“Did I offer peace today? Did I bring a smile to someone’s face? Did I say words of healing? Did I let go of my anger and resentment? Did I forgive? Did I love? These are the real questions. I must trust that the little bit of love that I sow now will bear many fruits, here in this world and the life to come.” Henri Nouwen
Help Wanted
TWW is seeking an experienced, professional person or persons to assist in the update, development, and data management of the TWW website. It is important to stress that this is a blog, which dates back to 2009, and has voluminous comments. Warning: This will not be an easy proposition. I am willing to pay the going rate for a qualified individual or company. Please send all inquiries to dee@thewartburgwatch.com.
A couple of years ago, I received a call from a pastor in the United Kingdom who said some well-known leaders in the Anglican Church had nude massage sessions with younger pastors and seminary students. Although he named names, I can’t reveal them since this pastor fears for his career in the UK. I can assure you that this type of massage was not just some “locker room” humor as my former Baptist church called such actions.
Grooming of teens in the American church
Many parents are thrilled when a youth leader or celebrity pays attention to their teen. Most parents used to look for role models for their teens within the supposedly “safe” church setting. If you had asked me if I would have wanted such a relationship for my kids back in the 90s and OOs, I would have been inclined to say, “It sounds lovely.” Around about 2005, Dee grew up and began to be aware of the number of pedophiles and molesters who had invaded the Protestant evangelical church.
Read the following post as a warning. It’s time we all got smart. The lives of children, teens, and UK Anglican seminary students are at risk.
Brad Waller and Tates Creek Presbyterian Church (TCPC)
I have commended this church in the past for how they dealt with this situation in 2018.
Addressing Our Past: A Letter from Robert Cunningham: Sunday, June 24, 2018
Brad Waller was a minister at Tates Creek Presbyterian Church (TCPC) from 1995 to 2006, where his primary responsibilities included directing the youth and college ministries. Since his departure, TCPC has grown and changed in many ways, and the vast majority of our congregation has never known or heard of Brad. But there are still some in our congregation, along with others in the Lexington community and beyond, who knew him as a beloved pastor and mentor.
After leaving TCPC 12 years ago, he served for a very brief time at Twin Oaks Presbyterian in St. Louis, and then moved to Savannah, GA, where he was an Assistant Pastor at Independent Presbyterian Church and then Senior Pastor at Grace Church of the Islands.
Earlier this year, a student at Savannah College of Arts and Design (SCAD) informed his campus minister of an experience he’d had with Brad that left him feeling very uncomfortable. This campus minister followed up with other SCAD students and discovered that they too had similar experiences. It was reported to the Savannah River Presbytery (in the Presbyterian Church, a “presbytery” is the governing body over local churches), and this began a process of investigation and discipline that culminated in a meeting of the Presbytery on April 17.
As you will see, Brad got sexually stimulated by rubbing the feet of young people.
At the presbytery meeting, Brad made the following confession that has since been made public record: “I, Brad Waller, confess to the sin of abuse of authority in my role as a pastor. I have been rubbing the feet of men and youth in my care. There was a sexual element to this, however, physically it never went past foot-rubbing.”
The Presbytery voted at the same meeting to immediately depose him from his office (remove his ordination) as a minister. The Presbytery’s statement reads:
“At the April Stated Meeting of Presbytery at Westminster Presbyterian Church, Martinez, on Tuesday April 17, the Savannah River Presbytery voted to depose Brad Waller from Gospel ministry, for the abuse of power against minors and young men under his care, for the purpose of auto-erotic stimulation derived from foot rubbing, to which he confessed before the court [presbytery].”
Brad was removed from ministry, and more stories of his predilections arose. You can read about the careful response of this church by reading the entire letter. They also reported this to the police.
GRACE was invited to do an investigation on Chris Rice, the well-known singer.
This is where the story of Brad Waller and Chris Rice intersect.
