Photo by Aziz Acharki on Unsplash
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” CS Lewis.
I am back in town and plan to write about a few women I learned about in Italy.
Corey Mahler gets the boot.
For me, one of the most compelling arguments for hell is that it means men like Hitler will not get away with their crimes against humanity. So, when I read the following headline at Rolling Stone He Believes Hitler Went to Heaven — and Wants to Take Over the Lutheran Church, I was not amused. The subtitle to the post was even more upsetting. “A nearly two million-member synod is fighting an attempt to turn its pews into a bastion for young fascists.” I had difficulty imagining my LCMS church filled with budding white nationalists. Then I read that the guy leading this charge was Corey Mahler, and I was not surprised. Mahler is a fixture on Twitter, attacking anyone who disagrees with his stance on things like the role of women (they’re inferior to men), etc. According to Rolling Stone:
On Ash Wednesday, the First Lutheran Church in Knoxville called the cops on a parishioner who was attempting to attend services. Corey Mahler — a white nationalist who has sought to transform the Lutheran Church into a bastion for young fascists — was removed from church grounds for causing what his pastor called “harm and division to the body of Christ.”
The move against Mahler in Tennessee was set in motion a day earlier in St. Louis. The president of the nation’s second-largest Lutheran denomination posted a denunciation of agitators “propagating radical and unchristian ‘alt-right’ views” and advocating the “destruction” of the church’s leadership. Addressing what he termed the “most bizarre” development of his tenure, Pastor Matt Harrison declared: “This is evil.”
Several of us have encountered him on Twitter. One person contacted the LCMS headquarters complaining about his comments. Here is a link to his website and a link to his Twitter account. Here are three tweets to give you an idea of his thinking.
One conversation on Reddit condemning Mahler(who is a lawyer) offered these examples:
All that said, I did look into Corey Mahler some. Several people have sent things via modmail or via chat. Thank you for this. Here I see that Mahley has used language like
Praying for the destruction of the Jew (See here)
“Genocide is not necessarily immoral” (See here)
Some weird stuff about Hitler (See here
“Woman is ontologically inferior to man.” (See here)
“All theology written by women is a portal to Hell.” (See here)
Comments about making it illegal for woman to own property (See here)
“What is the ideal number of Jews?” (See here)
In addition to this, one article (see here) mentions that Mahler (apparently a lawyer?) was involved with raising money for a white supremacist.
Lutheran fascism or Lutefash? Good night!
The LCMS’ fight against the ‘alt-Right’ has burst into the open on the heels of the mid-February publication of a damning research dossier by Machaira Action, a new anti-fascist group, that details Mahler’s role the rise of Lutheran fascism — or what it dubs “Lutefash.”
In an earlier post by Religion News, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod president calls for excommunicating white nationalists also looked at the serious nature of the problem.
In a letter dated Feb. 21, LCMS President Matthew Harrison said he was “shocked to learn recently that a few members of LCMS congregations have been propagating radical and unchristian ‘alt-right’ views via Twitter and other social media.” He noted far-right members were causing “local disruption” for congregations and alleged that LCMS leadership and deaconesses had fallen victim to online threats, some of which he described as “serious.”
…The letter comes in the wake of an article published this month by antifascist group Machaira Action alleging the “rise of a white supremacist faction within the Lutheran faith.” The post singled out Corey Mahler, who has reportedly been active in far-right circles for years and has posted about whiteness and “white genocide” on Twitter. Mahler also identifies as a Christian nationalist.
What is Christian nationalism?
Christianity Today wrote a post asking the same question What Is Christian Nationalism?
Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a “Christian nation”—not merely as an observation about American history, but as a prescriptive program for what America must continue to be in the future.
…Christian nationalists want to define America as a Christian nation and they want the government to promote a specific cultural template as the official culture of the country. Some have advocated for an amendment to the Constitution to recognize America’s Christian heritage, others to reinstitute prayer in public schools. Some work to enshrine a Christian nationalist interpretation of American history in school curricula, including that America has a special relationship with God or has been “chosen” by him to carry out a special mission on earth. Others advocate for immigration restrictions specifically to prevent a change to American religious and ethnic demographics or a change to American culture. Some want to empower the government to take stronger action to circumscribe immoral behavior.
The controversy over the Book of Concord exposed the thinking of the white nationalists.
What is the Book of Concord? According to the Book of Concord website:
The Book of Concord contains documents which Christians from the fourth to the 16th century A.D. explained what they believed and taught on the basis of the Holy Scriptures. It includes, first, the three creeds which originated in the ancient church, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. It contains, secondly, the Reformation writings known as the Augsburg Confession, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Smalcald Articles, the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Luther’s Small and Large Catechisms, and the Formula of Concord.
The Catechisms and the Smalcald Articles came from the pen of Martin Luther; the Augsburg Confession, its Apology, and the Treatise were written by Luther’s co-worker, the scholarly Phillip Melanchthon; the Formula of Concord was given its final form chiefly by Jacob Andreae, Martin Chemnitz, and Nickolaus Selnecker.
The Roys Report posted Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod President Calls for Excommunicating White Nationalists, describing the controversy over Luther’s Large Catechism, part of the Book of Concord.
In his letter, Harrison said extremists’ efforts were also the “genesis” of a recent controversy over a new edition of Luther’s Large Catechism.
Earlier this year, the president asked Concordia Publishing House, the denomination’s publishing partner, to pause distribution of the new “Luther’s Large Catechism with Annotations and Contemporary Applications,” citing an “online disturbance.”
The move came out of an “abundance of caution” over concerns expressed about the content of 50 new essays included in the volume to contextualize the catechism written by Reformer Martin Luther, according to an update from Harrison published by the Reporter, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod’s newspaper. The Large Catechism includes Luther’s explanations of the Ten Commandments, the Apostles’ Creed, the Lord’s Prayer and other foundational Christian beliefs and is used by clergy in Lutheran denominations to help explain the faith to their congregants.
A one-star review on Amazon complains, “Women, forbidden from teaching according to Scripture, are afforded extensive opportunities to do just that in this sorry compilation.”
Others slam the accompanying essays as “woke” and accuse them of promoting pedophilia.
In particular, a popular Twitter thread by Ryan Turnipseed takes issue with essays acknowledging “economic and societal privilege” and same-sex attraction, as well as suggesting a Lutheran approach to social justice.
“I have had time to re-evaluate the controverted sentences and found that while some things might have been expressed more clearly, nevertheless, there is nothing in the content of the volume promoting critical race theory (CRT), confusion of sexuality issues, or any theological position at odds with biblical and confessional Lutheranism,” Harrison wrote in his update.
To make matters worse, according to Rolling Stone, Mahler was once the webmaster for the Book of Concord.
