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“Do not waste time bothering whether you “love” your neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find one of the great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone you will presently come to love him.” CS Lewis
I keep harping on some groups who I believe have a tendency towards authoritarian leadership and unjust church discipline because they are going global. Sovereign Grace Churches continues to open up branches in other countries. Perhaps that is one way to duck the incredibly bad press in the US. Another group that appears to cooperate and support international church plants is 9Marks.
At first, it was a quiet day on Twitter. Then Todd highlighted the following tweet.
Todd then tweeted, in response,
Tyler had retweeted Matt Rogers’s tweet. Tyler, who trained at SBTS and Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church, is fond of 9Marks. I discovered that Tyler is starting Bangkok City Baptist Church affiliated with 9Marks. Here is a screenshot I took at the 9Marks “Church search.” Matt Tyler is the pastor of Bangkok City Baptist Church.
Bangkok, Thailand, has been on my mind since the Ravi Zacharias mess. He kept TWO apartments in this city: Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation.
In Bangkok, he owned two apartments in the early 2010s, sharing a building with one of his massage therapists, the investigators found. The notes app on his phone included Thai and Mandarin translations of phrases like “I’d like to have a beautiful memory with you,” “little bit further,” and “your lips are especially beautiful.”
The massage therapists and the women pictured in Zacharias’s phone albums were decades younger than him, many in their 20s.
Bangkok, Thailand, and the rest of the country are known for human trafficking, especially for the rampant sex industry. You can read about this on Wikipedia and The Exodus Road. So, we have closed down writing about the exploits of Zacharias, primarily because he died, his ministry folded and Lori Ann Thomson came forward. It seems that sex slavery would be the topic of concern for any church that opened in Thailand. Also, it would be wise to have a ministry that focuses on loving those who have been enslaved.
It seems to me that this church and its counterpart in the city might be more interested in doing the 9Marx and The Gospel Coalition thing. I knew why Todd Wilhelm posted this tweet. As one who has been the victim of unjust, retroactive church discipline in a 9Marx church in Dubai-UCCD, now to be called ECCD.
One might think that a church in Dubai would be interested in stopping the coverup of abuse in children and adults. However, they loved CJ Mahaney. When Todd said he wouldn’t sell his books in the bookstore (can you imagine selling Mahaney books in Dubai?!) and decided to leave the church to find something that emphasized decency, he was disciplined after he left because he didn’t find a church fast enough. If you think there are two sides to every story, Todd offered to give them a notarized letter, allowing them to tell me what happened. This caused one of their prominent leaders to go apoplectic, and gasping at the audacity, they refused.
They claim (I had some discussion with one of the top leaders in 9Marx who was cordial until the notarized thing came up.) that church discipline in 9Marx is just fine because the church membership votes on allowing this discipline. It’s not. The people in these churches are trained to acquiesce to authority, and they are also functioning in cultures in which submission to authorities is encouraged.
It appears to me that Bangkok City Baptist Church could be set up to control people who live in a culture that encourages submission. There may also be many people who may have been abused unless the church is planning to reach out to the wealthier foreign nationals instead of the local population.
It is vital to contextualize the Bible.
When Jesus came, he had one main goal. That was to point people to His coming sacrifice, which was rooted in love for His people. (John 3:16) Jesus was no fan of the religious authorities of the day. He accused them of making up many rules that were not based on the Scriptures. He implied His people were hunched over, bearing burdens they couldn’t or shouldn’t carry. As for discipline, the people were pretty beaten up already. It makes sense that most of Jesus’ criticism was aimed at the Pharisees. Matthew 23 is an example of how Jesus viewed the Pharisees.
- Snakes
- Vipers
- Whitewashed tombs
- Hypocrites
- Wicked
- Blind
Jesus came to present a new form of leadership. He was the suffering and loving servant who ran after one stray sheep. As I look over 13 years of blogging, I view many of today’s authoritarian leaders as ones who would boot the stray sheep out the back door and lock up tight.
Is the church afflicted with wolves?
Let me start this off by saying that we are at a disadvantage. Chris Coppenbarger doesn’t like this audience. As we say in North Carolina, “Bless his heart.”
Given the style and content of many of your articles and your audience, I would rather not be included.
He wanted to uphold the church discipline angle of things. His reasoning is essential for folks to understand why so many bad examples of unjust discipline exist.
First, he’s rarely seen bad discipline.
Given his intensity in this exchange, I suspect he’s never seen it or noticed that it was poorly applied.
Second, he assumes that churches should communicate with one another about “discipline” issues.
The underlying problem is this. I never have yet to see a church lay out the parameters for church discipline. Let’s call them the rules of the road. A church should tell members, a priori, what actions will constitute discipline and what would be the parameters surrounding the punishment for that offense. We have laws in the US. A DA would not try you if you questioned a city’s budget or stood peacefully with a protest sign. You would never be thrown into jail for parking in a handicap space without a handicap permit. There are limits to the punishment. How would anyone like it if law enforcement could dream up punishment for driving over the speed limit by about 5 mph. One person would get life in prison and the other would be allowed no punishment at all. How does that sit with you?
