Phantom Galaxy Webb/NASA
Luke 6:32-33 NIV “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.”
I remember the outcry when it was discovered that Bill Clinton participated in oral sex with Monica Lewinsky. Here is an excerpt from the Starr Report. I recall a number of people thought such an act constituted sexual behavior. Now why in the world would I bring this up? Dave Ramsey, that’s why.
Ramsey defines “Judeo-Christian behavior” for his company, and all must agree to his standards or be fired unless they are his buddy.
According to the Tennessean, Ramsey Solutions settles discrimination lawsuit from former employee who came out as lesbian.
Ramsey’s faith-based values influence company policies. The employee handbook says the company can discipline employees whose behavior is “not consistent with traditional Judeo-Christian values or teaching.”
After Stamps, O’Connor and Amos sued the company, Ramsey has joked and made light of lawsuits against him on his show. “Some idiot will find a way to sue you,” he said in one episode in August.
Ramsey said in an October episode that his criteria for hiring a lawyer to fight a lawsuit against him is, “All I want to know is ‘Can you whip their butt? Are you mean and nasty? Will you absolutely, intellectually dominate the other side?’”
Three employees were suing Ramsey.
After Stamps, O’Connor and Amos sued the company, Ramsey has joked and made light of lawsuits against him on his show. “Some idiot will find a way to sue you,” he said in one episode in August.
Ramsey said in an October episode that his criteria for hiring a lawyer to fight a lawsuit against him is, “All I want to know is ‘Can you whip their butt? Are you mean and nasty? Will you absolutely, intellectually dominate the other side?’”
The three lawsuits:
- Dave Ramsey’s company settled a lawsuit that alleged the Franklin corporation pressured an employee to resign after the employee came out as a lesbian.( $76,900 settlement).
- Caitlin O’Connor said the company fired her when managers learned she was pregnant and wasn’t married.
- Brad Amos alleges the company fired him over disagreements about company stances on COVID-19 guidelines.
These lawsuits brought out an aggressive and mean Dave Ramsey.
Ramsey said in an October episode that his criteria for hiring a lawyer to fight a lawsuit against him is, “All I want to know is ‘Can you whip their butt? Are you mean and nasty? Will you absolutely, intellectually dominate the other side?’”
Ramsey’s behavior appears not to fall under his righteous standards.
TWW believes when a group stresses a “no gossip rule,” it usually means that there is something that the group wishes to keep hidden. And that appears to be the case in Ransey’s company.
In other words, Ramsey can say mean and nasty things, which does not count as unrighteous living and behavior. Does Ramsey encourage behavior as defined by the Beatitudes? You know, “turn the other cheek.” Matthew 5:43-47 NIV.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
See what he said above to his lawyers. Are you mean and nasty? Is this the man responsible for setting the standards of behavior for his company? It appears so. Those ethics appear to be a tightly defined set of rules in which he seemed to redefine oral sex as “maybe not sex” to keep his best employee on the job.
From what I can gather, the “no gossip” rule applies to any employee who questions any actions on the part of Ramsey. This leads us to Chris Hogan.
Chris Hogan and accusations of multiple affairs and oral sex
Chris Hogan was a star when it came to Ramsey’s Solutions. He was a regular on the radio show and had written several books that sold well. Ramsey viewed him as his protege. Religion News reported the story in 2021: Chris Hogan, a retirement expert and Dave Ramsey protégé departs Ramsey Solutions.
Hogan, author of “Everyday Millionaires,” hosted his own popular radio show on Ramsey’s platform as well as appearing as a frequent guest host on Dave Ramsey’s program. A familiar presence at Ramsey Solutions events, Hogan was featured in a “Reset” event that Ramsey Solutions livestreamed from Life.Church, one of the largest congregations in the United States.
Chris Hogan had several affairs, and Ramsey was apparently aware of it.
Hogan, however, had admitted to having several affairs, including one with a fellow Ramsey employee, during his divorce proceedings without apparent discipline from company leadership.
It appears Ramsey wanted to save this guy because he was a “star.” Ramsey then attacked Hogan’s wife when she refused to go along with his restoration plan.
Instead, after company officials became aware of Hogan’s infidelity in 2018, just before the launch of “Everyday Millionaires,” the company put together a “restoration plan” that would allow Hogan’s book tour to go forward. Parts of that plan included mandatory counseling for Hogan and his then-spouse, Melissa, and a request that the counselor and the couple’s pastor send regular reports to Ramsey and other company leaders.
After Melissa Hogan objected to that plan and the couple separated, Ramsey told employees that the couple was going through a “really nasty divorce” and accused Melissa Hogan of making angry and untrue allegations about her then-husband.
Dave Ramsey called Melissa Hogan a “world-class bitch” (sorry about the word, but it is an accurate recounting and necessary to the story.)
According to Christian Leaders in At Dave Ramsey’s Company, Some Sex Outside Marriage Was OK, Court Documents Show:
Ramsey said in his deposition that the company made a mistake in how it handled Chris Hogan’s misconduct. The company knew he had had several affairs, one including oral sex, but kept him on staff.
The Christian finance guru placed most of the blame on Melissa Hogan, who had warned company leaders repeatedly about her then-husband’s conduct. He described her as a “world-class bitch” and not a credible witness. Ramsey also referred to a member of her family as “a hole” after he called the company to complain about Hogan’s conduct.
Ramsey wrote that being a “tattle tale” is worse than having an affair.
Watch out, Mrs. Ramsey…
“I actually think what (sic) his lying and trying to tattle tale is actually worse than actually having an affair,” Ramsey wrote other leaders about Hogan’s relative. “People are stupid.”
Melissa Hogan responded to these statements.
Here is a link to her Statement Re: O’Connor v. Ramsey Solutions discovery:
Recently the judge in the federal case O’Connor v. Ramsey Solutions unsealed filings that were previously under a restrictive protective order. Pursuant to that, over 1,000 pages of discovery — depositions and attachments — became public on PACER.
I was disappointed to continue to see what I believe is a pattern of deception and obfuscation that I also personally experienced in my interactions with Ramsey Solutions. There was also new information, including the statement in Dave Ramsey’s deposition that he considers me to be a “world-class bitch.”
I won’t dignify Dave’s name-calling with anything other than my statement below, which has also been provided to any reporters who have requested comment and can be quoted only if the full statement or a link hereto is also included:
I have consistently spoken the truth—to Ramsey Solutions, in my divorce proceedings in 2019, and since that time. Everything I’ve said has been established to be true. The fact that Dave Ramsey himself and Ramsey Solutions as a company, in spite of evidence and witnesses, covered their eyes and ears and apparently chose to believe someone with a long established history of lying to them evidences a profound lack of wisdom and discernment—a disturbing fact considering they purport to lead over 1,000 people in my local Nashville community and even seek to export those practices to other companies.
