“One’s dignity may be assaulted, vandalized and cruelly mocked, but it can never be taken away unless it is surrendered.” ― Michael J. Fox.
Today I had a planned post but decided to check out a few websites. That action usually means a random post will occur. From Warren Throckmorton, I learned that in January 2022,
Sutton Turner today placed on his blog about 30 pages of material from the 2014 investigation into the formal charges against Mark Driscoll.
For those of you who do not know Turner, he was Driscoll’s, right-hand man. When Driscoll said: (I still can’t listen to his nonsense, so there is a link if you wish to hear him say it.)
“There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done” – Mark Driscoll
Sutton Turner would have been driving the bus. He is an extremely bright man when it comes to business. How he got sucked into Driscoll’s absurdity is puzzling to me. However, in the end, he left Mars Hill and often spoke about repentance and forgiveness: Sutton Turner (Mark Driscoll’s Former Right Hand Man) and His ‘Timely’ Posts on Repentance and Forgiveness.
When this blog started, Driscoll was a subject that provided me with many hours of insanity. There were the demon trials. Driscoll claims he could “see things” like the bed upon which a woman was having an affair. I bet that counseling moment will long be remembered! Here is everything you wanted to know about Driscoll. When Will TGC and Friends Admit That Mark Driscoll Taught Tacky Theology?
The Gospel Coalition quietly removed Driscoll’s many posts and never said a word about it. They must have been embarrassed when a mere woman (me) was proven to be more correct in her theology than they were. Make no mistake about it. Driscoll’s brazen and bullying lifestyle is still quietly admired by some of the theodudes. They wished they could have made it work. Oh well, back to the theological drawing board. There’s plenty of stuff from Calvin about “authority,” and 9Marx has great stuff about how to beat a church member into submission via church discipline.
Here is a link to Investigating the Formal Charges: Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill Church.
Why weren’t these records released sooner?
I bet you guessed it. Driscoll threatened to sue.
At the time Driscoll resigned from Mars Hill in 2014, he threatened legal action towards anyone that shared details of the investigation including me and many of the elders who had investigated the formal charges against him.
Why are they afraid of Driscoll?
It is incredible that bright men like Sutton Turner are still cowed by Driscoll. Is this an example of extreme spiritual abuse? Yep, IMO. To all the people in Driscoll’s new church in Scottsdale, take note. Dear Mark Driscoll. He’s Back, and, If the Stories Are True, He Appears to Be Bonkers.*
To this day, many of us are still fearful of Driscoll. Even so, it is time to share these details.
Why was Driscoll’s resignation from Mars Hill a surprise? Ask Religion News Services, the ever-present Mark Demoss, who gets lots of religious leaders out of messes, and Robert “There are demons everywhere” Morris.
On October 14, 2014 Mark Driscoll resigned from Mars Hill while under investigation from elders of Mars Hill Church based on formal charges and the governance by-laws that Driscoll helped to create. The resignation was a surprise (as you will see below) to the leadership of Mars Hill. Secretly, Mark Driscoll had coordinated with Mark Demoss and Religious New Service (Driscoll’s statement) to drive the narrative that would put Driscoll in a positive light so he could plant a church in Phoenix and sell books in the future. The night before Driscoll resigned from Mars Hill he discussed his decision and received advice from both Robert Morris and Larry Osbourne.
It might appear that Driscoll had his departure to Arizona planned.
Enter Brian Houston, who did a cream puff interview with Driscoll.
No wonder Houston didn’t spot Carl Lentz and the rest of his embarrassing pastors. He played right into the hands of Driscoll. Go to this link if you would like to view the interview (I can’t stand looking at Driscoll or Houston).
In the interview, it appears he claims he was going to stick around for the fireworks, but Grace came up with a “vision.” Why is it that the so-called visions of some pastors and their wives seem to lead them to do the easy thing like earn more money or run away from the difficulties and head to Phoenix?
Mark Driscoll: Grace walked in and she said, “I feel like the Lord just spoke to me and said what we’re supposed to do.” And I was like, “I feel like the Lord just spoke to me and said that (sic) we’re supposed to.” And it’s not what we wanted. It’s not what we had agreed to. And it’s not what we had planned for. And so I asked her, “Well, what did the Lord say to you?” Because I didn’t want to influence her. And she said-
Grace Driscoll: “We’re released.”
Mark Driscoll: Yeah.
Grace Driscoll: “From Mars Hills.”
Mark Driscoll: Yeah.
Brian Houston: We can take him out. (We can take a time out)
Mark Driscoll: She said, “Well, what did he say to you?” And I said, “Well, the Lord revealed to me that a trap has been set. There’s no way for us to return to leadership.” And I didn’t know what that meant or what was going on at the time. And I said, “He said we’re released and we need to resign.” This is not what we anticipated.
Brian Houston sucks up to Driscoll and says his Hillsong “team” loves Driscoll. And what a team he had…
If you read the entire transcript, you will find examples of Houston sucking up to Driscoll. For example:
Mark Driscoll:
I hope to teach the Bible.
Brian Houston:
Well, I certainly think that you’re anointed to do so.
Mark Driscoll:
Thank you.
Brian Houston:
You’re an outstanding teacher. I’ve already told you we are probably a little different on some things, but I personally find you teaching very stimulating and very, very powerful. I know a lot of people even in my team do as well. So, personally, I hope you do get to teach again. My personal feeling for you is to see you flourish in ministry and have your best days ahead of you.
Robert Morris and Mark Driscoll: “The internet is not true.”
So Morris, who claims he must get exorcised regularly, entertained Driscoll at his church. This visit caused me to predict that Driscoll would move to sunny climes in Is Mark Driscoll Rising With the Help of *Dr* Robert “Formerly Demon Possessed” Morris?
Here are two posts to document my concerns with Morris’s teaching on demons.
- Robert Morris and Gateway Church: Could 95% of the Church Be in Bondage to Demons?
