Do Complementarian Men Protect Women or Themselves? They Need the Women to Teach Them.

Posted on by September 9, 2024avatar

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“There are three ways to ultimate success: The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind.” —Fred Rogers, American television personality and candidate for sainthood

Today, I have my new computer up and running. I hope this will take care of the frustrations I had with the old one. Years flew by, and I suddenly realized that my old computer was over four years old. I am a heavy user. Special thanks to the “Guy Behind the Curtain,” who worked hard to make things run smoothly.

I plan to tell a story of abuse that sounds much like Cindy Cleminshire’s story. Interestingly, there is a link to the ARC. I  will most likely tell the story of another woman who another pastor at Gateway sexually abused. I’m working out the details of both stories, And there is still the “Big” story, which we hope will break shortly.

I am not a complementarian in the way many conservative religious leaders use the term. As a Christian, I need to be complementarian in this way. From 1 Corinthians 12: 15-26 NIV,

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Each of us has something unique to contribute to the Body of Christ, and this verse resonates with me.

On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it,

That is put there to let those who think they have nothing to give know they are indispensable and honored, especially by God. I think about the men and women who care for the children during worship services. I know some who regularly pick up trash for the section of road that our church took on as “our road.” I am so impressed by those who give up their time to do “Vacation Bible School.” I look at the hundreds of excited and rambunctious kids, knowing that I would lose my mind in such a setting, So I contribute some snacks instead, blessing those who take this on.

My husband often remarks that he doesn’t know how I deal with the people who say nasty things to me, to those whom I write, or to those who comment on TWW. For him, it would be a deal breaker. For me, I can often turn these insults into an amusing aside like the “Daughters of Stan.” We have differing ways of dealing with the world; each is important and honorable.

Complementarianism means that I will use what He has given me in the ways He has opened up for me. Many men who believe women should not teach in the church read this blog. So, in some strange way, I think I am discussing subjects that I would hope to be able to teach in a church. I reach more people through this blog than I would ever reach in a church. I have also directly critiqued pastors and lived to tell about it. Many women are doing the same.

And in this journey, I have discovered something strange.

Complementarianism seems to be more about protecting the men than it is about protecting the women.

Recently, Baptist News Global posted  Texas court makes public 10,000 pages of sealed documents in sexual abuse case.

More than 10,000 pages of highly confidential and legally protected information from a sexual abuse victim’s case against Paige Patterson and Southwestern Seminary were published publicly online for about three days this weekend.

The apparent clerical error occurred as case materials in Jane Roe v. Leighton Paige Patterson and Southwestern Seminary were transferred from the Fifth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals to the Texas Supreme Court. The Fifth Circuit has asked the Texas high court to rule on one particular issue in the case, which both Southwestern and Patterson have sought to have thrown out for lack of merit.

…Visible information included the victim’s name, medical and psychiatric records, Social Security number, driver’s license number, banking information, address, phone number, email address, police reports of her alleged assaults, sealed testimony, and other personal identifying information and confidential communication implicating several dozens of individuals with a relationship to the case and the seminary.

…It has been widely reported that Patterson said in an email that he would seek to “break her down” in a private meeting to extract some confession of sin.

Patterson and his coterie of men who, as complementarians, claim to be protectors of women.

Jane Roe has courageously stood up against Paige Patterson’s malicious bullying. Patterson and a group of men (no women)  met with her.

In an initial meeting where she first reported the sexual assault to Patterson and a group of “all men,” Patterson asked Roe a series of “unnecessarily invasive questions about the allegations,” including if the alleged assailant (who is now deceased and testified under oath to a prior consensual sexual history with several other women) had “ejaculated” as she was being raped and “if she had had her period.” She also alleges Patterson told her it was “good” that she was raped because “the right man wouldn’t care if she was a virgin or not.”

Here is a picture of the room where Jane Roe met with Paige Patterson and “the men.”

Christa Brown expands on this meeting, Court’s Error Puts SBC’s Culture of Cruelty on Display … and it’s about more than Paige Patterson.

So, imagine that traumatized student sitting in a room like this—a room filled with “all men” and dead animals—being interrogated in such an intrusive way..

And it continued in a subsequent meeting.

