Clergy Sex Abuse Is Present in All Faith Communities; Narcissism in Abuse and a Test for You, and the Clergy-Penitent Loophole

image stretching 340 light-years across, Webb’s Near-Infrared Camera (NIRCam) displays the Tarantula Nebula star-forming region in a new light, including tens of thousands of never-before-seen young stars that were previously shrouded in cosmic dust. Credit: NASA, ESA, CSA, STScI, Webb ERO Production Team

“The Reformer is always right about what’s wrong. However, he’s often wrong about what is right.” ― G.K. Chesterton.


I thought I might take you on a typical day of reading and thinking for me. I spend about 1 1/2-2 hours each day reviewing the news and reading pertinent articles on various websites.

In 2022, Andrew Denney of Loyola University published Child Sex Abusers in Protestant Christian Churches: An Offender Typology.

An extensive investigation into the sexual abuses found an estimated 16,000 victims involving 3,700 Roman Catholic clergies (Bishop Accountability, 2011). It has also been reported that the Roman Catholic Church has paid over $3 billion to victim compensation and related expenditures (Abuse Lawsuit, 2021). As a result, individuals began questioning the extent of sexual abuse in other prominent religious settings, such as Protestant Christian churches.

Sex abuse is present in all faith communities.

Given that Loyola University is a Catholic university, this is a great question to ask. “Is it just a Catholic problem?” Over the past 14 years of blogging, I can say the answer is most decidedly, “No.” It’s not just the RCC. It is seen in all churches in the Protestant tradition, the Mormon churches, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the broader Jewish traditions. Even the Amish communities are not exempt. As I began this blog, reports were coming out about abuse in the Hasidic community. Even the Hindu community must confess to similar issues of rape and other forms of sex abuse.

There are more Protestant churches than Catholic churches in the US.

I chose to focus on the evangelical and mainline Protestant groups for this blog and was curious to see how Denney viewed the problem from a Catholic lens. I still remember when Boz Tchividjian was quoted in many media sources as saying the situation is worse in Protestant churches.

Again, sexual abuse is one of the most underreported criminal offenses. But if you just look at these numbers, they tell us that more children are being abused within Protestant churches than in the Catholic Church. One aspect of that is that there are way more Protestants and Protestant churches than there are Catholics. But for me, it’s important to share that statistic when speaking with Protestant audiences so that they stop pointing their fingers at the Catholic Church and engage more with their own church.

A decade later, Denney agrees with Tchividjian.

From a sheer numerical standpoint, American Protestant Christian congregations substantially outweigh the number of physical Catholic churches and even individual members within the United States. Specifically, the Roman Catholic Church has 17,000 parishes and 51 million members (Masci & Smith, 2018) compared to the estimated 314,000 Protestant Christian congregations and 60 million members (Grammich et al., 2012; Pew Research Center, 2007)

The lack of a hierarchical structure that binds the Protestant churches into a cohesive community may make instances of sex abuse appear more isolated.

Recently, Church Leaders accused the Conservative Baptist Network of downplaying sex abuse in the SBC. If true, these leaders overlook their constant refrains that “Every SBC church is autonomous.” If this is so, how could they know it isn’t as bad as Guidepost Investigations reported?

The Roman Catholic Church’s hierarchical structure allowed for the cover-up and subsequent discovery of widespread sexual abuse. Consequently, instances of sexual abuse within Protestant Christianity might appear isolated when they could be part of a larger overall pattern of offender and offending behaviors.

The growing awareness of sex abuse being mishandled in churches is causing people to leave the church.

Denny states:

a study conducted in Germany found that Roman Catholic sexual abuse scandals also led to increased numbers of individuals leaving Protestant Churches (Frick, Simmons, & Moster, 2021). There appears to be a relationship between sexual abuse issues and decreased membership in the U.S. as well. LifeWay Christian Resource — a research arm of the SBC — found in a 2019 survey that 10% of American Protestants (35 and under) have left the church at some point due to issues related to sexual misconduct and abuse not being addressed (Earls, 2019). Unaddressed sexual abuse issues within these settings have devastating consequences for victims and congregations alike

The overwhelming numbers of sex abusers in Catholic and Protestant churches are male.

One overwhelming offender characteristic that has been found is that almost all identified offenders of both clergy sexual misconduct and sexual abuse have been male (Francis & Baldo, 1998; Friberg & Laaser, 1998; Garland & Argueta, 2010; Thoburn & Whitman, 2004). This finding should come as no surprise since clergy are almost entirely male due to most Christian organizations’ patriarchal structure. For example, a 2010 study found that 88% of Protestant congregations have males as their leaders (Cooperative Congregations Studies Partnership, 2010).  Denney et al. (2018) found that 98.8% (n= 328) of their sample of sex abusers within U.S. Protestant Christian churches were male with only four females identified in samples news articles.

Narcissistic or feelings of importance are characteristic of clergy offenders.

I found this particularly interesting. Within the evangelical community, megachurch pastors often state that they will “change the world” with their church. In reality, in my opinion, the world is changing the church and molding leaders with an excessive need to discuss just how important they are, which may lead to the propensity towards sexual abuse even though Carl Lentz says it was all “consensual.” Yeah, right, Carl.

Denny states:

Another essential characteristic is that clergy that have been found to engage in sexual misconduct have greater overall levels of narcissism when using the Raskin and Hall (1979) Narcissistic Personality Inventory (Brock & Lukens, 1989; Francis & Baldo, 1998; Hands, 1992; Muse, 1992; Muse & Chase, 1993; Rediger, 1990; Steinke, 1989). One’s feeling of importance could lead to higher overall propensity levels to commit sexual abuse. This relationship could also exist because they are in positions of power within the church and exploit that power for sexual purposes.

A Test: Narcissistic Personality Inventory

I stopped reading at this point and wondered how one could discover if they have narcissistic tendencies. One of the most highly quoted sources for such testing is from the 1970s, as developed by Robert Raskin and colleagues. This educational test was to help the participant to know how such an inventory is conducted and was developed from Raskin’s inventory.

