Missing someone has to be one of the worst human emotions. All the other feelings like anger and fear and horror get some much more airplay, as if their intensity gives them more value, but whereas those emotions come in violent bursts and are gone again, the gnawing ache of loss has to be simply endured. It’s like background noise, it’s always there, it never goes away. You just have to try to block it out, distract yourself, hope that tomorrow the hole they left behind has grown a little smaller. Alexandra Potter
Whenever I have to write about churches like Gateway, I often get a pit in my stomach as I think about the members of the church who are the “true Christ believers,” I am not talking about the ones who deny that their pastor could be a molester or the ones who claim the victim of the abuse was to blame or “someone should have done something to prevent this abuse.” Those who claim such things are either delusional or they follow a famous pastor like Robert Morris as opposed to following Jesus.
If truth be told, I sometimes feel conflicted when I write a post exposing a pastor who is probably a pedophile. I always know that what I write will affect how the church functions. That will be hard on some who stay. I never feel guilty about exposing an abuser, but sometimes I feel bad for those “true believers.”
I watch how those on X (formerly known as Twitter) respond. Many responses fall under the category of “Anyone who stays is crazy.” Some also add that members have no choice but to leave such a church. People who choose to go get kudos. Those who stay rarely comment. I suspect they want to avoid being insulted for their choices.
I have been speaking with a woman who has been a long-time member of Gateway. At this juncture, she no longer feels comfortable in organized religion. We began to talk of those who despise the abuse that occurred at Gateway but still decided to stay. Here are her thoughts. She wishes to remain anonymous, so we can call her Jane.
I am interested in hearing your thoughts. Many of us, like me, left the church that had abusive pastors or volunteers. I have two questions.
- If you left, how do you feel about those who were true believers who decided to stay?
- If you stayed, how do you feel about those true believers who left?
I appreciate the time and love Jane put into our discussions. She helped me understand Gateway’s trajectory over the years.
Dee, I thought I would share my journal entry with you. After we talked last week about the ones who stay, these were my thoughts as I pondered what compels them to stay.
Why do they stay?
These people I know.
They are people who would genuinely give you the shirt off their backs, sacrificing deeply for a cause they believe in. They have selflessly offered furniture, savings, stocks, bonds, and even their retirement accounts to finance the mission. They’ve worked tirelessly into the early hours of the morning. They have persevered until their backs ached, their fingers throbbed, their feet protested, and their heads felt heavy and hearts broken.
These remarkable people have poured every ounce of their being into the vision they believed God has bestowed upon Gateway Church. They seek no acknowledgment or praise; their actions are driven solely by a profound love for God and a desire to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with everyone they encounter.
The depth of their love, dedication, and devotion is truly beyond words. They are steadfast in their commitment to navigate the challenges and hardships that come their way, wielding love and grace as their guiding forces. They extend their grace and love to the victims.
They do not excuse the horror of abuse and toxicity, they stand for the victims and against their abusers, all the while pressing forward to meet the multitude of needs of the congregation and community as a whole. They care about Cindy’s pain and want her to receive justice, they lobby for Robert to be held accountable! They now work with renewed vigor to fight for change, to see dysfunctional systems torn down and polices and mindsets put in place to protect all God’s children.
In doing so, they fulfill their calling, motivated by an unwavering love for God and humanity. They embody the true hands and feet of Jesus on this earth. This is why they stay!
Jane
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Right now, I am struggling. I belong to a denomination that has made decisions with which I deeply disagree. My reading and studying only affirms their moral failure. I have been to our local minister and asked, “Does Christian morality still exist?” He answers but in a word spin that leaves me knowing that I have been “spun.” The “church” is choosing to conform to the world rather than to turn to God in humble obedience. Despite Jesus’ death on the cross, we are missing the point if we think God wants us to do whatever makes us feel good. We only need to read the Bible to see how that turns out.
I recently saw a “reels” on FB labeling my denomination “apostate.” I agree. Yet, it is the local church that supported my mother when she lost her home, the local church that walked with me (sort of; because we were closed because of COVID and all the things) as my mother was dying. I don’t just walk away from my family in Christ. For me, the leaving isn’t *that* easy.