Churches can and do discipline for anything and everything. Here is one of a grandmother getting perp-walked out of her church for simply questioning the budget. (I know that will be me one day.) I have examples of church discipline applied for not agreeing with the pastor’s vision casting, accusing the pastor of abuse (she was right), refusing to sell CJ Mahaney books, and not “asking for permission to leave a church,” etc.
How about Matt Chandler sending letters to 6,000 members saying Karen Hinkley was under discipline for refusing to stay married to her kiddie porn-loving husband? The despicable actions of the pastors and elders (one whom I used to know and like) were beyond anything I’ve ever seen. I don’t care if he figured out a way to get out of worldwide disdain by pretending to care for a weekend. I want to know what would cause him to do such a thing in the first place.
How about the woman in John MacArthur’s church who was excommunicated for refusing to stay with her husband, who abused her and sexually abused their kids? (see Julie Roys.) So many women have had to endure this sort of abusive church discipline.
How about the women sexually abused at Liberty and MacArthur’s boutique school? They were told to keep their mouths shut and were accused of leading on the perp?
How about a woman who wanted to leave her church because she had doctrinal differences? That was “not allowed” by the leaders. I helped her to leave in a sneaky way. I have given the tactic to a number of people and got this idea from some people who sneaked out of a 9Marx church, scared even though they were not “under discipline.” They just got tired of the overall nonsense.
I have so many more examples. I think Chris has lived an insulated life if he believes these examples are mere blips in the history of glorious church discipline. His brothers and sisters have suffered. Many have never returned to a church due to this treatment.
Third, he believes that people want to “usurp authority.”
This is where it gets interesting. What does he mean by “usurp authority?” He doesn’t define it, and neither do churches who claim that many people are running around, attempting to “usurp” the authority of church leaders. What kind of authority is usurped? How is it applied to the church? I wrote of one church where the pastor lied about being a died-in-the-wool Calvinista when he was hired. The church membership was not Reformed. Within days of his arrival, he changed the Board of Elders by changing the bylaws. Then he kicked out a bunch of people because they started meeting to figure out what happened. Apparently. a meeting like that was “usurping.” The pastor’s authority was based on a lie. Do you remember when some of the Calvinist groups were telling pastors to lie about the Calvin thing?
Fourth, and this is important, he thinks there are more wolves than predators.
What this means is quite simple. They will kick you out of the church if you so much as woof (Do wolves ever woof?), and then they will call other churches to “report” on you. Except, he doesn’t define wolfish actions or what constitutes a usurpation. Sadly, I believe plenty of men like control and look at their congregants as potential “wolves” who block them from some sort of wielding of authority. When pastors look askance at their membership, assuming that a bunch of wolves are present. How sad is that?
Here is a link to read some responses to Chris.
To those in 9Marx, TGC, or Acts29 churches, take note. Join me in praying for Bangkok City Baptist Church. May the leadership be guided by love, especially for the abused and trafficked. May they lay aside their need to impose sanctions on those who have been exploited. May it not be one more church in which the pastors face a congregation that they think are wolves who are getting ready to usurp authority. May they tread lightly here and not be one more story we will write about.
Matthew 18 again
Matthew 18, which Chris brought up, is the favorite section of the Bible for abusive pastors. It is not hard to refute its usage in today’s abusive churches. I suggest that Chris do some reading on how it is wrongly applied. Here is one example. Yes, sometimes people need to be thrown out of a church, usually for committing a crime like sex abuse which should be reported to the police. So much more to say and so little time.
And, when there are times that people don’t see eye to eye, with church leaders who sometimes act like admirals in rowboats, please “Let my people go” and don’t chase them as a stupid Pharaoh did.
I liked this tweet in response to Chris.
1
Chris may find himself in a closed door meeting some day, and realize there are things he can never unsee.
I used to say similar things as him. But now I got these danged images burned in my retinae.
Once you go through that ringer you also realize how many of your compatriots would have been under discipline if they had been completely honest with their leadership about why they left a prior church. There are far, far, far more people I have met quietly fleeing authoritarian leadership than members trying to escape consequences of their own sin.
Well stated post…
Funny how quickly “usurping of authority” come up with this guy..
Yup, really apply the words of Christ “ the first will be last and the last will be first”….
> I want to know what would cause him to do such a thing in the first place.
I think a fundamental problem with the “I have authority from God” thing is that it becomes very easy to lose sight of the distinction between one’s own will and ‘the will of God.’
I suspect that part of the “no limit on severity of punishment for objectively minor infractions” has to do with the idea that “if you defy us, you are defying God, and that’s really serious stuff.”
I like the posture of the traditional Reformed, who won’t call something “the will of God” unless it is explicitly commanded in Scripture, and who, I think, tend to not “pull rank” or assert authority except in narrow matters within their expertise, such as doctrine or documented matters of church order.