- ARC’s Robert Morris: Paul Preached “Under the Influence”
Morris went so far as to say to “stop shooting our wounded.” There is no question in my mind that Morris was pushing all things Driscoll. As you may know, Morris is one of the big wig leaders of the ARC. Now, Driscoll’s church is not listed on the site, but I bet many churches elect not to do so. I wonder…is Driscoll part of the ARC? Julie Roys highlights some of his appearances in Despite Continued Cult-like Activity, Mark Driscoll Continues to Headline Conferences in which she wrote:
- Morris also served as an overseer for The Trinity Church with Jimmy Evans and Randal Taylor,
- Aspokesman for Robert Morris told The Roys Report last year that Morris no longer serves as an overseer at Driscoll’s church “but is available if counsel is sought by the church leaders.”
- This past August, Morris and Gateway hosted a preaching conference in conjunction with ARC, which featured Driscoll as a speaker
Back to Sutton’s post:
Just a week after Mark resigned from Mars Hill in October 2014, he was quickly working on his image and narrative with the help of Robert Morris and Gateway Church. Here is part of the transcript from Robert Morris talking about Mark Driscoll at the Gateway Conference in October 2014. Morris then invited Driscoll onto the stage to talk about how his family had suffered during their time at Mars Hill.
- Robert Morris: I want to introduce you to a friend, a good friend of mine. And I’ve been speaking with him for several months now. He’s going through a difficulty that most of you’ve probably read about. I know the behind the scenes story … And I want to say a couple of things. First of all, I want you to know that everything you read on the internet is not true. There are some pastors, myself included, and some others that you would know that were speaking into his life and he’s listening. And most of what you read is not true … And it’s very sad that in the church, we’re the only army that shoots at our wounded, and I want you to stop it. I really do. Thank you. I’d like for you to show your love for him, I’d like for you to just welcome him. Mark, would you stand up? This is Mark Driscoll.
- Robert Morris: Also, it should be noted that during this same conversation on the stage, Robert Morris states: “And we were talking the night before he resigned and talking about that, and talking through the situation and he’s resigned the church that he founded and pastored for 18 years.” Driscoll discussed leaving Mars Hill with Robert Morris, a pastor he had never met face-to-face before Driscoll resigned from Mars Hill.
Sutton Turner has added much information to the Mark Driscoll story and, for that, I am grateful. It is my hope that all of the former leaders at Mars Hill stop fearing Driscoll. Years ago, I gave my son some advice about a bully targeting kids in school. I told him to push back, and he did. The kid came down a corridor, preparing to bump into my son who took advantage of the fact that the bully’s feet being in the wrong position. My son smashed him up against some lockers, which surprised the bully who went away. The only way to deal with a bully who appears bonkers is to do exactly what Turner just did. Expose him.
As for Brian Houston. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Such a judge of character.
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He sure is branching out again, slowly like a virus appearing here and there
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I was at an Acts 29 church when Driscoll was asked to step down from the A29 board. We were told to pray for the Driscoll family and the difficult time they were going through. There was zero mention of the subsequent Mars Hill implosion and accusations of spiritual abuse. I didn’t find out until a few years later when I stumbled upon TWW.
By then, we’d realized the A29 church was toxic and had made our way to a (drumroll, please) Harvest Bible Chapel plant. When MacDonald pulled his church from the church planting network, we were again told to pray for the difficult time he must be going through. No mention later of the lawsuit, etc. I felt deja vu. Around the same time, we experienced toxicity from leadership and left before we could be disciplined.
The elder who drove us out defended his “right theology,” which was somehow even righter than MacDonald’s theology (despite being identical). Didn’t stop him from gaslighting us and lying to my face. But, whatever.
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I think I’ve realized why everyone is so afraid of Mark Driscoll. He’s an alligator.
https://mpierce.substack.com/p/does-your-church-suck?s=r
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My brother asked me not to go over there to protest after the reports of long guns being stored on the church campus surfaced. I hate that I have to be *responsible* these days. (Not sarcasm. Seriously, I have to be responsible now.)
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You are right after what 7 or 8 years, many former pastors/elders of Mars Hill still fear Driscoll.
I still deal with this fear.
We contacted 86 former elders of Mars Hill Church for the below statement – only 9 disagreed with the statement, but only 41 could sign it. The others had either fear of Driscoll coming after them or could not be linked to Driscoll in their current job.
Spiritual abuse is real in a church and it is long lasting.
https://suttonturner.com/f/former-elders-driscoll-is-still-%E2%80%98unrepentant%E2%80%99-unfit-to-pastor
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Wow. Driscoll is such a dangerous man. He has hundreds of sheeple following him, and he is leading them down a primrose path. I seriously doubt that he knows Christ. if he did, God would convict him so deeply of his dececption, ruination of thousands of lives, and he would never be able to stand up and preach.
On another note. Dee, thank you for showing me grace and not shutting me down. You have never removed one of my posts, even though I am a Calvinist and support some of the people you oppose. There are others who only post my comments if they agree with their views. Julie Roys.
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There hasn’t been much follow up on the material Turner shared. I wrote a tiny bit, in consideration of the range of the materials released, earlier in the year.
https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2022/01/sutton-turner-posts-notes-from-2014.html
What jumped out for me was that in the midst of being investigated one of Driscoll’s responses to an allegation that he slandered a former executive elder was to mention that the former elder was found guilty of things like embezzlement or plagiarism (it’s been months since I waded into those notes). There’s no way that followed 1 Tim 5:19-20 at any level.
I’ve been on a blogging sabbatical this year because of a few things and partly because ten years of steady coverage of MH stuff took a ton of time.
But there is a lot of material in the notes Turner shared that I’m not sure anyone has done much writing about, not even me or Throckmorton. But Turner has put the notes out there and they are worth going through.
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One of my assignments in seminary was to read one of Driscoll’s books. This was 2012 or so. I had major problems with him being put forth as a “good leader” and told my prof that I was concerned about his anger and misogyny. My prof said to take the good and discard the bad. Problem was that I couldn’t find the “good” in a leader who had that amount of anger towards others.
I remember thinking that something would happen and the anger would be revealed.
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Micah,
This whole situation makes me ill..
I do not need to “read anything on the internet”… I have watched messages given by Driscoll on You tube, and his own words, and his anger, as Micah states, is disgusting to me…
And, anyone “endorsing him” disgusts me..
there comes a time when “we” need to take a stand and “call out” people like Driscoll… this is one of those times..
