Destiny Finn at pexels
Prayer of Anselm (1033-1109) link
Lord, because you have made me, I owe you the whole of my love;
because you have redeemed me, I owe you the whole of myself;
because you have promised so much, I owe you my whole being.
Moreover, I owe you as much more love than myself as you are greater than I,
for whom you gave yourself and to whom you promised yourself.
I pray you, Lord, make me taste by love what I taste by knowledge;
let me know by love what I know by understanding.
I owe you more than my whole self, but I have no more,
and by myself, I cannot render the whole of it to you.
Draw me to you, Lord, in the fullness of your love.
I am wholly yours by creation; make me all yours, too, in love.
Amen
Prayer of Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215) link
O Educator, be gracious to thy children, O Educator, Father, Guide of Israel,
Son and Father,both one, Lord. Give to us, who follow thy command, to fulfill the likeness of thy image,
and to see, according to our strength, the God who is both a good God and a Judge who is not harsh.
Do thou thyself bestow all things on us who dwell in thy peace, who have been placed in thy city,
who sail the sea of sin unruffled, that we may be made tranquil and supported by the Holy Spirit,
the unutterable Wisdom, by night and day, unto the perfect day, to sing eternal thanksgiving
to the one only Father and Son, Son and Father, Educator and Teacher with the Holy Spirit.
Amen
Prayer of 1 Clement (c. 96) link
We ask you, Master, be our helper and defender. Rescue those of our number in distress;
raise up the fallen; assist the needy; heal the sick; turn back those of your people who stray;
feed the hungry; release our captives; revive the weak; encourage those who lose heart.
Let all the nations realize that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your Child,
and that we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.
Amen
Benediction: Unknown author, early Scottish link
Deep peace of the running wave to you,
Deep peace of the flowing air to you,
Deep peace of the quiet earth to you,
Deep peace of the shining stars to you,
Deep peace of the Son of Peace to you, forever.
1
Why? Lutheranism affirms molinism?
Deep Peace was composed by the English composer John Rutter (born 1945). It’s not early Scottish. 🙂
Molinism… Ugh. Molinist are often even more cutthroat in defending Molinism than Calvinists are in defending Calvinism. And Molinism seems to be theory for the sake of theory with little to no practical benefit for helping us follow Jesus. The best thing about Molinism has been what I’ve learned from discussions with Molinists: I need to be more kind and loving and not let any particular theory become my idol.
Lowlandseer,
Thank you. That’s what the website said.
Julia,
I think it is important to understand the thinking of various Christians. And William Lane Craig is a Christian and a deep thinker.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Actually, I prefer the Greek Orthodox way of thinking on this matter. Instead of trying to find a middle ground beween predetination and free will, because both seems to be discussed in Scripture, I believe in it being called a mystery. We try too hard to figure this all out but we are dealing with an ineffable God who is sometimes partially knowable but sometimes beyound our knowledge. We want to fit Him into our box and want everyone else to jump in with us. So, we have the Calvinistas implying that Aminianists are not Christian or just barely Christian. They fear mystery. So do many Christians. I feel comfortable in that realm.
The goal of this Echurch is to present all points of view that fit into the broad understanding of mere Christianity. Arminians are cool, so are Calvinists, Molinists, Lutherans, Catholics and the Orthodox.
I believe that those who have left the faith or those who are sitting on the sidelines are looking for a place of peace in which all viewpoints can be looked at and accepted as mere Christinaity. I am Lutheran. I stand with them in their view of the sacraments. I struggle with their stated view on the age of the earth but was told that it was not a factor in my becoming Lutheran. I also struggle that women cannot be pastors but am grateful that their Director of Christian Eductation (a woman) is held up as a leader in the church.
My goal here is not to make Lutherans but to introduce Christianity in all of its faces. I want people to come here knowing I’m not shoving Lutheranism down their throats. However, I will present a Lutheran perspective at times and am happy to discuss the Lutheran point of view if asked.
I hope this makes sense.
Mystery. Paradox:
“A situation, person, or thing that combines contradictory features or qualities.