In a subsequent meeting, Roe alleges that Patterson asked if she had sent nude photographs of herself to the perpetrator. And when Roe’s mother asked Patterson how the assailant, who had a criminal history, had been allowed into the seminary, “Patterson allegedly lunged across his desk, sternly pointed his finger in her face, and said he would ‘unleash lawyers’ if she ‘questioned’ his ‘leadership’ again.”

It would appear that those men in the meeting remained silent and didn’t object to Patterson’s method of “breaking her down.” These men seem to indicate that complementarian men are really interested in protecting themselves and their positions. Women can be ridiculed in their paradigm, and that is why I no longer trust their interpretation of the role of women.

Christa gives some examples of other complementarian men who would claim to be protectors of women but kept silent.

Her own story of being raped.

I’m reminded of when I spoke before a panel of the SBC’s Executive Committee, talking about a pastor’s rapes when I was a kid, and one man chortled out loud while another physically rotated in his chair so as to turn his back to me. And not a single other man in that room said one word about their colleagues’ grotesque incivility.

…Stories of his brutishness and bullying abound, from how he handled dozens of clergy sex abuse reports involving Darrell Gilyard, to how he dismissed a seminary professor over gender, to how he advised women to stay in abusive relationships, to how he creepily objectified a 16-year-old girl from the pulpit.

…In 2008, Patterson called me and other child sex abuse victims “evil-doers,” because we were speaking out about Baptist clergy sex abuse. He added that we were “just as reprehensible as sex criminals.”

Christa presented this clip of Patterson objectifying a teen girl in a most demeaning fashion. Listen to those people laughing along with Patterson. Doesn’t Patterson look creepy?

This video made me think that I would never allow my daughters to be in a room alone with him. I agree with Christa in this next statement.

The Southern Baptist Convention has normalized misogyny and cruelty.

Women shouldn’t teach, but complementarian men can bully women and protect men.

In 2009, I called for the resignation of Paige Patterson. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary was in the process of dedicating Paige Patterson Hall. Many well-known SBC pastors, some here in Raleigh, showed up for the dedication. Thirteen years later, Patterson’s name was removed from that hall. So many men, including current leaders, stood by Patterson.

Yet, simultaneously, I was teaching why Patterson should not be in ministry. Who was right? The men who stood by Patterson or me and many other women, Yet we are told we cannot teach. I think we have disproven that complementarian canard. Not only should women be allowed to teach, but women, in many circumstances, are way ahead of many men in the SBC. I won’t name those leaders, but guess who was at SEBTS in 2009 to dedicate Patterson Hall?  They came from Raleigh/Wake Forest, Louisville, and many areas of the South. These men, who think I should not teach, show they need to be taught.

Comments

Do Complementarian Men Protect Women or Themselves? They Need the Women to Teach Them. — 102 Comments

  1. My wife and I are “complementarians” … our spiritual gifts complement each other, the way the Body of Christ at large is supposed to operate as set forth in Scripture. To silence half of the Church is to not hear all that God is saying to us. To decommission half of God’s army is to not be fully equipped for the war at hand. To relegate women to the back pew is to position them where God does not want them. Look around you folks, the world is a mess, Satan is having a ball … we need all hands on deck!

    “Complementarianism seems to be more about protecting the men than it is about protecting the women.” Weak unspiritual men want to be protected ‘from’ women who know more than they do about walking in the Spirit! “Sit down, shut up, submit” was never uttered by God, no matter how you twist Scripture to support “the beauty of complementarity.”

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  5. In a patriarchal society, men will always have more value over women. So much of gender norms are socially conditioned because of how leniently society treats males. “Boys will be boys” but meanwhile girls must sit up straight, be “ladylike” and receive extra scrutiny not given the boys. Secular “complementarianism” is becoming more popular among young men because they want submissive women with whom they can do what they please, not a full person who can challenge them and cause them to grow. The images of a traditional family from the 50s (always white, of course) is fetishized but the reality is many of the husbands from that era were horrible and women were trapped in abusive marriages. Be wary of those preaching complementarian ideals, often they just exist to excuse the sin of men at the cost of women.

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  7. “These men seem to indicate that complementarian men are really interested in protecting themselves and their positions.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    This is the history of CBMW.

    The the theological basis of male headship (ESS) was dismantled at the Evangelical Theological Society, 2016 in San Antonio.

    They ceased to defend their position (because they couldn’t).