Mahler moved to Tennessee, where he’s led far-right agitation within LCMS — at one point becoming webmaster for the “Book of Concord,” the Lutheran Church’s manual of doctrine. Mahler has used that clout to build relationships with what he calls “faithful pastors,” while dreaming of “cleaning house” of the church’s current leadership, and leading an “influx of hardline young men” into LCMS congregations.(He claims to have personally recruited “dozens.”)
In the end, Mahler is gone from the LCMS. But that doesn’t mean he’s gone. He is continuing his efforts and claims to be a committed LCMS member. Harrison did the right thing. I am astonished that this stuff was happening in my quiet denomination. Thankfully, the leaders are standing firm. Here is a link to Harrison’s letter denouncing disturbing ideologies. You might find it interesting reading. I close with this portion of the letter. I highlighted the part of the letter to which I, too, can attest.
We were shocked to learn recently that a few members of LCMS congregations have been propagating radical and unchristian “alt-right” views via Twitter and other social media. They are causing local disruption and consternation for their pastors, congregations and district presidents. They have publicly stated that they seek the destruction of the LCMS leadership. They have made serious online threats to individuals and scandalously attacked several faithful LCMS members. Through these social media posts, even our wonderful deaconesses have been threatened and attacked.
This is evil. We condemn it in the name of Christ.
These “alt-right” individuals were at the genesis of a recent controversy surrounding essays accompanying a new publication of Luther’s Large Catechism. This group used that opportunity to produce not only scandalous attacks and widespread falsehoods, but also to promote their own absolutist ideologies.
Anyone trying to sully the reputation of the LCMS based on comments from a small number of online provocateurs does not know the loving, faithful, generous, kind and welcoming Synod that I have met all across the nation. Our people are delighted to gather with sinners of every stripe to receive full and free forgiveness from our crucified Savior and are not represented by these few men with their sinful agenda.
Good move, President Harrison.
Good for the church in Knoxville and good for Harrison.
If Mahler has not already been, now would be a case where excommunication would be appropriate. Accompanying that with prominent announcements in the press as well as official LCMS medium (website, newsletters, etc) to that effect would be even better.
Good grief. Jesus wasn’t white, last I checked.
He is not allowed to come to church. Click on the link in the first quotes. They called the cops on him.
The outlandish statements and platforms are immediate attention-getting so very rewarding and pleasurable for these voices, these people. There’s a reward for them in promoting these extremely absurd causes. With social media and the internet there’s a lot of access to be highly attention-getting these days. Global attention. Wonder if these attention-seekers will eventually wear out their welcome on the world scene and fizzle out. Or, do they need to then up the ante with even more outlandish claims to last past their 15 minutes of initial flash fame?
This all brings to mind the Netflix series, “The Most Hated Man on the Internet”:
“’That site was about humiliating people as much as possible.’ It’s incredible how much energy has been expended on projects designed to diminish, bully, and destroy people’s lives. One of the kings of such a vile enterprise was Hunter Moore, who Rolling Stone dubbed ‘The Most Hated Man on the Internet,’ also now the title of a three-episode Netflix docuseries about this gross spectacle of a human being.”
Ah, the pleasure in power.
Link to the article with the quote. (Looks like comment is awaiting moderation. Patience. It will get here in due time.)
MOD: We have a rule. Don’t talk about moderation. It creates more moderation. And slows things down. So please. GBTC
I don’t know about other parts of the country, but the Lutherans who settled the area around my high school in the 1800s-1900s were Missouri Synod. And they were from Germany. I wonder how many of these guys like Mahler are all about the German “roots” of the Missouri Synod. I think you all know what I mean.
I personally find the LCMS too conservative for my tastse but it absolutely cheers me immensely to see their unwavering opposition to guys like Mahler.
I’m also going to say that there was a time that people who thought Hitler and his followers were right kept their mouths shut lest they be seen as completely off their rockers. I wonder what happened to change that?!?
“White” is very much a social construct whose definition depends on time and place. Under US law circa 1920s Middle Easterners were considered “white”. See https://www.arabamericanhistory.org/archives/dept-of-justice-affirms-arab-race-in-1909/ One of the arguments used, at least to sway public opinion if not the courts, was that if immigrant Lebanese weren’t white (and therefore not eligible to become naturalized Americans) neither was Jesus.
 Strictly speaking those who were classified as “Black” could also become naturalized after 1870 (Naturalization Act of 1870). It was not until 1952 that race was dropped as consideration for naturalization.
I did note that the church called the cops on him and I noted the president’s letter. I also noted that there was not (last I checked) anything about this on the LCMS website.
There is something to be said for officially excommunicating someone when events require that. But that also probably takes time and at least some amount of deliberation.
I think it’s because these guys (Mahler et al) know how to exploit the worst in us by appealing to the best in us as humans.
They bank on the fact that if they can camouflage the real intent of their schtick with cotton-candy and fairground rides (so to speak), they can make inroads with the easily led.
“I am astonished that this stuff was happening in my quiet denomination.” – Dee
I am most certainly not, and it is not that I am focusing just on your denomination. I am not surprised by anything going on in any and all of the denominations. When I look at Jesus Christ I realize how far THEY ALL have fallen. To me, to be shocked first requires that one puts the particular org that they have chosen to attend on a pedestal. God comes around and sheds light on what is going on behind the curtain. Your org falls off the pedestal where you can either:
Go into complete denial. Very common response and one we condemn here.
Pick up rocks and leave. Continue to beat the org like a dead horse because it failed to live up to one’s high expectations. I see that a lot here with the SBC in particular.
Stay or leave after repenting of the idolatry issue. This is not easy. These problems are big enough that none of us can so much as even scratch the surface even to fix most problems. How to stay connected to other Christians while keeping realistically low enough expectations? How to do good in spite of the issues that you are very likely not going to fix? For these and likewise assorted questions I still have left the questions more than answers.
The easily led is the key for those who thirst for power. Their insatiable thirst.
Thanks for clarification, your work, and your patience.
They’re trying to infiltrate LCMS, too? They’ve been getting into Catholic and Orthodox churches.
It should be noted that the Lutheran Church over the centuries has splintered into God only knows how many factions. Here you are talking about the original one back in Germany. A review of history does not make the original look good in many times and many ways. From Luther’s anti-Semitism late in his life to his support of a violent subjugation of certain people who were protesting at around that same time. This goes way back obviously and while you can find a few Lutheran leaders who were not pro-Nazi or pro-war back in the 30’s and 40’s, they were not the norm. There was a lot of very evil compromise that went on between Nazis and Lutherans at that time.
