“When you kiss your little baby, You kiss the face of God.” From song: Mary, Did You Know?
The pain that Paige Patterson caused Megan Lively and other women.
Over the last few days, I have contemplated an article in the Washington Post by Michelle Boorstein titled A rape survivor’s careful activism in a place where #MeToo feels taboo. This story is about Megan Lively, who was raped while a student at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. She was told by Paige Patterson, the President of SEBTS, not to report this crime to the police. She didn’t, and the rapist student was expelled. I have wondered wonder about the rapist. Often, those who rape are predators and may continue to commit this sort of crime elsewhere. Is there another woman in pain due to this man? I wonder if Patterson ever considers this. Does he sleep better at night, knowing that the guy is out there somewhere? Does he even care?
In 2018, Lively told The Washington Post about her 2003 rape at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and the response of the seminary’s then-president, Paige Patterson. As a sexual assault survivor, she was not identified in the story at the time. She recounted how Patterson had her describe the incident in detail to him and to several male seminary students who were his proteges. Pattersontold her to forgive the male student, who was expelled, and encouraged her to not report the rape to police, Lively said. She was put on probation for two years because, she thinks, she had allowed the male student into her room.
I had the opportunity to speak with Megan a few years back. She is well-spoken and friendly. I am so sorry for all that she endured, and I admire her commitment to recovery from the pain of molestation and her mistreatment at the hands of Patterson. Sadly, some in her own family questioned her experience when she came forward with her story. So often, the family cannot accept what happened. It can be easier to deny it. Thankfully, other family members supported her.
Lively was receiving loads of critical messages on social media, and even members of her immediate family questioned her account of what happened in 2003.
…Her mother-in-law would tell her God doesn’t want her to hide anything and loves her just as she is. She saw mental health professionals and began using EMDR,
She is not an “angry feminist” and rejects the #Metoo movement.
Her path has led her to reject the #Metoo, which she characterizes as “angry feminists.” In 2019, she was featured by Yonat Shimron in The cost of coming forward: 1 survivor’s life after #MeToo
“Contrary to what some may believe, I’m not a fan of the principles of the #MeToo movement,” she told pastors assembled at the abuse crisis panel in Greensboro last week. “I wasn’t empowered or motivated by the #MeToo movement or by a hashtag. I don’t find power in women standing up and saying ‘I was sexually assaulted.’ I grieve when that happens.”
Lively is trying to walk a middle path. She does not want to come off as an angry feminist trying to pull down powerful men. She was raised to respect her elders and look up to authority.
Lively wishes to be known as being “sweeter” than the angry feminists who seek justice. She was sweet and kind in our conversation.
To her, the movement’s emblems are angry female faces — feisty, justice-seeking types that “I’m not,” she said. “I love to think I’m softer and sweeter, you know what I mean?”
This caused me to wonder. I know several abuse survivors. Many are justice warriors, as am I. Yet, quite a few are also kind, soft, and/or sweet. I think of my friend Jules Woodson whose sweet show of emotion caused many men in the SBC convention to come and pray for and with her. Can one be angry and sweet? Yes. Can one be a feminist and kind? Absolutely.
Also, I would be interested in what she believes about the #ChurchToo movement. That hashtag didn’t get much play in the articles and, in my opinion, should have been carefully explored.
A surprising revelation: Lively didn’t want Patterson fired.
Patterson was fired soon after she came forward. There were a number of reasons for this. Michelle Boorstein said:
In early 2018, clips began circulating of Patterson, years earlier, counseling physically abused women to stay with their husbands and pray, calling out female seminarians he said weren’t doing enough to look pretty, and describing himself ogling a 16-year-old girl’s body.
…She doesn’t like articles about what happened that seem to celebrate the fall of Patterson
I could add on his refusal to act in the Darrell Gilyard situation. I wrote Not Only Did Paige Patterson Rejoice When a Woman Was Physically Abused By Her Husband, He Refused to Believe 25 Reports of Sexual Abuse by Darrell Gilyard. This creep would go on to molest Tiffany Thigpen. So many actions by Patterson and so many victims finally led to his demise.
And I was glad. I wanted him fired in 2009 and wrote about it. I believe that the search for justice is kind because it cares for those who have been abused. We often view words like firing, assuming the action goes one way toward the one who was fired. Do we realize it goes in other directions? In this case, it could have prevented more abuse. It could have prevented poor theology that would influence seminary students in the SBC to behave similarly.
Would Mary celebrate the firing of Patterson? That may be why she isn’t discussed more in church.
The rarely studied Mary might agree that Patterson’s demise was also godly. I have often wondered why the SBC and other conservative churches rarely discuss Mary. Is it because she reflects Jesus by not being a tame lion? Luke 1:46-55 NIV:
My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for He has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
hH has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever, just as he promised our ancestors.”
I think Mary got it right. She understood what was happening to her and told us that things were changing with the advent of this “Holy Embryo.” God cares about justice for those abused by the proud, the rulers, and the rich. Patterson (and others in the SBC) got away with ignoring sexual abuse and domestic violence while playing the “forgiveness game.”
Jesus would go on to care for the abused. He turned over the tables in the Temple. He called out some of the religious leaders by using nasty names like “snakes,” “vipers,” “whitewashed tombs,” “fools,” “blind guides,” and “hypocrites.” Was this kind of Jesus? On the surface, it might not seem so, but I contend that it was. We forget that other people needed to hear this. So many people suffered under the religious burdens placed on them by the leaders. Jesus gave hope to the lost, the letdown, and the looking. The faith wasn’t supposed to be this way, and the leaders screwed it up.
The removal of Patterson from his position was kind… to the women abused under his authority, amongst others.
Megan was correct. In Wilson, NC, a white married woman with children is far safer and accepted in the church setting than a person of color or a single mother.
And that is an indictment on the church.
In a tweet naming herself as the unidentified sexual assault survivor in the Post article, she included a photo of her family looking away from the camera, on a beach.
That image, she believed — of a blonde woman with a husband and two kids, all White, a stereotypical ideal Christian family — would be more likely to trigger emotion and action in her community of conservative evangelicals than an image of a non-White family or single mom.
“I knew if these men in Texas saw this ‘perfect’ family in their mind — I purposely did that,” she said. “It’s sad it worked.”