At this time, the most problematic issue is tithing. I know that 10% of the tithe goes to the parent bureaucracy and its apostasy. The local minister told me to mark it “stays with the local church” but that becomes a shell game where my donation stays local and more of someone else’s donation is sent to support the apostasy of the parent denomination. So, I have chosen to give to designated funds at the church (the book-keeping is different and I avoid the shell game though I think it is messing with the budget– but not my problem). I give to CASA for Kids. I give to the local food bank. The sense of reluctance that I have to give to the “church” is screaming at me….I know that my time with this church is limited. Yet, my prayers tell me to stay.
I agree with “Jane.” Church is about a body of believers and the community. I believe there comes a point that the apostasy forces one to leave, but it is a decision that each individual has to approach with prayerful consideration.
The fact that we are so rapid to look down up on the “tainted” followers in a church that “falls” because of a tainted leader…..no, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We pray for those left behind. We pray that they have discernment. Obviously, in some of the religions of the personality, the discernment is lacking because of the rapid rinse and recycle phenomena, but the members of the flock may have other things at play that keep them in the pew.
This year, for the first year, I am reading through the entire Bible…..I am using a chronological program. Next year, I will dig deeper but go through it again. I keep praying through it. Through that process Holy Spirit is telling me “not yet.” So, I am not moving, though I do keep reading, keep listening, keep discerning. I am learning to speak up, but for me, during this time of uncertainty, the most important thing is my relationship with God, and I keep that going by turning to the Bible. The second most important thing is the community both within and outside the walls of my church. I do know that it is up to me NOT to support the apostate direction that my denomination has chosen.
COVID with its prolong lockdowns taught me that the physical church, the community of believers, is not to be replaced to e-church. When we see the failure of the organization if we immediately ran away, we would never have a church home. So, for now, I stay.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celeste,
Christ and parts of the NT warn us of false teacher, and even more graphic to me… wolves in sheep’s clothing….
In many ways, we should not be surprised by all the “yuck” in the Church….. look at human history! It is not “pretty”…. To say the organized, human, church is any different is really not realistic..
While what I just said calls into question the theology of many preacher boys, I think it is true since these “preacher boys” are just human..
I am further coming to the conclusion that being a Christian is not following the correct “Ideology”…. It is following Christ, and his example…. For years I felt the “Weight” of not being this super Evangelist, in the specific WAY THEY taught us. It was rammed down my throat for a long time…. But as I grow old, and participate on TWW, I am finding my calling to just call for people to follow Christ example.. not pray this “prayer”, or be dunked three time ( i.e. a single dunking not good enough, etc, etc, etc)….
For TWW to me, it is standing up for the down trodded by “the church”…. Which Christ was quit explicit about…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“If you left, how do you feel about those who were true believers who decided to stay?”
The org. In the end, if the org wins out without Jesus, or takes priority over Jesus, some “really good Christian people” will stick with the org. So be it. Their conscience, their choice. And it’s up to God to deal with that with them.
Some will stick with the org, go on serving the org, and smile saying, “Sorry that bad stuff happens,” while doing nothing about the bad stuff while they continue to support the org.
Corrie ten Boom and her family served Jesus, not an org, and family members paid with their lives. The NT disciples and Jesus Himself, the same.
Gladys Aylward and George Müller served God without the org. Hudson Taylor, too.
From Daniel 11.31-32. “He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the Covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.”
Very simple. Never easy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Our worship leader (27 and the pastor’s son) molested the daughter (17 years old) of a friend. We heard about it very shortly after my friend found out.
Leadership became aware that we knew. Leadership dragged their feet. Some aspects became known to the members in bits and pieces, other aspects remained hidden. Leadership also groomed the church to not listen to the media (which was reporting things relatively accurately) – we knew the truth though.
The son was removed after a few weeks and eventually ended up in state prison for a year or two. The pastor left during that whole process.
Other leaders went to court over not reporting it.
People began leaving. We stayed longer than some. Why?
We hoped they would eventually come completely clean. We also had great relationship with many at the church.
We stopped tithing very early in the whole debacle and eventually realized things just werent going to change.
In the end we might have stayed – if one elder had left and if there were other improvements. Neither happened.
Leaving a community can be an extremely difficult thing. So much is lost in the process.
