“Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.” ― The Cost of Discipleship.
Update 9/19/24: Today, I received word from the attorney of Pastor Macdonald, who claims that this post contains falsehoods and that he did not molest Melissa Hobson. I believe Melissa’s story and did not knowingly say anything false. I have asked for documentation.
Important information about adults attracted to children.
An adult male who is sexually attracted to a 12-year-old girl has a serious psychiatric problem. This desire is not normal. The person who is afflicted by such a desire needs to get immediate psychiatric intervention before this desire is acted upon and a crime is committed. There is no excuse for such behavior, even if the person was abused as a child. Repentance for this behavior does not mean the person will not offend again. It is a desire that is likely to last for a lifetime. Repeat: It is unlikely to go away. For educational purposes, here is one of many excellent resources from the NIH. The Neurobiology and Psychology of Pedophilia: Recent Advances and Challenges.
Do you think Cindy Cleminshire/Robert Morris story is rare? Then Melissa Hobson’s story will disabuse you of that notion. In Batavia, NY (near Rochester), which is approximately 1300 miles from Oklahoma, another 12-year-old girl was groomed and molested by an assistant pastor of a local church. Melissa Hobson’s story is eerily similar to Cindy’s saga, and I believe her.
BUT!!!
This molestation of a 12-year-old girl is a sin, a crime, and evidence of a serious psychiatric disorder and something more. I believe it is evidence of a group of pastors/overseers who wanted Melissa and her family to forgive and move along so their ministry plans wouldn’t be interrupted. They demanded cheap forgiveness, and that is unbiblical.
Setting the stage
In 1983, Melissa’s family moved from Olathe, KS, to Batavia, NY, where her father became the senior pastor of New Hope Ministries. The family soon became friends with Marty MacDonald and his family. MacDonald was a farmer and served in a volunteer leadership position in the church. MacDonald was eventually installed as the assistant pastor at New Hope Ministries.
Melissa’s grooming and abuse began when she was 12 years old.
Melissa was 12 years old when she started babysitting MacDonald’s two boys. She said
“I remember the first time I noticed something was off.” She was making lunch for the children. MacDonald, covered in dust, came home from working on the farm. He entered the door and stood in the open foyer, in plain view of Melissa in the kitchen. He said that he needed to remove his coveralls and proceeded to strip them off in front of her. He has on his white tee shirt and underpants. He then went to shower and emerged with a towel wrapped around his bottom.
(Dee’s digression: I have told many stories in which the potential abuser often appears, post-shower, in front of his chosen victim wrapped in a towel. It appears to be a grooming device.)
As time progressed, he went out of his way to be “so kind” to her. He would often hug her while affirming her, which boosted her self-esteem. During this time, the families became close. Once hired full-time, MacDonald spent much time interacting with the church’s child care center staff, where Melissa also worked. The families began to vacation together as well. Melissa lived next door to the church, so there was close contact between Melissa and MacDonald. When she babysat, he would always be the one to take her home. He began calling her his ‘little sister” and would frequently hug her.
The physical relationship continued to progress.
As time progressed, he would often be “coming out of the shower with a towel” whenever the wife was not home. He arranged to be with her more frequently while assisting with the remodel of her family’s home. He would offer to pick her up at school, where things would accelerate. By age 14, she felt she had a romantic relationship with him.
(Dee’s digression: It has been my experience that girls at this age often develop deep feelings for their abuser. Some have told me that they “loved” him. It is a dangerous manipulation of their developing emotions.)
Melissa’s sister remarked on MacDonald’s charismatic personality while making an important observation.
I remember staying with the MacDonald’s when my parents were out of town preaching. Melissa and I were sleeping together. I woke up to find MacDonald kneeling next to my sister in the bed.He told me that Melissa was sick and that she would be staying home from school. I recall being irritated because she stayed home sick a lot.Sometimes I even felt jealous of all the attention MacDonald paid to her.
(Dee’s digression: Molesters of kids can be very charming to their victims as well as their families. It is a part of the grooming process. Yes, they groom the family as well as the victim.)
On those drives home from babysitting, MacDonald was physical with her. He would put his hand on her thigh. Then, he began to pull off the road, and they would go “parking.” Melissa said she got so much validation from him that she wanted to spend time alone. This parking involved making out, petting, and him putting his hands in her pants and digitally penetrating her.
As she fell in love with him, he would warn her not to say anything about what they were doing. He said it would “destroy her parents’ ministry.” (Dee’s digression: Notice that he used her concern for her parents to keep her quiet.)
He also said they were “in this together,” which appears to be his way of trying to “share the blame.” He claimed that if something happened to his wife, he would “choose Melissa.”
If she had any interest in boys, he would criticize them for various things.
Things changed when she turned 18.
Melissa graduated and went to Mississippi for a 3-month internship in children’s ministry. During this time, she began to feel shame about the relationship. Her father offered her the children’s pastor position. She took the position and stopped any intimacy with MacDonald. She met and married her husband in 1992. MacDonald moved to Seattle in 1994. As he left, he said, “You don’t need me anymore.”
(Dee’s digression: He appears to be claiming he was “fulfilling her needs!’)
City Church started
\MacDonald returned to start City Church in Batavia in 1995 (9 months later.) It has been quite successful. MacDonald has become a “community leader” in Batavia. He serves on Genesee County’s Criminal Justice Advisory Council. His church provides services for electric cars.
he was one of the first businesses to install electric vehicle stations downtown. It’s the result of a partnership between the city of Batavia and National Grid.