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Jim Jones had his Red Guard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown
NBC lost several reporters and the US lost a Congressman to Jones’ Red Guard.
There are several documentaries covering this, including one by NBC with the NBC survivors who, in their own words, “miraculously” returned from their “simply reporting” excursion alive.
Yes, cults with militias are serious business.
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Wild Honey, o
You sound a bit like me. I went from an SBC church with kids abused to an Anglican church that defended them to a nondenominational church taken over by a Calvinista. What a journey.
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Don’t look for the “calling out” among the theologians, seminary profs, clergy, book peddlers, and other such “leaders” and “experts”. It’s a good ole boys network. Anyone against CSA and DV has known this for a loooong time. Decades. The boys don’t out the bad boys. Cuz boys will be boys and BFF boys.
There’s some atheist guy who calls them out.
There’s also Steve Hassan, cult expert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hassan
And finally, God bless Dee and Todd and Julie Roys. Calling out the criminal clergy… and in no way supportive of the good ole boys BFF mob.
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Bob M,
Even I disagree with my self on a regular basis. 🙂
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The theodudes loved this guy and still secretly mourn his semi-passing.
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It’s nice to hear from you. There is so much more. As the day turned into night, I had to give up and just focus on a couple of things.
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Sutton Turner … extremely bright man … How he got sucked into Driscoll’s absurdity is puzzling to me.” (Dee)
There have been a lot of extremely bright people sucked into the New Calvinist movement, following folks like Driscoll, Piper, Mohler, Dever, et al. Being intellectual does not necessarily mean you are smart. The problem with deception has nothing to do with brilliance … you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.
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“Driscoll’s brazen and bullying lifestyle is still quietly admired by some of the theodudes.” (Dee)
I can take you to an SBC NeoCal church plant near me. If you close your eyes when the “lead pastor” starts speaking, you would swear that you are listening to the potty-mouth from Seattle. There are 100s/1000s of Driscollites in American pulpits = Driscoll’s legacy.
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“Robert Morris and Gateway Church: Could 95% of the Church Be in Bondage to Demons?”
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, the majority of the American church is in bondage to illegitimate authority in the pulpit … no use for demons to show up, unanointed men are doing a fine job leading the people of God astray. The authority and influence of Jesus are waning in the American church.
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“The only way to deal with a bully who appears bonkers is to do exactly what Turner just did. Expose him.” (Dee)
Bullies don’t know how to respond when their authority is challenged. Driscoll can be silenced with a prophetic finger pointing into his face.
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Whew! I hope it wasn’t “Real Marriage” … that one is pornographic!
P.S. Just because someone is a seminary professor, doesn’t necessarily mean he is smart. I hope the prof is assigning other reading materials now.
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Being in a dark valley for a season enables you to lead others out. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it. Once you know it, you can’t un-know it … it’s in your knower.
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“Robert Morris and Gateway Church: Could 95% of the Church Be in Bondage to Demons?”
Helping to restore Mark Driscoll to the pulpit was demonic activity.
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Thus shifting the spotlight off Deep Throat Driscoll and into Sotierology/Theology. And while we’re arguing who’s Saved and who’s not (and how many angels can dance on a pinhead), DTD sneaks out the back door laughing.
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I read the notes/records Sutton published. The acronyms and numbers instead of names was work to get through.
I was struck by a few things:
-MD’s megalomaniacal narcissism (this is such old news but it’s still startling to read)
-the obsession with ‘biblical’.
.
.
The elders were so concerned to do everything biblically — like they distilled all the NT epistles down to a huge list of phrases and words and were required to check them all off as accomplished.
it reminded me of my colorforms dress-up kit when i was a kid–
a cardboard character you could prop up so they stand upright. and you can dress them up in all these rubbery plastic clothes, shoes, and accessories that cling to the character. And then peel them off.
there was even a KISS colorforms! Yes, Gene Simmons & co. (how embarrassing for them)
.
.
this is what biblical means:
reducing oneself down to a one-dimensional piece of flat cardboard and dressing yourself up in layer upon layer of shoes, boots, pants, skirts, jackets, hats, scarves, sunglasses, jewelry…
you don’t mean it, you don’t feel it, you don’t even necessarily like it or believe it…
but you have to dress up in it. (tons of things to put on)
that’s the object of the exercise of being biblical
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Private Revelation direct from God Himself.
How Convenient.
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In Christianese, “Chew the meat and spit out the bones.”
(Usually spoken by someone trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you.)
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“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries
In Old School D&D terms, “Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3.”
Which often happens IRL because you can get so focused on you’re Intelligence that you neglect other facets of your development. Like a “Perfect 10” female who’s been able to get by entirely on her physical beauty – until one day she can’t any more.
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They’re way too busy, anyway – possessing D&D miniatures, Cabbage Patch Dolls, sweaters from thrift shops, and that fantasy print I have framed at the top of my stairs. And writing insulting messages with invisible fingers on Bob Larson’s fogged-up bathroom mirror.
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More like a cancer metastasizing.
(Though he can cause brain fog like Long-haul COVID in those he infects.)
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dee,
They were practically falling at his feet at the time, and his model for “leadership” was the best thing since sliced bread. The theodudes would probably celebrate his return and spin it with christianese.
Says a lot about the current state of churches.
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Max,
Definitely not “Real Marriage”.
I hope he has found better books to assign, but I don’t have much basis for that hope. I’ve been around seminary profs long enough to know that they aren’t always smart or well formed in the Christian faith.
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But if you call his 1-800 number, and give 100$ to the communicator club, they will stop. He promises so.
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I agree with Dee…why is anyone “fearing” talking the Truth about M Driscoll?
Although, I agree with Muslin’s brother, having an arsenal of long guns in a church indicates a person and church to stay away from…
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the tragedy is this:
that there is a MARKET for Driscoll’s garbage . . . .
that it can be ‘tapped in to’ by those who seek to associate themselves with his fame, if not his game,
and that these folks WILL ‘support’ him for their own gain ‘by association’
and that ‘MARKET’ for the misogyny, for the macho cr*p,
it’s the SAME MARKET that dwells deep in MAGA-LAND
there is big money at work within this ‘force’ politically
look out for ’24 – it’s coming at us like a freight train, these alliances of MAGA politics and far-right extremist culture war ‘religion’ – many ‘targets’ will be on the line, including American democracy, sadly
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Unfortunately, that is also true of a great multitude of “pastors” in American churches. It seems that being wise and spiritual are not ministry requirements these days. How many would truly pass qualifications for the sacred office of pastor as outlined in First Timothy and Titus? We’ve got a bad case of “laying on of hands hastily” in the American church.