There seems to be a pattern of Dave Ramsey believing abusive men with power who benefit him, whether it’s Mark Driscoll, Bill Hybels, or my ex-husband, and depicting women who allege misconduct as crazy and un-Christian. In my opinion, this is consistent with Dave’s own behavior so that does not surprise me. But what grieves me most is that he does it in the name of Jesus Christ.
– Melissa J. Hogan, J.D.
I highly recommend you visit Melissa Hogan’s page and read several articles she has written.
Oral sex outside of marriage was not a fireable offense.
The Christian Post wrote At Dave Ramsey’s company, oral sex outside marriage wasn’t a fireable offense, legal docs show.
At Ramsey Solutions, where employees are expected to adhere to a “righteous living values” policy based on Judeo-Christian principles or face discipline, Evangelical CEO Dave Ramsey and his board did not treat one employee’s oral sex outside marriage as a fireable offense because it didn’t qualify as “intercourse,” court documents show.
Read carefully the nonsense spewed by Dave Ramsey, arbiter of moral living ethics. Note how he continues to go after Chris Hogan’s long-suffering spouse, Melissa.
When asked why Hogan was not terminated at the time he confessed to having oral sex outside his marriage, Ramsey said the company defines sex as “intercourse” and the issue had never come up before.
Ramsey said Hogan’s case was also very difficult to review for the company’s leaders because they did not have much experience dealing with a case where an employee had confessed to just oral sex. Matters were complicated, Ramsey added, because “[Hogan], his wife, and his church elders actively deceived everyone in the company” and he wasn’t sure what to believe when Hogan’s now ex-wife, Melissa Hogan, had accused him of adultery in a highly explosive manner.
Besides, the affair was Melissa Hogan’s fault!
He blamed the wife for Chris Hogan needing to receive comfort from another woman. Besides, the guys didn’t complete the oral sex act.
“Her shouting and accusing him of this, trying to get him to own up to it. And he said he had taken comfort in this lady that was his [redacted] because they were both married to crazy people, according to him. And an emotional affair had developed. And that an oral sex act had begun but was not completed, according to him,” Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he wanted to give grace to Hogan.
Ramsey noted that Hogan was also accused of previously being unfaithful to his wife and he owned up to it but they felt like they needed to apply grace to those allegations.
Ramsey didn’t want all the icky details but finally had to accept that Hogan was a problem.
And the oral sex was accused by his wife in a high-stress situation. He admitted it, but said it was not what it sounded like. And frankly, I didn’t want all the details. So the conclusion was that they were going to try to work on it to save their marriage. So we didn’t push it,” the Evangelical CEO added.
A trove of email evidence showed how, over time, Ramsey’s faith in Hogan unraveled as the company realized he was not truthful about the extent of his affairs.
Ramsey said he realized that “we were being played” and feared a PR disaster (which appears more critical to Ramsey than righteous behavior.)
The Roys Report wrote At Dave Ramsey’s Company, Some Sex Outside Marriage Was OK, Court Documents Show.
“I am afraid we are being played after we were warned that he is a world class liar and manipulator,” Ramsey wrote other leaders at his company in an email dated Feb. 25, 2019. The email was part of a trove of documents recently filed in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Tennessee for the lawsuit filed by Caitlin O’Connor, the former Ramsey employee who claims the company fired her for being pregnant and not married.
“We owe God to steward a huge situation with wisdom and thoroughness,” he went on to write. “If it breaks that he has done some huge things and it looks like we did not dig for truth, and checked boxes, we will not only have lost (name redacted), but will also have a legitimate PR problem of scale, because we covered up a horrible act to line our own pocketbooks.”
Ramey wanted the court documents sealed (I wonder why.)They weren’t, and Ramsey got his PR disaster.
Lawyers for Ramsey Solutions and O’Connor have fought in court for months over the documents, with Ramsey lawyers arguing that they all should be sealed. O’Connor’s lawyer argued that she needed to refer to the depositions and other documents in responding to Ramsey’s motion for summary judgment in the case.
In mid-August, a federal judge ruled that redacted copies of the documents could be filed without seal.
As a humorous aside, Ramsey’s Board appeared unable to give Scriptural backup for firing an employee for premarital sex.
Our operating board chose sexual intercourse outside of marriage as the line at which a person must leave and the assumption is termination at that point,” longtime Ramsey board member and Human Resources Committee Chair Jack Galloway said at an August 2021 deposition. “Things short of that are more case by case and more at least open for discussion.”
Ramsey Solutions leaders admitted in a deposition that the company’s “righteous living” rules did not bar premarital sex in writing. While the rules are sometimes described as drawn from biblical standards, several company leaders were not able to cite any Bible verses to support their views on marriage and sex.
Premarital sex gets one fired but calling a woman “a bitch” appears to fit under the category of “righteous behavior” if done by the uber-righteous Dave Ramsey.
I noticed something. Ramsey called Hogan’s wife a “bitch” among other things. From what I can see, there is no apology for this. There is no “Dave, take a leave of absence and get your mind right.” There seem to be no consequences for Ramsey pulling out a gun during a staff meeting.
Ramsey sees the speck in the eyes of his employees and ignores the plank in his own eye and the eye of his BFFs like Chris Hogan. Dave talks the talk of grace but appears to live the life of a legalist as well as a hypocrite.
- His buddy gets a “grace” pass.
- He conveniently plays a Clinton and wonders if oral sex is really sex.
- He calls a woman the worst name possible.
- By calling this woman that name and insulting her in other ways, he appears to be abusive towards women.
- He is definitely not righteous and should be canned by his board, but he makes too much money. How much does he pay them?
- I’m glad my husband and I did not listen to his advice and took on some debt we knew we could handle.
- I would be careful when listening to his advice. If he was willing to play games to protect his buddy, he might not be telling the truth in his financial advice.
I would much rather work with a young woman who is pregnant due to premarital sex than work with a man who would call me horrible names and hold himself up as a role model. I would suggest that anyone hired by Ramsey speak to a lawyer before accepting his job. His standards are unclear, and his behavior is problematic. Has anyone confronted him above his anger? Good night! He appears to be a hot mess.
PS What did Dave Ramsey think of the Starr Report? Did he believe Clinton’s behavior was righteous?
“Ramsey’s faith-based values influence company policies” but do not influence Ramsey evidently.
And to think that churches stumble over themselves to buy his materials for teaching financial management. Of course, embedded in his teaching is instruction for the pew to be faithful to tithe 10% to the church … a gimmick Ramsey uses to get church leaders on his side, to turn a deaf ear to reports of his misbehaving.
I repeat … the Christian Industrial Complex is a mess … it has little to do with Christ and lots to do with industry (power, prestige, profit).
Add vice to the list.
From the post:
“Ramsey’s behavior appears not to fall under his righteous standards.”
Rules for thee and not for me … is in the Strongman playbook as researched by Ruth Ben-Ghiat. Authoritarian Autocrat playbook, IOW.
I live in Nashville and we have to put up with all the Ramsey “crap” all the time. As a psychotherapist I’ve had several clients who worked with Ramsey or had departed and they were all traumatized. It is a company totally built on complementarianism.