In a statement in 2020, the church said the singer’s friendship with Waller allowed Rice to develop close relationships with several students at Tates Creek. The Waller investigation led a former student to come forward with allegations against Rice, and the church launched another inquiry.
This church responded incredibly well in this situation, which should serve as an example to other churches of how to respond in a godly and caring fashion.
Here is a link to the GRACE report on Waller in 2019.
Here is a link to TCPC’s next thoughtful response.
Here is one recommendation by GRACE to note since it will come up again.
GRACE recommends that consideration also be given to guarding those of the college age/young adults from one-on-one situations with those in leadership when on TCPC property as well as when away from TCPC property. While these individuals are adults, they are still at a vulnerable age when it comes to being under the mentorship or leadership of older adults. This investigation revealed this population was also being taken advantage of because of the position of authority held over them. Some felt uncomfortable in reporting or doubted their instincts because of Brad Waller’s position of prominence. Mirroring the “One on One” contact policy for TCPC property similarly to that proposed for underage individuals may provide a safeguard for the college age/young adults and for the workers who meet with them. Policy for the college age individuals could exclude the requirement of parental consent or notification, but could reflect the practice of open doors or uncovered windows. Off property meetings could also be enhanced by requiring “two deep leadership” or the requirement of public meeting places.”TCPC
TCPC, Brad Waller, Chris Rice, and another GRACE investigation
Christianity Today posted Report Backs Abuse Allegations Against Chris Rice.
Three men reported that Christian musician Chris Rice took advantage of a youth ministry culture that normalized massages and sleepovers to groom them as teenagers more than 20 years ago.
Where did this happen? TCPC during the time that Brad Waller was there.
Rice first landed on the CCM scene with the Christmas song “Welcome to Our World” and was nominated for six Dove awards for his 1997 debut album Deep Enough to Dream. He was close friends with Brad Waller, a former Tates Creek pastor who was the subject of a 2018–2019 investigation by GRACE.
Here is a link to this GRACE report which was released on June 21, 2022.
Waller had a habit of massaging students’ feet and admitted there was a sexual element to his behavior. In a statement in 2020, the church said the singer’s friendship with Waller allowed Rice to develop close relationships with several students at Tates Creek. The Waller investigation led a former student to come forward with allegations against Rice, and the church launched another inquiry.
Folks, pay attention to Chris Rice’s alleged behavior. It will show you how these guys get to our children and teens.
Chris Rice was invited to help with retreats, functioning as a spiritual and worship leader. The teens deeply admired him. Most of us now recognize the power differential in this situation. It appears that Rice used this to his advantage.
Victim # 1:
The former student described how Rice—who was in his late 30s at the time—would have them give each other back massages. He said he and Rice shared a bed during church retreats and his solo visits to Rice’s home in Nashville. The teen disclosed to Rice about his struggles with porn. By the time the former student was 17 or 18, Rice also began massaging his thighs, touching his crotch, and putting his hand down the student’s boxer shorts on multiple occasions.
Victim #2
Another student stayed overnight for a week in Rice’s home after graduating high school, and the two both slept in a tent indoors. He said Rice asked to see his back muscles and would grab his thighs in a way that made him uncomfortable.
Victim #3
Rice sought him out for one-on-one conversations and time together. When Rice fell asleep lying on him on a bus ride, the student saw their interactions as a “bromance,” but now, in hindsight, he views the behaviors as grooming.
TCPC responds
Once again, Richard Cunningham, Current pastor of TCPC (He was not there during the Waller and Rice time), needed to make a statement. Reporting for the Roys Report, Josh Shepherd wrote GRACE Finds Sex Abuse Allegations Against Chris Rice’ Credible.’
In October 2020, when the allegations involving Rice surfaced, Cunningham commissioned the GRACE investigation and contacted Kentucky State Police.
The report states police aren’t investigating “due to the current preference of . . . Alan Doe and the expectation that the appropriate jurisdiction for further reporting and prosecution would be in Tennessee.”
Cunningham praised the alleged victims of grooming or abuse who participated in the GRACE investigation.