…“People listen to me. Not because I was sexually assaulted in a church and there is evidence, but unfortunately evangelical men will listen because I’m married; I’m whole in their minds.”
My jaw dropped when Rachel Denhollander was quoted saying she wears a low ponytail because it makes her look submissive.
(Rachel Denhollander) she is alsovery deliberate about how she presents herself in the church. Low ponytail. Pastel colors, not power colors. Shirt sleeves to the elbow. Neckline to the collarbone.
…All the steps we go through to be calm, submissive, meek women,
Thankfully, I live in Raleigh, NC, and women in my conservative church wear ponytails that are high, mid, and even have short hair. Some women have even worn sleeveless blouses. It’s hot here in the summer. I am so sorry that men in some churches are so thin-skinned. How hard it is for women.
What do we mean by words like kind, angry, and feminist?
We load those terms with pejoratives. For example, is an angry woman really a woman who was raped and is terribly hurt? Also, many people should be angry when they are raped. Is a feminist a woman who is tired of wearing low ponytails to prove she is a nice person that the pastor can trust? Is it kind not to fire men who will continue to abuse women? I cannot picture Jesus behaving as Patterson appeared to act.
Christa Brown tweeted the following.
Are survivors supposed to mold themselves into something more acceptable to the men in authority? Maybe men might feel more comfortable ignoring or making fun of “angry feminists.” Still, a suffering woman needs leaders who care less about the uncomfortable anger of abused women and more about caring for the abuse. It’s not about them, it is about the abused. Instead, they seem to seek “designated survivors” who make them feel comfortable.
I think Mary needs to be studied more by men and women. After all, she spent far more time with Jesus than the disciples. One of the last acts of Jesus while hanging in agony on the Cross was to care about His mother. John 19:26-27 NIV. He loved her very much. Maybe it’s time for us to pay more attention to her.
When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman,[a here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
This is one of my top 3 Christmas songs. “With every beat of her beautiful heart….”
I was young and now am old. It has been a strange thing to witness in the American church that the proud and obnoxious rise to leadership, rather than the humble and kind.
It is a kindness to everyone when an abuser is removed from the position of power that enables the abuse.
I agree that removing an abuser from the position that enables them to abuse is a kindness to those who would otherwise have become victims.
It is a kindness to victims because justice may enable them to heal.
But it is also a kindness to the abuser because it gives them the best chance to actually repent.
It is not a kindness to someone who misuses power to be allowed to remain in a position in which he is constantly able to get his “high” of abusing other human beings anymore than it is a kindness to encourage a drug addict to remain in an environment with the constant temptation of easy access to the drug of choice.
It is not compassion that makes so many Christians willing to leave men who preach, lead, teach, etc. in positions which are so deadly to their souls. If there is true repentance, that leader will step down voluntarily, and if he doesn’t, any Christian who cares about him should do everything in their power to remove him.
I think the Bible allows a space for a range of reactions to justice. “When the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.” People are relieved that there will be no more abuse and celebrate that.
In Matt 23, After declaring woe after woe on the Pharisees, who were the spiritual abusers of his time, and sounding angry, the chapter ends with Jesus lamenting over Jerusalem. Though he longed to gather them, they “were not willing.” He knew their house would be left desolate in consequence.
So rejoicing, relief, anger, and mourning all seem to have their place. And I think survivors can reflect any or all of these, maybe all at the same time.
“Rachel Denhollander was quoted saying she wears a low ponytail because it makes her look submissive.”
I’m not criticizing Ms. Denhollander, who has to adopt the protective coloration and behaviors that will allow her to survive in her chosen ecosystem, but wow, that is really alien.
Do women in that milieu just have to intuit what a submissive hairstyle is, or is there a guidebook? I’m pretty sure “low ponytail” is not in the Bible, so what is the authority imposing and interpreting the “submissive hair” rule?
I just got my white hair cut back to 1/2″ long, but I may have to stop by the hair salon and get one, little, awkward spike cut a millimeter shorter. I usually wear long skirts or dresses, and a little girl at the stable once told me, “Hold the gate open for me, Mr. Lady!”
“Rachel Denhollander was quoted saying she wears a low ponytail because it makes her look submissive”
Good Lord! Is this poor woman ever going to get free?!! The “beauty of complementarity” is such and ugly thing.
It might be more along the lines of Paul’s determination to “become all things to all men, that by any means” his mission would not be impaired by unnecessary obstacles to the reception of his message.
RD might not get a hearing, or might be heard less sympathetically, in her church community if she were perceived by some to be an “angry feminist”.
I think another reason evangelical churches avoid giving too much attention to Mary flows from an extreme response to the veneration of Mary by the Roman Catholic Church. This is a hot topic for the Reformers and many modern Protestants.
On the other hand, she might be viewed more favorably by the greater Body of Christ if she expressed that, in Christ, there is no distinction in race, class or gender. But, of course, she would have to endure much weeping and gnashing of teeth to come against the teachings and traditions of men.
:
Camouflage???
*submissive – ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive
Denhollander is an attorney. If I ever need an attorney, I don’t want one who strives to look submissive*
That being said, my hair hasn’t been long enough to wear in a low ponytail since 1976. For the last several years, I’ve kept it about 1/2 inch long….. less trouble, and it look better on me.
Tom Rubino,
However, they don’t get quite so worked up over the veneration of the male saints, just Mary. And I would like you to show me any male disciple who spent as much time with Jesus as Mary did.
Frabkly, I would like to see the male patriarchs pay some attention, just any attention, to Mary. There is precious little evidence that anyone in the Protestant faith has gone overboard “venerating” Mary. I sometimes think its an excuse to avoid an interesting woman.
…“People listen to me. Not because I was sexually assaulted in a church and there is evidence, but unfortunately evangelical men will listen because I’m married; I’m whole in their minds.”
Think about Megan Lively’s statement. She just as much as said that evangelical men do not recognize women as complete, sentient beings…….. they cannot see a woman as fully human unless she has a man to compensate for what she is lacking.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
So, have you ever heard any church and group of men anywhere saying women should wear low ponytails??? Apparently I have not hobnobbed in those circles.
Add anger to the mix.
Jesus was angry at the religious elite on occasion, such as when confronting the money changers in the Temple.
