
Jupiter’s Magnificent Swirling Clouds-NASA
“Now about those ghosts. I’m sure they’re here and I’m not half so alarmed at meeting up with any of them as I am at having to meet the live nuts I have to see every day.” Bess Truman
This is not the type of psychiatrist that I am talking about. (If you watched the film, you will get my joke.)
The problem: Do we know what Steven Berger believes now?
The story of Steven Berger and his meeting with his dead son has been circulating for some time. For those of you, like me, who want to understand what he believes or claims to have seen, they have their task cut out for them. The odd thing about reading books is this. What happens if the original book gets reprinted and some passages disappear without explanation? For purposes of this post, I borrowed, through Kindle Unlimited, this copy of Have Heart, Bridging the Gulf between Heaven and Earth.
As I read the book, I realized that things may have changed. Or have they? Let me try to walk you through this mess.
Who is Steven Berger?
Grace Chapel
Berger’s background is difficult to pin down. We know he served as a pastor of Grace Chapel in Franklin, TN, a church he founded. It had ties to the Calvary Chapel movement. Here is what I found on their website. There is not much written about Berger’s history. My friend, Eric Bonetti, and I saw no information about Berger prior to his time at Grace Chapel, so we don’t know if he has a formal theological teaching.
In 1994, Steve & Sarah Berger, along with 3 other families, moved from Southern California to Franklin, TN to plant Grace Chapel. Services began at Hillsboro School and continued there for nearly a decade. On Palm Sunday in 2003, Grace Chapel moved to its current location on Southall Rd.
In January 2021, Pastor Steve completed a three-year long transition out of leadership in the church.
Rob Rogers is the Senior Pastor at Grace Chapel.
The mission of Grace Chapel is to follow Jesus, be changed by Jesus, and live on mission with Jesus.
ASI
Berger left the church to start a group known as Ambassadors Services International. The website address is interesting: https://steveberger.org/about/. There is no question that this is his baby, and he is in charge. He went from Nashville to DC, where he is teaching lawmakers.
Pastor, author and speaker Steve Berger is known for his straight talk in dealing with various hot-topic cultural issues that many pastors avoid. In 2021, he founded Ambassador Services International with his wife, Sarah. He serves on the Executive and Pastoral Advisory Boards for Promise Keepers International, and the Jerusalem Prayer Breakfast Board. Whether preaching or writing, in great joy or pain, Steve longs to be a proclaimer of the grace and hope that Jesus came to offer. Since June of 1987, he has been married to Sarah, the love of his life, and together, they have four beautiful children and four grandchildren.
Does he have ties to the Christian Supremacy and Reconstructionism movement?
It is said he has ties to the Christian Supremacy and Reconstructionism movements. According to an article in Medium: The Binding of Grace Chapel: How Steve Berger Sacrificed His Church On The Altar Of Authoritarianism,
Around 2014 he first hosted sermons by Amir Tsarfati, a far-right Christian Zionist, who was soon followed by Dr. Michael L. Brown, a Messianic Jew with a raging hatred for LGBT people. In 2018 Berger was first invited to the National Prayer Breakfast, and now sits on the board of the Jerusalem prayer breakfast, both linked to shadowy political pressure group “Fellowship International”.
…Since then Berger has started preaching a dogma of Christian Supremacy, Dominionism, and Reconstructionism. For those blissfully unaware of these theological concepts, Dominionism is an evangelical movement trying to take dominion of the United States, placing influential Christian leaders in strategic areas of public life like government, culture, and economy. Reconstructionism, while it is typically disavowed by even the more extreme Evangelicals, is a highly influential school of thought that advocates the reconstruction of society under Biblical Law according to the interpretation of the preeminent writer of the genre, RJ Rushdoony. According to the controversial author, that includes for example the stoning of homosexuals, “loose women” and unruly children.
As Berger’s political beliefs are inextricably linked to his religious ones, and vice versa, it’s only logical then that his religious adherents, the Bergerite splinter of Grace Chapel, share not only his religion but also his political positions, proving the loyalty that has been demanded of them yet again. Among his adherents are the Governor and First Lady of Tennessee, Bill and Maria Lee, State Senator Jack Johnson, his wife, Judge Deanna Johnson, and real estate tycoon and Republican megadonor Reese Smith III. He also has close ties to Senators Marsha Blackburn and Bill Hagerty, former Senator Bob Corker and former CIA Director and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. Of late Berger has been spotted on telegram, a messaging app, soliciting prayers for meetings with congressmen in DC. Grace Chapel declined to comment on whether Berger’s ideologies are shared by other members of the church.
