Brian Houston, Bill Hybels, and the Peeing Pastor Popped Pills While Drinking Alcohol. Why Did Their Subsequent Behavior Affect Only Women?

The waxing Moon rises over a ridge in the Wasatch Mountains, Utah.-NASA/Bill Dunford

“An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded.” Pope John Paul II


When Todd told me the latest deal with the Peeing Pastor, I had to shake my head: The Peeing Pastor Changes His Name to Protect the Guilty I had called him to discuss Brian Houston’s latest bomb. The other day, I found the following in my Twitter feed and choked on my coffee. I jumped up and yelled: “He’s doing a Bill Hybels!!!” Take a look, especially at the text I highlighted.

An important message from the Hillsong Global Board
Mar 18 2022

The global board of Hillsong Church would like to advise you of some important information concerning our Global Senior Pastor Brian Houston.

There is significant media coverage around these issues, and it is important that you hear from us, understand the truth, and have knowledge of the actions of the board during these times and the heart behind these actions.

As you are aware, Pastor Brian recently stepped aside from his ministry duties. When he stepped down in January this year, the reasons he gave were genuine. The situation with his father over many years had taken a personal toll that was greater than he had realised, and he needed to focus on his upcoming legal issues.

At the time of his announcement, the Hillsong Church board did not make a public statement because we were still working through a number of issues privately with Pastor Brian. These issues are now public, and therefore we would like to share with you the details.

We have sadly been dealing with two complaints made against Pastor Brian over the last 10 years. These matters – like all such matters under our code of conduct – were dealt with confidentially. In both of these cases we respected the confidentiality of both Pastor Brian and those involved, and we also must abide by local employment law. We are a church that believes in grace, love, restoration and integrity; these are our guiding values.

You can be assured that investigations into these complaints were treated extremely seriously. Each of these were conducted by either board members or a body appointed by the global board to hear and resolve complaints against credentialled pastors, and were assisted by highly respected external pastors and advisors.

The first issue was approximately a decade ago and involved inappropriate text messages from Pastor Brian to a member of staff, which subsequently resulted in the staff member resigning. At the time, Pastor Brian was under the influence of sleeping tablets, upon which he had developed a dependence. He immediately apologised to the person. We also worked closely with Pastor Brian to ensure he received professional help to eliminate his dependency on this medication, and this was achieved successfully.

To this former staff member, we again apologise and would welcome the opportunity to provide further assistance if this is needed.

The second issue involved a complaint received in 2019. Following an in-depth investigation, it was found that Pastor Brian became disoriented after a session at the Hillsong Conference, following the consumption of anti-anxiety medication beyond the prescribed dose, mixed with alcohol. This resulted in him knocking on the door of a hotel room that was not his, entering this room and spending time with the female occupant.

The investigation by the integrity unit appointed by the global board found that although all parts of the complaint were unable to be sustained, important elements of the complaint were sustained and the conduct was of serious concern. Ultimately, the board found that Brian had breached the Hillsong Pastor’s Code of Conduct.

We also acknowledge that whatever the circumstances at this time, this person did not deserve to be placed in the situation she found herself in by Pastor Brian.

We felt that we did all we could to assist the person who made the complaint and treated this person with compassion and respect, and also abided by her requirement for confidentiality.

The board also met a request for a refund of money donated to the church by this person, and agreed to that in order to bring resolution in a spirit of love and care. Pastor Brian was extremely remorseful and insisted on repaying the church for this.

We apologise unreservedly to the people affected by Pastor Brian’s actions and commit to being available for any further assistance we can provide.

Following that investigation, Pastor Brian agreed to take specific action including stepping down from leadership for a period. However unfortunately he failed to take all of the agreed steps which resulted in further action being taken by the board in late 2021. Pastor Brian remains on a period of leave.

The board has always endeavoured to act biblically and in accordance with good governance. However we understand that there has been a significant breach of trust. The board has been seeking external, wise counsel and is reviewing our governance structure and measures to ensure higher levels of accountability across Hillsong Church globally. Like many other churches of its size, Hillsong’s governance model has historically placed significant control in the hands of the senior pastor, but we recognise that the way we do things needs to be reviewed. We know there are areas on which we can improve, and we will work honestly and transparently to that end.