…Pastor MacDonald just hopes in the meantime his charging stations will bring in travelers looking for a charge, so they can experience the city he loves so much.
“They can fill their cars up with electric while they’re eating, while they’re having coffee,” he said. “And hopefully, some of them will drop church on Sunday morning and participate in one of our services.”
In other words, he is well respected by the community.
Melissa begins to deal with her abuse but is told to “forgive” by overseers and influential pastors in the area.
She told her husband what happened and then talked to her parents in 2000. Her father asked his overseers, who told him there was no legal recourse and he should forgive him. These churches have overseers who will be called to help if various issues arise. They can also remove a pastor. Melissa spoke with Ron Domina of Bethel Church Rochester, an apostolic overseer of City Church. Domina allegedly refused to say he was an overseer but confronted him and asked him to apologize. MacDonald reportedly confessed to an affair but did not disclose her age or the length of the abuse and repented to his staff but did not tell them her age.
Domina set up a meeting with MacDonald and asked that Melissa, her husband, and her father attend to “forgive him.” However, Melissa and her husband bumped into MacDonald at a Christmas in the City event and confronted him. He refused to say that he molested her. Pastor Domina said he would not meet with them since she had already confronted him.
Melissa was accused of seducing MacDonald and did not receive help from the church’s overseers.
MacDonald’s son confronted Melissa’s husband and said that Melissa “seduced his father.” Her old friend, MacDonald’s secretary, told Melissa that she was promiscuous and seduced him. Others accused Melissa of “having an affair” with MacDonald. Melissa’s sister said:
We were often told that Melissa was old enough to know better and that she seduced him. Some would claim that she was 16 even though she was 12 when this started. He was extremely charming and flirtatious with all women.
When Melissa took a training course for potential foster parents, the issue of abuse of children came up, and grooming was discussed. It was during this time that she began to realize that she was molested. She said:
The reason why I didn’t tell anyone for so long was because he had me convinced that we had and affair. I always felt like I was to blame.
There was no help from their church associations or the law.
The family appealed to Tommy Reid for help. He was an overseer of their father’s church. Sadly, he claimed that Melissa’s father had a “forgiveness problem.” Her father reported that Reid also felt that her father should not be invited to a regular gathering of local pastors due to his lack of forgiveness.
Her father went to local law enforcement but was told nothing could be done since the report was beyond the statute of limitations.
Melissa said she eventually got a postcard from MacDonald and his wife, which said something like “We are sorry,” but it was vague, and she tossed it.
Recently, she heard the story of Cindy Cleminshire and Robert Morris. She consulted an attorney and is bravely sharing her story publicly.
Mario Maurillo cuts his evangelistic meeting short because a grievous sin in Batavia is not being dealt with.
Mario Maurillo is a traveling evangelist. Please listen to the video, starting at 2:54, as he lays bare the fact that a 12-year-old girl was molested and that the media is going to report on this unless they deal with it. Obviously, he was correct.
Today, I will be contacting the individuals involved for statements. We will go on from there.
Like Robert Morris, MacDonald’s City Church is tied to the ARC, the Association of Related Churches.
As many readers know, the ARC appears to have a history of fallen pastors, and it looks like one more will be added. They have also restored some. This is a screenshot from the ARC’s church directory.
Ryan is MacDonald’s son. Marty is the Senior Pastor.
Cheap grace and cheap forgiveness.
Melissa’s life has been changed forever. Starting at the age of 12, she was groomed and molested for six years. Marty MacDonald is a senior pastor and a respected member of the Batavia community. He appears successful. But he is hiding something which must be owned and confessed. Unless it is, the church community is extending cheap grace to him.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote the enduring and convicting The Cost of Discipleship. He is known for defining cheap and costly grace.
Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
It is wrong to demand forgiveness until a man owns the depth and breadth of his sin. “I’m sorry” is not repentance. Repentance is prolonged sorrow, so profound and noticeable that it is sensed by the abused and the community surrounding the wounded. Forgiveness is never demanded, and it is rarely immediate. It is a process. The abuser must seek to repair the damage in any way possible. Anything less is like the little child told to say he is sorry for stealing the cookie. His quick “I’m sorry” said with a mouthful of his treat is childish. Yet it appears some pastors are demanding such cheap forgiveness. They tie it into cheap grace and pretend all is well. Grace is costly. As Bonhoeffer said:
Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us.
I implore the abuser and those who surround him to pursue true repentance, which will be evident to all by the depths of sorrow while doing the work to earn forgiveness.
As always, I do not believe that anyone who molests a kid belongs in the pulpit.
Dee – Thank you for sharing this horrific story – again – and again – and again. May the truth about grooming, abuse of power and spiritual authority begin to seep into the fabric of our soiled church system.
Grace(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Melissa is so brave! Please tell her how much we admire her.
I have to wonder–how many other victims are there? Sigh.
Sheila Gregoire(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“Her father went to local law enforcement but was told nothing could be done since the report was beyond the statute of limitations.”