    Instead of acknowledging their error, they went silent for months.

    then they suddenly re-emerge with a new website, a new brand, and a new mission. This time their chosen target was sexual minorities.

    A savvy way to save face and recoup their losses of supporters, by using sexual minorities to foment a culture war against them.

    it astounds me. they use human beings in vulnerable positions to prop themselves up & make themselves legitimate.

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  9. Feminism has won.

    Since 1970, the marriage rate has declined by almost 60%.

    60% of all college degrees now earned by women.

    Women no longer have to please a man, unless it’s that transient boyfriend you’re hoping might become a husband [ probably not ].

    Taking into account longevity of the job, other factors; there is equal pay for men and women. [ Governmental jobs of course guarantee that. ]

    Women can create your own debt, have as many credit cards as you desire; buy property, own your own Mercedes etc.

    Women have won! [ other then the fact that men are less and less likely to marry you but maybe that’s considered a plus – I’m not sure anymore ].

    You don’t like male leadership in your church? There are now thousands of churches who’s senior pastor is a female. Feel free to attend one and be a part of the leadership.

    Heck, if you’re so inclined go start your own church – the world will praise you for it – where you can establish any polity you choose including making sure all position of authority are filled by women. In this day and age there is literally NOTHING stopping you from doing this.

    Paige Patterson is gone – didn’t you notice?

    Egalitarianism has won.
    Marriage? Bah Humbug
    Compromise? Bah Humbug.
    Complimentary relationship? Bah Humbug.
    Patriarchy? Bah Humbug – who needs a man.

    This is the era of the strong, independent and unmarried female [ with or without kids ].

    Feminism has won. “You can have it all baby!” – except possibly a marriage – which is so yesterday

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  13. > …In 2008, Patterson called me and other child sex abuse victims “evil-doers,” because we were speaking out about Baptist clergy sex abuse. He added that we were “just as reprehensible as sex criminals.”

    This reminds me a bit of “word-faith teaching”, that speech acts by believers can create the realities that are spoken of. An implication of this I have encountered in people who embrace the teaching is that is can be dangerous to speak of medical diagnoses, since such speech acts could cause disease. I once had the surreal experience of a person, whom I was trying to help navigate medical care for a significant problem, get upset with a medical doctor who was trying to talk to him about worrisome indications in diagnostic imaging. In an aggrieved tone he asked the doctor, “Why are you trying to make me sick?” The doctor was, understandably, bewildered and shaken by this question.

    The assertion of the OP quote, that those who draw attention to actual instances of evil behavior are as bad as the evil-doers themselves, to my mind resembles “word of faith”, in the sense that it seems to proceed from an assumption that if evil deeds are not spoken of, it is, for practical purposes, as if they had not taken place. Perhaps it’s a twisted application of “love covers a multitude of sins.” It is as if drawing attention to objective evil makes it more real than it would otherwise be.

    I have to wonder whether these people actually believe that God sees all and is both powerful and just. Do they believe that what is sown will be reaped?

    It seems to me that to forbid public scrutiny of grievous evil in the churches while also doing very little to stop the evil or even help those harmed is not “faith” but a form of practical atheism.

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  14. “While I think I know about the ETS 2016 San Antonio meeting, I think a refresher is due.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    Here is Kevin Giles’ paper he presented at the 2016 meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society. His presentation was the heavy hitter in the much anticipated debate.

    As well as a bit of his reflections after the debate.

    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    https://www.reformation21.org/mos/1517/kevin-giles-on-ess

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  17. senecagriggs: Women have won! [ other than the fact that men are less and less likely to marry you but maybe that’s considered a plus – I’m not sure anymore

    You are bordering on a comment not being allowed. The same thing could be said about men. You sound bitter. It’s good for women to get college degrees. Why is that a problem? I was pleased that my breast surgeon was a woman. Do you think she took the place of some man? Yikes, you sure know how to talk the talk without delving deep into all of your “proof.”

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  20. So, imagine that traumatized student sitting in a room like this—a room filled with “all men” and dead animals—being interrogated in such an intrusive way..

    That decor is beyond even a hunting lodge in Central Europe’s Scwhartzwald.
    Into “Bungalow Bill Wanna-be” country.
    And all from Canned Hunts.
    Was there also a HUGE glass-fronted Gun Cabinet behind the ManaGAWD’s desk?