‘the mingling of deciduous trees with elements of desert flora forms a fascinating ecological paradox’.”
“Predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image” (Romans 8:29)
“Chosen to bear fruit” (John 15:16)
“Elected for service” (New Testament)
Predestined to hell? Chosen for damnation? Elected to perish? NO!!
Max,
Great comment!
Max,
Predestined, elected, chosen, … by our Creator…
The “chosen”, created with free will in the image of the Creator, may choose otherwise. It happens.
The paradox. Predestined and free to choose.
Kinda like parenting. In the end, as parents we hope we do right by our kids but finally they choose their destinies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism
Scroll down to “Biblical texts for Molinism” for their answer to your selection of texts.
IOW, why we read the entire Bible unselectively.
People select texts to prove their points.
(Just like men are selective about history to support their cherished myths that may apply to their experience but not others, as in so-called “great” denoms. A person can have their own personal cherished experiences within a church within a denom. For the girl slain by the church predators at that time, hidden, not so much. Elevate the church or denom? Not so fast. IMHO, it’s a tonedeaf POV. No one is denying there have been great experiences in churches, for some. But to elevate the church when violations were happening to girls in secret?)
IMHO, I look at predestined as what God meant to be, but not predetermined since each person has free will. Therein lies the paradox, the mystery.
The most difficult part of this paradox is when a friend or acquaintance has an adult child who takes their own life. That, to me, is the ultimate reality to face as a parent. It seems or feels like failure.
Yet God watches His created “children” go off the rails in spades from the beginning of creation. Can’t imagine how that feels.
Thank you. Same here. And you uniquely provide an open mic, within guidelines of respectability, which makes TWW a treasured experience. God bless you x 100fold.
In your mind, you hoped the best for your children … you set an example before them of faithfulness … you showed them the way. In so doing, you “predestined” your children to “choose” Christ, to be numbered among the “elect” of God. But, their eternal destiny was their choice … to follow the course Mom set before them, to choose the path she had taken in life or take another journey … in the end, they exercised their free will to choose life or death.
Exactly.
To be clear, this is not our personal experience. So what do we know!?! However, we have friends and acquaintances …
It is the ultimate test in facing the hard core reality of predestined with free will, but not predetermined. IMHO.
When the Cal boys & girls project predestined into the realm of predetermined … so I guess the Gospel is really not meant for everyone, that, to us, is a travesty.
Another opinion, on the topic of Scripture selection, the fact that pastors run churches is the height of heretical malpractice of our time. This church paradigm is rooted in a strange selection of texts translated into a common practice that seems to be accepted everywhere. It has resulted in church as a hunting ground for predators of the most vile type. Also seemingly everywhere.
We read the whole Bible, ourselves, while seeking God’s Holy Spirit’s guidance. It’s the only thing holding us on the straight and narrow while church after church goes whackadoodle.
Always appreciate when you share Scripture, Max. We’re reading the same book with the same Holy Spirit. Fellowship with no middleman, only Jesus.
Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To attempt to put the mind of God and His plan of salvation into a neat systematic theological box, is to stand in arrogance before the Creator. Those who don’t get this are whackadoodle dandies hung up on the teachings and traditions of man rather than revealed Truth from the whole of Scripture.
And only those who know that they know that they know reach the same conclusion. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Once you know it, you can’t unknow it because it’s in your knower.
I was young and now I’m old. My Christian journey has exposed me to various expressions of faith (whew – some of them were more expressed than others!). I’m convinced that the 80:20 rule applies to all of them … 20% get it and 80% don’t! I may not be right in everything I post on TWW, but after 70+ years as a believer, I’m righter than I used to be!
Any chance of Greg Boyd’s views here at e-church?
Muff Potter,
Is he the guy that debated Piper?
Ava Aaronson,
I’m not aware of any formal debate between Boyd and Piper, but there is a lot of back and forth between the two theologians, both in print and on youtube.