As I’ve said often on TWW, there should be no statute of limitations on child sexual abuse in any State! Additionally, there should be no time limit set on disqualifying an abusive pastor from Christian ministry … this is a permanently disqualifying offense. And, while we are at it, church elders/deacons who defend and protect a child-abusing pastor should be held accountable for their role in the crime, by both Church and State … they, too, should be permanently disqualified from holding a church leadership position anywhere on the planet.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Given the frequency of such reports, I have to wonder if some men “go into the ministry” with this objective … wolves in shepherd’s clothing who take advantage of the trust of their flock and betray their sacred office.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I feel like I’ve just been hit in the face with a cold pail of Truth! This would have been totally unnecessary had there been a Godly sorrow that would have worked repentance never to be repented of again(see 2 Corinthians). But alas that was not the case. May this serve as a stern warning sign and reminder to dissuade anyone,ministry or other wise to RUN in terror from such a thought as child molestation. Like drug and alcohol addiction there is help available to anyone who ,and I emphasize “wants” help with this demonic urge. May God restore the heart of Melissa totally and Grant mercy and restoration to the molester if he wants it. At this point this is what the Bible calls Justice, not vengeance but justice. Thank you brother Mario for standing up and doing something that took a lot of courage and a tremendous amount of love for both God and the body of Christ. For the sake of Christ and His name may God bring something out of this that will bring glory to him and this by his sovereignty. Brother Tommy.
Thomas Holohan(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The tactics of the abusers are the exact same across the board, whether it be Cindy Clemishire, Melissa and untold others. Until the church stops hiding these men, and reporting as they are mandated by law, and these pedophiles are legally sentenced to prison where they belong, then and only then will some measure of justice be found. Thank you, Dee for once again exposing and bringing to light these deviant “men of god.”
Justice for Cindy Clemishire(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
In the Midwest, we have an expression: “That boy is either going to prison or into the ministry.” It describes a fast-talking kid who can weasel out of trouble and come out smelling like a rose.
I commend Melissa Hobson for the courage to talk publicly about her experience. That courage is the only way change will happen. Although, as we often see, social change happens slowly, often measured in generations.
dfarning(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you, Ms.Hobson, for your bravery.
My family insists that I should join them in praying my long-dead predator out of purgatory and into Heaven.
Timothy Trahan(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Melissa, I believe you 100% I hope you are surrounded by others who say the same and you find healing. Wow, these stories! And Mario! He truly heard from the Lord. So so so very glad God seems to be cleaning house and 2 Samuel 12:12 – they think they are like King David, well his sins were trotted out into the light. So in a way, I guess they are like him. Now do the repentance part.
JJallday(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“The family appealed to Tommy Reid for help. He was an overseer of their father’s church. Sadly, he claimed that Melissa’s father had a “forgiveness problem.” Her father reported that Reid also felt that her father should not be invited to a regular gathering of local pastors due to his lack of forgiveness.”
Based on Tommy Reid’s list of questionable characters he called friends I wouldn’t expect any type of help from him unless you were a major donor.
“Tommy befriended many evangelists during his time as senior leader of the Full Gospel Tabernacle, including Paula White, Paul Crouch, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Jack Hayford and Benny Hinn. Hinn used to minister monthly at the Tabernacle.”
-Wikipedia
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Oh yeah … there’s a bunch of those characters in the American church! Some get to fulfill both destinies … in the church house and the jail house!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thomas Holohan,
“May God restore the heart of Melissa totally and Grant mercy and restoration to the molester if he wants it.”
+++++++++++
i appreciated your comment.
what do you see as restoration? is it different from things like repentance, forgiveness, restitution, consequences…?
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
After Sovereign Grace I thought I’d seen it all. How wrong I was.
Daryl Linkous(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I guess this is one reason I like being a Protestant. In our beliefs, your long time predator would go directly to hell. I do not believe that anyone who molests a child throughout their lives is in any form a Christian.
Besides, even if there was a purgatory, your abuser wouldn’t repent. So, I will believe for you that your abuser is facing the consequences of his life here on earth. I am so terribly sorry for the pain you endured.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I just had a brillant idea.
I think Chris Hodges who is the “Pope” of the ARC which is in residence at Chruch of the Highlands, need to be alerted about MacDonald who is the senior pastor of the City Church which is a member of the ARC. I plan to alert him about macDonald. They made Robert Morris step down. This guy is as bad or maybe even worse. I may do this in the folrm of a post on Monday which shall be directed to the dudebros in charge of that interesting organization. They sure do have them some “fallen pastors,” don’t they?
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Fallen pastors my a$$, these guys are just common criminals.
I hope to God that more folks in these kinds of ‘churches’ will go to the cops IMMEDIATELY when their kids get molested by these pieces of you know what.
Muff Potter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The church has her own Jeffrey Epstein, more than one, actually. Each one has his own island … his own local parish. They like girls. Other people’s daughters. Like Epstein and his island.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thanks Dee. As a mental health clinician this story resonates with so many survivors. They are referred to my service due to their complex PTSD and other mental health issues. Many were not believed. Often their GP and I are the first to hear and believe them. I try to provide a safe place where they know they are believed. I hope Melissa finds a safe place where she is believed, supported and accepted.
Grahame Gee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
How evil do you have to be to accuse a 12yo of “seducing” an adult, who definitely should
a) know better
b) not be attracted to 12yo
c) know the law (even if attracted to 12yo)
d) know to get help (if attracted to 12yo)
The “churches” circling the wagons around those perps – what shall we call them?
Even if their first reaction is “No, this can’t be true, pastor M. would never do such a thing!”, they should know that only the police can get to the bottom of this, and if true, it absolutely *is* a police matter.
Gus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Epstein, Morris, MacDonald … and more.
The Epstein Island of Little Saint James, Morris with James Robison Evangelistic Association + Gateway Church, MacDonald at New Hope Ministries + City Church …
It takes a village to provide cover for a major monster predator in Polite Society, be it Polite Evangelical Church Society or Pompous Pretentious Philanthropic High Society.