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You know, back in the day, I thought Scientology was the gold standard of cults. And in some ways, it still is. What’s been happening is authoritarian groups (religious, political, social, therapeutic, etc.) are giving Scientology some stiff competition in the “gold standard” department. I can’t even begin to express how tired I am after three decades. Then again, it does bring a smile to my face when I’m watching a “let’s play” for a new video game and the guy doing the playthrough names his home planet “Xenu.”
*We did that.*
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Sums it up.
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New Calvinism is making a good run for that honor in the 21st century.
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Not only does the NT not lay out a plan for church as an enterprise, which pastors, leaders, theologians, and seminary profs do not clarify since they are all on the dole… but when it comes to preaching that induces FEAR, note that when Jesus was born, the first thing the angels said was, “Fear not.”
“When an angel appears to a human in the Bible, the first words out of their mouth are usually ‘do not be afraid.'” (Luke 1:26-33).
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You might want to research what the far left is doing with “queer theory,” and public school teachers regularly bringing up age-inappropriate, explicit, LGBT- type lessons/ beliefs in the school room, sometimes instructing their students to keep what they’re talking about at school a secret from their own parents.
Sometimes these types of far left views on sexuality and gender ideology also show up in progressive churches.
I see them every so often on social media, via progressive Christian twitter accounts.
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When Simon schemed to merchandise the gospel by attempting to buy the Holy Spirit, it don’t go over well:
“When Simon saw how the Spirit was given through the apostles’ laying their hands upon people he offered them money with the words, “Give me this power too” … Peter said to him, “To hell with you and your money!” (Acts 8:9-25 Phillips)
Beware of men in the pulpit who have a touch of charisma, gift of gab, and bag of gimmicks. The Christian Industrial Complex is populated by such characters who are in the ministry as an enterprise for personal gain. They are doing church without God and you will be a participant in their wicked scheme if you join yourself to them.
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Max,
The “radio silence” with respect to so many of our “leading Christain preachers” about these “bad boys” tells me everything I need to know… Growing up in fundamentalist/evangletical world, I listened ad nosium to “preacher” railing against the “secular humanist world”…. however, as Max points out, the Bible, IMHO rails the most against false teacher within their midst, and seem to focus on “bahoavoir failings”, like Max just showed… not secondary theological issues… sigh..
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“You might want to research what the far left is doing with “queer theory,” and public school teachers regularly bringing up age-inappropriate, explicit, LGBT- type lessons/ beliefs in the school room, sometimes instructing their students to keep what they’re talking about at school a secret from their own parents.”
I’ve been involved with my kids school for years. Public school. I have not seen this happen. Cite your source.
In my small town growing up, a kid that others even thought was gay would be bullied mercilessly.
It’s a secular constitutional republic (or in my case I live in a constitutional monarchy).
Nobody is going back in the closet.
Some Christians are having a hard time sharing the table.
In other news, I can’t get “reply and quoted text” thing to work.
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Unfortunately guys like Driscoll will always find a like minded crowd to follow him.
They love the strong man schtick.
Moderate Christians make a huge tactical error by looking at these clowns as co-religionists.
They’re like the ants in my backyard. You can’t get rid of them you a can only contain them.
Full disclosure, I don’t use poison spray, just the diatomaceous earth.
You will never change their mind, best you can do is post warning signs.
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The mind game “Tough Guy”, where parasites suck up to the Tough Guy trying to rub his scent off onto themselves – “HIM TOUGH! ME TOUGH TOO! SEE? SEE? SEE?” If they suck up enough, he might even let them hold his whip. And smile with blessing as they use it.
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These MenaGAWD said one to another,
“ManaGAWD unto ManaGAWD o’er the world is Brother”…
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And the CHRISTIANS will Rejoice.
“AAAAAAA-MENNNN!!!!!! HE SHALL RULE THEM (NOT US!) WITH A ROD OF IRON! AND HIS KINGDOM SHALL HAVE NO END!”
When (not if) Roe v Wade gets overturned (and all the really harsh abortion outlawing takes effect), listen for church bells ringing across the land.
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Headless Unicorn Guy. Do you really think that calling Driscoll “Deep Throat Driscoll” has any more merit than my questioning his salvation? Sometimes, I wonder what your mom thinks when she hears you boot up your desktop computer in her basement.
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While I’m not a big fan of The Message version of the Bible, I like the way it puts Acts 8:20-23:
“Peter said, “To hell with your money! And you along with it. Why, that’s unthinkable — trying to buy God’s gift! You’ll never be part of what God is doing by striking bargains and offering bribes. Change your ways — and now! Ask the Master to forgive you for trying to use God to make money. I can see this is an old habit with you; you reek with money-lust.”
There has been an outbreak of “money-lust” in the American church … merchandising the Gospel for personal gain by “pastors” who went into the ministry, but were not ‘called’ into it.
Regarding “secondary theological issues”, beware of any brand of Christianity which puts God’s plan of salvation on a secondary or tertiary list. The early church considered Jesus and Him crucified as the primary message of the Great Commission … whosoever will may come! It better be our primary message, too.
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Hey Bob, why don’t you leave the ad hominem attack out of it?
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Jack,
1 – You are an advantage if you are in a large decentralised country. In the UK and low countries, even “catholic” schools have been pushing wrongful intensity at children not caring whether parents know about it or not (the material has been republished publicly).
At a time the biggest church was image absorbed, my secular teachers taught us we should consider “having” sex outside marriage (pretending to be on a par with light hearted play ground tittle tattle by “laddies”), and that is why all women, boys and girls are now living in fear or mania.
2 – The supposed divide between “LGBT” (which looks too old fashioned a word now) and non “LGBT” always was a decoy.
3 – There should have been no such thing as “Lord’s table” or “communion ceremony” since about the year 130 anyway and this is more justifiable theologically.