Sick . . .
This post highlights a deep issue that I have seen over and over again in the stories on TWW. That is, the lack of accountability of these “leaders” with respect to “Christ-like” behavior…. and by this, I mean exhibiting the behavoir that, for example, the Beatitudes advocates…
While TWW focuses most on sexual abuse, I have been struck by how “mean” many of these leaders are, and how there seems to be no “push back”… Ramsey’s behavior is just plain disgusting, and most “evil, secular humanist” orgs would confront this behavior.. unless, of course, they are the “BIG time rainmakers”… funny, haven’t we been saying that about the “Evangletical Industrial Complex”??
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
P.S.. for example, it has been well documented that Steve Jobs could be a real SOB to workers sometimes… and other “BIG SHOT” CEO types are also know for being real SOBs…
https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/pithinthewind/deposition-yes-dave-ramsey-pulled-out-a-gun-in-a-staff-meeting/article_1e2f5737-7e82-53e6-a99f-817d5b189c05.html
This alone is a problem. If an employer is regularly traumatizing employees, that is a massive issue.
Let alone that I don’t know how anyone can say with a straight face that the person who exposes an affair is worse than the person engaging in the affair. Does this apply to the rest of the 10 Commandments? Is the person who exposes the murder, worse than the murderer?
There is no Biblical basis for his stance.
And Ramsey is no different, but (definitely in my book) worse because he does his deeds in the name of God. He takes God’s name in vain by claiming his own righteousness while acting like a cad. Good grief!!
Bridget,
. . . he doesn’t seem to see his own fullishness.
Again we see that prominent church leaders get a pass on lousy behavior. Sigh, when will peons in the pews vote with their feet and their pocketbooks in order to hold leaders accountable?
Ramsey’s lawyers also managed to get a gag order on Melissa J Hogan during her own divorce proceedings. She talked about it in the most recent Untangled Faith Podcast (Ep 54), which is great, by the way, and deals with NDAs and silencing techniques churches use.
And don’t get me started on the absolutely bat-poop crazy letter Ramsey sent to Bob Smietana, and his whole company, and also a bunch of pastors. https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/full-ramsey-solutions-response/
From the main article up-top:
“Dave Ramsey called Melissa Hogan a “world-class bitch” (sorry about the word, but it is an accurate recounting and necessary to the story.)”
No need to be sorry one millimeter, I use colorful language quite often.
Shades of grey get sooooo boring, a little color is often just what the doctor ordered.
Again, it’s a mystery to me how these kinds of guys get the traction they do in ‘Christian’ circles.
Tracy Schorn, who goes by “Chump Lady” publishes a blog five days a week about divorce and adultery. She is the daughter of a Methodist pastor, but frequently uses the vocabulary of a sailor. Why? Because the effects of adultery are minimized by the perpetrators, their apologists and those who feel uncomfortable talking about it. She describes the Reconciliation Industrial Complex (RIC) that makes money by pushing innocent parties and abusers back together in unholy wedlock. Ramsey apparently has one of these therapists on retainer! Never mind the abuse, get these two back in the same group photo because we got product to sell!
Check out her blog at Chumplady.com
Muff Potter,
Not “colorful.” It’s ugly, and really dehumanizing. Any woman who is in any way assertive (not aggressive, assertive) gets called this (and worse). Honestly – and no offense – men have no idea. (I’ve been called this, and more than once, along with other epithets.)
Just saying.
Ramsey isn’t a church leader. He runs a business. But he wants the protections and esteem he thinks evangelical church leaders should have. The same “protections” it has been clear that fail church members. He hasn’t wised up yet (and I’m not sure he will) that everyone is onto that scheme.
I see a lot of Christians now saying things like “Ramsey used to be a good resource but he’s scary now.”
I think his time is up…
marco,
And “Evangelicals” wonder why “The Press” is out to get them…..
They definitely would be very offended if the same thing were said about them that they say about women.
numo,
some; those
Assuming you intended
It’s not a term one can brush off like “christian”, it’s a reality.
I gave you answers to your previous questions in the last few threads.
Be aware some of your comments don’t get moderated.
Billions of boys are now being told by commerce and administration at spiritual instigation that they are toxic by essence. I know of sensitive ones who don’t go into Ramsey-like professions or relations (or any relations or professions).
Several commenters’ comments get inserted the following day.
Ramsey and his allies make a lot of money out of their sabotage of humanity.
By the time you read this on Friday I hope you’ll have realised you should invite us to pull together and not do any writing off. I’ll accept “honorary woman” for my gentlemanliness though.
And that is what it really means “to take God’s name in vain.” Autocratic, narcissistic, unspiritual, immoral religious folks don’t understand that as they ought. Indeed, most TWW posts are about “Christians” who have used God’s name in a way that dishonors Him and His character.
I need some honesty from American readers about America please. What year did the American government flag up to American children aged 14 that its job was to present to them sex outside marriage?
Instead of leaving our private business with our privates as private to us with guidance or not from parents, friends at our discretion, like it previously always was.
In England HM government did this in 1969, shortly after the main churches ceased supplicating for the world.
I understand the bosses among American settlers (Quakers and the like) have intruded into children’s privates all along which is why you let government take away your very personalities and then protest when it touches your flabby religions?
America enforces circumcision which causes severe insensitivity leading to many of the world’s perversions.
Exactly. There is no Biblical “hierarchy of sins.”
My husband and I took a Financial Peace class back in 2009. Ramsey is charismatic and I can appreciate some of his advice. But his “get rid of your credit cards” backfired on us when I did just that. Later, my husband and I tried on two separate occasions to rent a car with a Visa-branded debit card, which Ramsey said was okay to do. On the first occasion, the company wanted our last month’s bank statement. On the second occasion, the company flat out said, “no.” After that, I did get a credit card . . . and we have had to use it on occasion because the money has just not been there in the bank. We did just get it paid off.
I stopped listening to him when a woman called in asking, should we borrow money for an adoption? Dave flat said, “no” and was very condescending to her. When a listener emailed him saying, “Dave, you were kind of short with her,” he doubled down on his advice AND his attitude.
Bob reports on religion and just wrote a book looking at how the church can continue to remain relevant despite declining numbers. He’s not the enemy. Ramsey just doesn’t like accountability. He thinks he has business and Christianity figured out.
I have always hated Dave Ramsey – is that too strong a term? He is a pompous jerk – is that too strong a term? Anyone with a modicum of common sense can discern their finances without listening to the likes of him. But if help is necessary, I prefer an individual whose initials are SO, about whom I am sure Dave Ramsey would have some choice words.
Christians, use the common sense God gave you!
Does this really surprise anybody?
Another Mighty ManaGAWD acting like a Mighty ManaGAWD, Sacred Testosterone and all.
All that’s missing is hitting on subordinate women like Massa with his Animate Property.
What fellowship has Light to do with Darkness(TM)?
Has he incorporated his business as a 501c3 Chursh(TM) yet?
We had a blog posting how that’s very popular these days.