The situation here in the US was obviously different, but I do note that according to our scriptures, God is not for factions forming in His Church. Some come out of more legitimate issues than others, but as I see it Jesus Christ only has one church around the world. For everyone reading this, you either are a part of that or you are not, regardless of where you do or do not go to official church services.
“Anyone trying to sully the reputation of the LCMS based on comments from a small number of online provocateurs does not know the loving, faithful, generous, kind and welcoming Synod that I have met all across the nation. Our people are delighted to gather with sinners of every stripe to receive full and free forgiveness from our crucified Savior and are not represented by these few men with their sinful agenda.”
I cannot help but read such a thing and remember how many times things like this have been quoted here that read virtually identical but were actually b.s. as they were covering up some evil scandal that has been going on for some time internally at that org. Let’s just say whenever I here any “Christian” org patting itself on the back and defending itself that I am the very opposite of impressed. This time what is being done does appear to be correct, but that is no guarantee that this will be true the next time such a thing is written from the same org.
As I look at the Word I see the whole thing of patting ourselves on the back and patting each other as being contrary to what is written. Reading through a passage I recently commented on I came upon this:
Luke 17:7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”
Think about this for a moment. All of those men in that room, except Judas Iscariot, would be eventually martyred for the faith. They all paid a higher price than any of us, including those that work for the LCMS and the man who wrote that quote, will ever pay. And yet look at what Jesus said to them. No thanks even for martyrdom? Jesus defines humility. It means never patting oneself on the back. We can pat each other, but in the end that is not going to mean anything. What does it take to get a “Well done good and faithful servant?” Apparently never bragging about how great your org is and never patting yourself on the back. Those are not righteous humble acts. Whenever I hear people bragging about their Christian org, it makes me sick, regardless of who, when or what the circumstances are. And the same things tend to be said regardless of rather the acts were good or bad that prompted the brag.
Lutheran fascism or fascist Lutheranism or whatever you’d like to call it was tried from 1932 to 1945 by the “Deutsche Christen” (“German Christians”) movement. To devastating “success”, as everyone knows.
That was the movement that the “confessing church” group fought against (Barth, Bonhoeffer, Niemöller, amongst many others). One document to read is the Barmer Theologische Erklärung (Barmen Declaration) which in some parts feels oddly prescient and appropriate given current tendencies towards “Christian Nationalism” in the U.S.
What is the process for church discipline in the LCMS? Was Mahler disruptive in church services? Was there any attempt to speak with him privately?
I was “put out” of a 9marks church as a visitor for privately approaching leadership to voice my disagreement over the practice of excommunicating visitors who are not currently “members in good standing of an evangelical church.” I am writing a book on the Lord’s Supper, and how Jesus is displeased with this “fencing of the table.” I believe the LCMS practice of closed communion is based on a faulty understanding of what it means to “discern the body” in 1 Cor. 11.
While I find Mahler’s views offensive, I think it is important to follow process and not move to the nuclear option of calling the police if he was not being disruptive in the service.
Here’s the link to the Barmen declaration in German: https://www.ekd.de/Barmer-Theologische-Erklarung-11292.htm
and in English: https://creedsandconfessions.org/barmen-declaration.html
It’s well worth reading, if American Christians want to learn from historical theological mistakes made elsewhere.
Who will be/are the Bonhoeffers of our era?
He paid with his life, BTW.
Confronting and standing up to authoritarians is no timid task, no small feat.
This has been LCMS President Harrison’s finest moment: a firm, unequivocal stand against a vicious and hate-filled ideology that has no place in the church. His letter condemning “white supremacy” was appropriate. He may need to extend its reach, however, to condemn all of “christian” nationalism. Lutherans in particular need to be vigilant as our history includes the awful “Deutsche Christen” episodes of the 1930s in Germany in which Nazi-aligned Lutherans stripped anything Jewish from church architecture and scriptures, condemned Jews and others, and forcefully aligned their churches with the Nazi Party. They saw the Church as an expression of “Volkisch” nationalism. We hear and see the same impulses today which is why Christianity Today felt the need to name and shame “christian” nationalism. Each denomination will face a moral choice: either to vocally condemn this ideology and expel it, or let it slide and grow. In the LCMS, we are taking the right steps.
1. Featuring an article from Rolling Stone Magazine, which hates Christianity is questionable to me.
2. And Rolling Stone uses all the left’s buzzwords.
3. I’m confused about what the standards are on this site. Is there anything wrong with Christian nationalism? Most past European monarchies’ constitutions acknowledged their authority comes from the Christian God. Currently, Poland’s government has dedicated the country to Christ the King.
4. Do people on this site believe that pluralism has benefited Christians in America?
Definitely not those who embrace the forces Bonhoeffer abhorred, and nevertheless claim his heritage, making a nice profit on the way. *cough* Metaxas *cough, cough*
I always try to give a broad perspective, and in this instance, it seems almost all sides agree except for white nationalists.
I have a simple question for you since you seem to think nationalism is a great idea. Would you have supported Hitler, and do you think he is going to heaven?
Thank you for your comment.
Mahler was approached over and over again due to his horrendous beliefs. Some of us on Twitter did so as well. Unfortunately, he knew he would be ousted and is enjoying this process too much.
As for 9 Marks, this blog has written many articles on their unjust system of church discipline. You went to the wrong church.
As for LCMS, they have no church contract/covenant. However, I can speak for their kindness and thoughtfulness when confronted with a situation that would get one booted out of 9Marx, IMO.
Nyssa the Hobbit,
I’m not American, so I can only comment on my country, which as a heavily catholic country used to exile protestants as late as 1730.
Religious pluralism as part of the constitution guarantees religious freedom to anyone and everyone, even to those who are in the majority now, and might not be in the future. Or to those who might change their mind in the future. Would you deny it to them?
BTW, regarding your nick: Reading up on what Mises had to say about Jesus (against), christianity (against) and government-run health insurance (for), you might become a bit less enamored with your patron saint 😉
Agreed. In this instance, like the SBC, they relied on the local church to do what was expressed in the linked letter by the President. It is my observation that the LCMS hierarchy has more influence on the local church than the SBC.
I have been doing some reading about him, and the German tie is tight in this one…
This is all rather weird.
One of the things that has caused me much peace in the LCMS is this. Luther believed in freedom of conscience. This is alive and well today as exemplified in their discovery that I write this blog which was not acceptable in the SBC,
Actually, I disagree with Mises on Jesus and agree with him on health insurance. I have no problem with partial (dis-)agreement. Neither did Luther, when questioned on Jan Hus at the Diet of Worms (great name, in English, BTW), IIRC. Whatever you say about some of the things Luther said or did later (peasant wars, Jews), and who doesn’t …
In my experience, the most ardent Mises fans are also the most ardent politico-religious conservatives. Strange!
