Could the SBC Learn From the Christian and Missionary Alliance’s Brand New Position on Women’s Ordination: Unity in the Midst of Differences?

Posted on by June 5, 2023avatar

“When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you.” ― Winston S. Churchill.

Christianity Today posted Christian and Missionary Alliance Will Ordain Women.

The Christian and Missionary Alliance (CMA) has decided to ordain women and allow them to carry the title of “pastor.” More than 60 percent of the denomination’s delegates approved the two changes at the Alliance’s general council in Spokane, Washington, last week, after four years of official discussion and debate.

I was impressed by the thoughtfulness of John Stumbo, the President of CM&A. The denomination is considered a conservative evangelical group. Yet, he said that it would allow for differences of opinion in their churches.

John Stumbo, president of the Alliance, supported the changes but also urged the gathered delegates to respect different interpretations of the New Testament verses on church leadership.

“Do not think that just because someone disagrees with your biblical position that they don’t love the Word of God, honor the authority of the Word of God, and hold true to its core teachings,” he said. “Everyone I’ve spoken to across the country has come with a thoughtful position. … We have the right, privilege, and necessity of having a mutual respectability for each other.”

…Stumbo said the Alliance, which includes about 2,000 churches in the United States, needs unity, but not uniformity. Churches that ordain women and those that don’t can work together to proclaim the gospel.

This caused me to wonder why the SBC couldn’t do the same. The SBC is facing pushback from Saddleback Church which has been “thrown out” of the SBC because it chose to ordain women. In many discussions about the Baptist Faith and Message (BFM), I have heard many reasons why the SBC could do the same. After all, they believe in the autonomy of individual churches, or so they say. However, there is a movement afoot to shore up the BFM to clearly state women cannot be pastors. It may go further than that. Women with the title of pastor of “facility management” would not be allowed. Women cannot use the word “pastor” in front of their name for anything.

The Roys Report posted Hundreds of Pastors Call For SBC Constitutional Amendment Banning Female Pastors.

In a letter titled “A Call to Keep Our Unity,” Pastor Mike Law of Arlington Baptist Church in Arlington, Virginia, writes to the SBC’s Executive Committee in support of an amendment to the convention’s constitution. The proposed amendment states cooperating churches cannot “affirm, appoint, or employ a woman as a pastor of any kind.”

Law’s letter is being circulated to other pastors and professors at Southern Baptist institutions for additional signatures. More than 700 Southern Baptist pastors have cosigned the letter, along with two professors at SBC seminaries.

Here is my prediction regarding the SBC. The continued insistence that each church is autonomous will become suspect if it is shown that each church is not really autonomous. The tiresome argument that the SBC has “standards” to which the member churches must subscribe even though they are “autonomous” will one day be overturned by the law. I find the current lawsuit in which Will McRaney is suing the North American mission Baord fascinating. 

McRaney, former executive director of the Baptist Convention of Maryland/Delaware, originally filed the lawsuit in 2017. In it, McRaney stated NAMB wrongfully influenced his 2015 termination and furthermore intentionally defamed him over a dispute regarding collaborative missions efforts in the area.

…An affidavit of one of those witnesses, former NAMB employee Bill Barker, was presented on Feb. 22. Barker described a pattern of behavior by NAMB President Kevin Ezell consistent with McRaney’s accusations.

“From personal experience and knowledge, I know that Kevin Ezell has used NABM’s funding and resources to control state conventions” and influence the hiring and firing of personnel, Barker said.

This weekend, an Open Letter to all Southern Baptists by Rick Warren has been widely circulating in the media. I have decided to reprint it here. Listen carefully to his arguments. I will highlight some sentences that I find particularly compelling but feel free to disagree with me.

The SBC convention is in two weeks. Warren will ask that the SBC allow Saddleback to continue as a church in the SBC.

As a Southern Baptist pastor with multi-generations of pastors in my family, my life has been shaped and nurtured by the SBC. I’m writing this open letter for two reasons:

First, I’m deeply concerned about our denomination’s 17 years of decline and the loss of a half million members just last year. No denomination can sustain that kind of loss.

Second, many have asked me to explain why Saddleback Church is appealing an Executive Committee ruling at our annual meeting in New Orleans in two weeks.

The Southern Baptist Convention is a mosaic of many kinds of Baptist “tribes” who came together to cooperate on the Great Commission. We are general Baptists (the original founding Baptists of 1609), revival Baptists, fundamentalist Baptists, Calvinist Baptists and many other varieties of Baptists.

From the start, our unity has always been based on a common mission, not a common confession. For the first 80 years of the SBC, we did not even have a confession because the founders were adamantly opposed to having one. (You can read the founding documents at www.sbcstand.com). They knew we never could get 100% of Baptists to agree 100% on 100% of every interpretation of Scripture.

“They knew we never could get 100% of Baptists to agree 100% on 100% of every interpretation of Scripture.”

That’s why every version of the Baptist Faith and Message has called itself a “consensus of opinion,” and it repeatedly warns us it is not a creed to be used to enforce doctrinal uniformity or exclude members of our denominational family. Your own family members often hold opposing opinions, but you don’t disown them for that. You still love them in spite of disagreements.