“Your courage to share has been the prophetic rebuke we needed to repent,” Cunningham wrote in his statement. “I do hope you will accept our apology for the failures I have confessed.”
GRACE had a number of recommendations.
The steps include conducting a policy audit of how “grooming behaviors” may have been facilitated; holding church contractors to the same safeguards as TCPC staff and volunteers; and offering “additional training … on effects of abuse” for all church staff.
GRACE also recommended that “any teaching” to youth about sexuality include “information on consent and the impact of age and power differentials.”
TCPC’s Pastor Cunningham released another statement.
Robert Cunningham, senior pastor of Tates Creek, released a 1,500-word statement, confessing the church’s “institutional” and “cultural” failures revealed by the report.
“We are ashamed that it took a public scandal for us to seriously revisit policies and procedures, but unfortunately that is the case,” Cunningham wrote. “We are deeply sorry and ask forgiveness, especially from the survivors who were hurt.”
GRACE said this about the church staff.
They have not attempted to cover sins,” GRACE wrote about the church. It also noted that no one on staff at the church knew about the allegations before fall 2020.
Some parting observations and advice.
- Chris Rice refused to speak to GRACE.
- Brad Waller refused to speak to GRACE (p.14)
- Chris Rice seems to be somewhat of a loner. He does not mention family, friends, etc. Claims that he is an introvert.
- Rice walked away from music in 2018 for a short while. Interesting timing.
- Massages/back rubs, etc., can be sexual. (See Ravi Zacharias’ life)
- Massages can be a tricky way to engage in sexual activity- plausible deniability
- Do not let teens go to sleepovers with any ministry “leader.”
- Do not let teens be alone in cars or vans with just one ministry leader. Always have others around.
- Molesters can infiltrate churches easier since people tend to be trusting. Become more suspicious.
- Read up on what grooming behavior is all about.
- Dee wishes someone would have given her this advice years ago.
- I think there may be more controversy surrounding Rice in the coming years- just a hunch.
Last…
First?
Dee, your comment about “wishes someone would have given her this advice years ago” hit home. I have a brother who’s a pastor, and he is always extremely careful to make sure he and his staff were never alone with a woman. The door was always open and he made sure someone could see (if not clearly hear) what was going on. Or, he met at the local fast food place with both men and women. He said it removed temptation, plus (hopefully) no one could set him up or accuse him of misconduct.
And how refreshing to see a church and pastor take responsibility for the misconduct. May God honor their sincere efforts.
And now for something completely different.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/josh-duggar-transferred-to-federal-facility/amp/
So J Duggar was transferred to a federal prison today. Anna writes on social media about her road trip to see her “bestie”. I am increasingly of the opinion that their children are not much safer around her than they were with Josh.
Can I be honest here?
The fetish antics of these guys is so ludicrous, it’s actually funny too (in a Jon Stewart sort of way).
I think that a lot of Christians seem oblivious to the possibility of sexual abuse of same gender people and of possible attractions. They assume that it’s okay for men to meet in private or women.
I have a male friend who experienced grooming by a church leader, so I’m glad that more men are speaking out about it.
Bible colleges in England typically produce finishers (who have had a variety of sponsorship) who go to work at a variety of both C of E and other denominations. Increasingly these are, on grounds of organisational image, choosing non conformism (especially of the trendy “independent reformed” kind) rather than C of E, although the spiritual foibles are nowadays identical.
Another thing is “singers”. I find “christian music” is hardly music, is attenuated sentimentality and no intellect. Is that how the “industry” likes to entrap these underdeveloped souls as its tools? Is “christianity” too used to absence of kindness?
Oh and bus rides. I expect that wasn’t the sort where you have to look out for your stop any minute. I wonder which was in the aisle seat? A mischievous youth in the aisle seat ought to make the “sleepy” elder suddenly fall over IMO. Headline in youth fellowship newsletter: “youth hazes youth elder”.