It seems to me that anti-Semitism within the Christian church, given that our founders and most of the people who wrote our Scriptures were Jewish, is one of the better schemes of the devil.
Just a few random comments: Martin Luther was quite anti-Semitic. Very much so. And we discovered our LCMS has a large number of white nationalists, of the supposedly Christian persuasion. As to Hitler and the condition of his soul? That is for God to judge, but IF even at the very end of his life, tormented enough to commit suicide, he repented of his sins which were legion and trusted Christ, of course he will be in heaven. Salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. Evangelical universalists would say that he may have gone right straight to hell but will be in the ultimate restoration, saved and sane. Some think he must stay in hell until that time, others would say until he repents and trusts Christ.
But here is the deal: if Hitler were beyond any hope of heaven, we all would be. (Bear in mind the Holocaust is personal to our family as I say that.)
“ Is there anything wrong with Christian nationalism? “
I’ll give you my answer to that by asking you some questions:
Is there anything wrong with Sharia law?
Was there anything wrong with the Spanish Inquisition?
The United States is a democratic republic….is there anything wrong with turning into a theocracy?
Is there anything wrong with repealing the 1st amendment in the US constitution? Is there anything wrong with a government forcing a religion on it’s citizens?
The majority of people in the US who support Christian nationalism push for, or at least support divisions by race, customs, and gender. Is there anything wrong with a government that practices racism and misogyny? Is that what Jesus would do? Is that how true Christians should emulate our savior?
Mr Mahler is clearly not aware how many millions of white Americans have walked away from churches. Nor does he realize how many immigrants identify as Christian!
Great article over at CNN this week about how the current decline in church attendance across America may not signal the demise of Christian life in society due to massive christian immigration:
Fun stuff. And Probably beyond the comprehension of xenophobic “white nationalists”.
But seriously, people like Mahler can’t have read the Bible. Because It’s right there in red letters Jesus instructions after his resurrection: The message of repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be shared in the whole world as a testimony (of the messiahs death and resurrection).
And the disciples were told to be the witnesses of it all to everyone.
Everyone. People of every skin color on the planet get to hear of and follow Jesus. That’s Gods plan.
Have fun kicking against those goads Corey Mahler.
Given that 1) Romans is foundational to Luther’s thinking and 2) Paul, in Romans 9-11, expresses profound grief over the unbelief of his countrymen, combined with optimism that ultimately God will show them mercy, it seems 3) odd to harbor hostility toward either past or present Jews. The more Biblical, more Pauline (indeed, more like Jesus — Lk 19:41) attitude would be to regard them with sorrow rather than anger or hatred.
Sometimes, Linda, people turn to evil so profoundly that they cannot see the way out. IMO that is what happened to Hitler. He dies in the arms of his mistress most comfortably. He then had to face the reality of his evil heart, It must have been terrible, but even then, I bet he thought he was right and howled in protest of judgment. That is why the hell is filled with those who want to be there since they “know” they were on the side of the angels. Instead, they were cavorting with demons.
I, too, have smiled at the English definition of the Diet of Worms.
Social Media and The Patriot Movement (i.e. Turner Diaries: The Live Role-Playing Game).
Christian Nationalism and such infiltrations are a major subject over at Wondering Eagle blog.
Telltale channel on YouTube (three or four channels actually) also have them under scrutiny.
Ever hear of PASTOR Nick Fuentes?
Or PASTOR Greg Locke, Witchfinder-General?
Even Lutherans are not immune to The Crazy.
“INSANITY IS PART OF THESE TIMES! YOU MUST LEARN TO EMBRACE THE MADNESS!”
— Centauri Ambassador Londo Mollari, Babylon-5
Dee, I am not defending Hitler. But I wasn’t there when he died and cannot speculate on the state of his heart. Never the less, IF he truly repented and believed, he is in. I know of no evidence that he did, but if his sins are so heinous they cannot be forgiven then there is the risk our own are. As a Lutheran, I do not accept that. I believe there was hope for him. And for that matter, that we may be surprised who is at the party. One thing for sure, those relying on their goodness to get them in won’t be.
A pastor, now retired, told how he was in marketing making good money. He visited a colleague on his deathbed and saw him slip into his horrible afterlife. The now pastor said it was so horrifying that he decided right there to go to seminary and do a major career change, pastoring but with an emphasis on evangelism.
We hear stories of people of faith going to Heaven. Example: Stephen the martyr.
What the pastor saw was quite the opposite.
I don’t believe the disciple Judas went to Heaven, seeing how it ended for him.
Brings to mind the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
Nyssa the Hobbit,
For the ‘Catholics’ who follow white supremist propaganda, I suggest they are neither ‘Catholic’ nor Christian, as the tenets of praise for the white race (AKA ‘Western Tradition’) above all humanity is NOT found in the teachings of the Church, no.
Those ‘Catholics’ who seem to have been ‘influenced’ in the past and now by the teachings of the extreme far right are not speaking for the Church, no. They are more in keeping with extreme far-right members of the Trump cult who see Trump as the key to power and control to install a ‘Christian’ nation which would bear far more evil in it than anything one can imagine. Look at what is happening in Texas and in some other red states, where toxic pregnancies are not treated at the peril of women’s lives. That kind of evil comes from a place of ‘extremism’ playing to a ‘base’ of misogyny, a great sin against God.
Catholic? no way
something that has no compassion for the wounded . . . that is not the Church, no
If I have to share any afterlife with Hitler, I’ll choose heck, thanks.
Full disclosure, I took more than 15 items into the express checkout last night… I know evil….
I’ll take “yes” for $500, Alex…
Re: 3 — Yes, there’s a lot that’s wrong with so-called Christian nationalism (ie. It’s not Christian). Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world. It transcends earthly kingdoms. Jesus is not an American, nor a constitutionalist, nor a Republican, nor a capitalist. Many of the church’s gravest errors throughout history have resulted from conflating Christ’s kingdom with earthly ones.
Re: 4 — I can’t speak for anyone else on this site, but for me, I think this asks the wrong question. Are we setting out to make life easy for Christians? To force everyone to comply with us outwardly? What if pluralism strengthens true Christian faith? I think being a true nationalist includes offering people the freedom NOT to be Christian because we value freedoms in America. But also, again, my heavenly citizenship isn’t bound up in whether society here is pluralistic or not.
Makes sense to me.
Rule of Law + Common Good + Pluralism are great social constructs.
Heavenly citizenship is the best – as a personal choice in a pluralistic society with Rule of Law and the Common Good.
We are agreed here. Jesus said it would be better for him not to have been born. I sense the same about Hitler, Pol Pot, and others like him. Sometimes I think some willingly tip over the edge and happily find themselves in the land of no return.