Muff Potter,
Boyd posted this on Rachel Held Evans’ blog (God rest her soul), snippets
https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-open-theist-greg-boyd-response:
“John Piper launched a public crusade to get me fired from Bethel University and to have my church kicked out of the Baptist General Conference”
“I strongly sensed that the Lord gave me an assignment I was to carry out for a year to help me through this period: Every single day, I was to pray for the well-being of those who were leading this crusade!”
“I’d encourage them [accusers] to make sure they understand the view before they dismiss it.”
“I’d also point out that the orthodox Church has always embraced a wide variety of views on a number of topics, … orthodoxy being, viz., the doctrines espoused by the Nicene and Apostle’s creed.”*
*On this last point, it seems that Dee and TWW eChurch would agree, according to what Dee shared today about her eChurch postings. (Works for us, BTW, although we here are far more fans of Dee & eChurch than of Boyd, & not fans of Piper. Just us. Just sayin’.)
Ava Aaronson,
Boyd however, does debate William Lane Craig on the doctrine of PSA (penal substitutionary atonement).
Here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=boyd+vs+william+lane+craig
He has a very good point here. Many churches today go the opposite direction by stating how they are different rather than how they are like other Christians. Instead of using just the Nicene Creed, which worked pretty well for a quite a number or centuries, they now publish not only statements of faith, but also statements of distinctives. It’s like one fast food restaurant explaining why their fries are so much better than the competition. I hate that. So I thought I would find a good solution in Eastern Orthodoxy, but I found it just has a different set of problems. Not sure where to turn at this point.
Yes, thank you. I did not mean in any way to suggest that Molinists are bad people or that Molinism is bad. It’s only that my experience dialoging with Molinists has been bad. I am grateful that you are including a broad spectrum of views. I find it very helpful.
As for William Lane Craig, I used to be a big fan of his. But in recent years I have been getting a bad vibe about him as he seems to grow more and more haughty about his superior theological and philosophical views. I am wondering if he is setting himself up for a fall. I tried to ask some questions on his website a few years ago but got the reply from the screeners that pretty much said my questions were ill-informed and I should do more research before asking him questions. His insistence on the centrality of penal substitutionary atonement also bothers me. I think lately he is most known for his Molinism.
After 70+ years of doing church in America, I returned to where I started … Jesus.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavily burdened by religious rituals that provide no peace, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me following Me as My disciple, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest, renewal, and blessed quiet for your souls. For My yoke is easy to bear and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)
It’s nice, though.
LOL. Comparing churches to fast food franchises. Seems apropos for right here right now. And butter a bun but call it a biscuit, folks love their fast food favs these days.
Yeah, there’s very little meat in the hamburger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzHjCm0KXUc
I also appreciate the variety being offered on echurch. This guy was a little ‘heady’ if you ask me, but what I really appreciated was the juxtaposition of his talk and the last song. Good job, Dee
A good point. The moment we get feeling pretty good about ourselves, we need to be prepared for a bit of a comeuppance.I believe in stressing a mere Christianity. It allows me to view myself as “just another Christian trying to make my way home.”
I would be interested in learning more about the problems. A number of evangelicals have switched to the Orthodox church and seem to be happy. A friend of mine who is a Lutheran pastor told me Luther was quite friendly with the Orthodox and that many of their doctrinal stances are those with which Lutherans can agree.
Due to my own wanderings, I’ve become aware of just how hard it is to find a church with which I can be at home. We were fortunate to find our church which is also near our home. If we had not found it, I think we would be in a bit of a quandry. I know lots of church in this area-most of which are SBC and I will never do that one again! I’m beginning to understand why folks have drifted into the RCC or the Orthodox churches. At least in those churches, you won’t get a sermon based on the pastor’s new thing like “Let’s have a prophecy mic” like Mahaney or listen to “Let’s have a real men’s retreat and we’ll bring guns and shoot some deer like real men.”
I want Scripture, a few songs, communion, confession, a share the peace time, the Nicene Creed, prayers for the community and the members, and a short but pithy sermon or homily. That’s it. Nothing startling.