‘You may find this helpful in understanding how a professional might assess for such a disorder. Go to the link and click ‘Start if you wish. I took the test and found it interesting. Here’s a challenge. Consider how you might answer the questions if you are a church member (now, or in the past) with a narcissistic pastor/clergy. I started laughing as I imagined this. I wish I had done this back when I was in my SBC church.

This is an interactive version of the Narcissistic Personality Inventory.

Introduction: Narcissism in personality trait generally conceived of as excessive self love. In Greek mythology Narcissus was a man who fell in love with his reflection in a pool of water. The NPI was developed by Raskin and Hall (1979) for the measurement of narcissism as a personality trait in social psychological research. It is based on the definition of narcissistic personality disorder found in the DSM-III, but is not a diagnostic tool for NPD and instead measures subclinical or normal expressions of narcissism. So, even someone who gets the highest possible score on the NPI does not necessarily have NPD.

Procedure: The test consists of forty pairs of statements. For each pair you should select the one that you feel best reflects your personality. It should take most people five to ten minutes to complete.

Participation: Your use of this assessment must be strictly for educational purposes. It can not be taken as psychological advice of any kind. If you are interested in anything more than learning about narcissism and how it is assessed, do not take this test. Also, your answers will be anonymously recorded and possibly used for research or otherwise distributed.

Clergy and pastors look for loopholes not to report sexual abuse.

To this day, I remember hearing that a lawyer at my former SBC church spoke with former law school professors at a local university and discovered that our pastors did not have to report sexual abuse in our church. We had said it was up to the church to report sexual abuse to the police when they heard about it. I still remember the glee with which the church leaders told us they didn’t have to report sexual abuse. I pretended I didn’t see the high fives…

Little did I know that it was a dirty little secret that churches were actively involved in making sure laws mandating clergy to report never get passed.

The Catholics

PBS reported on this in Churches defend sex abuse reporting loophole.

It was a frigid Sunday evening at the Catholic Newman Center in Salt Lake City when the priest warned parishioners who had gathered after Mass that their right to private confessions was in jeopardy.

A new law would break that sacred bond, the priest said, and directed the parishioners to sign a one-page form letter on their way out. “I/We Oppose HB90,” began the letter, stacked next to pre-addressed envelopes. “HB90 is an improper interference of the government into the practice of religion in Utah.”

“Privileged” information or penitent-clergy privilege in the church is baloney.

In 33 states, clergy are exempt from any laws requiring professionals such as teachers, physicians and psychotherapists to report information about alleged child sexual abuse to police or child welfare officials if the church deems the information privileged.

A divine mission to keep their image pristine.

…In other states, such as California, Missouri and New Mexico, vociferous public and backroom opposition to bills aimed at closing the loophole from the Catholic and Mormon churches successfully derailed legislative reform efforts.

“They believe they’re on a divine mission that justifies keeping the name and the reputation of their institution pristine,” said David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, speaking of several religious groups. “So the leadership has a strong disincentive to involve the authorities, police or child protection people.”

The Mormons.

The Mormons got into the act, which allowed children to continue to be abused.

Last month, an AP investigation found that a Mormon bishop in Arizona, at the direction of church leaders, failed to report a church member who had confessed that he sexually abused his 5-year-old daughter. The AP found that Rep. Merrill Nelson, a church lawyer and Utah Republican lawmaker, had advised the bishop not to report the abuse to civil authorities because of Arizona’s clergy privilege law, according to documents revealed in a lawsuit. That failure to report allowed the church member, the late Paul Adams, to repeatedly rape his two daughters and allegedly abuse one of his four sons for many years.

…The Mormon church said in a written statement to the AP that a member who confesses child sex abuse “has come seeking an opportunity to reconcile with God and to seek forgiveness for their actions. … That confession is considered sacred, and in most states, is regarded as a protected religious conversation owned by the confessor.”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses.

In Montana, for example, a woman who was abused by a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the mid-2000s won a $35 million jury verdict against the church for failing to report her abuse. But in 2020 the state Supreme Court reversed the judgment, ruling that church leaders were under no obligation to report, citing the state’s clergy-penitent privilege.

They claim clergy-penitent privilege makes children safer since it encourages predators to get help and confess. More baloney.

Jean Hill, the government liaison for Utah’s Catholic Diocese who helped organize opposition to Romero’s bill, pointed to a single research paper to argue that laws that target privileged, confessional conversations in the context of child abuse have not increased reporting in those communities.

“When you take away every opportunity for people to get help, they go underground and the abuse continues,” Hill said.

But the authors of the study Hill cited, published in 2014, have cautioned about reaching such conclusions based on their research.

Sometimes, religious groups will threaten lawmakers to keep this privilege.

In Utah, after religious officials publicly opposed her bill seeking to close the loophole, state Rep. Romero, a lifelong Catholic, received ominous voicemails and emails. Fearing for her staff’s safety, she reported some of them to state law enforcement.

“It’s utterly despicable that you think that this is all right,” said one anonymous caller claiming to represent a group called Young Americans for Liberty. “If you care to, return my message. If not, I’m going to call you every day until you do.”

The blowback also got personal: Devout Catholic members of Romero’s own family stopped talking to her. “They thought I was trying to attack the Catholic Church and get rid of confession, one of our sacraments,” Romero said. “That’s how it was presented to them.”

If a bill does not include mandatory reporting, even for a clergy-penitent situation, clergy have a workaround and do not have to report.

In heavily Catholic Pennsylvania, 40 bills have included changes in mandatory child sex abuse reporting laws over the past two decades. None of them has challenged the clergy-penitent privilege. That comes as no surprise to child sex abuse survivors and their advocates, who have seen the Catholic Church and its lobbyists spend millions in a battle in Pennsylvania over a proposed two-year legal window for survivors to file lawsuits against their alleged abusers.

In other states, legislators said they didn’t know clergy had a way around reporting abuse. After learning of the loophole from the AP, Vermont state Sen. Richard Sears, a Democrat, said he would introduce a bill in the next legislative session to try to close it. “I wasn’t even aware it existed,” Sears said.

In 2003, amid the uproar over the Catholic Church’s sexual abuse scandals, several states added clergy to their child sex abuse reporting laws, often with the exception for clergy who learn about child sex abuse during spiritual confessions.

The truth lived out in former Cardinal McCarrick, who would later be defrocked for his participation in sex abuse.