According to The Binding of Grace Chapel: How Steve Berger Sacrificed His Church On The Altar Of Authoritarianism.
…when Berger’s son Josiah died in a car crash, Sarah and Steve Berger took a turn for the worse. The pastor started honing a decidedly more right-wing edge, which now seems to have gotten completely out of control. While he was always in line with typical Evangelical conservatives after his son’s death Berger’s practice shifted. Two years later, when he and his wife published their book “Have Heart” about coming to terms with the death of their son, Berger was criticized by church leaders in the Calvary Chapel association for what they saw as necromancy. In the book, Berger describes praying through his son, among other unorthodox practices.
Their teen son, Josiah, died, and the pain is so great that they appear to redesign the tenets of the faith to ease their pain.
I want to be clear about something. It is the most painful thing in the world to lose your child. My heart goes out to them. When one’s faith is tested, one can discover just how effective one’s faith is. Does one cling to the historical faith, lose it, or is the pain so great that one must redesign Christianity to fit one’s need for immediate gratification?
Let me say this upfront. I do not believe that Steve and Sarah Berger were able to accept and integrate their son’s death healthily. This can be dangerous. They are leaders in their peculiar movement. When they change, they influence others to change. People get hurt if folks have not been carefully tutored in what the faith, once given to all, is and isn’t. The ones who get hurt the most are the Bergers.
Given that I can find out little about their theological training, if any, it is harder for me to find a specific causation for this “new thing or this “special dispensation” that they seem to claim they have been given. Although I believe their perspective on their “new revelation” must be corrected, I think we should do so with an understanding of their great pain. I hope they have consulted thoughtful psychiatrists and psychologists to help them weed through the mess they have created. I have even more concerns about their perspectives on reconstructionism. Still, I try to steer clear of political nonsense, especially the type that involves an indelible tie between the US and the Old Testament. Perhaps you can convince me that it is a topic worth discussing.
AnglicanWatch describes what happened.
Our story begins on Tuesday, August 9, 2009, when Josiah Berger, often called “Siah” by his family, kissed his mother on the cheek and left the family home to catch up with a friend at a local burger joint.
Sometime around 11:00 PM that evening, Josiah was in a one-car accident.
Later that night, a call came through from Vanderbilt Medical Center, telling the Bergers that their son had been in a terrible accident.
The family says they know little about the details of the accident but state that Josiah’s body was perfectly intact–the only issue was a closed head injury, resulting in swelling of his brain.
Not surprisingly, the Bergers, along with many others, prayed for Josiah. But their prayers were to no avail, and later that week, exactly on Josiah’s 19th birthday, the family decided to withdraw life support on the basis that Josiah had no meaningful brain activity.
The family made the difficult decision to withdraw life support and donate his organs, as he had signed up to do. My heart breaks for them at this point, but their theology immediately begins to change. I found this incident in the book. Apparently, they believe that this dream meant that Jesus and Josiah had a discussion, and God gave Josiah the ability to decide if he would live or die. Josiah chose to die. Remember, this is a dream of a friend that the Bergers turn into a theological moment. Jesus lets us decide when to die??
As Josiah lay dying in the hospital, a friend, Salad, had a dream that Jesus came into the room and had a conversation with Josiah, which resulted in Josiah walking out of the room with Him. The narrative now shifts in real time to his parents, who said:
“our son was reasoning with his Heavenly father. Would it be best to return to his body or begin a new adventure in the heavenly realm?T here was a battle going on in that hodpital room and we believe that Josiah heard his dad’s voice saying “Siah, make the right decisions.
We beleive with all our hearts that Jesus laid out the entire plan to our son.”You can go back to your family and friends or you can go with Me. I’ll take care of your folks, and I’ll use you for great things.”
I see and speak to dead people.
One must first understand their premise to understand what the Bergers are saying. What is his premise regarding job descriptions for the dearly departed saints? Go to mm.2:19-3:24.
According to this video, Berger says a great cloud of witnesses surrounds us. Jesus saw Moses and Elijah in His time of need. Therefore, we need to be open to the reality that they are there to help us in our time of need. Warning: Never take a verse in the Bible and make it into a “new thing.” Throughout my reading, Berger assumes that God is teaching us something new. Does anyone know if he ever had formal theological training?
Dreams or reality
The Bergers believe in a thing called “God nods,” which they claim is:
A God nod is affirmation and direction.
…It’s God saying “Check this out.”
In reading their book, God’s nods often made a dream sound like some reality.
Berger claims he is Scriptural.
p. 94: Berger claims he is not channeling, seances, or mediums trying to contact the dead. He knows enough of His Bible to understand that he is skating on thin ice. He wants to reassure his listeners that he is not doing anything unScriptural.