Agreed! It’s there in the quote. 😉
Dee, I’ve been thinking about mentions of Mary, specifically, since I first read your post, nearly 4 hours ago……..
I spent the first 52 years of my life attending Baptist churches, and the only times I’ve heard Mary’s name spoken during services has been either in a direct reading of scripture or just in passing as part of the following sermon or discussion.
As for other women in the Bible: Bathsheba, Eve, Delilah, and Jezebel – at least a half dozen times each, sometimes as primary focus of an unflattering sermon or discussion (blech); Gomer – twice, I think; Sarah, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Naomi, Ruth, Rachel, Deborah – meh, similar to mentions of Mary;
I do actually recall one sermon being primarily focused on Esther and one on Abigail.
Only from old-school Pentecostals (distant kinfolk of mine). High ponytails are “flountin’”. Honestly, it struck me as odd that DH would make such a statement.
I have, however, heard more than a few snide remarks and even a bold statement or two from local Baptist pulpits about women with short hair – it’s been several years though. (Devout Pentacostals still think I’m gonna burn because of my hair, or lack thereof.)
Oh, boy do I have stories. My favorite is when I was told that cross body bags are immodest because they highlight that women have 2 mammaries. Apparently, men don’t know that for sure.
It’s exhausting to constantly cater to fragile male egos and to believe your salvation depends on it. To spend your life guessing what each man will find “insubordinant”. And honestly, it’s not Biblical. I married a man within that milieu, but his ego wasn’t fragile. His treatment of me led me out. Led us both out.
Is there a guidebook? There are several. And they conflict. And most importantly, they are extra biblical and bind absolutely no-one.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
And how many on Hulda?
She’s even more anathema to patriarchalists than Deborah.
There isn’t only one “Me too”, though perhaps a specific faction has tended to grab power. Anyone else that freely expresses general solidarity should not be imputed as tool of a faction.
English protestants do.
Cynthia W.,
Max,
Samuel Conner,
You won’t solve materialistic fundamentalist ad hominem problems by staying within the materialistic fundamentalist ad hominem paradigm being enforced through mass communication (ref Godel’s theorem and McLuhan’s phenomenology).
How long ago or how far would you have to go to find christians who would be horrified that christians would promote materialism? 700 years? Some unassuming remote village?
How long / far would you have to go to find agnostics who think words are meant to have meanings?
Megan and Rachel:
– Is it out of line to see their style as just as much INDIVIDUALITY as Nancy’s and Cynthia’s?
– Their words are surely a PLAY or a DIG which we must permit them
– Paler faced people are just as unique AND this isn’t denying those who wish to make affirmative action EITHER (this is very close to my heart)
– They are pressing buttons BY being seen not to press buttons
Very trenchant comment in the context Megan intends, which is to show up the propaganda.
Deep down these evangelicals don’t see boys and men as human beings EITHER (and they are the source of the antihumanism in the world). It is devilish to imbue boys and men’s minds with the “conviction” that male and female are subtractive. Only evangelical lives matter. Evangelical = irrelevant mini-salvation.
I think its symptomatic of the pretzels some twist themselves into in order to appear non-threatening. It was eye opening to me that secular men often treated me with more respect than Christian men. But Christian men brag about how they treat women with respect. While also often claiming that women really prefer to be loved over respected.
In “The Making of Biblical Womanhood” by Beth Allison Barr, how the Reformation was regressive for woman is traced through historical research.
Cynthia W.,
I’m not surprised by the ponytail statement at all.
Beth Moore has commented that she’d wear flats instead of heels when serving alongside certain men so she wouldn’t be taller than them: https://blog.lproof.org/2018/05/a-letter-to-my-brothers.html
Women must be attractive without being sexy. Feminine enough to not be a threat to men’s masculinity, but not so feminine that they can be perceived as a threat to other women.
It’s anyone’s best guess as to what any of this actually means.
Rachel Dehollander is a bit of an enigma. She is a champion for abused women and girls and yet is getting paid by the SBC which seems to just ignore her. She is also part of complementarian, conservative churches that make a basic assumption that women are to ride at the back of the bus. Go figure.
I grew up in a conservative Baptist church. My Sunday School teachers were well meaning, but frequently ill informed drones. One actually taught that women had one fewer ribs than men. When I was maybe a freshman in High School I had the first woman teacher since I was a young child. She was an M,D. and taught at Stanford Medical School. She taught us the Bible at a much deeper level and encouraged us to question our theology. I remember having deep conversations with her over a range of topics, including ribs. One day the class was just her and I. She told me that the church needs smart thinkers to run it and encouraged me to aspire to be one of those men. I was kind of shocked, because she was perhaps the best Bible teacher and smartest person I knew and yet she was telling me that men needed to run the church. I was honestly disappointed in her.
Many years later I began to think that by encouraging a questioning young man to be a church leader she was attempting to create a mole. She recognized that despite her considerable abilities she could not directly affect change. But by teaching young men she could erode the barriers to future change.
Perhaps some of this is going on with Ms. Lively and Ms. Denhollander?
Wild Honey,
I forgot about Hulda!
Just one, that I recall.
The pastor didn’t say it, but chatter after services was “because all of the men had turned their backs to God”. That was sometime between spring 2011 and summer 2013.
That was one of several triggers during that time period that prompted me to start digging deeper.
The only thing keeping Patterson from sleeping well would be an overly full stomach, methinks.
That would drive me crazy. I’m a rule-follower (I grew up in the Navy), but if the rules contradict one another, they lost me.
Quite so. She might even be ostracized if she adopted an unsubmissive hairdo. Which is what I said: “the protective coloration and behaviors that allow her to survive.”
Excellent point.
If you can get Mary, the mother of Christ, to sit down and shut up, it’s easier to get other women to follow suit.
Notable women in the Bible get very little coverage in sermons. They were prophetesses, judges, liberators, successful entrepreneurs, deaconesses, devoted followers of Christ … first to preach that Christ had risen … mother of the Messiah … mother of John the Baptist … mother of all Living. They came into the world for such a time as this. Yet, they are largely ignored in most churches. Ahhh, but the ole boys love to preach about Jezebel!
I once had an attorney, a short and smiling woman with very long hair, who wore a carnation pink suit to court.