    I’m reminded of when I spoke before a panel of the SBC’s Executive Committee, talking about a pastor’s rapes when I was a kid, and one man chortled out loud…

    Like Beavis & Butthead!
    “hHE SCOOOOORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-hUH!”

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  24. senecagriggs: Women have won! [ other then the fact that men are less and less likely to marry you

    This is straight out of InCel Manosphere talking points.
    From Real Manhood YouTube videos that start with ostentatiously lighting an Andrew Tate-sized cigar from a wooden match. Videos full of sternum-length beards and words like “Red Pill”, “Chad”, “foid”, and “hoe”.

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  27. elastigirl:
    elastigirl,

    …and it means that all they have is wives submit to husbands just cuz – which taken to its logical conclusions is meaningless & ridiculous.

    But it DOES make sense if you view everything – EVERYTHING – through the lens of Power Struggle.

    For in that alternate reality there is nothing but Dominance or Submission, your boot stamping on their face or their boot stamping on yours. And “The Weak are the Meat which The Strong do Eat.”

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  29. Headless Unicorn Guy: A lot of the Manosphere seems to consist of men who got burned REAL BAD in their past and got stuck permanently in The Rage/Revenge Phase.

    I’ve often thought that “the beauty of complementarity” is a way for unspiritual men to get back at women in church for having no dates in high school, getting bullied as a child by a neighborhood girl, a woman boss at work, etc. Complementarianism is more psycho sickness than Biblical truth, IMO. Now they can use a false doctrine to demand “sit down, shut up, submit woman!” so they can feel like a “man.” Sick.

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  34. Am I bitter? No, just old. Still married, reared kids, had/have a career, paid bills and have attended the same church for the last 40 years. I have taught adult Sunday School, served a couple terms as an elder, developed life long friends and am still excited to be there every Sunday.

    But if I was a single woman with hopes of being in a life-long marriage, giving birth to and rearing children; I could be worried if there is a man out there who would commit for life to be husband to me and father to our children. And if that didn’t happen [ as it is now ever more likely NOT to happen ], I could see myself as increasingly bitter.

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  39. Max: I’ve often thought that “the beauty of complementarity” is a way for unspiritual men to get back at women in church for having no dates in high school

    Exactly what I thought the first time I actually saw a pic of Womb Tomb Swanson.
    And the first time I heard a sound bite of his voice.
    High School Geek who can now take revenge for High School (by Divine Right!)

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  41. Muff Potter: Women are the stronger of our species.

    Back in my Old School D&D days, a common way to sex a character roll was to compare Strength to Constitution which were both rolled on 3D6).
    If the Strength was higher than Con. the character was male.
    If Con was higher than Strength, female.
    If Ste = Con, it could go either way. (Except for thae one gamer in the Eighties who was kinda obsessed about herm characters…)

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  42. Max,

    “I’ve often thought that “the beauty of complementarity” is a way for unspiritual men to get back at women in church for having no dates in high school, getting bullied as a child by a neighborhood girl, a woman boss at work, etc.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    oh my word, yes.

    in fact, at best, i think all of current theology that considers itself ‘conservative’ is designed to redeem men’s middle school experience.

    but really, it’s to give men divine permission to act like 6 year olds with self-gratulations, thinking they are getting prizes in heaven.

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  43. senecagriggs: Heck, if you’re so inclined go start your own church – the world will praise you for it – where you can establish any polity you choose including making sure all position of authority are filled by women. In this day and age there is literally NOTHING stopping you from doing this

    I’m not corrupt enough to start a church. That and no one likes me… except my wife…oh well… some girls don’t like guys like me, but one girl does…

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  45. My church of 40 years continues to grow; lots of young couple with their youngsters; average age is about 35? I think I’m 3rd oldest possibly.

    Polity is elders/congregational.

    We wouldn’t be where we are if it wasn’t also for awesome women who are highly honored and fulfill vital roles.

    Per Scripture, elders are exclusively men, women do not have spiritual authority over adult congregants and they never preach but at times have given testimony from the pulpit.

    [ For what it’s worth, I have never preached a sermon despite serving as an elder off and on ]

    And that’s my church for the last 40 years.