In 2003, McCarrick Cardinal said he would tell his priest to ignore such laws. But, unfortunately, he was amongst the worst offenders.

In 2003, as the Catholic clergy sex abuse scandal swept the nation, a bill seeking to rid Maryland of the privilege in child abuse cases evoked a strong rebuke from Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, then the powerful archbishop of the Diocese of Washington, D.C.

“If this bill were to pass, I shall instruct all priests in the Archdiocese of Washington who serve in Maryland to ignore it,” McCarrick wrote in a Catholic Standard column. “On this issue, I will gladly plead civil disobedience and willingly — if not gladly — go to jail.”

Final Thought

I fear the problem is even worse than we could have imagined.

PS Read about grooming in Denney’s article. I think I should devote a post to the topic in the near future.

Comments

Clergy Sex Abuse Is Present in All Faith Communities; Narcissism in Abuse and a Test for You, and the Clergy-Penitent Loophole — 78 Comments


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    Aren’t most sex offenders male across all walks of life?


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    “I fear the problem is even worse than we could have imagined.”

    The millstone stack in Heaven is getting taller by the day.


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    I think we all could see this coming and it won’t be long before a huge bombshell gets dropped.
    There will be indictments, and when all is said and litigated, more than one of the ‘biggies’ (organization-wise in the evangelical industrial complex) will be bankrupted from gargantuan pay-outs.
    The days of cover-ups, crocodile tears, and hand-wringing are over.
    They’ve sown the wind and will soon reap the whirlwind.


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    R:
    Aren’t most sex offenders male across all walks of life?

    I don’t know the numbers, but I’m confident that in contexts in which females (in view of what I will write next, perhaps I should say “anatomically female humans”) have the power advantage, sexual exploitation does occur.

    But there’s a rub, and this is really out in the weeds. It seems likely that some proportion of the population is chimeric — sort of the opposite of identical twinning. At a sufficiently early state of gestation, at zygote and very early embryo stage, it is possible for fraternal twins to fuse and develop into a single person with different chromosomes in different parts of the body.

    It is biologically possible to have an XY brain in an externally anatomically XX body, and vice versa. (So much for that part of Ed Welch’s “Blame it on the Brain” argument.)

    There has been very little investigation of the frequency with which this happens, but there are a few case studies published. This might be widespread and it might be an explanation for at least some cases of gender dysphoria.

    It might also be responsible for some cases of abuse by anatomically XX abusers — maybe the XY brain is fundamentally more likely to do this than the XX brain.

    Conceivably some proportion of the anatomically XX abusers are actually gender-discordant chimeric humans.

    ————

    This question is going to be explored more fully at some point, and I suspect that the outcome of the research will be explosive for many conservative faith traditions. For the conservative Christian traditions, it will create a crisis — for they confess that is it YHWH who weaves people together in the womb.


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    dee: Women have been seen to be molesters in school situations (Christian and secular) and counseling.

    The power differential.

    In his TED talk, Carter notes that this power differential occurs more often with men having advantage. Thus, more frequent opportunities to abuse. And religion or faith communities play their part – in giving power to men.

    https://www.ted.com/talks/jimmy_carter_why_i_believe_the_mistreatment_of_women_is_the_number_one_human_rights_abuse?language=en


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    dee,
    “Read about grooming in Denney’s article. I think I should devote a post to the topic in the near future.”

    Good idea for a topic.


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    As Evangelicals point out – we live in a broken and sinful world which affects us all. Statistically speaking, a certain percentage of TWW commenters have sexually abused others. A certain percentage of women commenters have purposely ended the life of an innocent child in their womb.
    *
    The readers of TWW are NOT sinless and pure. We too struggle with the sin nature and are in need of salvation from ourselves.


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    There are a lot of places — my alma mater, the Episcopal church, being one — that blithely assume they are off the hook. But as awareness of sexual abuse increases, no church will escape scrutiny. And the paradigm that permits sexual abuse, including one in which people don’t report or call out other forms of abuse, including bullying, will get increasing scrutiny.


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    When I look back at my experiences in evangelicalism, I believe it is accurate to say I was baptized into narcissism (pathological pride). I was always taught our group was more special than other groups and on more than one occasion had people prophesy over me that I was special and God had something unique for me to do in my life. This culture led to an individual and collective attitude of entitlement that undermined reality. Just think of the entitlement that leads to a massive group of people who, after their candidate loses a presidential election, decide to ignore reality and insist on the fantasy of a stolen election or worse.

    All of it was a slow erosion of my autonomy and the collective autonomy of the group. We no longer governed ourselves but were subjugated to the whims of our leaders who claimed, “God told me…”. We never questioned. We never thought. We never observed. We obeyed. Why? Because we were special and our leaders were special and we were special for recognizing our leaders were special. All of this specialness, we believed, would one day be vindicated by God granting us a great revival. Everyone who said different was demonic.

    Even though Jeremiah’s warning about the deceitfulness of the human heart has been used to control people so many times, it’s still true. I marvel at my capacity for self-deception.

    Jon Atack, an influential ex-Scientologist, was told by a friend that, after all the work Atack had done exposing Scientoloty and other cults, he must be relieved to know he’ll never be deceived again.

    “The opposite,” Atack replied, “I know that I will always be susceptible to deception.”


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    Muff Potter:

    I think we all could see this coming and it won’t be long before a huge bombshell gets dropped.
    There will be indictments, and when all is said and litigated, more than one of the ‘biggies’ (organization-wise in the evangelical industrial complex) will be bankrupted from gargantuan pay-outs.
    The days of cover-ups, crocodile tears, and hand-wringing are over.
    They’ve sown the wind and will soon reap the whirlwind.

    It’s been 22 years since “Spotlight” and while there have been notable successes (such as giving a one year window for people to sue on cases that were past the statute of limitations), that clergy/penitent exception is just OUT THERE as a big rotten open festering sore. I honest to God do not see anything coming along that changes the situation, but I would LOVE to be wrong.

    And as we learned *just last week*, the six dioceses of Illinois had 451 priests and religious who abused 1,997 children and about 150 of those people had never been reported to the cops. That’s just six of the 194 Catholic dioceses in the USA, and you know not every abuse got reported or is known.

