Understanding Voyeurism in the Evangelical Church. It Is One More Difficult Paraphilia and “Repent and Stop It” Won’t Work.

Posted on by September 19, 2024avatar

Sept 14 was “Celebrate the Moon” night. NASA/Bill Ingalls

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one’s miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.” ― C. S. Lewis.

Why in the world am I doing a post on voyeurism?

Over the last three months, I have become concerned by the number of evangelical Christians who want to declare something a sin and be done with it. A  person did something bad and needs to repent and stop doing the weird actions that led to this “sin.” In other words, “Stop it and repent.” Then, life can get back to normal. But what if these actions indicate a problem that goes beyond the sin? What if the actions are a crime in the eyes of the law? What if these actions suggest a psychiatric disorder and that psychiatric disorder is one of obsession that is very difficult to overcome? What if the compulsion is present, even after receiving intervention?

What is a paraphilia?

We all should know that pedophilia is a serious problem that goes beyond “repent and stop it.” Pedophilia is part of a group of issues that are viewed as paraphilias. WebMD defines these problems as:

Paraphilias are abnormal sexual behaviors or impulses characterized by intense sexual fantasies and urges that keep coming back. The urges and behaviors may involve unusual objects, activities, or situations that are not usually considered sexually arousing by others.

Often, a paraphilia may be necessary for the person who has it to function sexually, despite the fact it may also be a source of significant distress. Paraphilias can lead to personal, social, and career problems, and a person with a paraphilia may be called “kinky” or “perverted.” The associated behaviors may also have serious social and legal consequences.

The article goes on to define some paraphilias, which include but are not limited to:

  • Exhibitionism (“Flashing”)
  • Pedophilia
  • Voyeurism (“Peeping Tom”)

What causes these paraphilias, and how is the person affected?

From WebMD:

  • It is not clear what causes paraphilia. Some experts believe it is caused by a childhood trauma, such as sexual abuse.
  • In most cases, the individual with a paraphilia has difficulty developing personal and sexual relationships with others.
  • It is seen more often in males.
  • Many paraphilias begin during adolescence and continue into adulthood.
  • They tend to diminish with age but not always.

Again, from WebMD:

Most cases of paraphilia are treated with counseling and therapy to help the person modify their behavior. Medications may help to decrease the compulsiveness associated with paraphilia and reduce the number of deviant sexual fantasies and behaviors. In some cases, hormones are prescribed for individuals who experience frequent occurrences of abnormal or dangerous sexual behavior. Many of these medications work by reducing the individual’s sex drive.

To be most effective, treatment for paraphilia must be provided on a long-term basis. Unwillingness to comply with treatment can hinder its success. It is imperative that people with paraphilias of an illegal nature receive professional help before they harm others or create legal problems for themselves.

These paraphilias are challenging to overcome and require intensive intervention, mainly if they are linked to crimes.

For more information, here is a paper from the NIH that I use frequently, Paraphilia.

What is voyeurism?

A few years ago, a local young man in his 20s was arrested for peering into the windows of women when they were dressing. He came from a Christian home with involved parents. Of course, it was whispered about in the broader Christian community. Rumor had it that he had done it before. By that time, I was aware that voyeurism was a paraphilia. Of course, the typical “repent and don’t do it” was murmured by an uneducated evangelical community. I  noticed their eyes glazing over when I mentioned that this was a difficult problem and that he needed help. Some Christians are opposed to psychiatric intervention.

“Peeping Tom” syndrome is usually called voyeurism.

According to WebMD:

The concept of voyeurism has evolved over the last century. At first it described a sexual disorder in which voyeuristic desire a) required an unknowing and/or unwilling victim and b) interfered with an individual’s ability to form relationships and achieve sexual gratification.

For purposes of this post, we will focus on criminal voyeurism. Here are forms of voyeurism that are acceptable to the law. Think strip clubs, etc. Today, I want to concentrate on voyeurism, which is illegal, sinful, and a psychiatric disorder that is worrisome when laws are broken.

In United States federal law, the Video Voyeurism Prevention Act makes it illegal to knowingly record or broadcast an image of an individual’s “private area” in a situation or location where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The law defines “private area” as the “naked or undergarment clad genitals, pubic area, buttocks, or female breast of an individual.”

Some states have additional laws.

Florida prohibits individuals from secretly and with “lewd, lascivious, or indecent intent” observing a person in a space where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy or observing a private area of their body in circumstances where they can reasonably expect the area to be safely concealed.

A pastor is arrested for voyeurism.

The Roys Report posted Michigan Pastor Confessed to Hiding Camera in Church Bathroom for Years.