Total Korban secrecy plus Tax Free!
Especially when compared to Christianese theo-babble mealy-mouthing.
The Great White Throne and Eternal Hell can be quite a motivator to NOT rock the boat.
Fear and Guilt manipulation are quite useful to GAWD’s Anointed and their cash flow.
With all ability to think critically replaced by BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!, churches have surpassed the CCP and North Korea in breeding/training totally domesticated two-legged livestock. And the MenaGAWD drool at the thought of the taste of fresh mutton.
“If you question what I say or do
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
They don’t call it “The Jesus Racket” for nothing.
Lotsa big bucks in The Jesus Racket.
numo,
I agree, and I avoid the ‘b’ word in my colorful fusillades.
Totally agree, and I can’t stand the Dave Ramseys of this world.
I doubt that the child was concerned about whether or not they borrowed money to give him/her a forever home. Hope that worked out OK for that family. Ramsey obviously doesn’t know everything.
The American church really needs to think through who they give the microphone to … we’ve given some real characters a platform.
Just like Calvin Had God All Figured Out!
Wonder if Ramsey used the ‘b’ word because he couldn’t get away with the ‘c’ word.
After all, that’s SEXUAL and thus automatically taboo for Respectable Christians!
Max,
You got that right… the more I think about all of this, and the more stories I hear about Ramsey, the madder I get.. what a grifter….
Another nail in the coffin for me to want to be assoicated with anything “Evangelical”…
I have seen enough to be “highly suspecious” of anything “pitched” by “big name” Envangelicals… I do NOT TRUST anything these clowns endorse… from good old pervert Ravi, to this nutjob Ramsey, and “pool boy” Falwell Jr., what a lowsy record.. Oh, and I forgot about McDonalds son peeing into a cup in front of staff!!!!
You can not make this stuff up, it is so “over the top”
I wonder. What colorful word would be the appropriate male counterpart? Using that specific word to describe a man has a vastly different connotation than when its used to describe a woman. So is it even possible, in the English language, to say the same kind of thing about a man?
Queen Elizabeth II has passed on.
May she rest in the bosom of Abraham.
ES,
Historically, saying a man is impotent, or not “man enough” ranks up there.. BUT, the movement toward acceptance/embracing of homosexuality has significantly “ lessened” this insult….
Muff Potter,
May she indeed. Pray for the UK as Charles ascends the throne. Nothing good has come from any previous Charles. My name might have to change from Lowlandseer to Covenanter. There are battles ahead I fear.
And I send this from the island of Lopud, the most beautiful of the Croatian islands, where I have been privileged to be part of my son’s wedding to a wonderful Irish lass.
And yes I’m feeling very emotional on such a wonderful day.
Lowlandseer,
Congratulations!
Lowlandseer
Congratulations. And be emotional! I would.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Paul Inc. Get your Christian tents here!
numo,
Michael in UK,
As a youngster and still now, I’ve always believed everyone else was as unique as I am. God made us menchildren and womenchildren together, not subtractively. This means all the time we are not married too. This is in Gen 3 and it is in Jesus’ words. When small I was in pain, insecure, lonely and uncertain of prospects (this dented my self respect but not my self esteem). Now I am in pain, insecure, lonely and uncertain of prospects.
Circumstances or providence helped me hang on. One day they won’t. This is because this planet is like that, not because I supposedly belonged to a caste. Since the main churches abolished prayer before 1969, no woman can explain to me how to relate to them who are all differently unique anyway and no friend can either. The William James-Bismarck system wants us to manoeuvre before we are manoeuvred.
Anyone that wants to place creedence in their “nasty christian financial advisor” or their “nice pastor” when that “nasty christian financial advisor” or “nice pastor” is an essentialist, reifier and dominionist hasn’t realised this doesn’t add up. This scene isn’t somewhere where some of the operatives have got it wrong. It’s untruthfully based altogether.
That is why I and Josh Harris and one of the Pipers call ourselves agnostics: firstly to slough off false assumptions about our adherence by “christians” or onlookers, and secondly so that we can believe as much real Bible truth as we like on the quiet without loud mouths breathing down our necks, and help equip our peers in this more perilous age than any before. (I currently barefacedly infiltrate two church congregations which don’t find grounds not to let me, and I give money to both.)
In 2011 I spent 90 seconds establishing that his being browbeaten on his hospital bed at age 17 and unexplained references to cricket undermined his credibility. Was I supposed to tell everyone? I remember what it’s like to be 17.
I didn’t understand the infatuation of the Church of England and New Wine corporation with him. I didn’t understand why the evangelist John Lennox and the humanitarian Orr Ewing abandoned their real gifts.
Big name churches have been going trendy since before I was 14, that seems to be their foible. There are so many trendy big name churches, I tried them out thoroughly for a great many years, I am always eager and don’t turn my nose up at anything.
Falwell Senior a Manifest Destiny Segregationist Swedenborgian ate sour grapes and I feel sorry for his child, Junior, teeth on edge, who knew he didn’t believe and knew he could negotiate a nice trampoline when fed up. Senior was very fashionable indeed in the UK and (my education falling behind) I already sensed he was of just the same usual manoeuvring lording it mindset. (Segregationism isn’t a blip in one’s social manifesto.)
Michael in UK,
Sorry, but this reply is a bit of a headscratcher.
Choose to be offended if you wish; again… that wasn’t my intention.
Was this really necessary?! Your assumptions about gay men (and, by extension, women) are really not kind.
I’m betting you’ve met many gay men whom you’ve never suspected were gay b/c they’re actually pretty maculine, as our society judges these things.
Here’s the thing: assuming that gay men are all either effiminate or feminine is right there with thinking that women are lesser beings, too.
A whole lot of gay men have that same kind of prejudice against “effeminate” gay men.
Might be hard for you to imagine, but it’s true nonetheless.
(As an aside, is there nobody out there who can help straight men understand that gay folk aren’t all exactly like each other, and/or exactly like the stereotyped gay characters that are still a staple of movies and TV?)
Sorry, Jeffrey – i was a studio art major in undergrad and am also an amateur musician. So I’ve been around lots of gay men over the years. In most cases, straight men don’t notice that most of the fellows I’ve kniwn either are gay, or, for those who’ve since died, were.)
numo,
Oh gosh – i could have worded the above a bit more carefully. That comment comes across as an attack. By “you” i mean plural “you,” not you, Jeffrey (except for where i addressed you directly, at the end).
My apologies. I need to reread more carefully before hitting “post.”
Muff Potter,
That was never in doubt! But i do truly appreciate your reply. 🙂
Years ago I followed Jon Acuff on social media, and was surprised when he went to work for Ramsey. But hey, he had a young family at the time and I’m sure the steady work and opportunity to stay in town instead of constant touring was attractive. Acuff left Ramsey shortly after, and said absolutely nothing about it that I know of. I’m sure there’s a solid NDA in place.