Josiah comes to church and is seen by Pastor Jim, “Who also saw dead people,” Sterling.
pp. 98-99 Pastor Jim Sterling recounts this encounter with Josiah at a Wednesday evening prayer and worship service.
The next thing i knew, Josiah came into the sancturay. It wasn’t like he appeared ther. It was a sense of hims coming into the aisle, and he got down one one knew and bent to speak into my ear, “Way worth it, mr. Joim.” Then as quickly as he came, he left. He didn’t disappear. It was a sense of him leaving the sanctuary.
It was as Josiah as Josiah could be. He was dressed in a white T-shirt and white knee-length shorts, and his hair was white.
…I stood up and went oveer to my wife and sai “Josiah was just here.”
It is my understanding that a few years later, he said that he thought he saw a demon instead. He had left Grace Chapel by this point. I wonder if he was pushed to say he saw Josiah while serving with Berger. Instead of a God nod, was this a God-shove by Berger?
Berger claimed this incident was real by stating,
It shows he is happy there and it demonstrates his contninued presence in not only our lives but the lives of our friends.
Can you imagine if Sterling had said he disagreed?
Josiah kisses his sister.
PP114 Destiny’s God Nod. Destiny is their youngest child, and she never lies…
“never” makes things up. She is a “pretty literal girl.
…(Berger) immediately agred it was Josiah.
…She was sleeping i nthe early morning and felt someone lie down beside her and kiss her twice on the cheek.
…I didn’t need to open my eyes-I just knew because in the hospital I kissed him the very same way.
Sarah demands permission from God to speak with Josiah regularly.
According to Trust Hirst in this post: Could Sarah Berger Know Who Killed Grant Solomon? Quotes from the same book provided some helpful insights.
Sarah describes how she first begged for permission to speak to Josiah regularly and keep him a part of their daily lives.
“Siah, I want to know what you are doing. I need to be involved with your life even now, even in Heaven. I know that you are doing kingdom work, and I want to be involved in what you are doing. Father, I know that You know what is best for me to know, and so because of Your great mercy, I am asking You this question: “What is Josiah doing now?” I believe that, after nineteen years with my child, You wouldn’t say, “No, Sarah, you may not know.” That is not who I have known You to be all these twenty-five years. And so, I am asking.”
Sarah planned to make Josiah an “active” part of their family life.
The post also describes Sarah Berger’s wish to make Josiah an active part of their family. I read this book portion but wanted to show another person’s perspective.
Throughout the book, it often seems to be Sarah who’s speaking the most about their unconventional arrangement after Josiah’sdeath.
From day one, we have communicated to our three kids on earth that Josiah is still a vital part of our family and, as God allows, still aware of things that go on in our home. We want all of us to continue to have relationship with Siah right up until the day that we are face-to-face in Heaven with him. We’re not saying that Siah is appointed to be with us every moment, but when he is, we know that he delights in the fact that we share our hearts with him. Proving again that Siah is aware of things going on here on earth, we received the following God Nod: I (Sarah) remember a day a few months ago when our sixteen-year-old son, Cody, asked Steve if he could go mudding in the Jeep. The Jeep was previously Josiah’s, and it was always said that when Siah went to college, the Jeep would then become Cody’s. The bog that Cody went to mud in is located within a short distance from our house, so I watched as he ventured off for the first time, four-wheel drive activated and ready to conquer. As I watched Cody drive away, I could hear Siah saying in my spirit, “Cody was always better at those things than me. I am proud of him.” We can’t really explain it, but it was so quick and so random, I just knew it was Siah. The Lord once again knew what would touch Cody’s heart—an encouraging word from his older brother. Later that day as Cody and I visited in Josiah’s room, I shared what I had experienced as I watched him track through the mud. It brought a tear to his eye and joy to his heart. We have explained to the kids that Siah cannot read our minds; only the Lord can do that. But it must make Siah so happy to see that we get it. We know he can see us, hear us, and even be involved, not only in our lives but also in the lives of his friends. We are continually hearing of Siah coming to friends in dreams (and we’ve shared a few in this book). The dreams are incredibly profound and always prove God’s Word, point to the glory of God, and compel us to get closer to Jesus. Be on the lookout for God Nods in your own life.
God made a “special exception for the Berger family” to be able to communicate with their dead son.
I include this video for one reason only. Former Calvary Chapel pastor Chris Lawson spoke with Berger, expressing his concern about many rumors floating around that the Bergers were regularly talking with their dead son. I cannot vouch for the entire video, but it provided more evidence that something is off about Berger’s regular tete-a-tetes with his son. View the opening minute, which is repeated later in the video.