Wow. I never thought about that. Profound.
Dee, I am disappointed with your approach that you would ask such a question of me. The equivocation of Christian nationalism with Hitler is silly. I gave the examples of European monarchies in history. ‘Christian nationalism’ began with Constantine who forced people under him to accept Christianity. Constantine is the Emperor who oversaw the Council of Nicaea.
God instituted three forms of government: the family, the Church and civil government. The Church and its members should influence and write laws that germinate from God’s Word. No, Sharia law is wrong. Secular humanism is going to fail also. Sodomy violates natural law, transgenderism is a denial of reality. Abortion is the willful murder of an innocent human being. These are the issues leftists have forced down my throat since 1960. The Church must speak for the victims and tell the Truth. Playing pluralism and trying to find common ground with these people has not led us back to a nation that listens and obeys God.
They do not respect me or listen to me. But they want my money to pay for their birth control, abortions, transgender surgery, and wars. And now they want to take away my free speech. Like when those of us who were against the COVID shot were treated very badly. Dee, I know that you were very much in favor of the shot. Were you willing to protect my right of choice not to have that chemical in my body? Would you have spoken for me and supported me when I was threatened by my County Commissioners, the police, my physical therapist and my Pony Club captain?
How do you figure?
Regardless or the source, a Christian Nationalist govt would be the worst of what we so often see talked about here at TWW as it relates to controlling abuse by leaders – albeit on a much larger and far worse scale.
A Christian Nationalist govt would be a scary proposition.
You need to abandon essentialism in words, which is the exact same paradigm and template of the “left” you pretend to hate, because slogans and what particular package deals are being passed off, are different things. The worth of any church lies in the quality of the teaching on prayer that they are offering their adult and child attenders.
If both American and Christian amounts to name-it-and-claim-it, isn’t that too “less than”? I care about your religion because you influence religion worldwide. I can’t admire your throwing away the worth of your own country. I expect your day job is economist but who are being marketed? Free to whom – monopolists?
Swedenborg was a mining engineer but when his materialist segregationist instrumentalist followers like Falwell Senior, rebadge as “christian” without studying Bible meanings, a very big sneaky thing has happened. Manifest Destiny was a bad English idea (by the way) before it became a bad American idea. Moralising demoralises because to deny providence is functional cessationism.
A clergyman who said that got in the papers for it. He was also in the papers because, when there was a charity collection he didn’t allow a committee to distribute it, he gave everything to only two women (with whom he probably wasn’t “carrying on”).
His speech was salacious but that didn’t get in the papers. His strongarm backers “negotiated” for him a transfer to beach preaching.
I.e the Gospel amounts precisely to pretending to carry on. As if Pol Pot was pretending to carry on.
My family was shaped by the Kaiser. My mum didn’t tell us she had a brother whom she is now last known to have seen when she was 16 and he 12 (they had been boon companions). I thought it was normal when neighbours cornered her in front of me. She was in a bus behind another bus and the one in front got hit by a bomb. I thought it normal for three of one’s grandparents to change religion TWICE; AND that we afford refuge to allies. My dad was four when he asked (at Clapham) “what’s that noise” and was told “those are the guns in France”. Etc.
Where has “Freemarket” been living? Prussians and other countries repeatedly NATIONALISED religion by enforcing mergers between Lutherans and Reformed (trigger alert – spiritual Mengele). The Stott Party continues to want to turn the C of E “evangelical” while Lloyd-Jones was more respectful of the C of E residue. The god that is dead is the god of Bismarck and the slithery William James.
As a mere Cafeteria Trinitarian Henotheistic Agnostic I would hate to shock all you Prods and Romans, but Scripture reflects many different degrees of presence before and / or away from God for indefinite or indeterminate “durations” (payment c/o Possessions not on financial reform schedule please).
1 . Mahler had transcended the private stage.
2 . You gave 9 Marks ammunition. One faulty understanding does not reverse another, it deflects from it: which is what they intended you to do. “Discern / remember the body” means don’t become cessationist. Eucharist was meant to not last beyond events like 130 AD. “Don’t forsake meeting together” meant, for synagogue members, to not drop out of the synagogue.
“Do this” is not an ordinance! In the old fashioned Roman days which we are not allowed to refer to any more, at least sitting out of “communion” was at individual discretion.
Michael in UK,
Further, you yourself earlier distinguished justifiably not permitted on the premises, from not partaking in elements (at whoever’s will).
The one who – according to G’Kar – “made a most satisfying thump” when attacked?
Some clarifying points: I have seen no evidence Hitler repented and believed, so there is that. If he did not he surely bore the brunt.
As to the possibility he could be saved, and if he cannot we cannot:
Bible tells us that the circumcision faction tried to bring that into salvation. Nope, they got told in a hurry that if they brought in any of the law they had to bring in the whole law. Anyone here ever keep the whole law? I can’t. I don’t believe anyone can. We are also told in the Bible that if we break one law we have broken them all.
We are further told God sends the rain on the just and the unjust alike, and then there is the whole parable of the workers. If, hypothetically, Hitler had a death chamber conversion he would be one of those called at the eleventh hour. And we are told that they share just as fully in the payday as those that bore the heat of the day. Are we still angry because the Owner is generous with what is His? If we are in heaven are we not receiving the mercy we were promised? Who are we to judge the eternal state of another? To their own master they stand or fall. (Bible)
Now, I firmly believe we can stay out of heaven if we choose because we don’t like the company we would have to keep. What a sad choice that would be.
But then I firmly believe also none are in heaven without going through the “glorification process” meaning cleansed from all sin, and all sins removed and put away as far as the east is from the west. No one in heaven will know about or remember a one of my sins by that point, so if I meet up with Adolph he will just be another redeemed and cleansed former sinner.
And what a great God Who can one so steeped in evil as to be seemingly only evil, redeem and cleanse and purify and glorify such a being.
But then as a Lutheran, I learned that salvation is all of grace, period, full stop. No matter how bad the sin. Grace, full stop. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I also remember when the gal washed Jesus’ feet and dried them with her hair. Remember when the good people (in their minds) were appalled? Jesus told them the one that is forgiven much loves much.
It may just turn out that in heaven, Hitler, Pol Pot, Dahmer, and a whole host of “evil while in the body” folks turn out to love the Savior more than we more gentle folk can imagine even there.
Such is the wondrous beauty of grace. Free to those that don’t deserve it, out of reach of those that think they do.
And had some of the best lines in the whole show.
Because Every Word and Act they do comes Direct from GOD.
Just ask Ayatollah Khomeini, Mullah Omar, and whoever’s Global Caliph of ISIS these days.