She was also the most aggressive attorney I have ever seen, an absolute barracuda. The long hair and pink suit were a foil. Opposing lawyers and others underestimated her all the time, and she trounced them. Genteel old-fashioned lawyers in particular were stunned and unable to think in her presence.
I’ll add the unnecessary point that my lawyer was not a Southern Baptist.
I bounce on hair length: grow it out super long, get tired of it, cut it super short. And then get tired of it and start growing it out.
News flash for the guys: when I have it long and wear a low ponytail it is not a mark of submission. It is that I have very thick very heavy hair and sometimes a mid or high pony hurts my scalp, so I give it a break with a low one.
Hate to burst your bubble.
And yet they’ll ‘venerate’ Paul to the nth degree.
Go figure as they say.
If that is the case they would be wise not to say that they are doing this .
Then why stay?From my understanding she is (or was) a member of a very conservative Reformed church.
I wonder if that is what she is saying about her church that she has been in for a very long time.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I’m thinking about asking more questions about how the evangelical church views Mary. Last night I was having trouble sleeping, and I thought of Mary experiencing the real presence of Christ in her. Think about it. Can you imagine trying to understand what was happening? Yet she did. Incredible.
I heard that one myself in my very former SBC church.There was an evening for mothers and daughters in which they discussed fashion. i found myself getting hot and wanting to run.
Gus,
Sadly, you are likely correct.
Exhausting!
dee,
Well said and very telling.
dee,
I always wear my purse ‘cross body’ but I had never ever heard that description. It just makes me sigh, sadly
And it’s no wonder, Huldah is a direct contradiction to Paul’s alleged ‘command’ that a woman cannot ‘teach’.
and tight dudebro jeans aren’t?!
Keep Sweet…
Keep Sweet…
Keep Sweet…
Especially when Tight Dudebro Jeans have a cucumber strategically shoved down the crotch to further proclaim to all the wearer’s Superior Biblical Manhood.
I’m familiar with Animal Mating Displays, but these Godly Dudebros are just ridiculous.
Like a Blackadder II Elizabethan wearing a 16-inch (40+ cm) codpiece.
Then why are they always drawing women with impossibly-large gigantic boobs?
I’ve seen some that look like two beachballs grafted to the chest; IRL a woman stacked like that wouldn’t even be able to stand up without falling over forward – Those Things Are NOT Weightless!
“If we must stand only because Enemy Christians kneel, that is Protestantism taken to its most sterile extreme.”
— Thomas Howard, Evangelical is Not Enough
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room,
Christian dreadeth Christ who hath a newer face of Doom,
Christian hateth Mary whom God kissed in Galilee…”
— G.K.CHesterton, Lepanto
WTF does that matter?
The only girlfriend I had was four inches (10cm) taller than me, and she wore her hair in a moderately-short bob!
My old college roommate’s wife is over six inches (15cm) taller than him!
Generally, very poorly. I think it is a misplaced fear of worshipping her. Most evangelicals are unaware that none of the reformers rejected her perpetual virginity, and most affirmed it. There are many good reasons to believe she remained a virgin, but it seems to be a third rail among many – both Christian and non-Christian.
I assume “low ponytail” means “very long hair”.
(Back in the 1960s, long and straight was a common women’s hairstyle.)
I also remember Deep Throat Driscoll enraged at his widdle wifey because she cut her hair short after their first kid.
And putting my Predator glasses on, long hair makes a very convenient grab handle when it comes to physical violence, especially when it’s bundled into a ponytail with more tensile strength than a random handful. Plus long skirts/denim jumpers restrict leg movement so the target can’t kick or run effectively – the only skirt more constricting was the 1910s-era “hobbleskirt” that limited foot movement to a delicate and winsome 12 inches (30cm) or so.
That was combined with debilitating beauty treatments such as arsenic, radium, and corsets. So they were apparently free from the temptation of “muscular” women back then…
From the OP:
Thank you, Dee, for including this song in your post….I’ve never heard it before. It’s so beautiful – the music and the harmonies, and the words are so full of truth and meaning. Very few of the most well-known Christmas songs talk about what was most likely the reality of Jesus’ birth. I was moved to tears….
Difficult to stand up to The Network while part of and paid by The Network. With credibility & integrity, in any case.
That is at the core in addressing violation of the vulnerable in families and institutions. To address the crime with integrity, one must abandon The Network, be it a family, a job, a church, a school, a legacy, a business, Etc. It’s an enormous and life-changing decision and action.
Few and far between pay the price.
Every time I listen to this, I am moved to tears. I plan to talk more about Mary this week and this song is part of the reason.
Beth Allison Barr addresses this very real situation in the opening of her book, “The Making of Biblical Womanhood”.
Indeed she admits to being (selfishly?) silently part of The Network until torpedoed in her own situation. Fortunately, she documented her story in her book, did due diligence in research, and shared what she found with scholarship. Excellent book. Highly recommend.
At one point, Barr carefully lays out the historical fact that women were placed in a more inferior position due to the Reformation. The Reformation was not good for women.
Yes. Pretzels. Twisted.
It’s one thing to go to work with your Game Face.
But with family, friends, and in fellowship? No way.
Women have stories. All women, IMHO. Especially women who participate in church.
The OT had false shepherds. There were snake-oilers in Jesus’ day and Paul’s world. Forked tongues and doublespeak regarding women. Today we have pastor planes, pastor yachts, and maybe soon there’ll be pastor islands.
In “Golden Handcuffs”, Nina Burleigh writes about the Yacht People, who are also Private Plane People. Both are venues for Lolita activity. Hybels had a fleet of yachts. Poolboy-friend Junior has yacht parties.
researcher,
This song is part of Andrew Peterson’s Behold the Lamb album/concert which, over the last 10 years has become my favorite Christmas music. It’s worth a listen:
https://youtu.be/dhu1sjLSlwc
(and yes, I am moved to tears every time I listen to it)
No, definitely not …..and I have a rather vivid imagination.
Mary was probably quite young. She was a virgin; this was her first pregnancy. She couldn’t possibly know what it feels like to even be pregnant, let alone with the Holy Child ….. the Son of God.