He claimed that he believed that God made a special exception for the Berger family. We are indeed in communication with out son Josiah.
Finally
It is my understanding that Promisekeepers features Steve Berger at their rallies. This rather astonishes me. My friend Eric Bonetti queried if Promisekeeper may have convinced him to remove some of the more startling “exceptions” for communications with Josiah found in Steve and Sarh Berger’s book. Does the current book differ in many respects from the earlier edition?
I do not believe that Promisekeepers or any legislator in DC should feature the Bergers until it is determined if they have received significant counseling regarding the loss of their son, Josiah. The death of a child can profoundly affect the life of a family. It should not, however, turn 2000 years of Christian history and theology on its head. I know they want to hear from their son. One day, they will hear from him in eternity. For now, we suffer the pain of death. Until there is proof that the departed are regularly making their way back and forth to earth dressed in cool shorts and tees, perfectly white, of course, this witness must be placed on the back burner. Not only do I not find evidence of it in Scripture (no, Bergers, you are not Jesus with Moses and Elijah), then one must be concerned that it is psychiatric in origin, a fake to make lots of money in books, or something more sinister.
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I think this first started out as a coping mechanism, but given how much I got the story of the witch of Endor pounded into my head over the years, I really wonder how they worked around the very serious prohibition on contacting the dead. After 15 years (yes, it’s been 15 years), this couple (maybe their children too) have had a lot of time to structure a whole dogmatic edifice in their minds where this “contact” is allowed.
I compare it to an incident that happened in the last hours of my father’s life. Not exactly the same, and I won’t go into any detail, but what I got out of it was that is that the world of the dead is not our world and when it’s time, we need to let our loved ones go. And after they’re gone, don’t try to draw them back. Remember them, but move on and build on the good things you learned from them and pass those good things along to people you might not have met yet.
I’m finding the idea that someone in that family (the mom) is channeling her son rather mindboggling. I do believe they should seek out counseling because this is unhealthy. It’s time to move on.
All of this is, of course, my personal opinion.
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“Law according to the interpretation of the preeminent writer of the genre, RJ Rushdoony. According to the controversial author, that includes for example the stoning of homosexuals, “loose women” and unruly children.”
WHAT???? Anyone who wants to do that belongs in a mental asylum. Or prison, since they probably abuse their wife and kids.
I really can’t stand the so-called “Christians” who are enamored of tyrannical and harsh Old Testament laws.
Jesus FREED us from those horrible Old Testament laws for a reason.
And indeed Hebrews 10 warns us that we face destruction if we revert to pharisaic legalism and thus “shrink back” from the FREEDOM that Jesus Christ bought us with His Blood.
The Old Testament laws are abhorrent and repulsive, in my opinion.
In my view, anyone who wants to impose Old Testament laws on society is a dangerous megalomaniacal wannabe dictator. Such individuals probably already tyrannize and abuse their own wives and children.
“Christian Zionist”
Why does it seem like every “Christian” zionist is a manipulative malignant narcissist? Robert Morris and Mike Bickle are well-known examples, but there are plenty of others.
Could it be that espousing an evil ideology causes a person to turn evil themselves?
Or are evil people attracted to evil ideologies such as “Christian” zionism?
For a theologically sound refutation of the heretical, antichrist, depraved, evil theology of “Christian” zionism, here is an excellent video from NT Wright:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR1EKXnJn7s
“Christian” zionists delight in gleefully going around telling everyone the LIE that you will go to hell if you aren’t a zionist like they are.
As I said above, just about every single “Christian” zionist seems to be a manipulative malignant narcissist.
“Christian” zionism is a heretical antichrist cancer on Christianity, a cancer that seems to have begun roughly in the 1960s, which coincidentally is also the time when the modern era of independent stand-alone evangelical churches led by ambitious, fame-seeking, authoritarian, narcissistic, grifter charlatan pastors began.
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I agree with you, Dee H.
I was very close to my “Papaw” ….. his little shadow when I was a small one….. his helper when I got bigger. He was a huge positive influence on me…… taught me a lot in the few short years we had.
When he became gravely ill, I spent every night at my grandparents house to help my “Mamaw” with him.
I was with “Papaw” when he died….. on his birthday, the day after Thanksgiving. I was 12 years old.
For 12 years after his death, he would “visit” me in my dreams every year around Thanksgiving. In my dreams, he would take me to town in his mule-drawn farm wagon, show me how things were when he was a child, compare the present with how things were when he was my age each year, and make predictions about all of the change that I would live to see.
Strange….. the dreams stopped the year I almost died in a car accident.
