn’t Believe What He Preached or Believed He Was Exempt.

I go with the second one, specifically that he KNEW he was one of the Predestined Elect.

Thought the 500-year history of Calvinism, there has been litmus test after litmus test to PROVE to the Calvinist that HE is one of the Elect (and just as important, you’re NOT). Protected from Evanescent Grace and God-Sent False Assurance of Election by material blessings/getting filthy rich or Perfectly Parsing your Theology like a Supreme Party Ideologist of the USSR.

Never underestimate the Arrogance of God’s Special Predestined Pets.

But never forget this dude was, according to Al Mohler, “the most famous expositor of Scripture.”

Ego Much?
That’s right up there with “Head Apostle of the People of Destiny”.

And I’ve seen and heard more than enough brain-dead “Exposition of Scripture(TM)” to not trust it.

Micah: In double predestination, God determines the elect and the reprobate. One’s actions have no influence on their membership in either group. In other words, a person who is elect could sin as much as they want without fear of eternal torment.

And that ought to scare the eternal hell out of those who sit under hyper-Calvinist leaders … they can “sin as much as they want”?!

Oh, but Scripture teaches otherwise: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6)

The new reformers have been cherry-picking Paul to make him say what they want him to. They conveniently jump over passages like the above, while twisting other passages to support their theology. They depend on cheap grace, which is not Grace at all.

A “double” passage they need to be concerned about: “Woe to you, self-righteous scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a convert, you make him two-fold as much a son of hell as you are.” (Matthew 23:15)

Oh, but Max, so what if he was a bit of a bad-boy, Brother Lawson sure could preach and teach. Be not deceived, Jesus had a lot to say about such leaders in Matthew 7.

I’d like to offer what I understand to be a more nuanced and correct version of the teaching of double predestination, which is that God determines both who is saved and who is damned.

BUT the Scriptures teach human responsibility just as much as they teach God’s sovereignty. It’s both. I can’t explain exactly how both of those things can be true at once. He’s God. He’s bigger than I am; He can do things I can’t fully explain.

Also: An “elect” person’s life has to reflect the fruits of the Spirit. Jesus says you’ll know them by their fruits. You don’t get to act like a heathen and then claim election just because you say so. That’s not even grace; that’s just gross. The elect understand that grace is hard-won by Christ and that we honor and seek to serve Him as a result. Anyone who treats Christ’s sacrifice cheaply in a habitual way is NOT elect even though he may say he is.

I don’t think you have to believe in double predestination in order to be a Christian. This is something we can disagree on and still love Jesus no matter which camp we are in. But I do get frustrated at times with the way people treat Calvinism as a caricature. Properly understood, I think it honors God’s sovereignty in a way that other theological systems cannot.

Micah:
In double predestination, God determines the elect and the reprobate. One’s actions have no influence on their membership in either group. In other words, a person who is elect could sin as much as they want without fear of eternal torment.

This is an egregious misrepresentation of Reformed theology. In no way, ever, is it preached that a redeemed/elect sinner can “sin as much as they want without fear of eternal torment.” It’s just a simply gross mischaracterization, or a purposeful slandering of the doctrine of election.

In the predestination camp (Calvinist, Reformed) God has preordained the people He will save (which the Bible clearly states, I chose you before the foundation of the world), but Jesus does not save people and leave them in their sin. There is an ongoing battle between the flesh and the spirit once a person repents and is regenerated, clearly taught in Romans 8, where Paul describes his own Christian life.

There is ample, clear, and direct teaching in Reformed preaching that teaches how sin should be dealt with, in an individuals life and in the corporate body (church discipline, possible excommunication, etc.)

It is not contradictory in any way to believe God predestined those that He will save, leaving the unelected to remain in their sin, and yet expect that the predestined will not remain in their sin but live a life of repentance and growing obedience to God.

Muff Potter,

Never mind, I shoulda’ kept reading the comments.

Muff Potter,

I think there are a variety of ways of describing the view; here’s an attempt:

First, “single predestination”, as I understand it, is the view that God graciously chooses (elects), from eternity past, certain individuals to receive the mercies of regeneration, sanctification, glorification. Those who are not among the elect are not “chosen” for destruction, but that is their inevitable fate since they are not able to save themselves.

“Double predestination, as I understand it, is the view that in addition to actively “electing” some for salvation, God actively “elects” everyone else for damnation, decreeing in eternity past that they shall not be saved.

——-

“Single predestination” sounds less intimidating than “double”, but I don’t think there’s a meaningful difference between them. If I choose to not rescue someone whom I could rescue, and who is not able to rescue himself, I have chosen that that person shall perish.

I agree with the OP that DP tends to corrode one’s humanity, or at least one’s compassion for fellow-sufferers. There are even writers who affirm that, in eternity, the contemplation of the sufferings of the damned shall have the effect of increasing the happiness of the saved. It seems, to me, rather twisted (I say this as one who once, reluctantly, thought that DP was probably right).

…Double Predestination…
+++++++++++

some theologians sure have a lot of time on their hands.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Thought the 500-year history of Calvinism, there has been litmus test after litmus test to PROVE to the Calvinist that HE is one of the Elect (and just as important, you’re NOT). Protected from Evanescent Grace and God-Sent False Assurance of Election by material blessings/getting filthy rich or Perfectly Parsing your Theology like a Supreme Party Ideologist of the USSR.

I’m currently listening through A.W. Pink’s “The Sovereignty of God” and one of the things he’s repeated a number of times (while still absolutely affirming God’s absolute sovereignty over who is “elect” and who isn’t) is that it is entirely impossible for us to know while we’re here on earth who is among the elect and who isn’t.

