NASA’s SpaceX Crew-5 Mission Casts Long Exposure Light Beam- NASA
“Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.” ―
Churches outside of the SBC don’t get it. Many inside don’t as well.
Here is my first example. When I was looking for help and understanding, I fell on the doorstep of the Anglican Church, which was part of AMIA. The pastor told me I had to reconcile with my former SBC pastor. As I began to hyperventilate, shortly before bursting out and crying, he added:
Why didn’t you go to the denominiational leaders over your pastor and have them sort this out?
I realized that he was clueless about how the SBC churches function. I blurted out something like this.
There is no such person. Don’t you know that?
He didn’t, nor was he going to relent about what I had to do. So I ran out of there, bawling, while he sat there looking confused and lacking in empathy.
Here is my second example. A pastor in the LCMS approached me and asked an interesting question. It went something like this.
“I don’t get why the Baptists are still debating Calvinism. Isn’t that something that should have been settled a long time ago?”
I was older and wiser at this point and explained that the doctrinal statement of the SBC is rather loosey-goosey when it comes to these things because “all churches in the SBC are autonomous.” Unlike the LCMS, there is no extensive statement of beliefs.
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod was founded by immigrants from Prussia unhappy with the union with the Reformed church. They have proudly remained independent as other American Lutheran synods have merged.
Sovereign Grace Louisville and the SBC: It gets more confusing.
Given that Al Mohler apologized regarding his relationship with Sovereign Grace, I wondered what happened to Sovereign Grace Church Louisville, the home of CJ Mahaney and friends. Years ago, I predicted the CJ Mahaney would become Baptist, and the boys laughed at me. I continued to laugh in Brother CJ Mahaney: He’s Done Gone and Joined the Southern Baptists!
Mahaney had fled into the ever-loving arms of Al Mohler and had his church become SBC, to the delight of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which had long been filled with fanboys of the great bald one.
Then, the Houston Chronicle named SGC Louisville one of the top ten problems in their articles on SBC abuse. JD Greear, after crying, vowed he would act on this information. Then COVID and Greear rode into the sunset to join forces with the disgraced Bryan Loritts at Greear’s Summit Church. This signaled that Greear wasn’t going to do squat about SGC Louisville, in my opinion.
My letter and the response of the SBC
So, I decided to see if the SBC had done anything regarding the membership of SGC Louisville. I wrote the following to the SBC.
Ms Young
Could you please tell me if Sovereign Grace Church Louisville is a
cooperating member of the SBC. It says they are on their website but I
cannot find it on the SBC directory.Thank you
I assumed I would not receive a response, but I was wrong.
Ms. Parsons,Thank you for your message.The cooperating status of Sovereign Grace Church Louisville is listed in our records as cooperating only with the SBC, however, based on information available to us, the church appears to not be eligible to send messengers to the SBC Annual Meeting under the requirement of SBC Constitution Article III – https://www.sbc.net/about/what-we-do/legal-documentation/ constitution/ . As it relates to our Church Search website, the church is there, it just appears that the church may be listed under another address associated with the church or one of its properties: https://churches.sbc.net/church/sovereign-grace-church-of- louisville/ . Blessings,ALLISON YOUNG
Publication & Project CoordinatorSouthern Baptist Convention Executive Committee
901 Commerce Street, Nashville, TN 37203Colossians 3:23 –“Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord.”
Wut?? The SBC continues to support this church??
Full Stop! What in the world (I wanted to use another word, but I am trying to be classy) does this mean? It seems that they are saying that CJ and the gang/church continue to be members of the SBC. However, they cannot send messengers to the SBC convention, which means they can’t vote. Big fat whoop!
When CJ Mahaney took off for Louisville, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary allegedly allowed members of CJ’s infamous Pastors College to attend the seminary. Some claimed they got a cut rate. They also reportedly allowed those who did not hold college degrees to find other ways to get into the Masters of Divinity program: Sovereign Grace Churches Start Trinity College of Louisville, Which Is Accredited by the Controversial, Young Earth Espousing TRACS. It seems part of that relationship ended in 2014, and recently SGC started its own college.
As of today, Sovereign Grace Lousiville’s website touts its relationship with the SBC.
Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville also partners with the Southern Baptist Convention for the purposes of training and gospel mission.
So what does this mean for women pastors and the SBC?
The SBC seminaries have stated that women cannot be pastors, period. Julie Roys reported Hundreds of Pastors Call For SBC Constitutional Amendment Banning Female Pastors. By banning, they mean any title that smells of a pastor, like a Master of Divinity in pastoral studies.
The SBC President responded in SBC president, Executive Committee chair respond to proposed amendment on female pastors.
In a joint statement, SBC Executive Committee Chairman Jared Wellman and SBC President Bart Barber said a “commitment to affirming Southern Baptist polity and the Baptist Faith and Message remains central” in the ongoing debate over female pastors,
Note that such a move will apparently change the constitution and bylaws.
…we are committed to letting these questions come before messengers” at the SBC’s Annual Meeting in New Orleans, Louisiana, in June 2023. The SBC’s constitution and bylaws can only be changed by a vote of messengers at the Annual Meeting.
They are parsing their response here.
…Wellman and Barber also stated support for the Baptist Faith & Message, the Convention’s statement of faith, adding, “We believe that the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
…“These words represent our own individual doctrinal convictions. More importantly, these words represent the sentiments of the messenger body in their past decisions. As we discharge our own duties, we will do so in ways that implement these past decisions that the messengers have given to us.”
Yet some claim this is unnecessary. The matter has been settled.
…In his letter, Law noted the Baptist Faith & Message statement adopted in 2000 already affirms that “while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”
Prior to that, Law said the SBC — through its “Resolution On Ordination And The Role Of Women In Ministry” — already recognizes the Bible “excludes women from pastoral leadership” and “pastoral functions.”
“This matter has long been settled by Southern Baptists,” he wrote.
And any church that violates the changes in bylaws, etc., could be kicked out of the SBC.
Should the SBC decide ultimately to change the Convention’s constitution, any church found to be in violation of SBC bylaws would no longer be a part of the Convention.
They have a tiger by the tail, so let me spell it out.
- If they kick out churches with female pastors, it will demonstrate that the individual churches in the SBC are not autonomous.
- If that is the case, the SBC, as a denomination, might be liable for sex abuse that occurs in individual churches. Some lawsuits are currently going down this path, and lawyers are waiting in the wings.
- Then, can you imagine the uproar that will ensue if it kicks out Saddleback with its female pastors and continues to keep Sovereign Grace Louisville on its books? I would certainly add to that unrest.