“GOD HATH SAID!!!!!!!”
And after a generation or two in such a Godly CHRISTIAN Nation, the name “Jesus Christ” will carry the exact same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”.
(Except for God’s Anointed on top, of course.)
Another way of viewing this: mere humans, seeking total power over other humans, claimed the authority of God to tighten their grip. Absolute monarchy is an ugly, warmongering force. Adorning it with a jeweled cross only makes it worse.
Since you know the history, you also know about the ugly infighting that led from royal reign to royal reign. You know about the bloodshed of empires fighting for land around the world, and you know about serfdom and slavery.
Wait, there’s a Pony Club?
It would be as brutal a regime as any the world has seen.
Muff–totally agree. And finding out my church had a heap of them well, it didn’t make me want to go back it, that is for sure.
Forced baptisms, forced “conversions”………
There are so many different Christian religions in the US…… how many warring factions would emerge?
Would we have another 30 years war, or worse?
How many Europeans died in religious wars?
Did he describe/explain further what he saw?
It was more than a physical body that stops ticking?
I’ve never been the presence of someone as they died, so only have tv and film as a reference point.
I’m curious how/what he could observe as to what happened after the man breathed his last.
Shock… horror… and blinkers, too
From Mahler’s website:
“ When a girl expresses the desire to attend university instead of marrying a husband and raising his children, she is expressing a wicked desire, and it is her father’s duty to rebuke her, and to punish her if necessary. “
“ Today, women are found in university lecture halls — even as lecturers —, in board rooms, on city councils, and in the halls of government. This is not, as many would contend, ‘progress’; this is wickedness and high-handed sin. “
Note: Mahler has not “been blessed with a wife” yet. I wonder why?
This issue with any of this is that culture at large has lumped right wing conservatives (and even Libertarians oddly enough) in with “Christian Nationalist”
As some one who is LCMS and personally holds Conservative Libertarian political views my concern is that the denomination might go too far with this.
There are a diverse amount of views at my local congregation. I believe in freedom of opinion, however I do not believe white supremacy or any supremacy of any ethnicity is in agreement with Christ or the Gospel.
I’m praying for wisdom in the handling of this situation and that it will drive out those who hold these unchristian racist views.
‘christian’ nationalism . . . when you hear this, think ‘fascism’ plus a special hell for women apparently already taking place in some red states
Question for those who long for a “Christian nation” run on Christian nationalist principles: Are you sure this is not just nostaligia for a country/government that never existed on land nor sea?
Yes, xtian nationalist govt would be a very scary proposition. And, like all revolutions, it would soon start to “eat its own children”, i.e., come after everyone who deviates ever so slightly from the “straight and narrow” as the leaders see it.
Religious questions would most certainly not the only bones of contention (they never are), but they would make every conflict 10 times worse.
Look up 1618-1648 — the 30 years war.
If you read the many stories about abuse at churches here or at Julie Roys’ site, and many others, you will know one thing: the abuse would not stop just because the abusers were to be even more powerful, on a national scale.
Also, as has already been mentioned, the kings and emperors governing “by divine right” was sold to the population as “accountability of the ruler”, but in reality it leant a measure of legitimacy to the rulers and enabled demanding absolute obedience from those ruled – “How dare you stand against me if I rule in God’s place?”
I get your sentiment of being “side-lined” by all the labels flying around from both extremes of the political spectrum. I, myself, felt like I am living in China’s Red Guard/Cultural Revolution era. A personal example is my niece from Canada said that “I am white” just because I am living in US and attends church. She was born in Canada. I was born in Asia and grew up there until late teen. She does not know what I believe but she adopted the perspective from her schooling in Canada.
Anyway, I cannot agree with the idea that USA was a nation that listened and obeyed the Christian God. If it was so, there would not have been slavery/civil war.
Not even Israel, whose God was with them, listens and obeys Him.
Also, the Founders should have surrendered themselves (listen and obey) to the King, because they were under the British Christian political system. The British King represent God. They were in sin, rebelion against the British King.
And, both sides (North and South) thought that God was with them/their cause during the Civil War! Agree, people want to go back to a ‘reality’ that never was in this country, and isn’t possible (with a good outcome), either.
And the Jews would become a target quicker than you can say Hava Nagila.
Anti-Jewish hatred is as old as Haman and it always rears its ugly head.
Although I get the frustration, I’m not sure communists misinformed your niece. I’ve been mistaken for English, Italian, Jewish, Latina, Russian, and Moldovan. Online a lot of people assume I am a man. One online group thinks I’m an Asian teenage gamer guy. To all of them I say, “Call me what you like, just don’t call me late for dinner.”
Sounds familiar. Authoritarian church leaders called and anointed by God.
Truth be told, all 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Body of Christ are an anointing of the Holy Spirit. Each faithful disciple is anointed with at least one. Pastor gift is equally one of 18 anointed gifts.
I’ve been with a couple people dying and going to Heaven. Peaceful. Like saying goodbye and going to sleep.
The pastor said the guy, on his hospital bed, started screaming, freaking out, saying that he saw Hell, where he knew he was going. Instead of crying out to God for help, he was cursing and blaming God.
I’ve heard people (that survived a plane crash) say that when their plane was going down, some people cried out to God for help. Other people openly cursed God viciously. The pastor basically described similar, the latter.
Sounds like Bristol University! (Further explanation on request.)
As that lost song “Moral Majority” from Eighties Dr Demento put it:
“And after we finish with the Fags
We’re starting on The Jews!
We’re the – MORAL MAJORITY!
(They kiiled Christ, you know!)
We’re the – MORAL MAJORITY!
THE BIBLE TELLS US SO!”
— the only complete stanza I remember; that and the song’s first line is “We’re Sharpening our Bibles!”
The song is lost media, its only internet footprint being a Lynchburg-area news video from the time covering how Falwell’s lawyers were suing it out of existence.
A God who is just a Cosmic-level Dictator, an omnipotent Cosmic version of themselve.
So when these church Fuehrers rage and abuse their people, they are just being conformed into the image of their god.
Ava, I’m always a bit skeptical about stories like that. So many of them have been repeated as sermon illustration after sermon illustration that they’ve become Christianese Urban Legends, to the point you can’t recognize any signal amid all the noise.
Limpeza de sangria. Conscience litmus test: do they despite it being officially forbidden, refer to when some people took an as common sense approach to their religion as they liked (and more people liked joining in religion as a result)?
And when God got too old-fashioned, the kings and emperors substituted The Inevitatable Maxist-Leninist Dialectic, “Fifty Billion years of Matter in Motion Leading Inerxorably to The Perfect Society”, or Ein Volk, Ein Reich.
Anything to bestow Cosmic-level justification upon what they wanted to do anyway.