“Consensus” means “generally agreed on.” It doesn’t mean “universally or unanimously agreed on.”

For example, none of the messengers from our churches who voted against the changes made in the revised Baptist Faith and Message 2000 have been kicked out, even though they disagreed with some of the statements. That’s the Baptist way. We have never demanded every Baptist agree on every interpretation.

In fact, for 178 years, Southern Baptists have agreed to disagree on dozens and dozens of doctrinal differences so we could cooperate for the gospel.

The current ruling of the Executive Committee will open Pandora’s box of unintended consequences unless we reject it. It will fundamentally destroy four historic Southern Baptist distinctives upon which the convention was organized by our founders.

It will:

  1. Change the basis of our cooperation.
  2. Change the basis of our identity.
  3. Centralize power in the Executive Committee and take away autonomy from the churches.
  4. Turn our confession into a creed, which Baptists always have opposed. We all grew up with the slogan “We have no book but the Bible, and we have no creed but Christ!”

Our appeal to reverse the Executive Committee ruling is not asking any Baptist to change their theology. Not at all. The overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists are complementarian. But we reject the idea that Southern Baptists who disagree are an existential threat to our convention and not true Baptists.

We want to cooperate on the Great Commission. All we’re asking is that Southern Baptists act like Southern Baptists, as we have for 178 years, and continue to be a fellowship of independent churches who agree to disagree on many things in order to agree to fulfill our mission together.

This could be Southern Baptists’ finest moment. It should be the moment where we say “no” to becoming a creedal denomination (like some Presbyterians who have 11 creeds and confessions) and instead reaffirm that it is the Great Commission that draws us together, not doctrinal uniformity in every jot and tittle.

This should be the moment where 47,000-plus autonomous, independent, freedom-loving churches say no to turning the Executive Committee into a theological magisterium that controls a perpetual inquisition of churches and makes the Executive Committee a centralized hierarchy that tells our congregations who to hire and what to call them.

This is a vote to affirm the God-given freedom of every Baptist to interpret Scripture as a Baptist— by saying no to those who deny that freedom. This is a vote to affirm evangelism by saying no to factionalism. This is a vote to refocus on the Great Commission and say no to a Great Inquisition, which will waste enormous time, money and energy that we should be investing in revitalizing our churches.

This is a vote to continue being the denomination of Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong— two strong, godly women who fearlessly spoke to men and challenged them everywhere about the priority of missions, and to say no to those who would have silenced these Southern Baptist women.

This is a vote to affirm our founding documents which insist that our unity is to be based on giving total submission to Christ in our deeds and not based on mental submission to man-made creeds.

Hand me a Bible and I’ll sign that as my authority.
The Bible is Baptist’s sole authority.

This is a vote to prioritize Baptists working together to heal the hurts of the world in Jesus’ name instead of nitpicking at each other over our many differences.

For Southern Baptists, the independence and freedom of our churches has been a great strength. Our rejection of a centralized hierarchy has been a strength. And our rejection of an enforceable creed has been a strength. It was only in the last 17 years, as we moved away from these historic strengths, that our denomination started rapidly declining.

The SBC grew for 80 years — 80 years! — without any statement of faith because our unity never was based on a confession. Then we grew for 90 more years — with a consensus confession that never was used to exclude people on the basis of interpretation.

In our 178-year history, it has only been in the last eight years that the Baptist Faith and Message has been weaponized and turned into a creed for exclusion. That happened through a misguided amendment to the SBC Constitution passed in 2015. Today, our founders are rolling over in their graves.

“It has only been in the last eight years that the Baptist Faith and Message has been weaponized and turned into a creed for exclusion.”

In U.S. history, when people have realized a constitutional amendment was wrong, the citizens have had the right and responsibility to repeal it. In the same way, Southern Baptists need to take back their denomination by repealing the 2015 un-Baptist amendment, so we can be true Baptists again.

Southern Baptists know how to humbly correct wrongs. Recently we’ve just started to do that with victims of sexual abuse in our churches. In 1995, at the 150th annual meeting in Atlanta, there was another historic, Christ-honoring moment when Southern Baptists corrected a grievous historic evil by adopting the “Resolution on Racial Reconciliation.”

In that humble resolution, Southern Baptists lamented and repented of the sin of slavery, repudiated racism, apologized to our African American brothers and sisters, and humbly asked for the process of reconciliation to begin. I remember Kay and I sitting next to a Black pastor and his wife who wept as that resolution passed. Since then, thousands of non-white churches have found a home in our convention.

That growth resulted from a correction! We can do it again.

If we don’t correct the direction we’ve been heading for eight years by saying no to the Executive Committee’s misguided ruling, and then repealing the un-Baptist 2015 amendment, our convention will continue to grow weaker and smaller. We’ll keep having infighting and friction between tribes and factions; un-Christlike name-calling; wasted convention time, money and energy; loss of trust and credibility; continued membership decline; and the death of the basis for cooperation upon which this body was founded. That basis — a common mission, not a confession — was the founding genius that made the SBC great.

This is why our church is challenging the ruling: Not for ourselves, but for the future and nature of the SBC, which hangs in the balance.