I cannot understand why the SBC did NOTHING to the Houston Chronicle-named churches (as promised by JD Greear) and is now getting ready to throw out churches with female pastors. Imagine how this will look. Having a female pastor is far worse than dealing with incidents of sexual abuse. The Op-Eds? Social media? Protests? Talk Shows?
One other thing to consider. Who gets hurt worse if the SBC boots out Saddleback? Saddleback has a weekly attendance of 25,000. They will do just fine without the SBC and will probably become a nondenominational church or even start a new denomination. They will become the darlings of social media when they get the boot. In the meantime, back at the SBC, I predict things will not go well for them. The inevitable comparison between no action on sexual abuse while throwing out church with female pastors will last for years.
Back to my Lutheran pastor:
For decades, the SBC had the opportunity to make their precise desire regarding women as pastors (along with making Calvinism their go-to doctrine) an explicit part of their bylaws and constitution. They didn’t. Why? Maybe some of TWWs readers can help me out here.
Dee,
Since Ms. Young answered your letter could you write her again and ask her how much the SBC pays Rachael Denhollander for her work as an adviser to the SBC Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force?
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2022/09/16/southern-baptist-abuse-reform-task-force-what-to-know/69498393007/
Please forgive me if I’m, to quote a phrase coined by C.J. Mahaney, “sinfully craving answers.”
Thanks.
Oh good grief.
(Truth and sin are not in the same hemisphere. Duh.)
You ain’t just-a-whistlin’-Dixie they got a tiger by the tail.
How long can they keep the field hands (pew serfs) cowed when they put a higher priority on women in the pulpit then they do by allowing Chester the molester free rein in their enclaves?
The only thing the SBC can do to a church is not allow that church to seat messengers at the annual convention. There is no punishment beyond that. To take such a step requires that the church is “not in friendly cooperation with the Convention” which could mean anything from not having given any money to the Convention in the prior year to not qualifying under the doctrinal standards or provisions of the SBC constitution or bylaws.
Exercising this gate keeping function alone has not been shown to be a basis for liability.
But when there is a shift from gate keeping to operating a congregation or certifying ministers, the facts change and liability could ensue.
The SBC has traditionally not permitted the seating of messengers from churches that have women pastors. If the SBC sticks to that, it will take its lumps and move on. There will be losses, but the battle will be over and folks will move on.
If the SBC dances around the issue in confusion there will be a 10 year low boil war with results that will please no one.
I predict the SBC will choose chaos over clarity and this opt for many years of unhappiness.
“This” in the last sentence should be “thus”.
Oracle at Delphi,
Thx for setting this straight.
Denominations, sects, cults, and mobs all nuance differently.
However, sustainability is the end goal of all of them.
Jesus was all about sustainability – for Eternity alone. Sure enough, people either 1. Did him in, rubbed him out, or 2. Abandoned him completely in his God forsaken situation.
Apparently these church orgs are here for their worldly footprint with little regard for Eternity, thus not following Jesus (to the Cross).
When churches are run by salaried suits, no wonder. The guys got to make a living and support their families by selling their gospel via selling evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship.
God has nothing to do with selling the Gospel. It’s not in the Bible. Communities were to put up a traveling disciple for a day or two (room & board) but then the traveling man of God had to move on. (“Don’t stay longer than a couple of days,” Jesus said.) Do preachers preach this? Never; they don’t follow Jesus’ rules for themselves, but boy oh boy, they lay it on thick about tithing and their transactional “gospel”.)
It’s possible to run a civic organization without the salaries. Happens all the time. The org may contract for particular services (file taxes, catering, legal services) but the org itself runs without salaries. No one is dependent on the org for the survival of their family.
Too bad churches don’t get it.
Remember the vulgarities of “Girls Gone Wild”? Well, follow Barry Bowen @pastorplanes (and mansions) on Twitter. Far more vulgar stuff goes on with clergy.
Selling the Gospel is far more evil than selling sex. Special place in –ll for these guys, yet “everyone is doing it” it seems.
Clergy Gone Wild.
“Churches outside of the SBC don’t get it. Many inside don’t as well.”
The average Southern Baptist has no clue about the New Calvinist takeover of their denomination, with NeoCals now controlling all SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, etc.). Millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists unknowingly funded this rebellion when they sent their hard-earned money to SBC’s Cooperative Program and mission funding campaigns – Lottie Moon Christmas Offering and Annie Armstrong Easter Offering. New Calvinist leaders willingly accept money given in the name of those women missionaries of old, while now diminishing the roles of female believers through the “beauty of complementarity.” Yep, the average Southern Baptist ain’t got a clue. They really don’t care what flavor of theology comes from the pulpit as long as they can continue to have their fun and fellowship and monthly potluck meals – you take those away and you will have a war on your hands!
“For decades, the SBC had the opportunity to make their precise desire regarding women as pastors (along with making Calvinism their go-to doctrine) an explicit part of their bylaws and constitution. They didn’t. Why? Maybe some of TWWs readers can help me out here.”
We’ve talked often on TWW about the stealth and deception of the New Calvinists. They hid their agenda between the lines of a revision of the Baptist Faith & Message in 2000. Those who were astute enough 20+ years ago saw the denomination trending toward Calvinism through subtle changes in the BFM2000 revision. Unfortunately, millions of mainline (non-Calvinist) SBC members did not.
So “Why?” have NeoCal leaders not brought their dastardly plans out into the open. IMO, the answer is simple. The money flow would be affected, disrupting the NeoCal mission … they needed bucks from millions of non-Calvinist members across America to fund their “Quiet Revolution.” If the NeoCals had stated clearly: (1) we are going to make Calvinism the default belief and practice of Southern Baptists (SBC’s message for the last 150 years will no longer be “Whosoever will may come”), and (2) women will be eternally subordinated (women sit down and shut up, you can’t use any God-given spiritual gift to pastor the Body of Christ) … if those plans had been put out in the open for all to see, most of those millions of folks in the pew would have been opposed and stopped funding the rebellion.
The were predestined not to. They could not have chosen to do otherwise.
How about the thoughts of an SBC pastor – our old friend William
https://sbcvoices.com/bro-bubba-at-podunk-crossroads-baptist-gets-a-call-from-the-credentials-committee/
Ava Aaronson,
This is really good.
If you haven’t heard of the book “The Dorean Principle” by a Silicon Valley layman, Conley Owens, you should.
His proposition is that biblical teaching prevents charging for the Gospel. Donations are fine, as that is funding by co-laborers. But charging involves customers, as opposed to co-laborers.
You should look him up on YouTube.