A girl younger than me – she was in the aisle seat near her friends – did this to me (and I wasn’t a “volunteer”). (She had been larking at a shrine with her peers, and at the midnight cafe where I learned to smoke Marlboros LOL.) I didn’t do a thing to her, since genuine unthreatening (not the fake kind as ploy) is less complicated for me LOL.
She and her friends wrote me an update afterwards (some crooks were targetting our larger party; in hindsight, some semi inadvertent remarks by me at one point may have put them off our group).
Real manliness whether in an authority position or not and of whatever image, includes not only not competing against the girls, but not competing against the boys either.
The moment religion became zero sum, worldly professions considered they too had been given the overt go ahead.
A thing about me is that I have always thought I was representative humanity. My gut has been critiquing mugs’ games from an early age.
Another thing: feet and hands and hair etc obsessions, or special complimenting about commonplace virtues, are ad hominem as well as intense.
The real Jesus was (like Lily The Pink’s Medicinal Compound LOL) truly new to everybody, but was never “Your Own, personal, Jesus”.
The hugging craze (when we called each other “bro”) and its holy offshoot, the sign of peace are – on a bad day – similar.
At a C of E church the doorway always got blocked by George. George did HORRIBLE things to everybody’s hands of all ages. The same people that told me, 10 years after I left, that the vicar had got suspended, mentioned in passing that there had been other complaints about George too.
A message in churches that I like, is when they show me that they, like the Holy Trinity, have got SPACE for me.
It really is best to have rules that cover everyone (men, women, children), as well as doors with a large piece of window glass.
The Billy Graham Rule just makes life harder for women, who are portrayed as suspects and temptresses, when in fact they probably just want to talk in confidence because of a death in the family, etc.
It might seem normal to have special rules about women when all the pastors are men. However, some churches do ordain women. Moreover, the huge majority of women simply don’t seek to go through life as victims and vixens.
If people expect to go through their pastoral careers being “set up” by women, they might consider a different line of work.
I’m going to tweet this. I agree.
My background as a psych nurse would make me think that massage is a difficult activity because it can be either sexual or non sexual and so people’s expectations can be too ambivalent or can change as a result of the touch taking place. I think it would therefore not be suitable in any setting with any power imbalance or any uncertainty about consent.
My gut reaction would be that massage in a church, school, youth club, etc, should automatically be considered inappropriate.
In a setting where massage is built in to the social norms of the group, such as a physio massaging a footballer’s injury, the expectations are clear and boundaries set from the start.
Im a bit surprised, but I just think massage and church together sound like that church should be avoided.
My thoughts exactly. It’s quite different if you’re seeking to make everyone be safe and feel safe.
Crucial distinction.
Proof once again that there are men who “go into the ministry” for reasons other than ministry.
“Molesters can infiltrate churches easier since people tend to be trusting.” (Dee)
This cannot be emphasized enough. You just can’t afford to trust ANY church leader until you know them – yes, even “Pastor” can’t be trusted until you really know them… “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).
Don’t check your brains at the church door … when you do, you check your kids there, too.
Read the GRACE report.
Woo.
My impressions of it, in my usual edited stream-of-consciousness format:
i.e. Rice was a CELEBRITY. (More on CELEBRITY later.)
These two Pervs said one to another:
“Perv unto Perv o’er the world is Brother!”
Like the culture of mid-period Furry Fandom, with its “furpiles” and “skritchies”. Which provides cover for any Groper. Like the creep at this one Furry party who was constantly stroking anyone & everyone within reach and would only talk in meeping critter noises. Only saw him at that one party, never before or since. I wonder whether that was one of those “I’m Off My Meds!” situations.
(Though Waller seems to be have a Bill Got Hard thing about feetz while Rice takes the Ravi Z route with massages.)
Like some sort of Ritualized Daisy Chain.
I remember backrub daisy chains happening at Azusa Newman Center circa 1980, but those were spontaneous, WITHOUT any staff involvement. And none were this ritualized.
This is called “Couldn’t Keep His Hands to Himself.”