And, for Dee and Max,
while my Baptist pastor had always been moderately Calvinist in his theology, it was the sudden drive, on returning from sabbatical, to give our boring, ordinary church a Reformed makeover that was the biggest indication things were amiss. He manipulated and controlled the elders to help him shoot down objections to his plans, and then, when most of the core of the church had left, those elders left without ever publicly holding him accountable. For the last year the only other elder is the pastor of another Baptist church that also recently got ‘Reformed.
So I wouldn’t call it a Calvinista takeover. Maybe a ‘London 1689-ista’ takeover?
Face it, these guys love dictatorships.
When they are in charge.
The makeover takeover.
Ruth Ben-Ghiat, NYU, researches, writes, and speaks about the playbook for this.
https://ruthbenghiat.com
Tonight she was interviewed live with @gregolear, @LincolnsBible, and @RoArquette.
There’s a playbook. Even church folk are being played. Autocracy & authoritarianism, “in the name of” [their] god.
Church discipline, church covenants. Doesn’t stop the church predators from using church for their hunting ground.
Covenants & discipline are new in our neck of the woods. Church is increasingly less voluntary and more dangerous for the average law-abiding church goers.
So the local church leaders meet and decide which church goers are high maintenance or deserving of discipline? Hmmmm… how about the church goers meet and confer regarding the power, vice, and greed among leaders? Compare notes.
On twitter, Dee had a link to the Trinity Foundation that tracks greed (private planes & mansions) among clergy. Thanks, Dee.
One has to ask why TGC should provide “winsome support” to set up a Baptist church that is located only five miles along a very straight road from Calvary International Baptist Church whose pastor is Martin Chappell, a former IMB missionary, Elizabeth City, NC?
The most recent figures available (2018) for exploitation in East Asia from UNODC show that 72% are women and girls, 15% boys and 13% men. Of those victims detected, 46% are indigenous to the country they’re found in.
“When you are behaving as if you loved someone you will presently come to love him.” ~C.S.Lewis
I think this is just as likely to be untrue as true, in any given situation. This is not to say one shouldn’t do good to others, within one’s scope, regardless of specific feelings at the time, but “behaving is if” is another way of saying “acting,” and “acting” is the literal meaning of “hypocrisy.”
Two big problems with how they misuse Matt 18:
1) the passage is about reconciliation, not discipline.
2) they fail to take into account how Jesus treated Gentiles and tax collectors with love and compassion.
Cynthia W.,
‘We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.’
Kurt Vonnegut
I think this (and Lewis’s statement) are two of the truest statements uttered by mankind. We are what we do. The gist of Lewis’s statement is ‘behaving’ (action). Behaving/acting in a way to show love, even if you do not feel said love at the moment of action, is far preferable to honestly denying love. I don’t think it’s hyprocrisy; it’s modeling proper action, even if your mental/emotional state isn’t yet there.
“Jesus came to present a new form of leadership. He was the suffering and loving servant who ran after one stray sheep.” (Dee)
This is still the authentic church model for pastors. We’ve not go so puffed up and over Jesus in the 21st century that church leaders don’t need to follow it. Any other leadership style (e.g., authoritarian overlords) is simply not of God. Perhaps that’s why the New Calvinists don’t talk about Jesus much; they don’t want Him on their mind when they manipulate, intimidate and dominate the pew.
Sadly, I’m becoming more and more circumspect in what I write and say in Christian circles. It is a subtle form of persecution for many believers. Marco had it right when he said people are “…quietly fleeing authoritarian leadership than members trying to escape consequences of their own sin.” I also see increasing numbers of evangelical women being edged out by training being offered to men who couldn’t complete seminary (mostly for financial reasons) and still want to plant churches. There are no women being trained in these paraseminary groups.
“I think Chris has lived an insulated life if he believes these examples are mere blips in the history of glorious church discipline.” (Dee)
9Marks indoctrination blinds young reformers to empathy. We’ve seen it time and again where the NeoCals appear to have little ability to understand and share the feelings of another. They have no problem wielding a strong arm of discipline to those who question their teachings and authority, coldly controlling others and demanding submission to every jot and tittle of NeoCal law. “Respect my authorita” is a dangerous church environment to be in … it’s the stuff that cults are made of … New Calvinism ‘is’ a cult. The new reformers think they are restoring New Testament orthodoxy to the church, but instead have brought back the office of Pharisee not pastor.
“he believes that people want to “usurp authority.”” (Dee)
Good Lord! The Church of the Living God better wake up and start usurping some of the authority that has been thrown at it! The enemy has moved in to set up camp.
Authority? Very little of the American church appears to be under the authority and influence of Jesus. Remember Him?
The young reformers will bow a knee to Dever, but not to Jesus.
If you belong to a NeoCal “LifeGroup” which meets weekly for “Bible” study, beware! Many of them are simply ways for the pastor to keep tabs on potential dissenters, who have questions about belief and practice of the church in a more comfortable small group setting. Folks in the pew just want answers, but may end up being hauled into pastor’s office for discipline. The small group leaders have aspirations to become church elders, to be a part of “the inner ring”, so they do their duty squealing on members who start to question.