We are here for you, and as we work through this together we are available to help and offer you support. Our pastoral care team can be contacted through our church office at your location. We also believe this is a time to focus our attention on the God who restores and rebuilds, and encourage you to continue to meet together regularly not just on Sundays but in connect groups.

Our Interim Global Senior Pastors, Phil and Lucinda Dooley, are doing an amazing job under difficult circumstances. We want to thank them and ask you to keep praying for everyone involved and for our church.

We love you and thank you for your ongoing support.

Hillsong Global Board

The timeline in the communication is important

  1. 2009 or @10 years ago, Houston claimed he took sleeping pills and sent an inappropriate post which caused a staffer to resign. I’d love to take a look at that text.
  2. Houston got “professional” help for the “addiction” to the pills.
  3. Houston continued as pastor.
  4. 2019- Houston drank alcohol and took his anti-anxiety pills. He knocked on the hotel door of a staffer and went in for some time.
  5. The miffed-off staffer left the church, asking for all of her donated money to be returned.
  6. Houston agreed to take some unknown action.
  7. Houston didn’t take the unknown action.
  8. 2021- two flippin’ years later- the painfully slow and naive board took some unknown action, but by that time, Houston was in trouble over the claims he covered up church sex abuse committed by his father.

What does this tell me?

  1. The Board of Hillsong let Houston continue with leading the ministry because he was the rainmaker, after all.
  2. Houston had a long-term history of taking pills- sleeping, anti-anxiety, etc. He seemed to have no qualms in mixing them with alcohol. If this is true, he may have a long-term, multi-substance addiction history.
  3. Did Houston take those pills or mix them with alcohol? Were these excuses in order to communicate get close and personal with women?
  4. Why did both incidents involve him with women?
  5. Why did both women leave the church? One was so upset that she asked for all of her donations returned. That’s really, really, mad.
  6. Given these revelations, I would guess that there were more incidents involving pills, alcohol, and women. I wonder if any of them would be willing to come forward, even anonymously?

I remember Bill Hybels and the Ambien defense.

How many of you remember back to 2018 and all the revelations of Bill Hybels? Let’s deal with one which will forever be known as “The Ambien defense.” I wrote about here: Nancy Ortberg Claims She Endured an Unwanted Physical Encounter

Here are two instances discussed in that post. First, Nancy Ortberg related what happened in such a way that led me to believe that Hybels was using Ambien to give him cover.

My first international trip with Willow Creek as a staff member was to Tasmania. At the end of the three-day conference a small group of us joined Bill in his hotel room to celebrate a birthday and the conference. As we got up to leave at the end of the evening Bill said to me in front of the group,  “Nancy why don’t you stay for a couple of minutes for us to discuss your ministry work?” I immediately looked at the others for how I should respond and one of them smiled and said, “Okay, see you in the morning.”

Awkwardly I stayed and we talked for about twenty minutes. When I got up to leave Bill stopped me at the door and hugged/held me tightly for about thirty seconds. Stunned, I finally slipped my arms up between us and pushed him away. I went back to my hotel room and cried, not understanding what had just happened. Later I did not know how or who to talk to and began to second-guess and doubt myself as to its significance; that is, until years later when I began to hear stories of other similar encounters.

On a subsequent conference trip to Hawaii, I went running with Bill and he struck up a conversation about the amnesiac side effects of Ambien. Having been a nurse, I told him I found it rather odd that he was focusing on one of the more rare side effects, and that he brought it up to me at all. Again, I thought not much more of that conversation until years later when other stories emerged that included Ambien.

Secondly was Vonda Dyer’s experience with Ambien.

Bill called my hotel room in Sweden, in February of 1998, after a long conference day. I was in the bath and my roommate answered the phone. Bill asked her to have me call when I got out. I did, and he asked me to come up for a leadership talk, and told me to come alone. (My roommate confirmed with the Tribune) When I got to the room, Bill had wine opened and waiting. He told me to sit down and put my feet up. He told me he had taken Ambien. He then shared unfiltered thoughts about me, describing in great detail specific parts of my body he liked, and said he thought I was effusive, sexy and had great candor, mentioned what a promising leader I was, and he said,

Remember the Peeing pastor who dubiously claimed he didn’t do it and said he didn’t drink alcohol? He also said he took Ambien.