Or “Hello! My name is Hands!”
In French, Frottage (feeling ’em up), like Isaac Asimov used to do to women in hotel elevators at SF conventions.
Okay, now I’m turning off the snark. This is where things get Dead Serious.
This is the exact same setup shtick as a notorious predator in early Furry Fandom. Same target profile, too – same-sex, high school age Jail Bait. Ehebephilia instead of Pedophilia. (Pedo- targets PRE-pubescents.)
His shtick was to share a hotel room at a convention (SF cons before Furry split off into a separate fandom with separate specialized cons) with the target, usually a much younger Furry artist. This in and of itself was not suspicious, as splitting room shares to save hotel room costs was and is very common. Once they were in the room, the final-approach would begin.
Even the “spiritual father, mentor figure” angle, as the guy was a very respected SMOF (“Secret Master of Fandom”, someone without an official position in a given fandom but is unofficially very influential).
And even in Old School SF, Asimov (le Frotteur) was a respected and prolific Golden Age author and MZB (who covered for a Predator husband or ex-husband, can’t remember which it was) a well-known author and editor, both with their own dedicated fandoms. i.e. both were CELEBRITIES.
Remember what I just said about room shares at verious fandoms’ conventions being common?
Aside: This sounds more like the Christianese obsession with Porn and Accountability Partners. (Eagle has blogged extensively on this subject.) All too often as Entropy sets in, Accountability Partnership goes very sour, to the point that it becomes a Porn Fix for the Pious in and of itself.
“Sharing Personal Struggles” is a strong bonding mechanism, for better and for worse.
“Without my parents knowing at all” is ALWAYS A BAD SIGN.
Such Deep Dark Secrets mean something REALLY Dark and Twisted is going down or about to go down.
I think molesters take something perfectly good like massage and turn it into a means to end for their evil purposes.
My purpose in using massage in the title is to make people aware that there are those who use it for evil, like Ravi Zacharias. lIke everyone else. I love a good massage but I sure don’t want it done by my pastor.
Eek!
OldTimer,
Why does the position of pastor seem so much more prone to temptation than others?
Having gone through two and a half (two full-term and a miscarriage) pregnancies and having had a couple health problems (since resolved) with the reproductive system AND having had a gentleman GP for a number of years, I have spent plenty of time behind closed doors with male doctors, nurses, and ultrasound technicians.
Alone.
Their virtue was never compromised. Pinky swear.
In the situations where a more “intimate” exam or procedure was required, either my husband happened to already be there or a lady staff member came in for the duration of the procedure.
Funny, but I always assumed it was more for MY protection than the male medical professional.
Some boundaries make sense. Others are more harmful (when taking into account BOTH parties involved) than helpful.
I did have a pastor once who practiced the “Billy Graham Rule” against me when I was trying to help out as a volunteer admin assistant. Logistical difficulties aside, it made me wonder. Was it because he didn’t trust himself to keep his hands to himself, or because he thought he was just such a fine specimen that I wouldn’t be able to keep from throwing myself at him? Also made my interactions with his wife (who was a wonderful women whom I deeply respected) awkward, because it felt like she didn’t trust him (or me?).
This is less of a reply and more of an opine. The term TBGR reminds me of my seminary days at SEBTS. My evangelism professo was very big on advocating TBGR and proclaimed it’s merits (and his adherence) throughout the semester. Years later he was exposed as having multiple affairs and quietly left the faculty.
Wild Honey,
“I did have a pastor once who practiced the “Billy Graham Rule” against me when I was trying to help out as a volunteer admin assistant.”
++++++++++++
how did he use it against you?
seems to me the BG rule can be used for patriarchal purposes, to keep it a mens only club, where women are waitresses who serve at the men’s pleasure.
women perpetually being kept on a leash — kept in the secretary, assistant, peon level. not getting the benefit of information, training, trust, responsibility, an equal voice,…
hell, if “she” is such a scary prospect, how is it even possible for her to be entrusted to anything & be challenged to grow in valuable skills (of consequence) and responsibility?