Will Johnson, the former worship pastor director, of. 2|42 Community Church in Brighton, Michigan. 2|42is a non-denominational church with seven campuses across the state.

…(he) confessed to hiding a camera in a church bathroom for (two) years after a staff member discovered the camera in a unisex bathroom in the backstage area  (Dee editorialized:-Do they eve call it a pulpit or is it a stage now…)

… charged with tampering with evidence, surveilling an unclothed person, a felony, and using a computer to commit a crime, according to court records.

…He used the camera to target specific individuals known to frequent the bathroom.

…This bathroom was used by voumteer and staff who have been notified if they were filmed.

The church is a place of trust, and those with paraphilias will use that trust to find their victims, so we must become savvy, not shocked.

As you can see, the church responded rapidly to reporting the incident to the police and apparently plans to have a third-party investigation. The church member’s response indicated why I needed to write this post about a tough subject. He was “shocked.” However, he understood this could happen anywhere, like school, church, and a hospital. These are places of trust. I would add Boy Scouts, youth sports teams, etc.

Jesus told us wolves would be among us, and we have to wise up and expect that this could happen anywhere. Will Johnson has a long and challenging road ahead of him. He will probably go to prison. Hopefully, that result will scare him enough to seek help. I hope the church will educate its people on the complexities of this situation. It is not only sinful; it is a crime and a psychiatric disorder that is hard to overcome.

To those who suffer in silence, get help before you are arrested for having harmed an innocent child.

Comments

Understanding Voyeurism in the Evangelical Church. It Is One More Difficult Paraphilia and “Repent and Stop It” Won’t Work. — 108 Comments

  3. This is an important post, Dee.

    “I hope the church will educate its people on the complexities of this situation. It is not only sinful; it is a crime and a psychiatric disorder that is hard to overcome.

    “To those who suffer in silence, get help before you are arrested for having harmed an innocent child.”

    Today, we read about the Brighton, Michigan pastor with church bathroom hidden cameras. Once again, the DEVIL himself establishes himself in CHURCHES, via a very disturbed person who is ALSO a PASTOR, no less.

    Grateful to you, Dee for this prescient post, following the news of another problem “pastor” or “pastor” with issues way beyond someone with problems. Serious disturbing stuff, criminality right in the pulpit, leading a local church.

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  4. Riley:
    Do you have any information regarding if and when voyeurism escalates to direct contact/assaults? I wonder if some of these voyeurs are selling their recorded material.

    Dominique Pelicot, who drugged his wife and filmed 80 or so men raping her over about 10 years, only got caught for that because he’d been arrested for taking pictures up women’s skirts.

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  5. What causes these paraphilias, and how is the person affected?

    In the circles covered by this blog, I’m sure Christianese Purity Culture is a major factor. Stifle anything even resembling healthy sexual and relationship matters and it will still be there, fermenting and mutating until it surfaces in some really twisted forms.

    As I keep putting it, “Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else these days, they just show it differently”.

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  6. I noticed their eyes glazing over when I mentioned that this was a difficult problem and that he needed help. Some Christians are opposed to psychiatric intervention.

    Because that’s of The Devil instead of The LOORD.
    Of the Flesh instead of The Spirit (like MEEEEEEEEEEE!)

    Holy Nincompoop Syndrome, where the more stupid and ignorant you are, the more Spiritual and Godly you must be. “The Wisdom of GOD is Foolishness to Men” played ass-backwards in fluent Christianese.

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  7. All the ongoing reports of such paraphiliac behaviors in Evangelical churches suggest that something deeper is going on within that culture. I have long suspected their child rearing practices to be one major element… “spare the rod”, heavy discipline and conformity, Purity Culture, hysterical fear of sex of any kind, misogyny, unwillingness to let kids explore and take risks, etc. Raising a child in this milieu may be predictive of future sexual dysfunctions and psychiatric maladies. Dr. Dobson may have fostered a generation of sexual deviants.

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  11. Max: Pursuit of holiness is a lost message in the 21st century church.Few are willing to preach it because they are not guilty of holiness themselves.

    And just what is Holiness?
    Scratching your face into scar tissue and gargling lye like St Rose of Lima?
    Spending 24/7/365 praying and speaking in Tongues?
    Becoming a walking Jack Chick tract?
    Becoming so SPIRITUAL you cease to be human (or even physical)?
    So HOLY you become insufferable?
    And (for all the above) being Holier Than Thou. And Thou. And Thou.
    THOSE kinds of Holiness are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

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  12. Stavros:
    All the ongoing reports of such paraphiliac behaviors in Evangelical churches suggest that something deeper is going on within that culture.I have long suspected their child rearing practices to be one major element… “spare the rod”, heavy discipline and conformity, Purity Culture, hysterical fear of sex of any kind, misogyny, unwillingness to let kids explore and take risks, etc.Raising a child in this milieu may be predictive of future sexual dysfunctions and psychiatric maladies.Dr. Dobson may have fostered a generation of sexual deviants.