Todd documented that the “pastor” smelled of alcohol even though he denied drinking. Later, he claimed he took Ambien.

All the victims were women. Why?

Dee has a problem: Was it the Ambien or anti-anxiety drug, the sleeping pills, the alcohol, or the mixture of any of these substances that caused these men to do these things.

  • Why did the problems involve only women? One would think that Houston, for example, would have wandered into the room of a male staffer instead of a woman. It happened twice (at least that’s what was admitted), and both were women.
  • The peeing pastor peed on a woman.
  • Hybels only had encounters with women while “under the influence.”

Could Houston, Hybels, and the “peeing pastor” have lied?

Is it possible they didn’t take the pills/alcohol but said they did so to give them probable cover? I’m suspicious. For example, why didn’t one of them call his grandfather to discuss baseball or go to his refrigerator and eat a pound of ham? Instead, they went to hotel rooms of females or texted women inappropriately.

Hillsong is into restoration, forgetting about authentic restoration.

Think about what Hillsong neglected to mention. Houston was not excommunicated. He was not prevented from taking communion. Why in the world did Hillsong ignore these steps? Houston’s restoration should be the restoration to the Hillsong membership after being appropriately disciplined for his shameful actions against women.

Given the number of Hillsong pastors who have “done evil in the sight of the Lord,” I suspect that there is corruption throughout the entire Hillsong enterprise. Is there anyone who can restore this church group to the practice of Biblical values? I don’t think the current board would recognize a godly leader even if a voice spoke from heaven. It’s time for a thorough housecleaning but I don’t think it will happen.

Finally, how many more pastors will blame it “all on the pills?”

Comments

Brian Houston, Bill Hybels, and the Peeing Pastor Popped Pills While Drinking Alcohol. Why Did Their Subsequent Behavior Affect Only Women? — 60 Comments

  1. I think they all belong to big churches which give them a lot of power, like athletes who think the rules don’t apply to them and they can get away with bad things. Also that women must be attracted to them based on who they are.

  2. Why did their subsequent behavior affect only women?
    Because they’re happy horn-dogs who never progressed much beyond junior high with regard to human sexuality.
    Stuff that would simply not be tolerated in a secular workplace, somehow gets traction in fundagelical surroundings.

  3. dee,

    When you mention rainmaker in the post, it brings to mind that very popular Kamp Ka-make-a-buck guy who was kept on the payroll while he violated hundreds of boys ‘cuz … Rainmaker.

    No rainmaker left out … ‘cuz … Rainmaker.

    Someone didn’t read the memo: if “God’s work” is all about money, it us no longer God’s work.

  4. “ what a promising leader”
    I don’t recall whether this is the same woman Hybels told “You’re an type A leader. Your sorry excuse for a husband is just a type B leader!” (Paraphrased)
    Once I briefly conversed with the husband of the former employee/mistress/victim of a megapastor. When I discovered who he was the next day, I thought “He didn’t stand much of a chance… the other man was eloquent, rich, famous, — and Christian, too!”

  5. I draw my line at the arrogating term, pastor. There is only one Pastor, from the Latin for shepherd. He knows my name, and yours, and theirs. And He who knows your name does not need your phone number.

  6. d4v1d: He who knows your name does not need your phone number.

    Nor does this Shepherd need our pledge$, nor does He empty our pocketbook$. He never passed the plate, never took up a collection, no GoFundMe.

    There is a pastoring gift (nothing transactional about a gift) listed in Ephesians 4 but not in 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12. Not knowing Greek and Hebrew, I don’t know how it translates. Probably has to do with discipleship.

    I don’t know about you, but our experience with discipleship had nothing to do with payrolled pastors or cults of personality.

    My husband had a mentor here and there for a time. Bible study friends.

    I had some older mature women friends. Free. Available. Of service. Helpful. Titus 2. So there’s that.

    Pastoring perhaps with neither pay nor notoriety nor entitlement nor title nor recognition.

  7. The grammar and general sentence construction in that Hillsong statement leaves a lot to be desired. They should seek some “wise” tutoring.