    I live in Arizona, and the church formerly known as Mormon won a case in April where the clergy/penitent privilege was upheld with regards to answering certain questions. So yeah, it was perfectly OK for successive church leaders to know that a dad was sexually assaulting his young daughter, and then he switched over to her baby sister. Yes, it’s completely sick.

    https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-child-sex-abuse-e02ae4470a5a53cbeb9aa146ff2762ac

    This guy was arrested after officials in *New Zealand* found his sick videos and turned them over to Homeland Security, which located him. Unfortunately, he evaded justice by killing himself. His wife served a short term in prison for her part in ignoring the abuse. The children have been adopted out to other people.

    I see absolutely ZERO reason for the clergy/penitent privilege any more, because it is being used to shield some of the worst people from being brought to justice–and I’m not just talking about the abusers. I’m talking about the people who were and are covering up.

    And oh yeah, Seneca, we all know that we’re sinners here. Seriously, dude, concentrate on the fact that predators are getting a pass in far too many churches today.


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    Samuel Conner: This question is going to be explored more fully at some point, and I suspect that the outcome of the research will be explosive for many conservative faith traditions. For the conservative Christian traditions, it will create a crisis — for they confess that is it YHWH who weaves people together in the womb.

    I do not know if the incidence of chimerism in humans has actually been determined. I am remembering, however, a case where a woman very nearly lost custody of her children because she (initially) wasn’t genetically their mother when she sued her ex for child support. It took an attorney who figured out what was going on and additional testing to solve this mystery. (Lydia Fairchild)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild

    You all probably have seen pictures of cats with chimerism. They’re very striking–in one cat I’ve seen (name of Venus), one side of her face is black with a yellow eye, and the other side of her face is orange with a blue eye. There are other examples out there.

    As for whether it will be explosive–doubtful. I keep pointing out that the insistence on sexual binaries ignores the very real existence of the many different types of intersex persons out there. Every time someone says, “There are only two sexes, male and female,” they are denying the existence of intersex persons because intersex does not fit in their way of thinking.


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    Not all victims want abuse reported or may not want it reported at the time they first visit clergy. Victims of crimes have the discretion/authority regarding if/when they want law enforcement involvement. Let’s not take that away from them. Requiring clergy to report from a victim source cuts those victims off from their clergy. Clergy can assist the victim to report on the victim’s timeline.


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    Judy Eddy, Let’s not take that away from them.

    I believe I understand that. As a former school teacher, I have dealt with some middle and high school students who had been abused. I am very much aware of the trauma these kids experienced. One of my students just fell to pieces in the middle of class.

    But, how many more people….children, may fall prey to the same predator because no one reported the crime. How many more lives will be destroyed?
    How would you feel if your child… or grandchild… was victimized by a monster that some clergyman was fully aware of 5 years ago?


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I believe I understand that. As a former school teacher, I have dealt with some middle and high school students who had been abused.

    In a lot of the Fandoms I’ve been involved with (especially Furries), a LOT of first-generation fen came out of abusive backgrounds.

    One of my writing partners (the clergyman) has online-counseled some messed-up Furries. He said every one of them had a literally Hellish abuse experience growing up (and he does not use the word “Hellish” lightly). If the abuse didn’t come from family, it came from school. Or both. He said in those cases, going Furry was a matter of survival – “Obsessing over upright talking animals is better than sucking a load out of your father’s shotgun.”

    My other writing partner (the self-educated son of a steelworker) got it from both directions (school and family) while growing up low-end autistic (also common among various fandoms). He is barely functional and very fragile, phoning me up for two hours every week just to have someone to talk to.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    The self-educated son of a steelworker is also one of the hottest raw writing talents I have run across in over 40 years of being in various creative fandoms. We have co-written probably half a million words of various Furry and fanfiction. And he is so beaten down by the abuse that happened to him growing up that he has a VERY hard time motivating himself to do it. Instead, he seems to be constantly apologizing to everyone for even existing.

    Our collaborations include five My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic fanfics (3 full-length novels and 2 novelette) and a couple sword-and-sorcery pieces (including two Macahuitl-and-Nahualli set in a Furry pre-Columbian Mexico). If this was the 1930s, his Balam of the Fifth Sun would be giving Bob Howard’s Conan a run for his money through the pages of Weird Tales. We has a whole series planned out, which I’m trying to get him to restart – but it’s an uphill fight.


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    Ava Aaronson: “Read about grooming in Denney’s article. I think I should devote a post to the topic in the near future.”

    “Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing”, a video that came up on YouTube’ Sacred Algorithm this week:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpWSntxxiZw


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: As for whether it will be explosive–doubtful. I keep pointing out that the insistence on sexual binaries ignores the very real existence of the many different types of intersex persons out there.

    And the Chrisitanese obsession with Pelvic Issues (as intense as any nymphomaniac, if not more so) sure doesn’t help. I have only seen that level of tunnel vision on meat that can go into motion in the dark fringe of Furry Fandom.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I believe I understand that. As a former school teacher, I have dealt with some middle and high school students who had been abused. I am very much aware of the trauma these kids experienced. One of my students just fell to pieces in the middle of class.
    But, how many more people….children, may fall prey to the same predator because no one reported the crime. How many more lives will be destroyed?
    How would you feel if your child… or grandchild… was victimized by a monster that some clergyman was fully aware of 5 years ago?

    https://youtu.be/nLh5vbBLpxI


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Even as a math teacher, I had to meet with counselors and law enforcement several times. I’ve seen how those abused students behave and relate with their friends in school on a daily basis….. and how the students that knew the truth behaved with them.
    Those students who were living in abusive environments seemed to have a desire, a need, to disconnect from the real world. I can’t say that I blame them. In most cases, imagination is the only means of escape.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: couple sword-and-sorcery pieces (including two Macahuitl-and-Nahualli set in a Furry pre-Columbian Mexico). If this was the 1930s, his Balam of the Fifth Sun would be giving Bob Howard’s Conan a run for his money through the pages of Weird Tales. We has a whole series planned out, which I’m trying to get him to restart – but it’s an uphill fight.