Amen.
so sad today . . . my sister called me crying when she heard the news . . . like the passing of an ‘era’
I know a Muslim dentist who is more ‘Christian’ than Ramsey.
I’ve questioned whether it’s appropriate for churches to sponsor Financial Peace University (and even pay for it) because churches stand to benefit monetarily. Ramsey REALLY pushes tithing, pushes it very early, before anything else, and churches love that sort of thing. It makes me wince.
numo,
There was no value judgments in my statement. The question was raised if there is a male equivalent to calling a women a “b$Tch”..
and I answered as a purely a historical statement… which I saw first hand. And I suggest that our society has become more accepting…..( or at least police are not raiding gay bars and clubbing the patrons., but as we saw in Todds video in earlier post, some fundies still advocate killing homosexuals)
In fact, I have noticed that, at least in my circles, kids/young people do not make these kind of insults nearly as much as when I was a kid.
As for a “judgment” statement… I think it is good that this insult is losing its use….Attacking someones “apparent” sexuality cuts to the core of their being…
numo,
I bet some of those gay men did not want others to know because they did not want to be attacked….I have never understood why seemingly straight, normal men, would react with violent treats toward homosexuals??? Really? Do they feel “threatened”
Jeffrey Chalmers,
PS… Ramsey hits me as the “ kid of guy” that would make insults at other men “questioning their sexuality and performance”….
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Yes, i share your bewilderment. Those who endure the most, and are killed most frequently, though, are transwomen and transmen. The hatred is baffling, yet is barely acknowledged in mainstream media.
Ikwym about younger people, too.
Ramsey found a market niche where he was just enough Christian and church leaders were just enough gullible for them to form a symbiotic relationship to jointly the work the pew for more dough. Ramsey’s “ministry” is a poster boy example of a success story within the Christian Industrial Complex in which Ramsey has found financial peace, indeed.
Bookbolter,
I followed that as well. I bet he had an NDA and a nice severance.
I understand what you are saying. But when we call a woman a B, we mean she is strident, unreasonably mean, often capricious and generally speaking an unpleasant and abrasive person. When we call a man a B, we almost mean the exact opposite. We mean that he is effeminate and likely allows himself to be dominated by someone else. It is kind of the same thing as what you are describing.
Do we have a word that says a man is: mean, strident, capricious and generally speaking unpleasant and abrasive? Petty Tyrant, might be a good choice, but I don’t think that has the same shock value that B does. Is this because ultimately we think that its kind of okay if a man is those things rather than being effeminate?
ES,
*I understand that was Jeffrey Chalmer’s response to me rather than Numos.
I guess to get this back on subject: Do we have a appropriate word to describe Ramsey’s behavior? And does that word have the same level of shock value that B does.
And now, it is not lost on me that perhaps Ramsey was projecting when he called Mellissa Hogan a B.
ES,
The reason I am asking this question is because the b word is thrown around a lot when people want a woman to shut up, sit down and do as she is told. That woman could be appropriately angry, like I would imagine Mellissa Hogan was in dealing with her husband and his behavior. It’s used to silence women via shock and embarrassment. That’s why Ramsey used it. He wanted her to sit down and do what he told her to do, even though that would ultimately harm her.
Is there a similar word that is used to do this to men?
ALPHA MALE.
Lotsa Hush Money to go with the Gag Order.
FreshGrace,
“I have always hated Dave Ramsey – is that too strong a term? He is a pompous jerk – is that too strong a term? Anyone with a modicum of common sense can discern their finances without listening to the likes of him…
Christians, use the common sense God gave you!”
+++++++++++++++++++
no, not too strong a term, in both cases. it’s honest.
give me an honest pine cone for breakfast any day.
those who wear the christian influencer/leader hat teach their followers to fear their common sense and to rely on them instead for the answers to grow their base and customer market.
there’s no money in common sense.
somehow it’s easier and feels good to be told what to do in a long, drawn-out way. (with glossy materials, and other smoke and mirrors)
The male equivalent of bi*** works for me. Bas**** describes him and others like him quite well. I like neither word as they demean proper names for the male and female of a person’s best friend 😉
Muff Potter,
“I avoid the ‘b’ word”
+++++++++++
same here.
standard fare for “your self-confidence is threatening my self-confidence, and how dare you presume to think you have the right to have self-confidence!”
other words are accurate, technical terms.
ES,
You raise an excellent point…. In the venture capital/investment banking/big time CEO, world, hyper aggressive, “take no prisoner”, “destroy your opponent” can be “venerated” by many…. But, if a women exhibits this, she can be called a b$tch…. I have actual seen it happen
A-HOLE?
elastigirl,
On the other hand, I’m known to drop the F-bomb quite often…
Yes, and I go running in the opposite direction, because that kind of guy is going to eventually call me a B. But some men are quiet happy to call themselves that (even when they aren’t), so the kind of guy who behaves that way is more likely to take that as a compliment rather than hesitate.
There are some women who have embraced the B word and it doesn’t stop them. And not all of them are bad people. But most women do not appreciate that term.
That is probably the closest.
But to be Bas…. somehow, that blames it on his mom… Why is it her fault?
Did you know that Female Psychopaths exhibit different behaviors than male psychopaths? And this is largely considered to be a product of the exact dynamic that you describe. We value these traits in men, and male psychopaths display them. We do not value these traits in women, therefore, female psychopaths develop different social behaviors that do work for them.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201906/why-female-psychopaths-are-different-breed
Nope. Another place where the dad is just as responsible as the mom, even if through the ages men were the untouchables and women took the blame.
Churches and church schools can legally refuse to hire people who openly flout church teachings. But if you’re not a church, and you have more than 50 employees, can you do so? I’m no legal beagle, but I don’t think so.
As for the rest of the story…yeah, that explains my tendency to watch my wallet and run the other way when a business tells me how Christian they are.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
There are well documented cases for Steve Jobs was a “A-hole” and some people still venerate him… I do admire some aspects of Steve Jobs, but I also think that his “negatives” should be “glossed over”
Elon?
ES,
Elizabeth Homes???
Fair. Then why is it the parent’s fault? Bi… puts the blame squarely on the named person. Bas… drags their parents into the equation.
This is purely an exploration of how our language possibly reveals our cultural bias. Do we make excuses for men who behave this way, or spread their responsibility around to their environment, but expect women to behave impeccably regardless of their environment? Does our language reveal, or support this bias?
She has been accused of that by more than one person. This is an excellent analysis, if you have a good two hours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPWZ4aAtt3c
I personally avoid using cluster B personality disorders as “names” to call people. I’m unqualified, and the more I learn about them, the less qualified I feel to identify them. They are just so complicated.
Side note: The Behavior Panel also did an excellent analysis of James Dobson’s interview of Ted Bundy. Spoiler: they don’t like Dobson at all. I really want to ask them to review some of the Christian celebrities we talk about here. I think it would be fascinating, but a limited audience.
numo,
No, I don’t “choose to be offended”; you can see what I was pointing out, which is rooted in essentialism.
christiane,
I’m literally choking on the things that were done in her name to my peers and its norm alising effect round the world, following the ceasing of supplication by major religions at the time.