    I came to the same conclusion long ago.
    A lot inside the Christianese Bubble bears only a vague resemblance to outside Reality.
    It’s like an augmented-reaiity LARP in an alternate reality with alternative facts.
    Whether the name of the LARP is Left Behind, Handmaid’s Tale, or early Frnak Peretti.
    I have long believed an infusion of Jewish culture – earthiness, respect for learning, emphasis on the here-and-now instead of 100% on the Hereafter – is needed for American Christians. They need a Reality Check, BAD.

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  16. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Geniune, non-cult-like, poius Judism is actually quite interesting… for example, I have heard it taught by Ancient Near Eastern scholar, that focuses on Hebrew cultures, and related cultures, say that the sacrafical system of the OT is only for unintenional “sins”, not for intentional sins.. he subsequently cites example after example of grevious sins commited by characters in the OT, that repent, maybe use sackcloth and ashes, but no specific sacrifice..

    Another interesting definition is that being “good” is “higher” than be “righteous” Funny, the “Good brothers” does not have the ring of the “Righteous Brothers”…
    So, the question of what “holy” means is a great question..

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  18. Stavros,

    I’ve wondered about child-rearing, particularly moral formation, shaping of the conscience.

    I have this uneasy sense that perhaps in fundamentalist circles, moral formation is about internalizing Biblical prohibitions and requirements. This is kind of a “procedural” and “external constraint” approach to the conscience, which (it seems to me) is troublingly similar to how conscience works in sociopaths (at least from what I recall of Martha Stout’s The Sociopath Next Door.

    This is not to speak against external constraints on conscience (society is full of them in the form of “laws”), but to worry that if one relies primarily on these, there may be a stunted moral sense. I think one needs to also have (for lack of better word) an “aesthetic” component to the conscience — an appreciation that certain ways of treating people are ugly while others are beautiful. One would like to cultivate in the young a taste for the beautiful ways of being human.

    At least that’s how it seems to me. I was parented inexpertly and have no first-hand experience of this challenging responsibility. It’s all a bit theoretical to me, but I have an uneasy sense that child-rearing in the churches is not leading to dramatically better human beings than are produced by child-reading practices in the wider world. I hope I’m wrong about that.

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  22. Samuel Conner,

    “external constraints on conscience…if one relies primarily on these, there may be a stunted moral sense. …an appreciation that certain ways of treating people are ugly while others are beautiful.

    I have an uneasy sense that child-rearing in the churches is not leading to dramatically better human beings than are produced by child-reading practices in the wider world”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    well, i look at all my atheist and agnost friends and family. the kids on up to teens on up to young adult and then full fledged adults all have stellar character.

    they refuse to lie or cheat. it’s beneath them. it’s reprehensible.

    they are kind and generous. they care about people. their ‘neighbor’, wherever they might be at any given point in time.

    they treat people they would want to be treated.

    because they can’t bear to hurt someone.

    whereas i observe many fellow christians…

    running all this through some intellectual grid,

    not permitting themselves the life cycle of God-given natural & spontaneous emotion and feeling

    but snuffing it out before it can get a start.

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  23. Its scary to think about, but every time you walk into a restroom, locker room or changing room, count the number of people present and that is the minimum number of recording devises that are present in the room with you. Today, its very easy for anyone to be a voyeur. Additionally, given many churches are quiet and uninhabited spaces for much of the week, it gives creeps plenty of time and opportunity to set up their traps. Whether in a church or any public or private building, I think that this is most likely a bigger problem than we realize. I don’t want to walk around always worrying about being recorded, but a healthy sense of paranoia is probably warranted today.

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  24. Headless Unicorn Guy: And just what is Holiness?

    A former pastor at a church near here, who is sadly no longer with us, but who always lived his sermons before ever preaching them, once made an observation on holiness that I still find extraordinarily beautiful. To quote him as accurately as I can remember:

    “The only truly holy Man who ever lived, was also the most compellingly attractive to sinners”.

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  27. Jeffrey J Chalmers: Another interesting definition is that being “good” is “higher” than be “righteous”

    I understand that in Jewish thought, “Righteousness” always has an element of bringing Justice for the grievances of the downtrodden. Very different.

    Another difference is the attitude towards The End. A YouTube comment I read a couple weeks ago was by a Jew who recounted that he was aghast at the Christian take on Messiah coming on the Last Day — that the Christian version was all Death and Destruction while the Jewish version he was raised with was about Making Things Right and ending the Wrong.