The implications of this precedent cannot be overstated. So, I urge you, friends, to go and vote no at the annual meeting in New Orleans.

The End

I wonder if the SBC could learn something from the CMA. So let me repeat this statement from the President.

…Stumbo said the Alliance, which includes about 2,000 churches in the United States, needs unity, but not uniformity. Churches that ordain women and those that don’t can work together to proclaim the gospel.

 

Comments

Could the SBC Learn From the Christian and Missionary Alliance’s Brand New Position on Women’s Ordination: Unity in the Midst of Differences? — 86 Comments

  2. The campaign website for this amendment to the SBC constitution:

    https://sbcamendment.org/home-2/frequently-asked-questions/

    The guy behind it: a Mark Dever intern, Mike Law Jr.

    https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/past-interns/
    intern

    Law has compiled a blacklist of the scores of Southern Baptist churches he wants disfellowshipped for having women ministers.

    The amendment adds having “a woman as a pastor of any kind” right after the sexual abuse and racial discrimination reasons that a church may be disfellowshipped!

    It’s not just about ministerial titles for Law, he doesn’t want women preaching at all:

    Constitutional amendment campaign website, FAQ #22 Can’t women preach?
    “No…women are not to exercise authority over a man…preaching is part of what establishes a pastor’s authority…God’s Word [is] subverted by any sister who preaches…Churches who have male pastors wrongly permitting sisters to preach under their ‘authority’ misunderstand and cut against the grain of God’s design for his church.”

  3. Scratching my head seeing that Rod Martin, co-founder of the ‘Conservative Baptist Network’ faction of the SBC, twittered support last month for the interim president of the SBC Executive Committee, whose church has women preaching:

    https://twitter.com/RodDMartin/status/1653146823173840896

    Martin: “I have no idea whether Willie McLaurin is conservative. But whether he is or isn’t, he has a great resume and seems to be very competent, gracious and honest.”

    TWW story on McLaurin published in March:

    https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/03/10/do-some-leaders-in-the-sbc-attend-churches-in-which-women-are-called-reverends-and-ministers-and-some-even-preach-things-are-sure-confusing/

  4. Jerome,

    “preaching is part of what establishes a pastor’s authority”
    +++++++++++

    good grief. not any more than wearing briefs instead of boxers gives pastorman his authority.

    mike law takes stupid pills.

  6. Ava Aaronson,

    i’m going to picture mike law in briefs and black socks & nothing else for the rest of the day. oh, i’ll toss in a cape, too.

    That oughtta improve my day.

  8. I wonder why it’s so important to Rick Warren that Saddleback remain SBC. Is he simply that loyal to a denomination? Or is he (or the church) actually getting something out of the denominational affiliation?

  9. And all this controversy from a personal letter penned by Paul to his protege (Timothy) in Ephesus huh?

  10. Sarah (aka Wild Honey),

    sure. and lets make the briefs turquoise.

    what fun! Mike Law Colorforms!

    (i had barbie, my sister had raggedy anne — 1 dimensional cardboard dolls that stood upright and a whole wardrobe and set of accessories of rubbery clings ‘clings’ to dress them up in.)

    i see a business opportunity…

  11. ‘ Churches that ordain women and those that don’t can work together to proclaim the gospel.

    This caused me to wonder why the SBC couldn’t do the same.’

    This is why some churches/groups, especially conservative ones, resist an analysis of the power in their structure and make out that such an analysis is Marxist, communist, or whatever: when you analyse the power it shows why not everyone will do that.
    In this case we see:
    Christian and Missionary Alliance: working together and not looking to be the winner in the argument.
    Southern Baptist Convention: looking to subdue difference and ensure that there are winners or losers.
    In fact at its extreme it becomes a zero sum game where the winners set out to ensure the losers are left with nothing.
    What does this have to do with the last being first, etc, you may ask? F*** all.

  13. Back, many years ago, in the eons of time, there was a man named Roy Honeycutt. He was president of a large Baptist seminary in Louisville, KY. Roy was a good man. God loving and God fearing, he watched as a new and difficult culture began to grow. This culture said his seminary did not take God or his word “literally” and was a danger. On the other hand there were those who felt like Roy’s seminary was fine as it was. With the growth of the “other side”, Roy decided to open his seminary to both cultures. Roy was known as a bridge builder. There would be “unity in diversity” as each faction could find its needs met in one place. His seminary would have “faculty balance” between the two sides, and all would be well.

    But things did not work out as Roy had hoped. He was pressured to resign by those who did not want to share their theological journeys Roy retired from the big seminary in 1993 three years earlier than he had originally planned.

    A call went forth throughout the land for someone to take Roy’s place at the big seminary in Louisville. Low and behold, the call was answered by someone who at one time had been one of Roy’s assistants. His name was Al Mohler. Al made his mark, and all so very soon, good people who had long been loved as professors at the big seminary packed their books and departed, for there was no longer any need for any perspective that was not approved by Al and his new board.