Way back when, the church that we attended told my husband and I to go through FPU because of concerns about our high debt. It was mostly things that I had tried to get my husband to do for quite a while (except for the no-debt thing). I had already found out the consequences of having no credit history and was starting to build one, and the church was realistic about the necessity of credit for all kinds of things. Aside from Ramsey’s abrasive tone, I had problems with a number of his teachings because I have a good grasp of finances. Our problem was that my husband would overspend.
That was the only time that we worked together on the budgeting, and then it stopped after the church requirements were met.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
numo,
and all your other comments above on the same subject:
Very well observed both of you. In the UK one of the latest alarming developments (among others) however, is that if a boy drops his wrists, wears a scarf or has emotions he is relegated to a separate caste, because agency / contractor personnel can’t see below the surface, and the other children then pile in with insults. I fear this will spread west soon. The origin is that dominionist churches are “reconciling” with the international denomination that imported paedophilia into itself via selected seminary personnel while supplication was dwindling, so that a hatefully vicious boy is more likely to project an image of being able to fend off predators; and secular families / authorities copy the mid-atlantic resurgent church ones.
I never noticed a difference other than what I call individuality, between fellows (of any age) not called gay in various meanings, and those called gay in various meanings either then or subsequently. I still don’t. Am I too used to seeing people as they are?
I would agree with how you defined B. Maybe add manipulative as an additional component.
To my way of thinking, A-hole is the term for men that is a close approximation of your definition for B.
There are probably nuanced differences between the terms, but in my mind B always refers to a woman and A-hole always to a man. In a sense they almost seem to be gendered terms from my perspective.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
That’s the word I was thinking of, among the less salty terms…
What I meant their was about the birth, not the character of the person. However, some parents are very poor parents and they do contribute to the poor character of their children. The children can overcome that if they choose. We don’t get to choose our parents though.
Being in the US, I am unfamiliar with what you are referring to.
That works as well.
Wrong their, there.
Theiy’re. Fixed it for you.
This does not reflect the America in which I live. The government has not taken away our personalities. The Quakers did not do what you are describing. Circumcision is somewhat controversial but still widely practiced, chosen by families, and not associated with perversions. It is not enforced by America.
Perhaps you are talking about family life curriculum. From the materials I reviewed in our school district, this is factual and practical information. It does not encourage promiscuity or premarital sex or anything else. I assure you that students find it as tedious as the Pythagorean Theorem.
You should come visit America sometime. It’s not what you think.
Yep. I’m sure its that one!
Somebody has been lying to you.
US Sex education in schools is state dependent, and some states still teach abstinence only education, using Federal funding. Furthermore, parents can choose to opt their children out of Sex Ed. So it isn’t even mandatory. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/abstinence-only-education-states Furthermore, the States that mandate abstinence only education have the highest teen pregnancy rates, so it kind of has a really terrible track record: https://www.innerbody.com/abstinence-only-states-have-highest-rates-teen-pregnancy-stds
Other states teach more comprehensive sex education. Honestly? This is basic biology, and it’s very important for people to understand it. As for parents doing the education? I personally think that is beyond foolish. I was lucky enough to have a mom who wasn’t squeamish and had a pretty good education from her (I was homeschooled and therefore never even had the opportunity to take it in the public school system), but I went to college in Tennessee, and let me tell you, I needed to educate some of my friends because they simply weren’t educated, because their parents either didn’t know, or they were too squeamish to do it. Just because that is the way something has always been done, doesn’t mean that we should continue to do it that way. We used to bleed people for fevers, now we don’t. We used to farm with hand tools. Now we don’t. I could go on.
As for us having the government rob us of our personalities: Funny, that’s what I heard Socialism did in Great Britain, Germany, Russia, and China. I heard that pretty much only Americans still have their unique personalities. And I’ve done enough traveling to know that this is absolute poppycock.
As to the Quakers, they are a really small population, and I generally don’t associate them with control freaks.
America does not enforce circumcision at all. Parents make that decision, and depending on where you are people feel very strongly one way or the other. But no government agency has any say. There are groups trying to have it outlawed. I have worked in numerous church nurseries, and have changed way more than my fair share of diapers. Plenty of little boys don’t get circumcised.
Michael in UK,
That sounds like a viewpoint drawn from a lot misinformation. Nothing about what you presented sounds familiar. That is not to say that there are not a lot of issues here.
To say that circumcision leads to all sorts of perversions is pretty out there and probably not supported by any science. I doubt the US is any more (or less) perverted than many European countries. Although, I will say that the US has been very effective at spreading debased behavior via Hollywood.
Afterburne,
🙂
Afterburne,
I didn’t state Europe isn’t more perverted, amongst other causes because even more centralised hitherto.
Some other Americans offered me insights about an overly-intimate but superficial mentality in early settlements. Do readers think attitudes to current authorities are inherited from that milieu?
As for England 1969, I was there. I observed religion in the run up to then. Whatever gets normalised in England, then gets normalised elsewhere afterwards.
This was HM government “discussion lesson” as I have described previously. I hold that politicians and corporations should keep their faces out of children’s privates. My call is a call to stop normalisation.
As for circumcision – a useless compulsory intrusion in most cases – I said that it leads to severe insensitivity, meaning what I have put. Sensitivity and insensitivity are at first hand eyewitness respectively.
I commented that insensitivity in the context you valuably pointed out, the potency of visual mass media which Marshall McLuhan warned us each to adopt new strategies to harness wholesomely, and the context I sometimes point out, the dwindling of supplication in big religions, has been underlying to the spread of perversions to whatever places.
I’m not sure what is referred to by the phrase “probably not supported by any science”, it might be what institution doesn’t fancy taking on related projects, they are puzzled how to frame them, and meantime our own reality is here for us to understand of our own responsibility and power. Knowledge is built by for example the child with background information and inference who spots a new planet from his bedrooom window and starts sharing his observation. In my young day authorities (they still had lots of good days) were still trying to roll science – as part of knowledge – out to everybody.
Christian gifts are potentised by sharing, and that is treasure in the kingdom of heaven. In cases where Christian and other Knowledge has been taken away from us, by William James (enforced corner cutting) and Bismarck (people are to be pushed around) through dominionism and segregationism, we orphans whether on church fringes or agnostics, need to club together to have and share knowledge anew.
My prayer aspiration for this thread is that we’ll see with X ray eyes like God sees. The Glory Be is a good prayer to supplicate with because it is full of relating.
Friend,
Glad to hear about your district. Gratefulness to God about one’s locality shouldn’t dampen alertness to more advanced (and informative) dangers for some others. The most powerful entities in our lives operate outside local boundaries by writing laws. If they don’t want to intrude in some of your affairs, they don’t (divide and rule, like the subjects of the recommended article).