To know that the Child who was promised….. the Savior…. generations ago, was growing inside of her womb ….. to realize that she was to be the virgin mother written about and spoken of in prophesies, generations ago ……….. No. I can’t even begin to wrap my head around it.
https://baptistnews.com/article/a-case-for-why-mary-didnt-know/#.Y55IH8pMGhA
Hey y’all, this one on for size. Ugh.
Is this “pastor” saying that most of the Bible is hogwash???
Wild Honey,
“Beth Moore has commented that she’d wear flats instead of heels when serving alongside certain men so she wouldn’t be taller than them
Women must be attractive without being sexy. Feminine enough to not be a threat to men’s masculinity, but not so feminine that they can be perceived as a threat to other women.
It’s anyone’s best guess as to what any of this actually means.”
++++++++++++++
ridiculous.
it’s great to be tall. (i mean, that’s what I’m thinking when i’m angling my head up to make eye contact with a tall person)
height has credibility. (whether deserved or not) it’s a good thing.
i say tall people, especially women, shoulders back, chest out, & raise yourself up to your full height, and then some as you enter any room. if you like heels, wear the d@mn heels.
be all you are, all you can be, and celebrate it.
As a woman who has nursed ten children, that is no joke! Larger bosomed women experience everything from fatigue to spinal curvature, depending on the height/weight proportions. The cosmetic surgery with the highest level of long-term satisfaction is breast reduction.
I wonder if it has occurred to any of them that maybe God is raising up women leaders today for the very same reason.
Just saying.
It goes back farther than the Reformation.
Menstruation was considered unclean. Law required they had to stay in a separate tent.
And we’ll leave aside Solomon’s frat house of 900 wives & concubines.
National Lampoon’s “Jerusalem!”
Starring John Belushi as “Solomon”.
I heard one fundagelical chieftain claim that Esther couldn’t have done what she did without Mordecai as her ‘covering’.
I truly wonder why?
Why would her perpetual virginity mean so much to them?
It would be hilarious!
For the most part, yes he is, because he cannot accept the existence of the supernatural.
Some people get very bothered by thought of Mary remaining a lifelong virgin, as if virginity is a curse or illness. I don’t see any reason to reject the tradition of her perpetual virginity. .
then he wasn’t supernaturally called to the office of pastor … he went into the ministry on his own accord … it happens all the time – folks who are in ministry but not put there by God
She was a married woman. Why would she have remained a perpetual virgin? There’s also the strong possibility that she bore four or more children after Jesus.
I personally venerate Mary, completely apart from her virginity. She was Jesus’ mother. That’s more than enough for her to deserve high regard.
And everyone shouted AMEN!! (or should have)
The ancient church had lots of reasons to believe she remained a virgin. It was universally believed until recently. There is a lot of good information available on the internet. After investigating the topic I believe it makes more sense for her to have remained a virgin. But this is not the reason to venerate her.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Thank you for always responding so thoughtfully. It’s a tertiary question.
Same here, virginity is not a big deal or a deal breaker for me.
That and the possibility that she had more kids with Joseph after the supernatural conception of Jesus.
Just to clarify, corsets were not debilitating for anyone unless they took it to an extreme: for several centuries women of every class wore corsets as they went about their days doing backbreaking labor and things like ice skating and horseback riding. They were a standard undergarment that actually provided support for women’s bodies. In fact, women (and men!) today sometimes wear corsets to help with back problems and other physical ailments.
Also, this was actually more of a good thing for women: rather than continue to labor on behalf of their families and husbands, during a time that may include intense physical symptoms for many women, they were off in a tent resting and forbidden to do any labor. Unclean is not a moral judgment per se, merely a particular state of being that people went in and out of regularly.
My comments on what the “pastor” was saying in his post would definitely get stuck in customs.
A low pony tail makes one an angry feminist? If this is their thinking . . . what a bunch of judgy @$%%%. I’m sure I would be judged on all manor of things that I would have no idea I was being judged on.
What a horrible environment to live in. I was never felt so free in Christ as when I left our last church. It is so sad to see anyone bound up with this nonsense.
“If the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed!” (John 8:36)
The Church of the Living God is a free church … voluntary … no contracts required … no restrictions posed by the teachings and traditions of men. Much of the organized church is on its own, enslaving folks to jots and tittles of law … Jesus doesn’t attend it so why should I? The Bride of Christ and Kingdom of God work independently from religious systems in which overlords rule with an iron hand.
Gentle pushback from here, because the wife is considered impure, and her husband will become impure if he touches her. If anyone on TWW is curious about this, take a look at Leviticus 15:19 (“…whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening”), 15:24, and 20:18. That passage in Leviticus 20 talks about sex during a woman’s period alongside verses about incest and adultery. Leviticus 15 shows that the woman had to make a sin-offering at the end of her unclean discharge.
It takes enlightenment to overcome a truly ancient idea that women and girls are dirty.
Practices vary by society and over time, but this isolation still goes on in some parts of the world. In some cultures, women and girls are cast out of their families, forced to stay for days in grimy little huts. Sometimes they get sick, and even die.
Anything at all can lead to charges of angry feminism. It’s like witchcraft allegations in the 1600s, all in the mind of the beholder: “She stared at my best goat, and a week later the goat died.”
yes
“Jesus would go on to care for the abused. He turned over the tables in the Temple. He called out some of the religious leaders by using nasty names like “snakes,” ‘vipers,’ ‘whitewashed tombs,’ ‘fools,’ ‘blind guides,’ and ‘hypocrites.’ Was this kind of Jesus? On the surface, it might not seem so, but I contend that it was. We forget that other people needed to hear this. So many people suffered under the religious burdens placed on them by the leaders. Jesus gave hope to the lost, the letdown, and the looking. The faith wasn’t supposed to be this way, and the leaders screwed it up.”
Forward 2K years, and same religious burdening of church people going on today, with the hands of Jesus needed now, turning over tables in the temple churches of nowadays.
I can affirm from experience that it IS a Bummer.
You end up isolated and lonely, taking constant flak from both sides.
While the Jews annually celebrate her for her courage.
Faith healer Kathryn Kuhlman (whose public-speaking style was parodied on Laugh-In) once said that she believed “God first asked a man if he would show My healing power to the world, and he said No. So God asked another man, and he said No. And when God ran out of men to ask, he asked me and I said Yes.”
Which is an impossible balance point.