We held out until we couldn’t any longer. Should we have left sooner?
Perhaps.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
For some, the religious orgs and institutions are the hill to die on.
For others, love, truth, and justice comprise the hill to die on.
What did Jesus and His followers do?
Tough choices and high stakes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celeste,
Celeste, I appreciate hearing your reasons and struggle. May God grant you His wisdom as you seek His guidance.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It occurred to me once while reading Scripture that God told Abraham to “Go” … while his son Isaac was commanded to “Stay” … and to Isaac’s son Jacob, He said “Go back.”
Likewise, I suppose the call on each believer is different when it comes to hearing and obeying God … go, stay, or go back. If we don’t see His hand in a particular ministry – with men in control and not God, “Go” would be the appropriate response, IMO. Some of us might be in a bad situation, but hear God saying “I’m about to do something new there … Stay”. Others might miss God altogether, come to our spiritual senses, and are called to “Go back.” The tension created when we get in such snags help us to grow in Christ if we listen carefully and follow Him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“members of the church who are the “true Christ believers””
I was young and now am old. I’ve been doing church in America for over 70 years. Regardless of where I have attended, be it mini or mega, I have observed that there is always the Church within the church. I’m convinced that the great multitude who parade to their local church on a given Sunday are not “true Christ believers.” Oh, they may mouth the right words and be active in the work of the church from the pew, on elder boards, or even in the pulpit. But they don’t “know” Christ truly, they have not had an encounter with the living God, substituting traditions and teachings of men for the Main Thing. IMO, most who go to church are not ‘the’ Church. The best a believer can do is to find the Church within the church and come alongside them to pray for the rest, that God’s will would be done despite the religious noise around them. These are tough days in America for the genuine Body of Christ, struggling to identify with something they have no identity in.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Church is more than the pastor. None of the epistles were addressed to the pastor, and we read them as if they are addressed to the family of God, right? Leaving a church after decades of active membership radically changes one’s internal structure and alters one’s perspective on the new church. Dee always refers to a certain church (since left) experience as the impetus for The Wartburg Watch. Leaving church (without geographically ‘moving’) over a poor pastor pierces multiple daily relationships and most are permanently severed or reduced to a level of wariness that is too uncomfortable to manage. The “stayers” prioritize their church ‘family’ over leadership authenticity and fidelity to the Word — evil engenders wide collateral damage.
Been there and still mourn the loss.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This tension is amplified when we are caught between two passages of Scripture: “Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together” vs. “Come out from her My People and be not partakers of her sins.”
What is an individual believer to do? Seek God. Hear God. Obey God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I hope to live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I left a toxic church years ago and was glad to shake the dust off my feet. I had a friend who was conflicted but still at that church ask what he should do. I told him to do two things: Keep your eyes on the LORD & keep your eyes on the EXIT door!
Dave
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max, those are some very good comments regarding church members as well as who goes or stays and when.
Knowing how to follow God is neither learned nor lived in a vacuum.
We learn about God through being in community with other folks who are (supposedly) also following Him. We can only be in community with so many folks. Circles within circles.
We also learn about ourselves through interaction with other people.
In both cases we live and learn by how we treat, and are treated by, other folks. Hopefully in Truth and Love – which is where some difficulty comes in. OK, much difficulty.
Truth and relationship (community) are inseparably intertwined. Ideally we are learning some truth about God and truth about ourselves in the process.
Unfortunately though, community and organization are also intertwined.
If our experiences are too much colored by self and the actions of self (either our’s or other’s) we learn not-truth about God, others, and ourselves. And when organization supplants organism (community as built and expressed by a mesh of connections between many individuals) even worse things generally happen. God becomes supplanted by the organization.
Individuals are hurt by other individuals. That hurt is then magnified, spread, and made worse by the response of the organization. Now the community is being misled, hurt, and it’s existence is being threatened which brings about a ton of insecurity within it.
True believers are left to figure out how to respond largely on their own. Most likely in a vacuum because they have never had to go through anything like what they are now having to go through. They no longer know who to trust since trust has been broken by the leadership. You muddle along as best you can while trying to parse what is going on, what the truth is or might be, and what the correct response should be.
All that while trying to answer the questions of how do you protect yourself and your loved ones? How do you stand for both the truth and the community when the organization is no longer standing for either and cannot be trusted?