His presentation has really challenged my thinking.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
🙂
Oracle at Delphi,
Interesting theses…. I will try to look it..
Unfortunately, allot of my experiences with “The Church” is consistent with pew peons, or “unchurched” as being “customers”…
WHOSE Truth, AVA?
I’ve heard so many TRVTHs, Alternative TRVTHs, and Alternative Facts (all flat-out contradicting each other, if not contradicting themselves) that I can’t tell Which Way Is Up any more.
More so than Mike Warnke Selling Satanic Panic?
Or is Selling Satanic Panic (or its latest politicized incarnation, Q) a flip-sideline to keep the pew peons from running away?
After all, the Fanatic Persecutor and the Slick Deceiver work very wall as a tag team; the people flock to the Slick Deceiver (taking his Mark) for protection from the Fanatic Persecutor(s) everywhere else.
Say the Sinner’s Prayer (and really really mean it), get your Fire Insurance policy and complementary Rapture Boarding Pass.
Give seed money (all you’ve got) to the ManaGAWD and Get Rich Like Him via GAWD’s favor. Cash up front only.
Have More Perfectly-Parsed, Utterly Correct Theology than Thou, become one of the Predestined Elect.
Tit for Tat.
I see that this book is currently available for free on Amazon as a kindle book. That’s a positive thing. But on the negative side, the author’s bio indicates he is a ‘reformed baptist’. Hmmmm
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The irony of what you write is that I am old enough to see the philosophical belief system of “post modernism” heavily impact popular culture. For the uninitiated, “post-modernism”, as the name implies, is almost the opposite, or at least “after” “modernism”. Practical, Post-moderism, advocates skepticism about all truth… There were major “battles” in the 1990’ in academic fields about whether a department was “modernists of post-modernist”….
We now see debated on national stage about facts and “alternate facts”… the real irony is that conservative Christains/evangelicals were really worked up against “post-modernism”……. Now, right wing “Christians”, and what seems to a majority of evangelicals have fully embraced “post-moderist” thinking when it comes to their political views….. sigh..
🙂 🙂 🙂
AUCPA,
This is great..
Jeffrey Chalmers,
U https://youtu.be/S8N5l0dX-Ws
FreshGrace,
Reformed, Arminian, or any theological stripe can follow the Dorean Principle to rid the customer dynamic from the faith.
Here’s a good interview of the author from a layman.
https://youtu.be/S8N5l0dX-Ws
In a strange, sick way … I believe you are right, Ken. They believe they are following the sovereign will of God … sorta like the SBC founders did during the Civil War. As slave-holding Calvinists (including pastors and deacons), the Founders believed Sovereign God was on their side until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years until Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists began dragging the SBC back to its roots, without asking millions of members if they wanted to go there!
Oracle at Delphi,
Oh, I already downloaded his book and started to read it and it is very good. As far as the RB’s . . . . well, I resigned my membership from my former church and they are still pursuing me retroactively with discipline/censorship so there’s that.
Max,
Lets get even further into the “weeds”. “Stonewell Jackson” (one of the most famous Sourthern, Civil War solder) was very pious, and also a Calvanist.. and a “nut job”… he even called four is cannon groupings (I do not remember if they were called battions, or what) Mathew, MArk, Luke and John, that “administers” the Gospel to those northers… sigh..
He also road on his hourse with one hand “up” which supposedly “balanced body forces” and scuked on lemons… i.e. a very “ecentric” fellow, and many consider him so “pious”… sigh…
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
My bad…
Confederate Brigadier General William Nelson Pendleton, who was an Episcopalian minister. He continued to preach during the war while holding the post of Chief of the Artillery of the Army. He is the one that named the cannons this..
BUt,
There are (were) four cannons next to the statue of Stonewall Jackson at VMI, named, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John…. sigh..
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
from Wiki:
Pendleton was portrayed in the 2003 Civil War film Gods and Generals by John Castle. The scene featured a conversation between Pendleton and Stonewall Jackson regarding his son, Alexander Swift “Sandie” Pendleton, who was present. During the scene, Pendleton informed Jackson of the naming the howitzers Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John; to which, Jackson replied “I’m sure your men will spread the gospel wherever they encounter the enemy.”
Yup, our country, and Christianity much in much better state 170 year ago…. (being saracastic)
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
PS..PS..
Do NOT underestimate the nastiness of Cannons in Civil War.. the blood bath of the Civil War was partially the result of obsolute tactics, and new technology… the Cannon balls from those cannons would easily take off your head, and when the use “canister” in close quarters fighting, one shot would take out dozens of men with just a big pink cloud..
So, my point it assoicating the “Gospel” that I understand, with reducing men to a “pick cloud” is pretty sick…. and “Stonewall Jackson” is have been litteraly “worshiped” for over a century… sigh…
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
Typo..
Obsolete, not obsolute
They, not the; before the word “canister”
My point is, “it”
Finally, “Stonewall Jackson” is/has been
Oracle at Delphi,
Thx.
I grieves me that The Dorean Principle is needed.
Some folks still worship in churches that look like churches; where people choose whether or not to donate, and pick their own amount; where the members see the budget and vote on it at an annual meeting, and understand the line items. My grandfather served as a church treasurer a long time ago. He would recognize this way of doing things, although we would have to explain electronic transactions to him.
From dust to dust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eN1E2VwWD0
“You’re Dutiful” – “You’re Beautiful” adapted by the Marsh Family
An informational query:
Is there any significance if the job title “minister” and “assistant minister” suddenly changes to “pastor” and “assistant pastor”?
This has happened with people I know and they are always very good at not commenting whenever I try to start a conversation.
Apologies if it’s of no relevance.
But then there is the connection to Guidepost that affects retirement, insurance,loans etc. A churches affiliation gets complicated.
four million through NAMB for sex payments to EC. Where did the money come from.
Send Relief they say. Where does their money come ?
Relief
Michael in UK,
I tend to use “pastor” here because it’s both a more general term (pastoral duties) and a more specific term (Dee’s Lutheran turf). The responsibilities are all vaguely the same or ovelapping, but people hear specific things if we say pastor, minister, preacher, priest, or clergy member.
Friend,
Yes, I meant whether a specific church has altered the titles and if this is a trend or a sign of some specific ideological influence.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
The influence of William James has been criticised by Susan Haack repeatedly, and by Louis Menand in The Metaphysical Club (2002). As Dallas Willard has pointed out, W James got publication of Husserl’s phenomenological work blocked for a generation from 1913. Bertrand Russell was appalled by W James. W James, a fake tolerant, promulgated corner cutting just like the Jesuitry of probabilism (if you want to kid yourself you “think” you “should” do it, do it). This is the reason essentialism has become entrenched, backed by the sacred force of the dominionists. Essentialism means taking an incidental and alleging it is the core essence, such as mannerisms and roles, that is why the world’s gender ideology stems directly from the churches’ gender theology. However as Scriptures point out, God has got X ray eyes.