“I think Chris has lived an insulated life if he believes these examples are mere blips in the history of glorious church discipline.” (Dee)
If you believe a lie, it’s true.
Thank you for this comment. It spelled out the issue clearly. I have a rule. Once one decides to leave, never, ever go into a meeting with leaders. Just get out, quickly. I had to do that myself.
Many in this crowd ignore that. They follow a different Jesus.
So, can we tell the story of this church? Think about it.
Muff Potter,
Where the first shall always be first.
Ava Aaronson,
I wish I had heard that. Grateful to all who are part of the battle for loving and humble servants in the church.
Good comment.
One merely has to take a look at Mark Dever to understand that empathy is not a Tier 1 priority for him.
No, definitely not an essential doctrine of New Calvinism! Too much arrogance in that crowd to care much about others. A true preacher of the Gospel is equipped with empathy … it comes with the territory.
The NeoCal practice of emerging only on Sunday to preach a borrowed sermon, then disappear behind the curtain only to appear at coffee shops through the week with the dudebros, should give pewsitters pause to rethink why they are attending their churches. The new reformers won’t visit the flock to get to know them, won’t visit them in hospitals, won’t pray with them in nursing homes, won’t preach their funerals. All of these pastoral duties are delegated to the elders, if they do it at all. Yep, empathy is not in their toolkit.
“When Jesus saw the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were dispirited and distressed, like sheep without a shepherd.” (Matthew 9:36)
Off topic, but a prayer request to this “Sunday School and E Church” that is TWW.
Our area is being hit with drought. Some less than others, some of us are in severe drought. Crops are dying, and even the city or public water wells are stressed is my understanding. So far we are able to maintain our garden, which we rely on, but I am sure our cistern is getting low, and if water restrictions hit us we could lose our food crop this year.
I would not presume to tell the Almighty how to run the water cycle, but do ask prayers that if it would be as beneficial as I think it would, help many, and harm no one else, could we please have some rain? We are told not likely until August, very little expected then, and maybe not until October. And this is a normally wet climate, so trees, shrubs, plants, crops, and wild animals as well as people are suffering. Also having record setting heat most days. Doesn’t just affect us, but is likely to run food prices up for everyone. And cause shortages.
I had the misfortune of joining an SBC church in another state years ago. When I joined it was traditional in music, in doctrine, and in Bible Study. They did have a new pastor. A few weeks after I joined they suddenly had “Life Groups” replacing SS, a complete revamp of the music, went full on Calvinism of the John Mac kind, announced that the pastor and deacons had decided to go to elder led, appointed themselves elders, and had written a new church covenant. There was a meeting where this would be “approved” and the church name changed. That meeting was deliberately set, openly, to make it very hard for most members to attend. A handful of deacons, a few college kids, and “a quorum was had by declaration.” We were given about a month as I recall to sign the new covenant or our membership would be rescinded. I didn’t wait that long to resign. I did it nicely, in writing, citing only that it no longer fit my family or my beliefs and rather than cause dissension, please take me off the roll. Which they did. Promptly. So off the roll some church members who were close friends would deny they ever met me if we saw each other at Walmart. So far off the roll that over a decade later, in a state several states away, we were frozen out of our membership request at a different SBC church. Only later did we learn that one was “stealth Calvinist” and 9Marks.
I am so glad they rejected us! Never would have walked that aisle had we known, never plan to walk an SBC church aisle again, ever.
“Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally! The strongest is always right! The winner is never asked if he has won fairly, only that He Has Won!”
— Adolf Hitler, cult leader who indoctrinated a generation of young German reformers
linda,
For to say: the first church referenced turned out to be a 9Marks church.
Just like that quote from Seinfeld:
“Remember… It’s not a lie if YOU believe it!”
Believing your own lies is characteristic of a Pathological Liar; that’s why they can beat a lie-detector test. It’s not a lie, it’s Alternate Fact, Alternative Truth. Keep listening to your own PR long enough and it’ll happen, just as it did to Rush Limbaugh, Elron Hubbard, Anton LaVey, and Adolf Hitler.
“What is the cost of lies?”
— opening monologue, Chernobyl (HBO Miniseries)
And WE’re the ones who get to Hold the Whip!
linda,
You have just described modus operandi of the stealth takeover of SBC by New Calvinists. They all use the same playbook.
Empathy is an enticing sin, you know.
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-enticing-sin-of-empathy
Hah! I’d probably go into the meeting just to tell them to go eff’ themselves.
So many opportunities to hear Ruth Ben-Ghiat on YouTube… the Eisenhower Institute, the Kellogg institute, the Pell Forum, major networks, etc.
Her research of the Strongman (published in her book) covers the last 100 years of world leader makeover takeovers, parallel to what appears here at TWW about the church.
She emphasizes the playbook the autocratic strongmen follow, in their stealth makeover takeovers. Her research uncovered their pattern.