Muff Potter,
It does mean a lot – it ALWAYS did, for two thousand years . . . continuity? tradition?
or what was verbally ‘handed down’ until the sacred Scriptures were written and a NT was formed?
?
https://youtu.be/lMydR6G0U4o
Yes it does, and we’ve come a long way baby.
But nonetheless, the amount of damage to women and girls from times past is still with us.
Probably not.
Let’s face it, at a deep-down level, those kinds of men hate women.
They’re jealous of them too, because women are the stronger of our species, and have a primal power that they don’t have.
I’m hoping your asking more questions about Mary leads to a post….some of the comments on this post have brought up ideas I’ve never heard before and have given me much to think about….
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I’ve heard stories like this before – from women missionaries and Bible study leaders, etc.
But I don’t buy it. Women, IMHO, are not a last resort in the eyes and plans of God.
It seems many in our culture consider virginity to be a disease needing a cure, a curse needing exorcism, or a complete impossibility.
In the church where I spent my teen years, the youth ministers had only one topic regarding girls: virginity. (Except for the seminarian who said we would sell our souls to get a nice dress.) Virginity was the only thing about us that mattered.
The significance of virginity was so grossly and constantly exaggerated, it was harmful to girls and boys alike. Some girls had found Jesus after they lost this Only Thing That Mattered. They were Unworthy, they were Suspect. Other girls were in a constant panic that they might lose this thing, say, to a fiance a week before the wedding—and then their marriages would be bad, and they would go to Hell. Some girls had no idea how the V topic might fit into a date with a nice, well-meaning Christian boy—but they were sure it had to be discussed somehow.
I cannot overstate the anguish and emotional chaos that this topic wrought.
If you want Christian girls to turn into virtuous Christian women, pay attention to more than one thing.
My wife grew up as a missionary kid, which embraced what she calls the virginity cult. It was not good or helpful. I should have highlighted that aspect in my earlier comment. The basic message from different parts of our culture is shame on you if you are a virgin and shame on you if you are not. There is no way to win.
I read the above to my wife before posting and she said it is worse than that. She said it is “shame on you if your nipples protrude and God forbid that your protrusion might be noticable.” That missionary culture stopped just short of condoning honor killings.
Loren Haas,
You were shocked because you were groomed, by men that hated you so much when you were young, to think women hated you.
The war against women is the same war as the war against boys, as a 14 y.o saw in the classroom (after the prayerlessness of the church triumphal had had a knock on effect) when predation was added to the official agenda.
Youth Group:
Music
Bible Study
Camp and Retreats
Volleyball
Missions
Coffeehouse evangelism
Get saved, act saved, get others saved
BBQ picnics.
Bible study.
Music
Basketball
Baseball
Cookouts
Roller skating parties.
When I was 17, I was one of a group of 4 people who established rules for our youth group in church and at church sponsored youth events.
I also played on the mixed gender youth basketball team that we had for a while (starter, forward). Yes, I said mixed gender.
I was 36 when the SBC voted in the BF&M 2000. It took another 10 years for that cancer to start growing in the local, rural churches in my area.
When they changed my world, I changed worlds. I had a blast while it lasted, though!
To your wife, Ken F, and to you, Friend – I send my heartfelt sympathies. I cannot imagine growing up and coming of age in such an environment.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Heartfelt sympathy to your wife, for all she endured. It’s a relief to know that she came to recognize the harm.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Thank you, Nancy2. Greatly appreciated.
Yeah, the wholesome activities in our church youth group were fun and engaging, but also they were camouflage.
I wrote about it on my website (www.wildmustangmall.com):
“Notes grew from writing down the action that was never voiced in our wholesome-appearing enclave: drunken dads and promiscuous moms (and vice versa), boys in forts poring over porn, handsy uncles, gossipy Hollywood-ites at swimming pools in swim outfits showing off matching heels and fancy hairdos, never to take a dip.
“Later, there was the lovely college student with her religion professor, hanging out at the campus bar after classes, then leaving together. He was a family man. On and on, the idiosyncrasies in society of those who make it righteously, but live a shadowy hypocritical debauchery just under the radar.
“This felt normal, really. However, what was troubling as a grown-up was a disturbing criminal depravity that apparently many knew, but no one acknowledged. Beneath the guise of religion or ‘Jesus loves me’ was an undeniable underbelly of the powerful preying on the vulnerable.”
So that’s how I fictionalized the beneath-the-surface realities of wholesome-appearing church – in a novel, “Legal Grounds”.
Wholesome on the outside, church calendar full of fun stuff. Criminal depravity lingering just beneath the surface. Not everyone involved, but even just one child violated by an adult churchman-in-good-standing (that everyone swears to God is wonderful and who would ever believe a child) – just one is one too many.
I’m with you.
It (virginity) is way over-blown and has a tendency to brand young women as second and third rate goods.
I can understand that it was of primary importance in ancient and olden times because it assured that family lines would stay intact.
Male cats will kill kittens that are not theirs, and we’re supposed to be above all that.
So in that regard, I’m glad that we as humans are moving past the old forms.
To me, the issue of virginity, or not, is neither here nor there where it concerns Mary or anyone else, so long as it is that anyone’s own choice.
Thanks. Between her background and mine we’ve had to work through quite a lot. This site has been very helpful for me.
Choice is the key. Versus violation or coercion or manipulation or just plain old snake oil evil lies (Christa Brown’s account of her pastor insisting that a young Mary was the model for submission, so a young girl should dutifully submit to a predator).
Choice is the key. A minor cannot legally choose to engage with an adult. A counselee cannot legally choose to be with the counselor. A parishioner cannot legally engage with the empowered pastor of authority.
Virginity may be highly overrated. Choice is never overrated but often ignored and underrated.
That.
For me one of the sad things about Paige Patterson is IMO the culture he created is still alive in the SBC. Many of the current leaders would say nothing negative about him, as he directly or indirectly put them in powerful positions.
Also, I believe the attorneys for Judge Paul Pressler are just trying to run out the clock as Mr. Pressler is in his 80’s.
I do not think that he is saying that.
This so called man of God failed to mention that Mary submitted to God, not some horny old man. I assume that was an intentional omission.
Indeed. For many Southern Baptists, being “traditional” and “conservative” = Paige Patterson.
And also trying to outrun the DOJ investigation … Pressler has to be at the top of their list.