This is how the Ramseys or the Pattersons have got to the pitch they have since supplication from major religions (especially in Europe) dwindled. They weren’t under the influence of your good district. According to Holy Scripture we are called to interc ede for all people everywhere, which is how the public will get freed from the behaviours of the Ramseys, the Pattersons and their secular copycats.
Thank you for reacting because my aspiration is that we’ll see the world’s and the churches’ problems with X ray eyes.
Lowlandseer,
Not to be ad hominem about any individual, but a definite thank you to you from me.
ES,
We don’t, because Ramsey’s behavior has societal approval.
Afterburne,
I just want to be clear that Michael’s views regarding Americans are not ones I have heard here in the UK. It may just be that I know too many actual Americans to give any of that much credence.
And if circumcision causes perversion then why was it used by God as a sign of being set apart to him in the Jewish nation? I’m pretty sure that Jesus, as a Jew, would have been circumcised.
I haven’t heard these particular views either, but when I was living in Germany, I got exposed to some interesting conspiracy theories about Americans, and was told by more than one classmate (international program, so not necessarily German) that I just didn’t know about my own country and was essentially brainwashed. Most people were reasonable, but every now and then, someone was deeply mis-informed.
You have got to get way more specific here, about which group you are talking about. It is entirely possible that some of your friends are from a specific region and are talking about things very local to that region that nobody here has been exposed to. It’s also possible they could be talking about a specific religious group that is very localized (there are a lot of those and they are like islands).
The US was settled by vastly different groups all up and down the east coast, and then as we expanded west, entirely new groups came in from places like Germany and Scandinavia. There simply isn’t one culture. I was raised by 50% New England Protestants (25% British immigrant 1st generation and 25% Pilgrim descendants) and 50% Arkansas country (not hillbilly, that is different too). And I was a Military brat, and I was homeschooled, and I was Calvinist. Furthermore, I was raised in an area where even though I am white, the population surrounding me is 95% black. I now live in an area where Hispanics, Iranians and both conservative and liberal Jews make up a significant portion of the population. Each of those is a separate subculture with different roots.
There are absolutely places within the US that are very Homogenous culturally. But they do not make up the majority of the US.
1. Observation: There are sexual predators in the world. All seek to protect their own access to victims. Some work alone. Some set up networks.
2. Conspiracy theory: Worldwide governments, churches, and/or educational systems secretly work in league to create universal sex trafficking.
TWW informs us about the observation (item 1). The existence of TWW tends to disprove the conspiracy theory (item 2), because TWW has been around a long time, and we have not all been silenced.
We have the power to improve things. In order to do so, we need to separate events from fearmongering. We also need to support one another as we heal from our own experiences of abuse.
Thanks. I did not think that those views were predominant, or even common, in the UK.
However, it did feel necessary, IMO, to correct that in what I hope was at least a somewhat gentle manner.
Every nation has folks within it that have, shall we say, unusual views of folks from other nations. Some of those unusual views may be in the population in general and some of those views will exist in subsets of the population. I am sure I have some completely wrong ideas about other cultures.
Conspiracy theories of all kinds exist. Some folks seem to be more prone to them in general. I know a number of folks that always seem to be slavering over some kind of right-wing conspiracy theory or another. Many of them I once considered fairly close acquaintances. Their move to the extreme right and belief in extreme nonsensical ideas has left me wondering what the heck happened to them. It has also resulted in my mourning the loss of no small amount of people I used to be fairly close to. Not that there are bad feelings, there is just so little common ground anymore since they are more interested in discussing their pet theory of the day than they are in discussing Christ.
This phenomenon is not restricted to conservatives of course, I have heard some equally bizarre ideas from my more liberal acquaintances.
I puzzle over why some folks are so much more susceptible to this than other folks are.
You are not the only one 🙂 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180925075108.htm
Michael in UK,
I think maybe you would benefit from some good reading on this country. Whatever you’ve been seeing/hearing/reading is so wrong as to = a pack of lies from beginning to end.
You know, I’ve spent time in the UK, and I’ve read plenty of UK history + much literature produced (way in the past til now) by writers from what’s now the UK as well as the Republic of Ireland.
Might i gently suggest that you would find some good reading beneficial? I have taken lots of time to learn about the UK over the years. It seems to me that you might want to return the favor.
As to differences between people, i think any large group of men, women, trans folk, etc. are going to vary greatly. You know, b/c they’re individuals. Imget tired of seeing pernicious stereotypes of LGBTQ+ people thrown around by evangelicals and that’s what motivated my initial post about gay men on this thread. People are people, regardless of sexual orientation and gender. And so people, being human, deserve respect and kindness from other humans.
ES,
THIS
BeakerN,
Also THIS
Michael in UK,
“…overly-intimate but superficial mentality in early settlements.”
Michael, i have no idea what you’re talking about, quite literally. Whatever it is, my educated guess is that you’ve been sold a bill of goods.
But i have to admit that the wording of many things you say is either extremely euphemistic or else skewed. I’m not blaming you, but i have great difficulty understanding what you mean to say. If you could be more specific, it might be helpful.
But it does feel, to me, anyway, that we’re talking psst each other at this point. As a P.S., part of my academic training was in history, so i have to reiterate that this “overly intimate” comment is very confusing.
As to Quakers, I’m from Pennsylvania, and the colony was founded by a Quaker – William Penn. There used to be many Quakers in the Philadelphia area, also in New Jersey. That said, there aren’t terribly many Quakers in the Us, which is also true of colonial times here. Agaiin, im7ncertain as to why you’ve mentioned them.
numo,
* I’m uncertain
ES,
Yeah, I’ve heard some very strange things from various Europeans, though i wasn’t prepared for getting hit with some very strange claims made by someone frommthe Netherlands who, in early 2021, attacked me after i said that a) I’d just gotten my 1st C19 shot and b) stated that my mom died of C19, back in late 2020.
The person claimed that C19 doesn’t exist.
I no longer have any contact with them. It seems there are European analogues to many conspiracy theories that are prevalent among certain segments of the US population.
Lowlandseer,
No?
I’m sorry, but this conflicts with what i know aabout both Chas I and II. Although arguably, Charles II was not exactly a prize, during his reign there were many scientific, literary and artistic innovations in what’s now the UK.
As for the long, bloody aftermath of the English Reformation, not going there.
Michael in UK,
No, sorry, i don’t understand what you were saying. I really don’t. But i think it for the best if i bow out for now, anyway.
I heard that an alien culture from the Pleiades star cluster has been injecting unsuspecting women the UK with their DNA, and that the British Parliament is in full compliance.
Muff Potter,
Oh is that what the needle mark I woke up with from?
And, evidently, as well as the American church which essentially bankrolls his “ministry”.
ES,
My thoughts also. I’m quite puzzled by Michael’s comments. I work in healthcare in the US and while I would say that male circumcision is extremely common (and some religious subgroups besides Jewish do practice it across the board), it is by no means universal. Nor is it “enforced” by anyone. The decision is up to the parents of baby boys, and while it’s normal and a no-brainer to some, a significant minority skip it. And nobody says boo about it that I’ve ever heard. I also think you’re right about sex ed. While American pop cultural exports may give a different impression, large swathes of the population here are VERY conservative when it comes to these matters. And they have far more social and political influence than some narratives (including their own at times) admit.