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Friend,
Allowing for a needed entertainment element, I think we ought to aim in our comments, to invite others we don’t know well to add to the knowledge pool.
I fortunately get challenged by Ava; while Mr J. needs challenging not because of what he is trying to say but the way he leaves issues (his own and others’) hanging.
H.U.G leaves issues hanging. Take the row about gifts for example: H.U.G doesn’t say whether he would appreciate the real gifts turning up one day. He also doesn’t admit that in spite of the hackneyed satire about so many different claimed beliefs, diversity of claimed belief is still a true safety valve.
Dee I was alarmed when you said “John Stott was right and Martyn Lloyd Jones wrong”; the way you put it – also referring to their subsequent followers – makes you a total Jamesian. I was actually around the latter part of this discussion while it was still a real discussion by which time Lloyd Jones didn’t want the C of E turned into an “evangelical bloc” while Stott seemed anxious lest the C of E not be seen as evangelical (thus Lloyd Jones proved himself the more tolerant); but they both had poor grasp of what “evangelical” ought to mean.
Inviting unexpected light by others will ward off our blase image. We need more challenges and we especially need to express pain. It’s sometimes accurate when we get called cynics.
Friend, have there been more answers to your questions about prayer yet? I could see that your questions weren’t rhetorical (and I’m educationally backward with a brain lesion) because I put effort into inferring and not assuming.
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Sometimes I feel like God is telling me I need a root beer float.
Or maybe it’s the devil trying to tempt me…
It’s so hard to keep the two straight when evading responsibility for my own decisions.
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Bob M
Please refrain from the blogger in the mom basement comments.
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But calling someone Deep Throat is permissible?
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I will refrain. Because I respect you Dee.
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Bob M,
The nickname refers to Mark Driscoll’s own writings. On this very thread, Max referred to Driscoll’s book Real Marriage as pornographic. Apparently Driscoll wrote about a woman who lured her husband to Driscoll’s church by, uh, you can look that up. Calling Driscoll by that name is not unique to this blog. The nickname is found online as early as 2013.
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Wild Honey on Fri May 20, 2022 at 04:36 PM said:
“Sometimes I feel like God is telling me I need a root beer float.”
++++++++++++++++
…not to be mistaken for “go to the back of the throat” should you ever be swallowed by a whale.
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Michael in UK,
My latest small-r revelation: we turn Ephesians 6 into prayer-warrior cosplay.
Prayer gets me through whatever it is, but it does not absolve me of responsibility to report crimes, visit the doctor regularly, and say please and thank you.
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Bob M,
I think one of the main points is that Mark Driscoll “reveled” in being pornographic… A number of Youtube videos are still up of his porno-preaching… While we can only speculate why he did it (I have my own speculations), HE clearly used that kind of language regularly…
I think we should use it…. ( the “title” ) He has been trying to “remake” himself without any hint of repentance…and we are only highlighting that he is pornographic…
Unlike the Piped Pipper, I do not overlook Driscoll’s incredibly unprofessional speech…. ( “unprofessional is putting it lightly)…
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elastigirl,
Noted.
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It likely is a reference to Woodward and Bernstein’s source for watergate.
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In the case of Driscoll, it should be mandatory. He is foul-mouthed, abusive, pornographic, and unrepentent. He has left a huge trail of destruction and destroyed lives, and he shows no sign of becoming better.
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Michael in UK,
This is how The Church Times recalls the split – https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2009/9-october/features/is-john-stott-mad-has-lloyd-jones-gone-off-his-rocker
I think subsequent events show that Lloyd-Jones was right and Stott wrong. Just as the evangelicals in the Church of Scotland doggedly persisted in remaining in a corrupt and dying institution only to find their voice ignored, so the C of E has become irrelevant.
I’ve been reading Lloyd-Jones’ “Authentic Christianity” (6 volumes, Banner of Truth) and listening to the recorded sermons on which the books are based. His recurrent plea is for a return to true apostolic Christianity as found in Acts and that is what he was proposing all those years ago. Very refreshing.
All the best
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Pastors who went into business, the business of making money… nothing about Jesus since Jesus was never about making money.
Work a job and meet the needs of you and your family seems to have been the recommended lifestyle of the NT. When you have more than what you need, share with the truly needy. Often orphans, widows, and the displaced (refugees or aliens) fall under this category of needy.
This was in stark contrast to the palatial wealth accumulated by David or Solomon, while they were keeping up with the pagan King Joneses. The economics of the Kingdom of God seems to have turned a corner with Jesus’ ministry.
None of the Apostles built a dynasty. They all had regular jobs or professions before being called by Jesus to be fishers of men.
Peter and John said they had no money. But somehow they had basic needs met. Jesus miraculously fed 5000 with bread and fish but not steak, wine, side dishes, plus dessert.
Needs Met And Share Extra With Needy seems to have been the model NT lifestyle, as well as Do Not Build Temples and Palaces Nor Enrich Anyone For Their HS-given GIFTS To The Church.
Pastor, Teacher, Administration, Healing, and Miracles are ALL gifts from the HS to the Body of Christ. In other words, do not sell or pay for these.
Our theologians, pastors, historians, teachers, and Christian writers of books and such, could clarify the economics of the NT churches but they don’t because they’ve all sold out their souls to the same Industrial Religious Complex. They’re all on the dole.
Just like they could figure out the right thing to do about CSA, DV, and pulpit or pew predators. But they don’t.
It took the Houston Chronicle, Jeff Anderson & Associates, Dee, Todd, and Julie Roys to out the predators.
Once a person is making money from the Gospel, it’s not the gospel.
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From the ancient Didache:
In other words, it’s an old problem with a timeless solution.
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Peter and John had no silver and gold, but they could say “Rise up and walk!”
Today’s church has plenty of silver and gold, but can’t say “Rise up and walk!”
We’ve exchanged the power for mammon.
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“… sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares” (Bonhoeffer)
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And he’s still in the ministry! I repeat … anyone who has a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks can have a successful ministry in America. Pulpit actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy tickets to the show.
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Think about it … porno-preaching! If the American church can make room for potty-mouth Driscoll, anything is possible!