  8. I personally believe that Brian Houston’s dodgy theology is enough reason to state that he is not qualified to be a pastor.

    Of course this is debatable for many who would disagree with me on theological issues. However, one of the qualifications for a pastor/elder is to not be a drunkard (1 Tim 3.3, Titus 1.7).

    The sin of being a drunkard involves drinking enough alcohol to lose control over your decision making. Car crashes and entering the hotel room of a person who is not your wife end up being the result of this.

    The Hillsong letter about Houston, if I recall, suggests that Houston has had problems with alcohol before, and that he chose not to follow up on his decision to go teetotal or a while.

    The Bible’s teaching on alcohol is simple: You can drink alcohol; you don’t have to drink alcohol if you don’t want to; but if you do, you should not get drunk.

    Of course, in Houston’s case, his problem with alcohol may be minor problem compared to his other actions (in this case, towards women). It is, however, a red flag that probably indicates a deeper problem with his spiritual life.

  9. I’ve been on Ambien and it’s left me spacey. But I haven’t been so spacey that I walked into someone’s room on accident and proceeded to talk with them for forty minutes about inappropriate stuff!

  10. Sooo … let me see if I got this right. Brother Houston, drugged and drunk, randomly knocked on the door of a female hotel guest … and she let him in?!!

  11. “Nancy why don’t you stay for a couple of minutes for us to discuss your ministry work?” as Bill Hybels puffs his cigar and fiddles with his mustache (aka Groucho Marx). He wasn’t under the influence too much to come up with that line!

  12. Most people, when hearing or reading of the side effects of Ambien or similar medication, take note and file it away as “Don’t take unless really necessary! Also, if necessary, be extra cautious! No mixing with alcohol!”

    Some “pastors” seem to file it away under “Interesting! This might come in really useful for plausible deniability one day.”

  13. “the entire Hillsong enterprise” …

    … would be but a mere blip on the radar if it weren’t for Darlene Zschech, ex-Hillsong Worship Pastor. Her music propelled Hillsong onto an international stage. Houston’s sermons weren’t all that.

  14. Gus: side effects of Ambien … be extra cautious! No mixing with alcohol! … Some “pastors” seem to file it away under “Interesting! This might come in really useful for plausible deniability one day.”

    Yep, for those ‘men of God” plagued with “lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride” it’s in their back pocket to retrieve quickly when needed.

    “… lust and sensual craving of the flesh and the lust and longing of the eyes and the boastful pride of life [pretentious confidence in one’s resources or in the stability of earthly things] — these do not come from the Father, but are from the world” (1 John 2:16 AMP)

  15. Tina: I’ve been on Ambien and it’s left me spacey. But I haven’t been so spacey that I walked into someone’s room on accident …

    The CEO at a former company I worked for suggested that I consider taking Ambien to help me rest when on long, weary business trips as an environmental consultant. Whew! I’m glad I just toughed it out on coffee! I would have hated to have in my memory that I chased women, wandered around hotels out of my mind, and urinated on airline passengers!

  16. Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight): one of the qualifications for a pastor/elder is to not be a drunkard

    You know this is the thing that gets me on all these fellows. Their ministry boards apparently weren’t too concerned that “Pastor” had a problem with alcohol, as long as they didn’t embarrass the organization by having affairs, peeing on airline passengers, and other such transgressions.

  17. Ava, d4v1d, the whole pastor schtick is a toughie for me also. I grew up and lived many years as an adult in an area where churches were composed of people who united together to share salvation with the lost. We hired a preacher to fill the pulpit, usually a supply preacher. One of them decided our measly little amount for one service a week showed him we were in need of a volunteer. We paid his gas money for Sunday mornings, and he made about 140 more miles to and from Wednesday night and Sunday night for free. Jesus was head of our church, and we held monthly business meetings where all members could vote and lead. When it came to what today passes as pastoring or shepherding, meaning being there for the other person, caring, hospital visits, home visits, etc were the job of the church on a volunteer basis. If I knew your husband was branding I would show up to help cook, my husband to help brand. When I had a baby an older couple in the church took care of my older child, reached out to “wait” with my mom, and everyone brought food etc, threw a nice shower, and in general took care of us as family. We would return the favor when opportunity arose. When the church functions as a healthy church, it works.