I believe these quotes were taken from a Christian Post article…
…Wellman and Barber also stated support for the Baptist Faith & Message, the Convention’s statement of faith, adding, “We believe that the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
…“These words represent our own individual doctrinal convictions. More importantly, these words represent the sentiments of the messenger body in their past decisions. As we discharge our own duties, we will do so in ways that implement these past decisions that the messengers have given to us.”
Does it strike anyone else as odd that they are bolstering their position via “we believe,” “our own doctrinal convictions,” “sentiments of the messenger body,” and “implement these past decisions that the messengers have given to us”?
Where, exactly, is God? To support their view of women in the church, I realize that they are cherry picking Scripture, ignoring history, and engaging in heresy if they go the ESS route. But it is very striking to me that the statements in that excerpt rely on human decision making without a whiff of God’s leading.
Michael in UK,
“Is there any significance if the job title “minister” and “assistant minister” suddenly changes to “pastor” and “assistant pastor”?”
+++++++++++++++
‘tcha, plenty.
it’s a costume party. it’s just that some costumes mean you get higher pay and better perks.
women relegated to the ‘director’ costumes do all the work of pastoring and admin and more in lesser working conditions,
but without the pastor job title classification and its salary & other benefits & opportunities.
chances are they have to report to a man awarded the ‘pastor’ costume & a glorified title having lesser competence, education, skillset, experience, & work ethic.
such is the ridiculous nature of the christian church leadership industry that rewards men & penalizes women for no reason at all other than one has the donger-of-entitlement and the other does not.
it’s just like when a complementarian woman does the dishes, it’s submission. when the complementarian man does the dishes, it’s leadership. same dishes, same dishsoap, same apron.
men are great, women are great… let’s just cut the nonsense crap.
it’s too embarrassing. and detrimental to all.
That would have taken some doing given W. James died in 1910. The actual event took place in 1905 when James allegedly recommended a publishing house not do an English translation from German of Husserl’s work, Logische Untersuchungen (first edition, the second edition is 1913).
btw many on both sides in the Civil War said God was on their side. As Lincoln noted “Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other” (not quite true since Catholics and Protestants use somewhat different Bibles and there were non-Christians on both sides also, but, rhetorically effective).
elastigirl,
In addition to being as absurd as when they used to keep slaves, it’s also satirically funny.
Back in the 90’s we had a pastor at an SBC church who was all into the men ruling. It got funny as to who could chair committees. Guys did not want to head up the kitchen committee. But this pastor was adamant about something in the education department: we could hire a minister of education, male, ordained. Or we could hire a woman as education director, non ordained.
We went with the ordained young man.
Turned out the pastor’s mother in law had been a young widow and had raised her only child, his wife, by working as the Education Director at a large church. So one day I asked her what the difference was if both did the exact same job the exact same way.
Her short answer? About $15,000 a year.
I smelled a rat then and still do. If you believe women are scripturally forbidden the job, do not hire them. But it is NOT OK to hire them, rename the job, and pay them less.
“We’re on a mission from God,” said Elwood Blues, in “The Blues Brothers”.
Muff Potter,
“it’s also satirically funny.”
++++++++++++
Christopher Guest…. where are you…
i’ve got your next film right here. it will write itself.
With bits of taco meat scattered around and inside the pink cloud.
Canister = a cannon-sized shotgun round, successor to the earlier “grapeshot”.
Imagine a buckshot load several inches across and weighing several pounds.
Then there’s “double canister” like was used on Pickett’s Charge at close range…
Here’s Stonewall Jackson according to Atun-Shei Films of New Orleans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6DiA_7AjcU
A grouping of four to eight cannons is a BATTERY, the basic unit of Artillery, equivalent to a Company in size and command rank (Captain).
Today’s artillery batteries can be four, six, or eight guns depending on the unit and the army. They are in turn grouped administratively into battalions of three or four batteries.
And like the Taliban and ISIS are still doing.
And by the time those ended, we were already past Post-Modernism into Post-Post-Modernism.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Interesting video…. and he tries the address the “pious” christian question…
Erp,
Thank you so much for correcting my misreading! It’s such a relief it’s not just me that’s into this!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Administration and commerce are now up to the post-post-post-post (or post-), each a stupider misreaction to the last.
With much religion wavering among whatever it thinks may appear cosily not too trendy.
Sadly they didn’t believe their dominionism would have real spiritual force (it was supposed to be merely an advertising ploy). The resurgents are sorcerers’ apprentices in disguise.
Modernism tended to a basis in category theory (splitting as in whole integers) while the better kind of postmodernism while it factors in the implications of set theory (lumping as in decimals below 1) doesn’t reject those of category theory as well: according to commentaries on Badiou I’m reading. (Else it leads to jagganauth-like concepts of “The One” and Gramscite hegemony. Thus the resurgents accuse others of doing what they are doing.)
Dan Allender in Bold Love, and Rae Langton in an article in a compilation ed. by B Leiter, shed light on the codependency which is a form of lustful possessiveness: in the case of YRR, they are trying to possess the eternally subordinated (you and me) as proxy for the subordinator. Their personality is projected into the space the object occupies. Really, the YRR should be getting angry with their nasty dads and their former mentors whom they idolised.
I discovered Atum-Shei’s channe during the initial COVID lockdowns, and it’s pretty interesting. From local (New Orleans) history to Civil War history to film projects to continuing shorts to a two-hour dramatic reading of Kynge Jaymes Daemonlogie in reconstructed Kynge Jaymes Englyshe (whose actual spoken form is surprisingly understandable to this 21st Century Californian).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
https://www.youtube.com/c/AtunSheiFilms/videos
** trigger warning **
In Raising Cain by Kindlon & Thompson (1999) (hereinafter K&T) they cite another book, by Bernard Lefkowitz, titled Our Guys, the Glen Ridge r*pe and the secret life of the perfect suburb (1997). According to K&T’s synopsis of Lefkowitz, Lefkowitz found that a group of “jocks” imposed a caste system on girls, the cheerleaders who stay downstairs at parties, and those who get “taken” upstairs. A shocking revelation reportedly is that the parents of the “jocks” excused them for their crime, thereby actually demeaning boyhood and manhood.