As an old science fiction nerd, I have long been fond of the idea that predestination is only a bugaboo for humans; since God transcends time, there is no past or future for God. All is the eternal ‘now’ in which all possible outcomes are concurrent.
dee,
I completely endorse/agree with Dee’s comments…. As I have posted before, I have spent my life being a scientist/engineer, and while I continue to learn much about our physical world, the more I realize I, and mankind, do not “know things”, and some things we will never fully understand…. I.e. “Great mysteries”…. And I am OK with that. If one assume G$d made everything, then G$d, and his actions HAVE to be somewhat of a mystery to us, at a minimum.
. And I agree, the people that “have to have all the answers” are, at a minimum, supremely arrogant…. ..
I spent about a year with a local English speaking Orthodox church. I wanted to convert but could not close the gap on a number of issues. Around half of the members came from protestantism, and they are very knowledgeable and helpful
1) the politics among the bishops is nauseating
2) so much depends on the loca priest. This one is a convert from UMC and seems to emphasize the ascetic practices more than cradle Orthodox priests. In my conversations with him it became apparant that he is not very flexible about easing into things like fasting. But other orthodox priests are much more chill about it
3) the complexity is overwhelming. I love all the symbolism, but it’s like trying to determine where to start eating the elephant
4) I had quite a lot of dialogue with Brad Jersak (author of “A More Christlike God” and featured on many YouTube videos – his “gospel in chairs” could be good for e-church). He needed 10 years to convert to EO and he told me not to convert until I cannot not convert. He would probably be considered on the liberal side of orthodoxy. The local priest here had nothing good to say about Brad’s spiritual mentor
I still draw heavily from EO theology and am using the EO study Bible for my morning devotions. Who knows, maybe I will convert someday.
From the words of an old song:
“This world is not my home
I’m just a-passing through
My treasures are laid up
Somewhere beyond the blue
The angels beckon me
From heaven’s open door
And I can’t feel at home
In this world anymore”
Muff Potter,
Thanks for this video. I really appreciate eChurch here at TWW and the conversations. I found William Craig a bit difficult to listen to as he spoke alone in the service. And for the first 20 minutes of the video you linked to I had the same trouble listening to him, but as I hung on for a longer time it seemed to me that Craig and Boyd were listening to one another and giving more in depth clarification of their reasoning. I liked this and could listen better for the last half. I’ve read “Letters From a Skeptic” by Boyd and visited, many years ago, the church where he is a pastor. I found it refreshingly different than churches that I had attended where Piper was fondly referenced at times.
The bullet points of clarification that both Craig and Boyd gave were helpful for me to think about their reasoning and consider the risks of misunderstanding either view. Of course, the benefits of walking away from either view with a better understanding and trust in the goodness and love of God is suppose to be the purpose of both frameworks, I think.
In the recent past I’ve thought that I would really appreciate a book that was “philosophically coherent and Biblically consistent,” as Craig describes a possible future work. I think I’m more interested in “Inspired Imperfection,” as Boyd referenced a book of his. But, I’m most interested in the priesthood of all believers and I lean toward resting in mystery at some point when reflecting on some topics.
I hope a hunter from space makes trophies out of them.
And you will hear a lot more Bible reading. Right now I need the peacefulness and sanity of liturgical services.
I am probably being unfair to fast food franchises. They pay their taxes, adhere to equal opportunity laws, get regular independent health inspections, don’t require membership covenants, don’t discipline customers for arbitrary things, don’t have fog machines and 100 dB music, and in most cases you can see what is cooking in the background.
They put Predestination (i.e. Fate) above God and thus go into Socratic Atheism.
God is NOT God, Predestination/Fate is.
“EH, KISMET…”
…and Yes, this is a Paradox.
Anyone remember “WHERE’S THE BEEF?????”
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Absolutely. Three significant Scripture readings for each sermon- OT, Epistles, and Gospels. Something rarely heard in any Baptist or nondenominational churches that I attended.
Muff Potter,
You never fail to make me laugh.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Keep me posted on your thinking. I find this fascinating.