    I’d be interested in reading this. There’s not enough “Macahuitl-and-Nahualli” in fantasy. It’s such a different mindset from European pastiches. (Yes, I’ve read Aliette de Bodard’s books. I want more.)


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    Paul K,

    Paul-
    You have described my experience in detail! Coming out of that is like being shaken awake. I go about my days now, I’m fine on the outside, but really just adrift on the inside. I was so immersed in that for 30 years. I’m ashamed when I look back on the gross spiritual pride I operated in most days. I don’t know who the real Jesus is anymore.

    Yeah, everyone was told they were special, special, special.

    I want to find a community of believers again where no one is so extra-special (SPE-SHUL, as HUG says), but I’m terrified I’ll unknowingly fall into some religious trap and won’t realize it till it’s too late again.


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    I am very wary if I hear a Roman Catholic say anything about comparisons with other denominations.
    This is because, several decades into the scandal which shows no sign of abating, two particularly dangerous narratives have arisen (at least I’ve heard them expressed in both Britain and Ireland:
    1. We’re no worse than anyone else
    And
    2. It’s in the past.
    The lack of hierarchical structure that you’ve identified as a problem in the churches you cover in this post works the other way round: the reality is that the entire hierarchy of the RC church covered up and facilitated abuse for decades and its international nature means that abusers have been shuffled round internationally. The ‘missions’ have barely begun to reveal their secrets yet, but there are loads of instances of problematic priests being assigned away from first world countries. USA to South America was a common route, as was Europe to pretty well anywhere you can name.


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    Paul K: I believe it is accurate to say I was baptized into narcissism (pathological pride). I was always taught our group was more special than other groups

    A fascinating insight, thank you. I had of course thought the attitude of being special would attract narcissists but not thought to identify the two.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: There’s not enough “Macahuitl-and-Nahualli” in fantasy. It’s such a different mindset from European pastiches.

    Not sure how I can contact you. I’m not on any social media, just email, and I can’t put my address out in a public space like this. Maybe Dee could send you my email address? If so, make sure to identify yourself as “Muslin” in the subject line. I get so much spam leaking through my spam filters that I near-automatically mark Spam on any address I don’t recognize.

    Some time ago I ran into one “Elves, Dwarves, etc” too many and started seeking out and encouraging other fantasy backgrounds than Tolkien in a Blender.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Maybe Dee could send you my email address? If so, make sure to identify yourself as “Muslin” in the subject line.

    I’ll drop Dee a note. Thanks! I live in the ancestral lands of the Hohokam people and often I think of them, their incredible canals and imagine what the land was like 800 years ago. Not far from my house is a Hohokam ruin, including a ball court. And someday I hope to get up to this museum in Blanding, Utah, which has a several hundred year old, mostly complete, turkey feather blanket. They raised turkeys for blankets! Kind of amazing to think about.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I see absolutely ZERO reason for the clergy/penitent privilege any more, because it is being used to shield some of the worst people from being brought to justice–and I’m not just talking about the abusers. I’m talking about the people who were and are covering up.

    I agree, and it’s time to change the law.
    Change it so that clergy ARE REQUIRED by law to report child sex abuse to Law Enforcement, and if thay don’t, they can be charged with complicity.


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    Ariel,

    I am far from “healed enough” (credit for this phrase goes to post-cult recovery counselor Gillie Jenkinson) but these are some resources that have helped me:
    – “Simply Jesus” by NT Wright
    – “Trauma and Recovery” by Judith Herman
    – “Combating Cult Mind Control” by Steven Hassan
    – Professional counseling with counselors familiar with evangelicalism
    – “Untangled Faith” podcast (episode #75 with Lori Anne Thompson)

    A couple evangelical groups I was involved in I consider cults, but even healthier expressions of evangelicalism were rife with thought reform and authoritarian control.

    All the best to you!


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    John Berry,

    If you have the inclination, check out Dr. Les Carter’s videos and podcasts on narcissism. Though he focuses a lot on interpersonal relationships, it’s like he is explaining the entire culture of evangelical leadership and followership. I have no doubt it applies to many other sects of Christianity and religions as well.


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    Paul K: I was always taught our group was more special than other groups

    The heart of the Reformation. Note the statement: “I was always taught … ” Someone, therefore, teaches this most-special-are-we theology.

    Every reform and denom and reinvention perceives itself as more special than the last.

    In truth, Hebrews 11 and 12 traces the Faithful throughout all generations with neither a label nor a leader, except they are faithful.

    Leaders and labels do not a disciple make. Leaders and labels comprise an org, a grand org. Loyalty to the org, not Jesus, is idolatry, which is the Golden Calf of doing “church”.

    “Every day people are straying from the church and going back to God.” (Lenny Bruce, 1972)


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    And the latest…see Julie Roys story about several Chi Alpha chapters (college ministry of the Assemblies of God on campus) in Texas involving one of their college ministers, that minister’s sons , and grooming of college students, along with another man who is A CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER who was allowed easy access to the sons and the college men…Lord Jesus, help us.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    I’ve spent my church life hearing, “ I was Baptist born. I was Baptist bred. And when I die, I’ll be Baptist dead.”
    I don’t remember ever seeing that verse in the Bible, though.


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    senecagriggs: As Evangelicals point out – we live in a broken and sinful world which affects us all. Statistically speaking, a certain percentage of TWW commenters have sexually abused others. A certain percentage of women commenters have purposely ended the life of an innocent child in their womb.
    *
    The readers of TWW are NOT sinless and pure. We too struggle with the sin nature and are in need of salvation from ourselves

    Whatever. God is doing f.a. about it and the organizations that represent him are worse. Another priest in one of our northern communities assaulted a child and there may be more victims.

    The vending machine at work dispensed 2 bags of potato chips. I ate them both. Oh, Jesus, please forgive me!

    Not in the same league of sin as abusers, not even close.

    “Salvation”…meh.

    Everyone wants to avoid their chestnuts roasting on an open fire for all eternity. It’s the most selfish reason for doing good I can think of.

    If I go to heck, I’m sent there by the biggest hypocrite in the universe.

    Oh yeah, I enjoyed the chips
    Praise be.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “I was Baptist born. I was Baptist bred. And when I die, I’ll be Baptist dead.”

    TBH, what does that even mean?