The monster pedophile predator grooms his people to cover his predation of children, of young girls, in these cases.
With Sandusky at Penn State + The Second Mile nonprofit, it was young boys that the monster predator was after.
Sandusky has partner Dottie blowing him kisses in the Courtroom, Epstein had pal Ghislaine Maxwell gathering up girls 3x a day and giving TEDtalks, Morris has partner Debbie as camouflage, MacDonald has partner Patti to appear to be a Family Guy…
They all, Epstein and Morris and MacDonald and Sandusky, have their boards and supporters that circle the wagons providing for the predator when exposed.
It takes a village to supply victims and provide cover for a predatory monster that consumes children.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Apparently our interesting organizations harbor criminal predators.
This particular group of predators would be adults targeting 12yo girls and boys, for criminal victimization during the children’s ages of 12-17 years.
These adult predatory men target 12yo girls or boys or both.
These adult predatory women target 12yo boys or girls or both.
The kids are covertly targeted within these “interesting organizations” with purpose by these predatory monsters.
1. Expose the predators.
2. Listen to and validate the victims’ testimonies. Victims are evidence.
3. Provide safety for victims.
4. Eliminate the predators’ access to victims, vulnerables.
5. Report to and work with LE in dealing with these criminals.
6. Work with the DOJ in dealing with these criminals.
7. Publicize the criminal activity, identifying the criminals by name
Maintain a database of public record of the criminals histories, for the safety of all.
Of public record: Epstein, Sandusky, Morris, MacDonald, and more.
There are other types of predators with different targets. The above group uniquely targets 12yo girls and boys, for the child’s years of 12-17 years.
Thank God for the Internet. They can move around, circulate, and run. But they cannot hide.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Of course, this is way beyond church ministry.
The predators of 12yo’s simply find their target market, nuzzle up to their supporting colleague leaders, and groom their supporting community, and then build their network in a scheme of evil.
Each male predator in these cases has
1. A female partner for camou
2. A number of bro-boy colleagues providing cover
3. A board for legitimacy & a public profile
4. A following in the public, for financial support, PR, social media support, and legal argument.
Great evil needs a grand scheme.
For each player (i.e. Epstein, Sandusky, Morris, and MacDonald), there is a whole network to bring to light: from Ghislaine Maxwell to the dirty LE that let Epstein off repeatedly in Florida.
The situation with the Archdiocese in Boston and the violation of children there, similarly had LE in the pockets of the institution that covered for its predatory priests.
Predators build networks so they can freely target (vulnerable) individuals.
As each predator is exposed, his or her network likewise needs to be exposed. The network is complicit.
The Third Reich was a community effort.
It takes a complicit village to violate a child.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ava Aaronson,
“Great evil needs a grand scheme”
YES. Thank you for this important post about how and why predators groom everyone in order to do evil.
We see this played out over and over. Morris, Don Logan, Hybels, Ravi Zacharias, Bruce Konold, Chris Reed, and hundreds of other names that fly under the media radar.
Grace(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you for sharing and for caring for the survivors.
Susan(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
re: cheap grace,
It’s as if the events recorded in the Old Testament, which per Paul have instructional value for us, never happened. David was not severely punished, for the rest of his life, for his transgressions in the matter of Uriah and Bathsheba. Israel and Judah were not sent into exile for their transgressions. An entire generation of Israelites did not perish in the wilderness because of their idolatry.
It’s as if modern believers don’t need to heed the OT call to pursue wisdom above all else, beginning with fear of YHWH. It’s as if they think that, like the proverbial fool, “God does not see”. It’s as if it is not true that, as Paul says, what a man sows, that also he will reap.
These people are, functionally, atheists. Why are they tolerated in pulpits?
Samuel Conner(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
No doubt about it. In such churches, the ministry of Jesus does not truly exist; they are dark, evil places at the core with evil church leaders who will someday slip into darkness for eternity. There is no fear of God among “pastors” who molest children, nor “elders” who cover for them.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
The American church needs to get over its blind trust of church leaders. The title “Pastor” has been too often used for Satan to slip in the backdoor. John challenged believers “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Yet, the pew does not heed that warning.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Gus,
Exactly….. like so often the case, the cover-up, attempt at cover-up, rivals original offense..
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Dee notes a shower/towel around private parts as a common report w/r to pedos…. Jerry Sandusky was “known” for showering with boys… and claiming part of “sports culture “..
That made me “sick”…. And others “covered” for this….
Disgusting..
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Apparently, there are some in Christendom who dismiss and cover the abuses we are seeing as part of “church culture” … it’s a spiritual sickness.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Grahame Gee,
Thankful for your work!
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“The family appealed to Tommy Reid for help. He was an overseer of their father’s church. Sadly, he claimed that Melissa’s father had a “forgiveness problem.” Her father reported that Reid also felt that her father should not be invited to a regular gathering of local pastors due to his lack of forgiveness.”
================================
Not surprisingly, Tommy Reid is a guest speaker at The City Church (Pastored by Marty MacDonald and his son, Ryan MacDonald) on September 19th.
In my opinion, this guy is another wolf. He spent his early years in South Korea and the Philippines, which raises my suspicions.
===============================
“Tommy started full-time ministry in 1953, and travelled with his father across the world to Seoul in South Korea. There, he assisted pastor Paul Cho at the Yoido Full Gospel Church.
Ministry in the Philippines
After his success in Seoul, in 1959, at the age of 26, Reid was named the senior pastor and leader of the Cathedral of Praise, then the Bethel Temple of Manila, the largest pentecostal church in the world.”