“Let there be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse, obscene or vulgar language, because such things are not appropriate for believers; but instead speak of your thankfulness to God” (Ephesians 5:4)
“A horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?” (Jeremiah 5:30-31)
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Max on Sat May 21, 2022 at 10:42 AM said:
” anyone who has a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks can have a successful ministry in America.”
Oh, but ain’t that America for you and me?
Ain’t that America somethin’ to see, baby?
Ain’t that America, home of the free, yeah?
Little pink houses for you and me
— John Mellencamp 1983 —
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I happen to adore little pink houses. Hmph. 😉
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The Haitian peasants answered with a proverb: “Bondye konn bay, men li pa konn separe,” in literal translation, “God gives but doesn’t share.” This meant… God gives us humans everything we need to flourish, but he’s not the one who’s supposed to divvy up the loot. That charge was laid upon us.”
—Tracy Kidder and Paul Farmer
There isn’t always enough, but we should share anyway. Some might go hungry so that others will not starve.
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Max,
When I think about it more, by “preaching about sex” like he does, and he (Driscoll) sure got allot attention for it, he continues to just play into how our culture sensationalizes sex, and, in a sense, violate personal boundaries…. I do NOT care, nor want to know, about M. Driscoll’s sex life…. It is SOO inappropriate for that to be part of his preaching… (the thought is actually kind of disgusting during a “sermon” ) …. Not that I am some prude, just that there are appropriate places for different topics…
In fact, I remember Josh McDowell giving a college message, called “Maximum Sex” sponsored by Campus Crusade for Christ, in the mid 1980’s, and talked about “having sex with his wife”…. And I remember thinking…. “ Ido NOT want to her this….”
I.e. my faith does not need to be marketed using sex talk, like so much of other American marketing…
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Our cherished faith has always struggled to get the sex message right. I recall that there was a Victorian marriage manual given to young men before the wedding, that taught them to approach the bride as if she were a cathedral, gently and reverently. To which one Victorian bride said, “I am not a building.”
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According to James 1, all good things come from God. So, God has shared abundantly and He invites us to also share – with the truly needy, if indeed we have more than what we need. (Needy orphans and widows are also mentioned in James 1.)
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Sometimes there isn’t enough.
When I was a small child, my mother always fed us children, but she herself often went hungry. This went on for four years.
James 1 talks about generosity, but is that the same as giving only when you have extra? If I’m misunderstanding you, please let me know. Comments aren’t always the easiest way to share our deepest insights, but they are what we have.
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In The Demon-Haunted World, Carl Sagan (remember him?) related offhand how during the depths of The Great Depression, his blue-collar immigrant parents did without (even by Depression standards) to make sure he not only didn’t go hungry, but got the best possible education he could.
That was the moment it hit me: Carl Sagan was raised Jewish. Only Jews would place that much value on learning. And that Sagan (who in person had a reputation as a world-class intellectual snob) honored his parents (who were grade-school only garment workers).
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Evidently, the NeoCal dudebros loved to hear about it! They cheered his potty-mouth on for years! I suppose it’s a sick component of the “beauty of complementarity” to enslave women in every compartment of their lives.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thanks, I just spent some time reading about him. His father immigrated from “Russia,” but actually from the part of the tsarist empire now in Ukraine. It’s astounding how many people came to America as imperial boundaries scraped violently across Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries.
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Headless Unicorn Guy on Sat May 21, 2022 at 03:26 PM said:
“That was the moment it hit me: Carl Sagan was raised Jewish. Only Jews would place that much value on learning. And that Sagan (who in person had a reputation as a world-class intellectual snob) honored his parents (who were grade-school only garment workers).”
Asian parents also place a high priority on education and homework at the kitchen table.
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Jesus was a brilliant scholar. Several of his disciples were not. Our faith should withstand rigorous education, but the faith of a child is fine too.
Most of us stop and think when we read the phrase in Matthew 10:16, “…be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.” Unfortunately a few of our self-appointed leaders hear only two words: “Be serpents.”
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Friend,
Your mom sounds like a mom who sacrificed. Often loving parents do so for their children.
“Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself,” said Jesus. As yourself, but not better than yourself.
Luke 3.11: You have two tunics, your neighbor has one, give him one of yours.
Simply share the extra.
Some neighbors don’t want our extras. A single mom at church expressed budget needs. I brought her a bag of food that included a quality farm-raised chicken from our freezer. (We had purchased a batch.) The woman wasn’t pleased… she wanted KFC in a bucket, with fixings and soft drinks.
Navigating people and their needs is a learning curve.
We’ve volunteered at the local shelter where some recipients come back for seconds of cookies after they toss all fresh fruits and veggies in the trash.
Sometimes neighbors desire what they perceive to be as “better” than what one has to offer them. Can’t fix that.
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We were poor.
At one point my mother weighed 85 pounds, about the same as a ten-year-old.
You seem to be criticizing the people you served in a shelter, but maybe you are not. Maybe you are saying that we wealthy people need to ask what kind of food they want. Sometimes the best meal is the one that a family will eat.
If it were easy to escape poverty and hunger, everybody would have done it by now. Yet as Jesus himself said, “…ye have the poor always with you” (Matthew 26:11).
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Your story reminded me of this article I read a while back: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-singh-food-deserts-nutritional-disparities-20180207-story.html
I share it just because it was a perspective I hadn’t considered before, thought you mind find it similarly interesting.
I cook a lot from scratch, but won’t lie, I wouldn’t know what to do with a whole raw chicken, either 🙂 My grandma talks about getting food aid boxes from the US when she was in Europe in the immediate aftermath of WWII. Her family didn’t have a clue what to do with peanut butter or cornmeal. It wasn’t until she immigrated here years later that she found out what they were for.
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Wild Honey,
Interesting article. Junk food as “love” is one POV, which advertising supports. But I guess we can’t believe everything we see/hear out there in the marketplace.
Some families use time and attention, like playing a board/card game or going for a walk, or going to the library, as a reward.
Malcolm Gladwell says his parents made sure he always had a bike, a library card, and friends over … the essentials … “what more does one need?”
Today his networth is in the millions, without selling out his soul or passing a collection plate. He would say he wasn’t deprived.
(If she would have obliged assistance with the farm-raised chicken, we would have stepped in.)