Example: in this Seattle Town Hall interview, Ben-Ghiat explains the importance of virality to these men, as in Driscoll et al. Remarkable research. Ben-ghiat’s work is brilliant. We are warned.
https://youtu.be/AC6or7WUlZs
Lets just speak plainly. Chris is a jerk. Period. Entitled to lord his authority over us. Malignant narcissist to a tee.
Muff Potter,
Funny you would say that… just today in a long trip in the car I told my wife I wish I could meet with the “Campus Ministry leaders” from decades ago that put pressure on us faculty to do more “for the cause of christ” … these same leaders push people like, and SPECIFICALLY good old Ravi…. I had misgivings back then and now I know why… I would very much like to confront these “campus ministers”..
Fir many years I have harbored inside a voice telling me that I was a bad Christain for not “buying in” to the whole “ministry package”..
Through TWW, and other things, I now realize that my “unease” was based on righteous reasons… so much of this “evangelism” that was push on us was based on “whitewashed tombs”..
dee,
You know, I really think that “hits the nail on the head” with so much of what is discussed on TWW….
I do not think that most of “American Christianity” follows the Jesus of the Gospels…
Now, do I? Heck no…. I wish I did…. (i think)…
But if one REALLY reads what Christ says, and how JC said we should strive to behave, TWW would not exist….
The real irony is that some many of clowns we read about think they are….. sigh..
In listening to another Higher Ed. academe today, Dr. Ruth Ben-Ghiat from NYU, I believe when she speaks of Strongmen manipulating democracies into autocracies in our last 100 years, we can substitute church leader Strongmen manipulating the priesthood of all believers in their churches into autocracies. Also in our times or rather recent history.
She was speaking via livestream at the Museum of Jewish Heritage, but I watched the recording on youtube.
Churches with strong fellowships of the priesthood of all believers somehow end up as authoritarian autocracies under a charismatic strongman leader. Perhaps it is the playbook she reveals in her book, “Strongmen”. Her research concerns national leaders, but the parallels are obvious.
Sigh…the lead pastor at my church has been recently making vague comments about people who need to be “disciplined.” Most of them don’t even attend the church anymore (one of them is a good friend of mine, currently making poor decisions in her life). I haven’t quite figured it out, or if it’s a harbinger to actual discipline cases to come. We are not 9Marks, unless there is a move going in that direction. We’ve always had elders, long before 9Marks came about. He did attend Masters, but seemed balanced since he came eight years ago. But, I’m a bit suspicious and praying much!
I do believe in church discipline, properly applied (sexual sin, stealing money from the offering come to mind). But I think trumpeting others’ sins from the pulpit, even if they are expressed “anonymously” (except everyone knows who he is talking about) is slander. I don’t know if those folks can sue him, but I might if I were no longer attending. It’s three sermons each Sunday morning to about 500 people, and it wouldn’t make me happy if I were the morning sermon entree.
We had a similarly weird Calvinist takeover from the inside. The church was generic baptist. The senior pastor retired and the youth pastor he’d groomed for the position (who’d been at the church well over a decade at this point) was eventually hired as his replacement.
Two months later, he started quoting Dever from the pulpit and preached on “this thing you’ve probably not heard a lot of, covenant membership.” Four months after that, fired the worship pastor and reorganized pastoral staff (literally the week after the congregation approved the annual budget) and announced that the church was “heading in a new direction” and pursuing “the true Gospel” (aka Calvinism of the Calvinista type). And announced they were disciplining/kicking-out someone who had already left the church. Within the next few months, he was caught plagiarizing and lying.
The elders. Did. Nothing.
The same elders who’d bragged about being all about accountability, “not like those other churches out there.”
Important distinction.
We sat through a “disciplining from the pulpit” that was done anonymously, regarding someone who had (allegedly) abandoned his wife. I didn’t have a clue who they were talking about.
It was all very weird and uncomfortable, and I didn’t understand the point. If I were the wife who had been abandoned, I would have been mortified. If I’d been the husband doing the abandoning, I would have been furious and it would have totally closed off any further opportunities for communication.
It just felt like leadership was taking the opportunity to publicly show how “Biblical” they were all being in handling the matter.
linda,
Praying for the weather in your area, Linda.
Wild Honey,
Thanks for sharing.
So my question is, why is there a need for another Baptist church in Bangkok? I am sure there were some before that church moved in. It just strikes me as weird.
linda, I prayed for the weather in your area. I live in the Western US and it’s been SO DRY here. I mean, it’s supposed to be dry most of the time in AZ, but we haven’t yet had one good monsoon storm yet. I’m hoping this summer isn’t a bust like the summer of 2020 was.
I believed authoritarian church discipline could never be used against me. Then I started dating someone who was a different denomination than I was. When we got engaged, we decided to attend his church together. I was brought into a meeting with the elders under false pretenses so that the elders could tell me that they thought this was a bad idea. When I learned this was the topic of the meeting, I said I would prefer to have this meeting at a time when he could be present. The elders said they were my pastors, not my fiance’s. I was in the meeting for hours. I never went back to that church. I am now in my husband’s church.
I realize upon re-reading the comment that is unclear that the elders were from my old church, not my husband’s church.