-Wickipedia
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
PASTOR Martin MacDonald.
Rank Hath Its Privileges and Touch Not Mine Anointed.
No different from a Muslim gang who gang-rapes a woman or girl because she showed a flash of an ankle under her burqa, then praise God as they cut her throat for being such a whore.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ehebephilia.
Going after those who are past Puberty but still legally underage.
“I keep getting older (and older)… They stay the same age.”
— Ehebephile character ogling high-school girls in a random short movie clip on YouTube.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jesus is mentioned only as a Celebrity Endorsement, nothing more.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
And didn’t “Jack the Whipper” Smyth (whose target profile was same-sex + underage) head a Christian organization against HOMOSEXUALITY?
(And because Jack the Whipper never actually ejaculated when whipping boys – only reaching “The Goon State”, it wasn’t REALLY Sexual — “LOOPHOLE! LOOPHOLE!”)
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Have you ever heard of the (EO?) idea that Purgatory and Hell are the same place?
If you’re able to grow out of it, it WAS Purgatory.
If you never grow out of it, it IS Hell.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Where Easy Prey congregate, the Predators will swarm.
And Christians are so easy a Prey that the swarm becomes a Feeding Frenzy.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
(ed) DO YOU THINK THAT RABBI FROM TARSUS WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE SAID “SATAN HIMSELF CAN TRANSFORM HIMSELF TO APPEAR AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT”? SOME DEEP SPIRITUAL SCRIPTURE(TM)?
And not just the family as well as the victim. The Authorities over them who could present a problem as well as the family and the victim. Always nice to have Friends in High Places, eh, Jim-Bob Duggar and Doctor Facilier?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As the mom of a child who was horribly abused before being placed with us, and suffered a different form of abuse from the leadership of our church, well, I best keep my mouth shut or else lose my witness.
I think of my east Tennessee distant background folks who were Primitive Baptist Universalists, and while they would have denied a purgatory to follow (I believe there is one) and denied eternal conscious torment (I agree there) they would have figured the perp here would suffer a lifetime of mental and spiritual torture and I must confess, I have say “I sure hope so.” No matter what happens among humans, I do believe God is not just a God of mercy but also of justice.
And off topic, prayers please! Got the new covid jab and my flu jab, so late this week I am off to see the primary care physician. My hope is that my ear infection has not resolved and needs meds again, or the tonsil is infected, or that my eustachian tube is just being dysfunctional again due to a new bout of LPR. The ear is opening up some, but a fair amount of pain and pressure behind it near the mastoid bone. Mastoiditis does plague my family, so hoping it is not that and if it is that it is easily taken care of. With LPR you always fear throat cancer every time they take a peak back there. On the upside, yay found a new allergy med that works at half dose, makes me absolutely squirrely on full dose.
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The premise of “The Great Divorce”.
Cynthia W.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Melissa I am so sorry for your years of abuse, both from the Macdonald and from the “leaders” who should have spent their time and energy helping and protecting you and your family. I think we’ve all learned it’s that protection that allows men like your abuser to feel they can act so freely and simply be forgiven. I hope you are surrounded by love and support and whatever direction you path you are on brings you joy and peace.
I am new here, and I apologize if this is an inappropriate post. I was raised in the SBC and then PCA. I fled as soon as I was able. I am a survivor. I no longer believe in god and I will never set foot in a church again. Though it is something I try never to discuss, it is a source of an enormous amount of conflict in my family, who do not know or understand why. I cannot speak for others, but I want to be as clear as I can be–I do not feel the way I do because of what I survived. I feel this way because of the enablers and those who stand with them. It feels like hardly a week goes by when I don’t see another story about a leader who “confessed” his sins, received an ovation from the congregation, and his victim was left ostracized and struggling. The cruelty of it always knocks me down for a few days. Over the years my brain has separated itself into two camps: my abuse and abuser, and those I see everyday excusing men just like him. I cannot explain why, but I have far more disgust with the later.
Dee thank you for what you do. Though my brain knows it’s not fair, these days it feels the world is far safer in the hands of people who follow the Golden Rule w/o knowing its origins than those who do. It’s nice to be able to prove it wrong.
CJ(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Praying for you, linda. 🙂
researcher(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Prayed for you just now, Linda
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Daryl Linkous,
You and me both. Todd and I talked about this one day. I told him if I knew how bad it was, I might not have started.He was of the same opinion. God eased me into it.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Always succinct and to the point!! 🙂
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thanks for the prayers! Likely tempest in a teapot but prayers surely appreciated!
linda(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I think I should do a PSA “If a creepy guy does x, he is grooming you. Run.”
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Well said.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Grahame Gee,
Thank you. What area the country to you practice? I would love to keep you in mind if a victim is in your area.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I would guess that 85% of the victims that I’ve encountered feel the same way. It is never inappropriate to speak your truth. And I am so sorry for the pain your have experienced.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I believe that a fair number of them are abusers. If they abuse children or support their friends who abuse children, I believe that they may not be Christian in the true sense of the word. They have found a place to carry out their decidedly unchristian activities.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Too many churchgoers mistakenly believe that anyone called “Pastor” is a Christian. Too many church members blindly trust church leaders. Too many pewsitters accept the pulpit as the real deal. It’s the perfect set-up for a wolf in shepherd’s clothing.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
CJ,
“Over the years my brain has separated itself into two camps: my abuse and abuser, and those I see everyday excusing men just like him. I cannot explain why, but I have far more disgust with the later.”