    When the pew sitters just want to throw some $$ in the plate and expect cradle to grave coddling and spoon feeding, not so much.

  18. Muff Potter: Because they’re happy horn-dogs who never progressed much beyond junior high with regard to human sexuality.
    Stuff that would simply not be tolerated in a secular workplace, somehow gets traction in fundagelical surroundings.

    AMerican Real True Christianity(TM) tends to produce a LOT of arrested-development cases.
    Especially in regards to Pelvic Issues.
    (Remember Bill Got Hard?)

  19. Max,

    I suspect another factor in play is Christians’ insistence on “Dry” and The Secret Sip. (Remember who were the biggest boosters of Prohibition.) And they have to hide it, especially if they are a “Professional Christian” like both Pastor P and Pastor Pee. Gets the Christian who drinks used to drinking alone in secret and hiding it, which does not bode well.

    “Drink because you are happy, but never because you are miserable. Never drink when you are wretched without it, or you will be like the grey-faced gin-drinker in the slum; but drink when you would be happy without it, and you will be like the laughing peasant of Italy. Never drink because you need it, for this is rational drinking, and the way to death and hell. But drink because you do not need it, for this is irrational drinking, and the ancient health of the world.”
    — G.K.Chesterton

  20. What is it with pastors mixing drugs and alcohol these days?

    One of the pastors with whom I had contact was doing the whole alcohol+sleeping pills thing, too. Then, he blamed his inappropriate actions on the combo – that he took.

  21. “Was it the Ambien or anti-anxiety drug, the sleeping pills, the alcohol, or the mixture of any of these substances that caused these men to do these things.

    Why did the problems involve only women?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    the incessant obsession with sex in abrahamic religions, and religions in general.

    …i’d say it’s a large factor.

    it’s as natural as sneezing.

    just as sneezing has some good protocols in place (turning your head away, etc), so does sex.

    christianity’s obsession resembles kids hammered with guilt over sneezing and dire pressure not to sneeze…

    they’re either terrified or entitled to rebel, so they sneeze all the louder, in public or private.

    just one of the neuroses christianity produces in people.

    …noting that christianity at all points in time is what people make of it.

  22. It annoys me that these guys don’t follow the instructions on the label and avoid alcohol if they’re going to take sleeping pills. In my personal opinion, I think the prescription sleeping aids/alcohol combination are doing heavy work covering for Pastors Acting Badly. FTR, there are many prescription/alcohol combinations that are big no-nos. As for me, due to gastric issues, I now have to avoid alcohol, coffee, other caffeinated drinks, carbonated drinks, acidic, fatty and fried foods. Oh, and chocolate. *sigh* But I did have a big bowl of fresh strawberries over at my mother’s yesterday and that was great!

  23. Micah: One of the pastors with whom I had contact was doing the whole alcohol+sleeping pills thing, too. Then, he blamed his inappropriate actions on the combo – that he took.

    Ahhh … “The Hybels Scheme” is catching on!

  24. Max: Poor Jerry Falwell Sr. had to rely on NyQuil.

    I’m surprised Falwell Sr had a liver left.

    NyQuil contains Acetaminophen, which is toxic to the liver in overdoses. A bottle of Tylenol tabs contains enough to destroy the liver completely, causing irreversible liver failure and death in 1-2 weeks. There’s a reason Tylenol & NyQuil have warning labels to not use more than X a day.

    Even the old Army barracks rat trick of drinking mouthwash is safer.
    Never mind the Russian Army trick of drinking (alcohol-based) hydraulic fluid or filtering the alcohol solvent out of shoe polish is safer. (As well as more desperate.)

  25. Micah: One of the pastors with whom I had contact was doing the whole alcohol+sleeping pills thing, too.

    One day he’s going to hit the right combination and join Bo & Peep behind Hale-Bopp.

  26. elastigirl: the incessant obsession with sex in abrahamic religions, and religions in general.

    Christians are as screwed up sexually as anyone else, they just show it in the opposite direction.