In all my years of listening to the top dogs of YRR Calvinism I think I heard that less than I have in 6h (and counting) of this one audiobook. Kinda makes me sad.

It’s a shame that people misrepresent reformed theology. Why not attack it based on their own confessions in context (like the Westminster) instead of trying to strawman it?

Further the idea of “double predestination” is simply an attempt to work out the meaning of the apostles words in Romans 9:22-24. If you want to call that “putting God in a box” I won’t stop you, but I hope you would apply the same logic to your own approach to the Scriptures.

By the way, Steve Lawson is not confessionally reformed. And we should be careful of how we judge him, lest the same judgment come upon us.

Fergus McLane,

Pink wouldn’t have made a very good New Calvinist.

Samuel Conner: If I choose to not rescue someone whom I could rescue, and who is not able to rescue himself, I have chosen that that person shall perish.

Genuine evangelism doesn’t exist within hyper-Calvinist circles. There is no Great Commission in their ranks, only a theo-mission to spread aberrant belief and practice.

Fergus McLane: In all my years of listening to the top dogs of YRR Calvinism …

When the New Calvinist flood came into the American church, I listened to a LOT of “top dog” and local YRR preachers’ online live and recorded sermons to determine what made them tick. I kept a check-list with four columns: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, YRR icon. At the end of that exercise, I had checked a lot of reference to “God”, with barely a mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. YRR icons (e.g., Piper) received more air-time than Jesus! Of most concern was the absence of preaching the Cross of Christ and the words of Jesus. The new reformers preached largely from the epistles of Paul, with little reference to the words in red. I concluded that New Calvinism was another gospel, which was not ‘the’ Gospel at all. To this day, I remain amazed that so many otherwise intelligent folks have fallen for the NeoCal message and method.

Steve Lawson – there but for the Grace of God go I. I am not a better man then he.

dee: I agree with you, as does Roger Olson. If one can save all those He creates and chooses to save only some arbitrarily, then there is no difference. It could be considered arbitrary since He does not select any based on the intrinsic goodness of the chosen ones.

Dee,

I just prayed for your new grandchild and your daughter that she will recover from her depression. May God bless your family.

dee,

IMO, the Calvinist mind does not grasp that Paul, in Romans 9, is talking about nations not individuals.

A trip back to Genesis, makes this clear:

“Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples will be separated from your body” (Genesis 25:23)

God was not talking about one baby born to be saved, another one born to be condemned. He was talking about two nations – one to be blessed, another to be cursed. The Messiah would come through the Jewish nation … a Messiah named Jesus who we must personally accept or reject rather than living a life wondering if we are “elect” or not. If you read Paul first (his epistles), you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first (the Gospels), the writings of Paul come into perspective. Jesus came to seek and to save those who are lost. Praise His Holy Name!

Max,

Paul’s anticipated objection doesn’t make any sense if he’s just talking about nations. If God is talking about two nations and one can freely join either nation, then there’s no objection regarding God’s justice.

wesley j Hull,

As one commenter said upstream “you’ll know them by their fruit”

dee:
The moderator, Dee, is in Boston caring for my newborn grandson because his mom, my daughter, was readmitted to the hospital for postpartum preeclampsia, an uncommon ailment in postpartum women,and her husband is staying with her. I am trying to keep up. New commenters are always put into moderation. TWW has a liberal policy regarding comments, but a newborn takes precedence.

Dee, that’s way more important than the conversations on double predestination. They aren’t going to change anyone’s minds, but we will all continue to tilt at each others windmills regardless. We’ve been through the prepartum –> postpartum preeclampsia, so I know how scary it is. Vague memories of magnesium infusions and frustrated doctors. Praying for you and yours. You are my sister in Christ, and that’s vastly more important than this other stuff.

Erp: a betrayal of trust by him of his wife and conduct unbecoming for his church

From the BNG article “The elders have met with Steve and will continue to come alongside him and pray for him with the ultimate goal of his personal repentance.”

So, has the man not confessed and repented yet?

Max: From the BNG article “The elders have met with Steve and will continue to come alongside him and pray for him with the ultimate goal of his personal repentance.”

I’m glad the “ultimate goal” is repentance and not restoration to ministry! Sounds like these elders might have their heads screwed on right for a change.

Max: If you read Paul first (his epistles), you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first (the Gospels), the writings of Paul come into perspective

Given how he exalts Christ and preaches the gospel in his letters, it’s hard to see how anyone could “read Jesus wrong”.
Given how he describes what he did before and after conversion, it’s hard to see how anyone could think he preached a different gospel from Christ, including the bits about assurance and election that even Peter endorses.

Many factors can contribute to the psyche and inhibitions of a septuagenarian, especially males. He simply may have lost his way within his family; it happens and it is not a sin. Forty years of marriage and 40 years of preaching can cause the head and the heart to find an open door. In this, Steve is still human, and a male with much to offer. There is no blame toward his wife or his ministries, simply earth-bound weariness of them both.

Erp: If all he is guilty of is the last option on my list, he might have nothing to repent of. If he is guilty of the first, have they reported it to the law?

Reportedly both Lawson and the woman he had an inappropriate relationship with claims there was no sex, but do you know how that goes? They’ll claim it but my guess is they did.

Micah,

No. The elect cannot sin as much as they want. Steve Lawson did not believed this. That is a caricature. The elect (=born again believers) will live PROGRESSIVELY holy lives because of the Spirits work in them and this will occur over a lifetime which is why all believer’s need Christ’s intercession. We still sin. But believers who sin are preserved (1 Peter 1:5-6), disciplined by God unto repentance (hebrews 12:5–11), and forgiven as they confess their sin (1John 1:7-9).