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  29. Nick Bulbeck,

    ““The only truly holy Man who ever lived, was also the most compellingly attractive to sinners”.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    interesting…. trying to figure out what that means…

    maybe, most people feel sort of sick when do something they know is wrong. we are good at distracting ourselves away from that feeling. and indeed, the business of just plain surviving is a great distraction.

    but, maybe this definition means that Jesus was the kind of person who when you were talking to him it was as if you were the only person on earth.

    he was so tuned in to you, and focussing only on you.

    and hearing you. seeing you.

    and you somehow felt he accepted you, affirmed you, even the deepest parts of being totally messed up… that somehow, all was well.

    and he could help with that. (the deepest parts of being totally messed up)

    [occasionally i’ll meet someone who is like this. i am sensitive to being heard, being seen {or being ignored} so this is how I parse out that definition of holiness]

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  31. Nick Bulbeck,

    How odd. Brennan Manning said exactly the same thing! He also said this – “ The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.”

    And all this on a day when I’ve just received this from the Evangelical Times – “ Steven Lawson removed after ‘inappropriate relationship’ with a woman“.
    – https://www.evangelical-times.org/r/ae669428?m=45b1f586-7f48-4c7a-bf0e-35f6bb485eb7

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  33. Lowlandseer: “The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” (Brennan Manning)

    God had something to say about that, too:

    “And so the Lord says, ‘These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.” (Isaiah 29:13)

    “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.” (Matthew 15:8-9)

    “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites (play-actors, pretenders), as it is written [in Scripture], ‘THESE PEOPLE HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME'” (Mark 7:6-8)

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  34. Lowlandseer:
    Nick Bulbeck,

    How odd. Brennan Manning said exactly the same thing! He also said this – “ The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.”

    I would amend this slightly for the 2024. Atheism, or the disbelief in God, is quite rare in the US—just a couple of percent.

    A second group labeled ‘nones’ or nothing in particular is quite a bit more common at around 25%. Nones tend not to deny the existence of God; they just don’t find religion to have a meaningful place in their life.

    The most commonly cited reasons nones have for leaving the religion in which they were raised is their church’s response to sexual abuse or they no longer believe in the church’s teachings.

    About 20 years ago, we had a senior pastor suddenly retire.

    Then, about five years ago, we got a letter from the current pastor that there was an abusive relationship with a confirmation student and that the former pastor was urged to retire for the good of the church.

    Overall, Church attendance/membership/giving took a slight dip, with most people saying, “Let bygones be bygones.” Unsurprisingly, confirmation classes have been less than half of what they were five years ago. The kids are saying no, and their parents are unable/unwilling to force them to attend.

    Talking to the kids who stopped attending confirmation, few consider themselves atheists. They just don’t trust that when push comes to shove, the church and its members will look out for the church and not them in a similar situation.

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  35. Dave: A second group labeled ‘nones’ or nothing in particular is quite a bit more common at around 25%. Nones tend not to deny the existence of God; they just don’t find religion to have a meaningful place in their life.

    There are a lot of “Dones” who comment on TWW … done with organized church, but not done with Jesus … done with the traditions and teachings of men which produce no spiritual life … done with belief and practice which subordinate women and discipline the heck out of you if you question them. They have found refuge in being the Church without going to church. What’s the point in going to church if God doesn’t?! Yep, being a “Done” ain’t so bad.

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  39. Quick response- Having a busy day. There are specifics that affect the evangelical church differently than say the average nonreligios individual. These issues involve some demanding forgiveness and exhibit cheap repentance and cheap grace. The average unaffiliated Joe would punch the guy in the face. I think you know the diffference.And I am in an evangelical church.

    Dee, instead of titling it “Understanding Voyeurism in the Evangelical Church” just title it, “Understanding Voyeurism.” Voyeurism is not unique to the Evangelical Church is it? Your bias is showing.

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  40. Max: There are a lot of “Dones” who comment on TWW … done with organized church, but not done with Jesus … done with the traditions and teachings of men which produce no spiritual life … done with belief and practice which subordinate women and discipline the heck out of you if you question them.

    Thankfully, I was not part of that type of church—just a short-sighted church that engaged in mental and spiritual gymnastics to allow a leader to evade responsibility 20 years ago. So, I took a different approach.

    With the help of the county director of child protective services, who was also a church member, I pushed to add a clause to the church bylaws that requires all paid staff and church leadership to be mandatory reporters. All volunteers working with children are required to follow the same guidelines as school district volunteers.