    Alas, “unity in diversity” ended at the big seminary in Louisville. We knew this day would come, because it first died a few years earlier at a small seminary in North Carolina. It didn’t die on its own. “Unity in diversity” was purposely killed off. And as others came to learn at the big seminary and took their teachings throughout the land, that which had died first only at the big seminary in Louisville started to die across the land.

    And here we are today . . .

  17. Muff Potter:
    And all this controversy from a personal letter penned by Paul to his protege (Timothy) in Ephesus huh?

    Yeah. And just about all of Paul’s instructions for and about women come straight out of the Greco-Roman socio-political order/structure/laws. He just made a couple of changes: He added “Jesus” and “church”, and told husbands to love their wives.

  18. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): I wonder why it’s so important to Rick Warren that Saddleback remain SBC. Is he simply that loyal to a denomination? Or is he (or the church) actually getting something out of the denominational affiliation?

    I may be over-optimistic, but he could be doing this out of love for the SBC and to force its hand. Is the SBC still committed to the autonomy of local churches? Is the SBC still non-creedal? Let’s have a discussion about this, Warren may be saying, in effect.

    He mentioned the weaponization of the Baptist Faith & Message, also warned against turning the Great Commission into a Great Inquisition. These are strong words, and the SBC deserves to be on the receiving end of them. Warren may be hoping that there are a few within SBC leadership who come to realize that this whole thing wasn’t thought through very carefully, and that Warren has a point.

    But I doubt that, at present, Saddleback would be “getting anything out of the denominational affiliation.” A lot of megachurches are independent.

  19. Could the SBC Learn From the Christian and Missionary Alliance’s Brand New Position on Women’s Ordination: Unity in the Midst of Differences?

    Long answer: They could, but they won’t.
    Short answer: No¹.
    —
    ¹ Sorry for the cynicism, but while they’re in doubling down mode, they are incapable of learning anything.

  20. Mike Law Jr who’s pushing the anti-women-preachers amendment to the SBC constitution, not only did he intern with 9Mark Dever, he was selected to serve under him as ‘Pastoral Assistant’:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070622063716/http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org:80/CC_Content_Page/0,,PTID324006%7CCHID683858,00.html

    After years doing that, Law was released onto FBC Ballston VA, and ran it into the ground. Then ‘planted’ Grace Baptist Church, Arlington using CHBC people, which was later ‘merged’ with Arlington Baptist Church for its building.

  24. elastigirl: sounds like magic and wizardry to me.

    They say that the Bible is an all-time best seller.
    I also think that it’s one of the most abused books of all-time too.

  25. elastigirl: Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    “Can’t we have a rainbow pattern in shades of nothing but pinks?”
    ++++++++++++++

    yes. some sparkles, too.

    Careful, he already looks gayer than a tree full of monkeys on nitrous oxide, even without your sartorial improvements.

  26. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Yeah. And just about all of Paul’s instructions for and about women come straight out of the Greco-Roman socio-political order/structure/laws.

    Some months ago I got my head bit off on youtube (comment section) for stating this very thing. You’d (generic you) have thought that the fundagelical dude lobbing mortar rounds at me was a devout Muslim defending his Quran.

  27. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): And just about all of Paul’s instructions for and about women come straight out of the Greco-Roman socio-political order/structure/laws.

    So is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day?

  28. Sarah (aka Wild Honey):
    I wonder why it’s so important to Rick Warren that Saddleback remain SBC. Is he simply that loyal to a denomination? Or is he (or the church) actually getting something out of the denominational affiliation?

    This is something that you can only understand if you are part of it. Being put out is the essence of shame. Anyone would then refer to Saddleback as the Church that was ousted from the SBC. My opinion from years in Fundamentalist Baptist churches, (up to 1999).

  29. Muff Potter: Some months ago I got my head bit off on youtube (comment section) for stating this very thing.You’d (generic you) have thought that the fundagelical dude lobbing mortar rounds at me was a devout Muslim defending his Quran.

    That is because Calvinists not only believe in the Inspiration of Scripture, but in a sense, they believe in the Inspiration and inerrancy of their particular interpretation. it has only been a short time that Wayne Grudem and John Piper (whom I love) have moved Complementarianism from a doctrine that we can agreeably disagree on and still work together, to a central tenet of the faith, alongside the Virgin Birth, Substitutionary Atonement, Resurrection, Deity of Christ. Luther and Calvin would roll over in their graves.

  30. Don Jones: So is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day?

    So the OT permissive attitude toward “one husband, multiple wives” should be considered normative for our time, the same way that Paul’s culturally-conditioned accommodations to the Greco-Roman expectations of his contemporaries are?

  31. Don Jones,
    So is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day?

    Do you greet your brothers in Christ with a holy kiss? Is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day? I’ve been told several times that that is a “cultural thing”. How do we know?

    Women had very few, almost no rights in the ancient Greco-Roman world.
    (Most marriages were little more than business deals brokered by a pater-father and the suitor. Women had little say in the arrangements. Marriage meant a transfer of guardianship of a woman from the father to the groom.)

    It would seem as if the pagan Greco-Roman society was very much in tune with God’s will for women long before Paul wrote the epistles.
    Is there any chance that Paul just was saying to abide by the laws and social order of the time?

  32. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Is there any chance that Paul just was saying to abide by the laws and social order of the time?