(i think the billy graham rule is used to prevent these things from happening. passive aggression! that’s the ticket! that’s Real Men for ya, Christian Edition!)
In a relatively minor way, in the big scheme of things, but nonetheless irritatingly.
We were supposed to meet weekly (though it didn’t end up being that frequent). He always wanted to meet in coffee shops or the like, even though there was a church office available. Which was awkward, because I didn’t want to use the cafe’s space without paying for something to eat or drink, and I didn’t think it appropriate that members’ hard-earned tithe money go toward my personal coffee (as opposed to a church function where everyone was welcome). I think (but could be mistaken) the pastor used the church credit card for his refreshments.
What complicated things was my one-year-old daughter. As a full-time caregiver, I didn’t want to use up so many of my precious grandma-sitting hours for a volunteer thing. Every single week. (Maybe that makes me selfish, but the church DID have an openly acknowledged problem with volunteer burnout.)
When she was little enough, my daughter was content to sit in a high chair with snacks and toys. But when she got more mobile, there was no way to have a focused adult conversation in the middle of a crowded cafe while letting my toddler wander around amongst the tables.
I asked the pastor if we could meet at the church, so she could wander and play in a more enclosed area while we met. The answer was “unfortunately not, because no one else is going to be around.”
Rather than continue to pull my hair out and have unrealistic expectations of my kid, I quit. (There were other factors contributing to my quitting, but many related to the whole “unrealistic expectations” umbrella.)
If he wasn’t comfortable meeting at the church, was pretty sure he wouldn’t want to come to my house to meet (which would also have given her a safe place to run around). I briefly thought of asking if we could meet at his house, assuming his wife (a homeschooling SAHM) would be around. But didn’t want to add the 40-minute (one way) commute to my already unrealistic volunteer hours.
Which actually made sense in the time and place it originated. WHen travelling evangelists couldn’t dare do anything which might be construed as scandalous.
But like everything else in the Chrsitianese Bubble, everybody HAD to apply it Letter-Jot-Tittle of The Law in any and all situations – even those in which it Made No Sense Whatsoever. It became not only The Way We’ve Always Done Things, but Commanded by God Himself For All Eternity..
I’ve been trying to phrase this tactfully and politely but it becomes too wordy so I’ll just say it:
Ministry attracts psychopaths, the inadequate and people with all sorts of problems. Their motivation varies from thinking it will help them sort their own problems out, give them an identity to actually looking for victims.
Until churches deal with this fact nothing will change.
I think you are right. The ministry also attracts (or used to attract) quite a few adult children of alcoholics, who have a desire to solve difficult problems or at least provide comfort. Such seminarians could be stellar, or they could be pretty damaged and less able to help than they believe they are.
But some churches do have a long screening process, starting with lay committees in the congregation, then mandatory psychological screening before and during seminary. A decent seminary is academically rigorous, promoting critical thought. The stress built into a thorough program should strengthen ministry candidates, so that they are less likely to be overwhelmed by actual church life. The program should include well-supervised clinical pastoral education. The whole process should take four years. The seminary should promote humility, courtesy, and listening, instead of promising power and celebrity.
A lot of narcissists would find all of this boring, and would wander off to get a job selling yachts or something.
Instead, they start their own churches where they don’t have any accountability. The bigger problem is what causes so many people to be so foolish as to follow them.
Why do you think people do that?
I’d guess that churchgoers tend to believe church is safe, or safe enough. Many people with a big concern about church safety don’t go to church at all. It’s also not well known that safeguards exist—although, as always, I’ll add that there are no guarantees, just reduced risk.
Yeah, like these guys should have enough to do preaching the Gospel, praying and seeking God for a Sunday sermon, followed by ministering to (rather than abusing) them through the week. Shouldn’t be much time left over for giving massages.
“The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love to have it so!”
(Jeremiah 5:31)
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love to have it so!