    People are much less willing to stick their heads in the sand for someone else if they know they are personally liable for doing so. Plus, it brought the issue to light without revictimizing the former student. Instead, the focus was on tangible measures to increase accountability, requiring the church to do better going forward.

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  43. (Dee editorialized:-Do they even call it a pulpit or is it a stage now…)

    American churches ceased having pulpits when they built platforms over prayer altars so that “pastors” could have more room to strut their stuff on stage. It’s all a grand performance now, with big screens, fog machines and skinny jeans. But, actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience in the pew willing to buy tickets to the show. Beware, God is not mocked … the show will soon end for both pulpit and pew.

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  46. elastigirl:
    pat,

    “Why does God say, Be ye Holy as I am Holy?”
    ++++++++++++

    first question – how does that relate to what Stavros said?

    second question – what does it mean?

    Here’s the full verse:

    13 So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control. Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world. 14 So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. 15 But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16 For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.”[a]

    What that has to with the initial comment I don’t comprehend except a call to Christians that there’s no excuse and you should know better.

    The kicker is, paraphilia folks do know better, they can’t stop.

    We had a teacher in our area who was dinged for uploading kid pics. Turns out he’d been dinged when his computer went for repairs and the tech found kid pics in trash. Cops spoke to him and let him off believing he downloaded them by mistake. One would think he’d stop based on that close call but nope, he got knobbled by Microsoft on the Bing image search.

    Maybe he thought no one cares about the MySpace of search engines but there you go.

    So…God or no, and god isn’t saying a “holy” heck of a lot these days.. it’s unlikely that fear will work. Especially since you can re-holy yourself with your handy dandy “repent & redemption” card.

    Voyeurs will keep peeping through them “holies”.

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  47. senecagriggs: Voyeurism is not unique to the Evangelical Church is it? Your bias is showing.

    You’re right of course, but Dee’s purpose for this blog is to expose abuses within the evangelical church. Or, as the apostle Paul said, “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” ( 1 Corinthians 5:12)

    Side note: it looks like only you, me, and Nick still have avatar photos. Your pic is probably the prettiest. 🙂

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  48. Pat,

    “Read 1 Peter 1:13-16 Pretty explanatory.”
    ++++++++++

    well, let’s seeee heeeere…

    13 So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control. Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world. 14 So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. 15 But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16 For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.”
    .
    .
    as to the second question – what does ‘Be ye Holy as I am Holy’ mean?

    well, there’s a list of should’s and shouldn’t’s that seems like boilerplate stuff to me. obvious things, abstract things whose word count doesn’t yield much meaning.

    and then an admonition to be holy.

    who knows if the first list defines the final admonition. i sort of doubt it. I don’t see Peter as being a thoughtful wordsmith.

    He was choleric, impulsive, impetuous. as i see it, he was just listing stuff.

    christianisms of the day (& of this day, too) that so many of my fellow christians deal like playing cards — but no one really knows what they mean.

    holy seems to have meant something to him, at least. who knows.

    still don’t know how this relates to Stavros’ point of the potential for a child-rearing environment of shaming fear-based, harsh, hyper-control to backfire.

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  50. elastigirl,

    I think you do Peter a disservice. Like Andrew and Philip, he came from Bethesda, near the city of Julias which Herod Philip built, and they must have spoken Greek as well. The Galilean fishermen did not belong to the rural lower classes, but to the commercial middle class. It can be assumed that most of the Twelve came from devout families and would have had, like Jesus, a solid basic education in the parental home, the synagogue and elementary school. (Riesner 1988, 413). He preached to Jews in Jerusalem and to Gentiles in Caesarea. At Pentecost he quotes Joel 3:1-2 and applies it to what the hearers have just heard and experienced. (Eckhard J Schnabel, Early Christian Mission, 398-405).
    What he writes in 1 Peter is an example of his missionary theology – you once lived like this in darkness but now live like this in marvellous light, towards God, in Christ, by the Holy Spirit. He encourages them to persevere and live in hope of the Second Coming. (also Schnabel).

    I would also disagree with Jeffrey regarding the OT sacrificial system. Leviticus ch4 and the latter part of ch5 does say unintentional, but the beginning of ch5 and ch6 are directed at deliberate, intentional sins.

    As for Stavros’ comments, I think he might be implying that a strict family upbringing and possibly also homeschooling leads to repressed feelings in later life expressing themselves in a variety of negative ways while Pat is suggesting that such an upbringing might encourage living a holy God-pleasing life, but that’s just speculation on my part.

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  53. elastigirl: whereas i observe many fellow christians…

    running all this through some intellectual grid,

    not permitting themselves the life cycle of God-given natural & spontaneous emotion and feeling

    but snuffing it out before it can get a start.