Like the original Blut und Boden movement in the aftermath of World War One, a German “Little House on the Prairie” harking back to a simpler, better, idealized time?
Longest and bloodiest of the century-long bloodbath of the Reformation Wars.
Depopulated a good chunk of Central Europe.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
A close relative literally went out fighting. I didn’t think she was going to hell. I thought she was in a huge amount of pain.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Manifest Destiny was a bad English idea before it was a bad American idea. Kaiser Bill backed Lenin.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
JP II resembled psychoanalysts demanding verbiage in self-pigeonholing. Like in Babylon where a song was demanded of us.
Same here. Skeptical.
A person can make of the pastor’s story what they want – as I’m passing this on secondhand. We happened to personally know the guy and believe what he shared – how he was in marketing, saw this acquaintance die thusly, and was then motivated to go to seminary and preach the Good News. The thing is, he never wrote a book about his experience, or made a big deal about it. He was simply talking one day, explaining what he saw and how it changed his life. He had to convince his wife about his career change, though, as she was kind of surprised. She thought their life was pretty comfortable as it was.
With the people on the airplane, I also believed what they said, although I saw/heard this story on a television interview when someone spoke of their almost plane crash on a commercial flight. The vibe seemed sincere. Again, no books or fame or fortune out of it for the witnesses. Just kind of surprising that half the plane went right into cursing God when near death. Creepy. Hard to even imagine. It’s stark.
Sums it up.
Agreed though some are true believers in the justification having created a god in their own image and some just find it a useful lie.
In the meantime living together on this planet is messy. The balance of individual rights and social responsibilities is a dance. One gets vaccinated both to protect oneself and to protect others [except for something like tetanus where the disease does not spread human to human, though pity the poor caregivers who have to take care of someone with tetanus].
A rather inconvenient fact that seems to be conveniently overlooked. That King and nation were there by God’s hand and were rebelled against – which seems to go against the Bible just a wee bit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Don’t get me wrong though, I am glad to have been born and raised in this nation.
So very well said.
Good response, Nancy2
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Excellent points, HEADLESS
As was once said by Anne Lamott,
‘You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.’
After authorities add word “moral”.
And you know this with absolute certainty?
Yep, that’s life up here in Soviet Canuckistan.
Born and raised into that godless socialist school system. And my children are being indoctrinated.
It’s horrible living with all that socialized medical care and parental leave.
If only there was more religion in the school system, just like the Indian Residential School system….
And, above all: KG III exercised arbitrary rule, and objective grave wrong.
Eternal Obliteration Of Holy Spirit. I And Thou – In Group Scheler.
I never considered myself sufficiently other than the yellow and black people in my native town and thought everyone else was unique as well (I pass as weatherbeaten nowadays for those sinfully craving). Churches were multiracial and then I opened my little books about foreign countries and they were all multi coloured as well.
Jesuits and psychoanalysts demanded verbiage in self pigeonholing like Babylon demanded a song.
My tight lipped acquaintances from Cape Town claimed they were astonished that I don’t lump myself in with – how shall I say – non non-whites. I told them it’s the nie blankes that are asking the questions now (so they think I want to necklace them or lead them into gossip).
I was deliberately and carefully raised to believe I am white, according to the prevailing definition, which has shifted over time. (Remember when Irish people didn’t count as white, along with Italians and many others?) As an adult I realized that some parts of the family tree were hidden. Hmm, why was that? It was to protect certain children in the family from being shunned by certain older relatives.
Consider the long-term implications of that. Imagine being “protected” from knowing who you are, who your grandparents were, because that truth could ruin your life. How many people assume they are the correct and all-powerful race, but on the basis of a lie?
Now I just assume I am not white. That’s my solution for inner peace.
Not sure why you mentioned Jesuits there.
By “nie blankies” do you mean Afrikaners with a AWB triskelion flag or armband in their closet and a Zulu or Bantu in their woodpile?
I’m not only White, but a One-Man Axis Power:
My father’s family was Pennsylvania Dutch (descended from Palatinate or Hessian Germans) and my mothers’ family came from somewhere in Northern Italy.
And because of my prominent nose and semi-curly hair, I always kept getting mistaken for Jewish. Go fig.
Yet before the Porphyria did its number on his health and mind, KG III was historically one of the better Kings – did not interfere with Parliament’s prerogatives and with no hint of personal/sexual scandal like so many others.
Not only the King but Parliament were hard-liners on holding onto the North American colonies, though that support in Parliament eroded as the American Rebellion ground on and on.
Hi, Nyssa! I recognize you from other fora. 🙂 And yes, I agree — you are absolutely right. Both Catholic Ultra-Rad-Trads and hardline Orthobros are notorious for racism, anti-Semitism, and misogyny.
I am very conservative, both religiously and politically. But this stuff isn’t conservativism. It’s the Anti-Gospel. It’s evil.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
1 – Jesuits = among earlier and still dominant industrialisers of religion a.k.a confession
2 – Given where they happen to come from, and the “Reformed” habit of only asking questions and never saying anything to show who’s in charge, I’m flinging nie blanke status in their faces.
This coincided with a conversation in which I pointed out that I have never felt moved – from infancy till now – to categorise myself separately from what some people call non whites (there were some in my home town and we didn’t happen to have “colour bars” in classrooms) which greatly surprised the Cape Towners: they seemed to assume it is natural to self-pigeonhole to oblige “authority”.
When I was away at college some West Indians enthusiastically took me under their wing and later a philosophical and practical boss was Jamaican.
My family were a religious minority within a religious minority within a religious minority (three grandparents converted twice). We are racial on one of our many English sides and I thought it normal for neighbours to harangue a mother with an accent. In classes full of pale faces from age 6 to 16 I was always pleased to be the sallowest or second sallowest (the English populace of a region where I have some ancestry are historically sallow) which was one of the few reasons I wasn’t getting singled out. I happen to like noticing colours which doesn’t mean I hold them against anybody (opposite way round from everybody else).
We thought everyone else was diverse but almost everyone else in fact thinks (erroneously) they’re not.
My family were shaped by wars unlike a certain prominent politician.
Some far-right American “christians” would have have no problem shipping Jews to extermination centers.
Others would claim that they had no idea it was going on.
I think Bonhoeffer once said “When Jesus calls a man, He bids him come and die.”
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Yeah, I know. I’m Pennsylvania Dutch; my Lutheran ancestors came here in the mid-1700s.
What I’m interested in finding out is whether the LCMS has repudiated Luther’s antisemitic writings? B/c it doesn’t get much worse than “On the Jews and their lies.” AFAIK, the ELCA (my synod) is still the only Lutheran synod in the entire country that has.