If Steve Lawson is a true believer, he will repent and he will do so publicly. He will be disqualified permanently.

The reference to reprobate was taught by Jesus (John 6:37; 10:26-27; John 17:24), Paul (Romans 9:16-22; Peter (1 Peter 2:8-9) and the rest of the Bible. The reprobate are simply those that God calls through the proclamation of the gospel, who refuse to hear, and are left to their own choice. Believers are from the same mass but the Spirit regenerates them and gives them life and the desire and power to turn and believe. Titus 3:3-7, John 3:3-7; Eph. 2:1-4 (esp. v. 4).

Like King David, Steve Lawson will repent if he’s had this salvation experience.

Lowlandseer: Given how he exalts Christ and preaches the gospel in his letters, it’s hard to see how anyone could “read Jesus wrong”.
Given how he describes what he did before and after conversion, it’s hard to see how anyone could think he preached a different gospel from Christ, including the bits about assurance and election that even Peter endorses.

I recommend you go to the Grace Life Bible Church You Tube site and find the playlist for The Gospels Project and listen to the sermons on the different gospels in the Bible. I also recommend you closely read Galatians chapter 1, Ephesians chapter 3, and Colossians chapter 1 using the King James Bible.

Max:
Fergus McLane,

Pink wouldn’t have made a very good New Calvinist.

Kind of a bummer. The more of the older guys I listen to the more I appreciate the depth of their content. I may not agree with it all, but at least they seemed to do their best to be coherent.

Jonathan,

” We can be assured that we are of the elect but we walk by faith which involves the future and the unseen and so by definition certainty is eliminated. We will not know (with certainty) that we will persevere (be saved and therefore elect) until we have persevered. This should keep us in a posture of brokenness and dependence on God.”
++++++++++++++++++

what is the point of such confusion and contradictions?

life is too short for this kind exercise in pondering.

i waste no time pondering conundrums for their own sake.

instead, i go straight to making God is my business partner in life, in excelling in what each day holds and in what he made me to be.

the interaction is practical and fun.

“I believe God made me for a purpose. He also made me fast, and when I run, I feel his pleasure.”–attributed to Eric Liddel in Chariots of Fire.

whatever brokenness and ‘not knowing (with certainty) that we will persevere (be saved and therefore elect) until we have persevered means,

it surely gets in the way of the straightforward pursuit of excelling in what God made us uniquely to be.

Robert,

I’m sure Dee appreciates your prayers, but preeclampsia is not depression. Preeclampsia is a very serious condition marked by elevated blood pressure and other symptoms. Sending well wishes to Dee’s daughter and grandbaby.

Jonathan Koehler: Fergus McLane,

Tried to post a first-time comment basically saying what u said but guess it didn’t clear the moderator. Very well said. I have Pink’s book but never read it, always thought he reads a bit too much symbolism into Scripture in his commentaries but had no idea he holds this view in the book.

Haven’t thought about Pink for a long time, and this is the second time this week for me that Pink has come up…interesting. Regarding Pink’s book, there is a weird background to that. It depends which version you have. Pink wrote, of course, the 1918, 1921, & 1929 editions. ““The Sovereignty of God was republished in 1961 by The Banner of Truth” with “minor revisions and abridgements.” These minor revisions and abridgements removed entire chapters, about a third of the book. From what I understand, it completely changed Pink’s perspective on reprobation through deletions and edits. This was supposedly based on Pink’s more mature thoughts, but I am not the only one who finds the argument unconvincing. If you want to see Pink’s thoughts, see the Baker editions. If you want to see an edit of them, see the Banner of Truth editions.

I am leaning heavily on this post which is consistent with what I know from various sources, including owning the BoT version of the book.

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/pinks-sovereignty-of-god-development.38897/

Oh, and agree that early Pink relies too much on symbolism. What is it with you guys that rely too much on symbolism that attracts you to hyper-Calvinism? I am looking at you, John Gill, A.W. Pink, and, dare I say it, Harold Camping?

On X formerly Twitter a person with the username @AmericanAnglican posted this:

My pastor Steve Lawson, at our church in the early 90s (Bible Church of Little Rock), made a young lady come to the pulpit and confess that she had had pre-marital sex to the whole congregation.

It was super serious and it was like she had the scarlet letter.

“She had to… ..undergo church discipline.

Contrast that to now. Dr. Lawson doesn’t have to stand up, ashamed, in front of anyone at his church. He doesn’t have to endure church discipline.

He’ll likely go to rehab, confess to a faceless online audience, and finally “move on.”’

I doubt Lawson will do what he required of this woman.

Steve240: Dr. Lawson doesn’t have to stand up, ashamed, in front of anyone at his church. He doesn’t have to endure church discipline.

He’ll likely go to rehab, confess to a faceless online audience, and finally “move on.”

And will, no doubt, get a standing ovation somewhere along the line

Fergus McLane: The more of the older guys I listen to the more I appreciate the depth of their content. I may not agree with it all, but at least they seemed to do their best to be coherent.

“Old” Calvinists are not “New” Calvinists. As a Southern Baptist for over 70 years (I’m done with them now since NeoCal took over), I sat alongside several classical Calvinists; I counted many as friends. While I didn’t agree with their theology, I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of Christian faith. The new reformers are an entirely different beast! They truly believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel to the church (Calvinism = Gospel to them). To accomplish that mission, they have proven to be arrogant, deceptive, and mean-spirited … which, of course, are not fruit of the Holy Spirit. They have a passion for what they are doing, but it is a misplaced passion.

Max: The new reformers are an entirely different beast!

Young Calvinist League.
Kalvinjugend.
Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard.

They truly believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel to the church (Calvinism = Gospel to them).