Tom Parker,
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I think that pastor needs to reread the Magnificat. She knew, at @the age of 14, that she was a virgin and that Jesus was going to change the world.
dee
As for that pastor, one needs to read the predictions/prophecies of a virgin who would conceive.
He might need to do some more reading about Mary, but I do not believe he is saying that much of the Bible is hogwash.
dee,
My guess, he’d be hard pressed to believe the Magnificant, no matter how many times he read it. After all, it is in the Gospel of Luke.
From the opinion piece:
“………Not one of the Gospel writers was an eyewitness to Jesus. The actual writers were not the named disciples but came years later, using the stories, the oral history told to them, as the basis for their writing. They were not concerned with reporting facts accurately, but with telling the compelling story of Jesus, for its inspirational, theological, spiritual impact……”
“……Further, even if walking on water was accepted as a physical possibility in the first century, it is not today, and impugning anyone who questions that possibility as unfaithful, if not heretical, is not just insulting, it ignores the rich possibility of reading the text through a different lens……….”
——-Russ Dean, co-pastor of Park Road Baptist Church in Charlotte, N.C.
Even if the horny old pastor says “I AM GOD!”?
(And don’t tell me a lot of those MenaGAWD would if they could get away with it…)
So will male bears. The killing of her existing offspring also automatially triggers the screaming purple hornies in the female. Like some sort of instinctive Harley Quinn Syndrome.
A theme you find in the better Furry Fiction:
TRANSCENDING THE ANIMAL.
According to my reading of Thomas Cahill’s The Gift of the Jews from knowledge of Furry as a genre, that was one of the major reasons for the giving of ha-Torah.
But Choice and/or Consent are not mentioned in a Bible Verse, so they are Not of God.
“Show me SCRIPTURE!”
— PastorRaulReesCalvaryChapelWestCovina, whenever someone tried to reason with him
Mythologized away from Reality.
Like the Jesus Homonculi of Medieval artistic convention, where Jesus was born fully formed in a miniature adult body. (Which slopped over into centuries of drawing/painting infants who looked old enough for regular prostate exams.)
Accetable versions of the Docetist Heresy, where Jesus was so God he couldn’t possibly have been a man, only miraculously APPEARING to be one. So God the Son remained Untainted by the Filth of material/physical Reality. AKA God could NOT live in the Real World.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Tom Parker,
I am not sure what he is saying. Tom, could you help me to better represent him. Miracles are not outside the “laws of nature” since nature was conceived of by the Lawgiver who allows Himself to make changes in the status quo when He deems it necessary.
I find the story of Mary to have set the tone for the ultimate power differential.
The creator of the universe says you’re going to carry his son.
Is there really an option to say no?
Forever setting the stage for the “madonna-whore” complex to completely mess up relationships the world over.
Mary assented, and her life demonstrates her acceptance of her role. Read the words of the Magnificat and tell me she wasn’t excited about this honor.
Yes, she truly could have said no. The fact that she did not is what makes her so special and blessed. One of the many things remarkable about Mary was how she did not show fear when the angel announced the news. Everyone else in the Bible pretty much falls apart when this happens.
Christian good Common Sense, IMHO. I like this articulation.
Ya know, sometimes things so profound are stated so plain and simple, it puts heart and mind at peace.
Apologists, smallologists. Not needed. Especially the ones with “massage” parlors.
The “when He deems it necessary” is so important. When a person goes through things, miracles are prayed for as well as the wisdom of God … what He deems necessary.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Rev. 3.20. Jesus politely knocks, then waits, and then He MAY be invited in. He enters only by invitation.
Gentlemen Jesus. Except with the money-changers in the Temple and the woeful Scribes and Pharisee religious elite … vipers, whitewashed tombs (or lipstick on a pig), etc.
Jack,
One other point: Every Jewish woman hoped to bear the Messiah. Even though she was young, she was of age to assent to marriage, 14-15 was the common age for marriage in those days. They were allowed to say “No” to betrothal as well. They were offered a cup of wine. If they drank it, they agreed. If they refused, the betrothal did not happen.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
They do and they largely get away with it.
Snake oil man that he was, the “pastor”.
dee,
A few questions keeps flittering though my sometimes feeble little mind:
How much of the Bible does this “pastor” believe we could just black-out with a chisel-point Sharpie???
If a considerable portion of the four gospels are questionable, how much of the rest of the Bible is to be believed.
We’re the Israelites really led by a pillar of fire?
Was Elijah carried to Heaven in a chariot of fire?
Did Thomas really touch our Savior’s nail-scarred hands?
Did Jesus’ physical body really rise from the grave?…….
Ah, I have so may questions I would like to ask this pastor!
dee,
THIS !!!
You’re onto something and I was there at a crucial point when I was 14. The UK is centralised while the US (if you’re there) is not.
The mimetic you pinpoint was – in some other cultures – a variation on something inherited from some prominent old style religions (themselves degenerated versions of earlier revelations e.g to Adam; Wilhelm Schmidt looked into this).
In the 1960s in England, major trendy religious blocs ceased teaching their folks prayer.
In 1969 Ministry of Education trained teachers held fake “discussions” around leading questions promoting sex before marriage – which immediately makes all young people into predators and predated (and led to industrial scale abortions for which the blame gets shifted wrongly onto mothers, or junior nurses short of other work). (Our head of RE department who had spearheaded this left shortly afterwards over having carried on with a boy. He had also supervised Christian Union which remained prone.)
There may be a tendency among complacent christians to assume sex before marriage was always promoted or never promoted. This is what I call normalisation. And that general supplications were never important. Also normalisation.
The post Jim Jones resurgence, Moral Majority (well known in England), power evangelism, Kansas City thing (big in England still), inward looking JP II body theology, didn’t promulgate intercession and supplication, they just attempted to manoeuvre an element. Because they were simultaneously dominionists they imposed a sacred value of manoeuvring on secular society as well, hence why economics has been working less well.
(The values of the resurgence are materialist, coming from Spinoza via fake “pragmatists” such as W James, causing incompatibility with wouldbe Trinitarian teachings and community. While dominionism = Bismarck. Result: dead hand god not worth praying to, wet blanket thinking, as described by Nietzsche. They also believe words in any field have no meaning and that incidentals are core essence: fake it to fake it.)