The community *should* stand for the individual and not the organization. However, the organization lies to the community about the situation and the community does not know up from down.
Each situation is different. In some cases it is more obvious what to do. In other cases it is far less obvious. The lies color perspective. They taint our response and the response of others. Many actions and interactions with in the community and with the organization are now fraught with peril.
In many cases these are incredibly difficult situations to try and figure out.
In all cases there are pitfalls to watch out for.
In all cases things are just such a royal mess.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Describes perfectly what is going on in much of the organized church … God has been organized out of it! God came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. The institution we call “church” is OK only if it is reaching souls for Christ, equipping them to do the work of the ministry with their individual giftings, and then enabling them to fulfill the Great Commission together. Anything else is doing church without God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I grew up in the Evangelical church, both as a missionary kid and pastor’s kid. Talk about seeing some sh!t. I’m in my late 40s now and STILL uncovering disturbing facts that were hushed up over the years. After years of seeing MANY Christians act like Satan himself, and seeing many unbelievers who acted more loving than so-called Christians, I finally left church. If a religion is hurting people, and continues to hurt people, something is very, very wrong.
I’ve hear plenty of excuses, such as “oh but they weren’t TRUE Christians,” or “they just weren’t sanctified,” or “they got into the flesh,” etc. etc. etc. even though they go through the motions and smile and sing the songs and say the prayers as the rest of us. So where does that leave us? It means you can’t actually trust the fellow Christian sitting next to you at church. It means that Christians are no different than anyone else in the world (worse actually, if they cover up sins and let predators roam freely).
Are there good, sincere Christians? Absolutely. Because there are genuinely good people in the world. There are good atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, etc. Give me a genuinely caring person, no matter how or how not they spiritually identify, any day over a toxic Christian.
NOTE: I am speaking as a former Evangelical/Word of Faith/Charismatic. I don’t know if mainline denominations are dealing with the same volume of junk that we’re witnessing play out here.
For people who decide to stay during and after these exposures, I try not to judge them. Each person has their own path. Everyone’s experiences differ. I’ve probably seen and experienced a lot more junk and toxicity than the average churchgoer, so by leaving I was escaping an abusive relationship.
Even then, leaving was MUCH more difficult than staying and doing what I always did. I had to face everything I had held to be true since I was a toddler. I knew I would lose my entire support system. I still had to do it, though, to be true to myself and do what was right for me.
I’m happy to report that I am truly at peace now. I see everyone as people, not marks or “lost,” just people. Some are good, some downright evil, most just trying to do what is right while making a living. I donate to local charities, I have a strong sense of justice and I support the fatherless, the stranger, and the widow. I’m actually living more in line with what Jesus taught now than during all my church-going years.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Yep.
The person who was violated has depths and layers of pain and confusion no one else can begin to understand. They do, in some cases, have access to resources to help. However, in so many cases they do not. So many are kept from those resources. Some by shame. Some by the organization. And some by the very community that is supposed to stand with them. Fortunately that was largely not the case with the event we went through.
And who do those who are not the actual victim(s) turn to? Therein lies the rub. Multitudes more are indirectly affected, they are also victims (not to the same degree of course). Yet there are no resources for them. And the same lies and behavior that the organization and the community employ affect them as well, just not to the same degree. However, they are, in so many cases, manipulated to do the bidding of the organization instead of the bidding of the Lord.
Once they do finally figure things out to some degree and come to some manner of “resolution” where lies their faith? How much do they engage at the next church – if there even is a next church?
I can tell you that my engagement emotionally is, well, restrained to understate it. I have found a place where I can play bass on a worship team again and I have good relationship with those individuals, but the level of openness to random folks in the church is far, far less than it once was. I don’t see that ever changing. After 10 or so years I do still have my faith. I am not sure how I would assess it though.