I see that a similar system of “pecking orders” and inconsistency / deniability layers (even without sexual aberration) has got subliminally imposed in those churches that are based on a chronic succession of emotionally unstable leaders. I think this happens – WITH variations – in countries without a college culture or in denominations with clergy celibacy.
An aside: I’m familiar with the LCMS’ claims regarding the mergers of other Lutheran synods, like the one I’m in (ELCA).
Something they skip over is that, because Lutheran immigrants to this country lacked a common language, there were a *lot* of small synods that were established by immigrants from Scandinavian countries, central Europe, etc. throughout the 19th-early 20th c. There were also synods like the one I grew up in, that were mostly populated by descendants of 18th c. German-speaking immigrants who had abandoned their mother tongue in favor of English during the early-mid 19th c.
The LCMS was born out of a major church conflict in 19th c. Germany – one that never affected the German and Scandinavian Lutherans who were already in the US. As such, my ancestors and those of many other Lutherans, saw no need to get involved in said church conflict, since they weren’t subject to it.
It’s kind of sad, imo, that the LCMS takes a separatist stance toward other Lutheran synods in the US. It really doesn’t need to do that, and us ELCA folk won’t “corrupt” the LCMS b/c we don’t follow its mandate on “close communion.” The ELCA welcomes all baptized Christians to take part in communion when they visit ELCA churches. I mean, shouldn’t that really be the default? I’ve always thought so, but the closer one gets to the LCMS HQ in St. Louis, the more tension there is between the synods, and the more rigid the LCMS becomes about what many of us see as non-essential matters.
I could take communion in an urban LCMS church when I was in grad school, b/c the congregation wasn’t like the ones in the Midwest and kept an open table – which isn’t really allowed. In most Midwestern LCMS churches, no ELCA person is permitted to take communion.
Honestly, I’ve known some lovely LCMS clergy and fellow congregants, but it’s just not a good place for me personally. Dee’s church isn’t like the Midwestern standard LCMS churches. I’m glad that the top people in St. Louis allow East Coast congregations to bend the rules a bit, but Midwestern churches have to toe the line.
I hope those conflicts will somehow be resolved in the future, though it won’t happen anytime soon.
Also, while the LCMS doesn’t espouse Reformed theology, neither do the other Lutheran synods in the US, afaik. It’s anathema to us.
So the claim to independence vs. the mergers of other synods isn’t the real issue, or, at least, the real issue *isn’t* other Lutherans adopting Calvinist beliefs here in the US.
But the LCMS itself was primarily German-speaking at 1st, just like all of the tiny synods in (for example) the Upper Midwest that were formed by Swedish and Finnish immigrants, and where services were conducted in Scandinavian languages well into the 20th c.
Again, the conflicts that drove many of the Founders of the LCMS to emigrate never touched the Lutherans who were already here, and I think it was wise to stay out of it all.
Just my .02; I’d love to hear what other Lutherans of any synod have to say about this! Am really open to hearing different POVs on these issues and history.
Looking to stream “God Forbid” but found “The Scandalous Rise and Fall of Jerry Falwell Jr.” Doc on the youtube channel NOT THE GOOD GIRL: Scams, Cults, and Cautionary Tales.
Turns out, the free channel covers some of the same stories as TWW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCB5nmtKdYQ
Stay home Sunday! Save 10%!
They will not pray together even.
Two high school football teams playing, but the LCMS school team refused to pray with the opposing Lutheran team.
Hear tell, WELS is the same.
Wasn’t Luther the original “Reformer”? But Lutheran churches are not “Reformed”?
Is “Reformed” just another way of saying or billboarding that “We’ve got this right but you don’t”? Inner circle talk? We’re special? Deeper life? Radical faith? Most committed? Buy my book, attend my conference, ($$$)?
Great question! Everybody cherry picks scripture. The patriarchs had multiple wives and concubines, now marriage is one man, one woman, no exceptions. But the patriarchs couldn’t enjoy shrimp cocktails & pork chops, contemporary Christians can. Holy inerrant truth? Or “make it up to fit our needs right now”? You decide!
And really…if they call it “bacon”…why do you fry it?
Theology is so vexing!
I’m not that person.
However, I was at an event last summer, seated next to a Lutheran pastor, so I asked him about why all of the letters: ELCA, LCA, ALC, WELS, LCMS, etc.
He talked about the Lutheran plants, transplants and transitions over the last two centuries, similar to what you shared.
However, he then explained that over time, every few decades, the upper level admins gather and rearrange, vying for power, basically for $$$ purposes. Kind of like how politicians gerrymander to split up and territorialize the plebs or pew. Who gets what for giving units or units to grift, in the pews.
“Principles are what people have instead of God.” – Frederick Buechner
Buechner then explained that a follower of Jesus who is a pacifist in principle, will pick up a baseball bat to rescue a child being assaulted, if need be.
Ava Aaronson,
Oh, WELS is kind of…not sane about what they refer to as “prayer fellowship,” in which they condemn the Boy Scouts for their use of nondenominational prayers. B/c the Boy Scouts pray “false” prayers (i,e., not referring to Jesus at any point), it is categorically wrong for WELS members to allow their kids to belong to the Boy Scouts. Interestingly, they never, ever seem to talk about the Girl Scouts.
The LCMS and WELS used to be “in prayer fellowship,” but WELS broke it off decades ago, partly due to the LCMS allowing members’ kids to be Boy Scouts; also b/c some LCMS congregations were allowing Boy Scout troops to meet on their premises. I had never even heard the term “prayer fellowship” before I found out about this, and am not even sure what it means. But the conflict between these two synods was *very* heated.
WELS does not permit women to speak in church. They can’t be lay lectors (can’t read the OT or NT lessons aloud from the lectern during services). They’re forbidden from speaking during church services, period.
Although both the LCMS and WELS are inerrantist and literalist, WELS takes that much further than most in the LCMS. And the LCMS’s inerrantism is actually pretty new – it dates from the early 1970s.
It’s all uncharted waters to me. I’m from one of the Mid-Atlantic states that saw an influx of both German Lutherans and German-speaking Anabaptists (Menmonites, Amish, and Church of the Brethren) from the mid-19th c. forward. Am descended from German Lutherans who emigrated here in the mid-18th c. (My ancestors came here in the 18th c.) Many things that are bedrock for the LCMS (like adherence to the 16th c. church documents collected in the Book of Concord) aren’t emphasized by the ELCA and weren’t emphasized by the predecessors of the ELCA. That’s b/c many things in those documents are about historic differences and conflicts in the 16th c., and many are just not relevant, other than as historic texts. The LCMS holds that they’re all relevant today, which means things like viewing the pope as the antichrist. (WELS takes the same position, only more so, if that makes sense.)