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  46. Samuel Conner,

    We encounter almost daily people who believe if we get vaccinations of any kind, especially covid, or wear a mask we are invading their world with negative thoughts and could make them sick. In other words, covid or the flu do not exist or make people sick, people who believe those things are real make people sick with their negative thoughts.

    And that is sick, truly.

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  47. Some of us just can’t win. I aspired to be a full time homemaker even when I was a kid. I got the good education, and my dear husband had no expectations that I would choose to stay home. He did, however, accept my decision and did a bang up good job supporting me and the family financially and emotionally. It was our decision, was the right one for us, and we have not imposed that on any other person or family. My kids have chosen a different path, one is pursuing a very high powered traditionally male dominated field (she is female) and we are highly supportive of that.

    All that said–scarcely a week goes by when I am not accused of selling out my fellow women by having chosen to stay home, or recipient of marital welfare, or point blank informed that I chose not to be a fully functioning member of society.

    None of those are true. For some families the 50s model of he earns the bacon and she fries it up in the pan was hell on earth. For others of us it truly was wonderful.

    I long for the day women are truly free–free to choose a career without being chastised for that, and free to choose being a full time homemaker as career without being ridiculted for that.

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  48. linda: I long for the day women are truly free–free to choose a career without being chastised for that, and free to choose being a full time homemaker as career without being ridiculted for that.

    I agree.
    I hope that true-believer-ideologues (of any stripe) will finally realize that every-day real people (for the most part) do not buy into their shtick.

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  50. Muff Potter:
    And by the way, the pics of Patterson’s hunting ‘trophies’ up top make me wanna’ barf.
    Maybe there’s a hunter from space who will make a trophy of him.

    Reminds me a twisted, but funny joke about a bear hunter. The punch line is “You are not here for the hunting are you?” Or the T-shirt that says “Here is your deer meat, mother******”. Support the right to arm bears.

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  53. Observant Outsider,
    And it sure isn’t in a good state now.
    No Companionship possible, no Trust possible.
    When I was around 50, I gave up on trying to get past a first date (if that) when I realized that I was building a decent retirement nest egg and if I got cleaned out by a divorce-for-fun-and-profit gold digger, there was no possible way I could recover. So I MGTOWed.

    And since then with Social Media and click-swipe, the dating game has only gotten worse.

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  56. senecagriggs: This is the era of the strong, independent and unmarried female [ with or without kids ].

    Feminism has won. “You can have it all baby!” – except possibly a marriage – which is so yesterday

    I’m a single, never married, childless woman who has supported myself for decades and you are directly attacking *me*, Seneca. I am not going to explain to you why I haven’t married, nor am I going to let you in to the discussions I’m having with my boyfriend about possibly getting married now (we’ve known each other since 1981).

    Instead, I’m going to point out that far too many men don’t want competent, intelligent women as their equals in marriage. Instead, they want wives who will give in on everything the man wants. They want wives they can boss around. They want wives who don’t know about consent, so that they can have sex with them whenever they want. They want wives who they tell to stay at home with the kids and home school them (even if that is not best for the wife or the children). Or, alternately, order their wives back to work so they can make more money to buy new toys (like Playstations or ATVs) for themselves. They want to lord it over their wives.

    And we are in an era where women are able to support ourselves and we don’t have to settle for guys who are just looking for someone to boss around and control. We, and the generations after us, we have the ability to get out there and make something of ourselves. And if we have to leave husbands who treated us like chattel, with work and struggle, we can support ourselves and our children.

    You, Seneca, want to go back to a time when men could treat women like garbage, and especially their wives. We’re not going back. I hope you understand that. We are not going back.

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  57. senecagriggs: But if I was a single woman with hopes of being in a life-long marriage, giving birth to and rearing children; I could be worried if there is a man out there who would commit for life to be husband to me and father to our children. And if that didn’t happen [ as it is now ever more likely NOT to happen ], I could see myself as increasingly bitter.

    I am a single woman and I am not bitter about having never married up until this point. I’m not going to discuss why I’ve never married, as it is none of your business. But read what I said above. We women are not here to put up with man-babies who expect to be coddled, while at the same time these same man-babies want to boss women around. We’re not the property of men, and men shouldn’t expect to be awarded a woman. We don’t have to take that.