    I think so.
    He did after all write this:
    “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”

  33. Don Jones,

    “So is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day?”
    ++++++++++++++

    well, i for one wish some of you would go emasculate yourselves.

    (although most likely none present & accounted for here… but we’ll see)

  34. Bob M,

    “…they believe in the Inspiration and inerrancy of their particular interpretation.”
    ++++++++++++

    well, that’s the working definition of “biblical”. everyone thinks they’re right and everyone else is wrong and the sky is about to fall because of them.

    a hill to die on.

    or really, a hill from which to stay inconvenienced & comfortable while destroying one’s perceived opponents in culture wars. with cruelty.

  35. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    “I’ve been told several times that that is a “cultural thing”. How do we know?”
    ++++++++++++

    i make love my neighbor as myself my guiding principle.

    ‘biblical’ is simply an algebraic equation that can’t be solved. every theological system errs somewhere, focussing on some things to the exclusion of others.

    it’s my duty as a human being let alone someone who takes Jesus seriously not to err on cruelty to others, but on other categories instead.

  36. Don Jones: So is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day?

    Depends which parts.
    Are we talking about Jesus rising from the dead or women keeping quiet in the Church?

  37. “It has only been in the last eight years that the Baptist Faith and Message has been weaponized and turned into a creed for exclusion.”

    Southern Baptists can thank the New Calvinist elite now in charge of the SBC for that (Mohler, et. al). Whether they like it or not, the New Calvinists have the final say on everything … and “women sit down and shut up” is at the top of their list. They call it the “beauty of complementarity”, but it’s an ugly form of bondage for women unfortunate enough to sign on as a Southern Baptist. If God has called them to preach/pastor, the NeoCals will make darn sure they don’t! They have the final authority in SBC life now, not Jesus.

  38. “Southern Baptists lamented and repented of the sin of slavery”

    It took the SBC 150 years before they finally got around to doing that, while Galatians 3:28 was continually reminding them that there should be no distinction in race, class or gender in the Body of Christ.

    They may have taken care of the race thing (at least on paper), but I’m not sure they will ever get around to dealing correctly with gender. For some reason, that seems harder for the hardcore among them to do. Their interpretation of “Biblical” and “Baptist” is more important than being Christian, I suppose.

  39. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): I wonder why it’s so important to Rick Warren that Saddleback remain SBC. Is he simply that loyal to a denomination? Or is he (or the church) actually getting something out of the denominational affiliation?

    It’s the other way around. The denomination gets something out of Saddleback = millions of dollars over the years via their annual contribution to SBC’s Cooperative Program and missions offerings (named after two women, Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong … both pretty good preachers!).

    I believe Warren is making one last attempt to get SBC off the track of not allowing women to exercise their spiritual giftings. I don’t think Warren or Saddleback membership are burning to remain Southern Baptists. They could use their big buck SBC contributions for other mission efforts.

  40. Luckyforward: … Al Mohler. Al made his mark, and all so very soon, good people who had long been loved as professors at the big seminary packed their books and departed, for there was no longer any need for any perspective that was not approved by Al and his new board.

    Alas, “unity in diversity” ended at the big seminary in Louisville.

    Make no mistake about it, Al still has significant influence in the SBC. He crafted revisions to the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000 that trended the denomination toward Calvinism and its rotten treatment of women. He made it very clear what he thought of women in ministry during a Q&A session in 1993 when he became SBTS President. Hundreds/thousands of Mohlerites are now pastors/elders at SBC churches, most SBC entities have leaders directly tied to working with him; they won’t let him down.

  41. dee: All pastor affiliated with the SBC get to participate in a retirement fund.

    Warren is most likely 100% vested in that fund; SBC can’t touch it. Given his wealth, he wouldn’t need it anyway to have a comfortable retirement.

  42. Bob M: it has only been a short time that Wayne Grudem and John Piper (whom I love) have moved Complementarianism from a doctrine that we can agreeably disagree on and still work together, to a central tenet of the faith, alongside the Virgin Birth, Substitutionary Atonement, Resurrection, Deity of Christ.

    Exactly. Secondary and tertiary matters have become primary doctrine.

    And although many people in the affected churches have heard of John Piper, I’ll bet most of them have not heard of Wayne Grudem. Example: a year ago in my (former) church, in which I am still a member, one of the current elders—and a strong proponent of the new by-laws that re-structured church government to male-only elders—had never heard of Al Mohler.

  43. Max: I’m not sure they will ever get around to dealing correctly with gender.

    First, they need to get around to dealing correctly with sex. Gender is a different wrinkle, involving rainbows and the risk of being called “woke.”

  45. Max,

    Well, one human owning another human is now illegal in most countries…. so there’s that.
    And, that Galatians thing….. Paul’s talkin’ ‘bout our souls – not our bodies (yes, I’ve heard that one).

    My prediction: certain pompous people are going to put up a fight to maintain whatever ‘God-ordained’ superiority they currently still have over other, ‘lesser’ beings.
    Certain women are about all they have left that they can overpower with their “correct understanding” of the Bible and a smiley face…..