True Believers Changing The Face of The World.
60-100 years ago they would have been on-fire for Communism instead of Calvinism.

Grumpy: Haven’t thought about Pink for a long time, and this is the second time this week for me that Pink has come up…interesting.

I first heard of A.W.Pink in Internet Monk, many years ago.
Apparently he had reached the theoretical final end state of Protestantism, the One True Church of One. Worshipping alone, with his Prefect-Parsed Theology making him the Only True Christian among all the Apostates and Heretics.

Regarding Pink’s book, there is a weird background to that. It depends which version you have. Pink wrote, of course, the 1918, 1921, & 1929 editions. ““The Sovereignty of God was republished in 1961 by The Banner of Truth” with “minor revisions and abridgements.” These minor revisions and abridgements removed entire chapters, about a third of the book. From what I understand, it completely changed Pink’s perspective on reprobation through deletions and edits. This was supposedly based on Pink’s more mature thoughts, but I am not the only one who finds the argument unconvincing. If you want to see Pink’s thoughts, see the Baker editions. If you want to see an edit of them, see the Banner of Truth editions.

First, the name “Banner of Truth” sounds as full of itself as “Head Apostle of the People of Destiny”. A combination of Absolute Ego and Utter Righteosness Like that Christian Nationalist site that scared the crap out of my writing partner some years ago – “GOD HATH SAID”.

And the BoT-edited version has this aroma of a MiniTrue “correction” from 1984 or its direct inspiration, Comrade Yezhov the Vanishing NKVD Commissar.
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov#/media/File:Nikolai_Yezhov_with_Stalin_and_Molotov_along_the_Volga%E2%80%93Don_Canal,_orignal.jpg
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov#/media/File:Stalin_and_Molotov_along_the_Volga%E2%80%93Don_Canal,_Nikolai_Yezhov_removed.jpg

Things we learned moving around for the job and thus in many different theological camp churches:

1. Lutherans hold to single predestination. Many in the Reformed camp do so. Even the few who hold to double predestination do not believe the elect can sin as much as they want. The fact they don’t want to do that can be evidence that they are elect.

2. Total depravity does not mean what most people think it does. It isn’t depraved as we think of it today, but more the idea of being affected by the fall, or diminished by the fall, or tarnished or damaged by the fall. It is total not in degree of how bad we are, but as to which parts of us were affected by the fall. The totality of mankind is less than it would have been without the fall. We are not as strong, are prone to disease and doomed to die. Those are physical affects. Our intellect, our emotional life, our mental health, our talents and abilities, all are diminished. So we are totally depraved. John Wesley held to total depravity even while believing in a positive view of human beings. Many popes held the same view.

3. Predestination is taught in more ways than single predestination and double predestination. Many Arminians and Wesleyan-Arminians teach that God in His omniscience knew before the creation of the world who, given every chance, opportunity, perfect environment, etc would with their own free will He gave them choose faith in Christ, and who would reject Christ. With that knowledge he foreordained that those He foreknew would choose Christ would get those situations, opportunities, environment etc necessary for their salvation, and also went on to predestine them to be conformed to the image of His son.

4. Many believe when God speaks of choosing before the foundation of the world, what He chose was to save all those who are “in Christ.” They do NOT believe it means He chose who would be “in Christ.” He left that up to us.

Dee, praying for your daughter and family, and enjoy that grandbaby!

Afterburne,

Or rational.

Steve240: it was like she had the scarlet letter.

I’ve seen horrible assumptions by “Christian” influencers about Lawson’s inappropriate relationship partner. One shows the silhouette of a lady near a streetlight. One is mad that all the hot Christian chicks of prime childbearing age pursue the top percent of Christian dudebros or even pursue (horrors) non-Christians! One guy says women in their twenties like to add up “body counts”.
Far more likely is there’s a victim of adult clergy sex abuse. Given the alleged perp’s age, more victims may have been covered up in the past. And given that the only one to spread gossip about this one is Mr Johnson from Grace to You, odds are Lawson met his victim through that church or university or their conferences. And if she were raised in MacArthurism, oh the things she must have been taught about submission and great men o’Gawd who might have weak moments or hiccups!

Max,

I cannot speak for Steve Lawson but I can say our expository pastors DO NOT BELIEVE THEY CAN SIN SIN SIN! Your hatred of God is coming out in seething fangs by saying ANYONE is free to sin and sin by way of mere proximity to a pulpit is grossly irresponsible as a Christian.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Or it was “not really Sex so not really Sin” like Driscoll Sex (either end), Douggie ESQUIRE of Vision Forum on his Commander’s Handmaid, or Falwell Jr’s orders to Pool Boy.

True

When a leader like this is caught, they will try and downplay what they did even though they wouldn’t all this had it been a member of the church they pastored confronted on the same issue.

Todd Wilhelm: Phil Johnson’s original tweet and the tweet where he explained why he removed it can be found here

As the accuser of the brethren, I’d like to officially accuse Mr. Johnson of gossip. A parishioner was rightly miffed with his elders for not telling them what was up. Mr. Johnson could’ve told him I don’t know go ask your elders. Instead, he gossiped to the whole plamn danet juicy details that he was privy to. How did he know these things? Did he talk to both parties personally? Did both parties actually use the term “literal fornication”? If so, did he ask their permission to share their insistence with the whole plamn danet?
Beyond the gossip, Johnson’s advice in both tweet series is abominable and even laughable.
I’d love to read an OP focused on Johnson’s tweets. You could even go back a few years to when he promised to tweet no more forever, but came back a few days later, because he had to defend himself.

h,

“Any Creative who survived a “Christian Fellowship” knows this.
And that some of the damage is permanent.”
++++++++++++++

i’d say structure your life with creative pursuits with creative people wholly outside church.

i’m pursuing the degree in the creative field i should have gotten way back when (in addition to working). creative inspiration flowing like a fountain.