++++++++++++++++++
perhaps it’s because these people wear a God hat, purport to speak for God, are awarded with trust, and they all they are capable of dripping pat answers like drool.
——–
“…these days it feels the world is far safer in the hands of people who follow the Golden Rule w/o knowing its origins than those who do.”
+++++++++++++++
i actually did some checking, and it seems the earliest written version of the Golden Rule dates back to 2040 BCE in an Egyptian story.
it next pops up in 50 BCE, ascribed to Confucius.
Then in 30 CE in the book of Matthew in the New Testament.
as i see it, it is part of what it means for human beings to be ‘made in God’s image’, and is thus a universal truth understood by human beings as long as they’ve been around.
religion messes everything up, including christianity (I think Jesus was a bit sarcastic, dishing out a well-deserved double portion even now).
indeed, people other than christians seem to do better following the golden rule with sincerity, honesty, and integrity.
elastigirl(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
With respect to OP…. I am intrigued by the video clip of the traveling evangelist.. any more info on this specific clip?
Jeffrey Chalmers(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve got to remember this quote. It’s brilliant.
EW66(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Excellent idea.
Another PSA, “If a charming guy does x, he grooming your church congregation, board, elders, and overseers.”
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Praying.
Ava Aaronson(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Don’t overlook female predators.
Grumpy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Jeffrey Chalmers,
It’s about time these sins/crimes and their cover-up are called out from the pulpit!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Well here’s what I think about it over my Monday morning coffee … there’s a plague on the land of pervert pastors!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Pervert Pastor Plague … coming to a church near you!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Paul rebukes those in the church who protect abusers because they are popular, prominent, sure can preach, etc. In the account of the god-awful sinner in 1 Corinthians 5, Matthew Henry commented this way:
“He might be a man of great eloquence … and for this reason very greatly esteemed, and followed, and cried up, by many among them. They were proud that they had such a leader. Instead of mourning for his fall, and their own reproach upon his account, and renouncing him and removing him from the society, they continued to applaud him and pride themselves in him … Those of the Corinthians that were admirers of the (sinful) person’s gifts could overlook or extenuate his horrid practices.” (Matthew Henry)
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“I implore the abuser and those who surround him to pursue true repentance” (Dee)
As Matthew Henry said in his commentary about the abuser in 1 Corinthians 5, there are those in church who “extenuate his horrid practices.” Yep, hard to believe but there are churchmen who will excuse and protect bad-boy preachers, causing the offense to seem less serious … “boys will be boys”, “I know he’s been a bit naughty, but he sure can preach”, etc. You ask that bunch to repent and they will shout back “Repent of what?!”
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Not a drag queen in site on this one. Big Surprise – NOT.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Levitical punishment would be appropriate.
senecagriggs(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
How can you “repent” when You Can Do No Wrong?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I didn’t see any Trans(TM), either.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
You left out his time at Shady Grove Church.
Pastor Olen Griffin provided the cover at Shady Grove Church for Robert Morris to continue with future abuse, while publicly becoming the man who could launch Gateway Church and profit financially from it.
Andy Prior(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
True. I think the biggest and loudest “Christian” leaders, pastors, etc. who say the LBGTs are grooming kids are in fact projecting and deflecting from the fact that the biggest perverts and groomers are in the Church. A Rabbi from Tarsus mentioned something about that in one of his letters to Christians in Corinth.
Ras al Ghul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
There’s sexual sin all around us. Trafficking in every town and city. More than Half the men are in secret dealing with this sin of sexual immortality!in the church outside of it all around.Biggest issue of our time that gets sweeped under the rug with men. No one wants to be labeled the pervert so it never gets confronted. Hate the sin not the man. This is going on today still not just 40 years ago. This is all around us everyday and condemning the man won’t fix it but further the issue. We need compassion, we need safe places to discuss these secrets or it will never be corrected. Paul was a murderer of believers! and God used him as a mighty vessel regardless! There’s always hope for restoration with God, nothing is impossible.
Spiritual pride is the problem(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“A thing that has no name, even among the Goyim”?
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“One Hand Washes the Other…”
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I thought you might like to hear about my understanding of child sexual assault in regards to your thoughtful comment.
Paul killed believers prior to becoming a church leader, not afterwards. If he had done so after his conversion, he would not have become an apostle. Anyone who misuses the life of a believeer in the practice of his/ her office in the church beomes disqualified to hold that office. God can still use them in other ways but they have turned in their pastor credentials. MacDonald must step down.
In this instance, it is sexual sin but it is more. It is a crime which means the person must confess to the law and receive prison time in many instances. That did not happen here. It was concealed from the police. This must never be forgotten. And the law condemsn him. He should have been sentenced in a court.
Finally, restoration means being restored to fellowship in the church, not to the pulpit. If the church functions correctly, he would be told that he must deal with the sin, the law and the disorder. If he does not, he should be put out of the church. If he then repented, meaningfully, he could begin to be incorporated into the Body. If he continued on that path, he should be allowed to take communion. At that point he would be RESTORED to the Body, not the pulpit. Read those words very carefully.