Great loss indeed. The leaders eviscerated a vibrant community. For quite a while I was royally and rightfully sipped off at the leaders for what they did.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
My feelings are complicated. My family attended Park Street Church for over thirty years. I found faith through Seekers. Rev. James Benson officiated my dad’s burial. When my mom couldn’t attend church in person, we joined virtually through YouTube. When I was in Boston at Park Street, I used to call her, and we would pass the peace on the cell phone. In 2023, when our family needed Park Street to be God’s hands and feet, it became evident that the church was in dire straits. I stayed as long as I could, but by the fall of 2023, I found myself becoming bitter, angry, and vindictive about the church’s treatment of our family and my mother. I resigned my membership in disgust. When a church fails to make disciples, glorify God, and minister to the Body, it ceases to be a true church of Christ. What saddened me the most wasn’t the behavior of the church leaders (the ‘senior’ minister, ‘assistant’ minister, elders, and ‘personnel’ committee), or the CCCC, but the behavior of those ‘true believers’ who stayed and, in my case, treated me as a spy, judging me for leaving. As a ‘victim,’ I found that I had no one to turn to, despite my prayers for the repentance and restoration of everyone involved. I believe that God is calling a remnant forth in our day. You cannot call a sinner to faith if you have no witness. My mother, whose name means ‘stranger,’ led my dad and our family to faith this way. You cannot sit in the pew each week, keep silent, and claim to be a true believer. That is what I see happening at Park Street and many other churches. God has warned us. He is coming again and will remove our lampstand if we fail to repent.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!” (Jeremiah 23:1-6)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
One of the things covid taught me is that the church should not be equated with any group of people who meet at any certain meeting place. And it is possible to not forsake assembling together and yet not set foot in a so called church building.
Strange it took me 70 plus years to figure that out.
Assemble? Yes! We do so by phone, by text, by out door meetings, by tv, by the internet, and out in our own front yard. We also assemble here with each other indoors.
I have been through two times when we were invested to the bone in excellent churches, only to have a wolf in sheep’s clothing come in among us as leader and we finally had to flee. But it is HARD! People you are closer to than your own extended family and that you have done life with for years suddenly tell you when you see them in the grocery store “I don’t know you, never saw you before, and don’t know your name.” Funny when only a few weeks before you were prayer partners and worked together in Bible study.
It is hard. Nobody ever could show me a place in the Bible where we are promised unicorns and sunshine.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
My knee-jerk reaction was to declare a pox upon them. However, that is, shall we say, out of my realm of purview – not to mention capability. That was best handed over to the Lord a long time ago.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
On a related note:
Robert Morris’ son, James Morris, preparing to plant his own church after Gateway Church exit
https://www.christianpost.com/news/james-morris-preparing-to-plant-his-own-church.html
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Why do they stay?
I think that a lot of it is fear driven.
Fear of being driven out of the particular ‘church’ club, and fear that you (generic you) will ultimately be consigned to hell for not obeying those authority figures that God has allegedly set over you. (Ephesians 4:11-13)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I am uncomfortable with the term true believer. How do you define this term. What is it that makes someone a true believer and someone a nominal believer. Is it not possible that true believers can be also protectors and enablers of abuse, believing that it is a sin to attack the leadership. Life is too complex for such binary definitions.
Also staying or leaving is a complex sociological and psychological process. A person may have deep ties within the community. They may have family and friends who attend. They may be involved in one or more of the programs run by the church. The church may be the place they formed their faith and committed to following Jesus.
There is also the tendency when confronted with contradictory evidence to undergo a process to explain away the evidence. This process of secondary elaborations is common across all cultures.
Life is complicated.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Afterburne,
“Knowing how to follow God is neither learned nor lived in a vacuum.”
+++++++++++
hmmm… i dunno… i learn about God’s direction and voice through trial and error. like with a radio dial, trying it out til it gets less fuzzy and more clear.
and if i can’t find it, i just keep going using everything i know. clarity comes back at some point through that trial and error.
a lifetime endeavor.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter,
“Why do they stay?”
++++++++++
sentimentality… friends…..
but moreso, they’ve been conditioned:
-to believe that a desire to leave is satan and demons trying to distract them what God’s doing
-to distrust their own intuition and common sense
-to deny themselves their sincere desires let alone genuine needs when they are at odds with the church mission (but also in general)
-to pressure themselves with the mandate to persevere and not miss God’s best
(quite the panoply of manipulative horsh|t)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Grahame Gee,
It is complicated and difficult enough without situations like this – which raise the complication and difficulty by a couple of orders of magnitude at least – more depending on which role one finds themself in.