(Just a silly FYI: Those mules pulling that wagon in my dreams?…. Yeah, the were same mules Papaw had when I was small….. the same wagon, too. Very vivid dreams.)
I can still see those “dream” images in my mind. And from the very start, I found comfort, reassurance, and peace from his “visits”. But, even as a child, I could distinguish between dreams and reality.
I never confused the two.
(I have had dreams about a handful of others who have left this world, but only one dream per person. I don’t think that is abnormal.)
I can’t help but wonder if the Bergers might have an ulterior motive, but I suspect more so they have allowed their “dreams” to infect and possess their minds, and alter their lives because they could not grieve, just could not let go of their child who’s life had just barely begun…….
An out-of-control escape from reality???
Their situation is a total reverse of me and my Papaw.
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Same here. I wonder. In the end, how’s that working for them?
Lots of dogmatic edifices are conjured up in the minds of so-called spiritual men and women leaders, who give their conjured edifices godnames and godterms in their godstories. In the end, their cult is simply a capital business, taking the name of God in vain.
Likewise Simon in Acts 8 tried to purchase the power of the Holy Spirit from Peter and John, thus giving rise to the term simony as the buying or selling of sacred things or ecclesiastical office.
Every time a so-called gift of the Holy Spirit collects a paycheck for that gift, what is really going on? The 18 gifts, GIFTS, of the Holy Spirit are listed in Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, and Eph 4. Who pays for a gift? The Holy Spirit doesn’t collect money for His gifts. Why do Christians pay for gifts of the Holy Spirit? In the New Testament, the Apostles were supplied room and board as they travelled but they never collected money or paychecks for gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Regarding dogmatic edifices conjured up in the minds of religious leaders or religious people in general, Watchman Nee documents this practice in his book, “Spiritual Reality or Obsession.” It’s obsession. God is Transcendent outside of our limitations of time, space, and material laws. But as Christians, people with faith in our Transcendent God, that doesn’t mean we Jesus People can just run around making stuff up willy-nilly. Making stuff up with godterms and godstories invites doom with alienation from God Himself. Not enviable. Sad.
King Saul consulted a witch to speak with the dead and thus sealed his doom. The obsessed using God’s name in vain likewise seal their doom. Not enviable. Sad.
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Why it’s so important to read the entire Bible for oneself.
With regard to the religious leaders in this post and their Talking With the Dead Cult, personally I always have my Bible in hand when
1. Dealing with any religious leader.
2. Dealing with any religious theology.
3. Praying. (Helps to stay on track, grounded in reality and away from obsessions.)
The Bible has a wonderful way of correcting any biblical wild goose chase off on a tangent.
We used the Thompson Chain Reference Bible to cross reference before we had the Internet.
Nowadays, the Internet is great for crosschecking all the stuff that goes on with religious leaders and in churches. God bless the Internet, which has far better uses than porn and schmuck. The Internet facilitates the global church. By the way, everything published by the Vatican is free and available on the Internet. No paywall, no phone paychecks, no fees.
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No paywall, no paychecks, no fees.
No idea how the word “phone” got in there. LOL.
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OK, I have to take issue here. *Summoning* deceased relatives is necromancy. *Seeing* them isn’t necessarily (unless you summoned them).
There’s this whole 1.38-billion-member Church that believes in the intercession of the saints and prayers for the souls in Purgatory. There’s another 225-million-member church that also believes in the intercession of the saints. Together these churches comprise nearly 2 billion people. Evangelicalism doesn’t define the whole of Christian reality.
That said, all that Dominionism nonsense is completely insane.
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Actually?
I think it’s a cleverly constructed slot-machine with which they win every time they pull the handle.
Books, speaking engagements, you name it, and all tax-free to boot.
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I find these people terribly misguided. One of the great solaces of the Christian faith is that we know where believers go when they die and that those left behind will see them again someday. We don’t need to conjure them up!
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Who am I gonna’ call?
Why Dan Akroyd and Bill Murray of course.
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IMHO, at this point in time, Evangelicalism seems to veer further and further from reality.
IMHO, numbers don’t do it for me; numbers are not the bottom line. The mob, in great numbers, voted to have Jesus executed.
I do believe in praying for and with (but not to) our brothers and sisters who came and went before us, intercession. In Hebrews 12, “Since we are surrounded by, such a great crowd of witnesses …” refers to the Saints before us in Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith. So I believe that the Bible backs this up. John Henry Newman wrote of this about 200 years ago when he compared Catholicism and Protestantism. Thoughtful guy.
The cult described in this post seems to be interacting with the dead way beyond any biblical practice.