Here on the East Coast, most LCMS congregations are very…liberal. The closer one gets to the mothership in St. Louis, the more obvious the differences become.
The LCMS does not ordain women and believes that women are unfit to be clergy. The ELCA ordains women and has many women in pastoral ministry. And obviously, women are permitted to speak in ELCA services, as lectors, and in every other capacity one could think of. Women serve as elected officers in ELCA church councils (in individual congregations) all over the US.
I appreciate the best aspects of the LCMS, and I’ve met some lovely people who are members, clergy, etc. But I could never become a member, b/c i disagree with certain things that they require members to believe and practice.
Ava Aaronson,
Oh, there are most definitely political aspects to all of this, but that’s not what I’m referring to. And it’s not something I care to be involved in, either.
Lutheran immigrants to this country counted Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Finnish, Latvian, Estonian, Lithuanian, German, Russian, Ukrainian , Croatian and more as mother tongues. Where the worldwide Anglican bodies have a common language, the European Lutheran immigrants to this country had none. The congregation I grew up in, in Central PA, was still holding services in German until close to the mid-19th c. – in other words, until the last German-speaking 1st and 2nd generation members had died out. After that, services were in English only.
I think that the history of many churches and beliefs here in the US are complicated due to their practitioners having come from so many different places, and having so many different languages as their native tongues. Among Catholics, parishes tended to form around ethnicity/nationality, so until fairly recently there were all-Irish, all-Italian (etc.) parishes. Today, there are many Spanish-speaking parishes that tend to be divided by nationality: Mexican, Salvadoran, Guatemalan, etc., b/c their congregants are new to this country. As time goes on, those divisions will fade, as will the use of Spanish.
Again, just my .02. I welcome others’ thoughts, especially those of fellow Lutherans, in clarifying these issues.
Ava Aaronson,
No, Lutheran churches are *not* capital-R Reformed. Reformed theology is Calvinist. Lutherans are NOT Calvinists, although the Calvinists claim him as one of their own.
Lutheran churches are a direct result of the efforts of Luther and others to reform (lowercase r) the Roman Catholic Church. Our liturgy today is almost identical to the post-Vatican II “new Mass” (in English) used in Catholic churches. There are a couple of differences, but not many. We are markedly similar to both Catholics and various parts of the worldwide Anglican Commuoin, and all of said denominations are very different to the vast majority of Protestant churches both here and abroad.
The focus of the service is holy communion, not preaching. That alone sets us and every Anglican Communion church apart from most other Protestants.
In England, some Chirch of England congregations hold to a modified Reformed (Calvinist) theology. But that’s a whole different ballpark to Lutherans, both here and in Europe, where many countries have Lutheran churches as official state churches.
What drove the founders of the LCMS to emigrate had everything to do with a po,itical move to merge Lutheran churches with various Reformed (Calvinist) denominations in then-newly united Germany, in order to form a single state church.
It’s complicated!
About reformers: people like William Tyndale, Jan Hus, and Luther and his associates spearheaded what we now call the Reformation. But other kinds of theologies and churches are part of the overall Reformation – thus, Calvinists, Mennonites and many, many other sects and denominations. Most died off centuries ago.
Again, all I can say is that it’s *really* complicated, and reccomend that you check out some books on the history of the Reformstion if you want to pursue this further. It’s not something that can be easily boiled down for the sake of blog comments, b/c it’s just way too vast.
I hope that’s helpful! And I’d also recommend that you look for books by historians of the Reformation era, rather than books written from X, Y or Z denomination’s slant. That can be super-tricky!
As to not praying together: in other parts of the country, it absolutely wouldn’t be an issue.
This kind of thing just perpetuates needless conflict that has no reason to exist in the 21st c. It’s a holdover from the German church controversies of the early-mid 19th c., and it really shouldn’t have been transplanted to these shores.
Its perpetuation is just…well, it certainly shows how flawed we humans can be, and how unkind (in my opinion, at least). It’s foolish, and it hurts so many people, like the kids at the game you mentioned.
Hey, apologies to all for the lengthy comments! I usually try to keep things simple, but these topics are complex.
And I’m no expert, either, just an interested bystander who’s read a lot of history for fun, and happens to be ELCA Lutheran (actually, LCA, but that synod was part of the ELCA merger, back in the 70s).
The LCMS is not Reformed. For example, they believe that believers can leave the faith unlike “preservation of the saints.”
The word “reformer” can mean many things.
It is most confusing. I learned much by joining the LCMS crowd.
numo,
I have been told by Lutheran theologians that there are some close similarities with Greek Orthodox.
Yikes!
This one would!
(I hope I didn’t alarm any Wartburger by showing them this side of ole Max)
Ava Aaronson,
There are divisions between the various Lutherans. For example, the LCMS has always been a separate group. In the 1970s, there was a great split between ELCA and groups like the AAlC due to profound theological differences. Those groups like the AALC now are close to the LCMS and even share a seminary campus with them.
numo,
I heard a funny joke at Church this weekend. A man went to heaven and was shown around by an angel. They came to a closed door. The angel signaled the man to be quiet and said, “Inside is the LCMS crowd. They think they are the only ones here.”
I laughed out loud and whispered to my husband-“many Baptists and other denominations, along with nondenominational churches, think the same thing!”
There is an advantage to having wandered extensively on the evangelical wilderness.
Agreed. The wilderness equips you for the journey ahead. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel, but it’s hell in the hallway!
After his conversion, Paul spent three years in the Arabian desert.
What’s your source on that, Max?
(The specific location, not the duration.)
In the version going around some 40 years ago, it wasn’t “the LCMS crowd”; it was the IFBs, the “Baptarians”, or one of the local splinter “Fellowships”.
i.e. “What Fellowship has Light with Darkness?” (2 Cor 6:14)
Or Screwtape telling Wormwood how Our Father Balow RIGHTEOUSLY removed himself and his Angels from the Presence of The Enemy, no matter how The Enemy spins it.
The Anglicans and the Lutherans both branched off from the Catholics; all remain Western-Rite Liturgical Churches. (And thus Antichrist Mystery Babylon to all the Reverend Apostle Joe Soaps and their One True Churches.)
And today’s mix of theology with politics has abandoned Principles altogether (except as weapons) and put their trust entirely in Princes.
“GIVE US A KING! JUST LIKE ALL THE GOYIM!” (1 Samuel 8:6)
From my lived experience of two congregational splits, they lead with Righteousness, but seek to keep the Property. One split was absolutely led by members. I don’t know where the other originated, but it needed a groundswell of members to happen.