That said, life can be so very much worse – and is for so many people in the world. Said the person who has not been a direct victim of stuff like this – “only” a collateral victim.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You can say that again!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
On a related note, PRRI released its 2023 PRRI Census of American Religion at https://www.prri.org/research/census-2023-american-religion/ .
The general takeaway is that over the last several decades, ‘nones’ have increased at about .5% per year.
While it is not covered in this study, the most common reason people give for leaving the church is sexual abuse and the measures churches have taken to cover up the abuse.
My, admittedly antidotal, experience is that individuals and families don’t always immediately leave a church during a time of crisis. Instead, they are less local to join a new church after a move. This is particularly true of young adults without years of membership habits.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Another reason people stay is the Sunk-Cost Fallacy, defined as the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The Phil Keaggy song “True Believer” is now running through my head. Wow, this was one of the best discussions on here. Everyone: great thoughts and thanks for sharing. I have a dear friend who just had to stay at the church we left because they were her friends first and she wants to “take back her church” so she is fighting to get that pastor out. We were done. We left. Hubby and I are now of the same mind about church: no memberships and no full tithe going to any church. We came real close to giving up on going to church all together.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Scripture refers to a “true believer” as one who has received the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God into their hearts, repented of their sins, who faithfully trusts in Jesus, resulting in a new creation (John 1:12; 2 Corinthians 5:17)
Finding “new creations” in church is like looking for a rare and endangered species, a needle in a haystack, a precious treasure buried in the field. I’ve known a great multitude of church members in my 70+ years of doing church in America, but few who demonstrated they were indeed “new creations.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“If you left, how do you feel about those who were true believers who decided to stay?” I left Gateway in the summer of 2016 after one too many MAGAfied, Christian-nationalist-flavored guest preachers. Before that, I had been a auto-tither (my tithes were sent in automatically from every paycheck) for years, a home-based Bible study participant, and weekly attender. I feel much the same way about the true believers who stayed as they felt about me after I stopped attending. I have come to think that church relationships are highly contingent on things like attendance, participation, and like-mindedness. Stop attending, participating, or thinking like everyone else, and pffft, “church” friends disappear faster than rainclouds in the desert in July. People in church whom I thought of as “close friends” drifted out of sight because I was not at the church building every week to cultivate the relationship.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
A form of “shunning” that is heartbreaking. I’ve experienced it. It becomes a toss up of how much misery you want to go through by going vs. staying. In my case, I could no longer justify remaining when the errors in belief and practice of new church leaders became apparent. “Friends” remained thinking things would get better, the bad boys would move on, and everything would return to the “good ole days.” They never did, so they adjusted to the aberrations in faith and remain there to this day. Choosing between the blessing and a bowl of soup can be tough for some folks.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I would argue that some stay to repair what was broken. If the problem has been removed then it is possible rebuild in the right way. It is a redemption process. Christ did not abandon me the many times I failed him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sometimes when you leave a church you find that the door to future membership has now been locked from the inside. I have “membered up” five times at four different churches. Now I have been a “free radical” member of the “divisible” church for fifteen years. I have been a faithful attendee at various churches, but most require some pledge of membership that I, as a spiritual abuse survivor, am unwilling to verbalize.
Staying has the advantage of retaining and deepening Christian relationships but perhaps with a loss of spiritual growth. Staying at an unhealthy church also comes with the risk of further abuse.
The Bible stresses Christian unity and forgiveness. We are called to assemble together. The Bible also says “Come out of her my people.” Jesus says the sheep will not follow the voice of the false shepherd.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
When church leaders threw their once-blind member out of church for giving testimony that Jesus had healed him, Jesus went looking for him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I still tithe: 2.5% to church, 2.5% to the local food pantry, 2.5% to an after-school academic club at a local elementary school, and 2.5% to a local concert in the park series at a local park.
All are equally important, in my mind, programs to make our community whole.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I bet you’ve learned a thing or two since then.