Also, the LCMS (to my mind) gets stranger the closer one gets to the mothership in St. Louis. East Coast LCMS churches tend to be far more “liberal” than those in the Midwest, generally speaking. Still, they’re not egalitarian – no women clergy, no willingness to accept or even try to understand LGBTQ+ folks, and generally part of a broader culture where white supremacist Xto-fascism finds places to dig in. (Not unlike some primarily Southern denominations that spring to mind, historically and now.)
And I hasten to add that being North of the Mason-Dixon line doesn’t mean that there are far fewer adhering to this ideology than there are in other parts of the country. I’ve had some truly frightening things said in my hearing, in and around my PA smell town since 2016. And especially since January 6th, 2021. In one case I was *very* close to slipping out of a store and calling the FBI, but the person who was saying things ended up being smart enough to not name names.
You might want to look at the Brothers of John the Steadfast website (folks can look it up; i won’t put links here). Especially Dee – as in our lovely blog host. Seriously. It’s primarily run by a group of LCMS clergy out in the Midwest. I suspect some things there will besurprising, even sobering. I’ve checked it out every now and then for the past 10+ years, and still taken aback by many of the views expressed there.
The LCMS folks I’ve known were *not* like that, but then, they were all from the East Coast.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I just replied to your comment, but mine got caught by the spam filter. Hopefully it’ll get freed up later on.
Nyssa the Hobbit,
They’ve always been around, especially in predominantly white denominations. It’s just that they kept their mouths shut after the landmark Civil Rights legislation of the ’60s + the SCOTUS’s 1968 decision in Loving v. Virginia, which put paid to all remaining anti-miscegenation laws.
If there wasn’t a genuine need to repudiate antisemitism in the life and writings of Martin Luther, well… my Lutheran synod (and many other churches) wouldn’t have needed to bother doing so. But they did, and I’m glad.
The thing about EO churches in this country is the recent wave of ultra-right folks who’ve converted. (Though antisemitism was and still is a very real thing in the EO in Europe; ditto same in many Roman Catholic countries.)
All we can do is stand up and try to make it clear that it’s absolutely not welcome and contrary to what Christ taught. But we need – I think – to take a long, hard look at other parts of the Xtian scriptures that aren’t (to my mind) nearly so benign – like Hebrews, which unequivocally promotes supercessionism (the replacement of the Jewish people by the church). A lot of the horrendous antisemitism in Europe *could* have been avoided if some of the early synods/church councils had been willing to hash things out. But they didn’t, and I think we had better try to do so now, lest we provide a safe harbor for white supremacism and its poison.
Well, yes – the Lutheran church was the state church. But antisemitism was so widespread within Germany that I wouldn’t suggest looking solely at Lutherabs there.
As an older friend of mine once said of that era: “Everyone was a least a little bit N**i.” (Implying that it was far more than “a little bit,” and correctly so.)
Dee, might I suggest that you try reading some of Luther’s writings pertaining to Jewish people and Judaism itself? A *great* deal of what he wrote reads like a playbook for Kristallnacht. B/c it was used in exactly that way.
Really? White supremacism is the kind of thing that should have no place whatsoever in any church. It’s a pretty far cry from what you got booted for (also me, though I’ve never set foot in a 9marks church).
Just curious to know – ballpark – how old you are? I’m a Cold War baby and attended HS with kids whose families had perished in the death camps. At least one of them was adopted by family members who made it to the US. For people of my generation, and of my folks’, there was no room for this kind of ideology in any religious institution.
I’m ELCA (raised LCA), so I’ll say “all Lutherans everywhere.” B/c the church – period – became antisemitic on the whole within less than 300 years post-apostolic age. And we Lutherans have a responsibility to grapple with Luther’s particular vicious brand of antisemitism.
Oh for crying out loud! You don’t score any points with this. Especially by defending white supremacism.
P.S.: antisemitism – Martin Luther’s own all the way up to now, in certain quarters – is part and parcel of white supremacism.
The post is about white “Christian” ethnonationalism in the US, aka white supremacism. Like, you know, chattel slavery, the KKK, etc.
I hope that clarifies why people are appalled by the attempted infiltration of a congregation + denomination. And no, the state churches in the UK and Scandinavia operate *nothing* like you claim they do. But you know who did? Anders Breivik.
But antisemitism is part and parcel of white supremacism. Always has been.
See also Kristallnacht and Luther’s antisemitic screeds.
Well, doesn’t that say everything right there? Yet how is it us women can see right through him?! (Rhetorical q, naturally.)
A lot of conservative libertarians are, in fact, white supremacists, that’s why. No “lump[ing] in” about it. This is certainly true where I’m currently living, back East, in the north.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
They had their “Heimat” movies (= homeland, which is one reason I object to its use in the name of a federal agency).
It has a more general meaning in German as well, but “Heimat” films were a mainstay of German cinema in the 30s-40s, along with movies about climbing to the heights of the Alps – and for the same reasons. (See Leni Riefenstahl’s association with Alpinist-type films, for one.)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
You might well have Jewish ancestry as well. There was a fairly large Jewish population in northern Italy, prior to the Final Solution being implemented there. (The novel “The Garden of the Finzi-Continis” and the non-fiction title about the kidnapping of a Jewish child whose surname was Mortara *by agents of the then-pope,* in the 19th c. I believe his 1st name was Edgardo. He was raised to view his own family as anathema. He became a priest.)
As are many people when they die. I think for those who swear and shout, it’s like women in labor. (Those who cuss out their husbands, swear off sex, just plain swear. B/c severe pain is its own hell on earth.)
I don’t think we will ever truly understand the things – other than physiological ones – that occur during the process of dying, especially after people become unresponsive (if they do, that is).
It’s a mystery. And I think it’s really not something we could easily comprehend, at least, from our current perspective, as folks who live on this planet. T
FMM should try the action-oriented ecclesiology of Troeltsche for size. My family was shaped by it.
Scratching under the acrylic fur, like Corinth in II Cor and the Galatians in Galatians, bigger denominations or movements I know haven’t eschewed pretexts for outflanking innocence or respect for knowledge for knowledge’s sake. Like dialectical materialist “spiritual segregationist” Falwell Senior (big over here), the heirs of J Stott / S Hughes, and mammalian-oriented JP II.
Patriotism means defending your country by prayer and honesty, which aren’t very designer outlet. If one isn’t up for axe-grinding in order to get people worked up, one may be viewed as second class.
So viewing everyone as equals and believing in the freedom for everyone to make their own choices in life regardless of ethnicity is white supremacy?? Who knew?
Whose soul did you “market” to the imperialist monopolists? Trampling over the other operatives / animators to steal their “market” share? Or was yours marketed? Freely you allege?