    I like to tell people that I am gender non-conforming, at least in the Evangelical sense, because I never married and had children. My point is that this is the ONLY role expected of women within larger Evanglicalism. Wife and mother. Nothing else seems to matter. It is all of a piece with so many Evangelical men (and some women) being happy with all women silenced in Evangelical churches. I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating: Many Evangelical churches are downright hostile towards not-married women (whether single, divorced or widowed, whether childless or with children). The irony is that for the first time ever, there are more adult not-married women here in the USA than there are married women.

    And that’s because we have a choice.

    We don’t have to settle for some dude who wants a woman to boss around on just about everything, while he has no problem retreating into his man cave after a day at work and play video games all evening. Or, going to church meetings where they solemnly discuss how to deal with uppity women. We can take care of ourselves and our children. It’s not easy, but it’s easier than dealing with a guy who thinks he owns us and is at the same time a man child expecting us to take care of us.

    Seriously, Seneca, women and girls are not male property. You need to realize this, and also realize that Jesus didn’t die so that women and girls would remain male property forever. Blargh.

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  58. senecagriggs: My church of 40 years continues to grow; lots of young couple with their youngsters; average age is about 35? I think I’m 3rd oldest possibly.

    Polity is elders/congregational.

    Seneca, what percentage of your congregation are not-married women (single, divorced, widowed)? If it’s not slightly above 50% of all women, then your congregation has *failed.* And given your rant, I’m pretty sure your congregation is unfriendly towards the slightly over 50% of women like me who are not married. So go to church next Sunday and count your adult women. I believe that you’ll find the vast majority are married, and if you have single women, you probably don’t know their names or you see them as “problematic” in the back of your head.

    When your church only appeals to part of the population, the part of the population that you push as the only true way to be authentically Christian (even though that’s not true), then your church has *failed.* It’s certainly not a church I would attend, even as a visitor. I have better things to do with my time.

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  60. linda: We encounter almost daily people who believe if we get vaccinations of any kind, especially covid, or wear a mask we are invading their world with negative thoughts and could make them sick. In other words, covid or the flu do not exist or make people sick, people who believe those things are real make people sick with their negative thoughts.

    This reminds me of the “Christian Science” of Mary Baker Eddy: essentially a gnostic system that only mental and spiritual realities exist; and that not just illness, but the physical world altogether, is an illusion that can be controlled with proper application of the former.

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  65. “I’m a single, never married, childless woman who has supported myself for decades and you are directly attacking *me*, Seneca”

    Dear Muslin, I am attacking nobody but I am pointing out that for the current, Westernized unmarried women, the odds of a decent marriage are declining statistically.
    ——-
    MUS“ My point is that this [ marriage] is the ONLY role expected of women within larger Evanglicalism.”

    Muslin, that’s a crock. Scripture has always made it quite clear that marriage is not for everybody; women or men.
    ——
    MUS“We women are not here to put up with man-babies who expect to be coddled, while at the same time these same man-babies want to boss women around. We’re not the property of men, and men shouldn’t expect to be awarded a woman. We don’t have to take that.”

    Women absolutely don’t have to take that BUT, as I’ve seen thoughtful feminists say, one of the unforeseen consequences from the rise of feminism is the increasing irresponsibility of unmarried men [man-babies]. More and more men are not looking to get married, they’re quite content to find an unmarried woman for some “physical intimacy” and when that grows old, they leave.
    “Shacking up; all the fun until it’s time to go. Sayonara.”
    ——
    I believe “shacking up” is a BAD deal for women – and of course it violates the Biblical principle of no fornication.
    ———-

    MUS “Seneca, what percentage of your congregation are not-married women (single, divorced, widowed)? If it’s not slightly above 50% of all women, then your congregation has *failed.* 

    Like any normal slice of the population we have several women who are widows, we have some women who are divorced but surely not 50%. Not sure how you have decided that if your church isn’t at least 50 percent of unmarried women the church has failed.
    ———-
    MUS “It’s certainly not a church I would attend, even as a visitor. “

    You have judged my church and found it wanting – okay.
    ————

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  66. linda,

    Linda, I’m assuming you’re a little older than I, and/or maybe you live in a more conservative part of the country. I’m in my early 50s and a woman, and it seems like my peers largely think the mommy wars are ridiculous. I’ve worked part time but have primarily stayed home with my kids, and I’ve never faced the kinds of comments you reference. I’m so sorry that you have, and I think it’s preposterous. Much of the volunteer work of the world, especially in schools, would not happen were it not for moms who can do that stuff. We aren’t lounging on our couches eating bonbons.