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    When we were introduced to the LCMS our pastor made clear he would never violate private confession by turning in an abuser. He told us he would make sure the abuse stopped but never was clear how he would do that without violating the “sanctity of the confessional.”

    My pushback fell on deaf ears.


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    Ava Aaronson: Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “I was Baptist born. I was Baptist bred. And when I die, I’ll be Baptist dead.”

    TBH, what does that even mean?

    That obviously means being Baptist is more important than being any other religious expression on planet Earth. Being Baptist means being at the top of the heap, more important than other believers in a community. Being Baptist means holding absolute truth. Being Baptist means being first in line in eternity, securing the best mansion that heaven has to offer. You soak in that nonsense long enough and after awhile, being Baptist is more important than being Christian.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I’ve spent my church life hearing, “I was Baptist born. I was Baptist bred. And when I die, I’ll be Baptist dead.”

    Don’t tell those folks that Jesus was a Jew. They will go ballistic!


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    linda: When we were introduced to the LCMS our pastor made clear he would never violate private confession by turning in an abuser.

    When did he say that?


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    John Berry: 1. We’re no worse than anyone else
    And
    2. It’s in the past.

    Out here there’s a variaint of (2):
    3. It’s all Under The Blood.


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    dee,

    “Where a communication is made (whether in or outside the context of a confession) suggestive of an intended and/or imminent harmful act such that the person’s or someone else’s safety would be jeopardized if steps were not taken to hinder the penitent, a pastor must exercise his judgment in protecting the interests of those in danger.”


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    Max: being Baptist is more important than being Christian.

    Idolatry, much?


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    Ava Aaronson,

    Haven’t you heard this one?? ~

    St. Peter greets a man who has just arrived at the gates of Heaven and asks, “While on earth, what was your religion?”
    The man replies, “I was a Methodist.”
    St. Peter says, “Okay. Then, I’m going to escort you to room number eleven, but we will have to be very, very quiet as we pass room number eight.”
    The man asks, “Why must we be quiet?”
    St. Peter replies, “Because the Baptists are in room number eight, and they think they are the only ones here!”


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    “An official website if the United States government

    The present study investigated whether the etiology of preferred partner sex among pedophiles is related to the etiology of preferred partner sex among males preferring adult partners…The ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1. This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually.

    —————-
    The Journal of Sex Research found that homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total number of sex offenses against children.

    This fact is particularly disturbing. Homosexuals comprise just two percent of the population, yet are responsible for 33% of all child sexual abuse. They offend against children at 16 times the rate of the normal population.

    The Archives of Sexual Behavior, in a study of 229 convicted child molesters, found that “eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.”


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    How the Catholic Priesthood Became an Unlikely Haven for Many Gay Men

    BY ROSS BENES APRIL 20, 2017 8:15 AM http://Slate.com

    In a survey of several thousand priests in the U.S., the Los Angeles Times found that 28 percent of priests between the ages of 46 and 55 reported that they were gay. This statistic was higher than the percentages found in other age brackets and reflected the outflow of straight priests throughout the 1970s and ’80s.

    The high number of gay priests also became evident in the 1980s, when the priesthood was hit hard by the AIDS crisis that was afflicting the gay community.

    The Kansas City Star estimated that at least 300 U.S. priests suffered AIDS-related deaths between the mid-1980s and 1999. The Star concluded that priests were about twice as likely as other adult men to die from AIDS.

    So how many gay priests actually exist?

    Most surveys (which, due to the sensitivity of the subject, admittedly suffer from limited samples and other design issues) find between 15 percent and 50 percent of U.S. priests are gay, which is much greater than the 3.8 percent of people who identify as LGBTQ in the general population.

    It’s not as if the church is unaware of this issue. A past president of the USCCB complained about an “ongoing struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men.”
    —–
    Published studies show over 80% of the Catholic victims were male.


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    senecagriggs: An official website if the United States government

    That official website is Pubmed which is an archive of biomedical literature both good and bad. It is not an endorsement by the government of the accuracy of the information. The quote is from a 1992 article which states up front that it is exploratory.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    LOL. Wonder if there are other rooms with other groups that have the same issue – they think they’re the only ones.


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    Jack: The vending machine at work dispensed 2 bags of potato chips. I ate them both. Oh, Jesus, please forgive me!

    It’s not a sin if a vending machine gives you two bags of chips. You have no control over the guts of the machine which spit it out. In any case, just think of the many, many bags of chips that never got dispensed and you’re standing there, watching the bag not drop and get stuck on the coil. (Why yes, I’ve had that happen more than once, why do you ask?)


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    The Orthodox have their scandals, too, like recently a hierarch who got deposed for having a years-long affair, then basically stalking the woman when she tried to end it.


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    One of the things that this blog has pushed me to do is question seriously the validity of mega churches. Over the past 10 years, I have come to the conclusion that there is no place for them. They are concerned with the “3 Big B’s”, Bodies, Bucks, Buildings. Not people. If you can show all the other Theo-Bros that you are building expensive buildings, bringing in more people and garnering huge budgets, you are in. And that is what it is all about. I have been involved in a growing church for the past 3 years, that moved from a smaller, close community, to being on the verge of a mega church. The pastors, other than the youth pastor, do not care about people. They do not visit people. They travel a lot, they speak at conferences a lot, they talk about all the big names they know. But they do not care for those who are hurting. I have specific examples of time and time again where they avoid pastoral care. This is just one example. You all have catalogued more.

    In this context, abuse becomes rampant. The lack of accountability lends itself to narcissism, money grubbing and pursuit of John 5:44 self promotion. “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?” People who only care about likes, pats on the back, book endorsements, glowing introductions at conferences and big paychecks cannot be geniune believers. That is Jesus speaking. Not me.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: As for whether it will be explosive–doubtful. I keep pointing out that the insistence on sexual binaries ignores the very real existence of the many different types of intersex persons out there.

    I think the explosive character of this development (assuming, as I do, that this will be explored more fully at some point) is due to the characteristic conservative (or perhaps this is mostly Evangelical) assumption that “non-binary” is due to personal choice, which can be characterized as sin, rather than due to biology, which Scripture explicitly attributes to YHWH (Who, per the Psalms, weaves the fetus and knits it together in the womb)..