For those who are triggered by the Bible, I get it. I write about how the 5th Commandment was used to justify Christian incest in the novel, “Legal Grounds.”
One target in the novel proclaims she will definitely choose Hell since Heaven is obviously one grand orgy where powerful Christian leaders target young women 24/7 in complete freedom with God’s blessing and approval (for the men, not the women).
The other target reads the entire Bible for herself and with God’s help, she escapes the Christian cult.
The Bible is used to justify anything. By the Enemy and his henchmen followers in “Christian” cult-ures. It’s wise to beware and be aware.
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SPECIAL DISPENSATION(TM)?
There’s a story about author Arthur Conan-Doyle (a Spiritualist), that if you said you were channeling his dead son and had a message from him, he’d believe anything you told him. (This was a big sticking point between Doyle and Houdini.) I can’t help but think we have a similar dynamic going on here, except it’s entirely in the family instead of an organized Spiritualism with an outside medium/channeler.
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There is a Happy Clappy Joy Joy cult among Christians that will NOT allow them to grieve at all, only Rejoice in Victory(TM). (Chrsitian Monist has two horror stories about Always Victorious Christians who lost their sons in bloody accidents and had to stay Victorious and SMILING in the Joy Joy Joy of The LORD – and what that did to them.
It’s why funerals turned into Homoegoing Celebrations with everybody SMIIIIIILING and Don’t You Dare NOT Smiiiiile and Deny the Victory!
If that was the Berger’s background and church culture, this whole thing becomes a lot more understandable.
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These days if you leave politix out of the evangelical conversation then you’re not looking at the whole story.
The church and democracy do not mix. No one voted in the bible and everything was either a theocracy run by priests or a kingdom run by anointed.
The idea a liberal democracy much less a constitutional monarchy was anathema to most if not all ancient people. Even Martin Luther found it repugnant that peasants should have any rights. The whole religion is predicated in divine right to rule.
So why are we surprised that for biblical fundamentalists, dominionism makes great sense. In my experience even moderate evangelicals are sympathetic to Christian Nationalism.
How many of the people reading this would vote for an avowed atheist?
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Same with that “Secrets of the Great Pyramid” Victorian fringe literature I wish I’d gotten when it showed up in a now-defunct used bookstore. The last chapter was one long rant against the Satanic Metric System invented by Godless French Revolutionaries who turned their back on their God-Ordained Monarchy by Divine Right.
(Secrets of the Great Pyramid was a branch of Victorian Fringe Literature centered around the Great Pyramid of Giza being specially-ordained by God and holding a Prophetic Timeline of all human history in its dimensions — but only when measured with a special “Pyyramid Inch”. Kind of the “Ancient Aliens” of its day, except with God instead of Aliens.)
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Christian Monist uses the imagery of “The Edifice”, a 100-story building whose ground floor is anchored in Reality, and the higher you go, the less Reality you have. (A “reality score” kind of like a character’s “sanity score” in Call of Cthulhu.) CM estimates Fundangelicals live somewhere above the 80th floor.
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Jesus was/is neither a Christian nationalist nor a dominionist. Maybe he wasn’t/isn’t even an Evangelical, the way things are playing out in the Evangelical Camp.
Was/Is Jesus a fundamentalist?
Jesus was/is definitely biblical but my impression is that Jesus was/is not a biblical fundamentalist.
It’s the old Venn diagram method. One side is Jesus, the other is the group in question. Do the two sides even overlap? At all? Or, completely?
The religious leaders of Jesus’s day arranged for Jesus’s execution. Clearly, they weren’t on the same page and He knew it. Jesus did not back down under pressure, even to save his own mortal life.
He warned his disciples. They didn’t get it, until much later. Eventually, most of the Apostles paid with their mortal lives, too.
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I would, if his or her politics aligned with mine.
And if said person had a good record of public service.
I’m glad that our founders put in a ‘no religious test clause’ in our Constitution.
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I would, if his or her politics aligned with mine.
And if said person had a good record of public service, why should I care what his or her faith is or isn’t?
I’m glad that our founders put in a ‘no religious test clause’ into our Constitution.
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Muff Potter,
I certainly would, but I’m an atheist.
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Not sure what to say about this posting. Sounds crazy to me. But then again a Roman Catholic prayer partner of mine used to comment about never being lonely, as a couple of her favorite saints talked to her all the time, came to her in dreams, she talked to them, they left her favorite items here and there, etc.
But in the midst of this crazy world we woke up again to a very peaceful slight fog. Morning mists have been getting heavier as humidity and heat rise. The air outside smells like the inside of a florist shop. We eat high on the hog these days off of the garden. Nothing beats a still warm from the sun fresh picked tomato. Corn should ripen very soon God willing.