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  69. linda: None of those are true. For some families the 50s model of he earns the bacon and she fries it up in the pan was hell on earth. For others of us it truly was wonderful.

    I still cannot fathom how CBMW has been able to manufacture an ideology from the pages of scripture, and what’s worse, sell it hook line and sinker, and say that it MUST APPLY to all people of faith. No dissent and no exceptions, just total submission.

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  70. senecagriggs: But if I was a single woman with hopes of being in a life-long marriage, giving birth to and rearing children; I could be worried if there is a man out there who would commit for life to be husband to me and father to our children. And if that didn’t happen [ as it is now ever more likely NOT to happen ], I could see myself as increasingly bitter.

    Hmmm. For a married old dude you seem to know single women (and no, listening to Beyonce does not count).
    Is there something you’re trying to say? Some unfulfilled yearning?
    It’s ok, I know the “Crying Game” secret… you’re safe here…

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  74. Muff Potter,

    “I still cannot fathom how CBMW has been able to manufacture an ideology from the pages of scripture, and what’s worse, sell it hook line and sinker, and say that it MUST APPLY to all people of faith.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    people like to win. people like to gloat over losers.

    it’s a great paradigm for oneupmanship, creating in-groups and out-groups.

    and religious people love to suffer for God points.

    but let’s be clear, comp men are not suffering by the pretend so-called burden they carry.

    reminds me of the Jerry Maguire movie & the football player with the multi million dollar contract crying in an ESPN interview because of the pressure of all that money.

    comp women are the ones on a continuum of indignities to abuse & psychological / mortal harm.

    the fact that this is lost on both comp men and women is a measure of how christian culture plays on and feeds on the more base elements of human nature.

    i’ll never get over the irony.

    whoever the Son sets free is slave indeed to a sick system that has nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth.

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  75. Muff Potter: I still cannot fathom how CBMW has been able to manufacture an ideology from the pages of scripture

    It’s been going on for centuries … men twisting Scripture to support a false doctrine … IMO, it’s the stuff that resides in most of Christendom these days.

    Muff Potter: sell it hook line and sinker, and say that it MUST APPLY to all people of faith. No dissent and no exceptions, just total submission

    It’s an easy sell to the Biblically-illiterate. Even some of the best Bible scholars have taken the bait because they read Scripture through their intellect, rather than by the Holy Spirit. Pray that the Holy Spirit would teach you when you read Scripture and “lean not unto your own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

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  76. Muff Potter: And by the way, the pics of Patterson’s hunting ‘trophies’

    And every one from a Canned Hunt.
    Ask a REAL hunter about Canned Hunts sometime.
    And be prepared to jump clear.

    Just like those Vivaldi cops strutting around in their tac gear with assault rifles letting the school shooter do his thing for an entiree hour, MenaGAWD like to strut around going “ME MAN! ME REAL MAN! ME KILLER! SEE? SEE? SEE?”

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  78. R: Much of the volunteer work of the world, especially in schools, would not happen were it not for moms who can do that stuff.

    As an ex-Southern Baptist (spent 70 years with SBC – I’m done with them now), I can tell you that many (many!) rural SBC churches would be boarded up if it weren’t for godly women who stood in the gap to pray and serve faithfully to keep them open during tough financial times. There are many more godly women in SBC life than godly men, in my humble (but accurate) opinion … they are the best servants of God, the best Sunday School teachers, the best witnesses for Christ, true prayer warriors at the foundation of every SBC church.

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  79. linda: I long for the day women are truly free–free to choose a career without being chastised for that, and free to choose being a full time homemaker as career without being ridiculted for that.

    Linda, I’m sorry you have experienced this. I am one of the childless who has fought for 50 years for women to have exactly that choice.

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  82. R:
    linda,

    Linda, I’m assuming you’re a little older than I, and/or maybe you live in a more conservative part of the country. I’m in my early 50s and a woman, and it seems like my peers largely think the mommy wars are ridiculous. I’ve worked part time but have primarily stayed home with my kids, and I’ve never faced the kinds of comments you reference. I’m so sorry that you have, and I think it’s preposterous. Much of the volunteer work of the world, especially in schools, would not happen were it not for moms who can do that stuff. We aren’t lounging on our couches eating bonbons.