Related but not… during a garden-variety non-schismatic disagreement in my congregation, a pastor said this to me: “Assume we can’t make them go away. What next?”
Reconciliation is the most powerful tool we ignore.
Not true. Benighted local associations and even state conventions have excluded such churches from their local and state meetings, but the SBC has NEVER done so:
“the SBC has never withdrawn fellowship from a church because it had a female pastor”
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/tenn-assoc-disfellowships-church-with-female-pastor/
And straight from the Southern Baptist Convention’s website, neither the BF&M2000 statement nor the 1984 Resolution on this are binding on local churches:
https://www.sbc.net/about/what-we-do/faq/
FAQ – “Can women be pastors or deacons in the SBC?”
“The BF&M statement says, ‘While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture’…The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are rightly addressed to men. However, the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy.”
I suspect that was pre-New Calvinism. Now that the NeoCals have taken over SBC, I suspect regional associations will not be as kind to local congregations which choose to allow a woman to exercise her spiritual gifting to preach and pastor the flock.
One highest level SBC leader’s church, I saw its Instagram had a post showing a woman preaching at Sunday morning service. She was a minister at another SBC church. [the Instagram post has since ‘disappeared’, but I have it archived]
I also found a video of the church of another high-level SBC person (2020-2022 chair of the board of trustees of an SBC entity). This person’s SBC church has a woman minister who was preaching.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Galatians 1:17-18
Todd Wilhelm,
Every messenger to the SBC’s annual gathering should be privy to this information. Sadly, there is a culture of need-to-know-ism that is ingrained within the Convention and will likely never be completely excised. This should be widened beyond just Ms Denhollander’s specific compensation and include all convention staff, from executive to entry-level.
Not for me it’s not.
I’m happy as a clam in my small congregation Lutheran (ELCA) church.
As an ex Calvary Chapel bot, I’ll never again set foot in a fundagelical church.
dee,
Really?!! I don’t see that *at all.* I wonder what this person was referring to.
dee,
There are not “divisions,” at least, not in the way you’re saying, for the simple reason that there was never a single, sole cohesive Lutheran church to begin with.
So yeah, we’re all from the Lutheran tradition, but none of the current synods in the US or elsewhere = the *only* “real” Lutheran church. Although I am well aware that bothe LCMS and WELS represent themselves as such.
Like, the LCMS wasn’t even inerrantist until the early 70s, Preuss and what was dubbed the “Seminex” (for seminary in exile, after the many students and faculty at Concordia who got kicked out for being neither inerrantist nor literalist).
The current LCMS is the result of *internal* divisions and jockeying for power at that time. Preus was on record as believing in a literal 6-day (24 hour days) creation and all the rest. It was a MESS. (‘Not yelling, just being emphatic.) Anyone who thought differently was no longer welcome.
Might I suggest looking further than solely LCMS sources on a lot of things? I mean, you guys are so big on “law/gospel” sermons and writing, while I have yet to hear anyone – LCA or ELCA – even make a thing of that.
The LCMS has it’s own spin on many things. Funding out about Seminex and its alums might be very interesting to you.
dee,
Wait…. there was NOT a “split.” For one thing, the ELCA is NOT a schismatic group. Please see the following + the ELCA’s own website for more accurate details.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America
I guess I shouldn’t be shocked that you’ve been told these things, but I genuinely am. All I can say is that it pays to do one’s own research.
Also that I’ve been called “heterodox” by someone who used to comment on and write for iMonk (the latter occasionally only). He converted to the LCMS from a fundy church, and wow… is he ever a fundy /Lutheran. I realized that neither the LCMS nor WELS members who are fundies like being called that. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s a generally accurate term for their beliefs.
Dee, if you’d like to talk off-list, I’m available. And I’d be happy to discuss all of this and more.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thank you for saying “branches off,” HUG, though really, there are some within the Anglican Communion who are more Catho,if than most RCC members – Anglo-Catholics. At any rate, the C of E is supposed to be a “via media” between the RCC and Lutherans + the rest of the Protestant Reformation. In many ways, the C of E is far closer to the RCC than most Lutherans are, while in other respects, it’s the reverse.
As for traditionalists, there’s a substantial LCMS faction on your coast that believes in Transsubustatiation. In the same way it is believed in and explained in the RCC. Bridget doesn’t comment here much anymore, but she’s actually been to a service at an LCMS church in SoCal where this is the case. There was also a woman from Seattle who used to comment on iMonk at one time who was ELCA but headed for either the RCC or EO of some sort. She floored me with her description of how the leftover communion bread ought to be treated – and please understand that I personally believe (as do most Lutherans) in the Real Presence of Christ in the sacrament. (Sacramental union – not consubustantiation, as everyone else insists. Which kinda drives me around the bend, b/c they are neither reading Lutheran sources nor listening to what we tell them… oh well. Twas ever thus, I guess.)
dee,
Hey there! Please check your email. Am wondering if we could have an off-list discussion on a couple of point?
B/c my head is spinning and I need some help with trying to figure out what you’ve been told, most especially in regard to both ELCA history and Lutheranism being similar to the EO churches (Greek especially), as neither this nor a number of other things you’ve said are making sense to me and I literally need some help here!
Not being argumentative – I’m just, well…floored.
It’s really a shame that they couldn’t just relax and realize that people have different views on the so-called ‘inerrancy’ debate, and so long as the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed were not being violated, so what?
I believe it too, a real and genuine supernatural occurrence.
dee,
There are a whole lot of fine-toothed comb- type things going on when it comes to the Reformation and various leaders, of various schools of thought, during the Reformation era. I don’t think it’s possible to begin to understand how diverse their ideas were – or just how much various leaders clashed – without spending time reading about the reformers and the Reformatiin era *from a non-denominational perspective.*
I can’t emphasize that final phrase enough!
But for brevity’s sake, capital- R Reformed = Calvinism and Calvinists and their churches. Capital-R name of the historical era is the Reformation.
The thing is, there was no single Reformation; there were many. There’s Hus, and then Luther; in England, there are the late medieval Lollards, then John Wycliff and Tyndale; there’s Luther and his Circle – and then there’s Ulrifh Zwingli, Calvin and his followers, Menno Simons and on and on and on.
The Dutch Reformed Church and all its derivatives are, for example, Calvinists. So were the Huegenots in France, most famously massacred at the direct order if the theb- queen, Catherine de’ Medici, at the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes. Look up St. Bartholomew’s Day massacres for more. The descendants of the Huguenots who survived are mainly in Switzerland and the US, although some went to Latin America, for reasons that are unclear to me.