  27. Why Did Their Subsequent Behavior Affect Only Women?

    Because that combination turns off any inhibitions and/or impulse control. And as stated above, they were horndogs. Supercharged by ego, position, and power.

    Like Mel Gibson’s Most Embarrassing Moment in the back of that cop car, they leaned that way anyway but were usually able to maintain. They were already all wound up; booze & pills just turned off their impulse control and let it go.

  28. Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight): Peter 5.2: “Be shepherds of God’s flock under your care”.

    poimainó / ποιμαίνω

    “Under your care, meaning … ?”

    Pastor takes care of what … your wallet? mental health? wife? safety? restoration?

    Policing? Enabling? Disciplining? Encouraging? Commanding?

    If church participants had access to the other 17 HS endowed spiritual gifts like they do to pastors, there would be enormous potential. 1 Cor 12, Rom 12, Eph 4.

    A social worker noted that when a voluntary homeless camp springs up, it begins with community and positivity. But then an alpha male emerges, takes over, and runs it with drug and sex trades flourishing. EVERY TIME. He saw the potential. His way.

  29. Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight): The use of the word “pastor” to describe a church leader is consistent with 1 Peter 5.2: “Be shepherds of God’s flock under your care”.

    Whew! If you can find a church with a pastor like that in the 21st century American church, get in it and support it!

  30. Interesting Hybels mentioned the Ambien right before he made his move on women. As if he was preparing an excuse in advance. Or it appears that way. Leads one to speculate if he really took it.

  31. “Brian Houston, Bill Hybels, and the Peeing Pastor Popped Pills While Drinking Alcohol. Why Did Their Subsequent Behavior Affect Only Women?”

    They’re predators* and women are their prey.

    *Predators weaponized with their brand of “faith” – the belief that they are entitled.

  32. The other convicting truth about Ambien is it is only supposed to be taken when you are actually going to bed to sleep. If they actually took it, they are clearly and intentionally misusing it by not going straight to bed, lights out.

  33. that ‘Ambien’ is used by these men to ‘excuse’ their abuses towards women means that they KNOW that taking the Ambien ‘socially’ (?) is ‘an occasion of sin’ itself . . . they use it to free their inhibitions, hence the ‘unfiltered’ language and behaviors towards women, and THEN they use it as ‘the excuse’ for that transgression on the dignity of persons who happen to be female

    why only ‘female’ victims?

    My first thought was that IF it was a REAL excuse, and they tried even the half of the garbage on a male victim, they would have their clocks cleaned really fast AND THEY KNOW IT

    lascivious bullies, thinking they can ‘rationalize’ bad behaviors by putting the blame on a pill,
    but they chose to TAKE the pill
    and THEN they wanted to ‘have some fun’ on the down-low

    Thank God women are speaking up. Someday, to even Piper’s disgust, our daughters will be more physically able to clean the clocks of these jerks by taking responsibility for their own protection – (my own daughter took karate lessons for years, but then again, we lived in deepest New Jersey . . . she may not have been muscle-bound, and she did wear ‘cute shoes’ and modeled hair styles, but I can’t think of anyone who would get away with harassing HER, nope! It would over really fast.)

    times are changing 🙂

    some thoughts . . .

  34. I suspect that they all took what ever substances they said but that is an excuse. They did these things. They are responsible. I also suspect that many men were mistreated by an abuse of Pastoral power as well. In these cultures everyone is silenced and everyone normalizes this behaviour. The lack of accountability, sense of entitlement (founders syndrome) and the same drive that maybe made them successful also ran over other people. So much to learn about leadership for anyone in leadership.

  35. SarahM: If they actually took it, they are clearly and intentionally misusing it by not going straight to bed, lights out.

    Was it Hybels who took it and then requested a meeting with a woman colleague in his hotel room, … at night, the two alone, in a bedroom or bedroom suite, after he took the drug? How is this not like Harvey Weinstein?

  36. Todd Wilhelm,

    On twitter, discipline of these wayward or even predatory pastors is mentioned. Don’t attend their church (don’t buy their books or attend their conferences) is one way “the rest of us” can exercise discipline.

    And warn others. Public figures seek and receive public attention.

  37. Brian Houston and Prophet Vithoulkas, both are of the NAR/Latter Rain movement. Could their positions as “anointed ones” have allowed them to get away with things over time?