    It will be a crisis to reconcile the biblical prohibitions with the biological realities that are understood to be the Creator’s handiwork (and even artistry).

    Perhaps Andrew Perriman’s approach in his book End of Story? Same Sex Relationships and the Narratives of Evangelical Mission will be helpful, though many Evangelicals will be troubled by the wider implications of his understanding of the meaning of the New Testament narratives.


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    Samuel Conner: I don’t know the numbers, but I’m confident that in contexts in which females (in view of what I will write next, perhaps I should say “anatomically female humans”) have the power advantage, sexual exploitation does occur.

    But there’s a rub, and this is really out in the weeds. It seems likely that some proportion of the population is chimeric — sort of the opposite of identical twinning. At a sufficiently early state of gestation, at zygote and very early embryo stage, it is possible for fraternal twins to fuse and develop into a single person with different chromosomes in different parts of the body.

    It is biologically possible to have an XY brain in an externally anatomically XX body, and vice versa. (So much for that part of Ed Welch’s “Blame it on the Brain” argument.)

    There has been very little investigation of the frequency with which this happens, but there are a few case studies published. This might be widespread and it might be an explanation for at least some cases of gender dysphoria.

    It might also be responsible for some cases of abuse by anatomically XX abusers — maybe the XY brain is fundamentally more likely to do this than the XX brain.

    Conceivably some proportion of the anatomically XX abusers are actually gender-discordant chimeric humans.

    ————

    This question is going to be explored more fully at some point, and I suspect that the outcome of the research will be explosive for many conservative faith traditions. For the conservative Christian traditions, it will create a crisis — for they confess that is it YHWH who weaves people together in the womb.

    Explosive in what way? God does weave them in the womb.

    The concept of a “human hermaphrodite” resulting from chimerism is largely a misconception. Most intersex individuals are not chimeras, and most human chimeras are not observed to have intersex traits. Theoretically, if a gynandromorphic human chimera were to have fully functioning male and female gonad tissue, popular speculation suggests such an individual could self-fertilize; this hypothesis is backed by the fact that hermaphroditic animal species commonly reproduce in this way. However, no such case of functional self-fertilization has ever been documented in humans; many biologists have concluded that this form of “true hermaphroditism” does not occur in mammals, especially in humans. While humans are known to have sex characteristics that diverge from “true male” or “true female,” these individuals fall under the social umbrella of intersex conditions and traits, and typically consider the term “hermaphrodite” to be a slur when applied to them.


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    Bob M: Explosive in what way? God does weave them in the womb.

    The concept of a “human hermaphrodite” resulting from chimerism is largely a misconception. Most intersex individuals are not chimeras, and most human chimeras are not observed to have intersex traits. Theoretically, if a gynandromorphic human chimera were to have fully functioning male and female gonad tissue, popular speculation suggests such an individual could self-fertilize; this hypothesis is backed by the fact that hermaphroditic animal species commonly reproduce in this way. However, no such case of functional self-fertilization has ever been documented in humans; many biologists have concluded that this form of “true hermaphroditism” does not occur in mammals, especially in humans. While humans are known to have sex characteristics that diverge from “true male” or “true female,” these individuals fall under the social umbrella of intersex conditions and traits, and typically consider the term “hermaphrodite” to be a slur when applied to them.

    Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_chimera


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    Bob M: question seriously the validity of mega churches

    Good points. Been there, seen that. Bucks, bodies, buildings.


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    Speaking of narcissism:

    “A group of former followers of Dave Ramsey has sued the Christian finance guru and radio host, along with his company and a marketing firm, for endorsing a failed timeshare exit company that allegedly defrauded customers out of millions … Instead of acknowledging the deception, Ramsey recorded a nine-minute radio segment in which he lashed out …”

    https://religionnews.com/2023/06/01/dave-ramsey-sued-for-150-million-by-former-fans-who-followed-his-timeshare-exit-advice/


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    Nyssa the Hobbit,

    I have not looked into the Orthodox churches since my blog focuses on what I know-Protestatnt. However, I would be more than happy to post any incident of abuse in Orthodoxy if someone contacted me.


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    Max,

    I want planning to do a post about it until I heard about the attack video.


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    Why are Evangelicals are so obsessed with human sexuality?


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: As for whether it will be explosive–doubtful. I keep pointing out that the insistence on sexual binaries ignores the very real existence of the many different types of intersex persons out there. Every time someone says, “There are only two sexes, male and female,” they are denying the existence of intersex persons because intersex does not fit in their way of thinking.

    Yes. This bothers me more than anything. I’ve pointed this out to people (along with scientific notations) and people never respond. It’s outright persecution of “others” not like them if you ask me.


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    dee,

    What is the attack video? Did Ramsey make threats?


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    Erp: That official website is Pubmed which is an archive of biomedical literature both good and bad. It is not an endorsement by the government of the accuracy of the information. The quote is from a 1992 article which states up front that it is exploratory.

    His sources are usually are either questionable or taken out of context. Wait until he starts quoting “the Real McCain and Smitty”, then you’re in for a treat!


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s not a sin if a vending machine gives you two bags of chips.

    Oh, yes , it is… I should have contacted the owner of the vending machine, and paid my $2.25…I may as well have murdered someone! I am but a lowly worm, going to heck for jalapenos and cheddar…but boy that sure tasted good….


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    Muff Potter:
    Why are Evangelicals are so obsessed with human sexuality?

    Because they’re nymphomaniacs as screwed-up as the rest of us (but won’t admit to it).

    Plus the Forbidden Fruit — “Don’t think of the Forbidden Fruit, don’t think about the Forbidden Fruit, don’t think about the Forbidden Fruit…” So what’s the only thing they CAN think about?


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    Samuel Conner: the conservative Christian traditions

    Who aren’t conservative at all;

    Also I don’t think ‘male’ genes link to abuse: I think it is cupidity based codependently on those who caused gthe dearth of prayers.

    I believe many people seem to “absorb” a twin, and a cyst (say 1 / 4 inch wide) may appear from a hip in mid life.

    Please look into the matter of codependency which is in the fabric around us.

    Materialist Manifest Destiny heavy burdeners with legalisms (and their trendy frontmen) stopped praying for us in my young day: I have figured out what was wrong with all the strange “christian” religion around me all my life.