Max,

I’m not old enough to have spent that much time around Baptists, but I’m an ex-Baptist currently attending an Assemblies of God church as a Calvinist. Definitely a culture shock going from the “Sunday morning social club” atmosphere of Baptists to the Pentecostals! Lots of good conversations with fellow believers and a church full of folks who love God and care for the community which is something that has been so refreshing.

dee:
The moderator, Dee, is in Boston caring for my newborn grandson because his mom, my daughter, was readmitted to the hospital for postpartum preeclampsia, an uncommon ailment in postpartum women,and her husband is staying with her. I am trying to keep up. New commenters are always put into moderation. TWW has a liberal policy regarding comments, but a newborn takes precedence.

Dee, preeclampsia and taking care of newborn babes always take precedence over theological arguments – or they might be the best arguments. My DIL had preeclampsia with my first grandbaby; I supported them and did little else, other than pray without ceasing.

My prayers are with you all.

Steve240: When a leader like this is caught, they will try and downplay what they did even though they wouldn’t all this had it been a member of the church they pastored confronted on the same issue.

The people of Trinity Bible Church Dallas appear to have settled on a strategy of zero information, forever. This is an attempt to avoid the myriad of suits and future turmoil, since Lawson was involved in at least 3 Big Eva subsidiaries. Their strategy will not work, it will merely multiply the eventual pain and suffering. Of course, that ain’t their concern. They’re truly Admirals in rowboats.

This post makes me sad. We all are suseptible to sin especially those that Satan feels threatened by. He sinned, he confessed and repented. Instead of forgiveness this post immediately attacks. This is a sinful action and also should be repented. We should come along side fallen brothers and sisters in prayer, not accepting sin but acknowling that he has done what was right he stepped down from his positions and is seeking help for his behaivor. I hope you don’t find yourself in a similar position and have other believers attack rather than pray fornypur healing. Sad shameful post.
Those shaming the church for not engaging in gossip and sharing information…why should we be privilege to this?

Darlene: it seems that the silencing of members at Steve Lawson’s church has commenced, as well as the attempted silencing of Christians at large

They’ve most likely pulled out the don’t gossip card, along with touch not mine anointed, the internet is from the devil, etc. Robert Morris attempted to shame his followers into not reading blogs, calling them “Satan’s Hit List” and ranting “I’m on Satan’s hit list” nonsense … we now see why he didn’t want them reading outside sources. These characters have way too much control over the pew.

Fergus McLane: I’m an ex-Baptist currently attending an Assemblies of God church

IMO, “Bapticostals” are some of the most solid folks out there … it’s a good marriage of the Word (Baptists) and the Spirit (Pentecostals). During my tenure with Southern Baptists, I found that they had a bit of fear around AOG folks – whatever the Pentecostals had, they didn’t want it gettin’ on them! 🙂

R,

You are very correct as to your understanding of double election.

Nicole: This post makes me sad. We all are suseptible to sin especially those that Satan feels threatened by. He sinned, he confessed and repented. Instead of forgiveness this post immediately attacks

Where are you getting Lawson repented? The initial,Trinity announcement seem to indicate Lawson hadn’t repented yet. Where have you seen that has changed?

Also, if Lawson is truly going to repent he needs to do IMO a public confession. I seriously doubt he will do this.

Steve240: Reportedly both Lawson and the woman he had an inappropriate relationship with claims there was no sex, but do you know how that goes? They’ll claim it but my guess is they did.

As the old saying goes, “If you lust after bacon and eggs you’ve already committed breakfast in your heart …”

Another issue that bothers me about these so-called “leaders” is the assumption that they are, in fact, leaders of “the church”. They are not. They are self appointed pseudo-christian celebrities. Real leaders don’t do what Lawson has done. His buddies are not leaders of “the church”.

Jesus gave us instruction on how to recognize our leaders. These men do not qualify according to God’s Word.

I feel sorry for his wife and family, but not for all who put him on a pedestal.

And, his theology most certainly played a role in his scandal. Without it, he is a nobody who simply cheated on his wife and the world wouldn’t know about it. The collective “we” never seem to learn our lesson as “we” keep elevating these guys.

Oh, I just remembered. Maybe Lawson took Piper’s ” Christian Hedonism” thing a little too literally…

Birds of a feather and all that.

Tumbleweed: Piper’s ”Christian Hedonism”

Piper also claims to be a 7-point Calvinist … I mean, after awhile, what’s the point?!

Steve240,

Exactly w/r to public repentance….. these clowns love the publicity when they make their grand preaching ….. they expect us ( pew peons) to listen with awe…

elastigirl: “Any Creative who survived a “Christian Fellowship” knows this.
And that some of the damage is permanent.”
++++++++++++++

i’d say structure your life with creative pursuits with creative people wholly outside church.

Been attempting that since January 1976, when discovering Dungeons & Dragons (brown box) pulled me out of that end-of-the-world not-a-cult.

elastigirl: why presume the worst of human beings in accusing them of hating God? it’s just no fun for anyone, including you.

If you do not agree with and affirm every jot and tittle they come up with, you (generic you) are a God hater.
They (fanatics) will not tolerate any kind of diversity.

Wow this debate on Calvinism has really struck a raw nerve. I feel qualified to comment as i was raised Calvinist and a graduate of calvin university…Max hit the nail on the head!! I was the first in my family to leave this aberrant teaching and attended Bible churches when i got SAVED. My parents told me i was BORN SAVED…a member of the Covenant. Hooey. The Calvinistic churches wax eloquent about GOD but RARELY mention Christ!!!! They rarely speak of being converted. They believe they were BORN SAVED and culturally are hard to differentiate from the neighbors. In my neighborhood they will trll others that they are going to hell….for mowing the lawn on sunday. Tragic.