Some part of the church had even had a “council” which should have promoted prayer because God wanted the sexual revolution, environment revolution, media revolution, charismatic revolution to all be successful and there weren’t prayers being raised for these things. Instead there was triumphal image polishing, neglect and wrongfooting. Read what Jeremiah saw in Josiah’s “revival”.
That was the time Savile posed as having religion and a perverted cardinal was close to him. I used to wonder what was going on when I saw him and the girls on TV, when I was a kid. (I have since met a traumatised studio cameraman.) I didn’t like his silly coloured hair, like he was posing.
The UK and US are twins culturally (not superstitiously). If we pray for the quality of results of authority, they will be grateful for it when they get asked questions in the next world. “I was glad Your people were praying for good results for society when I was in my business / governmental calling.” Instead of shallow propaganda mongering.
Now look at billions of frightened women and boys and hundreds of millions of lonely christians of all emotions. My brother says his class tore a strip off the teachers. We knew the facts of life and the biology lesson was fine. Up till then sex outside marriage was private among friends and family and not to be energetically and authoritatively portrayed on a mass scale as a fashion accessory.
Marshall McLuhan warned us to cope (in our personal phenomenology) with mass communication (in the UK, classrooms are part of that) and J B Priestley saw it coming – his play Dangerous Corner and his phrase “admass”.
Every time a crash happens on a corner, as in Croydon sadly, it reminds me poetically of the parallels in culture and spiritual life these days. The universe always was full of corners and full of things that might put us and our authorities to sleep. Nature and the values of the true city of God point us.
This is why we have to put our individual concentration and initiative with our soul competency, Holy Spirit indwelling, our diverse gifts unvetoed, our priesthood as single believers, above what our religious blocs want to manoeuvre us into. The kingdom of God is within us if we go ahead in full belief and not in an irrelevant mini-gospel, and Nature groans in longing (as Dee comments). Contempt prior to examination on spiritual grounds is a blasphemy.
In parallel, Roland Barthes criticised industrial religion exemplified by jesuitism (incidentally Descartes abandoned his originally good starting point for a naive dualism scarcely different from naive monism, because he was jesuit influenced). Then try Barthes’ essay on Plastic.
Actually I found the article interesting.
But I don’t think there’s any way to “retell” the story that would prevent people from leaving.
But assuming that we take everything in the bible as literal truth, there’s a lot there that’s really nasty mixed in with the amazing.
In the end my chisel point sharpie ran out of ink.
Anyway drive yourself crazy trying to reconcile it all.
That’s the faith part I suppose.
Your mind is anything but feeble.
Anyone who gets a handle on adavanced math as you’ve done, has some horsepower up in the cranium.
My wife (not a mk) told me the same thing, almost word for word.
dee,
Reflection upon Mary, I cannot wrap my mind around that God deployed a “shameful act” in the eyes of society of that time to bring out Jesus. Conceiving out-of-wedlock was shameful and could subject
Mary into serious community hate, punishment, and shunning.
Nancy, I hesitate to speak for him. But I take him as saying, one does not have to believe all of the miracles of the Bible to be a believer. I think many Christians who say they believe all of the miracles of the Bible are not telling the truth. Believers should be allowed to question miracles without being deemed a heretic. Please remember I am purely guessing what he meant as I do not know him.
Tom Parker,
There are things in the Bible that I question, myself. I will openly admit that to anyone.
But, some things in this article just struck a bad nerve with me. He speaks of freedom……. if Mary knew, she had no freedom, and so on. If he is right, wouldn’t that same lack of freedom apply to the people involved in all of the prophesies? Predetermination? I wish he had been more thorough, more succinct.
Muff Potter,
Thanks, Muff. But, you do know that my though processes do go off on tangents occasionally.
It’s not just cool-headed questioning of miracles, or “I can believe this but not that.” The Bible is full of things we no longer approve of, such as concubines and slavery. We keep some ideas from Hebrew Scripture, but not others.
Perhaps most of all, we do not and cannot think in the same way as people in the ancient world. Whether or not a Gospel account happened in a scientifically or historically provable way, what does the story mean? If Jesus walked on water, what does that mean? It means more than “he walked on water.”
I do too.
I wonder if he hesitated to spell out portions of his own thinking. He sounds a bit like John Dominic Crossan, but Crossan wrote whole books about this topic.
I thought the same.
Then why not just come out and say that you’re (generic your) a Cartesian rationalist and that Jesus’ supernatural exploits are simply not possible?
Muff Potter,
From the Russ Dean article:
quote
“If Mary knew, or could have known, then the future was not open.”
Mary could not have known. Known what!? (Until any event becomes a reality in time, there is nothing to know.)
unquote
This is a fallacy in basic logic. God helps us to know something ABOUT things because of the way semiotics, inference and memory work, but it will not be clearer to us till it does happen.
Rev Russ Dean might be making an indirect vague plea to those louder mouthed than he, to preach meanings of Scripture (fair enough if he had worded that clearer), or it might be an oblique opening for out and out undermining. I don’t have the motivation to research him further. I’m not impressed with the cloud he seems to put what he calls “hermeneutics” under (the real thing is God given and enlightens secular texts as well as sacred).
I always thought miracles made sense after you believe, and then not all at once. I still keep forgetting what walking on water is supposed to mean. Thus this writer should be calling for belief that Jesus came and ascended and distributed providential Holy Spirit gifts unvetoed. Because according to L Wittgenstein, P Bourdieu and B Ashford, embodied community – the parish that demonstrates His presence by example in faith – is what counts first.
This can’t be done by undermining the truth in Scripture per se. We already saw that the teaching format of St Paul was described by St Peter as difficult to take in, not far fetched. In view of his blunder in basic logic, I fear people like Russ Dean – and around him – may have spent too long within the “the word is the thing” paradigm.
I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters up-front and on the table.
The rest of the stuff?
I pick and choose as I see fit.
For example, I believe that Jesus of Nazareth did indeed walk on water in the most literal sense, and that his other supernatural exploits are all true in the literal sense.
But on the other hand, I take issue with various points of the Apostle Paul’s writings.
Muff Potter,
You may have been going with official misinterpretations, whereas the real (everywhere denied) meanings coincide with your non-negotiables.