I listened to many hours of podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio from Antiochian (yes, that Antioch) Orthodox Christians in Franklin, TN. If I lived in Franklin I would almost certainly be Orthodox by now because tbey are more chill about the ascetic practices (it appears they are considered the liberal wing of Eastern Orthodoxy). It’s about a 90 min drive for me, which makes it possible if I tbought I could sustain the weekly commute. Maybe later.
Only us old people…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
It was a GREAT commercial~ try eating a double-quarter pounder from McD’s and when you are STILL hungry even after that, that old commercial makes SENSE
maybe our ‘portion sizes’ are out of control these days?
NOPE
not for the inflated prices we are paying even at McD’s
I remember my first 15 cent hamburger with 12 cent fries as a kid . . . . .
my ‘double quarter pounder deluxe’????? I bought 2 of them and the bill was over 18 dollars.
WHERE’S THE BEEF????? and when did McD’s become too expensive for retired folks?
indeed
Shooting semi-tame deer to pieces (pausing only to swap mags) like Pastor JMac of Chicago?
Max, both Christian Monist and me have seen the serious downside of this.
Utter indifference to anything in the physical world – “It’s All Gonna Burn” – and concentrating entirely on the Spiritual until like the Pneumatic Gnostics you cease to be human. Remember the Christian afterwlife was RESURRECTION into a New Cosmos, not floating around as Souls in Heaven like Shades in Hades.
In one of his favorite tag lines, Eighties talk-show host Rich Buhler put it this way:
“God lives in the real world.”
The danger of “Thiw world is not my home, I’m just passin’ thru” is it doesn’t. The Over-Spiritual do NOT live in the real world.
In Screwtape Letters, Screwtape advises Wormwood to keep his “patient” constantly living in the Future, NOT the Present. Tunnel-vision obsession on the Hereafter does the same thing – rejecting the Here-and-Now – but with a Christian coat of paint.
As another old science fiction nerd, I find this analogous to precognition, i.e. seeing the Future. The only way to handle that in fiction is similar to how Frank Herbert did in Dune. A precog vision does not see THE Future, it sees A Future – the Future most probable at the time of the precog vision. If there are two or more futures of similar probability, you can see either or maybe a mixture of both. Because the Future is not fixed and complete until it becomes the Past; it is still subject to change.
As the Fifties paranormal TV show One Step Beyond put it,
“You can’t change fate. But if you see it coming you can duck.”
Don’t forget the Psalms between the OT and Epistles, and the homily (sermon) must relate to one or more of the four.
I think this is based on Jewish practice; the one time I attended a Jewish Shabbat service, there were readings from ha-Tanakh corresponding to “OT and Epistles”, a reading of ha-Torah corresponding to the Gospel reading, and a “Commentary on Torah” that was a sermon/homily – the same arrangement as the Christian “Liturgy of the Word”, the first half of the Western-Rite Christian Liturgy (the second half is “Liturgy of the Eucharist”, i.e. Communion; I don’t know much about Eastern-Rite “Divine Liturgy” but I assume it follows the same basic structure).
Remember his herd of rare white deer that he let donors shoot?
You won’t find that here. I pray for the “physical world” everyday. I’m not so spiritually-minded that I’m not much earthly use, HUG. Ask those who know me. But, I’m always walking with an awareness that “if the earthly tent [my physical body] which is our house is torn down [through death], we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens” (2 Corinthians 5:1 AMP).
Or shooting photos of his elder board with a pellet pistol in his garage? Yeah, lots to remember about JMac.
I’m so old that I remember going to the movie theater when 35-cents would buy admission, a box of popcorn, and a soda!
Oh yeah! I also remember when someone challenged a leading fast food chain’s claim that the meat in their burgers was 100% beef. Their lawyer’s response was that the beef they put in their hamburgers was 100% beef. A slick defense that ended the case, even though beef was a small percentage of the burger composition … but it was true that the small amount of beef they put in the burger was 100% beef. It’s sorta like New Calvinism, mostly half-truth and mistruth, with a little dab of truth in it.
Remember the sermon illustration of a tiny dab of turd in a glass of milk?
And would shoot to pieces himself in fits of rage?