So they didn’t have the courage to bounce him out on his a$$ huh?
I am so glad to be back in a small Lutheran church rather than some place that is run by a mini-dictator.
That’s the beauty of Lutheranism, or any mainline denomination for that matter that has a strong central government.
They don’t allow cowboys and cavemen to run roughshod over the little people.
What a picture. Sums it up.
Macho male virality is one of the tools-to-rule of authoritarian autocratic strongmen, documents NYU’s Dr. Ruth Ben-Ghiat in her research.
Lowlandseer,
Thank you, LLS. I like a lot of what the IBC is doing around the world. [And full disclosure, a little over 14 years ago I was briefly in discussion with IBC Duesseldorf to serve as pastor there.] The way I see it, while the IBC is solid, in the eyes of 9M, et al, they’re not solid enough because they aren’t completely Leemanized
As you know, most of these churches primarily focus on the expat community, or the greater English-speaking community, within the city/ country where they are located. I’m all in favor of multiple churches and denominations existing in the same location, especially in an international city such as Bangkok, but I dislike those that seek “market dominance”, which is what I believe 9M affiliations are after.
Dee, I don’t think it would be healthy for me to publicly share the full details of the story at this time. The pastor was somewhat of a friend of mine until he went off the rails. His wife was quite close to my wife, and my wife’s sudden death was one of multiple profound traumas I believe propelled him into crisis. It seems he chose to double down into narcissism rather than sticking with the hard work of therapy and self reflection.
Plus, this is the story of a church with no building that went from about 120 attendance to somewhat less, and a pastor that burned bridges with most of his other fellow pastors when they started hearing the survivor stories. If he tried to rat out anyone under discipline, no church worth joining would listen. So while it infuriates us the way our departure was subsequently described (according to four different sources), half the room didn’t completely buy it and has since left, and the ones that remain have their identities pinned to their newly “faithful” way of doing church.
But to bring it back: Just like Linda described, they threw out the old membership covenant after we left and made all remaining members attend new classes and sign a new one. The very same document that had me shaking in fear, trying to figure out how to get out of that place with my integrity and sanity intact, was crumbled up and tossed in the pastor’s waste bin once it had been used to bludgeon all the dissenters.
i.e. Unequally Yoked with some HEATHEN(TM).
(During my Christian Dating Service disasters in the late Eighties, I read in the “What I’m like” and “What I’m looking for” of what was available to be Equally Yoked to – and wanted no part of it. No companionship possible with walking Jack Chick tracts.)
Their Ideology is not Pure Enough, Comrades.
(Guess who has the only Truly Pure Ideology?)
The first time I encountered the word “Hypermasculinity” was in a reprint of a 1943 OSS psych profile of one A.Hitler.
From context, the definition was Always Having to Be On Top, Penetrating and Colonizing and Conquering and Planting everyone and everything. Crushing any obstacle with violence. As the subject of that psych profile put it, “The Strongest is Always Right!” (And guess who has to be the Strongest?)
I can’t remember the source (something I read 20-30 years ago), but another definition of this kind of manhood was “Shooting Guns, Picking Fights, and Getting Laid (all as often as possible).”
Why is there a need for another Mega in the rich suburbs of Dallas?
And the potential Christian base in Thai-Buddhist Bangkok has to be much smaller than in Dallas.
That Austrian cult leader with the funny little mustache had rants on-record that any sort of Empathy or Pity must be stamped out as Sickness and Weakness.
Jonathan Edwards said the saved in heaven will have no pity for their unsaved children – they will greatly rejoice watching their kids roast in the eternal BBQ. Here is what he wrote to the unsaved with respect to their saved parents:
Cuz’ that’s where the dinero is.
The poor and the marginalized cannot support a pastor who wants a cushy life-style.
What a sick and twisted religion.
Wild Honey,
“It just felt like leadership was taking the opportunity to publicly show how “Biblical” they were all being in handling the matter.”
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gawwwwwwwwd….. i want to throw up all over ‘biblical’.
license to be smug
license to be an arrogant
license to have doublestandards and not be bothered by it
license to be a jerka@@d|ck
license to control others for sport
license to control others for one’s own job security
license to consolidate power
license for passive aggression
license for brazen cruelty
license to harm & destroy people
license for one-upmanship
license to nurture a sick need for self-flagellation in oneself
license to knowingly nurture a sick need for self-flagellation in others
…license for narcissism
.
.
oblivious that ‘biblical’ is utterly meaningless.
if all competing and contradictory propositions are declared biblical, the word has ceased to mean anything at all.
except “i’m right you’re wrong and i haven’t thought deeply about any of it because i didn’t know i needed to or i don’t know how.”
“…attempting to “usurp” the authority of church leaders.”
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i was at a restaurant with a group from church, including the pastor and his wife.
we were all then heading to another event with a specific starting time.
i was keeping track of time…
i said to the group, “Well, why don’t we wrap it up and get going.”
a moment of shock seemed to hang in the air and the pastor looked like he had just been punched.
i imagine i usurped his authority.