    Older, yes, and conservative–well, more conservative than God and JD Vance for sure, lol. But I encountered it more living in the intermountain west. At one point when a news reporter referred to full time homemakers as playing Suzie Homemaker I invited her to shadow me for a day. Husband, 2 small kids, the peaches, the corn, the plums, part of the apples, and about every veggie you can imagine were ripe and ready to be canned. She declined, rolling her eyes at that “non work.” Right.

    I considered it my calling, and looking back, it was. One of kids turned out the have very special needs (genetric, in utero exposure to toxin, abused before placed with us, etc.) Another was extremely gifted. Both of those needed a lot of hands on mothering, including one some homeschooling for time, that I could not have given were we relying on my paycheck.

    Not for every woman, or every man. But definitely a valid vocation.

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  84. senecagriggs: I believe “shacking up” is a BAD deal for women – and of course it violates the Biblical principle of no fornication.

    But concubines are A-OK! Give me a break. The one man, one woman ideal came from ancient Greece. Galilee (where Jesus came from) was very influenced by Hellenic thought – which in turn influenced Jesus.

    Judea was also part of the Roman Empire, and legally in the Roman Empire marriage was was between one man and one woman.

    Were the Romans and Greeks always living by these standards? No more than we do.

    Keeping in mind that Paul was a Roman citizen and that most of what we consider Europe became Roman successor states we can see how the “New Testament” came to differ from the “Old Testament”.

    Solomon had nine hundred concubines but Jack can eat surf and turf at Red Lobster… assuming Red Lobster stays in business.

    So yeah… monogamy…. when in Rome….

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  89. linda: In other words, covid or the flu do not exist or make people sick, people who believe those things are real make people sick with their negative thoughts.

    Corollary:
    If there are no more people who believe those things are real, nobody will ever get sick.
    No people, no more problem.
    Let the Cleansing begin…

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  91. Jeffrey J Chalmers: There was some right wing nuts in our state, eary in the pandemic, that refused to accept, on their death bed, that COVID was killing them…. I still can not get my head around that kind of thinking…

    I’m convinced that the church was the root source of mass infections of Covid in many American communities … churchgoers who denied that Covid was a major threat, wouldn’t follow public health warnings, didn’t get vaccinated when vaccines became available, contracted Covid and spread it.

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  93. linda: And it is still ongoing where I live.

    My wife and I are just now getting over a long bout with the Covid “FLiRT” variant. I’m convinced that I contracted the virus at our bank via a personal banker who came to work sick without a mask, coughing her head off … I then passed it to my wife before I tested positive for Covid. I should have had my mask on at the bank, but thought it was too early in the season to be worried. Evidently, Covid is year-round now.

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  94. Max–yes, it IS year round. It hasn’t gone away. Thankfully not as many are dying, but long covid is making it a mass disabling event. My hubby survived polio but has many disabilities due to it. He thinks that if covid left people more visibly maimed, as with crutches, braces, wheel chairs, or iron lungs we might take it more seriously.

    As it is, we don’t see the harm to hearts, lungs, kidneys, and brains so we assume everyone is fine. And everyone isn’t.

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  99. Alex Andru’: I was a pastor in a church for years and I resigned over this very issue. I could not pretend like this was not literally killing it’s members

    I can’t think of any church I have ever attended that I would die for! On the other hand, I would give my life for the Body of Christ. There’s a vast difference between the institutional church and the Body of Christ … they are not always one and the same.

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  100. linda: My hubby survived polio but has many disabilities due to it

    And to all those COVID Deniers denouncing us Pansies and Sissies for being being such Cowards about “a 99% Survival Rate”, remember ALL those in wheelchairs, crutches, braces, and iron lungs were people who SURVIVED polio.

    And polio didn’t drop your IQ 3-5 points each time you survive it like Long COVID.

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  101. Max: churchgoers who denied that Covid was a major threat, wouldn’t follow public health warnings, didn’t get vaccinated when vaccines became available…

    “I fear GOD, not Man. I fear GOD, not Man.”
    — Andrew Tate, Alpha Male of Alpha Males, at a press conference after the Romanian cops hauled him in (again)

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