Truly He gives us such a wonderful, beautiful world to enjoy, and then comes heaven! What a great all loving Savior we have!
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If I recall correctly, you’d be defined as a “mainstream” Protestant. I’ll concede that many, though not all, would agree with you in principle. But every president that I can recall pays at least lip service to Christianity. They know it would be politically self destructive to decline an invitation to the National Prayer Breakfast.
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Matthew 5 17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished”
So all those “jots and tittles” that exhort us to do nasty things in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not erased by Jesus.
Fundamentalists believe either the whole enchilada is literal or none of it is. You don’t get to interpret. This is where Rushdoony got his inspiration.
True, Jesus sat down with tax collectors and prostitutes but literalists believe that was to bring them into this law.
So in the fundamentalist mindset it’s all about law, bible law, the only law.
They have to kit bash the founding of the USA into that law – linking it to the constitution and who it’s supposed to apply to.
It’s more complex than anything I can cover in a comments section but I think you cannot look at all the abuse and ignore the primary drivers of that abuse. Where does all this authoritarianism come from?
Nothing happens in a vacuum.
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Jack,
I’m not a main-stream anything Jack.
I’m a free thinker, despised by both fundamentalists and secularists.
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“Just like Shari’a, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
(With themselves as the Ayatollahs and Religious Police enforcing it jot-and-tittle.)
Because they have been catechized with a God of POWER and Wrath?
Because they have blurred the line between God and their More-Godly-Than-Thou selves?
Because they’re the ones in Control like a Sorcerer over his bound and controlled Spirits?
Because they’ve recast God in their own image (which is a bit lower than Zeus)?
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I think your prayer partner took the veneration of Saints a bit too far.
To the point of “Steve and Sarah Berger with Rosaries”.
It’s a characteristically-Catholic way to flake out, except usually the saint in question is Mary.
(Hence the term “Mary Channeling”, like what kicked off the Baysiders and Hill-of-Hopers.)
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Serious question: what is the difference between an avowed atheist and an atheist?
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Especially when said atheist shows more decency and integrity than most Christians.
But then, both of you have been contaminated by that Secular Humanism from the Pit of Hell.
Back to the BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!
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Why are the dead always so ill-mannered as to think that just because they are beyond the reach of Law Enforcement they now can creep around in our homes and kiss us in our beds? What a bunch of perverts.
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“She was sleeping in the early morning and felt someone lie down beside her and kiss her twice on the cheek.”
Hmm. Sounds more like a visit from Josh Duggar.
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Gerrit,
I laughed so hard that Poppy the pug started barking.
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And one more comment that got me giggling. I needed that today!
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Poppy needs to get out more.
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But they think they do.
I spent 10 years in the Calvary Chapel cult.
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If they achieved the power they so desperately crave, it would be as brutal a dictatorship as any the world has seen.
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When you hear the word “Christian” without any specific modifiers, who does it mean?
Always?
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Who needs that whole Bible (except for swinging as a weapon) when you have one-verse Proof Texts? Mantras you can recite over and over and over?
“Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
— Reichsminister Goebbels, famous Spinmeister
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“If you’re seein’ things
Runnin’ through your head
Who can you call?
GHOSTBUSTERS!
An invisible man
Sleepin’ in your bed
Oh, who ya gonna call?
GHOSTBUSTERS!”
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And the Christians will Praise the LOOOOOOOORD and Rejoice, for they will be the ones sitting at the Dictator’s Left and Right Hand.
Remember the relationship of The Beast (corrupt political system) and The False Prophet (corrupt religious system) in all that Christian Apocalyptic? Which one is always The Boss and which is always the sniveling sidekick who THINKS he’s the Boss?
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From my experience:
When you’re taking friendly fire from both sides, you’re probably on the right track.
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Ava Aaronson,
“Jesus was/is neither a Christian nationalist nor a dominionist. Maybe he wasn’t/isn’t even an Evangelical, the way things are playing out in the Evangelical Camp.
Was/Is Jesus a fundamentalist?
Jesus was/is definitely biblical but my impression is that Jesus was/is not a biblical fundamentalist.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i’d say Jesus wasn’t even a christian.
he was just him.
“christian” is this weird contortionism. full of contradictions, cruelty, and too much nonsense.
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Jack,
“How many of the people reading this would vote for an avowed atheist?”
+++++++++++++++++++
sure – if they are good leader, good at bringing about consensus, a decent human being.
(the atheists i know have stellar character and integrity, for no other reason than it’s good and right. nothing to prove.)