He must never, ever be behind the pulpit as a pastor. again.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I get tired of church folks who diminish sex abuse of children as “moral failure” … darn it! … it’s not only a god-awful sin of the worst kind, but a criminal act!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Another truth that most church folks don’t get! I don’t care how well a bad-boy preacher can preach, how popular he is, how handsome he is, or how much money he brings in for the church. Don’t attempt to restore the unrestorable! Forgive them if they genuinely repent? Certainly! Restore them to the pulpit? Absolutely not!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Watch this clip from a video interview by Renee Rico of Pastor Paul Doyle of Cornerstone Church, Batavia NY regarding the abuse and coverup of Melissa.
https://x.com/ThouArtTheMan/status/1836443565834359023
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Todd Wilhelm,
Another bad case of DARVO by church leaders on top of everything else. When will this madness end?!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
dee,
I used to attend there until I was asked to stop coming because I was going through a divorce.
This guy answers to no one and gets very aggressive when asked about the churches finances. His son Ryan is someone who I watched grow up. Acorn/tree for poor character. Ryan is a literal slum lord of Batavia.
They hold people captive for their own profit. If you don’t play along and keep your opinion silent you are pushed aside.
They are wrapped up with a gentleman named Mike Ognibene. He is a shady car dealer. Lost his Ford dealership for some reason that was covered up. He put 2 of the MacRonald boys into the car and rental property industry.
It is a deep deep gang they have that does a good job of covering each other….
Paul(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I support you 100%, Stay strong and let God do the work! I have a similar situation although not the Pastor or any member but we have no support from the church we were at, at the time. We have recently left there. I cant even get legal counsel. I’m praying for you Melissa. Never be ashamed of telling the truth. What is done is darkness will come to the light and this is your time to truly heal. God will see you through. I’m glad you have people to support your truth. God bless you and keep seeking His Grace.
Lynn(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Gus,
Absolute fact! No 12yr old child can seduce a grown man! How disgusting to put the blame on an innocent child!I never had a good feeling about marty didn’t trust him didn’t like him. Now I know why…my instincts were spot on. Some more digging should go into the way he aquires properties too! In my opinion he’s a low life scum child molester! Keep your children safe especially your young daughters, keep them away from marty mcdonald!!! Heed this warning, read this article in it’s entirety.
M.White(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I feel sick to my stomach after reading this I been going to city church for 12 years.I will no longer support city church anymore.melissa you are so brave to share your story and I believe God will make this right
Becky(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I tried to submit a comment but not sure if it went through. I worked at this church beginning in high school as an intern through Genesee County BOCES(Batavia). I was hired on in 2018 out of high school and worked there until 2020. They invited more high school students to come intern as well. I grew concerned when I found paperwork that they were allowing convicted child sex offenders do community service/volunteer work here at the same times of day the students were attending for their internship. This made me uncomfortable as we had details that were disturbing- the on that stuck in my mind and made me feel ill was when I found out a man who was convicted of SAing a 6 year old child was working in the building with us. I had an uneasy vibe and some other odd experiences. I’m sorry to the victim(s) and their families.
anon, but they’ll know.(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Four comments by Gillian B not approved:
Gillian,
You must comment on the post. Your comments made absolutely no sense to me. Be specific. If there are falsehoods, you must spell those out and tell me why those statements in the post are false.
Be fair.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
New commenters:
All new commenters’ comments will be held until approved. If folks are being fair and abiding by the rules for commenting, your comment will be approved when I get around to it. I do sleep at night, so new commenters will not be approved until morning.
Please comment about the post. I am aware of the Batavian post. If you must comment on that, tie it into my post on the blog.
This comment is for my friends in Rochester. This post reflects Melissa’s story in its entirety. I believe her story, and I told this story to support a woman who has lived with this for decades. Like many survivors of abuse, it took her that long to come forward.
Thank you to all who have come forward to support Melissa’s story. Your kindness is appreciated. We who saw the #MeToo movement formed a new hashtag: the #ChurchToo movement. Churches must become the places they claim to be. Sexual abuse has no place in the church.
Everything I have written in this post is according to a gold standard. I believed Melissa and told the truth as I thought it to be. I told the truth to care for all who molesters have harmed.
Please join me in praying that Melissa will finally see that she is believed by many.
#ChurchToo #IbelieveMelissa
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Update for those concerned with rental management: There is a well-known and respected individual who investigates financial/housing practices of pastors in the evangelical church. We would be happy to forward such concerns to him. We are not in a position to investigate this ourselves since we focus on abuse in the church. Please send us a list of cooncerns and any records/photos/narratives of those affected. We will then send on your concerns and notify you then of the name of the individual.
Please do not discuss folks who own slums. It sounds terrible, but this is not the place for it. Stick to the information in the post.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Hi Paul, I was told that Samantha Macdonald, Ryan’s wife, is related to Mike Ognibene. Do you know what their relationship is?
Thanks.
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
“IN FIRE.” — Vorlon Ambassador Kosh, Babylon-5
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Whether that money is $$$$$ or the currency of Heaven, “SAVED Souls”.
Noe: SOULS(TM), not people.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Every time I hear the words “(Unspecified) MOral Failure(TM)”, I automatically respond “With a live boy or a dead woman?”
“(Unspecified) Moral Failure” sounds SO Pious, SO innocent, SO Innocuous, SO Newspeak.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
My prayer is that Melissa’s voice is finally heard and not shut down! Her story has never altered and I have known it for many years. I totally believe everything that she has said and support her in love and prayer.
AuntD(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Todd Wilhelm,
She is Mike Ognibene’s daughter.
Anonymous(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
As a City Official for the City of Batavia. I have multiple concerns with this Church’s pastors rental practices in the City of Batavia. Can you please have your expert reach out to me? Prayers of healing and support to Melissa.