    I’ve noticed that too. So wrapped up in ‘Christian’ holiness and ideology, that they can’t relax and be human.

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  58. Lowlandseer,

    Peter…
    +++++++++++

    yeah, i see the validity of what you’re saying.

    i prefer to be very conservative as far as reading things into the text (that aren’t actually there), and approaching it like an algebraic equation, in search of a formula (that isn’t actually there).

    (funny how fluid the word conservative is)

    and i reserve the right to say “yeah, it’s scripture. so what? this part doesn’t mean much, can’t be put into practice, & is as inspired as those little plastic things that keep a twisted bread bag closed.

    still don’t know what holy means. i don’t think anyone really does. it just sounds good, & part of the lingo.

    (sort of like the deeper into christian culture a person gets the more prone they are to saying “one another” when referring to doing things with & for people.)

    it’s in the eye of the beholder, I think. i’ve observed the most obnoxious people sporting some kind of christiany personna described as ‘holy’.
    ———-

    Stavros & Pat’s comments
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    i guess upbringings can go either way. although i’d say personal responsibility and a good work ethic are more valuable than checking all the right christian behavior boxes.

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  60. Max,

    yeah, maybe.

    i can’t get over the fact that the kindest, most honest, responsible and uncompromising people of integrity I know are expressly not christians.

    something’s awry with Paul’s flowery-worded ideals & reality. not to say there isn’t truth in it. but maybe there’s a good bit of hyperbole going on.

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  66. Riley: Or they preach it like Lawson but don’t live it.

    One more hypocrite in the Dallas area exposed. And his elders posted a statement which deserves some scrutiny.
    “ ANNOUNCEMENT
    The elders at Trinity Bible Church of Dallas regretfully announce that effective immediately, Steven J. Lawson has been removed indefinitely from all ministry activities at Trinity Bible Church of Dallas. Several days ago, the elders at Trinity Bible Church of Dallas were informed by Steve Lawson of an inappropriate relationship that he has had with a woman. The elders have met with Steve and will continue to come alongside him and pray for him with the ultimate goal of his personal repentance. Steve will no longer be compensated by Trinity Bible Church of Dallas.
    In light of this, may we be reminded that we are ALL sinners, and Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners – and Christ remains Head of His Church, which is bigger than any fallen man. In fact, Jesus Christ will continue to lead His Church, including Trinity Bible Church here in Dallas, just like He has from the start of this work on January 5, 2018. Since that time, the elders have focused on the primacy of biblical exposition knit together by various men filling the pulpit each week. The Lord was building Trinity Bible Church of Dallas well before Steve became our Lead Preacher, and He will continue to build this church long after Steve Lawson, or any other man for that matter. We would ask for your prayers for the elders, for our Body, and for Steve and his family. Let us always be mindful of the words of 1 Corinthians 10:12, “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.”
    IMO this statement is satanic in many ways. What do Wartburgers think?

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  69. Satin,

    i reserve ‘satanic’ for things like ritual human sacrifice on an altar to satan. just to preserve its meaning.

    i think the statement was a rattled-off piece of nonthinking.
    .
    .
    -indefinitely means he could come back at any time in any capacity. i mean, if words mean anything.

    -inappropriate relationship is a .5 on the transparency scale, intended to keep people in the dark about the scandalous if not criminal nature of what happened.

    the irony is the attempt to hide & control the narrative means they’ve lost control – every honest person is now figuring it was something criminal.

    -Wny does he need to be prayed for, re: the ultimate goal of repentance? People define repentance in different ways, but it’s not rocket science, or like looking for some mysterious spiritual portal.

    Lawson is an adult and is fully capable of whatever steps are deemed repentance.

    -No, elders, don’t equate me or anyone else with Lawson. Most would never cheat on their marriage, deceive everyone who trusted them, and lie. Because it’s wrong.

    -Lawson is not a fallen man, as if he was as vulnerable victim of someone/something tripping him. No, he carefully and deliberately planned and orchestrated the hypocrisy and betrayal and the hiding of it and lying about it, all on purpose.

    -Fill the pulpit and build the church with women.

    -My prayer energy goes to Steve’s wife, not for Steve to learn remedial personal responsibility. He’s a grown up.

    -my No, elders, most of us have no problem standing straight and tall in our commitments to our relationships and doing what is right.

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  72. Satin: One more hypocrite in the Dallas area exposed … elders at Trinity Bible Church of Dallas were informed by Steve Lawson of an inappropriate relationship that he has had with a woman

    Whoa, it appears that “pastors” in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area are having a heck of a time keeping their pants on! There’s been an outbreak of “inappropriate relationships” there this year! As a leading voice in reformed theology, Mr. Lawson surely didn’t believe that such behavior was predestined!