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Hell low! Son of Stan here. If one of us were to do that sort of thing (and we do, through the likes of young Duggar) humans would be calling a cop or an exorcist. They don’t think of all the implications if their dear departed were really visiting their bedrooms unannounced….. Mom!!! Dad!!! Yuck!! You don’t…
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Hell. Maybe skip the cop and just call the exorcist. Sonia Massey’s dad said she’d called an emissary of Satan. And we agree. Notice how when she said the J word the emissary flew into a profanity-filled murderous rage?
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I think you’ve hit the bull’s eye elastigirl.
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Before I knew they were called “Christian Zionists”, I called them “Anti-Semitic Zionists” (and there were a LOT of them during the Dispensation of Hal Lindsay).
I called them “Anti-Semitic Zionists” because they didn’t really like those Jews except as a fulfillment of End Time Prophecy and Israel as the tripwire for Armageddon. Went like this:
1) Israel Is In The Land(TM); this Fulfills End Time Prophecy and starts the End Times clock (any minute now… Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick…)
2) Since this fulfills Prophecy, Israel Can Do No Wrong (and God WILL Punish YOU if you don’t back them 1000%).
3) But they’re still just a piece on the End Times Gambeoard (Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick…) and once they’ve served their purpose as Tripwire for Armageddon, God will SMITE them too.
4) Because the Israelis, the Arab orc hordes, the Russian orc hordes (AKA Gog & Magog), the Chinese orc hordes (AKA the Kings from the East), you, me, we’re all expendable pieces in the End Times game. And It’s All Gonna Burn (including you and me and all we have known and loved). Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick…
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Or even more so, because They Can Do No Wrong, because All is Justified on the Cosmic level.
“GAWD HATH SAID!!!!!!!”
Absolute POWER plus Utter RIGHTEOUSNESS is a very BAD combination.
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“Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!”
The Keymaster
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Nah, ya’ want Dan Akroyd and Bill Murray.
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Muff Potter,
Maybe Dr Spengler is an even better choice to call up!
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Random comment: I often hear folks comment about having to take the whole Bible, not proof texts. First heard that in a holiness Pentecostal setting. Then Baptists, then UMC, then Lutherans, now often heard from progressives.
But the thing about taking the whole Bible is that includes those proof texts. So if you toss them off then you aren’t really taking the whole Bible any more than the proof texter.
And round and round we go.
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“ARE YOU THE GATEKEEPER?”
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I’ve not finished reading the comments yet, nor read the new post and its’ comments….
Thank you, linda, for your lovely description. 🙂 It’s almost as if I was there. 🙂
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I agree.
I’d rather hear about real and tangible beauty than sit through some dude droning on and on about Paul.
Any day of the week.
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There is no Lana, only Zuul.
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Just as there is no Christ, only CALVIN.
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Just remembered this take on the subject:
“Oh the road to Endor is the oldest road
And the craziest rad of all!
Straight it runs to the Witch’s abode,
As it did in the days of Saul,
And nothing has changed of the sorrow in store
For such as go down the road to Endor!”
— Rudyard Kipling. 1918
Full poem: https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_endor.htm
Commentary: https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/readers-guide/rg_endor1.htm
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thank you for the links to Rudyard Kipling’s poem En-Dor, as well as the commentary on the poem. 🙂
From the commentary:
From the letter mentioned in the above quote, also copied-and-pasted from the commentary:
I’m not commenting on my own personal beliefs….I’m merely including the quotes to emphasize the point that there’ll always be a person (or people) who will take advantage of another’s grief….
I can imagine many people were so stunned with unexpected loss and grief, perhaps regretting that the last words or communication with their recently-dead loved one(s) were ones of anger, etc., that they’d try anything to “fix” things.
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researcher,
Here’s an hour-long PBS documentary on the first surge of Spiritualism in 19th Century America, in the aftermath of the Civil War.
“American Experience: Telegrams from the Dead”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk-lJJ3RdgI
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thank you for the YouTube link. 🙂 Unfortunately, I’ll probably not get a chance to watch the documentary….I’ve so many things on my list already 🙂 ….and I much prefer reading (which I’m already way behind on 🙂 ).
I read the YouTube blurb, though, and American Experience: Telegrams from the Dead looks really interesting. 🙂 And from what I read in the blurb, I’ve a pretty good idea of some of the things that happened. 🙂
From the YouTube blurb:
I rarely watch videos (even documentaries) of any length on my computer….and podcasts, almost never. And there are so many books that I’ve thought of buying, but I don’t have enough time to read everything. 🙂 And not meant as a “pity party”, I can only stretch my limited finances so far. 🙂 There might be some things I miss out on — I’m interested in a LOT of things 🙂 — but, oh well…. 🙂