  46. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): women are about all they have left that they can overpower with their “correct understanding” of the Bible

    The NeoCals now have a bit of power to get back at females for not being able to get a date in high school.

  48. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): certain pompous people are going to put up a fight to maintain whatever ‘God-ordained’ superiority they currently still have over other, ‘lesser’ beings.
    Certain women are about all they have left that they can overpower with their “correct understanding” of the Bible and a smiley face…..

    Weak men scared to live out their godly human potential favor women living out less than their godly human potential.

    These weak but self/flesh/ego-empowered men making rules for orgs are threatened by women fully equipped by God, walking in the Holy Spirit, faithful disciples of Jesus.

    Men have that opportunity – to live fully equipped by God, walking in the Spirit, as faithful disciples of Jesus. These weak men refuse their godly opportunity and thus seek to deny women their godly opportunity. They design their theology to wield worldly power even while the Holy Spirit and the power of God has nothing to do with them.

    Remedy? Shake dust off sandals while getting out of Dodge, Jesus said. Dodge being the world of these weak ego-empowered men completely devoid of God’s power. They might as well be worshipping Baal with dead altars devoid of God’s power.

    Then along comes Jesus and the power of God, proving once again that our God reigns.

  49. Max: They could use their big buck SBC contributions for other mission efforts.

    The big boyz at the top of the SBC pile know this, and I don’t think they’ll alienate Warren any more than they have to in order to keep a solemn face.

  50. Ava Aaronson: Men have that opportunity – to live fully equipped by God, walking in the Spirit, as faithful disciples of Jesus. These weak men refuse their godly opportunity and thus seek to deny women their godly opportunity. They design their theology to wield worldly power even while the Holy Spirit and the power of God has nothing to do with them.

    And yet these same men will swear up and down that they’re the ones who are truly following the Bible.

  51. Muff Potter: So is this God’s inspired word or just a regurgitation of cultural issues of the day?

    Depends which parts.
    Are we talking about Jesus rising from the dead or women keeping quiet in the Church?

    Or the plethora of talking animals or a dude getting eaten by a fish or Simon Magus flying around the village square.

  52. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): And don’t forget the gouging out of eyes that look lustfully upon a woman.

    Oh yeah, that’s a good one, I think you’re supposed to do it to yourself too!

    Nothing expressed divine love like self mutilation.

  53. Ava Aaronson,
    These weak but self/flesh/ego-empowered men

    Yeah….. I think some of mIght just be a little lazy and a little cowardly, too……… mighta met one or two like that.

  55. Samuel Conner: So the OT permissive attitude toward “one husband, multiple wives” should be considered normative for our time, the same way that Paul’s culturally-conditioned accommodations to the Greco-Roman expectations of his contemporaries are?

    That explains the Pelvic behavior of Joseph Smith and a LOT of the Celebrity MenaGAWD of today. And all the loophole dodges about how it Really Isn’t Adultery. Or Rape.

  56. Max: The NeoCals now have a bit of power to get back at females for not being able to get a date in high school.

    “Just like InCels, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
    “Saint” Elliot Roger with Bibles instead of guns.

    Remember Womb Tomb Swanson?
    That guy looks and sounds like a High School Dork who got himself into a position of Power and Revenge by Divine Right.

  57. SBC could also learn from the example of Beeson Divinity School under its conservative Southern Baptist and Lutheran deans, Timothy George and Douglas Sweeney:

    https://www.samford.edu/beeson-divinity/women-in-ministry/

    “The Center for Women in Ministry at Beeson holds to the commitments of Beeson Divinity School and to the two beliefs that God calls women to Christian ministry and the Church needs God-called, theologically trained women in ministry. This Center does not advocate for a complementarian or egalitarian theological position as such, but rather assists all women in evangelical, Protestant churches (whether complementarian or egalitarian) for the sake of the flourishing of women in ministry.”

    Timothy George, btw is president this year of the Evangelical Theological Society:

    https://thealabamabaptist.org/beesons-timothy-george-serves-as-evangelical-theological-society-president-in-its-75th-year/

    His successor as ETS president will be Karen Jobes, professor emerita at Wheaton.

    “She will become the first female president of ETS”

  59. someday, in the near or very far-off future,
    Christian people will come to understand that the misogyny of belittling women as ‘lesser than’ is a RESULT of the FALL,

    and that will be a good day,

    and all human persons made in the image of God will be given their due dignity and no ‘group’ will be stoned or pointed to or put down as ‘lesser’ beings, no

    the SBC cannot stop the passage of time, thank God

  60. Jerome: Lifeway has on sale ordination certificates from the SBC’s B&H Publishing Group that are “appropriate for male or female. Space for name, church, location, date, and signatures of ordaining council”

    And they are on sale!! You can’t make this stuff up!

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  61. Bob M: That is because Calvinists not only believe in the Inspiration of Scripture, but in a sense, they believe in the Inspiration and inerrancy of their particular interpretation.

    It’s not just Calvinists.
    Ever talked with a Calvary Chapel pastor out here in Southern-Cali?
    They also believe that their interpretation of Holy Writ is inspired and inerrant.
    So rather than Paul to Timothy just refuting a pagan creation myth along with pagan worship practices, it’s taken to mean that preaching and teaching the good news is based solely on plumbing received at birth.