Shanon: All the majority of people on here are demonstrating is that they simply do not understand what is, often unfortunately, termed “Calvinism”.

I wish I had a quarter for every time I’ve heard that … that non-Calvinists are not smart enough to “understand” Calvinism, not theologically astute to comprehend the doctrines of grace. It’s a debate point that’s been tossed around for 500 years. Problem is, my personal experience with Christ is not open to the argument of others … what I see, I can’t un-see; what I know, I can’t un-know – it’s in my knower. “And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely”

Shanon,

Shanon: All the majority of people on here are demonstrating is that they simply do not understand what is, often unfortunately, termed “Calvinism”.

Well, thank goodness I don’t give a flying fig about Calvin. He is not the arbitrator of anyone’s salvation or relationship with God. I have great empathy for those who have been harmed by his thousands of words; more than are even in scriture.

Satin: Toward the end he said Satan’s biggest attacks are against those who are the biggest threat to him, and that Dr MacArthur had said from his hospital bed that what happened would strengthen Trinity Bible Church.

I always find it interesting how Calvinists are so quick to teach on the Sovereignty of God etc. then when something egregious happens they want to blame it on Satan.

C.J. Mahaney used the same tactic when trying to explain his fall as a leader despite claiming to believe in Calvinism.

Change your beliefs based on circumstances I guess.

Max: wish I had a quarter for every time I’ve heard that … that non-Calvinists are not smart enough to “understand” Calvinism, not theologically astute to comprehend the doctrines of grace. It’s a debate point that’s been tossed around for 500 years. Problem is, my personal experience with Christ is not open to the argument of others

I believe what you are saying is that Calvinists are so entrenched in their beliefs that they can’t see how someone could read the scriptures and not believe in Calvinism. They aren’t receptive that there are other beliefs that are viable. This is been my experience.

If you don’t believe in Calvinism, then you are a heretic or so they claim.

Steve240: Calvinists are so entrenched in their beliefs that they can’t see how someone could read the scriptures and not believe in Calvinism. They aren’t receptive that there are other beliefs that are viable.

Al Mohler expressed it this way as he helped launch the New Calvinist movement:

“What options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.”

No other options? Calvinism is the only truth? Such arrogance!

To the reformed mind, non-Calvinist expressions of faith are not viable (90+% of Christians worldwide do not accept the tenets of reformed theology). My primary concern about Calvinism, particularly hyper-Calvinism, is that it minimizes individual Christian experience. They prefer to think that the essence of Christianity can be found in a set of rigid doctrines ‘about’ grace, rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. I actually feel sorry for folks who have been ensnared through such indoctrination. I praise God for folks like Abigail who commented in this thread, who had the courage to question aberrant belief and practice and find her way to freedom in Christ. Whosoever will may come.

Shanon,

Shannon, Steve Lawson said it much faster than you. You should study up on it. When asked why so many “struggle” and will not accept the (so-called) “doctrines of grace”, Lawson replied, “they don’t know the Bible.” I’m willing for you to continue headlong in the beliefs you’re invested in. But experience has shown me that for every 1 calvinist, there are 99 non calvinists who are simply trying to understand “is God good?” “Does He truly love me?” The answer to both is an unequivocal YES!

elastigirl,

I see it the same way.
I tried years ago to read all that denser-than-uranium theology jive.
It just didn’t work. I found out just like Dorothy Gale that the real McCoy was right under my own nose, right in my own backyard (so to speak).

abigail:
Wow this debate on Calvinism has really struck a raw nerve. I feel qualified to comment as i was raised Calvinist and a graduate of calvin university…Max hit the nail on the head!! I was the first in my family to leave this aberrant teaching and attended Bible churches when i got SAVED. My parents told me i was BORN SAVED…a member of the Covenant. Hooey. The Calvinistic churches wax eloquent about GOD but RARELY mention Christ!!!! They rarely speak of being converted. They believe they were BORN SAVED and culturally are hard to differentiate from the neighbors. In my neighborhood they will trll others that they are going to hell….for mowing the lawn on sunday. Tragic.

Abigail is not exaggerating about confronting neighbors for mowing the lawn on Sunday. It’s quite the subculture.

If your only comfort in life and death is that you have the correct baptism and bloodlines, that’s a problem. If that is the basis of your assurance, you don’t need more theology. You need a faithful Savior named Jesus Christ.

There is a world of difference between Churchianity and Christianity.

I see no reason to locate my Christianity in the 16th century, in a California mega-church, or with a guru who got caught cheating on his wife.

Last time I checked, there was a cross a short walk outside of Jerusalem in the first century that I should be paying attention to.

Years ago I used to be a MacArthur groupie. Listened to and read everything JM. Then the Lord opened my eyes as I witnessed my wife and her friends as fully functioning believers in Christ who never gave one single second of thought or wasted any brain cells on Reformed Theology, JM, Lawson, et al, and didn’t even know who John Calvin was.

Thankfully He freed me from all that. And I’d rather follow my wife’s lead in that regard than any pseudo-christian guru any day.

Lawson has proven that he was never worth listening to in the first place. A so-called self appointed Man of God is one person who should be judged by his one worst act, he doesn’t get a pass because of his celebrity.

It ought to be a lesson to new believers and young Christians to unplug from the Christian Celebrity Subculture. How many scandals do we need to see to get it?

elastigirl: someone fault me. i dare you.