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During those four dark years, we ate cheap food. I “loved” hot dogs and Wonder Bread because that was the best my mother could afford, and those things were familiar to me.
It pains me to think that our neighbors were judging my mother for her unsophisticated palate and poor understanding of nutrition. She was certainly afraid of people.
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Daisy,
Daisy, Thank you for your good response to that comment.
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Friend,
The term “junk food” can be a rabbit hole, eh? Who is claiming hot dogs and white bread are junk foods?
If you read the article at the link… it’s not about less expensive food choices for survival: hot dogs vs grassfed steak. Many have been there, and hot dogs are not junk. They have food value.
It’s about paying $$$ for no nutrition as a reward or pleasure vs some other type of reward that is probably not even food.
Soda pop may be pleasurable but it is more expensive than faucet water…in many circumstances. Potatoes are less expensive than bagged potato chips (not fries).
The original topic was sharing. White bread and hot dogs donations to a food shelf are far more common than soda pop and chips since there’s food value in the former. Generally, people don’t donate a case of Coke or Sprite.
Before there are more comments on this with details and exceptions, note that we lived in West Africa where in some regions bottled Fanta was what we drank while traveling (on a missionary budget), since we could not safely drink the local water. And again, before someone reacts to this, it was a few years ago and maybe times have changed. One does as one must, in context, and circumstances can change.
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Ava Aaronson,
The article is behind a paywall for me.
Anyway, I’m relieved to find common ground. As a child, I didn’t realize how hard my mother worked to conceal our needs. We were fortunate in finding better circumstances after four years, but she had ugly lifelong damage.
Separately, but maybe this will offer insight to someone here: I live in a fairly wealthy area with a lot of concealed poverty. Many prosperous folks don’t believe poverty exists. In a terrible irony, poor parents struggle to send their kids to school in decent clothes so the kids will not be shamed, and then richer people point to those clothes as proof that the child is not poor, or the family has lousy priorities.
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Out here on the Pacific Rim, where Asians and SE Asians predominate.
Sagan was from New York City, with the biggest population of Jews outside Israel.
Incidentally, “Asian” means completely-different ethnicities depending on which shore of the Atlantic you hear it. In the US, it means “East Asians” – Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Tibetan, Viet, Khmer, Thai, Lao, Hmong… In the UK, it means “South Asians” – Indian, Pakistani, Bengali, Punjabi, Nepali, Gurkha…
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RasWhiting on Sun May 22, 2022 at 09:35 AM said:
“Daisy,
Daisy, Thank you for your good response to that comment.”
————–
Good responses have supporting evidence. Besides that, Daisy’s response had nothing to do with the comment she referenced.
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Environmental issues:
https://twitter.com/alvinfoo/status/1527997655145758724?t=r5j4SsLAqwmAQEdUf944lA&s=19
And what they may be reaching for:
https://twitter.com/alvinfoo/status/1527801433860579328?t=KbyhxFiPjtat9EpO4lp3vg&s=03
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Agree. Good point.
He wouldn’t be where he’s at without his following.
Which is commonplace in our lost world.
At a crucial moment, Barabbas had a following and Jesus did not.
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We are at another crucial moment in the church … and Barabbas still has a larger following. Jesus? Heck no, “Give us what we want … Give us Barabbas” the church crowd shouts! The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in the American church … various manifestations of Barabbas have taken His place.
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I like the video where Driscoll talks about the time he committed a hit and run because he thought the man was a demon. He is a lunatic.
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Preparing a frozen chicken is a time-consuming process that a single mom may not have. As a single mom, myself, I have less time to devote to meal preparation than I did when I had a partner. A lot of people don’t realize the complicated life of a single mom – even most of my friends aren’t aware of all the details that we are managing on a daily basis.
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Friend,
James is especially about spiritual generosity. “SO” great salvation.
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I think it has become irrelevant insofar as it tries too hard. Its strength was in reciting / chanting the Office, even flower arranging and old fashioned harvest festivals, and to be quite frank the old fashioned four-square hymns were evangelical but the “evangelicals” (other than the Lloyd Jones tendency) turned up their noses at those.
The Balls, Smyths, Fletchers, Careys, HTB allies, “new apostolics” and cessationists alike, apologetists and “reformed”, and several “networks”, their earnest current look alikes who are now spilling out and infecting what were till now the very Lloyd Jones sort of churches, should have aroused our suspicions for trying too hard.
Well before Lloyd Jones we had a bishop of Woolwich doubting the existence of God, and other daring trendiness, that is when they should have got a grip and carried on their core strengths instead of making such a show. They should have prayed for us.
Because churches didn’t pray for the youth when subjected to lewd teachers, church pew dwellers are now subjected to the same (including the sex obsession in politics) from the church bosses,
This has been so difficult for me to say, thanks so much for helping me say it.
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The counter to being daring & modern was to be daring & modern and fogeyish / grandstanding / moralising / waffling / despising true learning, and not praying.
Fogeys don’t pray, they get themselves appointments on quangoes. Either governmental, or they set up a hot air “institute” in Oxford or Cambridge.
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I was a bit brief and can explain further:
Providence – and through it, perseverance, can come when we trust God in the other. That is the meaning of Ascension (gifts differing without veto).
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Lowlandseer,
Please take care with the quality of your sources.
That publication is called “Shoah, the Palestinian Holocaust.” It has published stories that equate Israeli Jews with followers of the Third Reich, and deny that the Holocaust happened. It crosses the line from differences of opinion to extremism. The Jewish Criterion (a reliable and long-established news organization) published a story about this:
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/outrage-as-palestinian-holocaust-website-shoah-org-launches-on-twitter-1.520085
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Daisy,
Driscoll types, or a “he-man” pope and his sidekick Danneels, and the “retreat” operatives sexualising us children exactly the same way the World sexualised us.
God’s will is that we look for a completely different, spiritual strength for providential perseverance.
The world is going to go through these blips but it doesn’t occur to churches to pray to make us whole, but to counter manoeuvre, using us as battering ram the second time.
Thank you everybody for making the discussion look up. You are making it easier for me to talk about the Gifts.
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So, let’s make him a pastor!!