You’re not alone, I spent 10 wasted years in the Calvary Chapel cult.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
IMO, believers need to revisit the whole concept of “tithing” … just what is Biblical and what is not? … tradition of men or Holy Spirit direction? … local church vs. worldwide church? … as the Lord leads or as church leaders specify?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
People stay because the music and teaching are “good” and they truly believe God is blessing the church. The problems aren’t transparent (especially if you don’t dig for the truth) and bad news is shared in little snippets and presented as a spiritual attack. Often there is a biblical illiteracy which prevents people from seeing the red flags. I think congregational size and the Sunday “experience” are confused with Gods special blessing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeffrey Chalmers,
“For years I felt the “Weight” of not being this super Evangelist, in the specific WAY THEY taught us. It was rammed down my throat for a long time….
But as I grow old, and participate on TWW, I am finding my calling to just call for people to follow Christ example.. not pray this “prayer”, or be dunked three time ( i.e. a single dunking not good enough, etc, etc, etc)….”
++++++++++++++++++++++
i appreciated your comment.
i think to be alive is to be constantly reforming one’s conclusions.
not necessarily the fundamental shape, but like clay on the potter’s wheel.
the wheel is spinning (we’re alive) and so is the clay,
and there is force coming onto it to shape it – hands, fine tools (daily experiences of observation and thought in response – we are sentient beings).
it’s constantly changing shape in small ways in response.
perhaps there will be a very big change at some point.
but for the most part, the changes are small.
but it’s never static, it’s never not changing in response to the force coming at it.
the longer i live the less tolerance i have for nonsense, for all the extras. for all the toppings and coatings and condiments on my tri tip (let’s say). and all the complicated processes and fussy kitchen gadgets.
i’m even probably supposed to pack on chocolate chips, cookie crumbles, gummy bears, 3 bright colored drizzles, and whipped cream.
all that’s needed is salt, pepper, & heat. (& horseradish)
for my religion, all that’s needed is treating people the way i want to be treated. and making God my business partner in the business of life.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
+++++++++++++
What is spiritual growth? As you see it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
There would be no megachurch in America without a skilled “praise and worship” team with a charismatic “worship leader.” Most folks come for the music not the message. They love to soak in the experience of whining guitars, loud drums, 7-11 songs … big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans. “Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, Step Right Up to the Greatest Show on Earth!” shouts the carnival barker.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anyone who has journeyed through the American church for any length of time has learned a thing or two or more! I was young and now am old and I’ve never seen the institutional church in such a mess! Remember when preachers used to preach the Gospel and the people of God prayed?!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Four-five years in the fringes of Koinonia House Christian Fellowship (another set of overripe Jesus People that didn’t have CC’s staying power) and that was damaging enough.
Who will replace the years those CHRISTIAN locusts have eaten?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
My own church (Romish Popery) recommends if you’re a tither, no more than half your tithe should go to your local parish and the rest should be spread around other charities/organizations like dfarning’s tithe breakdown above.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Is that the same outfit (k-house) that the late Chuck Missler was honcho of?
Man, could he (Missler) ever put some spin on Bible stuff.
He was the Indiana Jones of all things Bible.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chuck Missler: A legend in his own mind. Don’t let his plagiarism fool you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
2 Peter 1:3-17 gives a good summary of Christian spiritual growth. Having participated in the divine nature, it is becoming more like Jesus.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dale Rudiger,
“it is becoming more like Jesus”
+++++++++++++
seems to me we have a caricature of Jesus, based on what we see in movies and art.
and based mostly on what Paul has to say, who never met Jesus (except for the super fantastic supernatural interruption on the road to damascus).
it’s a nice idealized portrait. but it’s not the real human being / God man.
from reading about Jesus through 1st hand accounts, it seems he was:
-friendly
-self-confident
-confrontational when needed
-maybe sarcastic to some degree
-gracious
-generous
-compassionate
-valued the individual
-concerned about the group, but not at the expense of the individual
-no nonsense
-practical
-wouldn’t suffer fools or nonsense (such as nincompoop religious leaders and their meaningless & destructive rules)
-not immune from exasperation
-willing to sacrifice rather than compromise
-courageous, tough
what do others thing? what is Jesus like?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max,
Agree. And people will say they were spiritually moved by the music and a skilled musician will say it was just a chord change.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-egY6t9BMGI&t=4s
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max,
LOL it made me cry because it was too close to reality.
Thanks.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
He was, and is everything that we are.
That’s the beauty of it.