Ok.
If we give up capitalizing the first letter of sentences, then what is left?
Punctuation itself is at risk people!
Wake up.

Sandy: Punctuation itself is at risk people!

Punctuation Matters!

I was walking past a farm and a sign said:

“Duck, Eggs”

I thought: That’s an unnecessary comma – and then it hit me.”

Sandy,

well, who’s going to police the dotted i’s and crossed t’s? very dangerous business…

Micah,

One cannot know for certain their ultimate status as one of the Elect. There are many who appeared to be regenerate/saved but have fallen away and never repented. There are also many whom God as called out of their sin and restored through repentance and renewed faith. Time will tell.

Sandy,

look at you 🙂

Max: Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God.Scripture speaks much about the free will of man.When it comes to salvation, both work together in a way that is beyond human comprehension.To attempt to put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.

Amen.

Colin P. Kertson: One cannot know for certain their ultimate status as one of the Elect.

Ahhh, but I know for sure that I chose God … I was there when it happened!

elastigirl: however, i’m utterly bewildered as to how you can possibly have a relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit without the basis for trust.

Colin P. Kertson,

The people that are elect are those who are in on the whole deal assuming they were offered the whole deal (which mostly doesn’t happen).

Religion bosses that try to palm us off with half a Holy Spirit are denying us any Holy Spirit or Jesus or the Father at all.

Dee isn’t second guessing anyone about whether the subject of this column is going to “be saved”, she is pointing out the legitimate public fact that preaching less than the truth has backfired on him (so far).

This is why we need cast iron logic (such as that of the honest Arminius) to back up our assurance.

The people that are going to be in anguish in the hereafter – as opposed to now – are those who contrived for themselves / each other positions of authority while stealing the bread of life from the ears and lips of those smaller than themselves.

In my mailbox this morning, aperceptive piece that alludes to Mr Lawson (and others) and offers timely advice about celebrity (Christian) culture.

https://www.evangelical-times.org/jordan-peterson-and-russell-brand-say-the-lords-prayer-so-the-internet-goes-crazy/?ref=early-online-access-newsletter

Lowlandseer:
In my mailbox this morning, aperceptive piece that alludes to Mr Lawson (and others) and offers timely advice about celebrity (Christian) culture.

https://www.evangelical-times.org/jordan-peterson-and-russell-brand-say-the-lords-prayer-so-the-internet-goes-crazy/?ref=early-online-access-newsletter

Just the title of that one screams “PERSECUTION ALERT!!!!!!!”

He defiitely did not believe what he preached. The idea of being exempt, if I see it right, is tongue in cheek. But I know a teeny tiny bit about this. He is probably not a believer at all. To go on for 5 years is not a stumbling sin that needs repented of and restoreation. It is a man who was deceived into thinking he was a genuine Christian, who had some natural abilities that flung him into Reformed Calvinist Hyper Space. Then the fame, glory, attention, applause, approvaL, pride, or whatever exact way it happened, he embraced a sinful lifestyle and then hid it for years. Lied, Lied, deceived, hid his sin, pretended. But God will not be mocked. Although not every predator is caught on this earht, many are. Some get away with it, then stand before the Judge of the Universe. Others are eposed. My heart goes out to his wife and family The woman is just as much at fault, although some of you will call it Adult Clergy Abuse, I disagree.

Darlene: So I’ve read through all the comments here and it seems that the subject of Calvinism appears to be the overwhelming topic discussed. Honestly, I think that can be a distraction … what causes a person like Steve Lawson to act in such an irresponsible manner?

From the title of this piece: “believed he was exempt”?

Is there something in Calvinistic theology that would “exempt” such behavior by a man of the cloth? Is there some sort of allowable balance between determinism and free agency/moral responsibility in Calvinism? I don’t know, I’m asking.

Max,

Perhaps your looking for perfection in which you’ll never find. He was fired isn’t that enough? It doesn’t discredit the truth of the bible in which yes predestination and election is a very real biblical doctrine. A man of the cloth? What, as if mere men could be holy in and of themselves? A beloved man of God fell and still forgiven in Christ. He is still loved and still will be by those who support the true church and are praying for him for restoration because that is what real Christians do.

Bob M: he embraced a sinful lifestyle and then hid it for years. Lied, Lied, deceived, hid his sin, pretended

All the while scaring the pew to death by preaching fire and damnation, while living on the edge of fire and damnation himself. It’s a familiar pulpit technique to divert attention … preaching against “sinful lifestyle” while living it themselves.

Steve240: One legitimate response to claiming gossip is “talking about someone’s problem when you are neither part of the problem or solution” is that if this a leader and especially a well known “Christian” Leader then really all of the body of Christ is part of the problem and solution.

I totally agree with you. I’m just turning one of the Calvinistas’ favorite silencing methods around on one man, Phil Johnson, who is part of the problem. He tweeted details which, though probably true, may have betrayed a confidence. How did he know the things he tweeted? He implied he talked with “both parties” but didn’t say so. And “no literal fornication”. Just bizarre, and I assume there was lots of virtual fornication. And then he deleted the tweets and shamed the readers that they should address any questions personally to the silent Mr Lawson. I don’t know about any power struggles in the MacArthur camp, but it’s just possible Johnson has something to gain by Lawson no longer having existed. Maybe gossip isn’t the accurate term for his tweeting. I’m glad we know a little more than the lord is telling the patiently perplexed church elders. And glad reporters, bloggers, and commenters are talking about this.

Darlene: If we look at the articles on TWW over the years, however, it is clear that people of various theological persuasions commit the same. egregious acts as Steve Lawson. So it isn’t just Calvinistic/Reformed theology that is at fault here.