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  73. elastigirl: i think the statement was a rattled-off piece of nonthinking.

    If not precisely diabolical, I’d say it was carefully crafted for the worldly or fleshy purposes of keeping the pewsitters sitting and nonthinking, and keeping the plates full. All the rest, you’re right on. And we shouldn’t forget a little prayer energy toward the clergy sex abuse victim, or more likely victims.

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  74. elastigirl: i reserve ‘satanic’ for things like ritual human sacrifice on an altar to satan. just to preserve its meaning.

    Then you don’t know your Christianese.
    ‘SAY-TANN-IC” includes playing D&D.
    (Veteran of the Satanic Panic here.)

    indefinitely means he could come back at any time in any capacity.

    I assure you the Spontaneous Standing Ovation is already being planned, complete with direct Visions and Prophecies from God and Angel Encounters at a gas station somewhere in Wyoming.

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  75. Max: it appears that “pastors” in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area are having a heck of a time

    And yet another DFW area pastor falls … Scott Crenshaw allegedly looked at “inappropriate materials”:

    https://julieroys.com/texas-church-fires-pastor-crenshaw-looking-inappropriate-materials/

    “Inappropriate” is not a word used in the New Testament for such behavior. The Bible calls it what it is … sin, transgression, iniquity, ungodly, etc. etc.

    Restore the “inappropriate” to the pulpit? Nah!

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  76. I guess 21st century “pastors” have too much time on their hands, so they drift into “inappropriate” world. Of course, they wouldn’t have extra time to get in trouble if they ministered as they ought: visit the sick in hospitals; visit the dying in nursing homes; call/visit members in their homes – get to know them, the kids names, the dog’s name; preach funerals rather than delegating to others; lead mission efforts to the poor and hurting in their communities; pray their guts out long and hard for a fresh word from the Lord instead of canned sermons; etc. etc. Hanging out with dudebros at the coffee shop, tweeting their lives away on their cell phones, multiple rounds of golf, or “inappropriate behavior” ain’t ministering in Jesus’ name!

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  82. I tried a couple replies which didn’t go through. Do appreciate the responses, and let me
    Point out one evil thing right in the beginning of the elder statement. They say they were “informed” by Lawson of the inappropriate relationship “he has had”. Numerous folks, including preachers, who’ve talked about this online have praised Lawson for confessing, as if he were praying one day and the Looord told him to be more careful about his coarse jesting with Mrs Brown, and to get counsel from the elders. They don’t say he confessed or repented, but give the impression he did. And undoubtedly he was forced to inform them because someone informed on him.

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  84. Ras al Ghul,

    This is why I joked awhile back about the tempter in charge of the DFW being fried by the demonic authorities, because they want the cabal to stay secret- not exposed to the light where they all have to scurry away like cockroaches.
    BTW, as evil as Lawson’s elders response has been, here’s Lawson’s own opinion (from his last sermon)
    “You should not judge a man by his one weak moment. You need to look at the whole body of his work. You need to look at his whole message. You need to look at his whole ministry and don’t judge him on one hiccup that happens.”

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  86. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
    I think that voyeurs and peepers have found that ‘churches’ (whatever the brand) are easy pickins’ for their ‘hobby’.
    Stuff that would not be tolerated in secular venues, hanging round’ the restrooms, enthusiastic volunteering for the ‘kids ministries’ with no vetting, make it easy for Pete the perv to thrive.

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  88. Satin: Finally I found a good article about Mr Lawson

    Thank you for the link, Satin. 🙂

    The post Satin linked to is titled Steve Lawson preached fire and brimstone except for himself, Baptist News Global, September 23, 2024. The post is an excellent analysis by Rick Pidcock.

    I’m including an Internet Archive link to the post (below), with a warning that some people might find the post triggering.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20240923193223/https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

    Steve Lawson and his theology are more twisted than the usual “bad boy” pastor written about on TWW….his “fire and brimstone” is not the average “tame” version of hell….and he wants to stand and watch.

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  92. Max,
    A disaster- some sort of moral catastrophe- fell upon us involving some preacher whose name I refuse to say. Ooops! Meanwhile Mr Johnson from Graceless to You tells us the guy was forced to confess by the “girl’s” (a woman in her twenties) father so it wasn’t a noble confession. And though “strong romantic overtones” were going on for 5 years, both parties assure us “no literal fornication was involved.” Who even talks this way?