  62. Sowre-Sweet Dayes: SWBTS … outst Russell Dilday in 1994

    A good man who called himself a moderate conservative, but he wasn’t conservative enough during the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence.

  63. Muff Potter: I don’t think they’ll alienate Warren any more than they have to

    Saddleback is the second largest church in the SBC, the largest church in California, and one of the largest in America. They have contributed millions of dollars to the SBC. The big boyz at SBC will come up with a creative way to handle wimmenfolk in ministry in order to keep Saddleback in the fold and its gravy train on the track.

  64. Max: The big boyz at SBC will come up with a creative way to handle wimmenfolk in ministry in order to keep Saddleback in the fold and its gravy train on the track.

    All about the Benjamins, baby.

  65. Ted: I may be over-optimistic, but he could be doing this out of love for the SBC and to force its hand. Is the SBC still committed to the autonomy of local churches? Is the SBC still non-creedal? Let’s have a discussion about this, Warren may be saying, in effect.

    He mentioned the weaponization of the Baptist Faith & Message, also warned against turning the Great Commission into a Great Inquisition. These are strong words, and the SBC deserves to be on the receiving end of them. Warren may be hoping that there are a few within SBC leadership who come to realize that this whole thing wasn’t thought through very carefully, and that Warren has a point.

    But I doubt that, at present, Saddleback would be “getting anything out of the denominational affiliation.” A lot of megachurches are independent.

    Good comment, Ted. And I was thinking the same thing, about Rick Warren using this as an opportunity to force the SBC’s hand.

  66. researcher: Rick Warren using this as an opportunity to force the SBC’s hand

    Could be his way of identifying anyone left in SBC leadership that still has a lick of spiritual sense.

  67. researcher: Rick Warren using this as an opportunity to force the SBC’s hand

    As a Calvinist, Warren never came alongside SBC’s New Calvinist movement. This surely disturbed Al Mohler and the Mohlerites who now control the SBC, that Warren wouldn’t align himself with the movement. Mohler’s hand won’t be forced to please Warren on the issue of women in ministry … Mohler made waves in the SBC kingdom when he made it tough on women (faculty and students) when he became SBTS President. There is no wiggle room with Mohler on the role of women … Warren is up against a brick wall.

  68. Ted,

    1 – salami slicing of mischief making

    2 – there is no resurrection when the gifts are vetoed. This is the way in which Graham Beynon and Jane Tooher have made this a first-rank issue in their non-christianity after all.

  69. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    And he is not endorsing them, they are conversational reference points. It’s the apparently muslim-like individuals like Muff encountered who present the Bible like an instruction all written at once.

    Who realises letters got read en route.

    The unusual word for “teach” means “usurp”. I also wonder about the singular “a woman”, she may be one who recently was an “exotic initiator”.

    So the sloppy interpretations adopted by most regular commentators aren’t a counterweight at all, you are endorsing the wrongs while claiming not to. I wish you’d be more alert and caring.

  70. “affirm, appoint, or employ a woman as a pastor of any kind.”

    Not even amplifying pastor?

    Luckyforward,

    Thank you LF, please can you remind me of the institution in North Carolina or any of its personnel involved earlier? I’m mentally compiling a “genealogy” of these trends and their involvement over here.

  71. Muff Potter: So rather than Paul to Timothy just refuting a pagan creation myth along with pagan worship practices, it’s taken to mean that preaching and teaching the good news is based solely on plumbing received at birth.

    I’ve noticed also that the way 1 Timothy is taught and applied by some fundagelicals, it’s almost like a ‘punishment’ (from the fall) levied onto women simply for being female.
    Anybody else see this too?

  72. Muff Potter,

    yes.

    reading thru twitter today on this topic (cuz i’m procrastinating), i’m amazed at a number of things… the stupidity, illogic, sheer intransigence, the outrage, the disgust,…

    these were not unfamiliar and I sort of expected them — but the intensity of it was breathtaking.

    people get weird as soon as the concept of God is involved. in this case, i perceive that a large part of it is permission to indulge base human nature

    -to indulge the pleasure of being better than someone else, being in the euperior group who looks down on the inferior group, and rightfully so, hear hear!

    and the mantle to protect the universe by making sure the lower class know their place and don’t rise above it.

    sort of soothing the wounded inner child and/or pleasuring whatever strands of narcissism a person may have that are otherwise kept in check.

    for the females expressing the outrage, i perceive some degree of self-flagellation… a sick delight in reducing oneself because of the Godpoints they score.

    it’s amazing to me the potential Jesus’ namesake religion has in bringing out the worst in people.

  73. Muff Potter,

    Absolutely! One thing that I found so freeing in Wesleyan and ELCA groups was the belief that the death of Jesus reverses the fall. Not that we see it all right now, no, but ultimately. So a Christian husband and wife have no need to try to enforce his dominance as that is sinful, a result of the fall. And churches can welcome women as equals because of that reversal. Only Satan was cursed. The rest of Genesis 3 describes the natural effects of the fall, not God’s prescription. Like telling a child that touching a hot wood stove will hurt. We don’t set up family rules that force a kid to touch it. We warn them what is going to happen if and when they do.