Yes, sin and rebellion in the pulpit are not limited to theological creed. Non-Calvinists can be as totally depraved as Calvinists.

Max: Yes, sin and rebellion in the pulpit are not limited to theological creed. Non-Calvinists can be as totally depraved as Calvinists.

But do non-Calvinists brag about their Total Depravity?
Or play “More Totally Depraved Than Thou” as PROOF of their Godliness?

Story here that is providing updates.

https://protestia.com/2024/10/03/betrayed-more-details-about-steve-lawsons-double-life-revealed/

Steve240,

Much has been written about the stealth and deception of the New Calvinists. This is another example.

R: Calvinism … I think it honors God’s sovereignty in a way that other theological systems cannot

As a non-Calvinist for 70+ years, I’ve never dishonored God’s sovereignty and He’s never stood in the way of my free-will. The way I view the whole of Scripture, sovereignty and choice just seem to go hand-in-hand. IMO, when the Gospel is preached without jot & tittle doctrine, God “elects” whosoever-will-may-come into His Kingdom when they acknowledge and accept Christ as Savior. I realize this is the great dividing point in Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist belief and practice … it’s just unfortunate for any of us to get so caught up on theology that we miss what God is doing.

Believer
So, what if God, in His sovereignty, chooses not to determine the choices of man?

Amen!

Every time a Calvinist “leader” gets in trouble the discussion invariably veers into (or is purposely steered into) a discussion on the merits of an “ism” that is, at best, a weird little religious sect. The real issues are obfuscated.

Mr Lawson apparently has to be “worked with” to get to the point of repentance, which simply reveals an unrepentant heart.

It’s as if his church leaders are saying, “Please repent so we can put this behind us and keep our positions.”

If a “MOG” needs to be asked to repent, just how Godly was he in the first place? How “manly”?

Tumbleweed: Mr Lawson apparently has to be “worked with” to get to the point of repentance, which simply reveals an unrepentant heart.

There’s a bad case of unrepentant repentance in certain corners of the American pulpit.

Alex 2,

A 500-year debate that will never be settled this side of Heaven.

Alex 2,

Note the rapid-fire Strings of Bible-verse Zip Codes; this is usually a bright red warning flag indicating Weaponization.

Alex 2,
What causes a person like Steve Lawson to do something like this? (Someone asked)

Simple! God pre-ordained, before the foundation of the world, that Lawson would do this! It is totally and completely God’s fault for man has no free will to do such a thing!!!
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek!)

The only one that God chose before the foundation of the world is Christ. Those that hear the word, the gospel if their salvation, and BELIEVE are placed IN CHRIST and sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Before the foundation of the world God chose those who place their faith in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him. He predestined believes to become sons of God as well as ALL the spiritual blessings in the heavenly places In Christ!

Just read what it says and stopped getting confused by all the falseness!

Believer:
R,

Because you seem sincere in your explanation, let me ask:
Is there anything God, in His sovereignty, can choose not to do?

I believe He has chosen NOT to determine human choices, thereby requiring a love response to His free, gracious and loving offer of salvation. Whereas, calvinism attempts to defend His sovereignty by finding the locus of all choices in God.

So, what if God, in His sovereignty, chooses not to determine the choices of man?

Believer:
R,

Because you seem sincere in your explanation, let me ask:
Is there anything God, in His sovereignty, can choose not to do?

I believe He has chosen NOT to determine human choices, thereby requiring a love response to His free, gracious and loving offer of salvation. Whereas, calvinism attempts to defend His sovereignty by finding the locus of all choices in God.

So, what if God, in His sovereignty, chooses not to determine the choices of man?

Bob,

Yes. Chosen to be holy and blameless before Him in love. Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

As you said “Just read what it says and stop getting confused by all the falseness!”

Regardless of theological persuasion, it’s wise to read the whole of Scripture and stop cherry-picking verses to support pet theologies.

Tumbleweed: What the smoke screen of Calvinism serves to do in this case is to distract from the issue, which is two women victimized by an allegedly “Christian” leader.

Exactly. Theological defense of sin is a sin itself. Supporting abusers while ignoring victims is as bad as it gets.

Bob: Why Calvinism is even brought up is because of their false claim that God pre-ordains all that comes to pass before the foundation of the world. That means Lawson’s affair and fall from ministry is all part of God’s plan!

I suppose that would fall under the hyper-Calvinism category – these folks just dig themselves into a deeper hole with such belief. Pre-ordaining sin doesn’t sound like the God I know.

Bob: “hyper-Calvinism” … IS Calvinism!

I suppose that is why 90+% of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years. They think the essence of Christianity can be found in a set of rigid doctrines ‘about’ grace, rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the Living Christ.

Tumbleweed: the conversation degenerates into a discussion and defense of Calvinism … the issue of spiritual abuse, or church abuse, often gets lost

While certainly not limited to Calvinism, TWW has reported numerous times that authoritarian pulpits are prevalent in such ministries which can be spiritually abusive. TWW has a mission to inform and warn about abusive ministers and ministries, while also speaking for abuse victims.

Bob: These guys put guilt trips on people telling them how they MUST persevere to the end in order to be saved.

And even that isn’t enough.
Remember “Evanescent Grace”?
God sending False Assurance of Election/Salvation to the Reprobate, indistinguishable from the real thing until The Great White Throne? “FOOLED YOU! HAW! HAW! HAW!”

Steve Lawson was in the lime light. A man in his position has fallen but God will restore him. It’s men like him who Satan targets because of their effectiveness in the body of Christ. Not one of us are better than Steve Lawson. Our sins were not not published but his was. Have mercy on him, forgive him and pray for him, his wife, his family and for this other woman. Mercy triumphs over judgment and love covers a multitude of sins.