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  93. Satin,
    Only a Satin can speculate what the strong romantic overtones were like:
    “I might be your professor, and could be your grandpa, but my wife doesn’t understand me like you do. When she kicks the bucket, which could be any day now, we can be married and I can know you in the biblical way. Until then it’d be wrong to do any literal fornication stuff, so we’ll have to do virtual fornication and have other unbiblical fun.”

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  95. Max: Preachers who preach the hardest about a particular sin are often found to be living it themselves (TWW has provided countless examples). It’s a form of pulpit cover-up intended to distract the pew.

    Or an attempt to self-medicate and self-treat their deep dark paraphilia in secret. Especially when (like Ted Haggard) that deep dark secret violates the Fundagelical culture’s strongest taboo. (And Fundys are completely obsessed with Pelvic Issues.)

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  97. Satin: “You should not judge a man by his one weak moment. You need to look at the whole body of his work. You need to look at his whole message. You need to look at his whole ministry and don’t judge him on one hiccup that happens.”

    You mean THIS “Whole Ministry”?
    https://web.archive.org/web/20240923193223/https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

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  99. researcher: https://web.archive.org/web/20240923193223/https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

    Steve Lawson and his theology are more twisted than the usual “bad boy” pastor written about on TWW….his “fire and brimstone” is not the average “tame” version of hell

    From the linked article:

    “Lawson likes to tell people that when they’re in hell, they’ll remember everything they once said and did. So now that he’s in a hell of his own making, as he quietly stands in front of his mirror, perhaps he can look into his own eyes and remember what he once told sinners in hell during one of his sermons. “You had your day. You had your time. You had your moment. And you squandered it.””

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  102. Max: The Great One speaks: “Pastoral Counsel from Albert Mohler on Steve Lawson’s Fall”

    Thank you for the link, Max. 🙂 As you said, the “Great One Speaks”….and in 12 plus minutes he said:

    ….and Al Mohler’s rambling “counsel” contained the usual Christianese “counsel”, the usual Christianese “I never saw this coming and I knew the fallen pastor well and it was a great ministry that fell”, the usual Christianese platitudes, the usual Christianese “we need to pray for”, etc.

    And the usual Christianese ignoring any mention of the victim(s).

    One difference is when Al Mohler brought up social media, it was more in the context of “Don’t get caught because everyone will know MUCH faster now….so don’t get caught.”

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  103. Sheenu,

    “emphasizing that simply urging individuals to “repent and stop” is insufficient without addressing underlying factors.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    to me, “repent” is like a magic word with magical expectations.

    as i see it, adherents of religions (such as christianity) view their holy book as a magic book.

    things that are biblical have magic powers.

    do the things described in the bible and they are like magic spells with power for desirable results.

    if Religious Adherent Party A (RAP-A) does something different from what Religious Adherent Party B (RAP-B) perceives as biblical, RAP-B views them as anywhere from shady to cosmic dangerous (CD).

    (For which there are biblical spells)

    it’s just like Harry Potter and the wizarding world.

    oh, there are so many ironies everywhere in this silly religion of mine. it’s just so flippin’ ______ (well, lots of choices, there)
    .
    .
    to make this simple and straightforward:

    -take 100% responsibility for your action

    -apologize in a responsible way (zero self-serving, hiding behind nothing) to all parties affected

    -make reparations / restitution

    -accept consequences
    .
    .
    seems to me a good many christian leaders omit most of these things when they bring out the ‘repentance’ card. it simply costs too much. as in power and money.

    so the word isn’t all that helpful.

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  105. researcher: ….and Al Mohler’s rambling “counsel” contained the usual Christianese “counsel”, the usual Christianese “I never saw this coming and I knew the fallen pastor well and it was a great ministry that fell”, the usual Christianese platitudes, the usual Christianese “we need to pray for”, etc.

    And the usual Christianese ignoring any mention of the victim(s).

    There is a reason I became allergic to Christianese.

    Has anybody done a “Just like ChatGPS, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” AI to write these Apostolic Pronouncements with one little prompt from your smartphone at Stzrbucks with the other Apostle Dudebros?

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  107. Samuel Conner: I have this uneasy sense that perhaps in fundamentalist circles, moral formation is about internalizing Biblical prohibitions and requirements. This is kind of a “procedural” and “external constraint” approach to the conscience, which (it seems to me) is troublingly similar to how conscience works in sociopaths (at least from what I recall of Martha Stout’s The Sociopath Next Door.

    I’ve heard this also freezes moral development at the toddler level: Avoid Punishment At All Costs.
    1) And when being Predestined Elect automatically means No Punishment, Ever?
    2) Or when you spot a loophole in the “procedural external constrainsts” and realize you can barrel your big-rig right through it like Douggie EESQUIRE, Got Hard, and Falwell Junior?

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