  74. elastigirl: it’s amazing to me the potential Jesus’ namesake religion has in bringing out the worst in people.

    The irony is large yes?
    Considering how it’s spoesta’ bring out the best in us.

  76. Ted,

    R Warren, by his own actions and words are not beneficial to God’s church. R Warren’s interest is narcissistic. He would destroy the SBC and set him self up as the nations preeminent protestant leader.

  77. Thomas,

    Bless your heart. I am convinced and now stand with you, preventing more prominent leaders than Mike Stone and friends.

  79. elastigirl: for the females expressing the outrage, i perceive some degree of self-flagellation… a sick delight in reducing oneself because of the Godpoints they score.

    Yes and in one of the movements I was in this was aimed against men and boys as well – except the slick tongued interregional operatives of course. Indeed multitudes of prominent pastors in a number of huge denominations promulgate this “equal opportunity” “God’s joke on you” scenario as mainstream christian faith.

    The idea in substituting the genuine decoy women “headline” issue is to deflect from their quashing of all gifts in everybody.

    linda,

    Gosh your words take me right back in time – that USED to be proper, ordinary, general, Christian religion, everywhere! And He does it distinctly by BOTH inbreathing AND bestowing, around His Ascension, not just either.

  80. Thomas,

    The YRR and their moralising materialistic forebears, by usurping the “good fire” that Christ brought to earth, have made their constructivism (fallacy based propaganda) work like essentialism (it is literally cramping the lives of people with diverse emotions).

    This is why we mustn’t confine ourselves to ticking off those with headline bad manners. R Warren, T Keller types ration the gifts, how many parables are told about the terrible connotations of that, how many Old Testament descriptions?

    And the D Carson approach isn’t intellectually rigorous like reportedly many people say.

    Mocking the young with some of their forms of “youth ministry”, trapping them in ineffectual or distorted gifts.

    This is why God’s people – us – will prepare to help those around us in a contingent world when we pray more – any prayer, all prayer.

  81. John Berry: Southern Baptist Convention: looking to subdue difference and ensure that there are winners or losers.
    In fact at its extreme it becomes a zero sum game where the winners set out to ensure the losers are left with nothing.

    Tim Gloege in Guaranteed Pure brings forward two facts:

    – the Fundamentals were invented as a dishonest means to mechanise ecumenism in “evangelisation”.

    – The “premium oats” model implied farmers’ generic crops brought to market and christians’ diverse gifts were inferior (a high up in the Quaker Oats Company was apponted to a senior position at the Moody Institute)

    Result:

    An already inadequate minimum became through Carl Henry, John Stott and colleagues the enforced maximum of today.

    (A variation is that the “new apostolics” seize the opportunity to claim to restore what has got cut out.)

    Thus a form of “competition” entails destroying the “workforce” and “customer base” alike.

    Proper collaboration usually consists of staying out of each others’ faces and hair and letting Holy Spirit enlighten the public uncontrived.

    Real ecumenism is ordinary people mixing where they choose but seniors staying in lane and not muddying waters.

    How often do preachers tell us outright that the good news is that we are losers!

  82. Michael in UK: the D Carson approach isn’t intellectually rigorous

    They may be young, restless and reformed, but there’s not too many brilliant folks in the YRR movement, IMO. Not to mention that there is a vast difference between intellect and revelation when it comes to the things of God. The Kingdom of God is built on the latter, not the former.

  83. This is what happens when the church bows to the pressure of modern cultural change rather than holding fast to the eternal Truth of God’s scripture. The Alliance has started down the slippery slope. Women elders will be next. LGBTQ “pastors” will follow. It’s only a matter of time once the authority of scripture has been abandoned…

    These scriptures were rightly interpreted hundreds of years ago and they have not changed. What has changed is our culture, and rather than be counter cultural, as Christ was, the Alliance seeks to appease modern culture with this change.

  84. Doug Morris,

    Some aspects of church organisation may be secondary in God’s eyes even if among primary ones in some people’s, and that isn’t a clash.

    The core issue is whether everyone is made ready to help their children exercise their spiritual gifts or whether salvation is being made irrelevant and small.

    What makes headline issues – which can be real issues – and on which there can be legitimate views that differ, crucial in a way that escapes notice is whether Saddleback or the C&MA are going to abandon de facto ESS and fatalism and promulgate prayer and belief in providence in this contingent world.

    There is a denomination where there is an excellent lady bishop and a bad lady bishop. At another, where they don’t have women clergy, the clericalism problem would obviously immediately become twice as bad. At both, there has been a dwindling of prayer and spiritual grounds for belief over the last two thirds of a century, despite much recourse to high profile movements and initiatives.

  85. Doug Morris: bows to the pressure of modern cultural change rather than holding fast to the eternal Truth of God’s scripture

    Indeed religious leaders caused the cultural change by shutting out Holy Spirit by sacred power.

  86. Michael in UK: religious leaders caused

    I worded that wrongly. We needed cultural change but by that means they caused the change to derail and lose beneficial effect.