Yesterday, I had a long conversation with a Public School teacher on what she and I would add to “Health classes” that had nothing to do with intimate relationships and everything to do with recognizing health issues related to parts of our bodies that we keep covered from all but intimate partner(s). Basically, if you see this, you, your partner, or both of you need to see a doctor. If you see this other thing, its a normal variation on the human body and nothing to worry about.
It’s not like when my BIL had a rash on his arm that the doctor said was ring worm and I looked at it and said “That is not what my ring worm looked like, did the Dr. biopsy it?” “No” “You might want to get a second opinion then…” Turned out it was an allergic reaction to his medication. We don’t get that kind of feedback (nor should we) for certain types of health issues. Instead we suffer with them silently, or shroud them in shame and secrecy.
It frustrates me that so many American’s object so strongly to learning about things that could 1) save a life 2) make your life better 3) prevent future infertility. It seems totally counter productive.
“an oral sex act had begun but was not completed, according to him,” Ramsey said.”
Of course this is not the main issue (that’s the hypocrisy and double standards), but does anyone else find this patently ridiculous coming from any adult, never mind one who claims to set moral standards for others? “Yeah, sex is for marriage and the guy admitted to doing some stuff with someone he wasn’t married to, but it was just oral sex and he didn’t even climax, so we figured it didn’t really count. The whole thing was his crazy b*tch wife’s fault anyway.” He either has a terribly constricted view of sex and marital fidelity, or he thinks he can bs his way out of accountability. Or both.
Really, in what world is this a mitigating circumstance? I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that no one thought it was relevant whether the woman who got fired for premarital sex had an orgasm. Oh wait-there’s the hypocritical double standards.
What an absolute dumpster fire.
Michael in UK,
“Michael from UK”, you have been becoming less understandable over the past few months, with jargon and references that are a complete mystery to me. I don’t think European and North American English have drifted that far apart; you may be getting too far into your own version of Christianese.
“Covenanter”?
Is that a Roundhead?
Lowlandseer, we Yanks have enough problems with Righteous Crazies who dream of LARPing our Civil War.
DON’T DO THE SAME ON YOUR SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC WITH CROMWELL, ET AL!
ES,
“It frustrates me that so many American’s object so strongly to learning about things that could 1) save a life 2) make your life better 3) prevent future infertility. It seems totally counter productive.”
Well, that’s because it IS counterproductive! But don’t get me started
Back in the Paleozoic Era, the biology teacher taught us the basics about human anatomy. The health teacher taught about tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. None of the material encouraged experimentation. All of it came in handy.
In our district today, family life education also has units that teach young people how to protect themselves from spiked drinks and other threatening situations. Even if parents try to teach youngsters that kind of skill, a lot of kids will not be receptive to Mom’s Lecture About Punch Bowls.
I am glad people are talking about these things with kids. My daughter just entered college this fall, and all of the girls know to stick together as well as not accept any open drinks; one of her friends already got a ‘spiked’ one, except it was a guy who accepted a drink from a girl who didn’t want to drink it (and he blacked out that night). Fortunately nothing else bad happened to him, but if the girl had drank it, who knows?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG, I don’t find him all that understandable – sorry Michael – & I’m 54, so no spring chicken, & here on the ground, less than 50 miles from London. I don’t want this comment to sound unkind though, I’d like to see us all better able to communicate & understand each other which is my purpose in writing this comment. It all amy just be that our individual worlds have been so far apart that common ground has eroded.
Back to the original thrust of this thread, I cannot hear thw word B*tch without thinking of Mick the Lip and the Rolling Stones. (Tells you my age…)
And considering the original meaning of the word, a couple years ago I came across this pic of someone for whom it would be a term of endearment:
https://www.deviantart.com/scalerandiart/art/Beware-of-wolves-615997849
ROOFIE.
I knew a guy who’d encountered spiked drinks twice. Once apparent LSD slipped into his Pepsi at an Artist’s Alley (unknown time), the other at the “Dead Dog” (closing) party of an SF con sometine in the Nineties where he forgot to ask what was in the punch. (Big mistake.)
We were carpooling back from the con in San Jose and were hitting Monterey Aquarium on the way back (I was driving). He started showing symptoms between Gilroy and Salinas; the third guy in the car asked some questions and diagnosed what the punch had been spiked with – SOJU (Korean Moonshine, really nasty stuff). Since we were overnighting in Salinas anyway, we got the motel room and decanted him into a bed for the night. Woke up the next morning a bit the worse for wear, but in good enough shape to hit Cannery Row and the Aquarium.
The reality is some of them aren’t receptive to any lecture about punch bowls. But that doesn’t mean that we should deny the ones who are receptive. And for the ones that aren’t, a few minor “told you so’s” can prevent major told you sos later on.
BeakerN,
I think you’re correct, but text-only communication can make things problematic at the best of times.
It’s strange, but sometimes common ground is there for most aspects of life, but for others, not. Don’t know if you caught part of my convo (on a na previous post) with someone who comes from Calvinist/Reformed thought but is now going to a Lutheran church that’s part of my synod (ELCA).
We were talking about mutual incomprehension per us Lutherans per the theology and ideology that she’s come from. I know that my mind is completely boggled by much of Reformed thought; ditto for other parishioners in the congregation she belongs to. It’s as if, per all of that, we come from 2 not-so-parallel universes. In that respect, there’s almost zero common ground, but in everything else, we are from much the same cultural matrix.
It can be very, very difficult to find mutual understanding when certain sets of beliefs, practices and experiences come into play.
So we all wrestle with this, I think, in comments here, but also out in the wider world. Especially true for those who come from religious groups/”churches” that are basically cults, like the ones I was involved with during my years in evangelicaldom.
I don’t know if this will make sense – I’m still half-asleep! 🙂 But I do hope it’s helpful.
Man-O-Manischewitz you said it!
Their sexual ethos shtick is as absurd (and funny) as the Cheshire cat and the Red Queen in Through the Looking Glass.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
No we opposed the Roundheads and all other invading English armies – we had a few victories but mainly heavy defeats. After the battle of Dunbar thousands were marched to Newcastle for deportation to “The Colonies” for employment on the plantations. Some of my ancestors were imprisoned for “not attending the right church.”
It was only the Covenanter ministers in Glasgow who opposed his appalling treatment of the Irish, so much so that some of the Puritan Divines recommended that he did the same to Scotland.
Currently watching King Charles III address the Scottish Parliament. Such a Parcel of rogues in a nation. (Courtesy of Rabbie Burns)
Remember Monicagate and “Clinton Sex”?
Or should that be “Driscoll Sex”?
Or Douggie ESQUIRE with “I did not know her in a Biblical sense (AKA Tab A in Slot B and ONLY Tab A in Slot B)”?
Driscoll Sex.