  38. Houston, Hybels, the Peeing Pastor and a host of other fallen “pastors” have given a lost world another excuse to say “See, there is nothing to it.”

    And whose plan would that be? Whose “ministry” were these bad boys engaged in really? (1 Peter 5:8)

  39. Dee said,
    “My father had an elderly lady patient who used to buy cases of vanilla to drink.She claimed she was not an alcoholic.”

    Dee, the little old lady who used to live next door to me (wife of my 1st cousin twice removed) would order checkerberry extract by the case. When Harry picked it up at the store he’d explain that Ida did a lot of baking.

  40. Why were millions drawn to the Hillsong model for doing church? Jeremiah provides a simple answer: “My people love it so” (Jeremiah 5:31)

    Why were millions drawn to the Willowcreek model for doing church? Same answer.

    Both were effective models which based their success on giving “worshipers” what they want. Christianity Lite and cheap grace will always attract a crowd. When they implode, followers are left confused and disillusioned. Whose plan would that be?

  41. Max: Poor Jerry Falwell Sr. had to rely on NyQuil.

    Yeah, from back in the day when NyQuil was 40 proof alcohol. Seriously, it was 20 percent and BOY was I surprised when I found out!

  42. Max: Additional Hillsong fall out:

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/hillsong-atlanta-pastor-announces-resignation.html

    It’s not just a resignation, it’s a “I’m taking the church with me too.” The pastor of the local Hillsong (2 miles west of my house) preached last Sunday about how Brian Houston lied to him about what was going on. If it weren’t for the fact that the US branch of Hillsong College is run out of his facility, and the property for the three Hillsong outfits here in the Phoenix area have been conveyed over to an LLC with unclear ownership in 2019, I bet he’d be out as well. (Can I just snark on the fact that the property down the street from me has an assessed cash value of $20 million? And it’s all off the books? And I pay more property taxes than these guys do? Ok, done.)

  43. Max,

    Religion and politics have orgs that recruit members.

    The Franklin Credit Union political scandal of Omaha was an example of going to the Dark Side to recruit big names, big money. The efforts appealed to the most base, the lowest, of all human desires.

    It seems some churches have the same schemes. Even the posts about MacArthur make one wonder what male desires they are appealing to when a man can treat his wife disrespectfully with the encouragement of the pastor.

    Jesus’ recruitment of followers, OTOH, was for a higher calling.

  44. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s not just a resignation, it’s a “I’m taking the church with me too.” The pastor of the local Hillsong (2 miles west of my house) preached last Sunday about how Brian Houston lied to him about what was going on.

    It’s scramble time on the Hillsong planet! The satellite churches are trying survive. “I didn’t know!” will ring across the organization. IMO, they all knew about Houston’s transgressions. They will now distance themselves from Houston and follow the regular routine when idols fall … “Driscoll who?” … “Hybels who?” … “MacDonald who?” … “Tullian who?” … “Ravi who?” etc. etc. … and now “Houston who?” In the meantime, all their followers boohoo.

  45. Ava Aaronson: Religion and politics have orgs that recruit members … appealed to the most base, the lowest, of all human desires

    “Christianity” in America has become a smorgasbord. It’s easy for anyone to find a minister and ministry which appeal to their idea of what church should be. The flavors range from cold and stale (think MacArthur) to hot and vibrant (think Hillsong). Depending on what you want, you can sit in a pew and be bored to death or hop to the beat of the drums … whatever you want is out there. Instead of exploring Scripture to find out what church is and what church isn’t, folks just pick an expression of faith off the counter and put it on their tray. At the end of the line, you pay for what you get. In the meantime, Jesus seeks residence elsewhere and the Great Commission is taken to the end of the world by a faithful few.

  46. Until the Body of Christ seeks godly men to fill the pulpit … with more character and less charisma … more humility and less celebrity … mega-mania and mega-maniacs will continue to take the church for a ride.

  47. Max: “Driscoll who?” … “Hybels who?” … “MacDonald who?” … “Tullian who?” … “Ravi who?” etc. etc. … and now “Houston who?”

    doubleplusunpersons who as of now Never Existed.