Concerned City Official(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ed. Note: This comment, while heart wrenching, was problematic as written. I have edited out a section that does not meet our guidelines. If you disagree with my editing, I will have to delete the entire comment. I am so sorry.
I am also a victim of McDonald. It’s interesting that you heard from McDonald’s attorney. I’m quite sure he knows who I am and he also knows I have a private investigators report that I paid for Don’t be intimidated by BAR members. Expose the evil! Ephesians 5:11
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Whew, these folks have quite a Jesus racket going on in Batavia! There is no greater corruption on planet earth than religious corruption. God hates it!
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Update for folks:
There have been developments in Melissa’s situation, both very positive and possibly negative. Isn’t that like life? We will update you all on the situation when we feel it is timely. Dee is optimistic.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Could you please give me a short overview of the issue at this email address: dee@thewartburgwatch.com? I promise strict confidentiality, and my 15 years of doing this are a testament to my tight lips. I will then send this off to the expert on these matters. After I receive your email, I will also tell you the name of the expert so you know to whom it is being sent.
dee(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Ed note: TWW does not know you and akkegations of police wanting to kill you are concerning. I suggest readers go to this man’s website and make your own decisions.
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller,
I’m not sure what the issue is. It’s your website and do as you believe necessary. Most of the residents in Batavia have heard my name or know me. The private investigator report was made nearly 20 years ago and includes the pastor of New Hope church and his allegations of his daughter being raped by McDonald. This is the same “Pastor McDonald” that abetted my Illegal Alien perp/marriage scammer in her defrauding me and her hand in having a City of Batavia NY Cop threaten to kill me. It’s all documented including documents proving everything I am posting here. My website has been up for nearly as long, Corruptgenesee.com
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I know nothing of the rental issues. I haven’t lived in Batavia since 2006. I was CHASED OUT of the U.S Corruptgenesee.com
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Todd Wilhelm,
I knew him at both Living Waters Church and later at City Church. All I know is he had some legal issues at his Ford dealership some years back.
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I’ve read enough as reported in this piece, links provided, and in the comments … to discern that there is a thick darkness hovering over the religious community in Batavia, NY. Pastor Murillo nailed it.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Thank you!
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller,
Thanks Dr. Waldmiller.
Todd Wilhelm(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Journalist also doesn’t pick and choose opinions are posted
Anonymus(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Oh, well, only Catholic Priests do this???? As you can see, not true! God have mercy on his soul.
Connie Porter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller,
Rev. Dr. Paul P. Waldmiller,
Can you provide the report that you mention? In an official statement the legal representative for macdonald denies the allegations and states that the plaintiff had “plenty of time” to bring these to light. This report would prpve that Melissa has been trying to do that for years and finally had to come forward publicly.
Wolf hunter(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I followed the link to this guy’s website. I am not sure of his credibility; something about his site’s formatting and content style gives me the vibe of a kook rant.
Could be noise in the channel or could be a legit lead just badly expressed.
See if he sends you his documentation, and check out his sources.
Headless Unicorn Guy(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Rev. Dr. Paul Waldmiller(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
I have the private investigator’s report and will not release it because it will be used for future litigation as evidence against my Illegal Alien perp as well as against the 2 judges and also lawyers who sent the City of Batavia, NY Cop to threaten my life, plus others.
As to inviting others to view my website, Corruptgenesee.com, anyone is free to view it. It’s been up and available for years, now. Like I previously shared with you & others here, plenty of evidence placed there. Simple research bears that out. I’m not so sure what your hesitancy is to look at the website. If you don’t want to do the work, that’s fine. Those that know me, know that I am bluntly honest. Also, as well mentioned earlier in another comment above, many in Batavia NY know me personally, or know my name. I was a Credentialed therapist employed at GCASA in Batavia and the point-person who established all the alternative to incarceration programs (ie. Drug courts, DWI courts, DV Courts, etc) in Genesee, Orleans, Wyoming & Livingston Counties. The BAR Associations within NYS also know me & my story. I am the reason Judge Noonan retired soon after he & Judge Tracey Bannister lost their criminal case against me, where I once again exposed their support for my Illegal Alien perpetrator all to steal Federal tax dollars. Again, everything is located at Corruptgenesee.com
Rev. Dr. Paul Waldmiller(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Pingback: City Church founder, denies abusing teenager 40 years ago | Church & Ministries
Just one more example that organized religion is corruptible, perverse, and wicked. The notion that anyone, (let alone the father of a young child – Pastor Harlan Hobson) abused by another person (especially an adult – Pastor Marty McDonald) should forgive that unpardonable crime is corrupt in it’s notion.
God may forgive, but a father or mother… never.
The suggestion “by clergy” that the perpetrator of the crime (in the events of Melissa), Pastor McDonald deserves pardon and forgiveness, shows the ludicrousness and depravity of organized religion.
Brian Graz(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Am I the only member of the community concerned by watching this get swept under the rug (again) in real time? Deny and dissappear is the only thing we have seen Macdonald do. His son Ryan seems to be capitalizing on this by telling the congregation on Sunday that this is a “sowing season” because “anyone can give when things are easy.”
What can other concerned citizens do?
A Concerned Citizen(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Manipulation, intimidation and domination are the tools of such pulpits.
Max(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)
Pastor Paul Doyle addresses the issue in this 15 minute video. MacDonald’s lawyer sent him a cease and desist letter. It’s not stopping Paul from speaking out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT7hGKOf11M
Lois(Reply & quote selected text) (Reply to this comment)