    The fathers ate sour grapes and the children’s teeth (ours and our agnostic peers) have been set on edge.

    Please pray the prayer of Daniel 9: 3-21 urgently and frequently, and simple prayers of any kind frequently.

    Christian leaders discredited meanings of Holy Scriptures, prayer, providence, the gifts, and the ongoing present eschaton (since Ascension). The next step comes from us, against what we were told.

    Pray for just quality of government (non ad hominem) in our countries urgently, and for the safety of your affairs and mine.

    the book ‘Bold Love’ (Allender / Longman) explains how to ‘forgive’ in VERY different fashions respectively:

    – the evil
    – the codependent
    – ordinary sinners

    Break away from the codependency of the codependent!


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    Bridget,

    I warmly support the right of some who choose to call their identity-role “non binary” seeing as the heavy burdens were placed on us all by the manifest destiny dominionist materialists.

    Some people live through illnesses and injuries that they don’t have to talk about if they don’t want to, others of us happen to still be single because we happen to still be single; yet the “morally superior” are demanding roles and “explanations” of their and our imputed being.

    It has come back to me, how grievous the loudmouthed were for me in my late 20s and early 30s. They won’t pray that we shall have companionship in life (which should be coming from a number of people).

    Add to my list of discreditings aforesaid: christian relating.


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    Muff Potter,

    I should have linked you into my last two answers (a few minutes ago). I was there when they started it.


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    Muff Potter,

    June is Pride month. Porn may be a $100 Billion industry. I think it’s safe to say that EVERYONE is obsessed with human sexuality.

    I do ask myself the same question. I think morality tied to sexuality (abortion, homosexuality, gender roles, etc…) may have something to do with human reproduction (ie, how human beings are created and raised).


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    : I agree, and it’s time to change the law.
    Change it so that clergy ARE REQUIRED by law to report child sex abuse to Law Enforcement, and if thay don’t, they can be charged with complicity.

    This is the law in Oregon.


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    Paul K: I do ask myself the same question. I think morality tied to sexuality (abortion, homosexuality, gender roles, etc…) may have something to do with human reproduction (ie, how human beings are created and raised).

    I think you’re right.
    From a sex-saturated anything goes secular culture, to the highly restrictive evangelical ideology (with regard to sex), I think that both polarities tend to stunt human flourishing.


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    If it’s a perpetrator confessing, the confessor can interject at any moment to declare the conversation non-sacramental, freeing themselves to report – and that’s in addition to conditional withholding of absolution. The absurd tying of confession to communion is only resolved if the latter is abolished.

    And if the abused person is “confessing” the sin of the perpetrator against them, it isn’t the abused person’s confession anyway. As to blaming underage abused persons frightened of agression by authorities when reporting, the same sort of consideration should be exercised in “sacred” as in “secular” situations.

    In most of my fellowships the idea was to incite the young and not so young to do something strange (let’s start with “witnessing” – at which I never got the knack).

    After a lifetime of the ferment of the Pharisees we Wartburgers are wondering which way is up any more.


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    senecagriggs:
    https://radaronline.com/p/abuse-scandal-rocks-saturday-night-live-cast-new-book-claims/

    “WHATABOUT THOSE GODLESS SECULAR HUMANIST HOLLYWOOD TIMES! HUH? HUH? HUH?”

    I smell Whatabout and Sealion…

    P.S. Looks like Seneca got too much pushback over at Wondering Eagle so he switched to easier picking.


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    Muff Potter: From a sex-saturated anything goes secular culture, to the highly restrictive evangelical ideology (with regard to sex), I think that both polarities tend to stunt human flourishing.

    There can be NO Companionship possible in either polarity.

    In both, the tunnel-vision obsession on S*E*X takes over and crowds out everything else like a virus infecting a cell. Whether it’s “Yeah Yaah Yeah!” or “Thou Shalt Not!”


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    Michael in UK: It has come back to me, how grievous the loudmouthed were for me in my late 20s and early 30s. They won’t pray that we shall have companionship in life (which should be coming from a number of people).

    There is no companionship possible with a walking S*E*X toy, and there is no companionship possible with a walking Jack Chick tract.


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    senecagriggs,

    Seneca, don’t you agree with me that these phenomena result FROM the prior improvidence and unbelief of “manifest destiny” religious leaders?


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    Michael in UK,

    Michael in UK – all leadership [ including religious ones ] thru out history has had problems resulting from their own sinfulness. My personal a-priori? There is nothing new under the sun. I don’t actually think our religious leaders of today are either better or worse from the religious leaders of the past.

    Do you really think they are different?


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    senecagriggs: My personal a-priori? There is nothing new under the sun.

    On your part is that an observation or a policy? Some of us comment from sentiment not rhetoric. Well that’s just us.

    My point is that they have more power than before through contingent happening. God lets us see the sad goings on in secular walks to provoke us to thirst for renewal among christians and agnostics alike.

    Manifest Destiny was a bad English idea before it became a bad American idea. In 1946 a pope commended the world to America’s care, wrongly overburdening America spiritually. According to research presented by Lerone Martin (while black), Carl Henry and Edgar Hoover found their arrangement a convenient substitute for supplications and belief.

    Each moment in history brings its challenge to the cusp of each person’s initiative. At this moment the world is engrossed in especially frantic button pushing and “dares”. Are your grandchildren ready to pray for the present round of Coreys, or the present generation of women who aren’t witches after all, or for any busy politicians, that good angels jog their elbows?

    The religious leaders we might see on some bonfire beyond could be the ones that taught us not to pray. Or those who taught them to teach us that way. From your or my point of view on 15 th June we don’t know the relative demographics of that. A principle produces phenomena in different sizes according to contingency. The point is for you and me to supplicate for their renewal. Hence my question about your policy. I just keep muttering Glory Be’s.


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    Michael in UK: this moment

    Seneca, Roland Barthes in his essay Loyola about mechanised religion, and Marshall McLuhan in The medium is the massage, did advise us to be at the ready.

    If you are ready to deal with the past you should pray with me the prayer of Daniel 9: 3-21 in repentance by proxy for your forebears in mid 20 th century.