The church is so open-minded about pulpit lunatics, that our spiritual brains have fallen out. Instead of showing them the exit, we give potty-mouth pastors a platform to speak. We’ve lost our minds!
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When there is no discussion, there can be no consent; but consent can only occur when people are of age and somewhat self aware. Ideally children learn the right values and right ways from their parents. I got some dreadful training at home (purity culture before it was called that). The basic, conservative health training at school helped with the limited topics it covered.
Neither source taught me that a boy would eventually want to kiss me, and that I should think in advance about how to respond. Nobody told me it would be OK to like a boy and kiss him, or to like him but still say no. Nobody said I could dislike a boy, push him away, and maybe scream for help.
Sin I did hear about, endlessly. For me the missing discussion was about autonomy.
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“If it’s happening in the UK, it’s happening in the USA imo.
https://shoah.org.uk/more-than-130-scholars-issue-statement-against-pro-lgbt-lessons-in-schools/
Where’s your evidence that it isn’t?”
How about six years as president of our school’s childcare centre? 13 years having children in the public school system? That’s my evidence!
I have reviewed the diversity curriculum and haven’t had any issues with it.
The only thing I pulled my kid from is a smudging ceremony they wanted to do in the morning. My son isn’t indigenous and it’s a form of religion. Nobody is forced to do it and he wasn’t interested anyway.
Some folks are so terrified of diversity, they blow it out of proportion. Particularly anything gender related. It’s an unhealthy focus on the old testament is my guess.
Let me ask this question? Has anyone in this forum actually had an experience in the public school system? Been on a school board, or PTA or parent action group? Maybe it’s an American thing. Or maybe my province is just not hip with the woke crowd.
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Lowlandseer on Mon May 23, 2022 at 04:33 AM said:
“If it’s happening in the UK, it’s happening in the USA imo.
https://shoah.org.uk/more-than-130-scholars-issue-statement-against-pro-lgbt-lessons-in-schools/
Where’s your evidence that it isn’t?”
Daisy said,
“You might want to research what the far left is doing with “queer theory,” and public school teachers regularly bringing up age-inappropriate, explicit, LGBT- type lessons/ beliefs in the school room, sometimes instructing their students to keep what they’re talking about at school a secret from their own parents.” Daisy
————–
There was no proof in the article you referenced that what Daisy claimed above is happening in the UK or in the US.
You and Daisy are making the claim. Daisy’s claim is pretty explicit. I never said it wasn’t happening, and asking for my proof that it isn’t happening is silly. I seriously doubt it is happening in the way Daisy describes, except by rogue teachers.
But, honestly, this thread is about something else altogether. I’d rather not discuss this in a thread about an Abusive Christian Leader.
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Yes, as a parent in recent years. Our schools are large and exceedingly diverse. Public meetings happen frequently. The family education curriculum is easily available for review, and is not mandatory.
Family curriculum for teens covered things that we had not talked about at home, and I was very grateful. Nope, none of the “grooming” content constantly alleged today. The materials taught students how to keep themselves safe while socializing, e.g., open your own can of soda, and don’t accept a drink in a cup. They also taught ways to identify risky situations and get away without enraging sketchy people.
The students in our district come from everywhere on earth, bringing all their languages and cultures and religions. Because these are American public schools, they learn American history and culture, and become more American over time. That’s presumably what we want in America. It’s also why their families came here, whether centuries ago or last year.
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Or a Bullsh*tter.
If he DID “commit a hit-and-run”, there should be some record of it besides his say-so.
Just like the guy he claimed charged him with a knife while he was preaching.
And the Black Helicopters congregating over his Humble Parsonage.
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“But, honestly, this thread is about something else altogether. I’d rather not discuss this in a thread about an Abusive Christian Leader.”
It’s all interconnected. We’ve already established [insert Christian leader here] is a [abuser/philanderer/psychopath/narcissist] and should be [charged/defrocked/fired/shot out of a cannon].
There’s a reason these clowns are getting support, and it goes way beyond what’s visible.
In fact, what’s happening now makes the scandals of swaggart & Bakker seem almost quaint
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Again, folks, Shoah Dot Org Dot UK appears to be a website representing anti-Israeli Palestinian extremist views. (Not even level-headed Palestianian human rights.)
The “source” within it is not hard news but a petition signed by various British Muslim figures.
In 2019.
Three years ago.
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Dee and/or GBTC, will you please consider putting on your moderation hat and removing the link to the anti-Israel site that has been posted several times now? I don’t think our readers want to go down that particular rabbit hole. It is mentioned first on Monday at 4:33 a.m. and contains the word “Shoah.”
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Friend on Mon May 23, 2022 at 05:56 PM said:
Yes. Besides the questionable source, it proved nothing about what is being taught UK and US schools.
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I don’t recall that that was “quite” what he said and I say that as someone who transcribed about 70% of his 4.5 hour long sprawl on spiritual warfare from 2008. He may have “tried” for a hit and run but in the story I recall transcribing the effort was described as ineffectual. The knife story was significantly exaggerated but based on an actual event. There was “a” helicopter that circled the Woodway house when Driscoll said “Sorry, wrong address”. I remember the local news coverage dealing with that.
He’s got a penchant for exaggeration beyond all doubt but he tends to exaggerate something that happened rather than completely fabricate. More often, however, he uses strategic omission and lets his audience jump to conclusions. He used to joke about “charismaniacs” from the pulpit while not letting on the extent to which he relied on what he regarded as “prophetic dreams” to inform his strategic church leadership decisions but now’s probably not the time to digress into the blogging I’ve done on his use of dream divination.
But I refer to it to point something out, it was only after he left Mars Hill he began to mention the extent of charismatic Catholic influence in his family life. He scrupulously avoided publicly discussing that back in the early days of Mars Hill, so far as I could tell, because the church plant was sent out by the very cessationist Antioch Bible Church.
But the complete absence of any arrests or convictions from any of his “I see things” moments really is worth pointing out, especially since so much of his demon trial stuff seemed to leverage the long-ago debunked recovered memory counseling playbook. For those who read the notes Turner published, if Driscoll’s discernment via “I see things” was really so keen how did he not notice that one of the pastors was plagiarizing and embezzling as he alleged during his 2014 trial investigation?
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Could we please continue the discussion of the topic at hand, please?