(I’m surprised he hadn’t sought a Class III full-auto license; as a Celebrity Megapastor, he certainly had the Influence/clout…)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
what kind of human being DOES something like this???
my guess is the person is very troubled mentally and emotionally
“It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is…”
always thought ‘zero’ was a real number,
with a real place on a continuum, somewhere between ‘greater than minus one’ and ‘less than the number one’
help me out here, you experts 🙂
These days of 13.6 oz pounds and 27.2 oz half-gallons?
All depends what Alternative Facts(TM) you and your attorneys can claim.
Piper would have gladly slaughtered Jews and Muslims in old Jerusalem too.
Muff Potter,
Saw this on a post on her blog by, God rest her soul, Rachel Held Evans in an interview she did with Greg Boyd. It’s a quote from Boyd.
What became of that Christian Family Feud, Boyd vs Piper, – dunno. Boyd just put it out there in the interview.
Ava Aaronson,
Held Evans truly was a gem of a woman.
Yes. But all that public Bible reading has to be rejected because, you know, it’s just an empty works-based tradition of man…
Yes, it is a real number. But it is also a special number because it does not act like all the others, and there are restrictions on how is can be used in equations. It is also a very much needed number.
Max, this hymn is very close to my heart. Thank you.
Max,
dee,
“I believe in it being called a mystery. We try too hard to figure this all out but we are dealing with an ineffable God who is sometimes partially knowable but sometimes beyound our knowledge.”
“Let the Mystery Be” was performed this past a Sunday at my church. It is an Iris Dement classic:
https://youtu.be/nlaoR5m4L80
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I hear you on this. I also listen to AFR, mostly podcasts though (my favourites are The Areopagus & The Lord of Spirits). I’m currently in a holding pattern in the Anglican Church while I think & pray more. I’m fortunate in having some Orthodox churches within 30/40 mins away, but am currently in relapse with ME/CFS so going to any church, including my usual one up the road is not possible right now.
jojo,
“Oh Lord, you know
I have no friend like you
If heaven’s not my home
Then Lord, what will I do?”
Because — “SCRIPTURE!”?
And Eastern-rite Christians.
“DEUS VULT!”
“Hey, Abdul, I just invented Zero!”
“What?”
“Nothing…”
— “Why Man Creates: The Edifice” (film short)
Many years ago our then Church of the Nazarene SS teacher explained predestination to us this way: long before any soul was created, God knew which souls would choose Him and which were not. So He uses providence to make sure any soul that would choose Him has the chance to do so. Those that do not get that chance are only those He knows would reject Him anyway by their own free will choice. Those that do come to repentance and faith are then predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Made sense to me then, does now, and I think I will stick with it.
Max,
jojo,
Respectfully, I have a different view, and so I have no desire for streets of gold and jewel encrusted vistas somewhere over the rainbow.
And like Dorothy Gale (clicking her ruby slippers), I found out that ‘heaven’ (for me) is right here in my own backyard.
The hummingbirds at the feeder, the lizards on my fence, the hawks riding the thermals, and the constellations wheeling their cycles…
Here’s the first line to an old hymn that works for me:
This is my Father’s world,
And to my listening ears
All nature sings, and round me rings
The music of the spheres.
This is my Father’s world:
I rest me in the thought
Of rocks and trees, of skies and seas;
His hand the wonders wrought.
Muff Potter,
This Earth is my home, and I like it just fine.
Indeed! The natural world is a touch of heaven for me as well. I spend as much time enjoying creation as possible … hikes, fishing, birdwatching, hunting fossils and Native American artifacts, time teaching my grandsons about wildlife (I spent a career as an environmental scientist). Heck, creation is the only thing that still has it right … and groaning for man to get back on track!
“The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own.” (Romans 8:19-23 Phillips)
And the wonderful thing about it all … I never bump into John Piper on hiking trails or fly-fishing!
This does it for me! I just hope we learn to care for the beauty God entrusted to us before we lose it.
Craig isn’t a theologian, but a philosopher of time, just like Huw Price (who won an argument with Stephen Hawking), Henri Bergson (who incidentally has nothing to do with Teilhard, Steiner or Darwin) and Alfred Whitehead.