(Jeremiah 5:31)
When the straight and narrow way becomes too tough, when following God isn’t enough, the people search for a king to give them what they want = much of the American church.
Then why do they go to church? After all, church is where I constantly heard about “the culture” and its false gods, false kings, evil music, etc.
Our youth minister actually preached that boys were morally better than girls, because a girl would sell her soul to get an expensive dress.
I was so proud of the boys that time. “Corvettes,” said one. “Baseball,” said another.
Yep, and much of the institutional church has now surrendered to all of that. The Great God Entertainment now sits on the throne, churches scramble to be “culturally-relevant” to attract the masses before a church down the street gets them, with leaders who say “tell me which way you want to go and I’ll get out in front to lead.” There is little in the American church that resembles God’s plan for the Body of Christ … there are exceptions of course – Praise God for the Wartburgers who have found the genuine in the sea of counterfeit.
I think it’s a combination of wanting to be part of something big, wanting to make a difference, the need for social networks, wanting a safe place, and being too trusting or busy or lazy to ask hard questions.
Oh, but the stress, the responsibilities………. (Sarcasm)
These are excellent insights.
BGR, as I have ever heard it, was focused on protecting the ministry leader. (In my circles it was protection from himself not a designing woman, but I’m sure elsewhere the designing woman angle is more prominent.)
We have had plenty of evidence for a number of years that men as well as women can represent a temptation for a man in ministry, but there has been no change to the BGR.
I don’t know that I’ve ever heard concern for the “rule” as a way to protect the other person even after #MEtoo and the emerging understanding of the effects of the power differential and the greater danger a person in power poses to the other party. But it seems past time for thought to be given as to perhaps not a “rule” but practice guardrails to protect others (male or female) from an exploitive ministry leader.
It is also true that the BGR reinforces patriarchy and has the effect of disadvantaging women in their interactions with men in the church.
The BGR can mean women are not offered the kind of one-on-one conversations when new ideas are conceived or sometimes when important decisions are made.
The BGR also interferes with conflict resolution. When a man who wants to resolve a conflict with another man (including one in power), they will usually go to lunch. A meal together at a restaurant provides a neutral space and sharing food is a communal activity with positive associations that can make conflict resolution a bit easier.
But I’ve seen a woman request to meet at a restaurant to talk things out and be turned down because of the BGR. (BGR in that particular church culture was applied differently than in Wild Honey’s situation. BGR in that church required any 1:1 to take place in a church office with a window in the door and other people in the building.)
That application of the BGR leaves women at a disadvantage if they are trying to resolve a conflict with a church leader. They are typically required to meet on his territory (his office) in a formal situation.
It’s interesting to think about how the dynamics in churches would shift if there was recognition that 1)sexual attraction and temptation could extend to those of the same genders and 2) if there was a replacement for the BGR of behavioral guardrails that would protect the other party from the person with more power. It seems like it would serve as a protection against abuse by the person in power and deal a huge blow to the practices of the patriarchal “good ole boys” networks. The church would look really different!
Yes, searching for the right online sermon can be very stressful.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Yes.
JD Hall is out now: https://julieroys.com/jd-hall-pulpit-pen-founder-deemed-unfit-ministry-montana-church/
“Earlier this week, the team at Protestia received allegations of serious sin committed by our brother JD Hall,” the statement reads. “After correspondence with leadership at Fellowship Baptist Church, we learned that JD was determined by the church to have disqualified himself from pastoral ministry, had resigned from the pastorate, and submitted himself to a process of church discipline. Due to JD’s removal from pastoral ministry, we likewise have removed him from ministry with Protestia.”
The draw of mega-mania in a nutshell. Sincere Jesus-loving folks can get drawn into a mega-mess if the last part of your sentence takes hold of them, when critical-thinking and critical-asking get checked at the door.
Wasn’t that also the appeal of Maziism and Communism?
“Look at you now – changing the face of Europe!”