The wars and horrible bloodshed – often perpetrated by Protestants against other Protestannts – are just deeply shocking and painful to read about, likewise what happened in what’s now the UK, on every single side, from Henry VIII forward.
To a very great extent, the conflicts begun by the English Reformation are *still* playing out in this country, especially in the South.
Please don’t shoot! I’m just a messenger, truly.
Apologies for typos – Ulrich Zwingli.
Huguenots
Direct order of the then-queen [of France]
Muff Potter,
Blame J.O. Preus, who became the head of the LCMS and pushed Concordia U. (their seminary) and the LCMS as a whole into both inerrantist and literalist interpretations of the Bible.
That’s why so many students and faculty at Concordia left to start the Seminex. They literally *’had* to leave, or else recant (chuckle, per the phrase Luther repeatedly used when called upon, by the Diet of Worms, to give up his beliefs – will make sense to anyone who’s ever read Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther).
Muff Potter,
Yep, well… but some synods, here and abroad, wouldn’t offer either of us Communion if they knew we were ELCA.
It makes me sad, and discouraged, really, but it’s a human-made mess, not anything related to God, as far as I’m concerned.
numo,
Ironic isn’t it, that Preus became the very thing that Luther fought against.
dee,
Yep, well, we all (by all I mean human beings) just like to think Our Group is The Best Group, or else The Only Group.
God doesn’t give a fig for all of our divisiveness and claims to being the Only True Believers, y’know?
At least, that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. 🙂
Muff Potter,
Yes. You might want to do some Googling on the Seminex. People who were part of the mass exit from Concordia are in their 70s now.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I love this…
“But I HAVE to stay online all night —
SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!”
— XKCD (stick-figure online comic)
Wiki on Seminex, Preus, etc. –
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminex
Will you please say more about this, if you know more? In my region, the (healthier) older churches just keep going, or they close. If a big new town center is built on former farmland, it stands to reason that a couple of new churches might be founded.
The typical growth pattern here, though, is to add congregations to an established building. An older Methodist church might have a Spanish-language Methodist congregation as well as, say, weekly services offered by and for Korean Presbyterians.
We do have our share of megas, but they don’t collaborate to divide the spoils… I don’t think they are capable of sharing even in that way.
I don’t.
However, my original comment with the actual story concerned: ELCA, LCA, ALC, WELS, LCMS, etc. over 200 years (19th & 20th Centuries), per the view of this older Lutheran pastor who has seen transitions in his lifetime and studied the history of before. The splitting up the pie (gerrymandering) had nothing to do with local churches. He’s talking about the synod leaders at the tippy top elbowing each other for people, power, and place (territory).
(The megas in our area are dynasties unto themselves with tentacles spread over territories, connected to satellites. Not Lutheran. So these were not in our conversation. Just the Lutheran alphabet synods.)
I’m still around. I read more than comment these days. But,yes, to what you said above. It was Easter and the church didn’t even offer communion. And they had a paper in the pews about what they believed and that you had to be approved before you could take communion. As a believer, it made me sad.
Ava Aaronson,
Thanks, that clarifies it.
Bridget,
My mind is still boggled by this. And I’ve never heard anything else like it, not since you 1st mentioned it.
Bridget,
This is why I think Jesus didn’t intend the “communion” ceremony to last beyond 130 AD when Jews and Christians, in religion, drifted apart. We would avoid material “intercommunion” dangers, so that we can focus on spiritual meanings and not play the games of power mongers and countermongers. We would avoid clericalism and even problems around church marriages, let alone “confessions”.
Real Presence worked however while there was a mass of belief and prayer (God makes things like that “work” when they “shouldn’t”, when there is general belief and prayer). Transubstantiation (something different) was adopted by Aquinists for political reasons.
“Remember Me” means look at the spiritual economy of Holy Spirit (Jesus’ twin) in our fellow orphans trading with us. Some people are said to have “died” i.e become dead hands or dead on their feet.
The reply to Dee from the SBC bureaucrat:
“The cooperating status of Sovereign Grace Church Louisville is listed in our records as cooperating only with the SBC, however, based on information available to us, the church appears to not be eligible to send messengers to the SBC Annual Meeting under the requirement of SBC Constitution Article III”
“is listed in our records as cooperating only with the SBC”
Translation: SGC Louisville has in the past sent $$$ directly to the SBC Executive Committee, as SGC Louisville is not affiliated with a Baptist local association or state convention.
“however, based on information available to us, the church appears to not be eligible to send messengers to the SBC Annual Meeting under the requirement of SBC Constitution Article III”
Translation: SGC Louisville has not sent $$$ this year. (SBC Const. Art III.1.3 states that an SBC Annual Meeting messenger’s church must have “made undesignated, financial contribution(s) through the Cooperative Program, and/or through the Convention’s Executive Committee for Convention causes, and/or to any Convention entity during the fiscal year preceding” https://www.sbc.net/about/what-we-do/legal-documentation/constitution/ ) [SGC Louisville is listed in the 2020 and 2021 SBC Annuals as having sent $1200 directly to the SBC Executive Committee, but it is missing from the list of contributors in the 2022 SBC Annual (has not sent $$$)].
Dragons sitting on their hoards like Smaug under Lonely Mountain.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“They say we’re just kids – with nowhere to go”, Michael and Marisa, Beautiful Comeback
Headless Unicorn Guy,
God deliberately makes genuine prophetic occurrences difficult to understand because they demand a continually changing effort in inference and discernment, so that superstitious and simplistic groupies and devious promoters always show themselves up.
I got to hear about an invisible private prelature / pretend order (without postulancy) described – or not described – as “diocesan” (involuntary cuckoo-in-nest arrangement), whose moneys were “parallel inter-metropolitan”. They were emphatically pro-Council in propaganda. Their style had suddenly gone from loud mouthed to tight lipped.
Core characteristics: bold but “authentically inconsistent” ideology plus ambiguous administrative arrangements.
I have no idea what you (or they) were trying to say with those words.
They have the buzzword vibe of Weirs Al Yankovic’s “Mission Statement”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4&t=123s
Headless Unicorn Guy,
This was intended to follow from your comment on visionaries with remote mountainside retreats but I got the wrong thread. Startling yet fashionably wavering ideology, plus ambiguous organisation. Genuine prophetic phenomena on the other hand (IF any have occurred) will need far more careful interpretation as to whom they are addressed to and how their meaning changes. Bad religion is so full of weird Als.
Except Weird AL’s stuff is funny.
Bad Religion is Dead Serious; only the constant, sleepless, unsmiling Dedication to The Cause.