R.C. Sproul taught that moderate (4-point) Calvinism doesn’t really exist. He put it this way: “There is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic.”
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/sproul-on-four-point-calvinism/
Linda, I prayed for you just now. It’s been too hot, too dry, too long in much of the U.S. this year. May God send you the rain and cooler weather that you need.
I’ll go out on a limb and guess you don’t wear a “Jonathan Edwards is my Homeboy” t-shirt. I don’t think enough of his followers know what he really wrote.
The actual name for this is “The Abominable Fancy”.
Think what type of person would actually ENJOY that for all eternity.
And the definition of “Saved and Sanctified” that implies.
Perhaps Sproul is wrong.
Ugh. Stupid auto fill. That’s me.
On “Usurping authority”, the book “Loyalty and disloyalty” by Dag Heward-Mills is in the reading list for discipleship training.
This book will make your hair stand up. It is a book to groom you to surrender to pastoral authority.
As far as Jonathan Edwards goes, I actually prefer this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScfUfsUlGro
lyrics are kind of appropriate 😉
Thanks to all praying. So far no rain still, none in the long range forecast, but we actually had a light dew this morning and the heat is less. Heat due back tomorrow, but that dew did help a tiny bit. Still asking Him to bless us with some rain if He sees it best.
As to dumb theology: once had a preacher of the Wesleyan persuasion try to convince us that if we were saved and in heaven, we would look over the edge and see all our lost loved ones, lost friends, and lost strangers that we could have led to Christ and did not as they writhed eternally in agony.
Ok. Well. That would not be heaven, and it would take a sick sadistic God to invent that system.
Got to run. Time to wash and store the eggs for winter. DH went to gather and we are on the watch for some feral dogs that almost took us down yesterday. Stressed animals in the wild are no fun, and we are no match for a wild Rotty and a wild large spaniel who see us as food.
I suspect that Sproul was wrong about a lot of things.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Bangkok has a population around 12 million, with hundreds of thousands of expats, including Americans, Australians, and other English-speakers. Those residents are probably sufficiently concentrated to allow for quite a few good-sized (hundreds of congregants) Baptist churches.
Muff Potter,
Well, when at least two of the elders have spouses who are employed by the church, there is less incentive to do something.
Good night! Are they running some sort of stealth “vetting” service for each other? On a national basis? I would not put this above 9Ms.
And working expats have plenty of disposable $$$$$$, which will attract the neoclassical like nothing else.
License to commit sex crimes, according to a SBC pastor in Baytown, Texas arrested by LE for child porn & solitation of minors.
Church discipline anyone? Or is it “rules for thee that never apply to me”?
A great deal of money, I expect, compared to the average in the Thai population.
Bangkok is my neck of the woods. I have served in Southeast Asia for the past 30 years including quite a bit of time in Thailand. my take of this church plant after reading their Facebook page is this is just the same old same old where a group of people goes into a place they perceive to be wealthy and easy to have quick success at church planting. What tells me this? The Facebook page states it will be an English-speaking church. Translation, they are targeting the richest of the rich, upper middle class young professionals who speak English. That subgroup of Thai are willing to adopt foreign customs including heavy-handed church discipline. And by the way, they happen to have a lot of money. More than the average Thai working class person who is struggling to make it by right now post Covid.
The average Thai citizen does not speak English and does not have a willingness to easily let go of their traditions and cultural practices. Anyone who has spent more than two years in Thailand knows there is no quick easy way to plant churches there. The only people who see quick success are those missionaries (particularly from South Korea but others too) who buy up existing Christians by building new buildings and transferring members over to them. Sadly this happens all the time.
As with other Calvaniatas who focus on doctrine, church discipline and preaching, this new church plant in Bangkok talks about how exciting it will be to preach the word and how this is going to make disciples. Uh huh. Sure. By contrast Jesus was very clear that being a disciple means obeying him and putting his words practice, not hearing and agreeing with the words he spoke.
The Bangkok baptist church Facebook page also arrogantly states they are going to Help churches all over Southeast Asia be healthy. Ha ha ha ha ha. The hubris of this is beyond words.
This group will launch, they’ll get members but they aren’t going to even dent in the smallest way the city of angels (Which is what the name of Bangkok actually means). Given their authoritarian structure, and their hyper Calvinism this is actually good news. Others I know who are working in Bangkok to plant simple reproducing house churches which are led by lay leaders are going to have a far bigger impact. That too is good news for the Big Mango as it’s often called.
I’m halfway through John Sanders’ “Embracing Prodigals”. Sanders does a great job explaining the difference between “Authoritative” and “Nurturant” moral frameworks. This lens helps explain the type of authoritarian control we see in some churches; the leadership literally sees God as an authoritarian who is controlling them, so they work their theology out on their congregations. This type of control (covenants, discipline, etc…) is antithetical to God’s character. He is not about external control but inner transformation. He is not permissive; he has high expectations. But he loves us into transformation rather than control us into external change.