Christians and agnostic alike, would benefit from much more thorough consideration of time. I always thought Molinism should be seen in terms of time and not theology, but then I do tend to boldly read fresh things in everywhere I want.
The reason Jesus died was so that He would ascend, from whence He distributed providential gifts whereby we shall trade wealth that shall survive whatever comes next.
The prophets saw substitutionary atonement (a shorthand motif long given to the world’s peoples as Wilhelm Schmidt recalled) but also saw power to care for orphans and widows Is 55, 58, 61, Prov 21: 10-31 (sorry Sarah Z. this isn’t “about women”), James, Parables, feedings of thousands, Gen 14 . . .
“This kind” (of entrenched wrong spirit, threatening to commit humanity to flames) will not come out but by continual supplicatings for all and the fast which is gut wrenching mercy.
According to Peter Heers and some of the Eastern, errors crept in between 130 AD and before Augustine, regarding initiatory sacraments, thereby unbalancing doctrines of all kinds. The Nicene Creed sidesteps all those however, as long as one teaches the full wealth of insights not taking away any of Jesus’ words out the mouths of babes: the Great and not Small Commission, regarding So Great Salvation.
linda,
We’ll be that providence if we trade well in the Ascension-given talents by our supplicatings and our gut wrenching mercy. Salt that lost its savour got trodden underfoot.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
A point is a metaphor for an approximation to the intersection of all possible “planes”. An allusion is a kind of plane. A metaphor is a kind of fractal.
Language (unless false) is intersectional; we are, each of us, intersectional differently; we are in the image of The Word.
Speech and like forms of thought penetrate time; memory is somewhat connected. Semiotics 1 and phenomenology 2 penetrate memory.
{ 1 the science of meanings in Nature, culture and language 2 the sense of experience, negated by William James }
Time was made for mankind.
Bad sorts who destroyed knowledge in our heads also include:
– dialetical materialists
– pharisaical sophists
(kinds of people who enjoy sabotaging the better work of Craig and of the evangelist John Lennox)
– The Black Death
– the dictator F Bacon
plus many more. Brentano’s translators are being found to have dumbed down his work.
The “First Things” are person, time and light and are overlaid (in sense) upon the matter of Gen ch 1 (a then renewed earth).
There is something rather than nothing, because we are on an existence wave (a more spiral than circular argument).
Hoping This Helps !!!
I agree. It is a fascinating topic with surprisingly little consensus. A tightly connected topic is the nature of space.
Ancient Christians wrote about the atonement in both penal and substitutionary terms, but in a very different way than penal substitution has been described for the last 500 years. From Calvin on it has been in terms of satisfying God’s wrath through violent punishment. The ancients believed Jesus suffered the penalty of death (not wrath or punishment) and by doing so defeated death for everyone.
CHRISTUS VICTOR.
Victory over Death.
This is where the tradition of The Harrowing of Hell came from; Christ descended into Hades/Sheol, broke its hold, and pulled the dead out with him.
In the beginning, THAT was one of THE big selling points of this new faith to people who only knew the Hellenistic afterlife, i.e. a Shade in Hades. For once you were in Hades’ realm, you could never leave. Once dead, always dead. Never to be anything else than a fading ghost. And this new faith promised a cure for death, a Resurrection to a new life in the unspecified future. Not just a Shade/Ghost, but alive again.
But that got lost over the centuries and replaced by Souls floating in Fluffy Cloud Heaven, not that much different than Shades in Hades.
And the purpose of salvation became getting out of jail for a select few.
With respect to the harrowing of hell, Chrysostom’s ancient homily is amazing. And it’s very short.
https://www.oca.org/fs/sermons/the-paschal-sermon
Again, and for the umpteenth time, I have no desire for fluffy cloud ‘heaven’.
I much prefer the Jewish version, in which the fleshly delights of this life are expanded and renewed in Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come).
This is the whole sequence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkowV1L8l-0
I remember seeing this in junior high, and it stuck in my mind.