— Holocaust (Seventies miniseries), Babi Yar scene
A male-supremacist culture will always have a soft spot for male homosexuality. Since women are domestic animals/breeding stock, they only way to have sex with a REAL person is with another man.
However, that requires “making a woman out of a man”, or worse “somebody More Manly than Thou making a woman out of YOU” (Penetrator or Penetrated Zero-Sum Game, you know), so they will also have a revulsion to it.
Result: A Love/Hate Relationship with Homosexuality. (MALE Homosexuality; female Homosexuality is completely off the radar.)
Workaround: Make being the Penetrator On Top an (unofficial) Privilege of the Rich and Powerful (or The Anointed), viciously punishing ONLY the Penetrated on the Bottom. The logic of prison rape: The Penetrator becomes Even More Manly because He Makes A Woman Out of The Pentrated FAG On The Bottom.
Animal Forced Dominance Display.
ANIMAL.
No matter how many Bible Verses you quote or long prayers you make to show God Is On Your Side.
Do you know how long I would have tolerated that ‘youth minister’?
“The Dark Power cannot Create, only Corrupt.”
— J.R.R.Tolkien (from memory)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“But like everything else in the Chrsitianese Bubble, everybody HAD to apply it Letter-Jot-Tittle of The Law in any and all situations – even those in which it Made No Sense Whatsoever. It became not only The Way We’ve Always Done Things, but Commanded by God Himself For All Eternity.”
++++++++++++++++++++
seems to me christians (or perhaps it’s religionists in general) are ever looking for and are drawn to textbook formulas and step-by-step instructions like moths to a kerosene lamp.
no critical thinking required.
can’t see how any faith is required either.
and then it occurs to me, “they have faith in what, then?”
(it’s all so stupid)
“SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! IT IS WRITTEN!”
Long ago I observed that when Christianity goes sour, it curdles into something strongly resembling Islam.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
maybe it’s religion in general, when the leaders’ control is threatened
(as expressly different from when the religion itself is under threat… persecution, perhaps…. i dunno — i use the word “persecution” with the same caution i’d normally reserve for (well, you know) — this persecution thing is such an abused notion, by people living in the midst of relative luxuries for political power)
American Christianese PERSECUTIONT(TM) is best described by Weird Al Yankovic’s “First World Problems”.
Problem is when you’re at the top of Maslow’s heirarchy and never faced a REAL existential threat, you will react to the most trivial First World Problems as if they were Life-or-Death Threats.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Fear is always a great way to “rally the troops”…. I have been through to many to count “revivals” that either used end time “rapture”, or the country is going to he$$ “motivators”..
John,
Same thing happens in counseling professions. It’s called ‘wounded healer’ syndrome.
Was this his way of not admitting he found the boys more fanciable? A girl’s dress is a fairly ad hominem item.
I don’t think that, say, growing up with an alcoholic family member should automatically disqualify someone from becoming a pastor or therapist.
If someone has come to terms with their own wounds, they might be the best healer of all. Unresolved problems, or lack of empathy, should disqualify people.
Well, this is the same man who kept telling us about the bliss of being a newlywed… other pastors sensibly did not share the specifics.
He preached memorably about love one time. “If I found a guy trying to steal my car, I’d punch him out. Because that would be the most loving thing I could think of in that moment.”
But yeah sure, girls ‘n’ dresses.
(I’d scream right now, but it might scare the family.)
Michael in UK,
The church closed a little over a year after he left to be a campus pastor at a multi-site mega. COVID probably accelerated the decline, but it was pretty apparent that’s where it was heading without significant structural changes.
Friend,
People whose religion is ad hominem shouldn’t try to be youth workers (or any kind of church workers) LOL.
Like an M.B.A. who leaves a trail of dead companies and unemployment lines as he climbs the Corporate ladder.
And in the Jesus Racket, “Multi-site Mega” is where the REAL money is.
Pastor’s Smokin HAWT Wife Syndrome.
i.e. “LOOK WHAT I GOT THAT YOU! CAN’T!! HAVE!!!”