He took part in us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter,
agreed. i think it’s the coolest thing. (understatement)
he knows what it’s like to tell a joke that falls flat.
he knows what it’s like to feel self-conscious & vulnerable.
he knows what it’s like to feel physically ill & have physical and emotional/psychological pain.
…i mean, i could do this all day, here.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’ve been really enjoying the conversations generated by Dee’s OP. 🙂
No offence to anyone intended….I know there are good people and good churches out there. 🙂
I’ve only recently realized that, much to my regret, I won’t be going back to a bricks-and-mortar church….the damage done by the people in the churches I’ve attended far outweighs the good. And when combined with C-PTSD (and a ton of other things), I’m just not willing to put up with that kind of abuse anymore.
I much prefer to donate the little I can where I choose to, rather than to a bunch of hypocrites. And I do the little I can, when I can….even if it’s only a smile….or a kind and gentle word….
I “do church” on TWW. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
So could I.
No convoluted, complicated ‘theology’, just Jesus of Nazareth, the real deal, the real McCoy, almighty God, born of woman…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Now, if the American church would just get that right again!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Idunno, Max.
I’ve experienced how “just Jesus of Nazareth, the real deal, the real McCoy, almighty God, born of woman…” go sour, too.
Like the theme of Monty Python’s Life of Brian, people can screw up anything good.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
From personal experience with fanboys,
A Legend in His Own Mind is all too often a running bad joke in everyone else’s.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
researcher,
researcher,
I appreciate your viewpoint. I’ve seen some commenters in the past (I’ve been away for some years) who insist that one is not truly obedient/is persisting in sin or cheating oneself of the “real” or “full experience” by not physically gathering together with fellow believers (yes, I know there is a single verse in a very large tome that mentions that—so why are people not building fences around their rooftops anymore, I wonder?).
However, I believe the Creator meets us where we are, maybe sort of like Jesus met the woman at the well. Jesus warned us against whitewashed tombs and Pharisees and religiosity. He didn’t keep going back to the same building every week to preach, but he ministered wherever he happened to be, whether a hilltop or garden or highways and byways or a party or even a boat on the water. He also said, “Follow me.”
Buildings and carefully scripted worship services do not grow—or even preserve—people’s faith. Walking in faith will look different for different people.
I think that frightens people who want a “safe” prescription to follow, a checklist to guide them, a formula for “success”. I was once one of them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
That.
(The bold was done by me.)
That.
That.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
But that conflicts with a lot of churches’ (and Christians’) One Size Fits All mania.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Joining the discussion late. I would add that many have a lot invested in the church they attend. This investment includes both time (years sometimes) and money.
When one has this type of “investment” it can be hard to walk away. There is also a reluctance for someone to admit they have been duped by a leader even after the leader has been exposed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You do realize that ALL modern music both secular and Christian just uses 4 chords:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I
FYI: For those who want to know, the four chords at the I, V, vi, and IV chords of any key. The Roman numerals representing the note in the key’s scale (key of C Major would be C Major Scale). The lower case means a minor chord. So, in the key of C major, it would be C, G, Am, F. In the key of G major, it would be G, D, Em, C. In D major it would be D, A, Bm, G. It’s all in that order.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
NO.
As far as I could tell, a completely-independent “splinter church” that (like Calvary Chapel) coalesced from the Jesus People Movement of the late Sixties. No actual cult leader (except for an absentee Hal Lindsay), but Groupthink among 20-something Elders took up the slack.
Had a “cult comppond” of a couple old Craftsman houses in Whittier CA with underfloor crawlspaces excavated into dirt-walled basement “barracks” with stacked bunks and a one-story fourplex in another part of town that had doorways cut through bedroom closets connecting the four units. Ran a janitorial/maid service (why is it always a cleaning service with these types?).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sunk Cost Fallacy, the con man’s best friend.
Get the marks/suckers so emotionally involved in the con that they can’t back out, because backing out will mean admitting to themselves (and everyone else) that they got conned. The suckers will enthusiastically rally to defend the con man, even when they know he’s taking them to the cleaners.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. The type example of this is the “Heirs of Francis Drake” scam of around 100 years ago, where the suckers rallied around the con man and became his most fanatical defenders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Hartzell