Typically, one wold get a housing allowance in addition to ones income. Much of it is US income tax free. Both Todd W. and I worked in the UAE and could tell you some stories.
Was it Woodward and Bernstein’s “source” that said “follow the money?” That is exactly what the NeoCals are doing.
Fisher,
Thank you so much for your informative comment. I was suspicious that they were targeting a wealthy group of people in Bangkok. I am getting tired of the nonsense spouted by the 9Marx people. They like to appear so very “godly” when they are actually rich people, not the people of Bangkok. Wow.
Good words!
Stick this quote on your refrigerator folks! Hand it to your authoritarian pastor next Sunday!
You have just described the first century New Testament church.
Planting churches to attract the wealthy is not a model you will find in the New Testament.
Judas Maccabeus. In a word, yes. They pass along word. They check on visitors with their network connections, and from what I understand they get rather intrusive with your browsing history and/or internet presence as well as social media. On the one hand, that can protect the church from predators. On the other hand, if I leave a church due to theological differences I really do not want that pastor standing between me and another church.
Not. his. business.
The only authority a preacher has over me is what I give him.
Fisher,
I might write a post based on your comment. Todd and I had a good talk today and feel like your thoughts are worth highlighting. Thank you.
Wish I had said this!
Exactly. If you let someone’s weakness control your strength, they own you. Never submit to illegitimate authority … preachers are supposed to be servants, not overlords.
OK, I realize that I hail from an ancient civilization (the 20th-century USA), but it would astound me if my current church checked on people’s social media before admitting them as members.
Here’s how it typically goes. A newcomer shows up. Pastors and probably some members realize they have not met before. People introduce themselves, as one does. The newcomer is invited to coffee hour, where people stand around drinking coffee and getting to know each other. There’s no pressure, but if the person continues to show up, they will eventually be invited to attend new member classes, and to join if they so choose. The classes are optional, there’s no contract, there’s just a mailing list and a record of membership. That record will include dates of joining and major events, like one’s wedding, baptisms of children, and one’s funeral.
I am hoping that others will recognize the beauty of this simple procedure, because it does not need to be enhanced.
Part of the authoritarian autocracy strongman playbook, according to Dr. Ruth Ben-ghiat.
Aligning with the elite is a tool-to-rule for a Strongman.
As you point out, Align with the Elite was not a tool-to-rule of Jesus. Not in His playbook.
nmgirl,
If more congregation members understood this, there would be far fewer opportunities for abusive pastors out there.
dee,
I think this story deserve a post
Fisher,
dee,
“This group will launch, they’ll get members but they aren’t going to even dent in the smallest way the city of angels (Which is what the name of Bangkok actually means).”
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I agree, dee – this would be a very good post.
i don’t doubt the statement above — i’d want to understand more of the perspective behind it.
Friend: be astounded. It happens. The more authoritarian groups are big on it. I am with you as to how it should be done, and will grant them leeway in today’s world if they do a slight amount of snooping. Good to know if a registered SO suddenly starts showing up, or newly released axe murderer, etc.
But when you discuss a topic online, say at TWW, have never discussed it at church or among the locals, and the pastor asks you about it on Sunday, what do you think happened? Especially when they begin letting drop bits of your personal history such as towns previously lived in, children’s occupations, etc that again you have not disclosed.
Ask me. I will tell them. But stop with the snooping already beyond that reasonable amount for safety.
Judas Maccabeus,
Interesting, thanks!
dee,
This is from an x-pat life vine there
“Asok
A fairly expensive area to stay in (but not the most), Asok is the centre-point of the Sukhumvit line and thus has quite a variation of accommodation. The prices tend to be somewhere between mid to high range, although there are a few budget options.
Here you’ll find everything from deluxe 5-star hotels to Boutique options, various types of guest houses, and a few hostels.
There is an extensive range of local cuisine from the cheap & cheerful to the downright over-priced, along with all manner of international restaurants, which is one of the reasons why many Bangkok locals will often head this way. You can also easily get to other parts of the city from here.
It’s a good spot to be if you are into shopping – there’s the aforementioned Terminal 21, and if you head in either direction from Asok you’ll find some fairly modern and impressive hi-so malls in Central Embassy (Chitlom) and Emporium and Emquartier (Phrom Pong)l
Lowlandseer,
“Life-vine = living
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Quite a bit of sadistic & nihilistic joy in this fellow, isn’t there? How despicable to revel in seeing children falling into the pits of hell.
Fortunately I believe evil works that way, and that showing love and empathy and helping neighbors out with no regard for which church they attend is far more likely to see an afterlife filled with joy.
Watching people descend into hell isn’t on my list of heavenly delights. This guy is one very sick puppy if you ask me, which of course no one did.
Yes. Oddly, he is the “homeboy” of New-Calvinists, complete with t-shirts and mugs. I suspect most of them have not read enough of his writings to know what they signed up for.
Or they have and KNOW they will be the ones Praising God from their angel-catered Superbowl suites watching all of us burn in Hell. The Ultimate Spectator Sport.
And it does not take much to connect this with “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Isn’t that a command to get started now?